1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt Noel is 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: on a musical adventure. They call me Ben. We are 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decond. 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Matt, 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: as everyone had turned into our live show, has already learned. 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Congratulations are due to you, my old friend. You have 12 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: made it ten years right, ten year anniversary. Oh man, 13 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: it was huge. It was really great, and honestly, I 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: couldn't be happier. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Someone also recently 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: asked us, I don't know whether you saw this about 16 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: the age of stuff they don't want you to know, 17 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: going back to the YouTube days. You know, I think 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: we're ten maybe eleven at this point? Are we ten 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: maybe eleven between? Yeah? That's crazy. So that means that 20 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: this show started around the time you got married. That's right. 21 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: It was part of my vowels made vows to my 22 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: wife into to you guys. Oh wow, weird and explains 23 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: a lot. I know kidding, we are. We are having 24 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: a great though busy time here at the top secret 25 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want, you know, studio with it a 26 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: publicly available address. Because we're traveling a lot, we're making 27 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: some way eaves and we are still we're still delving 28 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: into new and strange things, at least as far as 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: this show is concerned. Because one of the new and 30 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: strange things that we're delving into today is a very, 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: very old thing. We are delving into the story of 32 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:27,559 Speaker 1: some of the legitimately oldest conspiracy theories in human history, 33 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: not just written history, not just oral history. The capital 34 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: h whole thing today's episode, you see, is about religion 35 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: before the dawn of recorded history. This has been one 36 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: of humanity's most inspiring, divisive and if we are being 37 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: brutally honest, dangerous debates, oh absolutely, And just to put 38 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: this out there, as we do every time we talk 39 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: about something like this, we at this show will never 40 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: tell you what to believe or what not to believe. 41 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: That is your own thing. What we will do is 42 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: discuss a lot of these things. And Dan, if you're 43 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: listening and driving to work, uh, that means you. Oh 44 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: that's right, Yes, thank you so much, Dan Harmon. We 45 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: do have eyes and ears scattered around various places in 46 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: the English speaking world. We we appreciate, we appreciate your time. 47 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: Did you get a chance to listen to that clip? 48 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: I did. I really hope he doesn't feel too bad 49 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: about listening to this show after after talking about it openly. Well, 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: I want to point out also also, I I would 51 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: hope this is abundantly clear to anyone listening to the show. 52 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: We're not Nazias, nor do we identify with or give 53 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: any consideration to, uh categorically, any ideas of racial or 54 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: religious supremacy. That sort of stuff is is just the 55 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: lowest form of thinking, you know what I mean. Um, 56 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: but you know, with that, With that said, it was 57 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: really cool to to hear our show spoken by somebody 58 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: that you know, we we genuinely appreciate his work. So 59 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: oh yeah, and I respected brilliant writer and unfailingly honest too, 60 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: which is a rare commodity in these our modern days. 61 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: Here's here's hoping the best we can hope, now, Matt, 62 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: is that we do not get ruthlessly lampooned on some 63 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: episode of Rick and Morty. Oh or should we hope that? 64 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: Either way? What a what a way to go? And 65 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: I like that. We're also we're also being careful to 66 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: talk about avoiding prejudices and discriminations as we enter into 67 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: one of the most discriminatory and prejudice parts of the 68 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: human experience, religion. You know, what would the what if 69 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: if we were trying to sell religion to some extraterrestrial 70 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: species or someone who had somebod never heard of it? 71 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: The taglines are you know, there's a multitude of them, 72 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: but they're also pretty distressing. Again, if we're being honest religion, 73 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, in the byline is a lot of good 74 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: people died and an uncountable number of people have died 75 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: over the years because of persecution by varying sects of religion. 76 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: But you know that doesn't mean it's all bad, right, sure. Yeah. 77 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: While there is no way to estimate how many people 78 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: have died due to religious conflicts over the course of 79 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: this strange experiment we call the human species, there's also 80 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: no way to estimate how many people have been physically 81 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: saved by another person's religious principles. You know, someone has 82 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: their finger on the button for a bomb or their 83 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: finger on the trigger of a gun, and all of 84 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: a sudden, there's some sort of distant echo internal monologue 85 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: in their heads saying thou shalt not something something, and 86 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: they say, I will not be force of evil today, 87 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: or just by the simple kind words of one person 88 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: to another that saved the life of another, or you know, 89 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: giving the giving of food, or the selflessness that exists 90 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: in many, if not most religions. Sure, yeah, in a 91 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: very real way, spiritual beliefs taught empathy too many people. However, 92 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: knowing that we cannot estimate the number of people who died, 93 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: and we cannot estimate the number of people who were 94 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: saved physically again not spiritually, we can sadly and tragically 95 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: safely assume that the number of people who died due 96 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: to religion far outweighs the number of people who are 97 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: saved to a religion so far. You know what I mean? 98 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: Maybe will be the big ear for all of us. Yeah. Well, 99 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: we also can't continue without stating the fairly obvious. But 100 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: maybe something we don't about very often is that religion 101 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: can be used as a control structure for the masses, 102 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: a control structure for the mind essentially, and opiate of 103 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: the masses. Yeah, yeah, I mean it can be used 104 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: in those ways. If wielded. It's it's tough to even 105 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: talk about a lot of times, because if wielded by 106 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: an improper power, or by a power or someone with 107 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: intentions to do so, it's possible. At least I'm gonna 108 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: say that, I'm gonna take it a little bit further 109 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: and maybe what I did for here, which is fine, 110 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: I am going to argue that, at least from a 111 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: social perspective or a sociological perspective, all religion is a 112 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: means of controlling a group of people. That doesn't necessarily 113 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: mean it's a bad way to control a group of people, 114 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of ancient texts that have 115 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: restrictions or constraints that may seem oddly specific fi right 116 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: in a modern day, but if you look at the 117 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: time in which these were created, a lot of them 118 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: were things like health code concerns. You know what I mean. 119 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: It might say, you know, insert God here says not 120 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: to consume this animal because it's unclean, when the reality 121 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: may have been don't consume this animal because it will 122 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: give you trick gnosis or something and you will die, 123 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: you know. Uh, And the same thing with like rules 124 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: about hey, don't sleep with your family members because it's 125 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: it's what's bad for the goose is bad for the 126 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: gander genetically or even something is as simple as you 127 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: try not to be jealous of other people. You know, 128 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: like that. It's it's a simple idea. But if you 129 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: can encode that in someone, you can probably make society 130 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: a little bit better or at least at large by 131 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: controlling them. Agreed. See again, it's it's rules of the 132 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: road for for a group to survive. In this show, 133 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: we're going to explore the basics of religion as current 134 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: understood from an academic and an historical perspective. We are 135 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: not going to make any attempt to proselytize you, and 136 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: we won't We certainly will not try to grade one 137 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: belief system as better or worse than another. Uh, we're 138 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: not qualified, And to be honest, there is no one 139 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: alive or dead who was qualified, is qualified, or will 140 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: be qualified to do so. Oh man, I know, I 141 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: know hyperbole, right, and I would be glad to be wrong. 