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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's train wreck watching or pity

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Speaker 1: watching or thank God I'm not out in the elements

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Speaker 1: watching or Jess Anderson in a wet t shirt washing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that it's successful.

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Speaker 2: It's successful.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Hi, I'm Alison Camarata and you may know me

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Speaker 1: from CNN, but you're about to hear my deepest secrets.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everybody, thanks for joining me. Welcome to Off the

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Speaker 2: Beat with Me your host Brian Baumgartner. We have a

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Speaker 2: breaking news story today out of Westport, Connecticut. Renowned journalist

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Speaker 2: and television personality, Allison Camarata is making waves once again,

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Speaker 2: this time as a guest on this podcast. Yes, Alison

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Speaker 2: is a stalwart figure in the world of broadcastournalism, a

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Speaker 2: reporter who has seen pretty much everything. Her career has

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Speaker 2: spanned multiple decades and ideologies. She worked for many years

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Speaker 2: at Fox News and is now an anchor with CNN,

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Speaker 2: not to mention a stint at America's most wanted and

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Speaker 2: local channels in Boston and Washington, d C. But no

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Speaker 2: matter where she's reporting from or for whom, she's always

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Speaker 2: fair and reasoned. She has a real journalistic integrity and ethics,

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Speaker 2: and that's exactly what we need in the world of news. Today,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about how she bridged the gap,

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Speaker 2: how she copes with the twenty four hour news cycle,

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Speaker 2: and her early days in the downtown New York punk scene.

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Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this conversation with Alison. You can catch

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Speaker 2: her on the Whole Story with Anderson Cooper these days,

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Speaker 2: and you can also learn all about her fascinating life

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Speaker 2: in her new book, Combat Life of a Jersey Girls

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Speaker 2: Search for Home. Now over to you, Allison.

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Speaker 3: Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeakna Bubble

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Speaker 3: and Squeak could get every mo lift over from the nub.

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Speaker 2: Hi Allison, Hey, Brian, what's up. How are you doing?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing well.

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Speaker 1: It's such an honor to be on with you. A

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Speaker 1: national hero.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh please, I'm serious. No, I'm not a head

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Speaker 2: of state. I'm not I'm not an ambassador or a

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Speaker 2: congressman or a president or a senator.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 2: But it's very very I've been a fan of your

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Speaker 2: work for a long time and it's so nice nice

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Speaker 2: to talk to you. Well like yours. Where are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm in my home in Westport, Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Connecticut, Fancy, Martin Fancy, that's where that's where the well,

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Speaker 2: I'm on the other coast, so, but that's where the

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Speaker 2: New York fancy people live. I want to launch into

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Speaker 2: your career and your life. But it feels like I

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Speaker 2: have to say that we have an official I guess

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Speaker 2: raised for the president coming up this year. Biden and Trump?

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Speaker 2: Are you so excited about this?

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Speaker 4: Beyond beyond?

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you know who's excited about this? Therapists,

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Speaker 1: That's who's excited about this. The amount of money that

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Speaker 1: they'll make over the next couple of years, So psychiatrists

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Speaker 1: and psychologists very excited.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, when you said the last next couple

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Speaker 2: of years, that's a horrible, horrible thought. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: have but we have six months until election day ish.

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Speaker 1: And it does feel as though there'll be some like

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Speaker 1: act of God or like force majure as they say,

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Speaker 1: that will keep it from happening.

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Speaker 4: I mean that's just election.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh God, feels like it, maybe like aliens will invade.

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Speaker 1: It's just we don't have the imagination to actually I

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Speaker 1: think imagine election day as is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it'll be interesting. I don't know if it'll

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Speaker 2: be fun. I was I was listening to some sports

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Speaker 2: radio yesterday who said, this is the place that you

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Speaker 2: can come and not not hear about all of that,

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Speaker 2: But then you would be out of a job. I guess, So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we gotta we gotta watch some.

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Speaker 1: Sort well, I mean, I guess I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I really really bums me

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Speaker 1: out is that there's a lot of news, and I

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Speaker 1: think that we've gotten so heavy on political news and

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Speaker 1: certainly partisan news, that there's all sorts of other human

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Speaker 1: story worries to be told. And I'm grateful when I

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Speaker 1: get assignments to tell those other stories, because it's only

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Speaker 1: in the past, I don't know any more, fifteen years

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Speaker 1: that you know, politics has become the sports of our era.

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Speaker 1: But there used to be a time when polite society

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Speaker 1: didn't talk politics, and I want to get back to that,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like to get back to just human interest,

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Speaker 1: other important stories to tell.

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Speaker 2: Well, I know you've been doing a lot more of

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Speaker 2: that recently, and I want to talk about that. But yes,

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Speaker 2: that was the rule, right, no politics, religion at the

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Speaker 2: dinner table, the rule. Yeah, I remember that. My grandmother

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Speaker 2: taught me that you're now in lovely Connecticut. You grew

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Speaker 2: up in the Jersey Shore there, Shrewsbury, New Jersey. What

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Speaker 2: were you interested in as a youngster there in the

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Speaker 2: Jersey Shore.

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Speaker 1: I was interested in the beach, of course, because it's

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Speaker 1: the Jersey Shore. I was an only child raised by,

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Speaker 1: you know, born to two intellectuals. So there were books

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Speaker 1: and a lot of music around my house when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, and I would say that music is

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Speaker 1: the theme that kind of bond did my parents and

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Speaker 1: me together, as well as a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: Monmouth County, New Jersey, which are the short towns. Music

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Speaker 1: was a big motif through our young lives. There were

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Speaker 1: a lot. I don't exactly know what the special sauce

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Speaker 1: was of Mommoth County and why music was so important.

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Speaker 1: If it's because we were forty miles away from New

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Speaker 1: York City and we would go in and hear live music.

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Speaker 1: But there were just a lot of garage bands. My

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Speaker 1: high school had a ton of bands. Bruce Springsteen is

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Speaker 1: obviously from there, but I mean Bruce is just a product.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't the reason we were into music. He's just

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Speaker 1: another example of how Monmouth County breeds musicians, right, and

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Speaker 1: so that was a big theme through my life and

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Speaker 1: continues to be like music was a very powerful influence.

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Speaker 2: Were your parents at interests in their in their musical

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Speaker 2: choices or is this I mean you say intellectuals and

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Speaker 2: so I think like they've got Beethoven rocking on the stereo.

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Speaker 1: Well, they knew a lot about most Art and Beethoven.

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Speaker 1: But I don't mean they were avant garde intellectuals. I

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Speaker 1: mean that they just under They too understood music. And

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Speaker 1: my mother, in fact, was the drama teacher at a

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Speaker 1: local high school, so she put on the musicals every year,

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Speaker 1: so it truly was in my dna. She was the

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Speaker 1: first one she ever directed was West Side Story, and

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant with me. So from in utero I

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Speaker 1: understood musicals and had memorized all the lyrics to musicals.

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Speaker 1: So that was on in my house a lot different.

