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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

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Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 4: A historic indictment a former President Trump. He becomes the

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Speaker 4: first president in history charged with committing federal crimes. In

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Speaker 4: a video, he posted a truth social the former president, though,

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Speaker 4: saying that it's no biggie, I'm.

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Speaker 5: An innocent man. We will prove that again. Seven years

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Speaker 5: of proving it, and here we go again. Very unfair,

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Speaker 5: but that's the way it is.

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Speaker 4: His campaign sent fundraising emails minutes after this indictment dropped.

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Speaker 4: We're going to get into the campaign impact throughout the show,

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Speaker 4: but first we're going to hit on all of the

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Speaker 4: legal question marks here, and for that we bring in

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Speaker 4: our foremost expert on this, June Grasso, the host of

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Speaker 4: Bloomberg Law. June thanks so much for being in studio

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Speaker 4: with us here on this. Talk to me about what

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Speaker 4: we know. The indictments still under seal, but what do

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Speaker 4: we know so far about the specifics of these charges.

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Speaker 6: It contains seven charges, and what we expect is it

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Speaker 6: includes wilful retentional national defense information that's something under the

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Speaker 6: Espionage Act, corruptly concealing documents, conspiracy to obstruct justice, and

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Speaker 6: making false statements. You know, the obstruction is the most

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Speaker 6: interesting to me, the conspiracy to obstruct justice because it

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Speaker 6: means that they are charging that it was more than

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Speaker 6: just former President Trump involved. They're saying there's someone else

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Speaker 6: that's either going to be indicted or testify. And now

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Speaker 6: we've learned that Trump aid Walt Nada has been indicted

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Speaker 6: along with Trump, and we have to wonder what other

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Speaker 6: evidence they have. He's the man who, along with a

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Speaker 6: maintenance worker, was seen on surveillance video moving boxes of

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Speaker 6: documents at Mara Lagos.

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Speaker 7: So it gets you know.

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Speaker 6: We're learning things almost every hour, there's something new. Trump

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Speaker 6: has switched his legal team, so it keeps ongoing.

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Speaker 4: Well, I want to talk to you about this transcript

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Speaker 4: that we've gotten former President Trump acknowledging on tape in

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Speaker 4: a twenty twenty one meeting that he had retained quote

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Speaker 4: secret military information that he had not declassified. That's According

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Speaker 4: to a transcript of the audio recording, he said, as president,

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Speaker 4: I could have declassified, but now I can't. How critical

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Speaker 4: is a comment like that, June?

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Speaker 7: So that is very critical.

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Speaker 6: I mean, prosecutors love audio tapes videotapes, and in this one,

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Speaker 6: Trump says basically that it shows intent and knowledge on

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Speaker 6: his part, and that's something that's really hard to prove

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Speaker 6: in real life.

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Speaker 7: So he's saying that he, you know.

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Speaker 6: Was basically intentionally mishandling this classified information, that he knew

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Speaker 6: he did have the power to do that, and he

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Speaker 6: was disclosing it to others. Now we don't know what

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Speaker 6: he actually had in his hand. Could have been something else,

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Speaker 6: and maybe that will be his defense. I was just talking.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't really. But that is critical evidence, and you

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Speaker 6: have to believe that that's something that will be foremost

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Speaker 6: in the prosecutor's case because it's not often that you

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Speaker 6: get the defendant on tape making admissions like that.

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Speaker 4: All Right, So I want to get to with so

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Speaker 4: much I could talk to you about, June, this twelve

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Speaker 4: hour conversation, and everyone should listen to the Bloomberg Law

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Speaker 4: Show to get into the weeds even more. But my

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Speaker 4: big question, can he face jail time here?

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Speaker 7: So, yes, he does.

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Speaker 6: I mean the charges themselves carry jail time. I mean

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Speaker 6: it ten to twenty years for some of the charges.

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Speaker 6: But will a former president be actually jailed if if

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Speaker 6: and this is a big if he's found guilty, I mean,

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Speaker 6: I don't know how would that work. You'd have Secret

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Speaker 6: Service agents in the cell next to him, he'd be

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Speaker 6: walking to I mean, it brings up all kinds of problems.

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Speaker 6: And you know, there is also the possibility the slimpus

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Speaker 6: but there's a possibility this is still a white collar crime,

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Speaker 6: that a deal could be reached, that prosecutors could offer

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Speaker 6: him a deal. However, would he even if it's done,

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Speaker 6: this is if, if, if it's done.

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Speaker 7: Would he take it?

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Speaker 6: You know, would he's a he's a proud person, he's

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Speaker 6: running for reelection. Would he take it? I mean, there's

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Speaker 6: so many questions that this indictment raises. And you know,

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Speaker 6: one thing you've got to believe is that Jack Smith's

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Speaker 6: been at this for six months. He is a career prosecutor,

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Speaker 6: a war crimes prosecutor. I am fairly sure that he

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Speaker 6: has all his eyes dotted and his tee's crossed and

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Speaker 6: has nailed this evidence down.

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Speaker 4: So could this disqualified Trump from running in any way?

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Speaker 7: That's that's a big question.

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Speaker 6: First of all, it would have to be if if again,

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Speaker 6: it would have to be after an appeal, so that

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Speaker 6: wouldn't happen before the election, right, so he's going to run.

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Speaker 6: And also, you can run from prison. Even if that

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Speaker 6: were to happen, there have been people who run from prison.

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Speaker 6: There is one of these charges that has the potential

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Speaker 6: to say that, you know, to mean that he can't run.

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Speaker 6: But that's it's very up in the air. It hasn't

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Speaker 6: been investigated before. It hasn't been litigated.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just one of the many ifs here. Final

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Speaker 4: question jin in our last minute, the timeline feels very critical.

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Speaker 4: How long could this take?

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Speaker 6: You know, that's a question that I've also been asking

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Speaker 6: other people and lawyers because and there's a feeling that,

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Speaker 6: I mean, if Trump says I want a speedy trial,

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Speaker 6: it could go to trial as fast as a month

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Speaker 6: or so. But usually what the defense does is try

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Speaker 6: to you know, string it out. And what's happened here

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Speaker 6: is the prosecutor has brought this case in Florida, So

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Speaker 6: that big question of venue that the defense was going

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Speaker 6: to challenge is gone now, so you can see the

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Speaker 6: prosecutor wants to move fast. The question is how many

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Speaker 6: objections is the Trump camp? Is the Trump camp going

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Speaker 6: to be, you know, putting before the judge how many motions?

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Speaker 6: So it could happen before the election. But remember also

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Speaker 6: in March, the end of March, he has the trial

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Speaker 6: here in New York where Alvin Bragg is prosecuting him,

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Speaker 6: So there are going to be a lot of things

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Speaker 6: up in the air and a lot of different courts

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Speaker 6: trying to figure out what to do.

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Speaker 7: It's a mess.

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Speaker 4: I mean it is. And I know I'm asking you

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Speaker 4: to look into the crystal ball here for us talk

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Speaker 4: to me about the location a little bit more, because

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Speaker 4: I imagine that this being in Trump's turf in Palm

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Speaker 4: Beach County is kind of a boon for him, Is

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Speaker 4: that right?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? I would say so.

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Speaker 6: I mean I think that they were pushing His team

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Speaker 6: was pushing and saying that it should be in Florida.