142 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: If there is someone who who is genuinely some sort 143 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: of omniscient religious authority believe for you. I'm pretty sure 144 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: there's there's at least two people somewhere in Arizona that 145 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: could probably fit that bill. Yes, yes, right to us. Please, 146 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at I heart radio dot com. Instead 147 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: of doing that, instead of you know, lauding one religion 148 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: or or vilifying another, or try I'm to convert you 149 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: to one of our uh self manufactured religions, we are 150 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: going to delve head first into the one of the strangest, 151 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: longest running conspiracy theories in history, and that is the 152 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: idea of secret religions. Here are the facts. Okay, So 153 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: when we were saying religion, what we're really talking about here, 154 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: we're just going to hit some of these basic points. Right, religion, 155 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: we're talking about the worship of a god, some kind 156 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: of supernatural being or pantheon of beings gods in that 157 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: in that case, and and their ability to exert some 158 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of power over humans or or the earth or 159 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: some other physical aspect in that we encounter, or the 160 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: or your access to the spiritual world. Yes, yes, so 161 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: the idea there being that there is a god of everything, maybe, right, 162 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: a yahweh, or there is a god that controls certain 163 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: aspects of the world, right, like a hades, right, a 164 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: god of the underworld. That's and that's very general though, 165 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: because that doesn't encompass all religions, right right. That's the thing. 166 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: This definition is not entirely correct. Not all religions have 167 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: what we would recognize as a supreme deity. Some religions 168 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: just have precepts like don't kill people because it will 169 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: make things worse for you, right, uh. And then we 170 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: have to arrive at a more inclusive definition, or maybe 171 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: more comprehensive definition. If we're trying to fit everything that's 172 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: ever been called a religion into one definition, we would 173 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: say something like a religion is a cultural system will practices, traditions, values, 174 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: and beliefs, often accompanied by psycred text, locations and rituals. 175 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty good, because it's so damnably broad. And 176 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: this leads us to a huge controversy, a controversy that's 177 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: probably never going to be solved even now, even today 178 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: as you listen to this. As we recorded in nineteen 179 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: there is no scholarly agreement over what exactly make something religion. Like, 180 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: think of all the things in the world that are 181 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: not religions but fit that second definition. We're talking about 182 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: some some nerd fandom, right, watching the people who get 183 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: together to watch Rocky horror picture show. So yeah, some marketing, 184 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: multi level marketing games. There we go, Uh, sports fandom. Right, 185 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: this is what we do for our team to increase 186 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: their chances of getting to the super Bowl, and people 187 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: believe in it. I gotta wear my green pants or whatever. Right, 188 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: thou shalt not say, uh, that's certain play whilst in 189 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: a theater. Yes, exactly exactly. And now let's let's exit 190 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: stage left, pursued by a bear to look into the 191 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: history of religion. How do we get to this crazy 192 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: place where billions of people around the world are defining 193 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: their lives and living their lives according to something that 194 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:15,479 Speaker 1: billions of other people think is either misguided or inaccurate 195 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: or complete hogwash. The weird thing is, we've been working 196 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: on this conundrum for the longest time. Asking asking where 197 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: religion begins is a lot like asking who the first 198 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: person to discover fire was, Right, there's not a clear answer. 199 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: We're not gonna find one unless something very surprising happens 200 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: in today's episode. The best we can guess is that 201 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: again religion predates the written word and recorded history. At first, 202 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: that sounds impressive, but written history only really kicks into 203 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: gear five thousand years ago or so, which is a 204 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: drop in the bucket. It's not a long time humans 205 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: were around the way before then, It just took us 206 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: a while to start writing things down in full. The 207 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: oldest known writing currently is a limestone tablet. It's called 208 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: the Kish tablet from Sumere. It's around dates backed around 209 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: b c E. And it's it's in a weird spot 210 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: because if you look at it, it's pictograms. It's an 211 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: assemblage of pictograms. But it represents a kind of awkward 212 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: transition from proto writing to syllabic writing of what would 213 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: later be recognized as kenea form. So syllabic writing, of course, 214 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: is the kind of writing that you would see English 215 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: rendered into on a page. Right, you you have different 216 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: you have different symbols representing different sounds or groups of sounds, 217 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: and you arrange them into things and holy smokes, by 218 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: golly by gum, when you pronounced those correctly, they make 219 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: a spell. The living language. I love where you took 220 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: that when you said syllabic writing. In my mind, I 221 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: really was thinking about the art of chiseling stone tablets. 222 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: I apologize that that's where remember and went No, but 223 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense to Can you imagine how 224 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: how frustrated the authors and the thinkers of old would 225 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: be with with our creative aptitude today. It's so easy 226 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: to write a book today. All you have to do 227 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: is not get distracted. You can get up, you can 228 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: get a pen and a piece of paper for free, 229 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: pretty much. But good luck not getting distracted. Good luck 230 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: not getting distracted. Yes, so that that's where we are. 231 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: We know this stuff existed forever, and there's some fascinating 232 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: physiological processes at play in the human mind. From everything 233 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: we can find, human beings seem hardwired for these sorts 234 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: of belief structures. We see this because what we would 235 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: call religion today likely arose independently in many, many parts 236 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: of the world and was probably most often tied to 237 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: natural cycles of the earth, right crops growing, the harvest season, birth, death, winter, 238 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: what time is the sun coming up? When's the eclipse? 239 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: That kind of jazz, And then also in step with that, 240 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: veneration and fear of the dead. Those who have passed beyond. 241 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: Let's weigh that body down with rocks, but in a 242 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: respectful manner so they're not pissed at us later. Well. Yeah, 243 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: and in those big questions that are endlessen have been 244 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: around forever and probably will never leave us because there 245 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: may never be a concrete answer of what happens to 246 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: us after we die, right right exactly. We do, however, 247 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: know the oldest universally agreed recorded religion. We we have 248 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: been able to get a ballpark sense where and when 249 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: that begin? Oh yeah, sure, so the the oldest recorded 250 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: religion goes all the way back to Mesopotamia, and a 251 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: lot of the practices that we know about from here 252 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: likely began as the worship of some kind of natural forces, 253 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: as Ben was speaking about earlier, seeking some you know, 254 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: supernatural intercession for crops, I mean, making sure that we 255 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: have enough food to feed all the humans that are 256 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: around us, as well as feed the animals that we 257 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: need to sustain our lives. And also you know, trying 258 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: to avoid some kind of natural disaster that exists within 259 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: their part of the world, to say, a tornado or 260 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: flooding or something to that. Effect. And you know, when 261 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: you're thinking, when you're thinking about the Mesopotamians and what 262 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: they were, what their beliefs were back then, you have 263 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: to first start with knowing that they were polytheistic, meaning 264 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: they worshiped several major gods and then numerous, well thousands 265 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: at least of minor gods. Yeah, exactly, each Mesopotamian city, 266 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: whether Samerian, Acadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, and so on, they not 267 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: only had the universally recognized pantheon of Mesopotamian gods, they 268 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: also had their own patron god or goddess. So for 269 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: for a good analog of this, if you're familiar with 270 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: US cities, imagine just for the sake of argument, the 271 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: entire country had the same polytheistic religion. But in addition 272 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: to the pantheon that everybody in the country agreed upon, 273 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: each city had its own specific god. A god for 274 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, a god for Chicago, right right, a god 275 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: for I don't know, Spokane or Syracuse. You know that 276 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: that's the sort of environment in which these people lived, 277 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: and each Mesopotamian era or culture had different aspects, expressions, 278 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: or interpretation of the gods. This is something we see 279 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: again in in Greco Roman culture. For instance, mar Duke 280 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: god A Babylon, for example, was also known in Sumer, 281 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: but he was Inky or Ea. This practice that's kind 282 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: of complicated. Cultural exchange had its heyday from aroundt b 283 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: C where we see the Kish tablet to about four 284 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: hundred a D. At that point, this pre existing religion 285 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: began to be supplanted by Syriac Christianity. Yeah, and the 286 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: way it gets supplanted is not always the most peaceful 287 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: thing or method um. But it is important to note 288 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: that this kind of transitioning, Uh, if you're living in 289 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: one space, one area, the transitioning of religion as some 290 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: overlay with that area, it's not rare. It's pretty dang common. 