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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show, Ladies and gentlemen. My name is null.

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Speaker 1: They call me been, our our compatriot, our third Amigo's

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Speaker 1: fallen in battle. Yes, Matt Frederick has been temporarily afflicted

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Speaker 1: with a virus, which he assures us is neither terminal

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Speaker 1: nor at this point contagious. However, he's taking some R

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Speaker 1: and R and will be returning very soon. He's with

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Speaker 1: us in spirit as soon as he convalesces. Yes, as

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Speaker 1: soon as he convalesces and re reconstitutes. Uh. We're all,

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Speaker 1: of course, joined by our super producer Tristan McNeil, and

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Speaker 1: most importantly you are here, which makes this stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. No, this is a a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a different episode for you and I,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, it's a little I don't know, did

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Speaker 1: you ever? That's kind of the buffer I feel. I

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Speaker 1: feel a little bit exposed the way you're looking at me.

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Speaker 1: Did uh did you ever go to a did you

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Speaker 1: ever go to a charter school? I went to a

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Speaker 1: summer camp into a summer camp. It's the same thing

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Speaker 1: as I guess, it's not the same thing. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to teach me about charter schools. I understand it,

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Speaker 1: like basic view of what charter schools are. But we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to go a little micro But no, Ben,

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Speaker 1: I did not. I went to a magnet school. Why

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Speaker 1: it's not the same thing. But it is, you know,

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Speaker 1: publicly funded. Technically it's a public school. But there's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what does amazing school get in unless you meet certain

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Speaker 1: criteria like you I had to sing Happy Birthday. Real well,

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Speaker 1: Tristan actually went to the same school. Yea behind the garden,

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Speaker 1: Me and test In, our old friends, a couple of magnets. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had magnetic personalities that played the violin, just painted

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Speaker 1: or something. I don't know what Tristan didn't Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: an artist, yeah, using the jazz band probably know what's

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Speaker 1: the charter. Yeah, So as as people know, regardless of

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Speaker 1: what country you live in, there are probably different specialized

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Speaker 1: versions of schools. Uh, and they are not separated by

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Speaker 1: grade level alone in the US, we have multiple types

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Speaker 1: of schools. There are magnet schools, right, type of public institution.

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Speaker 1: There are, of course public schools, they're private schools, they're

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Speaker 1: religious schools, and there are charter schools. Okay, So charter schools,

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Speaker 1: just like a public school, offer free tuition to children

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Speaker 1: who take these state mandated exams, but they're subject to

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Speaker 1: fewer rules, regulations and statutes than traditional schools. They also

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Speaker 1: receive less public funding and it's usually like a fixed

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Speaker 1: amount for pupil isn't a big part of it though?

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Speaker 1: That kids don't have to be zoned, like they don't

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Speaker 1: have to live specifically in the area that's zoned for

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Speaker 1: that particular school, right, Yeah. And they can be nonprofit,

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Speaker 1: they can also be for profit, so they have they

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Speaker 1: have wide variations within that within within that field. And

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Speaker 1: I know people are probably wondering, right, You're probably wondering,

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Speaker 1: why are the guys talking about charter schools? Promise you

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Speaker 1: there's a payoff, and it's a big and weird one.

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Speaker 1: It's it's really weird. So right now, there are a

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Speaker 1: little bit less than seven thousand charter schools in forty

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Speaker 1: two states and d C. That's of two thousand and sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and they have about three million students. They've been growing

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Speaker 1: like Gangbusters, especially into the current administration and the new

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Education. Isn't school choice? Isn't that a big

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Speaker 1: part of charter schools? Vouchers? And yeah, yeah, school vouchers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nail on the head. There's a big there's a big move,

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Speaker 1: and there has been for a number of years to

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Speaker 1: offer that choice. Because you know, for anyone who ever

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Speaker 1: has ever bought a house, one thing real estate agents

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Speaker 1: love to bring up is the school system. And there

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Speaker 1: will be a premium placed on a property because of

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Speaker 1: the zip code. Absolutely right, And this is something familiar

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Speaker 1: to anyone who has children, and we picked it out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I said to anyone who has parents, this issue has

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Speaker 1: or this practice of sending children to charter schools has

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Speaker 1: its proponents and its critics. Oh, we should also mention,

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Speaker 1: like a magnet school, they may provide a specialized curriculum. Right,

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Speaker 1: so you had you had a magnet school that focused

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Speaker 1: on arts, I would say, yeah, they could also focus

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Speaker 1: on mathematics, on on stem training, or on vocational training.

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Speaker 1: We're not here to argue the pros or cons about

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Speaker 1: charter schools. However, our special guests today came to came

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Speaker 1: to us off the air with an amazing and very

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Speaker 1: strange story about charter schools, not just here in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: but throughout the nation. And you may have heard us mentioned,

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Speaker 1: uh mentioned this guy on the show before, way back

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Speaker 1: in the day. But ladies and gentlemen, nol and I

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Speaker 1: would like to officially introduce you to uh stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. As intern Sam T. Garden, Greetings, everyone, Hey,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. So seriously, glad I

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Speaker 1: could be here. Do you agree with our our description

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Speaker 1: of charter schools? That seemed about right? I think it's

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Speaker 1: very accurate from my experience. Yes, Okay, Now, Sam, you

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Speaker 1: went to a charter school for a time, and when

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Speaker 1: you when you were at this charter school, it turned

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Speaker 1: out that not everything was as it seemed at the surface. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's correct. There are there are some things overall that

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Speaker 1: is we learned that. Hey, that's that's a little bit off,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit weird. Could you give us just

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Speaker 1: some examples, some initial examples. So some initial examples were

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Speaker 1: the high turnover rated teachers. We'd have some teachers we

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Speaker 1: very much liked, but suddenly they move on. There was

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Speaker 1: an international kind of themed like instead of like a

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Speaker 1: cheerlead group. We would have Turkish dance, UM, we'd have

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Speaker 1: some kind of interesting very big science projects and um

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Speaker 1: other things that we would go to competitions with. But

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Speaker 1: our teachers did a lot of the work. And then

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Speaker 1: you come to the science fair one day and you

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Speaker 1: can see a giant test the coil in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the gymnasium and be like, I don't think middle

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Speaker 1: schoolers built that. Things like that. Let's learn a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the teachers. Could you describe some of your instructors?

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Speaker 1: So some my, my, my instructors were a mixed of

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Speaker 1: um American teachers that you they hired from around the

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Speaker 1: area and a lot of international teachers from outside of

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Speaker 1: the countries, more specifically from Turkey. These teachers. A lot

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Speaker 1: of these teachers were very good. They were all very

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Speaker 1: intelligent people, highly qualified. But some of them were overqualified

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Speaker 1: and kind of didn't speak the language as well as

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Speaker 1: you hope. For example, I had one teacher who was

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Speaker 1: had a degree in uh I believe it was atomic

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Speaker 1: engineering or atomic energy, but taught like the kind of

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Speaker 1: the feel wellness class, understand your emotions class. It's like

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Speaker 1: I think you're you're you're way more qualified for this.

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Speaker 1: You're very intelligent, because that's sort of like when they

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Speaker 1: get the gym teacher to also teach, you know, driver's

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly, a little bit a little bit difference. We didn't.