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Speaker 1: You know, Man of La Mancha and Cabaret and even now,

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Speaker 1: I mean those are just they're spectacular, you know that kind.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, my point is we weren't music snobs. We

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Speaker 1: liked all different kinds of genres.

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Speaker 2: Has that carried forward for you in your time at

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Speaker 2: Fox News and CNN just then like just a street battle. Now,

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Speaker 2: every time I see you, I'm going to think that

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Speaker 2: you're thinking that, by the way, Well, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, isn't it true that even the CNN and Fox

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Speaker 1: battle plays into the Sharks and the Jets.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's what I mean. That's yes, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure who is who at this point. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to stay away from that. But you talked about

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Speaker 2: in your new book. You have a new book coming out,

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Speaker 2: congratulations on that, Combat Love a Jersey Girls Search for Home.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk more about that a little bit later.

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Speaker 2: But you talk about being free range or kind of

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Speaker 2: unparented in your book. Does that mean you were given

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Speaker 2: a lot of space as a child to explore and

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Speaker 2: try things.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this is a kind of universal

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Speaker 1: feeling of gen xers. I think that a lot of

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Speaker 1: us were semi parents or unparented. We were the free

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Speaker 1: range generation. And it's strange, Brian, because there was never

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Speaker 1: a generation before us, I think that was so unparented,

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Speaker 1: and there certainly hasn't been one since. I mean, now

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Speaker 1: we've the pendulum has swung to helicopter parenting, which is overkill,

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Speaker 1: may I add, So we were this very strange blip

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Speaker 1: in like the evolution of humans, where we were just

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Speaker 1: turned loose for some reason, as like marauding teenagers and

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Speaker 1: adolescents on the streets. I don't really know where parents

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Speaker 1: were in the eighties. I've tried to figure it out.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: If they were all a giant cocktail party somewhere, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but they weren't around even like stay home

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Speaker 1: mothers were never hovering. And so yeah, it was a

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Speaker 1: very free range time, and I look back on it

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Speaker 1: fondly because I think that it instilled a lot of

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Speaker 1: grit and you know, self reliance that our kids now

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Speaker 1: don't have because we're helicopter parents. But as you'll read

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Speaker 1: the book, there were also many dangerous, dicey situations that

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Speaker 1: could have been avoided with a little supervision.

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Speaker 2: I think, right, yeah, yeah, I certainly see that. But

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Speaker 2: it's funny now, you know, I have younger kids. I

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Speaker 2: started late, and we have to know where they are

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Speaker 2: all the time now. And by the way, the phones

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Speaker 2: don't help, not that they have phones yet. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to hold off as long as I possibly can't do

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Speaker 2: that and the watches and all this stuff. And I

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Speaker 2: was just talking to somebody recently about like we would

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Speaker 2: get home from school or on a Saturday, like we

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Speaker 2: just checked out, Like we were just gone running through

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm from Georgia. There's woods. We were just

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Speaker 2: like running through the woods. And now it would be

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Speaker 2: like even if it was quote unquote safe from other

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Speaker 2: predators of one kind or another, it's like ticks or

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Speaker 2: snakes or like all of those things. Now would be like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, you need you need some tick

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Speaker 2: repellent on and on this gauze mask or whatever like

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Speaker 2: to protect you from I don't know, it's cract. I

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Speaker 2: mean we killed a cotton head, yeah, that's what you

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Speaker 2: call snake, like off our porch, and that the next

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Speaker 2: day we were running through the woods like not paying

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Speaker 2: any attention to anything. I just can't even imagine that

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Speaker 2: these days.

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Speaker 1: I'm me too. Our kids are totally bubble wrapped, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think that it's doing them any favors to

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Speaker 1: be bubble wrapped. I mean, I do think that there

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Speaker 1: is a happy There must be a happy medium. I

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Speaker 1: know we haven't found it yet because I don't think

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Speaker 1: that kids should have been in as many cars with

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Speaker 1: drunk drivers as I was. I don't think that's a

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Speaker 1: good idea, but we've really overcorrected that said. You know

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Speaker 1: my kids, I have two twins now who are in college,

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Speaker 1: and they're like shot out of a cannon because they're

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Speaker 1: having the experience in college for the first time, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh my god, what is this you know

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Speaker 1: that we had in high school. So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe postponing it four or five years is for the best.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be really hard now. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: assume it still happens, but to get away with like hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to Johnny's house to spend the night. I'll

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Speaker 2: see you tomorrow. Because there's no cell phones to text,

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Speaker 2: there's no there's not even any parents if the phone.

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Speaker 2: If Johnny's parents are out of town and they just

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Speaker 2: don't answer the phone, they could just be not answering

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Speaker 2: the phone. Now it would be like text call alert totally.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, we did have sleepovers at people

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Speaker 1: whose houses whose parents were out of town. My design

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Speaker 1: that was the beauty parents were off and out of town.

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Speaker 1: That was what we did.

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Speaker 2: Well, as you said, they were not present as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: I find this so interesting. You got into punk rock,

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Speaker 2: you talked about music is going to be a theme,

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Speaker 2: You started going into New York City to go to

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Speaker 2: a lot of the clubs there. Do you look back

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Speaker 2: fondly on those days, or do you look back and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: my god, I can't believe that I was doing this,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I could have gotten myself into trouble.

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Speaker 1: Well, I did routinely get myself into trouble.

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Speaker 2: But well, but you're still here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is the dividing line.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I did survive, you know is important. I mean,

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert. I did survive, but I think back on

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Speaker 1: it very fondly, and I wasn't really I want to

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Speaker 1: be clear. I never was masquerading as a punk rocker.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a mohawk, I didn't have a safety

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Speaker 1: pin through my cheek. Okay, I myself couldn't really pull

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Speaker 1: off the punk rock aesthetic. But what happened was my

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Speaker 1: gateway drug into punk was a local punk band from Shrewsbury,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey called Shrapnel, and I loved Shrapnel so much,

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Speaker 1: and I loved those guys in it. They were so

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Speaker 1: charismatic and so cool and charming that that's who I loved,

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Speaker 1: and so that's why I would follow them around. And

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Speaker 1: I ended up in this milieu of going to see

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Speaker 1: the Ramones and the Dead Boys and the Dictators and

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Speaker 1: like all of these bands. But I was really just

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Speaker 1: grinning and bearing it until I could get to Shrapnel

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Speaker 1: like that. I was there for Shrapnel and so but yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm honored that I was at CBGB's in the

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Speaker 1: heyday and that I was, you know, at all of

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Speaker 1: those front row shows like that. I look back on

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Speaker 1: it really fondly.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's really cool. I mean that that experience of

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Speaker 2: I think a perfect balance between like having a I mean,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like it wasn't so much of a bubble,

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Speaker 2: but having that smaller community where you could grow up,

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Speaker 2: you could explore safely certain things there, but having the

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Speaker 2: city so close to be able to have that as

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Speaker 2: a as an outlet. That must have been must have

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Speaker 2: been really fun. So this is it during high schoo

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Speaker 2: you're doing this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this was during high school restudents And to your point, Shrewsbury,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey is basically one square mile maybe two square miles,

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Speaker 1: and it would have been Maybury had it not been

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Speaker 1: forty miles away from the city. But somehow because of

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Speaker 1: that link, that fathers got on the train there in

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Speaker 1: the morning and went off to work in Manhattan and

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Speaker 1: then came home. And I don't know what planted the

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Speaker 1: seed with all of us kids that we thought we

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Speaker 1: could do that as well, but we did. And so

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Speaker 1: Shrewsbury is this very strange little pocket or was in

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Speaker 1: the eighties where we were tethered to the city in

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Speaker 1: a way that small town suburbia isn't always And we

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Speaker 1: did use the city, and we did go see live

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Speaker 1: music in the city, and I did spend my prom

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Speaker 1: night at the Limelight in the city. Like we just were.

