1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When I told the editor of this show that 2 00:00:22,876 --> 00:00:27,716 Speaker 1: I was thinking of doing an episode about elevators, she said, why, 3 00:00:28,916 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: which fair question. It's a little bit different than what 4 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: we usually do on the show. But the elevator is 5 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:42,556 Speaker 1: this little box that's full of interesting ideas about technology 6 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 1: and design and innovation and human behavior. The elevator made 7 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 1: the modern city possible. No elevators, no skyscrapers, and today 8 00:00:52,916 --> 00:00:56,196 Speaker 1: people are working on entirely new kinds of elevators that 9 00:00:56,236 --> 00:00:59,356 Speaker 1: can go higher and faster than ever, and that can 10 00:00:59,396 --> 00:01:01,956 Speaker 1: also not only go up and down, but can also 11 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:11,636 Speaker 1: go sideways. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. 12 00:01:11,876 --> 00:01:15,236 Speaker 1: My guest today is Lee Gray. He's a professor of 13 00:01:15,356 --> 00:01:19,396 Speaker 1: architectural history at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, 14 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: and as far as we can tell, he's the world's 15 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 1: leading historian of the elevator. I started the conversation with 16 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 1: Lee in the same place that people always start the 17 00:01:31,556 --> 00:01:36,236 Speaker 1: story of the modern elevator. New York City, eighteen fifty three, 18 00:01:36,716 --> 00:01:41,116 Speaker 1: when an engineer and inventor named Elijah Otis stood on 19 00:01:41,196 --> 00:01:44,836 Speaker 1: an open elevator platform in front of a crowd. A 20 00:01:44,956 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 1: rope hoisted the elevator high up into the air, so 21 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:50,836 Speaker 1: Otis was sort of dangling there in front of the crowd. 22 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:55,036 Speaker 1: And then a guy Otis had hired took an axe 23 00:01:55,436 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 1: and cut the rope that held the elevator up. The 24 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 1: elevator fell a couple feet and then it stopped. The 25 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 1: safety break that Otis had invented worked perfectly. He called 26 00:02:07,076 --> 00:02:12,196 Speaker 1: out all safe, and the crowd, one imagines went wild. 27 00:02:13,196 --> 00:02:16,516 Speaker 1: Lee kind of sighed frankly when I brought this story up, 28 00:02:16,836 --> 00:02:20,356 Speaker 1: and he told me, yes, that story is true as 29 00:02:20,356 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 1: far as it goes, but it's incomplete, and it's incomplete 30 00:02:24,036 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: in the way that stories about lone inventors and Eureka 31 00:02:26,916 --> 00:02:29,116 Speaker 1: moments are almost always incomplete. 32 00:02:29,836 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 2: A critical part of the story that's often omitted is 33 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 2: this was designed for a freight elevator. When he demonstrates 34 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,596 Speaker 2: his safety, there is no such thing as a passenger 35 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 2: elevator as we know it today. That hasn't been imagined yet. 36 00:02:43,436 --> 00:02:46,516 Speaker 2: It was literally an open platform. There was no car, 37 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 2: there were no walls, no, there was no enclosure on it. 38 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,956 Speaker 2: So it was it was yes, very clever and much 39 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:59,236 Speaker 2: needed safety device, but for a much different problem than 40 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 2: that of a passenger elevator. The safety was designed that 41 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 2: it was held in place by a spring, and the 42 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:09,956 Speaker 2: weight of the platform held the spring in place when 43 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 2: it was attached to the hoisting rope. When the hoisting 44 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:17,636 Speaker 2: rope broke, the spring then pushed down and then from 45 00:03:17,676 --> 00:03:22,076 Speaker 2: the car pushed out two iron bars that engaged the 46 00:03:22,156 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 2: teeth of the guide rails. And the minute they hit 47 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:27,996 Speaker 2: the teeth, the platform stopped moving. 48 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:32,196 Speaker 1: So it's essentially an emergency brake that designed to activate 49 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:33,476 Speaker 1: if the rope should break. 50 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 2: Yes, that's that's a that's a very good analogy. 51 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 1: So okay, Elijah Otis invented this safety break for the 52 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: industrial elevator and that is in fact the same Otis 53 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:48,396 Speaker 1: who is tied to the Otis Elevator company today. You 54 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:51,436 Speaker 1: know we should mention, but now in our story we 55 00:03:51,556 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 1: need someone to come along and invent the passenger elevator, 56 00:03:55,516 --> 00:03:58,156 Speaker 1: this thing we know as the elevator. Tell me about 57 00:03:58,196 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 1: that part. 58 00:03:59,276 --> 00:04:03,516 Speaker 2: The first person that I am aware of to conceptualize 59 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 2: and articulate the modern passenger elevator. This is where it 60 00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 2: gets complicated because for his first name was Otis, last 61 00:04:12,316 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 2: name Tuffts. 62 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 1: That's so complicated we can call him Tufts, and the 63 00:04:15,556 --> 00:04:16,836 Speaker 1: other guy otis yeah right. 64 00:04:16,916 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 2: So the Boston Boston engineer Tuffts patents in eighteen fifty 65 00:04:23,236 --> 00:04:29,116 Speaker 2: nine an elevator, an elevator specifically designed for passengers, with 66 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 2: an enclosed car to protect the passengers, automatically operating doors 67 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:39,716 Speaker 2: not quite sure how well they worked, and the idea 68 00:04:39,836 --> 00:04:42,996 Speaker 2: of an operator there to run the elevator for the passengers. 