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Speaker 6: So I think what happened is the Special Council, you know,

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Speaker 6: looked at everything and made a calculated decision that it

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Speaker 6: was worth it not to have that come up any

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Speaker 6: problems with the venue to put to have it in Florida,

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Speaker 6: knowing that the jury pool in Florida is not going

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Speaker 6: to be as favorable to the Special Council as a

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Speaker 6: jury pool in DC would have been. So because you

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Speaker 6: have a state that went for Donald Trump and he

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Speaker 6: lives there, so the jury selection will have to be

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Speaker 6: very carefully done to weed out any jurors that have

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Speaker 6: biased opinions.

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Speaker 4: June, thank you so much for the important context on

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Speaker 4: the details of the indictment that was June Grasso, host

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Speaker 4: of Bloomberg Law. We're going to get into the evidence itself. Now.

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Speaker 4: We've got Daniel Freed. He's former US ambassador to Poland

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Speaker 4: and also a fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's going

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Speaker 4: to talk to us about the sensitivity of these documents

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Speaker 4: as well. Daniel, thank you so much for being here

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Speaker 4: with us. Talk to me about your take on the

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Speaker 4: evidence and just how big of a deal the evidence

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Speaker 4: is going to be in this case.

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Speaker 8: I was a Foreign Service officer for forty years working

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Speaker 8: with classified documents, and the rules are pretty clear. You

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Speaker 8: don't take that stuff home, you don't hoard it, you

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Speaker 8: don't treat it casually. So the evidence of, let us say,

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Speaker 8: bad actions seems, at least from what I've read in

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Speaker 8: the meeting read in the press, overwhelming. You don't walk

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Speaker 8: out with top secret or secret sci documents and pretend

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Speaker 8: it was all a misunderstanding. Now, the president does have

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Speaker 8: declassification authority, but that's not like waving a magic wand

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Speaker 8: or doing it in its head. There's a process, and

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Speaker 8: it's clear, you know, there's no evidence in any rate

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Speaker 8: that the president followed any process. So for those of us,

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Speaker 8: for myself and others who have worked for years with

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Speaker 8: classified documents, it is it is just a damning indictment.

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Speaker 8: But we all know better. We all respect the rules

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Speaker 8: that are there for good reasons, and people who don't

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Speaker 8: respect the rules go to jail. That happens. So this

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Speaker 8: does not seem to be a far flung or extreme case.

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Speaker 8: It seems fairly straightforward. Yeah, I believe for those of

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Speaker 8: us with experience handling classified information.

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Speaker 4: Well, classified documents have come up for a lot of

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Speaker 4: public elected officials over the past couple of years, and

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Speaker 4: one of my sources has told me that part of

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Speaker 4: the problem is that some of this is related to

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Speaker 4: working from home, people taking documents home but this, as

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Speaker 4: you mentioned, feels a lot bigger. Does that characterization feel

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Speaker 4: accurate to you?

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Speaker 8: It's this is not a question of bringing documents home. Now,

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Speaker 8: there are provisions for bringing documents home. You can do

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Speaker 8: it if you have a saye other secure, unapproved safe

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Speaker 8: for other means to secure them.

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Speaker 6: But you don't.

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Speaker 8: When you leave government, you don't take stuff with you.

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Speaker 8: That's known. We all know that. Now there are cases

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Speaker 8: you know of sloppy records keeping, and that that's not

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Speaker 8: a problem. You know, former Vice President Biden after he

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Speaker 8: left office had some stuff. Vice President Pence had some stuff, right, problem,

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Speaker 8: Sometimes aids pack up stuff stupidally. That's all fixable, But

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Speaker 8: woefully withholding documents is shocking to those of us who

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Speaker 8: know our blood pressure starts to rise and we get

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Speaker 8: nervous if if people start discussing classified information in an

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Speaker 8: improper way, because we have respect for the process.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like you see a clear delineation between former

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Speaker 4: president Trump and current president Biden's documentary.

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Speaker 8: And Vice president and sure, yeah, no, I found that

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Speaker 8: what they did was sloppy. And there's a big difference

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Speaker 8: between sloppy and ill intent, you know, and ill intent.

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Speaker 7: Well, given that.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk to you about the big question

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Speaker 4: in the room, which is, you know, as a former diplomat,

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Speaker 4: what is your definition of espionage and would you be

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Speaker 4: thinking about that word when thinking about this.

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Speaker 8: Well, the Espionage Act is different from what you and

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Speaker 8: I probably consider spying. And I'm not going to I'm

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Speaker 8: not a lawyer. I'm not going to give an opinion

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Speaker 8: about the specifics. But if President Trump showed a document

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Speaker 8: to other people or other governments or try to use

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Speaker 8: them as opposed to just forwarding them and keeping them

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Speaker 8: suing or something, that's a whole that's an additional layer

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Speaker 8: of problems. So keeping classified information and then trying to

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Speaker 8: conceal it and hide ball and not give it back

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Speaker 8: when you're asked to give it back, that's one set

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Speaker 8: of problems. That's a different and arguably worse set of problems.

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Speaker 8: If you show it to people, whether individuals or foreigners

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Speaker 8: or foreign governments for any kind of gain, that's a

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Speaker 8: different problem. I've got no evidence that President Trump, former

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Speaker 8: President Trump did that, and oh I'm not following the

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Speaker 8: inside details of the investigation. I've got no knowledge of it. Sure,

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Speaker 8: and I'm sure this will come you know, whether or

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Speaker 8: not he did so will come out. It might be

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Speaker 8: even in the indictment. I have no idea.

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Speaker 4: So, given how much time and access you've had to

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Speaker 4: classified documents, I'm wondering if you can help me understand

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Speaker 4: the real importance of what can be within documents like

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Speaker 4: these and just how critical they are and how kind

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Speaker 4: of big of a deal this is. Can you help

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Speaker 4: put that into context for me?

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Speaker 8: It depends on the specifics. Okay, some documents, some documents

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Speaker 8: are what's called raw intelligence, and they could give away

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Speaker 8: information about US sources and methods, as the saying goes.

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Speaker 8: In other words, whether we pick something up electronically or

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Speaker 8: we pick it up through human sources, that could be

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Speaker 8: given away in certain documents. So that's one level of harm.

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Speaker 8: A second level of harm is a document which describes

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Speaker 8: a situation that we'd like not to get out in

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Speaker 8: the open. What's going on in some foreign country or

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Speaker 8: the situation on the ground, or what a government thinks about,

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Speaker 8: what are the government of foreign government thinks or what

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Speaker 8: it intends that could be both embarrassing and damaging to

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Speaker 8: US national security and occurred to the problems are US

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Speaker 8: military plans, which has come up in media accounts of

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Speaker 8: the Trump of Trump pertaining class of Eyed documents. If

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Speaker 8: if there is a document which purports to describe US

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Speaker 8: military planning on a contingency basis, revealing that document could

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Speaker 8: be both embarrassing and damaging if it reveals American military plans.

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Speaker 8: In no case is it wise to retain, you know,

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Speaker 8: retain class of eyed documents, even if your motives are right, right,

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Speaker 8: I'll go see why it doesn't. It doesn't do it.

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Speaker 8: It doesn't do anybody any good.

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Speaker 4: All right, We're gonna have to leave it there, Daniel Freed,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining us. Amazing context from you,

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Speaker 4: given your background as a diplomat on this indictment. We've

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Speaker 4: got more coming up on sound on This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

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Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the

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Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and.