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Speaker 1: We did have that combination of small town Ocean Jersey

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Speaker 1: Shore and then that escape to have adventures in the city.

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Speaker 1: And so it was you know, if you survived it,

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Speaker 1: it was measurable, right.

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Speaker 2: I promise you you won't know that this is true.

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Speaker 2: I don't relate every conversation, so I spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of times not mentioning the office, but I do have

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Speaker 2: to say, part of what you just talked about is

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Speaker 2: something that our boss Greg Daniels talked about a lot

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Speaker 2: which was interesting to me, which was in terms of

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Speaker 2: like why Scranton, Pennsylvania, Like why choosing that? And what

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Speaker 2: he was looking for was an insular community but that

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Speaker 2: was close to the big city, and so what kept

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Speaker 2: those people there as opposed to being in the city

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Speaker 2: or you know, and part of it is distance and

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Speaker 2: so forth, But how often did they utilize the big

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Speaker 2: city or whatever and stayed where they were? So when

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Speaker 2: he was coming up with where the office was going

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Speaker 2: to take place, that was his requirements, Like he wanted

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Speaker 2: it to be near something large, but still insular in

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Speaker 2: its own way, with access to but not in that

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Speaker 2: larger community. So I don't I always find that fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I like that, Brian. And first of all, you can

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Speaker 1: relate everything back to the office. I'm here for it,

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Speaker 1: totally here for it. And I mean we can get

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Speaker 1: into how much my kids loved the office.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great. But I think that for me,

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Speaker 1: there was something really powerful about that combination because I

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Speaker 1: did like to have adventures, but mostly I was a provincial,

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Speaker 1: small town girl, and I liked being able to drive

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Speaker 1: down the street or walk down the street and know

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Speaker 1: who lived in every house. I didn't have to like them,

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Speaker 1: they'd never be my friend, but I knew their story

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Speaker 1: and that was very cool to me. So there it

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Speaker 1: was to me kind of a little nest, and you know,

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Speaker 1: God knows, again, it wasn't Maybury. There was definitely bad

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Speaker 1: behavior at times happening in Shrewsbury. But I liked that

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Speaker 1: familiarity of that kind of provincial town.

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Speaker 2: You eventually you went on to because you're a smarty

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Speaker 2: pants American university there in d C. Now, were you

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Speaker 2: into the punk scene there?

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Speaker 1: No, But again because I was only into shratnel, no shrapnel,

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Speaker 1: no punk. They're completely entwined, intertwined for me. So but

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Speaker 1: I was always into music. I mean I did. I

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Speaker 1: went to see the Remote, Like you know, I was

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Speaker 1: definitely in the Ramones camp. I went to see the

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Speaker 1: Ramones a few times and live in d C. But

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Speaker 1: I always went to hear music always. But I did

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Speaker 1: cross all genres when I got to d C. That's

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Speaker 1: a kind of more Southern leaning city obviously than New York.

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Speaker 1: So there was all like NRBQ, and there was Dave

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Speaker 1: Matthews and all these other kind of sounds and bands

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Speaker 1: that I was going to see live.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. Actually that's a lie. I do.

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Speaker 2: I do know exactly how old you are, because I

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Speaker 2: have papers right here that tell me, so we're roughly

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Speaker 2: the same age. So yeah, that Dave Matthews band, you know,

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Speaker 2: coming out of Virginia. You know, that was sort of

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Speaker 2: you know, they were playing when I was in college.

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Speaker 2: They were playing there at the University of Virginia. I

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Speaker 2: had a friend there and that's how I got introduced

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Speaker 2: to him, and that was a really really good time there.

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Speaker 2: What's always curious that I like to talk to people

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Speaker 2: about who end up focusing on something and having success

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Speaker 2: and excellence in it. You know, you're in an intellectual family.

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Speaker 2: You're interested in music culture clearly as well. When for

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Speaker 2: you did you start on the path of you know,

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Speaker 2: I know communications and broadcast journalism ended up being your focus.

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Speaker 2: Did you go to American for that or at what

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Speaker 2: point did you decide this was the direction you wanted

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Speaker 2: to go in.

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Speaker 1: So for me, there was an actual moment that there

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Speaker 1: was an actual moment where the epiphany, like the light

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Speaker 1: bulb went on. So it was I was fifteen years old,

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Speaker 1: it was after school. I was sitting on the sofa

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Speaker 1: and I was watching Phil Donahue. Okay, and Phil Donahue

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Speaker 1: had this daily afternoon talk show that was the bomb.

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Speaker 1: I mean I loved the Field Donahue show as a teenager,

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Speaker 1: and I was watching it, and truly I had one

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Speaker 1: of those aha moments where I was like, what's that

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Speaker 1: job called? What do you call that? Because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like TV star, it was something different. It wasn't an actor.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like, what is that that he's doing? And

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Speaker 1: I thought, what is that job called? And they pay

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Speaker 1: him to do that? And I found out that that

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Speaker 1: was called broadcast journalists. And from the moment I figured

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Speaker 1: out that broadcast journalism was a profession, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing that. That's what I want to do. Like

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Speaker 1: I saw him with his microphone like running around the studio,

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Speaker 1: you know, like asking people questions. Caller is the caller there?

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Speaker 1: Like it was all so fantastic. And so I only

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Speaker 1: applied to colleges that had TV stations, which now they're

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Speaker 1: like ubiquitous, but at the time there were truly only

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Speaker 1: a handful of them. I mean I could take them

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Speaker 1: off Syracuse, Ithaca, you know, American University, Northwestern and the

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Speaker 1: day I got to American walked into the team, I

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Speaker 1: was like, huh, I'd like to be a TV reporter

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Speaker 1: and they were like, uh yeah, you and two hundred

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Speaker 1: other freshmen you go back and get l so but

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Speaker 1: that was my north star from that moment A fifteen

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Speaker 1: that was it.

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Speaker 2: That is so interesting. I mean I remember watching Phil

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Speaker 2: Donahue as well, like with I don't know why, like

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Speaker 2: that's like a grandparent's memory. I don't know, like they

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Speaker 2: loved Phil Donahue. Yes, but in a way I would

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Speaker 2: argue that Phil Donahue, as great as he was and

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Speaker 2: as entertaining as that was, and he was legit, he

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Speaker 2: is a little bit of the gateway drug into where

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Speaker 2: we sit today. I don't know if any of these

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Speaker 2: people are your friends. But and then you start going

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Speaker 2: into like Heraldo or Maury Covid. Sure, yeah, word tu

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Speaker 2: you I.