69 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:46,116 Speaker 2: But it was also a very specific conception of an 70 00:04:46,116 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 2: elevator car because it was designed for use in the 71 00:04:49,236 --> 00:04:51,836 Speaker 2: Fifth Avenue Hotel in New York, which was one of 72 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:56,076 Speaker 2: these grand urban hotels. So the elevator car included benches 73 00:04:56,116 --> 00:04:59,076 Speaker 2: for the passengers they could sit down and relax before 74 00:04:59,116 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 2: the car moved, and so Tufts very clearly articulated for 75 00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:06,236 Speaker 2: the first time, here are all the components of a 76 00:05:06,276 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 2: passenger elevator. What he also did was proposed a technological 77 00:05:10,876 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: solution that really didn't make much sense because it was 78 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,796 Speaker 2: so expensive. Because he said, well, you know, the problem 79 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:20,356 Speaker 2: with elevators is the cable's going to break and the 80 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 2: elevator car will fall down. So we got rid of 81 00:05:22,716 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 2: the cable. And what he proposed and in fact did 82 00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 2: in the Fifth Avenue hotel Is. He constructed this massive 83 00:05:29,436 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 2: vertical screw for lack of a better definition, that ran 84 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:35,516 Speaker 2: from the basement to the top of the building. The 85 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:38,276 Speaker 2: elevator cars attached to the screw like a nut on 86 00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 2: a bolt. The screw turns, the elevator car rises, and 87 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:45,836 Speaker 2: it goes up and goes down very very slowly. It 88 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 2: was insanely complicated from a technological solution that made no sense. 89 00:05:50,516 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 2: Only two of these were ever built. So this is 90 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:56,756 Speaker 2: an example of he got all of what we won 91 00:05:56,836 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 2: in a passenger elevator in terms of its concept. He 92 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 2: just got the technology really really wrong. But he established 93 00:06:04,156 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 2: the paradigm that others Otis among them picked up and said, ah, okay, 94 00:06:09,276 --> 00:06:12,196 Speaker 2: now we know what you know. The difference between a 95 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:14,836 Speaker 2: freight elevator and a passenger elevator, a lot of it 96 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 2: is the car to keep passengers safe. 97 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 1: So we want Toff's box toughs room that goes up 98 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:25,876 Speaker 1: and down, and we want Otis's safety mechanism basically like 99 00:06:25,916 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 1: it seems like the combination of those two is what 100 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: gives us in the middle of the eighteen hundreds, the 101 00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:35,076 Speaker 1: passenger elevator that is not so different as we know it. 102 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:39,196 Speaker 2: Today, right, Yes, in terms of many many of its 103 00:06:39,236 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 2: fundamental features and the concern for safety that otis expressed 104 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:48,676 Speaker 2: with this freight elevator. That is one constant that the 105 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:52,436 Speaker 2: elevator industry has never lost sight of and is always 106 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 2: at the forefront of everything they do. 107 00:06:55,436 --> 00:06:59,636 Speaker 1: So we have this elevator that is Tough's box plus 108 00:06:59,676 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: Otis's safety device basically, right. And so you have this 109 00:07:03,276 --> 00:07:11,836 Speaker 1: moment in the eighteen hundreds when elevators and skyscrapers are 110 00:07:11,996 --> 00:07:14,796 Speaker 1: kind of emerging into the world together, right, And this 111 00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: is a really elegant interesting story. So can you just 112 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: talk about the relationship between the elevator as this innovation 113 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: and the skyscraper as this related innovation. How do they 114 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 1: sort of co evolve? 115 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:34,076 Speaker 2: So the very quickly leading into that when throughout throughout 116 00:07:34,116 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 2: the eighteen sixties we only find passenger elevators in large 117 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 2: German hotels or very posh department stores. It's a luxury item, 118 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:47,996 Speaker 2: not predicated on speed, predicated on I enter, I have 119 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 2: a seat on a cushioned seat. There's mirrors in the car, 120 00:07:51,156 --> 00:07:54,396 Speaker 2: the gash chandeliers. This is elegant little room that takes 121 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 2: me very slowly to my destination because it's about luxury, 122 00:07:57,956 --> 00:07:58,956 Speaker 2: it's not about speed. 123 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: Is it also sort of about technology? Is it about 124 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: like I am rich and I'm experiencing the modern marvels 125 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 1: of my age. 126 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,236 Speaker 2: In to us, that's that's a very good point. In 127 00:08:12,276 --> 00:08:15,676 Speaker 2: the urban large urban hotel, they were known for having 128 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:20,076 Speaker 2: all of the latest technological amenities. So in that sense, yes, 129 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 2: you know, this is this is this this powerful new technology. 130 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:27,396 Speaker 2: But the critical thing I think is is it's not 131 00:08:27,476 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 2: about speed, It's about luxury. When it makes the jump 132 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 2: into the first tall office buildings in the eighteen seventies, 133 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 2: beginning in eighteen seventy, In fact, that's when the idea 134 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:45,836 Speaker 2: of speed suddenly gets introduced because every business person recognizes, well, 135 00:08:45,876 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to, you know, go into 136 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:50,836 Speaker 2: a seven story office building and go in and have 137 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:52,956 Speaker 2: a seat and sit down, and it takes me forever 138 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:55,036 Speaker 2: to get upstairs when I could walk up the stairs 139 00:08:55,076 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: more quickly. The whole point of this technology is to 140 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:02,836 Speaker 2: move me more quickly. And so as the skyscraper moves 141 00:09:02,916 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 2: through the nineteenth century, one way to describe it is, 142 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 2: I mean we always hear the passenger elevator makes the 143 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:16,796 Speaker 2: skyscraper possible. True. Also, the desire to have a skyscraper 144 00:09:17,196 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 2: made the modern elevator possible. I need both because I 145 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,116 Speaker 2: look at the first elevators steam powered, they could go 146 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 2: seven eight floors without too much trouble, and there's a 147 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 2: desire to build taller buildings. Then hydraulic elevators come into 148 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 2: play of specific designs that can easily do ten, fifteen, 149 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five stories. Then we get to the close 150 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:41,996 Speaker 2: of the nineteenth century, I want to go higher. Still, 151 00:09:42,356 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 2: I need a different technology than the electric traction elevator 152 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:48,596 Speaker 2: is developed. So in each of those phases, it's a 153 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:52,316 Speaker 2: question of, well, did the elevator technology drive the height 154 00:09:52,716 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 2: or did the desire to go taller drive the technology. 