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Speaker 1: She never taught me how to build a nuclear reactor,

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Speaker 1: which I was a little bit sad about. Or we'd

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Speaker 1: have some teachers who didn't really talk to us very much,

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Speaker 1: and all of our our work was just like worksheets

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Speaker 1: that they would hand out and we would hand them back,

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Speaker 1: and we didn't have a lot of interaction. It was

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Speaker 1: it was strange, we're creeping up on something. I think

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Speaker 1: we should go ahead and just this is a particular

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Speaker 1: type of chart, not not a tight necessarily, but almost

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Speaker 1: a chain. I guess you could call it, I think

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Speaker 1: network network. Because they all had different names that weren't

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Speaker 1: related to the brand chall we say, which is, uh,

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Speaker 1: how do you pronounce the movement? So they were called

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Speaker 1: things like the Busy Be Academy for you know, talented

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Speaker 1: youths and things like usually what high emphasis on math

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Speaker 1: and science, and like the one you attended was Fulton

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Speaker 1: Science Academy. Okay, so how could you argue with a

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Speaker 1: name like that. But I think you're absolutely correct, Nold.

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Speaker 1: That's what we need to establish because while these while

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Speaker 1: this network of hundreds of charter schools may have seemed unrelated,

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Speaker 1: they were in truth much more like limbs on a

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Speaker 1: branch or fingers on a hand, and the hand is

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Speaker 1: something that we just mentioned. The Ghoulan movements this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true. It sounds crazy and no offense, Sam, but uh, Nole,

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Speaker 1: Matt and I are pretty skeptical. At first. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: would have been you think you were skeptical. I was

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Speaker 1: in it and my mother was coming to me like

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Speaker 1: we might need to change schools, and like, what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? And then she started going into this

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Speaker 1: stuff and I was like are you? Are you okay? So? So,

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Speaker 1: the Ghula movement is an Islamic transnational movement led by

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Speaker 1: a religious figure from Turkey named Fetla Gulon, and he

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Speaker 1: lives in exile in Pennsylvania currently and the Poconos. Yes,

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Speaker 1: just so, and he um. He is considered by some

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Speaker 1: to be the second most powerful man in Turkey, or

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Speaker 1: formerly the second most powerful, between one and four million followers.

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah, not just in the U S and Turkey,

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Speaker 1: but across the world. Because the school that Sam went

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Speaker 1: to turned out is one of these nodes in the

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Speaker 1: network and not in any way rare. That's the scariest

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Speaker 1: part because because this this school functions uh as what

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Speaker 1: the opponents would call a front or a um almost

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Speaker 1: a month away to move money exactly, and uh this

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Speaker 1: this movement. Like most people, if you're listening, when you

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Speaker 1: hear something described as a movement, at what point do

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Speaker 1: you does it get to be a movement? Yeah? Right?

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Speaker 1: And and his numbers game good? Is it bad? Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean four people is a movement? As a synchron

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Speaker 1: together in a line. You can look pretty intimidating a

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Speaker 1: group of four walking, But I think you hit the

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Speaker 1: nail on the head there. That's a group of people.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you need at least eight to twelve

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Speaker 1: to be a movement. See I'm I am relately joking,

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Speaker 1: but even that seems low to me. Like a movement

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Speaker 1: needs to be what like a like a revolution, like

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Speaker 1: a mini right, right, there's a change. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: there's a counter terrorism definition of it. We could That's

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Speaker 1: a turn that gets thrown on in politics a lot

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Speaker 1: like that during the last election. You know, our President

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Speaker 1: kept referring to his pain as a movement, right, And

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Speaker 1: I guess a lot of supporters of political candidates would be,

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Speaker 1: like the so called Bernie Bros. Would be, I guess

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Speaker 1: a movement. There's definitely a number here. Let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more just to paint the scenery of what

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Speaker 1: the Ghoulon movement is. These people who are making money

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Speaker 1: off these schools and employing each other in these schools.

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Speaker 1: That's those. Those two things are all true. Those they

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Speaker 1: are very true. They be very careful not to disparage,

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Speaker 1: of course, where we're not trying to disparage because a

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Speaker 1: lot of the what the school does, at least there's

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Speaker 1: I had a very positive experience for a very large

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Speaker 1: portion of it. It was only after you kind of

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Speaker 1: pulled back the curtains of the whole machine and it

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Speaker 1: really became a problem. So the movement itself has been

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Speaker 1: characterized as Islam in a less hardline way or less

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Speaker 1: rigid application the nice parts of right. So it's technology friendly,

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Speaker 1: they want to work with current existing social structures. They

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Speaker 1: encourage interfaith conversations and that's that's a big deal to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. But also, as you can see

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Speaker 1: it could be considered um, beyond controversial, you know, an

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Speaker 1: athema of sorts. I think it's more because it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a front for what they're kind of actual main

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Speaker 1: goal is you actually go in there. I have a

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Speaker 1: quote from Google on himself. From this, it's more kind

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Speaker 1: of it seems a little more insidious because at first glance,

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Speaker 1: it's like, Oh, it's a guy who's about interfaith dialogue

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Speaker 1: and who was very much into math and science. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you want one of him opening up a school

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Speaker 1: in your neighborhood. See, it makes it like it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: But here just a quote from him, You must remove

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Speaker 1: the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your existence

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Speaker 1: until you reach all the power centers. You must wait

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Speaker 1: until such a time as you have gotten all the

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Speaker 1: state power, until you have brought to your side the

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Speaker 1: power of the constitutional institutions. So that seems a little bit,

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Speaker 1: a little bit kind of insidious, right, Yeah, that reminds me,

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Speaker 1: you know what, that that reminds me of back Whening

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Speaker 1: looked at communist worries and communist which hunts in the

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Speaker 1: fifties where people will talk about a so called fifth column,

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Speaker 1: you know, and a domestic sleeper force of sorts. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we do need to say, by the way, that as

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Speaker 1: we as we look at this, yes, this is an

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Speaker 1: Islamic movement and it does touch on Islam, but we're

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Speaker 1: not we're not bashing anybody for their religious beliefs. We

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Speaker 1: do have, we do have a little bit of foreshadowing here, Sam,

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Speaker 1: and I really appreciate that you put that in there, because,

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Speaker 1: like the opponents say, it's possible that the Ghulan movement

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Speaker 1: is not all it seems. It's not just uh. According

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Speaker 1: to its detractors, it is not just a a an

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Speaker 1: attempt to make a more friendly version of a religion

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Speaker 1: and then to build schools. There's an agenda at play.

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Speaker 1: Opponents have labeled members of the Gulang community as secret missionaries,

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Speaker 1: and those who are sympathetic to the movement describe it

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Speaker 1: more as a civil society organization. Well, one point I

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Speaker 1: read in the Atlantic article that you sent me about it,

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Speaker 1: which was fantastic um, was that there was no evidence

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Speaker 1: whatsoever that there was any kind of Islamic doctor indoctrination

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Speaker 1: or radicalization built into the curriculum. And to the point

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Speaker 1: where if that became an issue with certain detractors it

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Speaker 1: would come off as being xenophobic, So that that was

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Speaker 1: really fascinating me because it's clearly not about any kind

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Speaker 1: of radicalization in that respect, and it was very inter faith,

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Speaker 1: almost friendly. It reminded me of like Unitarianism or something

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Speaker 1: like that, where it's not not not obviously it's secular.