291 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: And most often, like we were saying, it's not, it's 292 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: not as though they it's an on off switch, right 293 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: with Let's say, if Buddhism moves into an area, it 294 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: doesn't just turn over to Buddhism. That's kind of obvious, 295 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: but in our minds sometimes we we separate things like 296 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: that just to make it easier, right, But this is 297 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: a one giant cross fade that that occurs when an 298 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: area is transitioning from one religion to the next, and 299 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: sometimes that belief system ends up morphing and becoming something 300 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: new when it's two or more combining. Right, Yeah, like 301 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: a brand new package, same great taste, you know if 302 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: you're buying religions at a grocery store, or maybe same 303 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: rough package, but the taste is got a little extra 304 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: spice to it. There we go, there we go with 305 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: new ingredients. So I think that's a more apt comparison 306 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: that you've just made. And this goes to a larger point. 307 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: It's something that I think escapes a lot of us. 308 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: It definitely escaped me when I was a kid in 309 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: history class or you know, reading various uh dusty tomes 310 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: because of the huge, huge disparity between the average human 311 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: lifespan and the length of time that it takes a 312 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: global or large spread systemic change to occur. Because of 313 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: that disparity, we have a terrible on the ground perspective 314 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: of what history is, how it's happening. It is so 315 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: incredibly rare to be a person or people who can 316 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: look around in the present day whatever that is, and say, oh, 317 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: this this is a huge event in history. We can 318 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: do it now. I hate to quote Fox News here, 319 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: But now more than ever, we can be aware of 320 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: those moments because we can communicate on a global scale 321 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: so quickly. Right, people around the world watched the moon landing, 322 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: and everybody kind of God. It was a big deal, 323 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But four hundred, five hundred, 324 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: six hundred years ago much you know, not not to 325 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: mention even further back. If you were living in a town, 326 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: you would see the change of history. You would see 327 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 1: the tide of history turn on a slower intergenerational access. 328 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: Maybe you were raised, for instance, Christian, but your your 329 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: older relatives, who maybe said they were also Christian, still 330 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: had a lot of practices and beliefs that were veneration 331 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: of ancestors or worship of a polytheistic assemblage of God's 332 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: And so for you, that would be the reality. That 333 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: would be how things always were. And then you would die, 334 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: and then your children or your offspring or younger people 335 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: in your area, if the Christian religion was on the rise, 336 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: they would always be Christians, but maybe they would still 337 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: have a couple of traditions that they didn't really understand. 338 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: You just always did that because Grandma did it, you 339 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean. So you can I mean, just 340 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: because you mentioned my wife earlier, I would say that 341 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of that that exists within her families. Um, 342 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, the varying branches of her family, as you know, 343 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: Santorea and things like that make their way into Catholicism 344 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: as some of those older traditions morph into things that 345 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: you would do for the church essentially. Uh, It's it's 346 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: fascinating and a little bit of foreshadowing here. I like that, 347 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: met because this means that some of these practices had 348 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: to continue in secret. They became conspiratorial due to the 349 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: repressive policies of the dominant state governments or religions, which 350 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: usually were hand in hand and inseparable. Right, God is 351 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: the King and so on. Somehow, plucky little tykes that 352 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: we are, humanity manages to survive this very strange cyclical practice, 353 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: this battle of ideas and ideology, and it leads us 354 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: to today. So what is the state of religion today? 355 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: As far as we understand it. We have some statistics 356 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: and we have some inspiring news. It turns out that 357 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: several very ancient religions have survived this strange cycle, this 358 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: strange war of ideas, and will explore them in depth 359 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors, Yes, we're back. And 360 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: as we were saying, some of these quieter religions have 361 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: survived in the corners of the world, in places where 362 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: you may not expect to find them. And uh, we're 363 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: going to talk as well about some of the oldest 364 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: existing religions where we're gonna jump into a lot of statistics, 365 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: as you mentioned right now, about what our religious world 366 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: looks like today. Right So, according to all of visual 367 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: sources and even to um anecdotal stories you can find 368 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: in oral traditions, many ancient religions have more or less 369 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: completely died out. They were supplanted by newer spiritual rival 370 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: or they were as you as you mentioned earlier man 371 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: or grocery store analogy, they were absorbed into a more 372 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: popular system. It's it's interesting too when you listen to 373 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: or you read transcriptions of oral retellings and folk tales, 374 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: because religious wars are sometimes depicted not as arguments over 375 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: ideology or spiritual values. They're depicted as wars of survival 376 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: and attrition against strange people. Right like when we did 377 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: our episode on the the people of the Steka right 378 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: in North America, or what's now called North America. They 379 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: the antagonistic people, the so called giants, were not depicted 380 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: as people who had a different lifestyle or a rich 381 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: spiritual culture. They were just a rival group competing for resources. 382 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: And then later this kind of stuff gets um gets airbrushed, 383 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: gets the made for TV treatment, and then some some 384 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: other community leader comes along and says, oh no, no, 385 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: no, no no, no no no. I mean, the war wasn't 386 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: really about fresh water or grazing land. It was that 387 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: our God told us to do it, and that's why 388 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: we did the right thing. Yeah, Maria took told us 389 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: to go over here. We we, we Babylonians took over 390 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: all of this land because we were told to right right. 391 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: And I love that you point this out. Because the 392 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: rule is usually that religions will die or be absorbed 393 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: into a different model over time. You will not, for example, 394 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: find a ton of at least publicly accessible temples and 395 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: churches dedicated to worshiping marduk or or Marduk or Marduk. 396 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: You will, however, find that despite that, despite that unpleasant 397 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: fact that many religions of ancient ancient times have enormous 398 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: stain power even today, people will usually say that the 399 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: oldest known existing religion, extant religion is Hinduism. It originated 400 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: in the Indus River Valley part of modern day Pakistan, 401 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: sometime around two thousand five b C, possibly earlier. And 402 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: just to stop on that point for a second, it's 403 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to pinpoint the origin of Hinduism because, 404 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: unlike some other religions, it doesn't have a particular founder 405 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: that one can point to. There's no Aha Mazda, no 406 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: more is this Abraham, Jesus and so on. It also 407 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: doesn't have a single text Bible at Torah Kuran, and 408 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: this leads scholars to conclude that what we call Hinduism 409 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: today is an amalgamation of a great number of pre 410 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: existing traditions and beliefs. The question then becomes how far 411 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: back to those traditions and beliefs? Date is it? Five 412 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: thousand years? Is this a situation where some of these 413 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: these beliefs and practices predate the written word? Yeah? Does 414 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: it go back to the via Maana's and back to 415 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: the stars? Right? Like this is this is a thing 416 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: that people probably drop acid and talk about all the time. 417 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: But but as far as proving that, it's very difficult. 418 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: So we we just know that at some point around 419 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: at least two thousand, these things all came together into 420 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: what we call Hinduism. The oldest script is the rig Veda, 421 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: also believed to be ancient thousands and thousands of years old, 422 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: and the next oldest religion that is still around today 423 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: is Judaism. That's correct. I would like to say that 424 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: Hinduism um did something very smart in keeping or having 425 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: staying power with their religion, because they invented reincarnation, which 426 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: meant that everybody who's ever worshiped Hinduism made it back 427 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: here somehow discovered, discovered, And that, of course is a joke. 428 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: I do not mean to insult anyone's belief. So okay, yes, 429 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. The next oldest would be Judaism because 430 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: that um it originates in the Southern Levant. We talked 431 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: about that area before, and it was founded by the 432 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: biblical Moses that a lot of us do know. But 433 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 1: the Jewish history traces it back to earlier than Abraham. 