155 00:09:57,076 --> 00:10:00,556 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like the first enabling idea you 156 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:03,836 Speaker 1: need is just the idea of an elevator, right Like, 157 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:07,556 Speaker 1: until you have the idea of an elevator, nobody's going 158 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: to say, can you get me a better elevator? Right 159 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:12,596 Speaker 1: that people are just going to assume that the height 160 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: of a building is constrained by the number of flights 161 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:16,196 Speaker 1: of steps people will walk. 162 00:10:16,116 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 2: Up right right, true, And that's that's and that's a 163 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 2: very good point. Yes. Once the idea is there, then 164 00:10:23,276 --> 00:10:26,436 Speaker 2: it's it's really interesting how how it is considered. 165 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,276 Speaker 1: Then it's like, well, surely if you could take me 166 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,476 Speaker 1: up seven floors, you could take me up another seven 167 00:10:31,556 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 1: floors and another seven and so what like by say 168 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred, by the early nineteen hundreds, How tall are buildings? 169 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:45,876 Speaker 2: Oh? In New York? That's a good question. 170 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:48,276 Speaker 1: I mean, the Woolworth Building is the one I always 171 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 1: think of. I was looking at that one up. I 172 00:10:49,476 --> 00:10:52,556 Speaker 1: think it's on the order of sixty stories, like very 173 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:55,636 Speaker 1: tall even today, not the tallest, but like you look 174 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 1: at that building today and you're not like, oh, that's 175 00:10:57,276 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 1: a tiny little building. Like that's a big building. Nobody's 176 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: going to walk up all those steps, and it does 177 00:11:03,956 --> 00:11:08,596 Speaker 1: seem it does seem like I understand that with your knowledge, 178 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 1: you don't it as this one kind of step function change. 179 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: There was like a really slow elevator that was like 180 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 1: a luxury box to be fancy and take you up 181 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: six stories, and then there was a better one that 182 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:22,036 Speaker 1: could do twenty. But in a relatively short period of 183 00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 1: time we go from I don't know how tall were 184 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:27,116 Speaker 1: tall buildings before elevator six stories seven. 185 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:32,276 Speaker 2: Stories five is five to maybe six, and of course 186 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 2: the top floor was the cheapest to rent. 187 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:37,996 Speaker 1: Right, right, there's also that, right because you have to 188 00:11:37,996 --> 00:11:39,796 Speaker 1: slap up all the steps, and so if you can 189 00:11:39,836 --> 00:11:42,356 Speaker 1: afford it, you live on the ground, and that's going 190 00:11:42,356 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: to get inverted, which is fun. Right, if you're rich, 191 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:46,956 Speaker 1: you get to live up top. But there is this, 192 00:11:47,436 --> 00:11:50,396 Speaker 1: at least at our distance, this change. Right, you go 193 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:54,356 Speaker 1: from eighteen fifty no elevator, a tall building is six stories. 194 00:11:54,676 --> 00:11:59,796 Speaker 1: By the early nineteen hundreds, elevators are quite good and safe, 195 00:12:00,076 --> 00:12:02,236 Speaker 1: and you've gone up in the height of buildings by 196 00:12:02,516 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: ten x. Right, you've gone up to buildings of something 197 00:12:05,196 --> 00:12:09,316 Speaker 1: like sixty stories, and you have what looks like a 198 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 1: modern city. Like, yes, it's not glass and steel yet, 199 00:12:12,156 --> 00:12:15,076 Speaker 1: and it's not as tall, but it's the basic idea 200 00:12:15,116 --> 00:12:20,236 Speaker 1: of say Manhattan, to pick one is in place. And 201 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 1: we did not have another step function of that magnitude. Right, 202 00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: We went from six to sixty in that fifty ish years. 203 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:33,396 Speaker 1: We didn't go from sixty to six hundred. We're not 204 00:12:33,436 --> 00:12:35,436 Speaker 1: even close. Right, The tallest buildings in the world now 205 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: are one hundred in some stories. And that's interesting to me. 206 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: I mean I feel like the biggest move was that 207 00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: first one. Do you buy it? 208 00:12:45,996 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think that's a very good observation, observation, 209 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 2: And but what that also speaks to is the electric 210 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 2: traction elevator, perfected in the first couple of decades of 211 00:12:57,756 --> 00:13:04,396 Speaker 2: the twentieth century, remains the dominant elevator type. What everyone 212 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 2: is waiting on is a cableless elevator, possibly by maglev 213 00:13:10,036 --> 00:13:15,596 Speaker 2: technology or something very similar. And because right now we're 214 00:13:15,636 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 2: limited by the length and actually weight of the steel cables. 215 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 2: Once we get rid of the cables and we can 216 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:28,676 Speaker 2: do it with the same speed and efficiency of the 217 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 2: current traction elevator, that's the next jump, where suddenly one 218 00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:36,476 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty two hundred stories, if we wanted to, 219 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 2: would be possible. 