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Speaker 1: It was. It wasn't secular, though, I mean, what were

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Speaker 1: there religious aspects to it? I'm I'm a little trying

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Speaker 1: to get Here's from my experience in the school, there

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Speaker 1: never really was anything that really kind of uh made

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Speaker 1: religionous center point of everything. It was very much all

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Speaker 1: about education and more than that there it was definitely

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Speaker 1: trying to make a have all the students have a

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Speaker 1: positive kind of view of Turkish culture in Turkey in general.

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Speaker 1: So I think it was more about the trying the

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Speaker 1: culture rather than religion, though I will say that um

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Speaker 1: at my school, and I can't say that this is

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Speaker 1: at all schools, but not There definitely was a prayer

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Speaker 1: room that was there and they it was open to

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Speaker 1: all students, but it seemed to me, at least from

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Speaker 1: what I was that only students of the Islamic students

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Speaker 1: were made aware of the prayer room. They weren't really

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Speaker 1: we weren't really made aware of it. If we wanted

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Speaker 1: to followed that ourselves. What what was the reason that

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Speaker 1: you sought out the school or how did it come

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Speaker 1: to your attention And is there some something in your

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Speaker 1: family's background that made this appealing to your parents in

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Speaker 1: some way? Or it sure did. My grandfather taught at

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Speaker 1: a charter school, and though that charter schools outside of

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Speaker 1: our range for it, what would be easier to go

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Speaker 1: to school every day? We thought, why not? These things

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Speaker 1: seem very interesting. It teaches outside the curriculum, and we're

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Speaker 1: already kind of seeing us slump in the schools near

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Speaker 1: our our areas. Why not give it a shot. We

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Speaker 1: came to the school that this The test scores were

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Speaker 1: really good. It was an international school which promoted multi culturalism,

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Speaker 1: and which is like, oh, that's really good. My mom

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Speaker 1: definitely was very much a pro for that, and I

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Speaker 1: was very interested to that. Were like, it had a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with the appeal of a very good

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Speaker 1: school with great test scores, and it had a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with dealing with other cultures becoming more exempting,

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Speaker 1: being very multicultural and just kind of getting more experiences

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Speaker 1: from my young uh, very kind of isolated American kid

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Speaker 1: just like I. I didn't really have to deal with

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Speaker 1: a lot of other cultures just from where I was.

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Speaker 1: So my parents thought, let's let's kind of immerse you

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Speaker 1: into it a little bit and probably a great language classes,

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Speaker 1: better opportunities to explore things that a public school might

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Speaker 1: not be able to concentrate on. You actually went to

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Speaker 1: Turkey as part of your time at this academy, that's

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Speaker 1: very true. That's the first point where we started to

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Speaker 1: pull things together, like something doesn't quite add up here.

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Speaker 1: That's when we started kind of digging into the school

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Speaker 1: and when we started getting kind of stone walled by

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Speaker 1: the administration. Could you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your trip. So the trip when it was first announced,

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Speaker 1: it was over spring break, ten days, ten nights, all

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Speaker 1: expense paid trip. All you have to do is pay

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Speaker 1: eight hundred dollars as a student and as a parent,

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Speaker 1: and for going to Turkey for over a week. That's

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Speaker 1: that's really good. So we're like, of course we've got

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Speaker 1: to go. But as it approaches, were like, can we

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Speaker 1: see the itinerary? And they're like, no, no, we don't

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Speaker 1: have the itinerary, and then as we keep going closer

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Speaker 1: and closer each day, they're like, we still you still

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Speaker 1: don't have the itinerary. If we don't have when we're

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Speaker 1: not going to go. So eventually like oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: here you go. But even then it was just a

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Speaker 1: list of the places that we were all going to go.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until like a few days before we

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Speaker 1: found out, oh, the students and the parents will be separate,

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Speaker 1: because you assume that as a parent, the parents would

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Speaker 1: come to help shaper and all the kids, because there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of us going, but we would

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Speaker 1: be even on different flights, in different cities, and without

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Speaker 1: any way real way to contact or communicate with each other.

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Speaker 1: M hmm. So there's already something that seems kind of weird, right,

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Speaker 1: and your your mother is one of the first people

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Speaker 1: who begins to put some pieces together. That's right. You

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Speaker 1: ran into another charter school too, correct, that's right. We um.

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Speaker 1: This was my mother was on an airplane traveling to

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Speaker 1: another one of the cities, and then she met a

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Speaker 1: oh look there was an American teacher in front of her.

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Speaker 1: She's like, hey, how are you doing? So they started

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Speaker 1: talking and they're like, wait, so you're on the same trip.

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Speaker 1: We've gone to a lot of the same places, but

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Speaker 1: we're not You're also a charter school, but you're we're

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Speaker 1: not affiliated. That's strange. They start talking about that, but

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Speaker 1: guess what, the principle of that other school comes over

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Speaker 1: and switches seats with her, so she can't talk with

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Speaker 1: my mom. And the strange part is later that trip

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Speaker 1: they found it. They met each other again at this

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Speaker 1: the same hotel they were both staying at, and that

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Speaker 1: was a lot of weirdness from her. But now there's

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Speaker 1: also some weirdness going on with me. So I'm we're

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Speaker 1: going around having the time of our lives, seeing ancient

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Speaker 1: Byzantine ruins, going to the Grand Mosque, it was amazing,

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Speaker 1: going through some bazaars. But then there's some weird stuff

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Speaker 1: that started to happen, like we would never really know

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Speaker 1: where we were going to go stay for the night.

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Speaker 1: They were basically kind of calling other friends in their

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Speaker 1: in their network saying, hey, do you have a room

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Speaker 1: for this many kids? This and the other thing, and

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Speaker 1: so this is the really weird thing. Now you have

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Speaker 1: to understand that we were a math and science school,

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Speaker 1: so you can, and we were. We were some very

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Speaker 1: nerdy kids, and I take pride in that, but I

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Speaker 1: understand that the kind of stereotypes that go with us.

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Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, we're at this kind of

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Speaker 1: a park and all these Turkish girls start coming over

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Speaker 1: from another chart school and they start being very kind

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Speaker 1: of uh interested in all the guys that are going

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Speaker 1: to our school, and that just didn't add up. That's

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Speaker 1: the thing like that, that's the part. That's the part

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Speaker 1: we're like, wait a minute, why this doesn't make any sense?

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Speaker 1: And it turns out later we actually went to that

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Speaker 1: exact school there. There was a friend. It's like a

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Speaker 1: sister school in Turkey. We're like, oh, what are the

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Speaker 1: odds of that? After this trip, which sounds like was

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Speaker 1: a it was a great trip. Everyone we met was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Turkey the beautiful country, got to see amazing historical places.

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Speaker 1: It was absolutely the trip of the lifetime, if not

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Speaker 1: a little bit strange. Yeah, And so when you returned,

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Speaker 1: when you and your mother returned to the States, she

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Speaker 1: began to investigate, uh too, in hopes of connecting some

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Speaker 1: dots and finding some answers. And this is where the

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Speaker 1: story takes a bit of a twist, and we learned

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Speaker 1: that this charter school network and the Ghoulon movement may

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Speaker 1: have much much more to it than you would originally suspect.