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Speaker 3: The Bloomberg Business App.

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 4: All right, folks, I'm Madison Mills here in New York.

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Speaker 4: We've got a big news day covering former President Trump's indictment.

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Speaker 4: In this block, we are going to talk about what

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Speaker 4: this indictment means, not just for President Trump's you know,

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Speaker 4: legal questions, not just for his presidential campaign, but the

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Speaker 4: entire field of twenty twenty four candidates. We're going to

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Speaker 4: jump right into it. We've got Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie

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Speaker 4: Schanzeno and Rick Davis joining us to give their amazing insights.

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Speaker 4: As always, guys, thanks so much for being here on

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Speaker 4: this very light news day. It sounds so far like

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Speaker 4: Trump's going to continue campaigning. He's hosting his fundraising birthday

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Speaker 4: party on the day of his arraignment. I wonder, Rick,

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Speaker 4: how do you think this could impact Trump's fundraising efforts.

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Speaker 4: Could big donors get spooked by this one or not

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Speaker 4: so much?

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Speaker 9: Well, you know, he doesn't really rely on big donors

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Speaker 9: in the traditional sense. He is a machine of small

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Speaker 9: donor fundraising, and it was on display after the indictment

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Speaker 9: by the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, where he raised

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Speaker 9: quite a bit of money millions of dollars in the

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Speaker 9: short period of time after the indictment. So I would

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Speaker 9: think that this is going to follow a similar course.

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Speaker 9: I mean, you know, his core constituency is going to disagree,

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Speaker 9: you know, with the fact base of this, this indictment,

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Speaker 9: and we'll show their support by piling on the dough

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Speaker 9: for him. So I suspect you'll have a very successful,

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Speaker 9: you know, high dollar donor event on Tuesday night after

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Speaker 9: the indictment. But I suspect right now, with the churn

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Speaker 9: of emails, he's already sent out literally the moment he

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Speaker 9: heard he was indicted, to start raising money.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think the big question here right is does

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Speaker 4: this hurt Trump's campaign? Doesn't even help his campaign in

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Speaker 4: some ways? So, Genie, I want to go to you

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Speaker 4: on this and specifically on the polling, because the initial

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Speaker 4: polling we're getting shows that, you know, the broader Trump

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Speaker 4: base feels aligned with him. You know, either you voted

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Speaker 4: for Trump and you are fine with everything happening in

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Speaker 4: the news today, or you didn't vote for him and

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Speaker 4: you don't like it. How accurate are those polls going

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Speaker 4: to be as we get closer and closer to the election.

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Speaker 10: Well, it depends on how the question is asked. And

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Speaker 10: so we know that when we ask Americans whether they

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Speaker 10: regard charges like this as serious removal, retention of classified documents,

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Speaker 10: obstructing an investigation, being charged with a federal crime, and

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Speaker 10: this is a criminal charge, not civil like you know

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Speaker 10: he has faced in the e Gen Carroll for instance,

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Speaker 10: and that was at a very different level. Then Americans

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Speaker 10: two thirds say these are very serious charges, and they have,

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Speaker 10: you know, sort of less inclination to say they would

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Speaker 10: support the person for the presidency. In fact, have large

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Speaker 10: percentage say they would not if the person is convicted.

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Speaker 10: But when you attach Donald Trump's name to the question,

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Speaker 10: and when you say this is a politically motivated witch hunt,

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Speaker 10: that this is Biden's administration going after their chief rival,

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Speaker 10: you see a complete turnaround there. So it really does

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Speaker 10: depend on how the question is asked. But in no

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Speaker 10: universe does being charged with seven counts of a federal

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Speaker 10: criminal indictment help anybody. And so I want to underscore that,

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Speaker 10: you know, he can to spend this all he wants.

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Speaker 10: He's fundraising minutes after this he makes this announcement. But

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Speaker 10: there is no universe in which this is a good

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Speaker 10: day for Donald Trump, who is going to be fighting

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Speaker 10: for his life as he faces really serious criminal charges.

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Speaker 10: Not to mention a horribly dark day for American politics,

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Speaker 10: American government, and in American history.

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Speaker 4: Right, Genie, I'm sure in your career you never thought

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Speaker 4: that you would have someone asking you whether or not

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Speaker 4: a federal criminal charge would be a big deal for

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Speaker 4: a presidential candidate. I want to listen in on how

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Speaker 4: former President Trump talked about the legalities of classified documents

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Speaker 4: when he was running for president in twenty sixteen. Let's

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Speaker 4: take a listen.

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Speaker 5: In my administration, I'm going to enforce all laws concerning

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Speaker 5: the protection of classified information. No one will be above

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Speaker 5: the law, all.

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Speaker 4: Right, Rick. So given that sound from Trump compared to

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Speaker 4: where we're at today, I mean, what breaks him?

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Speaker 9: What breaks Donald Trump? Well, look, I mean, as Genie

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Speaker 9: was saying, the public is pretty one sided on this issue, right,

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Speaker 9: other than his base within the Republican Party and a

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Speaker 9: national basis that's about thirty eight percent according to Washington

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Speaker 9: Post poland May everybody else basically thinks that this is

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Speaker 9: an act of illegality and should be punished. So when

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Speaker 9: you have independent voters saying fifty eight percent agree that

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Speaker 9: he should be tried and potentially convicted if these charges

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Speaker 9: are true, then you're really limiting what you can do

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Speaker 9: in a general election. Now, with thirty eight percent, you

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Speaker 9: can win a lot of primaries. And that's kind of

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Speaker 9: his instincts right now. Don't worry about the general election,

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Speaker 9: don't say or do anything that's going to upset your base,

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Speaker 9: and keep driving them home. Because in a divided field

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Speaker 9: like what we currently have almost a dozen candidates, that

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Speaker 9: strong base can win a lot of primaries. And so

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Speaker 9: unless the base of candidates running against him changes, unless

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Speaker 9: the dynamic, you know, is less spread out and more

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Speaker 9: consolidated behind just a few contenders, he's not going to

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Speaker 9: have that hard time win in some primaries. If the

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Speaker 9: field consolidates behind a couple of people, he can't grow.

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Speaker 9: He's proven that over the last three years, and so

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Speaker 9: he's a sitting duck in that regard.

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Speaker 4: So so far, Asa Hutchinson is the only competitor of

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Speaker 4: calling on Trump to step down from the presidential election.

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Speaker 4: Is there any chance of all of these candidates Rick

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Speaker 4: kind of coming together and all calling on that or

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Speaker 4: is that just a total, never going to happen situation.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm not sure that there's a constituency for everybody

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Speaker 9: calling for Trump to quit. You've seen a complete difference

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Speaker 9: between how people feel, and it goes along the lines

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Speaker 9: of when he was first in in Manhattan and what

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Speaker 9: happened there. Right, some people said, hey, this is outrageous,

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Speaker 9: like Asa Hutchinson, and others kind of blame the prosecutor.