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Speaker 1: Actually agree with you. Phil Donahue, I would say, was

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Speaker 1: still on the you know better Angels side of that

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Speaker 1: of that continuum. And I do love her although and

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Speaker 1: he is a great in real life. He is a

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Speaker 1: great guy in of total mention, and I do love

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Speaker 1: him dearly. But yeah, Phil donaghu was the beginning of

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Speaker 1: that continuum that leads right to like a chair being

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Speaker 1: broken over somebody's head, right, or a paternity test on

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Speaker 1: the Mari Povid show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's very interesting. I mean he was much

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Speaker 2: more asking questions as opposed to telling you what the

399
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Speaker 2: thing should be, which I think in a weird way

400
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Speaker 2: that that's what we need more of.

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Speaker 1: Well totally. I mean that's what journalism at its best is,

402
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Speaker 1: which is you're a conduit. You know, you're a conduit

403
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Speaker 1: and a platform for other people's stories, and so you

404
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Speaker 1: have the microphone and I've never not realized what a

405
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Speaker 1: powerful platform and position that is. But you're supposed to

406
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Speaker 1: just be a conduit. But then you know, a cable

407
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Speaker 1: news comes along, and then we it turns out in

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours. When you have twenty four hour news,

409
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Speaker 1: you can squeeze in some opinions, and you can squeeze

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Speaker 1: in some of your own analysis and everything, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, it does bleed into those other things.

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Speaker 4: I agree.

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Speaker 2: Was it tough for you? I mean, you know, you

414
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Speaker 2: keep talking about shrapnel. You didn't have the mohawk, but

415
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Speaker 2: you know, so you're moving from at least being a

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Speaker 2: fan of that into sort of what is perceived as

417
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Speaker 2: sort of an ultra clean cut kind of identity in

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Speaker 2: broadcast journalism. Was that a difficult change for you or no,

419
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Speaker 2: did you just jump right into that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there's something out wearing the mask of

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Speaker 1: an anchor person. You know, anchor people are so kind

422
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Speaker 1: of well cooffed, and there's so much makeup that there's

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Speaker 1: a veneer, you know, by again by design, because we're

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Speaker 1: just supposed to be the messengers, you know, the conduits.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that for a long time, there

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Speaker 1: was something comforting for me about being able to get

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Speaker 1: behind the mask, the anchor mask, and not have to

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Speaker 1: reveal too much vulnerability, you know, you like cake on

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Speaker 1: that makeup, and then I'm ready for the day, Like

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Speaker 1: I can ask anybody that's my armor, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then I can go to battle and ask anybody tough

432
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: questions because I'm kind of behind that mask, the anchor mask.

433
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: And then what started to happen for me personally was

434
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: I started to feel that the mask was a little

435
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: off putting and a bit of a distance from the

436
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: people that I was interviewing. And because I had a childhood,

437
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: well a teenagehood filled with some struggle and challenges, and

438
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: there were times I was broken, there were times I

439
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 1: had nowhere to live, and there were times that I

440
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: struggled with mental health. I started being tempted to say

441
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: to people, I feel you, I've been there, you know,

442
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: but I can't say that. That's not what news people

443
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: are supposed to be doing. I mean, part of my uh,

444
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: I guess impulse for writing the book was peeling off

445
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: that mask and showing that even your you know well

446
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: quaft Anchor has a story of survival and of challenges

447
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: and obstacles and everything. Because I think that we often

448
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: people can project onto us all the time. You know,

449
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: we are tabula rasa that people project onto And what

450
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: they project onto me often is I've never had a

451
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: hard day in my life. You know, I've never had

452
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: a struggle, and you know that's just not the truth

453
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: I have.

454
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: Do you feel like that should be different or do

455
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: you feel like that if people knew more about you,

456
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: or if you projected yourself more through that mask, that

457
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: makes you part of the story. I'm trying to figure

458
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: out like the danger of that for you or why

459
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: you don't do that.

460
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: I think people have always been able to smell something

461
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: on me, and I think it's CBGB's no. I think

462
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: I think that people get a whiff of something, that

463
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: there is an untold story or that I am relatable,

464
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: but they can't put their finger on it. I mean,

465
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: people do think that I am relatable in a way,

466
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: so I hope that it's coming through the mask. But

467
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, we're taught, we are taught in journalism

468
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: school don't make yourself the story. You know, that's just

469
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: not what you're there for. You're there for other people's stories,

470
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: in the service of other people's voices. So we're really

471
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: taught not to do that. That's part of the discomfort.

472
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: But for everybody, it's individual. Not everybody is comfortable opening

473
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: the pages of their diaries and letting the world read it,

474
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: of course. But for me, I just believe it's time

475
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: to build bridges. I mean, because of where we are

476
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: right now, because I've seen so much discord in the

477
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: cable news world and in news and everybody in their silos.

478
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just doing my own little part to

479
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: build a bridge and show that we're all, you know,

480
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: more similar than we are different.

481
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me about some of your earliest jobs either

482
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: your first how you got that or what kind of

483
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: stories were you covering?

484
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: Oh, my early you mean my earliest TV jobs. I

485
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: was about to tell you about Friendlies. I was about

486
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: to tell you about making Jim dandies at Friendlies. Okay, okay.

487
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: So so I was a waitress before I was a reporter,

488
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: and that restaurant work. Did you ever do restaurant work?

489
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 3: Run?

490
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they didn't trust me with much. I was

491
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: a host. I think when I signed up for it,

492
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much less money you make than

493
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: everybody else.

494
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: Because you don't get tipps.

495
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I I was a host. I was a

496
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: host of a very popular busy place. I wasn't doing nothing. Yeah,

497
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: I don't think I had the patience for be a waiter.

498
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: But anyway, I see, all right, Well, maybe from your

499
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: even brief stint in restaurant work, you know that it's

500
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 1: just such a character building experience, you know. And so

501
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: at Friendli's was my childhood haunt as a child in Shrewsbury,

502
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 1: New Jersey, and then as a teenager if we had

503
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: the munchies or something, and then I ended up working there.

504
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: As my mother called it, might come up and and

505
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: so you know, like scooping ice cream and everything. I

506
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: think very fondly back to that and how it was

507
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: character building. But if you're talking about my first reporter jobs,

508
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: those are also character building.

509
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

510
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean I made so many mistakes and they were

511
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: so mortifying. I started at American University.

512
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: On that on the TV station that was there, so

513
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: you did.

514
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: Eventually I elbowed my way, and yes, I elbowed eventually

515
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: my way. And after they'd given up on everybody else,

516
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: like I had to audition along with like two hundred

517
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: other more talented kids, and then like those kids, you

518
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: know what happens. There's like this weeding out process, and

519
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: some kids realized like ooh, I don't want to stand

520
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: in a snowstorm or like outside of the rain or

521
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: cover some crappy story. But I'm like, I do you know?