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Speaker 1: But we'll only learn that after a word from our

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Speaker 1: sponsor Ponder return. You learn you and your mother learned

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Speaker 1: that not only is this charter school run by members

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Speaker 1: of the organization known as the Ghoulon Movement or his

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Speaker 1: met in Turkish, but also you learn more about what

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Speaker 1: that movement is, uh, what that movement is really quote

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Speaker 1: unquote up to right, And that's what the kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting part was my mom when she first was investigating,

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Speaker 1: She's like, this is just sort of weird. She's trying

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of it, understand it. So

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Speaker 1: she started talking to these really good journalists, like really

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Speaker 1: high up there, these weren't these weren't Yahoo's and they're like, oh, wow,

385
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Speaker 1: this is really interesting. This is compared to something else

386
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Speaker 1: I'm going on. If you're willing to talk to me

387
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Speaker 1: about it, I'd love to have the information, but don't worry,

388
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Speaker 1: I won't use your name. Don't worry. It happened multiple times.

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Speaker 1: She's like, that's really strange. Well, I don't care if

390
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Speaker 1: they use my name. What's so, there's nothing to be

391
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: so sinister about this, But that's when she starts digging

392
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: and starts seeing the stuff that the move that the

393
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Speaker 1: school does that you wouldn't necessarily put on the brochure.

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Speaker 1: M hm. So this is stuff like this is stuff

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Speaker 1: that has been proven. This is so using a lot

396
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Speaker 1: of the tax dollars to build their schools, but always

397
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 1: doing it very cheaply. Somehow it's coming in under budget.

398
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: That money just sort of disappears. There's they start using

399
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Speaker 1: construction companies that you find out, oh wait, they're owned

400
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Speaker 1: by people who are either on the board of the

401
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: schools or on the boards of one of the sisters schools.

402
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Speaker 1: They start using a lot of the money for kind

403
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: of political contributions and to start taking a bunch of

404
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: politicians on the same trip that I went on, said

405
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Speaker 1: exactly a lot of self dealing. And then when they

406
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: did go for outside help, there's several cases where they

407
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't they just wouldn't pay the contractors. Wasn't the school,

408
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Speaker 1: Yeah maybe maybe it wasn't yours specifically, but one of

409
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Speaker 1: the ones in Fulton County was quite in debt. That

410
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: is correct. Yeah, And is that because of that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff like not paying local contractors? Like who were

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Speaker 1: they in debt to? I mean, if a lot of

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Speaker 1: the self dealing is going on, that would be harder

414
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Speaker 1: to trace, I guess. But were they not because I

415
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: know that they get taxpayer money to fund the school,

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Speaker 1: So was was there an issue with their use of

417
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Speaker 1: taxpayer money as well? Definitely something to do with the

418
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Speaker 1: use of the taxpayer money that kind of moving around.

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Speaker 1: I know there was a couple, if not with the

420
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Speaker 1: local one, but in several examples, there was lawsuits from

421
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Speaker 1: contractors like you didn't we built your school, you didn't

422
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Speaker 1: pay us the money after that, and they would just

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Speaker 1: kind of stop talking to them and they were just

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00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 1: ghosts on them exactly, which doesn't really work when you

425
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: have a big contract with someone, when you owe them

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Speaker 1: a lot of money and a permanent address, and on

427
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: the surface they were doing their job. You even you

428
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: as an insider, say it's it was a good school experience.

429
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: Test scores were good, the teachers were recept of and

430
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, good it was. The whole environment was pretty solid. Yeah.

431
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: I think here's the thing. There are some teachers who

432
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 1: are very much part of the movement, and there are

433
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: some teachers who were there because of the benefits that

434
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: I gave. But one of the things they brought a

435
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: lot of people over with hib visas, which that means

436
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: they couldn't find hire someone who was qualified locally. You

437
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: can only apply for that if you can't do that,

438
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: So apparently they couldn't find a lot of a lot

439
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 1: of teachers math science and English teachers around. It's in

440
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: Georgia for some reason, and a lot of those teachers

441
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: like they would come over. But part of the agreement

442
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: is like you'll get paid this amount, but you have

443
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: to give like this much back to the movement. You

444
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: essentially have to tithe to his myth exactly. So that's

445
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: a That's another thing that makes it sound as if

446
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: things are financially not on the up and up. And

447
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: we know that we know that historically the connection between

448
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: religion and money. Not to shout out our previous episode

449
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: too hard, but the connection between religious and money is very,

450
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: very important, and often it's a love hate relationship. It's

451
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: a fine line to where it like become. Obviously, you

452
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: need money to continue any large organization where you have

453
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: overhead and you have infrastructure, and you have to pay

454
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: employees just like you would any other company or organization.

455
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: But when it starts to get out of hand, like

456
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: with the Creflo dollar type, you know, where you're using

457
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: tithe money to finance your jet, or as in this

458
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: situation where we see the leader of this movement using

459
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: some of these funds that were being generated to finance

460
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: political revolution. Yes, yes, But one other thing I just

461
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: have to mention about the school, and especially really into

462
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: the money, is that a lot of the really good

463
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: American teachers never really got promoted. Well, some of the

464
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: teachers who were who very quickly were rotated in, didn't

465
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: have the best grasp on the language and basically really

466
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 1: worked off of worksheets where they often got promoted and

467
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: got um and we're moved around and that sort of thing.

468
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: But well, they were kind of ignored. And it was

469
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: especially a problem with a lot of the women teachers.

470
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: They were not as um, they were not given the

471
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: same amount of respect, and I know that that led

472
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: to a bunch of the teachers leaving there and performing

473
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 1: their own charter school a charter school revolution. As well

474
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: as above so below reminds me of supersymmetry. Because no,

475
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: you you dropped a very important line there that I

476
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: want to make sure everybody listening understands. You said political revolution. Well,

477
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's you know, there is evidence that we're

478
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: going to discuss that the leader of this movement was

479
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: not only you know, hiding funds and sort of washing

480
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: money that was being diverted to other things. One of

481
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: those things was an attempt to overthrow the government of Turkey. Yes,

482
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: just so, so this uh, this movement that promotes itself

483
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: as as a moderate interpretation of Islam. In two thousand

484
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and sixteen, Yeah, let's emphasize that part um. Yes, uh.

485
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: In two thousand and sixteen, the government of Turkey requested

486
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: Ghulan's extradition from Pennsylvania and continues to do so because

487
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: they say that the Gholam movement was directly responsible for

488
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: a failed coup attempt in the Turkish government. And this

489
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: is where things start to get interesting, because if we

490
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: follow the money, and I think it was very smart

491
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: for you to construct that um that list for us.

492
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: If we follow the money, then I'm sure some of

493
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: some of us listening are thinking, well, problem, no, one,

494
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: this would be federal tax dollars supporting a religious movement

495
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: right or religious education possible right, so that could get sticky.