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Speaker 9: And there's a lot of that going on here. And

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Speaker 9: so I think what's ironic is the entire field was

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Speaker 9: getting into this mode of attacking Trump. You know, this

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Speaker 9: week we had the emergence of two candidates who were

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Speaker 9: very aggressive against Donald Trump, his vice president, Mike Pence

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Speaker 9: and Chris Christy. And now they it's almost like the

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Speaker 9: narrative has to change a little bit because they're all

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Speaker 9: trying to figure out what do you do with a

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Speaker 9: presidential candidate and former president who's running under an indictment

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Speaker 9: like this. And by the way, this may not be

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Speaker 9: the only indictment this year. I mean, he's got a

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Speaker 9: lot of other legal problems out there, and so I

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Speaker 9: think this will vex the field for the balance of

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Speaker 9: this year.

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Speaker 4: So Genie, give us the final word here and then

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Speaker 4: we'll come back to you all later on in our show.

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Speaker 4: If Trump is successful here, right, if this ends up,

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Speaker 4: not if they end in a plea or he's a

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Speaker 4: to push the timeline back after the twenty twenty four election.

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Speaker 4: Is this is this just kind of a fly in

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Speaker 4: his ear for a.

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Speaker 10: Little while, You know, I don't think so, you know,

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Speaker 10: even if you set anything aside, if any of us

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Speaker 10: were charged with something like this, the time, the energy,

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Speaker 10: the stress that it takes on you and everybody surrounding

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Speaker 10: you to fight charges like this.

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Speaker 7: As Rick just.

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Speaker 10: Mentioned, this is not the only indictment he may face this.

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Speaker 10: You're at the federal level. He's also you know, facing

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Speaker 10: the charges in New York and potentially Georgia. I do

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Speaker 10: think he knows very very clearly what the toll this

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Speaker 10: is that it might take on him, But he has

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Speaker 10: decided that the one way to you know, sort of

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Speaker 10: save himself, if you will, is to run for office

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Speaker 10: and make this a political argument.

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Speaker 7: If we believe the tape.

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Speaker 10: That we are hearing that the Feds have in that

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Speaker 10: he says slam dunk, he knew exactly what he was doing,

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Speaker 10: and he did it. And so there is you know,

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Speaker 10: no question there. That doesn't mean that he's going to

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Speaker 10: be convicted or anything else. It means that this is

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Speaker 10: a very very serious set of charges. He is facing

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Speaker 10: and it is not going to go away easily. Even

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Speaker 10: if he pleads, He's going to be pleading what guilty

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Speaker 10: to something at the federal criminal level.

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Speaker 4: And Genie, in our final minute here, we know that

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Speaker 4: the judge initially assigned to this, Eileen Cannon, is a

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Speaker 4: Trump appointed judge. She's been criticized for favorable treatment of

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Speaker 4: him previously. How big an impact do you think that

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Speaker 4: could have on the result here?

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Speaker 7: It is.

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Speaker 10: It also takes away an argument from Donald Trump, who

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Speaker 10: likes to say that the entire court system is against him. Well,

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Speaker 10: Aileen Cannon certainly has not proven herself to be that.

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Speaker 10: If anything, she's been in his corner. And the idea

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Speaker 10: there's chances she would randomly receive this assignment are stunning

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Speaker 10: because there's you know, more than a dozen active federal

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Speaker 10: district court judges in Florida, So stunning she would get this.

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Speaker 10: It's just, you know, another part of this soaproper that

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Speaker 10: just keeps continuing.

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Speaker 4: It really is something, and this is why we've got

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Speaker 4: to have you and Rake on call as often as

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Speaker 4: we can to get your insights. Thank you so much

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Speaker 4: for chatting with us. We're going to come back with you.

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Speaker 4: Throughout our show, We've got Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie Shanzano

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Speaker 4: and Rick Davis joining us to talk about the impact

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Speaker 4: of former President Trump's indictment on the twenty twenty four election,

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00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 4: how this is going to affect the results of that election,

439
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 4: and of course those other candidates. We've got ten major

440
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: candidates so far, twelve total, and we expect more to

441
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,959
Speaker 4: be coming. So the big question is whether or not

442
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 4: this indictment is going to define the twenty twenty four

443
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: election as a whole. We've got more coming up on

444
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 4: sound On. This is Bloomberg.

445
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the

446
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern.

447
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: On Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com.

448
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: And the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live

449
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just

450
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

451
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 4: H'm Madison Mills in New York in for Joe Matthew. Today,

452
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 4: big news day with former President Trump's indictment dropping, we

453
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 4: got to talk about the impact this has on our

454
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 4: current president, Joe Biden having to walk a tight rope

455
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 4: following this indictment. Here's what he had to say about

456
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 4: it at the White House this morning.

457
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 2: Is the President.

458
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 11: Americans to convince that that they should trust the independence.

459
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 12: And farness of the Justice Department, where your predecessor goll

460
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 12: From repeatedly attacks.

461
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 4: Because you'll notice I have never once now, one single time,

462
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: suggesting of Justice Parmer what they should do.

463
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: Or not do, or else to bringing a charge and

464
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 3: not pre charge.

465
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 4: I'm honest and I should mention. We have breaking news here.

466
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 4: The Donald Trump indictment was unsealed in a federal court

467
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: in Miami. Again the breaking news here, Donald Trump's indictment

468
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 4: has been unsealed in a Miami federal court and that

469
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 4: classified documents probe there we're going to get in June

470
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 4: Grasso to give us the insights on this. Trump is

471
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 4: facing reci obstruction and false statement charges among the others

472
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: that we've been talking about today, including a conspiracy to

473
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 4: essentially commit fraud, among seven other charges that we knew

474
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 4: about because of some reporting on the details of that indictment.

475
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 4: So again, that's Donald Trump indictment unsealed in a Miami

476
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 4: federal court at three pm. We're going to get a

477
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 4: special council to make a statement on the Trump indictment,

478
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 4: So we're going to be able to bring you that

479
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 4: news as it comes in. Trump charges also include retention

480
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 4: of national security documents. And we know from a transcript

481
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 4: that CNN was able to obtain earlier today that former

482
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: President Donald Trump did acknowledge on tape in a twenty

483
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 4: twenty one meeting that he had retained secret military information

484
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 4: that he had not declassified. And in that transcript, in

485
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 4: the audio recording that was obtained by CNN, he said, quote,

486
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: as president, I could have declassified, but now I can't.

487
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 4: And we spoke with June Grassow Bloomer law expert earlier

488
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 4: about the importance of that exact audio coming from former

489
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 4: President Trump and the importance that that's going to hold

490
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 4: as this case goes on. We know that this case

491
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 4: is going to happen in Palm Beach County, which is

492
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: Trump turf. That's where mar A Lago is the judge

493
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 4: that has been initially appointed to the case. Eileen Cannon

494
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 4: is a judge that was appointed by former President Trump

495
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 4: as well. The indictment includes thirty seven counts of seven

496
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 4: criminal charges. Again federal indictment of Donald Trump and an

497
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: AID unsealed in a classified documents probe. We're waiting on

498
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 4: more information to come in on this. I'm going to

499
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: go to Jordan Fabian, our White House reporter here. Jordan,

500
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: thanks so much for being on with us. I know

501
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 4: that this news is just breaking here and you're covering

502
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 4: this from DC for US. What are your initial reactions

503
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 4: to this breaking news?

504
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 12: Well, Madison, I haven't had a chance to read the

505
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 12: indictment myself yet, but these are serious charges and this

506
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 12: is the most serious legal trouble that former President Donald

507
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 12: Trump has faced yet, and so he's going to have

508
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 12: to move forward now he's continuing his run for another

509
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 12: term in office, he's going to have to grapple with this.