220 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 1: I want to talk more about that, but there's a 221 00:13:44,556 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 1: few things I want to discuss first. So there are 222 00:13:47,596 --> 00:13:51,156 Speaker 1: a few things that have happened obviously in elevators in 223 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:54,476 Speaker 1: the last one hundred years. One of them that is 224 00:13:54,516 --> 00:14:01,836 Speaker 1: interesting to me is the advent of what today we 225 00:14:01,916 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 1: might call the driverless car elevator, the driverless elevator car. 226 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 1: Let's say, right in this era, when we've keep feeling like, 227 00:14:10,796 --> 00:14:13,196 Speaker 1: maybe we're about to get to driverless cars, but everybody's 228 00:14:13,236 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 1: really nervous about it. There is this interesting moment when 229 00:14:15,796 --> 00:14:18,796 Speaker 1: that happens with elevators. Tell me about the advent of 230 00:14:18,836 --> 00:14:20,356 Speaker 1: the driverless elevator car. 231 00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 2: Okay, and that is a critical pivot point that occurs 232 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:30,116 Speaker 2: in the nineteen fifties. So prior to the what the 233 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 2: industry called the operator less elevator or driverless elevator, if 234 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:38,716 Speaker 2: you will, all elevators had operators, even ones with push 235 00:14:38,716 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 2: buttons that you know, you or I could have walked 236 00:14:41,476 --> 00:14:45,196 Speaker 2: in and pushed a button. The reason the operator remains 237 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:48,316 Speaker 2: in the car until the nineteen fifties is it has 238 00:14:48,356 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 2: to do with traffic control. So in a large building, 239 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 2: let's say the building has twenty elevators, it's a forty 240 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 2: story building, and ten elevators, you know, serve half the 241 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:03,396 Speaker 2: floor's tens or the other half. Elevator traffic control was 242 00:15:03,476 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 2: conducted and organized by an individual called a starter. He 243 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 2: was charged with organizing the elevator operators and at least 244 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 2: and at the beginning of the day and throughout the 245 00:15:14,396 --> 00:15:18,596 Speaker 2: day as needed, giving them a sign, either a literal 246 00:15:18,676 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 2: sign by pointing at them or by pushing a button 247 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:24,476 Speaker 2: that would activate a light in their car, of controlling 248 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,516 Speaker 2: elevator traffic in the building so that it met the 249 00:15:27,556 --> 00:15:28,356 Speaker 2: needs of the building. 250 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 1: We get everybody up like a like a taxi dispatcher. 251 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:35,116 Speaker 2: That's that's a that's a very good analogy. And we're 252 00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:38,436 Speaker 2: dependent on the human brain to do that until we 253 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:41,076 Speaker 2: get to the early nineteen fifties when we get the 254 00:15:41,116 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 2: first automated systems that will manage that you can, for 255 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 2: lack of a better word, program into preset programs so 256 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:53,076 Speaker 2: that the elevators automatically do what we want them to do. 257 00:15:53,396 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 2: And as soon as I can do that reliably, reliably, 258 00:15:57,036 --> 00:15:59,916 Speaker 2: I don't need the operator anymore, and therefore I can 259 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:04,156 Speaker 2: get rid of them because I've literally automated the movement 260 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:05,516 Speaker 2: of elevators. 261 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 1: Well, so this is the like real estate point of view, 262 00:16:08,476 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 1: in the elevator point of view, what is the elevator 263 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 1: rider the civilian point of view on this shift toward 264 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 1: automated elevators, like, were people scared? Were they not scared? 265 00:16:21,716 --> 00:16:21,796 Speaker 3: So? 266 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 2: Lever House in New York City, one of the first 267 00:16:24,956 --> 00:16:27,796 Speaker 2: all glass skyscrapers, was one of the first buildings to 268 00:16:27,876 --> 00:16:33,636 Speaker 2: have fully automated elevators, no operators. There are documented stories 269 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 2: of when the building opened, everybody was really excited this 270 00:16:37,236 --> 00:16:41,276 Speaker 2: new modern building, of users going in the building, stepping 271 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:43,796 Speaker 2: into the elevator car and stepping right back out, saying, 272 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:46,516 Speaker 2: where's the guy who's supposed to run this? Because they 273 00:16:46,516 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 2: were they were clearly disconcerted that so there's no one here. 274 00:16:50,916 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 2: I am on my own, and I mean people got 275 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:57,236 Speaker 2: over that pretty quickly, but there was a moment where 276 00:16:57,236 --> 00:16:58,436 Speaker 2: it's like, well, wait a minute. 277 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:02,436 Speaker 3: I I pushed the button really all by myself, huh, 278 00:17:02,476 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 3: And I mean it didn't take long, but there was 279 00:17:05,636 --> 00:17:08,236 Speaker 3: a there was a learning curve because it was such 280 00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:10,436 Speaker 3: an expected part of the experience. 281 00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 2: There's this uniformed person there who all I have to 282 00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:16,396 Speaker 2: do is say five please, and they take care of 283 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 2: it for me. 284 00:17:18,556 --> 00:17:22,636 Speaker 1: Are there any lessons from that transition to driverless elevator 285 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:26,596 Speaker 1: cars that might be useful for the transition to driverless cars, 286 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 1: Like did they change the user interface at all? Did 287 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:33,116 Speaker 1: they add any buttons to try and make people feel better? 288 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 2: I am not aware of any of any change in buttons, 289 00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:40,236 Speaker 2: but you did make me think of something that I 290 00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:42,796 Speaker 2: haven't thought of before. When I've got an operator in 291 00:17:42,836 --> 00:17:46,596 Speaker 2: there running the car. Also, the presence of the operator 292 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 2: I think produced a very specific social dynamic because there's 293 00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:55,956 Speaker 2: someone in charge in the car. So I go in. 294 00:17:56,676 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 2: When there's no one in charge, it is literally a 295 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:05,996 Speaker 2: group of strangers entering a car, sort of fending for themselves. 296 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 2: And that social dynamic remains one of the reasons many 297 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 2: people don't like elevators because they're awkward, they're weird little rooms. 298 00:18:15,356 --> 00:18:21,356 Speaker 2: Then I'm standing way too close to somebody. 299 00:18:20,796 --> 00:18:23,836 Speaker 1: Still to come on the show. Elevators that go sideways, 300 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 1: elevators that go to space, and escalators. So here's a question. 