434 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: And the most important religious text here was the Torah, 435 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: of course and still is the Torah, and it's part 436 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: of a larger work. Uh, what is it called the 437 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: Tanak or the the Hebrew Bible. You'll hear it called 438 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: as well. And this is this is interesting because similar 439 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: to Hinduism, you know, there's that there's this official founding, 440 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: right or this is this official this is Judaism kind 441 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: of moment. But uh, but but Jewish history traces back 442 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: before then, right as as as a people, and there's 443 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: a lot of historical work done there. And then let's 444 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: say the third ancient, oldest extant religion Zoroastrianism, originating in 445 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: Persia modern day Iran around fifteen hundred b c. All 446 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: three of these religions still have adherents today. Of the three, 447 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Zoroastrianism is probably the smallest, as an estimated two hundred 448 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: thousand followers around the world. Right, And it's important to 449 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: stay that there are a couple of a couple of 450 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: issues with with the with calling those three the oldest 451 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: extant religions, but we'll get to them in a second. 452 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: Let's look at the largest religions today. We pulled some 453 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: numbers from a couple of places, including the Pew Research Foundation, 454 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: and the Pew Research Foundation along with some other folks, 455 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: broke it down this way, and he said, the largest 456 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: religion in the world today is Christianity at an estimated 457 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: two point three billion followers, and then Islam comes in 458 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: at number two with one point eight billion people. Hinduism 459 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: still at it quite successful one point one billion people, 460 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: and Buddhism comes in and out about half a billion. 461 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: And then let's let's group a bunch of other religions 462 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: together into what's called folk religions. That would be point 463 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: four billion, which I feel is a little bit of 464 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: a pop out. But there's another group we skipped over, 465 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: which is if we included this, this would be the 466 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: third largest religion. One point two billion people in the 467 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: world consider themselves unaffiliated with any particular belief system, and 468 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: in many places on Earth, this group seems to be 469 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: on the rise. Okay, we tease some issues with these numbers. 470 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: Here's the problem. These numbers are tricky and in no 471 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: small way misleading, because anybody who practices one of the 472 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: faiths mentioned at any part in the show up to 473 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: now is saying, hey, they're lumping in a lot of 474 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: really different things together, different offshoots, denominations and so on. 475 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: And some of these, like the various flavors of m 476 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Protestant Christianity would would seem to have a lot in common, right, 477 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: but not necessarily not necessarily right there, Still are they 478 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: still different enough that they would you know, some of 479 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: them would rather not be lumped in together with all 480 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: these other people who got in their opinion, Christianity wrong. 481 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: And then other groups like Shia or Sunni Islam practitioners 482 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: are more or less bitterly opposed and would not, as 483 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: a result, be particularly thrilled to be lumped into a 484 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: category either. They would say, no, we are different because 485 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: we have the line of the profit correct, and these 486 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: people not only got it wrong but refuse to see 487 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: the light. So do not include us with them. And then, 488 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, if pushed to the point, they probably still 489 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: be like, well, they're still Muslims, so they got that 490 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: part right. So there's still like not as bad as 491 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: an appostate, or not as bad as a non Muslim, 492 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: but still it's important we're different. Why are you calling 493 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: us the same? Well? Yeah, absolutely, Well, in a lot 494 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: of a lot of this goes back to those people 495 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: that we mentioned there are unaffiliated in any way with 496 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: some kind of religion, and that goes right back, or 497 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: the rise in that number goes back to the secular 498 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: thinking that exists in our world now and as always existed. 499 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: But but again it's it's morphed a little over time 500 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: as science continues to improve, as technology improves, as the 501 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: need for explaining of a lot of these things morphs 502 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: for us because we're kind of replacing a lot of 503 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: that with these little, um black boxes in our hands 504 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: that we carry around. It's it's so odd the way 505 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: these big questions kind of get get uh, not answered sufficiently, 506 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: but they feel like they're maybe not as important. They 507 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: get refrained. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, and that leads us 508 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: to the rise of the secular mind, those one point 509 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: two billion people you're mentioning. So this is weird because 510 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: it's it's a real time, real world example of what 511 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about when we what did you call it? 512 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: Meant when we look at that gigantic cross fade of 513 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: of one belief system to another. And here's a great 514 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: example of it. There's this funny, tragic comic practice that 515 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: occurs around times of political or social strife in countries 516 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: across the world. Many, many countries do this. It's not 517 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: just the US, although perhaps we have the most clownish 518 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: reputation for it. Here's what happens. Something's going wrong domestically 519 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: abroad times are tough. Politicians and spiritual figures when seeking 520 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: a boost in approval ratings or a way to distract 521 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: the population from uh, genuine physical problems and concerns, will 522 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: start railing about human beings turning away from the true path, 523 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: whatever that true path might be. And the argument goes 524 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: that there's this lack of religious faith and that's the 525 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: real cause at the root of whatever problems are currently 526 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: being encountered. The economy is bad, people have turned their 527 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: back on God, and that not uh, you know, the 528 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: federates or rising corporatocracy. That explains it, and it doesn't 529 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: remind you of the crops are really bad this season. 530 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: We haven't been sacrificing enough. We need to continue the 531 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: sacrifices right. And there's another darker side of this too, 532 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: where they may say the lack of faith is not 533 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: only the reason for something going wrong, it is a sin, 534 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: and this sin may only be um we may only 535 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: be redeemed through a specific set of actions. In the past, 536 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: one of the go to actions has been waging war 537 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: on a community nearby adjacent to you in the next valley, 538 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: over the pass or so on, in order to save 539 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: them from the terrible things happening under the rule of 540 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: whatever king or religion exists over there, whatever infernal, unclean 541 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: pagan god. Right, Yes, so we have to we have 542 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: to kill these people to save their souls, which sounds 543 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: crazy when we put it into one sentence, but we 544 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: guarantee you that is real logic that has been deployed 545 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: countless times. One great example of this, I know we're 546 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: getting we're getting kind of bleak here, so let's maybe 547 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: do a comparatively benign example. This is one that um, 548 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: you and and Mission Control and I all grew up 549 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: with here in the US. And you probably heard this 550 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: too at some point. The good old Christmas debate gets 551 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: rolled out, rolled out every every few years in the 552 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: United States, And you know this, one Christmas season starts 553 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: and then a politician or maybe a Christian um spiritual 554 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: figure on some sort or another, goes on the media 555 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: and decries the horrific practice of saying happy Holidays rather 556 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: than Merry Christmas. Woe unto you, they imply, for this 557 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: country has lost its way. And this small phrase is 558 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: a tiny reflection of everything going to absolute hell in 559 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: a handbasket unless you do what I mean, God tells 560 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: you to do right and it goes further than that. 561 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: You'll hear the argument that secular values are in and 562 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: of themselves religions. Right there, there are people really you 563 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 1: have to watch out for the rise of secular humanity. 564 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: The idea of being good without God is tricking you. 565 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: It's a front for a different thing. It's still a religion. 