522
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: So I sucked. That's here's the upshot. I sucked. This

523
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: was not a natural fit for me. I did you know.

524
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: I had to learn how to do a stand up

525
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: where you talk into the microphone and don't look petrified.

526
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: And I was like white knuckling it. I would be

527
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: somebody like there are one take wonders. I was like

528
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: a forty eight take one, like to the point where

529
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: my cameraman would be like, they all suck, but we're

530
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: gonna have to stick with one of them, you know,

531
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: like I can't take another second of this. So it

532
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: was really through just repetition that I ended up getting better.

533
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: And then and then one of my first jobs was

534
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: for the crime show America's Most Wanted, and I loved

535
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: every second of that. I loved I love crime reporting.

536
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: I love the criminal mind, you know, trying to crack it.

537
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: I loved finding fugitives. I loved jailhouse interviews with mass murderers.

538
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: They would send me in to interview them, and I

539
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: just it was a great training ground.

540
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: Wow, that's cool.

541
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: It was really cool.

542
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah, I did something you said before

543
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: though I had a conversation. I've become friends with Dylan

544
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: Dreyer and the whole standing outside in the middle of

545
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: a hurricane thing is the dumbest thing.

546
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: Awful.

547
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: It's awful.

548
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I mean, when I was eighteen

549
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: and nineteen twenty, I would have done anything, and I

550
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: would have been like, put me in coach. But now

551
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: when there's a hurricane, I like, hide under my desk

552
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: so they think I'm gone.

553
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: Well, it's even just like your pal Anderson Cooper does

554
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: it all the time. I mean, obviously they don't want

555
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: me producing these shows, but I want them to know

556
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: that the consumer at home who are watching and Anderson's like, hey,

557
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: the entire area has been evacuated. No one is here.

558
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: We're here on the beach in North Carolina, and you're like,

559
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: get out of what are you doing? Why are you there?

560
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: It's so frustrating, stressful. It is stressful. But I mean,

561
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: I must tell you viewership does go up.

562
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: It probably doesn't, but is that like watching a reality

563
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: television show that's terrible that you're watching to make fun

564
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: of it, Like that's the thing. Is the viewership high

565
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: or it doesn't matter.

566
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's train wrap watching or pity

567
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: watching or thank God I'm not out in the elements watching,

568
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: or just Anderson in a wet T shirt washing. I

569
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: don't know, but I know that it's successful.

570
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: It's successful. Okay. You in nineteen ninety eight, you started

571
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: Fox News in Boston. How did you get that job?

572
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: So? Interestingly, my co anchor from American University I worked

573
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: my way up from reporter outside in the freezing range

574
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: to anchoring at American University. And my co anchor, who

575
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: was a really talented guy. He had all of the

576
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: natural skill that I did not possess. He did. He

577
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: was a correspondent at Fox and Fox had just started.

578
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: Fox was going to be this new national cable news network.

579
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: He was telling me about it and the great perks,

580
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: and he had his own designated producer, and he had

581
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: his own cameraman and they would, you know, travel the

582
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: country and tell these stories. And he was like, you

583
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: need to send a tape there, and I said, that

584
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: does sound good, you know the show and his last words.

585
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: And so the show that I had been on in

586
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: Boston and National NBC Morning Show had just been canceled.

587
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: So I was freelancing at all sorts of different crazy

588
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: shows and looking for a steady gig. And the way

589
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: my friend Rick described it sounded fantastic. I sent a

590
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: resume tape to the vice president in charge of programming,

591
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: and I was hired, not sight unseen because they'd seen

592
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: my tape, but voice unspoken to I mean, there was

593
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: never an interview, no interview, no interview, no phone call.

594
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: My agent called and said, like, they want to hire you,

595
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: and I said, fantastic. And it was a great salary

596
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: and there were great perks, and I was going to

597
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: live in Boston, which is a town that I love

598
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: and always felt was home. And so it was all great,

599
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: and it was just as my friend promised. It was

600
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: great for a couple of years, and I was traveling

601
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: around New England and doing all sorts of cool stories

602
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: on Harvard medical breakthroughs or fall foliage or whatever. And

603
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: then slowly it started morphing into something different. And I mean,

604
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: I think what happened is that Roger Els sort of

605
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: realized that there was this large chunk of the viewing

606
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: population that felt that their voice wasn't being echoed or

607
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: heard on other networks, and that there was like this

608
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: beachhead that he could kind of corner. And slowly, after

609
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: about two years, all of my stories started. I started

610
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: being assigned stories with a conservative slant, and some of

611
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: my scripts started being changed. They wanted me to change

612
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: some wording, They wanted the guests that I interviewed to

613
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: be different. And it became, you know, it morphed into

614
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: something like what it is today.

615
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I mean, this is such a long

616
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: time ago. Now obviously in your mind doesn't remember things

617
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: as they were or whatever. So Fox News you believe changed,

618
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: which I trust you, by the way, that's not a challenge.

619
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: But around two thousand or so it became different than

620
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: what it was before, like that specific voice that is

621
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: now that's famous for whatever. That actually changed. While you

622
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: were there, you palpably felt that the people you were

623
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: talking to and the stories that you were telling had

624
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: a different slant. Sure before interesting.

625
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: Sure, and maybe that was always Roger's grand plan, I'm

626
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: not sure. Or maybe he started to see where their

627
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: bread was buttered and that it really the times that

628
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: we did stories with a more conservative angle started really

629
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: resonating in the ratings you can see. As executives, you

630
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: get minute by minute ratings, so you can see exactly

631
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: what stories are resonating and where viewership falls off. But

632
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: at some point I know that Roger, and I know

633
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: this because he told me this explicitly. Roger started playing

634
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: to the crowd, you know, I mean, all of Fox

635
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: started playing to the crowd. And once they figured it

636
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: out that it was winning and that they were resonating

637
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: with this conservative, more right wing audience. They just gunned

638
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: it for that viewership. And then that's those were the

639
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: stories that we started doing to the point where, you know,

640
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: there were times that I was, let's say, hosting the

641
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: morning show, and every single story was from a conservative angle.

642
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: There was no other Like it would be just how

643
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: many different ways can you slice and dice Barack Obama

644
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: in one hour? And I fought it to the best

645
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: that I could. It's hard to fight city Hall. I

646
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: would say to Roger Els, don't you think that gets

647
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: a little redundant. Don't you think it's a little monotonous

648
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: to have the same angle every hour? Like maybe I

649
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 1: could try to be a voice for a different angle

650
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: or a monarch. He was like, you know, he thundered

651
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: at me, you will, I will not have you lose

652
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 1: the audience. You are not to do that. And so

653
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: that just told me that they were all in for

654
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: the audience. And as we now know, I mean, if

655
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: you fast forward ten years or fifteen years from that,

656
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: and you know from the dominion lawsuit, they ended up saying,

657
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: did you hear Tucker Carlson and you hear people in

658
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: the paper, I mean, in the documents of that lawsuit, say,

659
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: got to think about the viewers. You got to give

660
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: the viewers what they want. We're here for the audience, don't.