510
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 12: And you know, I would argue this is more serious

511
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 12: than the Manhattan indictment that he's facing about, you know,

512
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 12: falsifying business records. This is a federal case. It involves

513
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 12: illiged crimes that carry actual serious prison sentences. And you know,

514
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 12: this is also, if you look at the polls, charges

515
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 12: that the American people take seriously, and not to mention

516
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 12: mishandling national security information. That's something he used against Hillary

517
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 12: Clinton during his first run for office in twenty sixteen.

518
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 12: Now he's accused by a federal grand jury of doing

519
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 12: the same thing or worse.

520
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and just a reminder here, Trump charges include retention

521
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: of national security documents. He faces conspiracy, obstructs of justice,

522
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 4: and false statement charges, among thirty seven other accounts. We're

523
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 4: going to take a look into this document and get

524
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 4: you more information on it as we get it. In

525
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 4: Jordan earlier, we were listening to President Biden talking about this.

526
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 4: He said, quote, I'm honest. Does this election turn into

527
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 4: a question of former President Trump being dishonest and President

528
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 4: Biden being honest? Is that how the Biden campaign is

529
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 4: going to play this.

530
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 12: The Biden campaign would certainly like to have this election

531
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 12: be a choice election rather than a referendum on President

532
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 12: Joe Biden. Joe Biden does not get great approval ratings.

533
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 12: If he's able to set up a choice between himself

534
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 12: and a former president who is now indicted into two jurisdictions,

535
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 12: possibly more, has the January sixth baggage hanging over him, still,

536
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 12: that is a political dynamic they want. And if you

537
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 12: look at the President and what he said over the

538
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 12: past twenty four hours, he's been very, very careful not

539
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 12: to talk about the Trump case itself. He's more than

540
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 12: happy to let Donald Trump sort of hang himself on

541
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 12: that with his public statements and let the other Republican

542
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 12: candidates challenging Donald Trump have to answer those questions instead.

543
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 4: And just to recap some of this news, a federal

544
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 4: judge in Florida has unsealed former presidents indictment. It's coming

545
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: in at forty nine pages, and this comes at the

546
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: request of Special Counsel Jack Smith. According to his spokesman,

547
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 4: Smith is going to make a statement about the case

548
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 4: at three pm from Washington, but he is not expected

549
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 4: to take questions there. So federal prosecutors unsealing this forty

550
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 4: nine page document. We're going to run through it and

551
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: see what some of the charges are. Looking through it

552
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 4: right now, I'm seeing Trump gathered newspapers, press clippings, stored boxes.

553
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 4: It says hundreds of classified documents. The classified documents Trump

554
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 4: stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons

555
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 4: capability of both the United States and foreign countries, US

556
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 4: nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its

557
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 4: allies to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation. In

558
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 4: response to a foreign attack as well. It goes on

559
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 4: to say the unauthorized disclosure of these classified documents could

560
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 4: put at risk the national security of the United States

561
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 4: foreign relations, the safety of the United States military and

562
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 4: human sources, and the continued visibility of sensitive intelligence collection

563
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: collection methods. So I want to go back to you

564
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: on this, Jordan, because you've been covering Washington for US

565
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: for some time now, and I'm certain that this is

566
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 4: an unprecedented news event for you to be covering. How

567
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 4: does this square for you with some of your coverage

568
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 4: from back when Trump was president. Does this feel like

569
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 4: something that is going to move the needle for his

570
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: supporters when it comes to his campaign, or based on

571
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 4: the coverage that you've done on Trump previously, does this

572
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 4: feel like just another the hay in the stack.

573
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

574
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 12: Looking from the thirty thousand foot view, Donald Trump was

575
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 12: the president who constantly broke norms in office, and now

576
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 12: he's crossed yet another rubicon, the first ever US president

577
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 12: to be charged with federal crimes, and that is a

578
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 12: significant historical.

579
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 3: Moment in this country.

580
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 12: That being said, if you look at his core supporters,

581
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 12: it's doubtful to me that this is going to move them.

582
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 12: In fact, it might actually embolden them to get even

583
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 12: more behind the president, and it might embolden more Republican

584
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 12: voters to do the same, maybe even some people who

585
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 12: weren't convinced that Donald Trump deserves another four years. But

586
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 12: the group I'm looking at aren't necessarily those people, but

587
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 12: it's other Republican voters and the American public at large.

588
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 12: There was a U gov poll out of a couple

589
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 12: months ago of looking at some of these legal challenges

590
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 12: facing Donald Trump, and two thirds of Americans thought that

591
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 12: keeping classified documents, mishandling classified documents.

592
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: Was a serious crime.

593
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 12: And I think over half of them thought that would

594
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 12: disqualify Trump from office. That is a large amount of people.

595
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: So even if the point is even if.

596
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 12: Trump were to win the Republican nomination again, even if

597
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 12: he's indicted, if he gets convicted, that is going to

598
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 12: turn off a large number of voters, possibly more than

599
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 12: he could afford if he wants a second term.

600
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 4: That makes a lot of sense. Jordan, thank you so

601
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 4: much again. This Trump indictment coming in now, we're trying

602
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 4: to take a look at it. But it does say

603
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 4: that on two occasions in twenty twenty one, he showed

604
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: classified documents to others. One was that July recording that

605
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 4: we've been talking about the CNN reporting where he talked

606
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 4: about showing people without clearances a classified map related to

607
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 4: a military operation. And this comes again after Donald Trump

608
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 4: has overhauled his legal team. I want to go into

609
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 4: this with our expert panel here. I want to bring

610
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 4: in Genie Shanzano and Rick Davis on this. Genie, we

611
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 4: were talking about this earlier. What are your initial reactions

612
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 4: to this indictment as you're getting this breaking news in

613
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 4: reading about it.

614
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, just looking at this now, to me, it looks

615
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 10: to be forty nine pages, which is important because this

616
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 10: means it's a speaking indictment. It is detailed as you

617
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 10: were just going through and we're all going through. One

618
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 10: of the first things I noted was around page four

619
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 10: they talk about a co conspirator. This would be a

620
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 10: valet who was working in the White House during Trump's presidency.

621
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 7: He is named here.

622
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 10: They say he became an executive assistant in the Office

623
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 10: of the President and served as his personal aid or

624
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 10: what we think of as a body man, and worked

625
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 10: very closely with Donald Trump. And the reason that is important.

626
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 10: As you were talking to June earlier, there is a

627
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 10: conspiracy charge here, so he does have a co conspirator listed.

628
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 10: That's something I noted. And then I keten on exactly

629
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 10: what you were just talking about. I think it's around

630
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 10: page fifteen. This is a very detailed document, we should

631
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 10: say so just reading through it, but they do go

632
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 10: through and actually, not only are there photographs here in

633
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 10: this incitement, but there are actually transcripts of these tapes

634
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 10: that we've been hearing so much about, and what they

635
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 10: seem to suggest is Donald Trump knew exactly what he

636
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 10: had done, and that makes this idea that he somehow

637
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 10: was negligent, didn't mean to do this and turn these

638
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 10: things back when he was asked a non starter in

639
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 10: terms of a defense.

640
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 4: Really really great analysis from Eugenie. Thank you so much

641
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 4: for that.

642
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: Rick.