566 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: It's insidious, it's sinister, and that's how they get you. 567 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: For more on this, listen to our episode on the 568 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: Origins of Christmas and also watch our video because it 569 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: really really brings the holiday cheer when you start learning 570 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 1: about what it actually is. And again, this is not 571 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: in any way to denigrate people's faith. This is this 572 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: is a way that cynical, very cynical people manipulate innocent 573 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: people who probably just want the same things. Is everyone 574 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: else listening right. You want to feel like you're very 575 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: good at stuff. You want to feel like you are 576 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: comfortable with the world around you and your place in it. 577 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: You want to love and be loved. That's not that hard. 578 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: Everybody deserves that. But we're also very susceptible to someone 579 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: trying to play to our fears for their own benefit. Yeah, 580 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: it works with me more often than not. Unfortunately. Um, 581 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: but it does go even further. It doesn't stop there. Yeah. Yeah, 582 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: that's the thing. Okay, all of these estimates, these definitions, 583 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: these historical milestones, they all rely entirely upon our understanding 584 00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: of revealed public religions. Reveal old religion will be religion 585 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: based on divine revelation. Right, God took some form and 586 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: told us how to stop screwing up so bad. We 587 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: told this, you know, how to live better, how to 588 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: how to do the right thing with our collective life. 589 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: So we're basing everything up to this point on religions 590 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: that we know exist. And the question is, what if 591 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: there is more to this story? What if there are 592 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: religions and belief systems that don't like Islam or Christianity 593 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: ask their adherence to advertise the faith. What if their 594 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: religions that don't want to convert a bunch of new followers. 595 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: What if there are secret religions and what if they 596 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: exist in the modern day? And we'll talk about that 597 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: right after a quick word from our sponsor. Here's where 598 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: it gets crazy will be the easy answer here is yes, 599 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: oddly enough, and it could be argued, but that you know, 600 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: by the virtue of these things being secret, and this 601 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: is crazy. I know. Um, these religions are in and 602 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: of themselves in some way a conspiracy, just by the 603 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: fact that there are groups of people who have been 604 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: trying to hide them and working together in secret to 605 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: keep them secret. Yeah, it's sort of the Church of 606 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 1: So yes, we're entering a realm of strange and possibly 607 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: disturbing speculation here. Let's start with the most easily provable cases, 608 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: will move to the plausible, and then we'll hit that 609 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: deep water for a second. We'll see what we mean 610 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,879 Speaker 1: in a moment, No calu, I promise. Yeah, we'll also 611 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: talk about in a few of these cases how that 612 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: cross fade is occurring. Then you can kind of see 613 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: it in these specific religions. Yes, yes, so first off, 614 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: real proven secret religions. The mystery schools. Oh yes, we're 615 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: some of the most famous. So the Greco women world 616 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: was no stranger to secret religions. These were specifically referred 617 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: to as mystery religions. It sounds sinister mystery school mystery religion, 618 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: like there's something really wrong going there, or it's it's bad, 619 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,959 Speaker 1: But a lot of times it's just mysterious, y'all. It's 620 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: just it's it's not for you unless you're on the inside, right, 621 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: unless you're connected. These practices originate in pre existing tribal ceremonies. 622 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: These were performed by people all throughout the world, and 623 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: a lot of these practices were things that we could 624 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: maybe see or encounter analogs of or descendants of today, 625 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 1: but we we don't know exactly what they did. A 626 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: lot of that will be lost to history. In the 627 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: tribal communities where these practices originate, every member of the community, 628 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 1: the clan, or the village was initiated and then you know, 629 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: they were brought in to become a member of the 630 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: school for this belief system. But in Greece, initiation became 631 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: a matter of personal choice, meaning that the people who 632 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: would induct you, they could decide whether or not you 633 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: didn't automatically deserve to be inducted, and you didn't automatically 634 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: have to. You could say no. It might be very 635 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: politically or even physically dangerous for you, but you could 636 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: say no absolutely, and uh, you know, several of these 637 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,479 Speaker 1: mystery religions reached the highest levels of their popularity within 638 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: the first three centuries a d. But again, the origin 639 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: of of a lot of these goes back to much 640 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 1: earlier centuries in Greek history. And a lot of these 641 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: mystery religions, as little as we actually do know about them, 642 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: we we do know that they had things in common. 643 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: A lot of these were, you know, meals that would 644 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: be eaten together with people who were like minded or 645 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: believe the same things. Um, there would be some form 646 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: of physical movement that venerated something, write, a dance of 647 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: some kind, and other ceremonies like that. And there are 648 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: a lot of times be or probably the most important, 649 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: let's say, would be the initiation rites that occur for 650 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: every new member that joins officially into the group. Yeah, yeah, 651 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: And examples of these mystery religions, we we have a few, 652 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: even if we don't know a ton about their specific practices. 653 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: We have followers of Dionysus, right, we had the Elusinian mysteries. 654 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: These were the earliest and most famous of the mystery cults. Again, 655 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 1: I know the C word, but that's what they were 656 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: often called. Well, yeah, and a lot of times it 657 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: was the extreme or this is just my opinion here, 658 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: but a lot of it tended to be the extreme 659 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: worship of one or you know, one or two or 660 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,839 Speaker 1: maybe just one of the gods that are worshiped within 661 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: the pantheon of the Greek gods. You would have a 662 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: specific cult of mithra, cult of this, or cult of that, right, 663 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: and that those kind of end up becoming many of 664 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 1: the mystery religions, right. Yeah, And this this one group 665 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about, they lasted for over a thousand years, again, 666 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: a thousand years of which we are aware, so we 667 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: don't know what else was going on. And there's something 668 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: else it's fascinating about this. So at this time there 669 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: wasn't really a separation between a a a secret cult 670 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: or a mystery school and a secular secret society. There. 671 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,839 Speaker 1: You know, a bunch of people maybe in Turkey, want 672 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: to start a society with closed door meetings to form 673 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: a better fire brigade. Right in ancient times, that's a 674 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: true story. In the suspicious eyes of leaders at the time, 675 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: both these secular interest groups and these religiously motivated groups 676 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: were dangerous because they had the possibility becoming avenues for 677 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: conspiracy and revolution. And the US. These groups whenever possible, 678 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: where subverted, exterminated, or if it was expedient to do so, 679 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: they would be you know, they would have public officials 680 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: joined them. Yeah, and these kind of societies still still 681 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: carry on the big question is whether or not they 682 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: still have clause and things, or if they're just kind 683 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 1: of old boys clubs. Right. Yeah, And what you're talking about, 684 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: they're having an official join one of these secret groups. 685 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 1: It's an attempt to either absorb it into another, uh 686 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: of the larger religious systems probably and or just making 687 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: it not so strange to then allow those people. You know, again, 688 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: it's strategic and if you're thinking about it this way 689 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: to bring it into the fold. And that's where we 690 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: get into that thing we discussed earlier, religious syncretism, where 691 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: that cross fade, where we're right in the middle of it, 692 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: where where one becomes another one plus one equals three. 693 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: It's it's it's interesting stuff. That's a good way to 694 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: say it, Matt. Yeah. This is the blending of two 695 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: or more religious belief systems into what essentially becomes a 696 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: whole new system one plus one equals three, or the 697 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: incorporation of unrelated beliefs into an existing religious tradition. This 698 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: can occur for a lot of reasons. It commonly happens 699 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: obviously in geographic areas where multiple religions exist close together 700 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,720 Speaker 1: and at once and they're active in the culture. Or 701 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: and this is the dirty side, is where you find 702 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the more extreme examples when a culture 703 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 1: is conquered and the conquerors don't just bring weapons, they 704 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: also bring their religious beliefs. Convert or die, right, or 705 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: convert and physically die, But don't worry. We're saving your 706 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: soul and you can be a slave forever in our paradise, right, 707 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: true story. Unfortunately, at least that was the pitch. So 708 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: the thing, the thing that's weird about this is that 709 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: unless the unless the culture being attacked is entirely eradicated, 710 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: their pre existing beliefs and practices will continue on. And 711 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: then we end up with things like, um, we end 712 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: up with things like gnosticism, or we end up with 713 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 1: things like offshoots earlier forms of existing religions and just 714 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: something a little more like reco Buddhism or um what 715 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: what is the name of the other one own historians, 716 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: as Christianity was moving into China. I mean, there's a 717 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: lot of really interesting things there to talk about that 718 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: are it's less stuff they don't want you to know, 719 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's more stuff he was in history class. 