661
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: You can't say that the audience won't like it. You

662
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: can't say that that's what they do.

663
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I mean you truly, truly, you have

664
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: enlightened me because I think that I don't know where

665
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: it's been put in my consciousness or who taught me

666
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: this or whatever, but that it was Murdoch was conservative,

667
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: so Fox is conservative, and maybe that's true as well,

668
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: but they were able to keep more of a you know,

669
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: not be not as biased for a while. But that's

670
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 2: so interesting.

671
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean in my in my experience, like ratings

672
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: were their religion, and so you know, I really think

673
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: that if Roger it did dovetail with their ideology. Okay,

674
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: so it all works out because Roger and Rubert Murdock

675
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: are conservative, so it ends up dovetailing, so they it

676
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: works for them. However, I mean, Roger also really liked

677
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: the whatever that whatever that dog show is, you know

678
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: that like that fancy dog show every year where poodle's

679
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: trot around.

680
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: Like the Westminster Dog Show.

681
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: Like if the ratings had shown that every single segment

682
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: could have been a trotting around poodle. That's what Fox

683
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 1: would be today. But the ratings just happened to show

684
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: that the viewers really liked conservative talking points.

685
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: Fascinating? Is that in part why you moved on?

686
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 3: Yeah?

687
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, I felt like I mean, I got in

688
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: trouble all the time. It's not fun at work to

689
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: be constantly called to the woodshed and in trouble. So

690
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: Roger for.

691
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: Saying things on the air, you mad, yeah.

692
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: Oh yes, ye're saying things on the air. But sometimes

693
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: Roger would call me to his office and be very

694
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: disgruntled about the way I was sitting. He told me

695
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: he could tell I was uncomfortable with whatever conservative talking

696
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: point that we happened to be doing that day because

697
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: of the way I was sitting. He told me that

698
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: it looked like my body had been botoxed. And I

699
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: was like, you know, Roger, I said, it's very cold

700
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: in that studio. I'm freezing. He was like, nope, nope, nope,

701
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: that wasn't it. It's because you were uncomfortable. And I

702
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: was like, hm, I guess he can read minds because

703
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: I was uncomfortable and so it's not good to be

704
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with what you're having to report on. And I stopped.

705
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: I started realizing it wasn't really news. I started not

706
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: thinking that it was serving the viewers to be fed

707
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: this all the time. I mean, I think it is

708
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: interesting to hear conservative viewpoints, for sure, and I think

709
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: that smart conservative voices are really important for the democracy.

710
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: But we weren't always doing smart conservative voices. We were

711
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: doing just fear mongering, you know, fear mongering about a

712
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: new mosque that was going to be built somewhere. And

713
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: I didn't think that that was helpful for anybody. So

714
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: I was uncomfortable. Roger could see that I was uncomfortable.

715
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: We fought a lot about it, or basically I listened

716
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: to him yelling that's not sustainable.

717
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you moved to CNN in twenty fourteen, did

718
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: you feel like you saw opportunities there that you were

719
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: not able to do at Fox News.

720
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: Definitely? Definitely. I mean when I got to CNN, it

721
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: was just a garden of opportunity. To this day, I

722
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: don't know how to explain it. Jeff Zucker was our

723
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: president at that time, and I have asked him about this,

724
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: and he can't explain. I mean, he's never taken a

725
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: time to explain it to me, but a lot of

726
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: us have talked to each other about this. Somehow, there

727
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: was enough of the pie to go around for everyone.

728
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: There were a lot of us, but I got to

729
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: sit down with Hillary Clinton and do a big one

730
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: on one. Somehow, Dana Bash got a very cool interview

731
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: with whoever she was going after, Anderson Cooper got to

732
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: go stand in a hurricane, you know, John Berman was

733
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: going to cover you know, a terrorist attack in Paris.

734
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: Like there was so much news happening, and all of

735
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: us got to have these special moments. And when I

736
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: got there, it was just like my career opened up

737
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: and I got to do all of these super cool things,

738
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: including you know, a host of the morning show there

739
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: for seven years on it's you know, kind of a

740
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: very very successful run of it. So I was I

741
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: was really delighted because I did feel like, you know,

742
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: a bit of a put on the shelf at Fox,

743
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: Like Roger stopped giving me opportunities and everything because he didn't,

744
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: as he said, trust me.

745
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: Interesting. You know where Jeff Zucker was before he was CNN, NBC.

746
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 2: He was he was in charge when the Office came

747
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: on the air, he was.

748
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: So it was did he decide that like that would

749
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: give it the green light or was there somebody else?

750
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: You know, you know, I should have done some research

751
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: on this, because I'm not sure to what degree. I mean,

752
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: I've told the story. He was not a fan of

753
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: the show. He was not a fan of the show.

754
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: He didn't get it.

755
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: He didn't get it, but yet he green lit it

756
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: or something.

757
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 2: Well, he had someone that was under him who really

758
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: championed for it, but he did. He did it. He

759
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: had a few people that he trusted outside that were

760
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: big fans of it, and a lot of the younger

761
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: people at the network, like interns and assistants, were big

762
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: fans of it. But it's always interesting to me.

763
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: I think that that's I mean, to me, that's the

764
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: mark of a great executive, which is like I don't

765
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: necessarily get it, but all these guys in the demo do,

766
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: Let's try it that.

767
00:42:47,960 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

768
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: So this is sort of the lead up kind of

769
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: the now time for the twenty sixteen presidential campaigns. Did

770
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: you feel like, because of your time at Fox you

771
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: had sort of a unique perspective on coverage that you

772
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 2: had done previously, or what kind of coverage they were

773
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: going to have, and what CNN was doing, Like how

774
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 2: did you fit in there to that very specific time.

775
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely felt that I had a bigger, a

776
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: wider lens than other people because I had been at Fox.

777
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: And I still feel that way. I still feel that

778
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: my years at Fox were really valuable and really helped

779
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: inform a worldview that I now try to carry into

780
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: all of my stories because I think that I can

781
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: pretty easily channel you know, that Roger Ayles worldview and

782
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: the viewers of Fox who were always you know, really

783
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: kind to me and I got to talk to and

784
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, interview a lot, and so I still feel

785
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: that way. I tap into that all the time, and

786
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: when I got to CNN, I think it was super

787
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: helpful because you know, we are all in our bubbles,

788
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: not by design. I mean, it's not like everybody tries

789
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: to be myopic or in their own bubble, but you

790
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: are a product of your surroundings and your geography, and

791
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: so you know, by that time, there wasn't a lot

792
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: of crossover between CNN and Fox, and there weren't a

793
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: lot of people going back and forth who had worked

794
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: in different places, so I was very glad that I

795
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: could bring I think, like a kind of a bit

796
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: of a wider aperture to my reporting at CNN.