643
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 4: I want to go over to you. What's standing out

644
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 4: to you so far?

645
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 9: You know, I think it's very similar to what Genie

646
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 9: was just reporting, and that is that so much of

647
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 9: this is about the cover up and not necessarily about

648
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 9: the crime itself. And obviously you have to have the

649
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 9: crime to have the cover up. But it's a classic

650
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 9: Washington story where if Donald Trump had possession of these

651
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 9: documents over three hundred by the count that I'm seeing

652
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 9: in the indictment, and had just said, hoopes, I you know,

653
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 9: accidentally brought them home and I'll return them, like Vice

654
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 9: President Pence has done, like President Biden has done, then

655
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 9: this would not have ever probably come to come to fruition.

656
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 9: But the fact that he was involved in a long time,

657
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 9: over a year long effort to shield these documents from

658
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 9: the FBI and to go through great lengths to claim

659
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 9: that he didn't possess them anymore, and at the same

660
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 9: time showing them the people who would come to visit him,

661
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 9: just the height of irresponsibility. And and so I think

662
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 9: this will go a long way toward being sort of

663
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 9: one of these classic Washington stories where you know, he

664
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 9: had a chance to come clean with this and probably

665
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 9: would have walked away unscathed. And now the conspiracy to

666
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 9: hide these documents and lie to the FBI and to

667
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 9: shield his behavior and others is going to come home

668
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 9: to roost. And this is fascinating document the way it's written.

669
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 9: I'm very glad to hear that Jack Smith is going

670
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 9: to address the public. One of the claims today that

671
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 9: went out was by I believe it was Mitt Romney

672
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 9: who said, you know, they really need to come out

673
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 9: and open up this indictment and talk about it. There

674
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 9: were earlier reports that said that this wouldn't become public

675
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 9: until Tuesday, and I think this was a mistake that

676
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 9: was made in the Manhattan case, was that those who

677
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 9: were prosecuting Donald Trump are playing from the Marcus of

678
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 9: Queensberry's rules, and Donald Trump is playing from the rules

679
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 9: of the street. And the fact that he's had two

680
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 9: days to define this thing as an attack on him

681
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 9: personally and politically without a response from the government is

682
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 9: not the way to handle this guy. And I appreciate

683
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 9: their procedures, but I think you have to think in

684
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 9: terms of where we are today as a country, and

685
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 9: they have to go out as they're going to, I

686
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 9: guess this afternoon and explain to people, sure what this

687
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 9: indictment means.

688
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 4: Sure, And President Biden also saying that he has not

689
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 4: spoken to Merrick Garland and does not have plans to

690
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 4: as well. So we're going to talk a little bit

691
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 4: more about the reaction we're getting from the White House,

692
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 4: but I want to bring in our own June Grasso

693
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 4: from Bloomberg Law on this to give us the reaction here, June,

694
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: I want to talk specifically about the line in here

695
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 4: that says the classified documents Trumps stored included information regarding

696
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 4: defense and weapons capabilities of both the US and foreign countries,

697
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 4: US nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the US and its

698
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 4: allies to military attack. That feels like a huge allegation here.

699
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: Is this as big as it sounds to me?

700
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 6: Well, it's hard to tell of how big it is

701
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 6: just reading from what we've just said. But what I'll

702
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 6: say is that this is an incredible document.

703
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 7: It's an incredible indictment.

704
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 6: It's what we were looking for in New York and

705
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 6: didn't get a speaking indictment. And in it, I mean,

706
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 6: he has listed everything and backed it up with what

707
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 6: incidents happened. He's also listed some of the documents and

708
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 6: sort of described them. Some documents Document seventeen dated January

709
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 6: twentieth concerning military capabilities of a foreign country. Another document

710
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 6: concerning foreign country supportive terrorist acts against the US. I mean,

711
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 6: these are all listed in the appendix to this, so

712
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 6: you can see some of the important information there. And

713
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 6: he's showing you that he's also, as Genie said, there

714
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 6: are pictures of that storage room at different points to

715
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 6: show you what was happening in that storage room. And

716
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 6: it says that Nado, who was also indicted, his aid

717
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 6: at the direction of Trump, did these things. And I

718
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 6: think that something that really is incredible is that there

719
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 6: are conversations and we know that there were notes taken

720
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 6: by Evan Corkran, who is was Trump's attorney, and those

721
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 6: notes attorney client privilege would normally protect those notes. However,

722
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 6: because of the crime fraud exception, the court pierced the

723
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 6: attorney client privilege. So and that's really really unusual for

724
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 6: that to be done. And so there are some examples here,

725
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 6: and I'm trying to find it because I just had

726
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 6: it there. There were examples of conversations and what Trump

727
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 6: said about those documents and about maybe not having to

728
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 6: turn them over, and that was a conversation with the lawyer,

729
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 6: and for the life of me, I can't find it

730
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 6: right out.

731
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 4: Well, I've got one conversation up here that I can

732
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 4: go to June while you take a look at that.

733
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 4: This is between two Trump employees. And we're getting some

734
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 4: news in here too about where the documents were held

735
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 4: throughout mar A Lago. It looks like somewhere in the

736
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 4: bathroom there was an office filled with them, as well

737
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 4: as a shower. But let me read you through the

738
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 4: text between these two Trump employees. So one of them

739
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 4: is saying via text, we can definitely make it work

740
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 4: if we move his papers into the lake room. So

741
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 4: it looks like they were referred to as his papers

742
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: throughout this indictment. Another employee says, there's still a little

743
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 4: room in the shower where his other stuff is. Is

744
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 4: it only his papers he cares about? And then the

745
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 4: other employee is saying, yes, anything that's not the beautiful

746
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 4: mind paper boxes can definitely go to storage. So just

747
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 4: some of the examples they're in this indictment speaking about

748
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 4: the papers and just showcasing how many individuals knew about

749
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 4: the papers. June, I want to go back to you here,

750
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: what else is sticking out to you?

751
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 6: So I found that that excerpt that we were talking about,

752
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 6: and it's under defendant's concealment of boxes. And this is

753
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 6: him meeting with Trump Attorney one in Trump Attorney two,

754
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 6: they're not identified, and he said, among other things, as

755
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 6: memorialized by Trump, attorney one, So we know that that's

756
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 6: Evan Corkoran, and we know that this is coming because

757
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 6: of the piercing of the attorney client privilege due to

758
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 6: the crime fraud exception. So some of the things he

759
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 6: said were Trump said, I don't want anybody looking I

760
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 6: don't want anybody looking through my boxes.

761
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 7: I really don't. I don't want you looking through my boxes.

762
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 6: Then he also said, well what if we what happens

763
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 6: if we just don't respond at all or don't play

764
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 6: ball with them? And these are all separate, you know,

765
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 6: statements in a conversation that we don't know the rest of.

766
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 6: Then wouldn't it be better if we just told them

767
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 6: we don't have anything here?

768
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 7: And well, look, isn't it better if there are no documents?

769
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 6: So, I mean, the amount of information that Jack Smith

770
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 6: has in here is stunning, and I think it, you know,

771
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 6: goes a long way to questioning what former President Trump

772
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 6: is going to assert as a defense, because there's a

773
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 6: lot here that goes to his intent, and a lot

774
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 6: of it is not coming from witnesses who testify at

775
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 6: the grand jury, who can be cross examined, but it's

776
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 6: coming from you know, documents and tapes and papers.