496
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: But more importantly, this becomes federal tax dollars to some

497
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: degree unknowingly supporting and intervention in the affairs of a

498
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: sovereign nation, which is in some cases considered grounds for

499
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: starting a war. This is a big and strange deal,

500
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: um we've got. You can see if you if you

501
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: check for the movement, you can see several of the

502
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: back and forth allegations along with criticism on both sides

503
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: where people call the current president erdigon a a despot,

504
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: right or a dictator. So in uh two thousand sixteen,

505
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: on July, just a little over a year ago, now,

506
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: uh there, this coup occurred. It was led by a

507
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: military faction operating outside the traditional chain of command. And

508
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of revolutions occur when some like

509
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: minded higher up military officials get together, maybe with a

510
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: wealthy um aristocratic family on the outs or something. They

511
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: want to have the promise that if they succeed, they

512
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: will have support, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly,

513
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: because it's it's much harder to stabilize and maintain a country,

514
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's still really hard to overthrow

515
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: a status quo, but it's much more difficult to institute

516
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: a new and lasting one. Destroying something's easy, building something

517
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: up as much more different. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a

518
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: really good way to say it. So, the when this

519
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: coup occurs or gone and co Um believe that this

520
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: was entirely done um or orchestrated by the Ghula movement

521
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: and therefore by Ghula himself. So in the days and

522
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: weeks after the coup, there was a massive crackdown purges

523
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: affecting all entities affiliated with the Ghoulon movement individuals, businesses,

524
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: but bigger than that newspapers, schools, universities, and these are

525
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: now known as the two thousand sixteen to two thousand

526
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: seventeen purges. It's interesting you mentioned newspapers because one of

527
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: the thing that's kind of looked looked into by my

528
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: mom is they were all herself and all the other

529
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of charters trips were all taken to this one

530
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: newspaper in Turkey that was very it's a it's a

531
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: very large newspaper, but it's very much kind of in

532
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: the google on sphere, and that was one of the

533
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: first ones that was purged ch after the revolution failed.

534
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: Let's let's look at some numbers here, because this is

535
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: some stuff that that definitely caught me by surprise. Uh.

536
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: During the coup, over three people were killed, more than

537
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: two thousand were injured. UM. Multiple government buildings were bombed

538
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: from the air, so whomever was orchestrating this did have

539
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: access to military aircraft. And there were mass arrests afterwards,

540
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: which we mentioned. At least forty thousand people were detained,

541
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: and at least ten thousand soldiers, almost three thousand judges,

542
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand educators and they were suspended and one teachers

543
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: working in private institutions had their licenses revoked, probably because

544
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: they taught at charter schools schools in the region. Uh.

545
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: And to date, just on the basis of alleged connections

546
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: to Goulan, over one thousand people have been arrested or fired.

547
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: And this was all happen. You know, It's it's kind

548
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: of crazy, right, you were part of this unknowingly, and

549
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, that ended up involving quite a

550
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: bit more than you would have expected at this point

551
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: or that you bargained for overall. Right, absolutely, we're going

552
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: to get into that after one more quick little ad

553
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: break and we're back. So, Sam, you had been out

554
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: of this school for a time now, a couple of years,

555
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: that's right. I was well into high school and one

556
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: day you get a knock on the door, and the

557
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: door was two FBI special agents and they wanted to

558
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: talk with me and my mom about our experience with this,

559
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: with this whole, this whole charter school chain. It seems

560
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: like they were very interested. Now of course, um, they

561
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: told me when they left they would either confirm or

562
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: deny that they were even there. But I can say

563
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: that they were there, and they either they were or

564
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: are still investigating the whole charter school thing. But the

565
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: last thing you expect is to have the FBI knock

566
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: on your door. I can tell you that, yeah, especially

567
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: because you know you're your stand up kid at least

568
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 1: at that point you know I've committed no federal crimes.

569
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: We committed no to rule crime or stay crimes to

570
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: my knowledge, all around mensch. But the same you are

571
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: into like pop culture and stuff, and so to have

572
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: the FBI come and knock, and it's got to be

573
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: on one level terrifying, but also another level maybe kind

574
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: of cool. Oh, it's it's very much both. On one hand,

575
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: it's just it's like, have I ever done anything wrong

576
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 1: in my life? No? But what if I did, I

577
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: didn't know it. Yeah, I have stress dreams about that

578
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, where like the FBI has been tracking

579
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: me for years for something I did that I didn't

580
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: even know. We've been looking at your Amazon purchases and

581
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: it turns out you can build an atomic weapon, right,

582
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: or they're pre criming me where they're like, you know,

583
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: putting together based on my browsing habits and my Amazon purchases.

584
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: They know that I will eventually commit a horrible crime.

585
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: And that's that's a new weather. That's that's that's topic

586
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: for another episode. But that's common in this country. Um,

587
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: you're right, that would be a great episode. But that's

588
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: common in this country for even the most squeaky clean,

589
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: law abiding person to feel that little, that little knife,

590
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: that stab of fear when they see, for instance, the

591
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: lights on a on a cop car turn on behind you.

592
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean not even that. If I'm just driving along

593
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: the road and a cop car passes me, I know

594
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: I immediately slowed down a little bit and square up

595
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: in my driving too. Yeah, so the taken to the

596
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: next logical extreme. What was it like when the happy

597
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: and what kind of stuff do they talk to you about?

598
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: If you can even go into that, I can go

599
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: into a little bit, but we're right. When they came

600
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: into the door, I absolutely felt like I was underdressed.

601
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: I felt I was very much squared up, like yes, sir, yes, ma'am,

602
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: got a steering wheel, put your hands on exact exactly

603
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: sending the seat. Um. But well, a lot of what

604
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: they asked me about was basically the about the teachers

605
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: who went there, about the kind of quality of the school. Um.

606
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: Anything that I noticed was off, uh, some of the

607
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: places I went to when I was in my on

608
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: the Turkish trip, stuff like that. Mm hmmm. And were

609
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: there any questions that they asked that specifically stuck out

610
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: to you as a strange line of questioning. I think

611
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: the strangest line of questioning is asking how I felt

612
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: about the school, how I felt about the thing. It

613
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: was very much trying to get the kind of a

614
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: personal read on my experience, if I was hiding anything,

615
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: if if I I honestly think they were trying to

616
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: see if I was indoctrinated because I know one of

617
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: the kind of test, the tactics they did. Now, I've

618
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: gotten this from some of my friends, and and I

619
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: feel like some of the stuff is a feeling I have.