797
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very cool. You mentioned it before the twenty

798
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: four hour news cycle, which is intense, and I think, Look,

799
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of us consumers of news

800
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: get fatigued because the news is NonStop and it's not

801
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: always great. And I know for myself I will put

802
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: the phone on silent or to turn the notifications off.

803
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: This is something in your job you can't really do.

804
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: So how do you deal with that, that sort of

805
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: constant barrage of information and news that's coming to you,

806
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: which oftentimes is not good or at least positive, uplifting.

807
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of those stories. How do

808
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: you deal with that day in and day out.

809
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I commend you for turning off

810
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: the notifications and the phone sometimes, and everybody has to

811
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: do that, because I do think that we are in

812
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: such a deluge of information and there's so many different

813
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 1: delivery systems that it is affecting people's mental health for sure.

814
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the research shows that. So you used

815
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: to be able to just turn on the TV and

816
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: turn it off at your when you'd had enough. And

817
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: now I just think that the drinking from a fire

818
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 1: hose is way too much for a lot of our

819
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: nervous systems. So I'm very good at compartmentalizing. I always

820
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: have been good at compartmentalizing. I'm able to kind of

821
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: see a story for a story and recognize that I'm

822
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: here as the again conduit to tell that story or

823
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: the platform, and I don't really take it home with me.

824
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there have been times that I've had to

825
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: tell very tragic, awful stories and they sick with me

826
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: a little bit longer. But I really try not to

827
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:44,479
Speaker 1: internalize those because then I would be useless at my job.

828
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: So I'm very good at being present, you know, for

829
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: however many hours the red light is on being there

830
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: telling the story, trying to get the facts, and then

831
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: after that it is very easy for me to come

832
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: home and turn on the office or some I mean, seriously,

833
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: TV has always been like a real companion of mine,

834
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: right and I have often used it as an escape,

835
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: you know, and I can do that.

836
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: You're now reporting on the whole story with Anderson Cooper.

837
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: These stories are relevant and important, but a little bit

838
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: of a different kind of journalism than sort of that

839
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: daily news cycle. Are you enjoying that?

840
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah?

841
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: I enjoyed a lot. That's how that was my first

842
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: I first started with long form, as we call it,

843
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: which is not the kind of breaking news or the

844
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: minute and a half news package that you see on

845
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: local news. So America's Most Wanted, for instance, would tell

846
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: these long yarns about these crime stories. So that was

847
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: how I first was true. Well, actually my first job

848
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: was for Ted Copple. He had a production company and

849
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: he did these documentaries, so those were hour long deep

850
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: doves into a particular topic. So this is a return

851
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 1: for me to that, which is an hour long and

852
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: we dive into one topic. And I really like that

853
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: kind of storytelling because obviously you can't tell everything in

854
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: a minute and a half, and breaking news is just

855
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: a different skill set. I like breaking news also, but

856
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: it's a different muscle. This what I'm doing now requires

857
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: more research and writing, and I do really like love

858
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: the aspect of script writing and book writing or any

859
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: kind of writing. So it's very nice to step off

860
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: the gerbil wheel of that kind of grind, you know,

861
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: particularly when you talk about gearing up for the next

862
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: presidential election. I'm very happy right now to have stepped

863
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: off that breathless merry go round, you know, and anybody

864
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: who has the energy to do it, I applaud you.

865
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 1: But I'm getting a little respite right now.

866
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I watch that show. I also like

867
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: on ESPN Outside the Lines, which does the same thing.

868
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: And I don't know, for how many years I have

869
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 2: been a DVR do you would still say that of

870
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 2: sixty minutes? It is that longer form stories that it's

871
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: often not telling you exactly what's happening right now. But

872
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: when people like you and your producers and all of

873
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: these shows are choosing these stories, they do shine a

874
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 2: light and illuminate in greater detail, a story that does

875
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: resonate with what's happening in the world today.

876
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: And I like that me too. I'm a DVR. Also,

877
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: you've just coined that phrase for all eternity.

878
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: Well, let's just say I tvoed it. I know that's wrong.

879
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: I know TVO is done stream Maybe it's just streaming now.

880
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. I can watch it on streaming.

881
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: But I do DVR it, I do TV are it?

882
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 1: So I just don't know how to turn that into

883
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: a verb. But I guess we are turning that. Yeah,

884
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: So sixteen minutes CBS Sunday Morning, same thing. Like I

885
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 1: love that storytelling. It's so pleasant, you know, CBS Sunday Morning.

886
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: And I think that I feel smarter after those shows

887
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: and I've learned something and breaking news serves its purpose.

888
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: But you know, I often feel like my brain has

889
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: been fried after breaking news or you know, it's just

890
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: it does something different to your cells than just sitting

891
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: back and like learning about something new.

892
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 2: You talked about doing research and doing writing. We talked

893
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: about a little earlier, your new memoir that is breaking

894
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 2: as we speak, Combat Love a Jersey Girls, Search for Home.

895
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: How deep did you have to go into your own

896
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: remembrances or recollections for these stories or was this the

897
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: kind of book that you have been gradually writing sections

898
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: in your brain as you thought of things for a

899
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: long time.

900
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: Both, I mean, Brian, both these are stories that were

901
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: rattling around in my brain since they happened. I tend

902
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: to write episodes. First. I write just a story, an episode,

903
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: and then I later try to glue it together and

904
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: figure out what the theme is. That's presenting itself. But

905
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who's a great literary agent, told

906
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: me years ago, you know, if you're going to write

907
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: a memoir, you kind of have to go there. You

908
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: kind of have to leave it all on the table.

909
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: And you know you should if you really want to

910
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: do that, you should just be prepared to do that.

911
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: And so that was a longer process. I can write

912
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: a story about a funny night where I snuck backstage

913
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: at the Ramones concert and the hilarity that ensued back there.

914
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: I can write that, But what were the feelings underneath,

915
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: and what was the motivation underneath doing that? And what

916
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: is the kind of if there's a darker shadow of

917
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: all of these what seemingly might be fun stories, what

918
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: is that? So that took more years to on earth

919
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: and excavate you know what it really like. There is

920
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: a part of this book it's like gen X Misadventures

921
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: of Music and as we said, you know, free range time.

922
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: And then there's the story of searching for home, you know,

923
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: and searching for stability and feeling lonely and feeling deep

924
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: depression at times. And it took me many years to

925
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: weave those two stories together.

926
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: You talked earlier about wanting to give people an idea

927
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: of some of your struggles because of how you at

928
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: least perceive that you are viewed as a conduit and

929
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: as a blank canvas. I guess for delivering the news,

930
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: is that why you wanted to write this story, to

931
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: give people an idea of really who you are and

932
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 2: different things that you have gone through.

933
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: Well, there's a difference between writing your memoir and publishing

934
00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: your memoir.

935
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: Oh so you wrote it for you and now you're

936
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 2: publishing it for other people.