720 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: But again it's fascinating and it's interesting too, because I 721 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: would argue that there is a lot of stuff they 722 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: don't want you to know in aspects of religious syncretism, 723 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: because religious syncretism can also exist in a very powerful 724 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: form as coded protests and is evidenced by the practices 725 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,879 Speaker 1: of repressed native people's under the thumb of colonizers or 726 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: imperialist One example, which I believe we mentioned on the 727 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: show before, is the idea of folk saints. So I 728 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,919 Speaker 1: didn't really know about folk saints until I had spent 729 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: some time in Central America and I made friends with 730 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 1: one uh Mayan deity was called San Simone. When I 731 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: encountered his worshippers or his admirers, San Simon originally started 732 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:39,480 Speaker 1: life as a started is whatever the deity version of 733 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:44,279 Speaker 1: life is. San Simon was originally a mountain god in 734 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: the Maya religion, and he was also known as Maschimon. Today, 735 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: he's considered the patron saint of health's crops, marriage, business, 736 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 1: revenge and death. I know, it's kind of a weird. 737 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: It's a weird group. Right. When you're saying patron saint, 738 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: you mean like in Catholicism, like he is a saint 739 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: or is it? Ah? Yes, okay, So folk saints are 740 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:17,879 Speaker 1: people venerated or deities venerated as saints, but not officially canonized, 741 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,680 Speaker 1: recognized by the church. See what we see here is 742 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,920 Speaker 1: a process of taking a pre existing belief and saying, Okay, yes, saints, 743 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,279 Speaker 1: we get it. We already have those, you know what 744 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: I mean? Thanks, but no thanks saints, but no saints 745 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: or not worth it, or at least we can add 746 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: a few more to the roster. Right. And another example 747 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 1: of religious syncretism as a form of protest would be, uh, 748 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: the way that vudun in Benin or voodoo haiti or 749 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: however you wish to pronounce it had to confront and 750 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: adapt with Catholicism. Yeah, right, and so we have. And 751 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: that's where you get santaria or condoble for instance. Yeah, 752 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:15,959 Speaker 1: this is where the brutal Catholic forces would think that 753 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: they had successfully converted the people, but the people were 754 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: just using that Catholic imagery to be a stand in 755 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: for their original practices, which they didn't. It didn't really 756 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: have an intention of changing, because if you want to 757 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: change someone's mind, one of the worst ways to do 758 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: it is to threaten. Yeah, but if you did take 759 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: it on in that way, you could at least appease 760 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: the colonizers when in close quarters. We'd love to hear 761 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,840 Speaker 1: your examples of religious syncretism. Right, this is is a 762 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:55,120 Speaker 1: widespread phenomenon. We know that a lot of ancient belief 763 00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,400 Speaker 1: systems in smaller communities maybe may be practiced still today 764 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: having been I don't want to say contaminated or adulterated, 765 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,880 Speaker 1: but having been influenced by different, uh, different religions that 766 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,839 Speaker 1: some they somehow encountered. Yeah, I would have to say, 767 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: just really fast. As I mentioned here, today is the 768 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,319 Speaker 1: first time, and I don't know how this occurred, the 769 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: first time that I realized that it was Greek influence 770 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,720 Speaker 1: that gives us depictions of a human Buddha within Buddhism. 771 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,399 Speaker 1: I did not realize that at all. But it's it's 772 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: because of trade routes that existed and uh, just the 773 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,240 Speaker 1: influence of people from Greece who you know, had certain 774 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: religious beliefs who then as they move forward and are 775 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: continuing on encounter Buddhism. They enjoy, you know, they believe that, 776 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 1: let's say, more than they believe there are other original 777 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,799 Speaker 1: traditional beliefs. Then they start to follow Buddhism, and as 778 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:01,560 Speaker 1: they're thinking about Buddha, they you, rather than seeing it 779 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,800 Speaker 1: symbolically the way it's been represented for hundreds and hundreds 780 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,239 Speaker 1: of years, they truly imagine Buddha as the man, as 781 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,720 Speaker 1: this human being, you know, son of a virgin woman. 782 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: And they begin using their culture that exists within them 783 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: and the way they view art, the way they think 784 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: about these things, and they apply it to Buddha. And 785 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: that was fascinating to me. I it was a long 786 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: winded way to say, just like the statues that in 787 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,080 Speaker 1: my mind are of Buddha are really Greek, Yeah, or 788 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,799 Speaker 1: at the very least heavily heavily influenced, Yes, exactly by 789 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,399 Speaker 1: by that frame. And there there's a word for that, right, Matt, Yes, 790 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,080 Speaker 1: vocabulary word of the day everyone interpretation o greaka And 791 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: that just means essentially interpreting the world by by really 792 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: through Greek eyes or by Greek means and these are 793 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 1: just some of the numerous examples. Please please please let 794 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,200 Speaker 1: us know other examples you've seen. This stuff is endlessly fascinating. Yeah, 795 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,960 Speaker 1: and it's really just interpreting all of the other religions, 796 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: the gods, all the things that people from you know, 797 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: from that time, from that early civilization, as they're encountering 798 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,800 Speaker 1: these other things, how they view them. And it's strange 799 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,759 Speaker 1: because when you think about it, religious syncretism could at 800 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: its best be a very inclusive approach to belief. There 801 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,160 Speaker 1: are other things that are very much not syncretic, or 802 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,799 Speaker 1: at least no longer are. There are religions that are 803 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: entirely dictated by lineage. These are, in short, clubs you 804 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,359 Speaker 1: cannot join. If you are most of the people who 805 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,399 Speaker 1: will ever listen to this show, You cannot join some 806 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: religions no matter what you do, no matter how good 807 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 1: you are, how helpful, how noble, etcetera. You just didn't 808 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,840 Speaker 1: have a chance since the day you were born because 809 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: of who your parents were. One great example of this, 810 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,280 Speaker 1: with which I have some personal experience, is a group 811 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,920 Speaker 1: called the Drews d r u z E. The Drews 812 00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:13,360 Speaker 1: are a unique people and belief system who originated in Egypt, 813 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,480 Speaker 1: but have spread across the world, with a lot of 814 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:22,279 Speaker 1: concentrations in Lebanon, Syria. Is that Alan Jordan's the religions 815 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,040 Speaker 1: membership is predicated on these certain lineages, and this means 816 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:31,320 Speaker 1: that one cannot convert to this religion, one cannot become 817 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:37,439 Speaker 1: a Druz. They also practice a form of religious syncretism 818 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: in a way. I'm interested to hear what you think 819 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:44,720 Speaker 1: about this. To avoid persecution, especially very religiously conservative areas, 820 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: they would publicly adopt a religion if they had to, 821 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 1: but they would continue to practice their own real belief 822 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: system in secret. Drew's religion is seen as an outgrowth 823 00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,600 Speaker 1: of Islam that incorporates elements of Judaism, Christianity, but different 824 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,040 Speaker 1: from all of those religions Greek philosophy. Here you go, 825 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: Matt and what people have described as problematically as Asiatic 826 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,200 Speaker 1: thought heavily influenced the foundation of the religion. And they 827 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: add some ideas and still have some ideas that were 828 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,200 Speaker 1: pretty out there. They were pretty hot takes for their time. 829 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 1: They said we should get rid of slavery, which used 830 00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,200 Speaker 1: to be a very hot take, and sadly in some 831 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: parts of the Middle East is still a hot take today. Uh. 832 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,880 Speaker 1: They said we should separate church and state. Again still 833 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: a hot take. Uh. And this put them at very 834 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:42,200 Speaker 1: high risk of persecution in more conservative areas. If you 835 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: are not a Druise, you will not be privy to 836 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,960 Speaker 1: various rights and practices because again it's not for you. 837 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,200 Speaker 1: That does inherently make it, at least some degree a 838 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,399 Speaker 1: secret religion. Doesn't mean they're sinister, doesn't mean they're out 839 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:04,120 Speaker 1: to get anyone. And I actually, through marriage, am related 840 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: to several Drews. Yeah, well I am not Drews, to 841 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,960 Speaker 1: be very clear, uh, and I never will be because 842 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,920 Speaker 1: the way the religion is organized on a socio cultural, 843 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,280 Speaker 1: even biological level. Well, have you twenty three and me 844 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: or ancestry yourself because maybe you are Drews, because it'd 845 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 1: be hard to fight against if you did. You did 846 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: a test. I don't know if it works that way. 847 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,280 Speaker 1: And it's also kind of you know, people's beliefs are 848 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: important to them, and I don't want to be one 849 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:46,360 Speaker 1: of those actually Drews, right right, So let me two 850 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: percent in you know what I mean? I do. I 851 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,120 Speaker 1: think that's kind of disrespectful, you know, even for me 852 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,120 Speaker 1: even to talk about it in this way that I 853 00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: am apologies. No, no, no, I think as long as 854 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 1: we are respecting the boundaries that that a group has set, 855 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 1: that's the best we can do. There are other similar 856 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,400 Speaker 1: cases of that. Oh yeah, sorry, I wanted to bring 857 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 1: this up earlier. We were talking about this seek Religions. Yes, 858 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,880 Speaker 1: our episode on on worshiping Satan, the devil, Lucifer or 859 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,720 Speaker 1: anything like that, we've talked about it in a whole episode. 