620
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: I got no evidence to back it up, but I

621
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: think some of our test scores were inflated. Now I

622
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: can't confirm any of that, but I also know some

623
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: of my friends where they're like, they thought they did

624
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: well on the test, they did poorly, and they're like, here,

625
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: come do some tutoring with us. They tutor them. Oh, look,

626
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: now you're getting good grades, even though if you actually

627
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: checked the stuff back and forth, guess what it was

628
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: the same. It was the same, the same answers well,

629
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: because it makes them seem like there they can absolutely

630
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: help you. Then it also adds more stuff too. It's

631
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: kind of like the thing with the project to the

632
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: school that gets so much a teacher help. Yeah, it

633
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: gets a lot more. It's more renowned to the school,

634
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: which leads to more awards, which leads to more state money,

635
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: and to more people who want legitimate exactly. Ultimately, ultimately,

636
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: it's it's a lot more legitimate. If anything, it seems

637
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: a little bit culty if I had to say anything

638
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: else some of the stuff. Now, I again, I need

639
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: to make this very clear. I've had some of the

640
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: best teachers I've ever had there. A lot of them

641
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: were Turkish teachers, and even the ones that weren't were

642
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: they were all very good. But I didn't it's kind

643
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: of hard not to ignore some of these things after

644
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: you see the whole big picture. So do you I mean, again,

645
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: we're in the realm of conjecture here, but do you

646
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: think this is the kind of thing where this uh

647
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: gentleman started this chain of schools with good intentions and

648
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: then gradually started thinking, huh, maybe I could use it

649
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: for this because it seems like the foundation is super

650
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: solid and it's a real school. I bother making it

651
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: that good it and like actually paying such attention to detail,

652
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, the most fronts. That's why they call it

653
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: a front, because there's nothing there. It's just like a facade. Right. Well,

654
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of the point, because it's more

655
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: than just a front. I feel like if you do anything,

656
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: it's something that that's kind of part of the legitimacy.

657
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: And I think it goes with that quote I said earlier.

658
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: It wants people to kind of infiltrate because even if

659
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: even afterwards, I definitely have a lot more positive view

660
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: on Turkey than I did before, even with all the

661
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: stuff that happened, I definitely have a greater appreciation for it.

662
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: So if you do things right and you actually start

663
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: converting people, when I converting seems like it's a charge

664
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: with but try and get people acclimated to Turkey, to

665
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 1: their culture, to liking you. That I think that's basically

666
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: it's a I think it's a have your cake and

667
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: eat it too sort of situation. Yeah, it's a soft diplomacy,

668
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: which is a core part of many strategies from different

669
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: state actors in China. China, for instance, has in the

670
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: US the Confucius Institutes, which are all UH intent on

671
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: UH educating people regard educating people in the West regarding

672
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: Chinese culture. I do want to say, before anybody writes

673
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: in on this um, that Gulan himself claimed the recording

674
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: he is on. He is on record. You can hear

675
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: a recording of Guglan saying the quotation that Sam read

676
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: at the top. Gulan, for his part, claims that the

677
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: recording was altered, which we know, we know can happen,

678
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: but it's the easiest thing in the world without its

679
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: sounding I mean there, it's getting better. Like I think

680
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: there's like a I want to say, Adobe was kind

681
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: of shopping around or like showing off at some conferences

682
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: this like photoshop for audio thing where you can piece together,

683
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm on audio engineer and I don't

684
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: have that still. Yeah, but but I heard some examples

685
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: and it's pretty wild, but certainly not it wasn't available here.

686
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: I think the thing for me about the whole thing

687
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 1: is that the message of of definitely tolerance and getting

688
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: kids excited about math and science is very good, and

689
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: it faced volu that's very nice, but I think that

690
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: I don't really feel like that it's that genuine for

691
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: the basic reason because when we went and asked my

692
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: principle at the time, oh, are you related to these

693
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: other charter school he said, no, we're completely in affiliated.

694
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: But even with a few Google searches, we found out

695
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: that's not true. If they would have just acknowledged there,

696
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: like yeah, we're part of the largest network of charter

697
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: schools in America, over a hundred fifty schools, we probably

698
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: would have ended there like, oh, that's fine. But the

699
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: fact that they are trying to hide it, and for

700
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: good reason, because it holds all these things about double

701
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: dealing and contributions and the kind of moving money around.

702
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the kind of part for me

703
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: that kind of tarnishes the whole experience. But it makes

704
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: me a little bit, uh, paranoid about it, for lack

705
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: of a better word. Well, in the course of our

706
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: off air research, when when you first hipped us to this, uh,

707
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: one of the things we found was that, according to

708
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: the BBC, his MET has no formal structure, a visible organization,

709
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: no official members or at least no published list. Yet

710
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: it may have grown into the world's largest network of

711
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: its kind, the world's largest Muslim network. He meant, by

712
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: the way, it simply means service, and of course their

713
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: official line is they promote work for the common good.

714
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: I'd like to explore some of the finger pointing that

715
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: happened after the coupe, because the story is kind of weird.

716
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 1: Al Right. So there's a political party called the AKP

717
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: closely associated with er Uh, and in the aftermath of

718
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: the failed coup attempt, Gulan came out and said I

719
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: condemn in the strongest terms the attempted military coup in Turkey.

720
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: Henameiled the New York Times, and he said, you know,

721
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: government should be won through free and fair elections, not force.

722
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: And he's um. He says, he's praying for everyone. I'm

723
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing a little. He says, as someone who's suffered

724
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: under multiple military coups during the past five decades, it's

725
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: especially insulting to be accused of having any link to

726
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: such an attempt. I categorically deny such accusations. President er A.

727
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: Gon contacted the United States when he wanted Gulan extradited,

728
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: and he said, I call on you again after there

729
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: was a coup attempt. Extradite this man in Pennsylvania to Turkey.

730
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: If we are strategic partners or model partners, do what

731
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: is necessary and then late the Labor Minister of Turkey

732
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: fellow fellowed by the name of Soliman solu Uh, claimed

733
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: that America was behind the coup. That's where I think

734
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: it gets interesting, because we know that this country, regardless

735
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: of whatever you feel your political or spiritual ideology is,

736
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: it is in arguable that this country has instituted multiple

737
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: underground coups. Yeah, from maybe not even just to destabilize

738
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 1: the government. That's like a competing on some any number

739
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: of levels with or whatever. Yeah, we're not nice. Parts

740
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: of us aren't nice. I mean, but we are willing

741
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: to go to go that extra mile to make this happen.

742
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: It's not a stretch. This accusation rings true. And they

743
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: know they knew it, and I'm sure it's like there's

744
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: enough evidence out there. It's like, yeah, yeah, we do that.

745
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: Of course we would. And uh, in August, almost a

746
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: year ago exactly now. Uh, a former US diplomat, a

747
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: pillow named James Jeffrey, who was the ambassador to Turkey

748
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: from two thousand eight two thousand and ten, pointed the

749
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: finger back at the Ghoulaw movement and he said, uh,

750
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: they have infiltrated. They made some infiltration at least in

751
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: the military that I'm aware of. They had extreme infiltration

752
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 1: into the police and judiciary. Um. And he says very

753
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: clear that significant segment of the bureaucracy in Turkey was

754
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: infiltrated and had their allegiance to the movement. And that's unacceptable,

755
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: it's extremely dangerous. It's highly likely that that led to

756
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: the coup. So the FBI investigates this innocent high school

757
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 1: kid stuff that happened two years ago on the off

758
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: chance that he became a sleeper agent. I mean, I

759
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: that that's the kind of feeling I got from a

760
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: little bit there they were. Now, maybe it's just me

761
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: and this is my only first and only interaction with

762
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: FBI agents, But they were, of course very nice, very polite,

763
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: but they did seem a little bit suspicious of me,

764
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: which I found weird because it was my mom and

765
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 1: my own kind of kind of digging into this whole

766
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: thing and starting contacting documentary people and people writing books, journalists,

767
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: so it seemed a little odd. So now we we

768
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: reached this point where tensions are escalating between the US

769
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: and between Turkey, and this stuff has obviously been simmering

770
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: for a while. This was when Barack Obama was still

771
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: president and Urgegon Uh wrote specifically to UH President Obama

772
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: to ask for the extradition of Ghulan, and then the

773
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: US government said, we will need evidence of his guilt

774
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: before in the extradition UH. And then Urgegon brought out

775
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: some of the dirty laundry and said, when you asked

776
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: for the return of a terrorist. We did not ask

777
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: for documentation, just give them to us, let us put

778
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: them on trial. And at this at this point, oh

779
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: and um, the US officially said, any reports that we

780
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: had any previous knowledge of a coup attempt, or that

781
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: there was in the US involvement in it, that we

782
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: were anything other than entirely supportive of Turkish democracy are

783
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: completely false, unequivocally false. So the last missing pieces of

784
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: puzzle here is like who if? Because there clearly was

785
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: a coup, So who does Gulan think was responsible? If

786
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: it wasn't his movement, wasn't his men? He said, he

787
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: said that Urdagon did it, that it was a false flag.