777
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 7: So it's it's really it's stunning June.

778
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 4: How unusual is it for a prosecutor to unseal an

779
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 4: indictment before the defendant shows up for an initial appearance.

780
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 6: It's done, it's done, and they could have even asked

781
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 6: the court to unseal it.

782
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 3: Sure.

783
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 6: What's odd is that little odd perhaps is that Trump

784
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 6: and his attorneys were told yesterday that he was indicted,

785
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 6: but the special counsel didn't tell them very much about

786
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 6: what was what the indictment was, so they were but

787
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 6: he gave them the opportunity.

788
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 7: To get how to head of the charges.

789
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 6: And it was so Trump announcing that he'd been indicted,

790
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 6: and then his attorneys were on you know, different shows

791
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 6: last night talking about it. So I was wondering if

792
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 6: Jack Smith was going to wait until Tuesday to unse it,

793
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 6: to have the un excuse me, to have the indictment

794
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 6: unsealed in court and given to the Trump attorneys and Trump,

795
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 6: you know, shortly before he appeared makes his appearance before

796
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 6: the court, or whether he would take the opportunity to

797
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 6: release it. And you know, people were saying, well, it's

798
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 6: special counsel and he does things by the book, but

799
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 6: now you know he's this is still by the book.

800
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 7: Of course you can now have it unsealed.

801
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 6: But now he's going to have a press conference, and

802
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 6: I think it's going to be incredibly important for him

803
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 6: to get out the prosecution side of the story.

804
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: Yep, yep, Jun, thank you so much. I know you've

805
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 4: got to read through those forty nine pages. So we

806
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 4: are going to go to uh Rick and Jennie again

807
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 4: our panel. Genie, I know that you've been pouring over

808
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 4: the indictment. Can you give me a little bit more

809
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 4: on what you're noticing.

810
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it's it is a stunning is the word.

811
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 10: They have in detail about the type of information he

812
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 10: was storing at Maro Lago, this entertainment club down in Florida,

813
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 10: which is hardly secure. This includes information, they write on

814
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 10: page two, that was regarding defense and weapons capabilities of

815
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 10: both the United States and foreign countries, the US nuclear programs,

816
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 10: potential vulnerabilities to the US and its allies to military attacks,

817
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 10: possible retaliation in response to foreign attacks, and they say

818
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 10: that they put at risk the national security of the

819
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 10: US and foreign relations, the safety of US military and

820
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 10: human sources in the world. That is what he had

821
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 10: in those boxes over these three hundred documents, and on

822
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 10: two occasions they detail later in this page going to

823
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 10: the next page, that he was showing this information to

824
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 10: people that were visiting. So it is absolutely stunning, incredibly

825
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 10: well written and detailed. I mean, you know, the fact

826
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 10: that they are telling a narrative, telling a story, and

827
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 10: the detail in which they go into makes it seem

828
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 10: very difficult that he is going to have any defense.

829
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 10: Not to mention, he has a co conspirator here who

830
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 10: is also going to provide evidence to the prosecutors.

831
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it looks like prosecutors presented evidence that Trump shared

832
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 4: a highly sensitive plan of attack against Iran with visitors

833
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 4: to his new Jersey golf club in twenty twenty one,

834
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 4: and then also that top secret military map with a

835
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 4: staff member as well. It also sounds like those documents

836
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 4: were not just in one sort of storage room. It

837
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: looks like they were found in the ballroom, in a bathroom,

838
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 4: and a shower, lots of different locations. So, Rick, come

839
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: on in here. What else is standing out to you

840
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 4: as you read through?

841
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was impressed by the fact that showing these

842
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 9: documents that you just described to the authors of his

843
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 9: former Chief of staffs book. He was doing it in

844
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 9: the context of attacking Mark Milly, his chairman of the

845
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 9: Joint Chiefs of Staff over who actually was asking for

846
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 9: an invasion of Iran. I mean, it was just beyond

847
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 9: my comprehension that that would be some reason that you

848
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 9: would use secret information to show an author to, you know,

849
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 9: legitimatize an attack on somebody who was in your administration.

850
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 9: And so, you know, it just reminds you sort of

851
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 9: this grievance attitude that he has in total disregard for

852
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 9: the fact that these were top secret documents showing to people.

853
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 9: And I think this other point you make about these

854
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 9: things being all over the place. I was just reading

855
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 9: through the narrative of all the different locations that they

856
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 9: had these boxes, and how they even lost track of

857
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 9: where they were and what to do with them. And

858
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 9: they were all over the place, and as Genie said,

859
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 9: in a private club that you know, had people coming

860
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 9: and going. I mean, somewhere you stored right next to

861
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 9: the liquor closet and and things like that. I mean,

862
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 9: it really paints this sort of dysfunctional situation and why

863
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 9: in the world Donald Trump thought that he could maintain

864
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 9: secrecy around something this flagrant is beyond my comprehension.

865
00:48:58,520 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 4: All right, well, what that? We are going to say

866
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: bye to our panel of contributors, Genie shan Zeno and

867
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 4: Rick Davis. Thank you so much.

868
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the

869
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,120
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870
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,399
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871
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,360
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874
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 6: Wow.

875
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 4: I'm going to be joined by Kaylee Lines in a

876
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 4: moment here, who is going to host the rest of

877
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 4: this hour with us. Kaylee, thank you so much for

878
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 4: coming back on. And I know that you just had

879
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 4: to go through this breaking news on television for us

880
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 4: as well, so we can give you a second to

881
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 4: come on in here. But I want to go over

882
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 4: to Wendy Benjaminson with you. Wendy, thanks so much for

883
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 4: getting on the line with us. What's sticking out to

884
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: you here?

885
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 13: Well, I have to say, as we're going through the

886
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 13: indictment here, we have people, lots of people reading it,

887
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 13: and jar is just not only how cavalier President Trump

888
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 13: was with with serious secrets. These were these were documents

889
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 13: about Iran. This wasn't, you know, a proclamation for National

890
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 13: Squirrel Month or whatever. These were documents about national security

891
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 13: concerns with Iran. And he was showing them to representatives

892
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 13: of the super Pack and saying, hey, these are secrets,

893
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 13: you know, don't tell anyone. And these people had no

894
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 13: security clearance whatsoever. And then also I'm seeing in the

895
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 13: indictment that he was saying, hey, you know, do we

896
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 13: when we when they got the request to return the documents,

897
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 13: they were saying, he was saying to people, do I

898
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 13: really have to return them? Can we just can we

899
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 13: just pretend they're not here? It's it's just, especially after

900
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 13: his criticism of Hillary Clinton for her mishandling of classified documents,

901
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 13: it's really stunning.

902
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 14: Yeah, well, and it's it's Keeley here, Wendy. I'm now

903
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 14: processed and have been you know, pouring through the document

904
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 14: over the last several minutes. But I looked at, you know,

905
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 14: on account by count basis, Yes, there's thirty one counts

906
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 14: here of just the retention of national defense information. But

907
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 14: then these other counts thirty two, thirty three, thirty four,

908
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 14: thirty five, thirty six, thirty seven. It's about concealing, withholding,

909
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 14: conspiracy to obstruct justice, false statements. So, and I'm wondering,

910
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 14: as we also think about, you know, his former Vice

911
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 14: president Mike Pence, who was cleared in his own documents investigation,

912
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 14: the one ongoing regarding President Biden, if that's what makes

913
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,439
Speaker 14: this this different, the withholding of it in the obstruction part.