860 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,560 Speaker 1: And you know, are they actually reel to anyone who 861 00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: worships some version of that? And there is there is 862 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: one group of people that we've mentioned before, I believe 863 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,840 Speaker 1: on this show that you had talked to me about. 864 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 1: They're called the Yazdi. Yes, a little bit Luciferian, I 865 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:47,320 Speaker 1: might say, because of the differences in doctrine here, which 866 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: will be very brief. We could delve into that in 867 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:54,960 Speaker 1: a separate episode. They've been vilified before as quote unquote 868 00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: uh devil worshipers, and that's entirely because non yea Ziti 869 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: pop relations have associated the smell TuS character with Shaiton, 870 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,480 Speaker 1: the Islamic or Arab name for Satan. Is ities for 871 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: themselves find that offensive and and don't clear clearly don't agree. 872 00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,320 Speaker 1: There's not, as far as we know, a community of 873 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: people who says, yes, there is a divine good God 874 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: and we are with a bad one. There's nobody, there's 875 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,720 Speaker 1: there's not yet a provable community of people who are 876 00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: at that level of edge. Lord is m I think 877 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,440 Speaker 1: most most communities generally tend to be a little more 878 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: well adjusted than that. But it is plausible. Now. I 879 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,920 Speaker 1: would say it's more likely than not that many local 880 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,960 Speaker 1: religions have existed for a long time and exist today 881 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,880 Speaker 1: more or less unknown to outsiders. Let's call these like 882 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,120 Speaker 1: insular community systems or insular tribal religions. And I thought 883 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 1: you would appreciate this one, Matt. And let's just go 884 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 1: to an extreme example. What are the spiritual beliefs of 885 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the people on North Sentinel Island? How would we know that? 886 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,480 Speaker 1: We don't this belligerent community. Google it if you have, 887 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:14,320 Speaker 1: if you somehow have not heard of This is a 888 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,040 Speaker 1: fascinating story that Matt and I have been tracking for 889 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: God since two thousand thirteen or so. Uh, we learned 890 01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,480 Speaker 1: about it in two thousand twelve. For thousands of years, 891 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 1: the people on this island have been on their own 892 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: since around the Stone Age. They likely have a religion, 893 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 1: because again, humans are hardwired to generate and propagate these 894 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,200 Speaker 1: sorts of belief systems, but their religion has been so 895 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,640 Speaker 1: far removed from any other belief system on the planet. 896 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 1: They have not encountered some form of religious syncretism, right, 897 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,400 Speaker 1: so pure, Yeah, so in a way, this maybe like 898 01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 1: one of the oldest un uh. And I don't want 899 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,280 Speaker 1: to say adulterated again, but like one of the oldest 900 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:09,960 Speaker 1: un mixed tapes, just you know. And also just like 901 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,400 Speaker 1: the Drews, You and I and everybody listening probably cannot 902 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 1: join them. They and there are few encounters with the 903 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,600 Speaker 1: outside world in modern history. They have made that abundantly clear. 904 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,040 Speaker 1: And the only time that they've been successfully members that 905 01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: community have been successfully taken out of the community, it 906 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,160 Speaker 1: was disastrous. Uh. And it's no wonder that they doubled 907 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,040 Speaker 1: down on on putting a big keep outside to the 908 01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 1: rest of the planet. Oh yeah, absolutely, Well that's a 909 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,920 Speaker 1: real world example. What if we wanted to go down 910 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,520 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole a little bit further, What if we 911 01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,560 Speaker 1: get to something that maybe isn't even necessarily a religion, 912 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,760 Speaker 1: maybe a closer to a society, but it does have 913 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,440 Speaker 1: religious belief perhaps built into it. Whatever. Could you be 914 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:04,520 Speaker 1: talking about the illuminati? That's right, that's right, fellow conspiracy realists. 915 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: You know them, you love them. You expected him to 916 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: show up here in this episode, and you were right. 917 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Uh so, congratulations. For hundreds of years there have been 918 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 1: rumors that have, for being diplomatic, varying levels of credibility, 919 01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,920 Speaker 1: arguing that the world is actually run by a group 920 01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: of incredibly powerful people, that they are all real pills, 921 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:32,160 Speaker 1: but somehow they cooperate together and they have their own 922 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,960 Speaker 1: secret religion. They profess one religion publicly, but they practice 923 01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: this other religion that has meant for the elite and 924 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the elite alone. And you'll hear various fringe researchers or 925 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:50,400 Speaker 1: i would say French speculators saying that you know, they 926 01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:57,000 Speaker 1: secretly continue the ancient mystery schools, right, or some Mesopotamian 927 01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,640 Speaker 1: polytheistic religion, and that they consider the things like Christianity 928 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: or or Buddhism or any any younger religions tools to 929 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:11,720 Speaker 1: control the masses, manipulation systems for slaves. Yeah, and there's 930 01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,840 Speaker 1: no lack of let's let's say this again in a 931 01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:23,120 Speaker 1: diplomatic but accurate way. There's no lack of people claiming 932 01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: to have evidence that this is true. Yeah. All I 933 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:35,640 Speaker 1: would say, Ben, is that the answers to our questions 934 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: about the Illuminati all exist on a stone castle on 935 01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,680 Speaker 1: the top of a hill with a man who is 936 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:47,840 Speaker 1: known only as the songwriter, and if you seek under 937 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: the silver lake you may find him. They talk about 938 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,080 Speaker 1: Philip K. Dick. No, what is this. It's one of 939 01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,960 Speaker 1: the first times I've ever been able to reference something 940 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,200 Speaker 1: without you know what, I'm knowing what I'm talking about. 941 01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: So I'm really really happy about it, and I'm gonna 942 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,200 Speaker 1: wait for you to learn about what it is when 943 01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,120 Speaker 1: people write to us. Interesting. Yeah, okay, because at first 944 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,280 Speaker 1: I was thinking, man, the high castle, but maybe I've 945 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:15,400 Speaker 1: just been I'm so excited switched because yeah, maybe I'm Yeah, 946 01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,280 Speaker 1: it's obscure. I promise you it's obscure. And is it cool? 947 01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,919 Speaker 1: Does the reference work? Um? I don't know, but we'll 948 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:25,720 Speaker 1: just have they were great. Yeah. I think I think 949 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,920 Speaker 1: it's cool. Oh, thank you man. I'm excited. Nintendo Power 950 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,920 Speaker 1: is involved as well. Is this Castlevania? No? Got way on? 951 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,080 Speaker 1: I think hearing castle is just throwing me. It's actually 952 01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,800 Speaker 1: not too far. But it is a video game. Uh no, 953 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,760 Speaker 1: it's not a video game. Wow, there's a mystery of foot. 954 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: How appropriate for this episode. So while I'm caught shady 955 01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: on this, yeah, I'm flammings, I'm stumped. Uh. We know 956 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,280 Speaker 1: that there are different, um, different things that are purported 957 01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:04,520 Speaker 1: to be evidence of an existence of the sinister's secret religion, 958 01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,880 Speaker 1: practiced by some relatively anonymous cabal of people. Right, and 959 01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:15,240 Speaker 1: some of these things are real. The Bohemian Grove does 960 01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:19,400 Speaker 1: have this ritual called the Cremation of Care wherein they 961 01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:24,080 Speaker 1: ritualistically burn and effigy and they get really weird about it. 962 01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,800 Speaker 1: It seems to be a rich boys club. But for 963 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,760 Speaker 1: people who believe that there is a secret religion in play, 964 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,560 Speaker 1: this is a smoking gun, yes, or I should say 965 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:39,440 Speaker 1: a smoking effigy. Yeah, you're you're I mean, you're correct, 966 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,920 Speaker 1: That's what it is. For those people. It's it's tough though, 967 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,800 Speaker 1: umo because we can't really we can't fully prove anything 968 01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,760 Speaker 1: like that, you know, is it truly religious belief? Just 969 01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,360 Speaker 1: because they you know, do something. If someone participates in 970 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,520 Speaker 1: something like the cremation of Cara, Rich right, doesn't mean 971 01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:01,320 Speaker 1: that they actually believe a whole separate set of beliefs 972 01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,120 Speaker 1: and that they're all working together for some goal. That's 973 01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,640 Speaker 1: why it's so difficult for us to really explore something 974 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,280 Speaker 1: like the Illuminati, because we know there's that real thing 975 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,720 Speaker 1: called the Bavarian Illuminati that we've talked about New Years Times. Yeah. Yeah, 976 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,120 Speaker 1: but like right now, I mean, if someone is in 977 01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,760 Speaker 1: a secret religion like that, they're not gonna nobody's gonna 978 01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,360 Speaker 1: talk to me or you. They might, they might talk 979 