788
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? I think that's very interesting.

789
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: I think that's on one hand, you definitely do see

790
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: Um are to Wan does does seem to be kind

791
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: of consolidating power. And I know there were some accusations

792
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: about um their connections before and then suddenly all this

793
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: dirty laundry about him suddenly came out, like, oh, look,

794
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: are to Wan and his son had been hiding millions

795
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: of dollars and shoe boxes in their home. That's strange.

796
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: Who found that out? Oh? It seemed to be this

797
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: one newspaper that has connection to Googlan, So it does

798
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: seem like it could be a false flag trying to

799
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: remove them. Another hand, it could be it did seem

800
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: like the coup from what I understand, wasn't full. They

801
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: were discovered early on, so they just tried to rush it, like,

802
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: let's hope we can still make it work. So maybe

803
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: it was just, you know, one using the best of

804
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: a bad situation. But let's say it was Googlan for

805
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: this kind of just hypothetical, what does the United States

806
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 1: know about that? Because at this point um, the United

807
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: States generally likes putting people in power who are stabilizing

808
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: factors and who will allow us to be strategic partners

809
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: against Russia and other kind of large powers in the region.

810
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: So the thing is it's something that's sponsored by the

811
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: large parts of the government. Is this just kind of

812
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: a smaller project of another hand, the left hand not

813
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: speaking to the right hand. Who knows? That's kind of

814
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 1: the real kind of question. But it does seem interesting though,

815
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: because the Ghoulan does definitely seem to be soft power

816
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: rather than revolution in the streets. And that's the thing.

817
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: It just doesn't fit the profile, but maybe that's just

818
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: because he hasn't tried before. And we talked about where

819
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: his money comes from and like his background. That's an

820
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: excellent question and thank you, thank you for getting us

821
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: on that. So we do need to learn a little

822
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: bit more about this person that we have. We have

823
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: painted as a shadowy figure, but we must say to

824
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: be fair regularly rights to media institutions and maintains his innocence.

825
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: So he was born in nineteen forty one in April.

826
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: He's a preacher, a former, a mom, a writer, obviously

827
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: involved in politics. There's still some confusion over his Earth dates,

828
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 1: so some people say thirty eight and some people say

829
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: forty one. Some some critics say that the of the

830
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: date he gives for eight of ten November is propaganda

831
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: because it's the same day that the founder of modern

832
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: Turkey out of Turk died. Um So there's also possibly

833
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: just the fact that this would have been a time

834
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: when people have physical records, and if a physical record

835
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: was destroyed then it's just word of mouth at that point,

836
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: which happens more often than you might think. Um. So,

837
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: his father was also in a mom and he gave

838
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: his first sermon when he was fourteen. People consider him

839
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: sort of a Turkish nationalist aligning with religion. In one

840
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: of the great debates, or one of the tensions behind

841
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: this movement, is that modern Turkey is embroiled and obsessed

842
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: with a question are we a secular country or are

843
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: we a religious country? Are we a democracy? Are we

844
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: a theocracy? And the Turkish military has often stepped in

845
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: to keep the country quote unquote secular. So to people

846
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: who would prefer it to be a secular country, any

847
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: form of theocracy or religiously guided um government, no matter

848
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: how mild or how friendly, is still going to be

849
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous. And I think it can overlook the part

850
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: where Turkey has been trying to be entered into the

851
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: EU for a long time, and this stuff just more

852
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: that these kind of embroider battles happen, the less likely

853
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: that it's going to be interested in the EU. But

854
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: it's still a very strong and important part of NATO.

855
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: H Yeah, that's true, NATO and the EU being separate.

856
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: And speaking of Gulan's willingness to speak to the press,

857
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: he actually did an interview on NPR with Robert Siegel

858
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: uh this month July eleven quote to this day, I

859
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: have stood against all coups. I suffered during the military

860
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: intervention of May nineteen sixty, and then again on March twelfth,

861
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, and again on September twelfth, nineteen eighty

862
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: and I was targeted February. My respect for the military

863
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: asside I have always been against interventions. I don't know

864
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: the people who attempted the July fifteen coup. They might

865
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: know me, They may have attended some lectures. I have

866
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: no idea. Thousands of people have come here to the

867
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: retreat to visit, among them fifty members of parliament, former

868
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: President Abdullah Goal, former Foreign Minister. I'm at Dabutagalu for

869
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: this reason. Many people might know me, but I don't

870
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: know them. One other thing is I live here thousands

871
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: of miles away from Turkey. Some soldiers decided to do

872
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: the coup, and despite the many questions and suspicions that

873
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: remain of the government account of what transpired that night,

874
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: if such claims are still taken to be credible, I

875
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: shudder an astonishment. But if I were to humor that idea,

876
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: if anyone among those soldiers had called me and told

877
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: me of their plan, I would tell them you are

878
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: committing murder. So that's pretty explicit, absolutely and specific. Uh.

879
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: There's also despite the fact that the Turkish government officially

880
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: designated the Ghula Movement or his met as a terrorist organization,

881
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: there's at this point it doesn't seem like there's direct

882
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: evidence linking the man himself Gulan to anything. M hmm, well,

883
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of part of the point that

884
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: that's kind of the strength of the network is that

885
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: it doesn't acknowledge each other. It will work with each other.

886
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: They know they can identify other members, but they won't

887
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: acknowledge their kind of togetherness terroristic life. But that's the

888
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: way and when I think, when I think needs to

889
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 1: be known, this is a lot of this isn't necessarily

890
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: um It's not something that's trying to attack the United

891
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: States or anything dramatic like that. At the end of

892
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: the day, it's something that's basically trying to get both

893
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: physical capital and political capital wherever it goes. And I

894
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: think the only the only real problem that a lot

895
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: of people have with it is with how shady it

896
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: does and the illegal practices that it promotes. If it's

897
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: just the if it follows the stated goal of interfaith

898
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: dialogue and a promotion of math and science education. I

899
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: don't think anyone has problems with that. I think it's

900
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: the real problem with how it's using it to move

901
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: people and money in and out of the country. Right. Yeah,

902
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: and existing in some ways in a is ingenuous gray area. Right.