301 00:18:39,916 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 1: Do people want to build taller buildings now? And they're 302 00:18:42,476 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: just constrained by elevators. 303 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:49,236 Speaker 2: So if I wanted to, I could build two hundred 304 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 2: story building with current technology, and I would take existing 305 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:56,436 Speaker 2: technology and I could go, you know, maybe one hundred 306 00:18:56,436 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 2: floors up, get off at a sky lobby, and then 307 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:01,476 Speaker 2: go another one hundred floors up. So if I wanted 308 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 2: to stack two hundred story buildings on top of each other, 309 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:05,516 Speaker 2: I could. 310 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: I mean, in fact, the World Trade Center, the original 311 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: World Trade Center, which was not that all, used that technology, right, 312 00:19:10,956 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 1: it was essentially from an elevator point of view, two 313 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:16,076 Speaker 1: elevators stacked on top of each other to get to 314 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:17,516 Speaker 1: the top of those buildings, right. 315 00:19:17,436 --> 00:19:20,076 Speaker 2: Right, So in theory, yes, yes, I could do that, 316 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 2: and there are some people speculating on you know, that 317 00:19:25,836 --> 00:19:30,956 Speaker 2: eventually that's the future of urban environments, massive buildings and 318 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 2: everybody living in large cities. I'm not aware of any 319 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 2: anyone who's put forward a serious explanation of why we 320 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:41,596 Speaker 2: would need to do that. 321 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:45,156 Speaker 1: Well, the interesting like if we go back to the 322 00:19:45,676 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 1: sort of first chapter that you know, whatever eighteen fifty 323 00:19:50,356 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty period call it, which is really an 324 00:19:53,956 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 1: interesting period. You know, there's a pretty strong argument that 325 00:19:57,596 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: the technological changes of that period were much greater than 326 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:03,876 Speaker 1: the technological changes of the seventy years we've just lived through. 327 00:20:03,956 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 2: Right. 328 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 1: You go from no running water for almost everybody, electricity, 329 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 1: no cars, no planes, no skyscrapers like two. You know, 330 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: Manhattan in nineteen twenty looks eminently recognizable in a way 331 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: that Manhattan of eighteen fifty would not. So I don't 332 00:20:22,796 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: think it would have been obvious to anyone in eighteen 333 00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:29,236 Speaker 1: fifty that Manhattan needed sixty story buildings. And yet seventy 334 00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:34,236 Speaker 1: years later, we had them like, what's the why did 335 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: we hit the top? If we hit the top, what happened? 336 00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:41,436 Speaker 2: Well, I mean in the Woolworth building is a good example. 337 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:47,556 Speaker 2: I think it was it was its size because the client, Woolworth, 338 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 2: wanted that building to be that big. This is about me, 339 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:56,076 Speaker 2: This is about a symbol of my commercial success, this 340 00:20:56,116 --> 00:21:00,716 Speaker 2: is about my ego. And it's really important to remember 341 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 2: from from an urban development point of view, at this 342 00:21:06,196 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 2: when the passenger elevators introduced in the Nine States, it's 343 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 2: introduced into Europe at exactly the same moment, but all 344 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: major European cities. London's a good example. Paris certainly had 345 00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 2: very specific height restrictions. You couldn't build a skyscraper in 346 00:21:22,596 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 2: those cities if you wanted to, because it was constrained 347 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 2: by code, and also there was no apparent desire to 348 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 2: do so. It was only the United States that we 349 00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 2: you know, someone said, well, I really want to build 350 00:21:35,596 --> 00:21:37,916 Speaker 2: this tall building because I want to, you know, it's 351 00:21:37,916 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 2: the power of my company. I want to make lots 352 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:44,236 Speaker 2: of money in rent space. Whatever that we said, okay, 353 00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:47,596 Speaker 2: And not that there weren't some I mean, obviously there 354 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,076 Speaker 2: were gradually development of building codes. But it was a 355 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:53,516 Speaker 2: lot about the ego of the individual client and the 356 00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:58,476 Speaker 2: fact of the unrestrained nature of American urban environments. That 357 00:21:58,876 --> 00:22:02,156 Speaker 2: and that also then, and it is still true. 358 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:06,516 Speaker 1: It's still true. But buildings aren't getting bigger so much, right, Like, yes, 359 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:08,436 Speaker 1: you get a building that's a little taller, but we 360 00:22:08,516 --> 00:22:11,796 Speaker 1: have not done another ten x. And yet people still 361 00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:15,436 Speaker 1: have very large egos and a wish to, you know, 362 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: show the world their endowment in the form of the 363 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,916 Speaker 1: biggest building in the world. But yet it's not happening 364 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: so much anymore. Is it a technological thing? 365 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:27,916 Speaker 2: It is an interesting point. I mean, you know, we 366 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:33,276 Speaker 2: are sort of maxed out right now in terms of height. Yeah. 367 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 1: Why is that is the fact that we're maxed out 368 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:40,036 Speaker 1: on height a product of elevator technology? Are we waiting 369 00:22:40,076 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 1: for some new elevator technology that will allow us to 370 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:45,476 Speaker 1: get buildings that are profoundly bigger? 