01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:26,720 Speaker 1: to They might talk to you, They might talk to 980 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,280 Speaker 1: they might talk to all of us, they know what, 981 01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,760 Speaker 1: speak only to Paul. We need to get Dan Harmon 982 01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,600 Speaker 1: on the case because they'll definitely talk to him. They'll 983 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,120 Speaker 1: strike up a conversation, you know, something Rick said, and 984 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,640 Speaker 1: then he's in. There's a problem, though, Matt. If something 985 01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,640 Speaker 1: like that existed, and if it was that powerful, then 986 01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:49,720 Speaker 1: why would we be able to talk about it so 987 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:54,120 Speaker 1: openly and so easily? You know what I mean? Because 988 01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: we we did a what three part series on on 989 01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,680 Speaker 1: the so called Illuminati, and I think we did I 990 01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:06,240 Speaker 1: think we did a pretty good job of of separating 991 01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:11,320 Speaker 1: some facts from some fiction and fancy there but again, 992 01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,959 Speaker 1: that's that's the biggest argument. If if it were something 993 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,520 Speaker 1: that existed, it were dangerous, it were a potent force 994 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:21,920 Speaker 1: in the world, then why it's okay. It's kind of 995 01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,360 Speaker 1: like the Wigia board argument. If there is a way 996 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,520 Speaker 1: to reliably contact the afterlife, if if we if we 997 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,480 Speaker 1: say that people, some part of us exist after the 998 01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,960 Speaker 1: corporeal body no longer functions, then would the way to 999 01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,200 Speaker 1: contact the afterlife really be a mass produced board game 1000 01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:46,120 Speaker 1: by Parker Brothers? Has is that has is it possible? 1001 01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:48,640 Speaker 1: That just goes to real and they're like, why is 1002 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:51,360 Speaker 1: no one taking this Wigia board thing? Seriously? It's our 1003 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,960 Speaker 1: one chance to talk to you. It just it doesn't 1004 01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:55,960 Speaker 1: match up, you know. And I don't mean to I 1005 01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,600 Speaker 1: don't mean to sound dismissive of that. I'm just saying 1006 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,720 Speaker 1: that it See, if there is some secret evil religion, 1007 01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,520 Speaker 1: and if it's real, then I don't understand why they 1008 01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:10,520 Speaker 1: haven't reached out to us or you know, done something. 1009 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:12,840 Speaker 1: I know, maybe I'm whistling in the graveyard, or maybe 1010 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm uh, maybe I'm I'm not daring anybody to do 1011 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,040 Speaker 1: anything crazy. I'm just saying it's that's That's one of 1012 01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,760 Speaker 1: the biggest pieces of evidence against that stuff existing that 1013 01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,560 Speaker 1: does improve it doesn't exist. The same thing with evil religions, 1014 01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:31,720 Speaker 1: the ideas of secret Satanist which you already mentioned, but 1015 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:36,439 Speaker 1: it does. This all leads us to one concrete answer. 1016 01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,880 Speaker 1: This is one of those episodes where we do have 1017 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:44,799 Speaker 1: an answer. The answer is, yes, secret religions do exist. 1018 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,479 Speaker 1: They do exist today to one degree or another. They 1019 01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,240 Speaker 1: may not be exactly what we're thinking of what fiction 1020 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,559 Speaker 1: wants us to believe, but yes, there are secret rituals 1021 01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 1: and practices, and there are there are value systems. If 1022 01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:01,680 Speaker 1: we define secret as things that not everybody has access to, 1023 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,240 Speaker 1: then yeah, of course those exist and they probably will exist. 1024 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,559 Speaker 1: The only question then is how much or how little 1025 01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 1: influence did they have on the world in which we 1026 01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,519 Speaker 1: live today? Does does it matter to you? Are you? 1027 01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 1: Are you going to be resentful of people who have 1028 01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,599 Speaker 1: their own belief system if it doesn't affect you just 1029 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a tough thing to deal with 1030 01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:27,760 Speaker 1: as humans, but you know, some things they're just not 1031 01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,960 Speaker 1: for you. For me, the biggest question for today, after 1032 01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,360 Speaker 1: everything we've talked about, is how much did some tiny 1033 01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,080 Speaker 1: secret religion with you know, a small group of people 1034 01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:45,080 Speaker 1: practiced and believed. How much did that secret religion influence 1035 01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,639 Speaker 1: whatever your religious beliefs are right now? And you know, 1036 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,240 Speaker 1: if you if you follow one of the larger movements 1037 01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,639 Speaker 1: in traditions and religions today, how much did a lot 1038 01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:01,320 Speaker 1: of these smaller, secretive religions back in the day changers. 1039 01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:06,200 Speaker 1: That's a great question. And I'd also like to say, um, 1040 01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:10,479 Speaker 1: and it's just to build on that that faith as 1041 01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:14,479 Speaker 1: we understand it, regardless of your specific spiritual belief system 1042 01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:21,240 Speaker 1: or religious belief. Maybe faith is a uniquely human superpower. 1043 01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:27,160 Speaker 1: We don't have a very good definition of what intelligence is. 1044 01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:32,080 Speaker 1: We are closer and closer, like the more we learn 1045 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,639 Speaker 1: about intelligence and these amazing baffling machines we call the brain, 1046 01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,400 Speaker 1: the more we learn that we have a lot in 1047 01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:41,960 Speaker 1: common with animals that we used to think we're not 1048 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:46,280 Speaker 1: super intelligent, like corvids and elephants, cetaceans and so on. 1049 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:50,320 Speaker 1: But the one thing that still differentiates us is this 1050 01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 1: ability to imagine an unseen world, you know, and I 1051 01:10:56,080 --> 01:11:00,479 Speaker 1: mean using unseen because I don't want to say you know, 1052 01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:02,720 Speaker 1: for some people in our audience today, some of us 1053 01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,200 Speaker 1: listening will probably say, I think you mean made up, 1054 01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,040 Speaker 1: But I don't want to say made up. I want 1055 01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: to say unseen, because I know this is a very 1056 01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:12,560 Speaker 1: personal and very real thing for a lot of people. Well, yeah, 1057 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:18,479 Speaker 1: the concepts of parallel dimensions are certainly not unscientific, right, 1058 01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean, or at least within the thought of these 1059 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,439 Speaker 1: things and anything that you would compare to a heaven, 1060 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,160 Speaker 1: a hell, whatever you want to call it, a purgatory, 1061 01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:31,400 Speaker 1: all those things that would or could be just considered 1062 01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:35,320 Speaker 1: a parallel dimension that exists simultaneously next to ours. There 1063 01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,439 Speaker 1: we go, and maybe a good way to phrase it 1064 01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:43,320 Speaker 1: is as a series of questions. Do elephants have God's? 1065 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,559 Speaker 1: Do corvids have God's? Do dolphins have God's? The answer, 1066 01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:51,960 Speaker 1: as far as we know, is no. From everything we 1067 01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:58,080 Speaker 1: have seen, there is one flavor of life in this planet, 1068 01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:01,080 Speaker 1: and therefore the entirety of our experiences that has the 1069 01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:06,639 Speaker 1: capacity to pursue this sort of mental system, and it's us. 1070 01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,680 Speaker 1: This is you know, I gotta quote Spider Man. With 1071 01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,400 Speaker 1: great power comes great responsibility. We're the only living things 1072 01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:17,439 Speaker 1: that can do this. And regardless of how we may 1073 01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,519 Speaker 1: feel on individual levels about individual examples of this, we 1074 01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,439 Speaker 1: have to sit back and admit that is astonishing. I 1075 01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:26,320 Speaker 1: don't know where else to go with this. You know 1076 01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,320 Speaker 1: what I mean? Is is a world without this kind 1077 01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:34,000 Speaker 1: of capability better? I would argue no, because that same 1078 01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of uh almost said hotspot, but that that that 1079 01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:44,880 Speaker 1: same kind of ability is what drives us towards these 1080 01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:48,719 Speaker 1: innovations that again, no other living creature has been able 1081 01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,160 Speaker 1: to do yet so far as we know. Absolutely, So 1082 01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,400 Speaker 1: go ahead and if write to us, if you have 1083 01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:56,760 Speaker 1: any thoughts on any of this stuff, we'd love to 1084 01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,800 Speaker 1: know what you think. You can find us on Instagram, 1085 01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:04,080 Speaker 1: can conspiracy stuff show, Twitter and Facebook conspiracy stuff you 1086 01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 1: can visit Here's where it gets crazy. That's our our 1087 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,160 Speaker 1: community page on Facebook where you can have a conversation 1088 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,080 Speaker 1: with everyone else listening who is willing to also go 1089 01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: there to talk about all this stuff together. Because I 1090 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:20,040 Speaker 1: think this could be some pretty ripe conversations, right, Yeah, 1091 01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:22,880 Speaker 1: I agree. And if you would like to speak to 1092 01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:27,320 Speaker 1: us directly and avoid the social meads and ails, you 1093 01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,719 Speaker 1: can you can call us. We do have a phone number. 1094 01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:33,600 Speaker 1: We are one eight three three st d w y 1095 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,960 Speaker 1: t K. Leave a message you could get on the air. 1096 01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:38,600 Speaker 1: Let us know if you don't want to be on 1097 01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,400 Speaker 1: the air if it's just personal for Ben, Noel, Paul 1098 01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,800 Speaker 1: and I and anyone else who may have worked on 1099 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,680 Speaker 1: the show before looking at you, Seth and Maya Uh. 1100 01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:49,719 Speaker 1: If you don't want to do any of that stuff, 1101 01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,040 Speaker 1: you can leave us a good old fashion email. We 1102 01:13:53,120 --> 01:14:15,680 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they 1103 01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:17,280 Speaker 1: Don't want you to Know is a production of I 1104 01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:20,120 Speaker 1: heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my 1105 01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,160 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1106 01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:25,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.