903
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: That's you know, that's a great point because regardless of

904
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: how somebody may agree or disagree with the activities here,

905
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: there does seem to be financial corruption at the at

906
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: the minimum. I'm Sam. I would want to ask, what

907
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: what do you think is the future for these, uh,

908
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: these charter academies? And have you written to any of

909
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: your former teachers? UM written to I am in contact

910
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: with one of my former teachers. She's actually started another

911
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: charter school. This is the person you mentioned earlier. UM.

912
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: She started another charter school and is trying to get

913
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: that up off the ground to basically be just be

914
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: like a follow what the original point of that that

915
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: school was to be a a math and science academy.

916
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,479
Speaker 1: It promoted for youth for the youth, and I think

917
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: that that might be something that continues on. There's a

918
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: lot of fighting going back and forth on whether the

919
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: schools here would remain like they have a kindergarten through

920
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: high school right now, and it was gonna see if

921
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: they can remain charter schools or not. Well, after back

922
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: and forth and seeing a lot of the kind of

923
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: stuff that goes on, the they lost the charter and

924
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: they moved to a private institution. So I feel like

925
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: that the charter schools are definitely becoming more popular, but

926
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: is more and more money goes into them, and I

927
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: feel like this will be more scrutiny. So either the

928
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: schools are going to have to shape up or they're

929
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: going to have to go into private institutions. My only

930
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: concern is, and now I know this is this goes

931
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: again into the kind of allegory. There's a lot of

932
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: the money that goes into gaining political support. There's a

933
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 1: lot of it that goes into saying, look where charter

934
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: schools were exactly what you want. There's been a lot

935
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: of times where they take people on good will trips

936
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: to Turkey, like the like the one that I went

937
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 1: on and let me it was a very nice trip.

938
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: And if there's a lot of politicians that all they

939
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,959
Speaker 1: sees the test scores. All they see is the uh,

940
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: the various awards. They go on a trip to Turkey. Oh,

941
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: of course, why wouldn't I support this? This is very

942
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 1: nice and it follows my political base, and I might

943
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: get some political donations out of it that might sustain it.

944
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: It just really kind of depends on the zones, and

945
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: the more awareness of this, the better keep people honest

946
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But otherwise I think it's gonna

947
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: go on a state by state by basis. I can

948
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: still see there's definitely a lot of room for growth,

949
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: but I don't know if it's sustainable. No, what do

950
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: you What do you think about this whole situation? I

951
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting. Um, I don't think we have

952
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: enough information to make any definitive final conclusions. I mean,

953
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, his his defense was so strongly worded and

954
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: cutting dry that I couldn't help but be a little

955
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: bit taken in by it. That could just be the

956
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: work of a very charismatic con man, you know, Um,

957
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think the whole I

958
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm more fascinated with if it wasn't this than what

959
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: was it? It opens up more a lot more questions,

960
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: like the whole thing is a real quagmire. And with

961
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: the way that there's a lot of censorship and there's

962
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: a lot of conflicting stories even from people. There's people

963
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: who are on the ground who who still protests the

964
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: government or for the government that it's it's very unclear

965
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: what was going on in that situation, and it's still

966
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: kind of on. But here's the thing I find interesting

967
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: even here talking to other My parents have talked to

968
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: other parents who, even after it's very much clearly shown

969
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: the link, a lot of their parents are like, who

970
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: cares who? As long as I'm getting a good education

971
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: from my kid, who cares what they're doing with the

972
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: government's money. That's what I was saying a minute ago.

973
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: It's like, it seems like everything was in place, and

974
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 1: it was a positive experience and you did get what

975
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: you signed up for, at least on the surface, and

976
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: you learned Turkish dance. It's true. You should see me

977
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 1: in a dresses amazingly, well, h sadly for everybody who

978
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: is out there in the audience today, Uh, this is

979
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: an audio podcast, so look at him twirl way should

980
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: we go? So we hope that you have enjoyed this episode.

981
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: This is something that um, Noelan, Matt and I had

982
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: never heard of, and we really appreciate you taking the

983
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: time to be our first I think you are our

984
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: first human intern. Did you know that? Well, I think

985
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of disparaging towards the NSA agent. Well, that's true,

986
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: but then we had the puppet and um the skeleton skeleton.

987
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 1: But I'm just glad I was able to come on

988
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: the show, I was able to tell my story and

989
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,919
Speaker 1: you weren't immediately dismissive of the whole crazy affair. Well,

990
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: uh we uh, we are all about finding ourselves in

991
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: situations where the truth is stranger than fiction. If you

992
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: would like to learn more about the story of his

993
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: myth a Ghoulon movement and uh Sam's adventures therein, we're

994
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: also both very glad you're okay, Uh, then do check

995
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: out a documentary called Killing Ed Killing. It is this

996
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: uh it very exteen documentary that um it definitely has

997
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: its perspective and it's very very strongly coming in there,

998
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: but it has a lot of really good information, a

999
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: lot of very good quotes, and it really gets to

1000
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: the heart of a lot of people who were just

1001
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: like me in the experience, and I feel like just

1002
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: seeing the different kind of perspectives and hearing the first

1003
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: hand accounts that I think is very important. And it

1004
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: remains the only independently produced documentary to uh investigate the

1005
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: movement's apparent involvement in the school system and possible political corruption.

1006
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: But let's say political activities and the alleged connections to

1007
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: the coup attempt. And this brings up a whole another

1008
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: kind of cannon warms with the whole charter school thing

1009
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: in the first place. There's a movie called Waiting for

1010
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: Superman I think it's called that's about the implement take

1011
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: of charter schools and how it seems very appealing on

1012
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: the surface, but there's a lot of odd politics involved

1013
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: in that system in general. And now we're seeing, you know,

1014
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: with again the current administration, the idea of school choice

1015
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: sort of a misnomer. It doesn't you don't really have.

1016
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: It's almost like the choice aspect of it is sort

1017
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: of a little bit of a red herring kind of

1018
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: So I don't know, we I almost think we should

1019
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: revisit charter schools specifically and looking to look a little

1020
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: deeper into that. Yeah, and in the meantime, we are

1021
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: going to head out today. We will return next week

1022
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: with something equally bizarre but probably also completely different. We

1023
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: do hope you enjoyed this episode, and most importantly, we

1024
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: hope you right in today and let us know what

1025
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: you think about this movement, what you think about charter

1026
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: schools in general. Did you go to one of these schools?

1027
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to add to Sam's perspective? If

1028
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: you're one of my classmates from let me know, send

1029
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: me a Facebook message, we'll talk. Wait, you were in

1030
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: middle school in oh Man. We gotta go, all right,

1031
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: So apparently, uh, Noel and Tristan and I have to

1032
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: go get the early Bird special somewhere, So we're going

1033
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: to head out in the meantime. You can find us

1034
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. We are Conspiracy Stuff show

1035
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: and Conspiracy Stuff at the other two. If you'd like

1036
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: to talk to us, if you have a topic that

1037
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: you think would be great for your fellow and listeners

1038
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: to hear, or maybe even if it's not great important

1039
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: for your fellow listeners to hear, then you can write

1040
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: to us directly. We are Conspiracy It has stuff works

1041
00:59:38,160 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: dot Com