937
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I wrote it for me, and let's

938
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: be honest, I'm publishing it for me. But you can

939
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: write a memo. I mean I wrote it truly to

940
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: put the pieces back together. There were there was a

941
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: lot of unfinished business from my teenage years. I moved

942
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: a lot against my will. I lived in lots of

943
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: different towns and houses during a two year period. I

944
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to do any of that, and so sometimes

945
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: all of it was happening so fast that I never

946
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: I never adequately wrapped up one chapter, so to speak,

947
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: before moving on to the next. So there were all

948
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: of these stories rattling around in my head, and it

949
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: was very helpful and cathartic for me to write them down,

950
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: put them in a real order, go back and interview

951
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: the main players in these different episodes and check my

952
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: memory and make sure that it was all as intense

953
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: and technicolor as I thought it was. And so that

954
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: was a healing exercise for me. Now in terms of

955
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: publishing it, once I have Once I had the whole

956
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: story down in the book, then I had to make

957
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: a decision of do I really want to publish this thing?

958
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: And I feel like I don't know. I kind of

959
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: waited long enough that we are in a moment of

960
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: time with social media and with gen Z that you know,

961
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: they really peel back the curtain all the time. You know,

962
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: they're always sharing their feelings and everything, and so it

963
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: was kind of like I thought, why keep it a

964
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 1: secret at this point, you know, why keep it behind

965
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: the mask? Well, maybe it will help if I if

966
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 1: I let people know that there were some rock bottom

967
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: moments in my life too that I crawled through to

968
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: get to achieving my dream.

969
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: I think that's awesome. I mean, it's not even a

970
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 2: humble brag. It's a brag coming you know, I've written

971
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: a book myself so I know that there's an answer,

972
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: so you can't say you don't know because I had it.

973
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: You go back and you do these interviews, what moment

974
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 2: for you? And it may be your favorite because it's

975
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 2: the most painful. It might be your favorite because it

976
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: made you laugh. It might be your favorite because it

977
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: made you look really good. What moment for you is

978
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: your favorite in terms of having something illuminated based on

979
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,439
Speaker 2: talking to other people that sort of went against your

980
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: own memory. But feel like, hmm, you know what, that's

981
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: something I hadn't thought about before. But it's probably really true.

982
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: That's a good question. And Brian, you could only have

983
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 1: asked it because you went back, and I mean, I

984
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: know enough about your book and I have read and

985
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: I listened to one of your interviews where you talked

986
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: about trying to solve the mystery, you know, and that

987
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: really resonates with me. You were trying to solve the

988
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: mystery of what was the magic pixie dust? Yeah, it

989
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: was the office and why has it had this renaissance?

990
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: What was the magic? Because like, how can we bottle it?

991
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 3: You know?

992
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like what how did lightning strike at that moment?

993
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: And mine was also a mystery quest, you know, trying

994
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: to solve the mystery of why these teenage years were

995
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: so incandescent for me and why they were so vivid

996
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: and stuck around, stuck with me so much. And I

997
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: mean it was it was really fun for me to

998
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: go back and interview the main players. It got. It

999
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: gave me a chance to relive some of these moments and,

1000
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: as you say, to test my memory. And what I

1001
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: found is that my memory is fantastic.

1002
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

1003
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: I have a really good memory, because when I went

1004
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: back and I would be like, tell me, sometimes memories

1005
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: get diluted from telling the story too much or writing

1006
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: the story. It morphs. However, some of these memories were

1007
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: pristine because I had never spoken to the other person

1008
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 1: in this intense moment. Let's say, you know, there was

1009
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: a night I got stranded on a corner in Queens

1010
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: at like two in the morning, on some shitty, burned

1011
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 1: out corner, and the guy who stranded me we had

1012
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: never spoken of it again. Okay, so it had been

1013
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: you know, thirty five years, and I called him and said,

1014
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: can I take you to lunch and ask you a

1015
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: few questions? And I said, do you remember what happened

1016
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: on that night that we went d see shrapnel in

1017
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: Queens And he goes and like, again, we've never sun.

1018
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: He looks up and he goes, Oh, something fed up

1019
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: happened that that night, didn't it. I was like, Oh, yes,

1020
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: yeah it did. Like he remembered, ooh that was a bad,

1021
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: intense night, but he couldn't quite put his finger on

1022
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: exactly what had happened. Then I clued him in and

1023
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: then we took it from there and like we're able

1024
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: to piece it together. And so I guess the most

1025
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: surprising thing that happened is that I had a best

1026
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: friend during that time. In the book, she's called Vivian.

1027
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: She was wild, she was dangerous. She was an incredibly

1028
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: magnetic person, and I loved her and I loved going

1029
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: back and thinking about all the adventures that we had.

1030
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: And she said to me at some point, so she

1031
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: was she was an addicts when we were teenager. She

1032
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: was an alcoholic and then became a hard drug addict.

1033
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: And I was like, ohhe remember that time that we

1034
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: did this, and I'd be like writing it down. She said,

1035
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, Allison, it's not as fun for me to

1036
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: remember these times as it is for you, and I

1037
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: was like, oh right, and she said I really wasn't well,

1038
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: and like she had to just kind of take me

1039
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: by the shoulders and be like this is all nostalgic

1040
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: and fun and games for you, but like I lived it,

1041
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, and that was really that allowed a different

1042
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: layer of the book again, just the deeper layer. You know.

1043
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: There's the stories and then there's the what was really happening.

1044
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, fascinating. Everybody. Check it out. Combat Love a Jersey Girls,

1045
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: Search for Home. Alison, You're awesome.

1046
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: You're awesome.

1047
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have one met you and two

1048
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: gotten a chance for you to be so candid and

1049
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 2: open about your life and career. I can't wait to

1050
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: read the book.

1051
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ron. I can't wait for you to read

1052
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: the book. I look forward to hearing what you think

1053
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: of it, and I really look forward to our paths crossing.

1054
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll find you on my l a book tour

1055
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: and come find the little the little fancy town that

1056
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: you live in.

1057
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: Out the Connecticut of southern California. By the way, that

1058
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 2: is now going to be my answer, Like I have,

1059
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 2: I have finally figured it out where I live in

1060
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: the Connecticut of Southern California. Allison, thank you so much,

1061
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: and good luck with the book, and listen, take care

1062
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 2: of yourself this year. You know it's going to be

1063
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: a struggle. Take care of yourself. And yes, our paths

1064
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: will cross soon for sure, I hope. So thanks for everything, Allison,

1065
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: thank you so much. That was fascinating. I really enjoyed

1066
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 2: our conversation. It was great getting know you. I learned

1067
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 2: so much today about you and also how the news

1068
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 2: industry works. But most of all, I learned about apparently

1069
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 2: the greatest band of all time. And I'm going to

1070
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 2: go right now listen to Shrapnel to see what all

1071
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 2: the fuss is about. Listeners, you stay tuned as we

1072
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 2: will continue to bring you breaking news, but for now,

1073
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 2: have a great week. Off The Beat is hosted and

1074
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 2: executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer

1075
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers

1076
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 2: are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent

1077
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Ali

1078
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Speaker 2: Amir Sahi. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by

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Speaker 2: the one and Only Creed Bratton,