371 00:22:46,276 --> 00:22:50,956 Speaker 2: Right or wrong? That's the accepted position of the industry 372 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 2: right now. That yes, with our current technology. Whereas where's 373 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 2: high as we're going to go? What I don't know, 374 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:00,996 Speaker 2: but suspect from a real estate perspective is if I 375 00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:03,716 Speaker 2: had two one hundred story buildings stacked on top of 376 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 2: one another. Would people be willing to r you know, 377 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 2: spend the time to get up to the two guys? Right? 378 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 2: Am I willing to take that kind of time and. 379 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 1: Time because they have to take two elevators? It's like, right, 380 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: you gotta transfer trains or something. 381 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 2: To And if I had a building that size, would 382 00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:30,596 Speaker 2: it be one where? And we've had mixed use skyscrapers 383 00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 2: in the past. If I had a building that size, 384 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:35,396 Speaker 2: you know, is it one that you know? I live 385 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 2: on you know, one hundred and fifty and I work 386 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 2: on seventy five. 387 00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:42,036 Speaker 1: And you shop on three, and you go to the 388 00:23:42,116 --> 00:23:45,596 Speaker 1: gym on six, and I and I never leave, you 389 00:23:45,716 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 1: never leave. Dystopian, but fun to think about. So what, 390 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 1: so what is the next leap in elevator technology? What 391 00:23:56,876 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: are people trying to solve? What's the frontier? 392 00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:02,676 Speaker 2: So the next leap is going to be elevators with 393 00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 2: no cables and TK Elevator has developed a system that 394 00:24:07,596 --> 00:24:14,636 Speaker 2: they call multi which uses maglev type technology. 395 00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:18,396 Speaker 1: Maglev like magnets like high speed trains. Yes, so it's 396 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,276 Speaker 1: floating basically in a shaft. 397 00:24:20,556 --> 00:24:25,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, a similar, similar kind of technology. And they have 398 00:24:25,356 --> 00:24:29,036 Speaker 2: developed a prototype where you would have multiple shafts in 399 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:32,556 Speaker 2: a building, multiple cars running up and down in the 400 00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:38,556 Speaker 2: same shaft, but also horizontal shafts connecting vertical shafts, so 401 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 2: I could go up thirty floors, maybe over two hundred feet, 402 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:46,356 Speaker 2: and then up another thirty floors and it's. 403 00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:47,836 Speaker 1: Like the Willy Wonka elevator. 404 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that's yes, the Willy Wonka elevator. And 405 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:58,076 Speaker 2: so that system has been sort of proof of concept 406 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:01,396 Speaker 2: in a test tower in Germany. It has yet to 407 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 2: be placed in a building to really demonstrate its viability. 408 00:25:07,676 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 2: You can see you two videos of it in the 409 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 2: test tower. It's really complicated technologically. My question is it's 410 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 2: it's almost something like you know, an answer in in 411 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:24,116 Speaker 2: in search of a question. It's like, so, you know, 412 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 2: I can understand maybe why we need multiple cars in 413 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:30,876 Speaker 2: a single shaft. I'm not quite sure why we need 414 00:25:30,916 --> 00:25:36,036 Speaker 2: to move horizontally through a building. And it is interesting 415 00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 2: to me that, at least as far as I know, 416 00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 2: thus far, there haven't been any takers. No one has 417 00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 2: said because it would be an enormous investment in a 418 00:25:47,996 --> 00:25:52,596 Speaker 2: building to install a system like that, just just to 419 00:25:52,716 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 2: demonstrate that, yes, this is this is is the is 420 00:25:56,756 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 2: the new way, but that there's been a lot of 421 00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:02,356 Speaker 2: research and a lot of work. And when it's perfected 422 00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:07,236 Speaker 2: and and there are no cables, then you know in 423 00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 2: theory that two hundreds story building gets much easier. That 424 00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:14,116 Speaker 2: there's still the question of why and you know why 425 00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:14,836 Speaker 2: we would need it? 426 00:26:17,396 --> 00:26:18,836 Speaker 1: What about a space elevator? 427 00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:26,396 Speaker 2: So the space elevator is is an amazing idea and 428 00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 2: very clever, and it's it's predicated on placing as as 429 00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 2: as you may know, placing some kind of platform in 430 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 2: geosynchronous orbit so it stays stays above the same point 431 00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 2: on the Earth, and then using guess nanocarbon fibers, if 432 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 2: we can ever perfect how to produce that many connecting 433 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 2: those two points, and then I can run an elevator 434 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 2: from the Earth to this satellite platform geosynchronous orbit, probably 435 00:26:55,356 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 2: a solar powered elevator, and suddenly I can start carrying 436 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:02,716 Speaker 2: materials up to space very easily and quickly. And that's 437 00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 2: how I'm going to build the next generation of of 438 00:27:05,956 --> 00:27:09,276 Speaker 2: of rockets and and vehicles that will you know, and 439 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 2: our travel. 440 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 1: And presumably if you could get it built, it would 441 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: be cheaper, although obviously rockets have gotten much cheaper, cheaper 442 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,876 Speaker 1: than a rocket, and it's like a real idea, right, 443 00:27:19,956 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 1: I know, nobody is actually building it, but like my 444 00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:26,676 Speaker 1: understanding of the physics, well, I don't really understand the physics, 445 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:29,636 Speaker 1: but my understanding of what people who understand the physics 446 00:27:29,636 --> 00:27:33,356 Speaker 1: say is like, yeah, it's pick a work. 447 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 2: It's a real idea. It's it's a very serious idea. 448 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 2: Lots of people have spent a lot of time thinking 449 00:27:39,436 --> 00:27:42,836 Speaker 2: about it and questions about if there's a delay. It's 450 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:46,276 Speaker 2: it's the nanocarbon fiber issue is how do we develop 451 00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:50,876 Speaker 2: something that can link something in geosynchronous orbit to a 452 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 2: place on Earth, and then where do we put it 453 00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 2: because obviously we don't want anything flying into the cable. 454 00:27:57,036 --> 00:28:00,396 Speaker 1: We haven't even talked about your escalator work. What's happening 455 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:01,596 Speaker 1: with escalators. 456 00:28:03,396 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 2: So one of the projects I'm working on is a 457 00:28:06,556 --> 00:28:10,916 Speaker 2: book on the history of the escalator, and it is 458 00:28:12,836 --> 00:28:15,356 Speaker 2: obviously related to the elevators, but it's a very different 459 00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:18,916 Speaker 2: piece of technology because it's you know, it's much more visible. 460 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 2: We sort of even though people don't really quite know 461 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:25,556 Speaker 2: how it works, it's magical in a sense that and 462 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 2: here I think I would encourage everyone to remember about 463 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:30,916 Speaker 2: as the first time as a child they saw an 464 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 2: escalator because it's like, oh my god, the stairs are 465 00:28:33,396 --> 00:28:35,156 Speaker 2: moving in a. 466 00:28:35,116 --> 00:28:38,676 Speaker 1: Way sort of visually, it's cooler than an elevator, right, 467 00:28:38,756 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 1: Like the elevator does more work. If I could only 468 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:44,236 Speaker 1: have one in the world, I'd choose the elevator. But 469 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:48,956 Speaker 1: especially when the stairs appear and disappear, that's actually the 470 00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:50,956 Speaker 1: incredible part. That's the genius. 471 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's they're they're they're very cool. Now, I 472 00:28:55,076 --> 00:28:59,476 Speaker 2: will say they are much more dangerous than elevators. Mean, well, 473 00:28:59,596 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 2: falling on an escalator or you know, they're really well designed. 474 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:08,116 Speaker 2: But they're because they because of of how we have 475 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:10,756 Speaker 2: to enter an ex I mean it requires a little 476 00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 2: bit of coordination. 477 00:29:11,756 --> 00:29:14,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't fall down an elevator the way you 478 00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: can fall down an escalator. Right, Is there is there 479 00:29:17,836 --> 00:29:20,516 Speaker 1: a good origin story of the escalator? Is there a moment? 480 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 1: Is there some genius? It's like we can squish the 481 00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:24,476 Speaker 1: steps and then make them big again. 482 00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 2: So, in a very odd so coincidence, the very first 483 00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:39,436 Speaker 2: patent for the idea of moving steps was patented on 484 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:44,636 Speaker 2: exactly the same day that otis Tuff's patented his idea 485 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:49,596 Speaker 2: or concept of the passenger elevator. Yes, and and and 486 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:53,596 Speaker 2: this design was never built, but it was somebody saying, well, 487 00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 2: how about this. 488 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:57,316 Speaker 1: The fact that both of them were patented on the 489 00:29:57,356 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 1: same day, that must tell us something about that moment, 490 00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:05,956 Speaker 1: Like I insist that it's not just a coincidence. What 491 00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 1: like what do you think it tells us about what 492 00:30:08,316 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 1: was going on? Was it eighteen fifties at that moment? 493 00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:19,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, eighteen fifty nine. That's a that's a really wonderful question. 494 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 2: And I don't I would really have to think about. 495 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's this interesting pivot point. You know, 496 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:32,196 Speaker 2: we're right on the verge of a lot of technologies 497 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:37,876 Speaker 2: really taking off, you know, whether it's railroad or other 498 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:39,116 Speaker 2: or others. 499 00:30:39,836 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a stab at it. I have 500 00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:46,116 Speaker 1: the advantage of ignorance. It's a moment when so the 501 00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:49,356 Speaker 1: industrial revolution has been going on for call it one 502 00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:52,396 Speaker 1: hundred years at that point, right, But it has been 503 00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:57,236 Speaker 1: industrial right in the way you were talking about the elevator. 504 00:30:57,276 --> 00:31:00,996 Speaker 1: It has been about factories and warehouses and this very 505 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:06,996 Speaker 1: industrial setting. And these are both inventions that are taking 506 00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:11,436 Speaker 1: the the in sites, the innovations of the industrial evolution 507 00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 1: and bringing them to the lives of ordinary people. And 508 00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: maybe this is a moment when that is starting to happen. 509 00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 1: You're getting these grand hotels you are describing that are 510 00:31:22,036 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: bringing technology, You're getting the kind of you know, ladies Paradise, 511 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:30,436 Speaker 1: early department stores, and industrialization is becoming sort of domesticated, 512 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:35,476 Speaker 1: and both the passenger elevator and the escalator maybe are 513 00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:36,596 Speaker 1: manifestations of that. 514 00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:42,076 Speaker 2: I think that's a very plausible, very reasonable. 515 00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 1: Okay, I'll take plausible. I will take plausible. We'll be 516 00:31:48,276 --> 00:32:02,716 Speaker 1: back in a minute with the lightning round. Okay, let's finish. 517 00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:07,396 Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. Favorite elevator reference in a. 518 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 2: Song, Uh, probably Aerosmith Love and. 519 00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 1: Uh great. Favorite elevator in a movie. 520 00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:23,636 Speaker 2: Actually everybody forgets about it, but it's in the movie Speed. 521 00:32:24,396 --> 00:32:27,876 Speaker 1: Huh. Speed's about a bus? Am I thinking about the 522 00:32:27,956 --> 00:32:28,356 Speaker 1: right movie? 523 00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:30,556 Speaker 2: Yes, but it's it's in the first third of the 524 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:33,116 Speaker 2: movie when the elevator gets blown up. 525 00:32:34,716 --> 00:32:35,396 Speaker 1: Why that one? 526 00:32:36,276 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 2: Because ironically it is. It's it's the one of the 527 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:41,756 Speaker 2: few times Hollywood gets it right. The cables are blown 528 00:32:41,796 --> 00:32:45,316 Speaker 2: off the car and you see the safeties, grab and 529 00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:48,396 Speaker 2: stop the car ah and and and it's just sort 530 00:32:48,396 --> 00:32:51,916 Speaker 2: of like, yeah, that's what would happen. Now, I guess 531 00:32:51,956 --> 00:32:55,316 Speaker 2: I should call it. The other one is the Willy 532 00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 2: Wonker elevator, the Johnny Depp one, not the Gene Wilder one. 533 00:33:00,956 --> 00:33:04,716 Speaker 1: I know, I know an elevator is not gonna go 534 00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:08,476 Speaker 1: into free fall. But what is a dangerous thing that 535 00:33:08,556 --> 00:33:11,836 Speaker 1: I should not do on or near an elevator? 536 00:33:15,796 --> 00:33:18,556 Speaker 2: That's a really good question. There are many many safety 537 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:23,076 Speaker 2: devices in place on elevators. I with all of those 538 00:33:23,076 --> 00:33:25,956 Speaker 2: in place, what I still would probably not suggest is 539 00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:28,516 Speaker 2: if the door is starting to close, don't put your 540 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:31,876 Speaker 2: don't put your arm in that gap, thinking the door 541 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:36,076 Speaker 2: will automatically rebound. It should, but I wouldn't do that 542 00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:38,556 Speaker 2: or put your foot in the gap. 543 00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:42,836 Speaker 1: How many articles have you written for Elevator World magazine. 544 00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 2: Over two hundred and fifty? 545 00:33:45,076 --> 00:33:46,836 Speaker 1: Have you ever been stuck in an elevator? 546 00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 2: Almost button? But no, I had an elevator once that 547 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 2: stopped and I thought, okay, this is my first experience, 548 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:56,676 Speaker 2: and then it started moving again, So no, I haven't. 549 00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 2: I haven't had that experience. 550 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:00,516 Speaker 1: Were you kind of disappointed when it started moving again 551 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, I mean I feel like if 552 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:06,076 Speaker 1: you're you, you kind of in control the way. Want 553 00:34:06,076 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 1: to be stuck on an elevator once for not too long? 554 00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:12,436 Speaker 2: Well? The advantage and only I know I only know 555 00:34:12,476 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 2: this because of what I know is is you know, 556 00:34:14,956 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 2: if an elevator stops moving, I'm in the safest place 557 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:20,156 Speaker 2: I can be in the elevator car. And then I 558 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:21,036 Speaker 2: just wait for help. 559 00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:25,436 Speaker 1: Have you ever ever walked up a down escalator? 560 00:34:27,396 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 2: No? 561 00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 1: Have you ever walked down an up escalator? 562 00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:35,876 Speaker 2: No? 563 00:34:37,276 --> 00:34:41,356 Speaker 1: Do you push the door closed button on the elevator sometimes? 564 00:34:42,196 --> 00:34:44,916 Speaker 1: Does it work? I have read that it doesn't work? 565 00:34:44,956 --> 00:34:45,516 Speaker 1: Is that true? 566 00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:47,196 Speaker 2: It works? 567 00:34:47,756 --> 00:34:53,916 Speaker 1: Tell me one thing I don't know about moving sidewalks. 568 00:34:54,996 --> 00:35:00,516 Speaker 2: The first okay, when moving the first, moving sidewalks were 569 00:35:00,796 --> 00:35:04,116 Speaker 2: intended as urban transportation systems. 570 00:35:05,276 --> 00:35:09,476 Speaker 1: Like like to get me from First Aba New to 571 00:35:09,636 --> 00:35:11,476 Speaker 1: Central Park? Like what does that mean? 572 00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:15,356 Speaker 2: So the idea would be if you went so, imagine 573 00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 2: going down into a modern subway system, but instead of 574 00:35:18,556 --> 00:35:21,516 Speaker 2: waiting for a subway car moving in front of you, 575 00:35:21,996 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 2: are continuously moving in front of you? Is a moving sidewalk? 576 00:35:25,596 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 1: I love? And is it going so fast? 577 00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:28,796 Speaker 3: No? 578 00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:32,356 Speaker 2: And so the original idea was that, let's say you 579 00:35:32,396 --> 00:35:37,276 Speaker 2: would have four moving sidewalks, and so the first one 580 00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:40,116 Speaker 2: is moving at one and a half feet per minute, 581 00:35:40,356 --> 00:35:42,676 Speaker 2: the second one at three, the next one at four. 582 00:35:42,876 --> 00:35:45,156 Speaker 1: So I can get on the first one from a standstill, 583 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:47,556 Speaker 1: and then I can sort of accelerate by getting onto 584 00:35:47,556 --> 00:35:50,196 Speaker 1: subsequent moving sidewalks, and then I got a moving sidewalk. 585 00:35:50,276 --> 00:35:54,356 Speaker 1: That's just like tramming along right, Yes, And that sounds 586 00:35:54,396 --> 00:35:56,636 Speaker 1: so fun. I mean, it doesn't seem like a good idea, 587 00:35:56,716 --> 00:35:57,716 Speaker 1: but it seems fun. 588 00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 2: The one example that was built that you can actually 589 00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 2: see an operation at the nineteen hundred Paras Exposition. There 590 00:36:08,956 --> 00:36:12,156 Speaker 2: was a moving sidewalk system like that that went around 591 00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:16,396 Speaker 2: a large part of the exhibition exposition grounds and it 592 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:21,236 Speaker 2: was filmed, and if you google moving sidewalk Paris, you 593 00:36:21,316 --> 00:36:24,076 Speaker 2: can watch movies of people getting on and off and 594 00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:24,996 Speaker 2: it's hysterical. 595 00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:31,436 Speaker 1: Lee Gray is a professor of architectural history at the 596 00:36:31,516 --> 00:36:35,876 Speaker 1: University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Today's show was produced 597 00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:39,156 Speaker 1: by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was edited by Lyddy jeene 598 00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 1: Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguier. You can email us 599 00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:46,836 Speaker 1: at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm Jacob Boldstein and 600 00:36:46,876 --> 00:36:49,236 Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with another episode of What's 601 00:36:49,236 --> 00:36:58,836 Speaker 1: Your Problem.