914
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 13: Absolutely, that is what makes this different. And it's what

915
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 13: makes it different from the Pence case and the Biden case,

916
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 13: which Trump and a lot of his allies are saying,

917
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 13: the Justice Department is a two tiered system, one for Democrats,

918
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 13: one for Republicans. President Joe Biden improperly kept classified documents

919
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 13: going back decades when they were discovered, and perhaps they

920
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 13: should have been discovered earlier. But when they were discovered,

921
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 13: his response was my bad, Please come in and get them.

922
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 13: He invited the FBI into his home to take them

923
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 13: directly to the archives. What you're seeing here today is

924
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 13: President Donald Trump saying, you know, no, tell them, we

925
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 13: don't have them. I don't want to give them up.

926
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 8: You know.

927
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 13: And this year's long, well documented literally obstruction, whether it's

928
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 13: legal obstruction or just you know, the our casual notion

929
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 13: of obstruction. But he did not want to give those

930
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 13: documents back, and that's a federal crime. This is extremely serious.

931
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 4: And when you look at the national security implications, particularly

932
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 4: this document that he showed some of his visitors to

933
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 4: the golf course in New Jersey talking about a plan

934
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 4: regarding Iran, are the national security implication here a critical

935
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 4: piece to you as well? I mean, those feels feel

936
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 4: like huge allegations.

937
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 13: They are huge allegations that we don't know enough yet

938
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 13: to know what secrets actually spilled. We know it was

939
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 13: about Iran, we know, but anything that the US is

940
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 13: doing with Iran must have severe national security implications. This

941
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 13: is an adversarial government. This is a government that is

942
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 13: an adversary of some of our closest allies like Israel,

943
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,280
Speaker 13: and anything that we would be thinking about with Iran,

944
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 13: it could have been about the nuclear deal to prevent

945
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 13: Iran from developing nuclear weapons. All of these are incredibly serious.

946
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 13: There is no casual, documented president of the United States

947
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 13: would have about Iran's.

948
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 4: Wendie, thank you so much for joining us. It's always

949
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 4: amazing to get your take on these big, big news events.

950
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for that. Again. We're just here

951
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 4: discussing the unsealing of this indictment against former President Trump

952
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 4: by Madison Mills here with Kaylee Lions joining us. We're

953
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 4: going to go to Professor Alan Rosenstein, Associate Professor of

954
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 4: Law at the University of Minnesota and senior editor at

955
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 4: law Fair as well. Professor, great to have you on

956
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 4: as you're reading through this indictment. What is standing out

957
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 4: to you so far?

958
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 11: Well, the big thing, of course, is just that this

959
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 11: is the first ever federal indictment of a former president,

960
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 11: and I think that's important to keep in mind just

961
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 11: as a general matter going through the indictment, and I'll

962
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 11: admit I haven't spent a lot of time with it,

963
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 11: and it's quite quite lengthy, but a few things in

964
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 11: particular stand out. First is just the serious of the

965
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 11: seriousness of the documents at issue. Right up front, the

966
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 11: indictment points out that these documents involved information about America's

967
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 11: nuclear weapons, about some of the closely held most closely

968
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 11: held secrets in the United States, and in addition that

969
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,479
Speaker 11: Trump not only had these documents unlawfully but he also

970
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 11: shared these documents, shared information about them with others once

971
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 11: he was no longer president, including about potential attacks on Iran. So,

972
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 11: just on the substantive issue of mishandling and having documents

973
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 11: that Trump should not have known about, these are documents

974
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 11: of the sort of greatest seriousness. And then the other

975
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 11: thing that really stands out to me is the copious

976
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 11: evidence of Trump's knowledge that he shouldn't have had these documents,

977
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 11: trump knowledge that the government wanted them back, Trump's desire

978
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 11: to keep them, and his engagement in a variety of

979
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 11: schemes to obscure and obstruct justice. And this is particularly

980
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 11: important for two reasons. First, it goes to Trump's intent

981
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 11: this was not just an accident, But second it goes

982
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 11: to a set of very serious charges regarding obstruction of

983
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 11: justice and conspiracy. It's a cliche often that it's not

984
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 11: the crime, but it's the cover up. Here you have

985
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 11: the crime and a very serious cover up as well.

986
00:55:59,160 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 8: Well.

987
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 14: So it raises the question, Professor, of how easy or

988
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 14: difficult this case is for the prosecution. I mean, are

989
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 14: the cards stacked against Trump here based on what we're

990
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 14: seeing in this indictment? I mean, just the likelihood of

991
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 14: him being found guilty for at least, you know, some

992
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 14: of these charges. What's your read on this.

993
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 11: I think that's right. I mean, I think the cards

994
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 11: are stacked against him. I just want to emphasize not unfairly.

995
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 11: Trump has committed a variety of or alleged to have

996
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 11: commit a variety of very serious offenses, and he's done

997
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 11: so in a very brazen way. This is not a

998
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 11: fundamentally complicated case. The legal issues are not particularly complicated.

999
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 11: There's plenty of evidence here that does not trench on

1000
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 11: difficult questions of you know, whether Trump had the authority

1001
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 11: as commander in chief to automatically silently declassify as he

1002
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 11: has sometimes claimed. And that's just because for a number

1003
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 11: of these documents, we now have evidence, including audio evidence,

1004
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 11: that Trump explicitly admitted that he never declassified this information.

1005
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 11: And so, again, as a legal matter, this is not

1006
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 11: a complicated case. Now, of course, what does make it

1007
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 11: complicated is the identity of the defendant. And this is

1008
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 11: always going to be an unprecedented case given that Trump

1009
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 11: is a former president, not just that, but the front

1010
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 11: runner for the Republican presidential nomination.

1011
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really.

1012
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 14: Glad You brought that up because if you think that

1013
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 14: the prosecution has a pretty strong case here and that

1014
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 14: you know there is a chance that he will be

1015
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 14: convicted of at least some of these federal crimes, what

1016
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 14: does that legally mean for his candidacy and whether or

1017
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 14: not he could seek the presidency be president if we're

1018
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 14: talking potential prison time here.

1019
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 11: So I obviously, again we're in relatively uncharted territory, but

1020
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 11: I think that the answer is actually quite straightforward, and

1021
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 11: that this implies nothing legally for his candidacy.

1022
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 14: Is he protected because he's an ex president.

1023
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 11: He's not protected. He can go to jail without question,

1024
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 11: but that doesn't change that has no bearing on whether

1025
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 11: he can campaign for president. In fact, we have a president.

1026
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 11: Eugene Devs, the former the head of the then Socialist

1027
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 11: Party of the United States, was in jail when he

1028
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 11: campaigned for the presidency in the nineteen tens. He was

1029
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 11: in jail over oz opposition to World War One. He

1030
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 11: campaigned for president and got millions of votes. Now, he

1031
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 11: never really came close to winning the presidency, so we

1032
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 11: never had to deal with, I mean more serious question

1033
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 11: of not whether someone can run for president while under

1034
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 11: indictment or in jail, they certainly can. But what happens

1035
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 11: if someone wins the presidency while they are in jail.

1036
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 11: That's a pretty nightmarish scenario, which you know, we can

1037
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 11: talk about. But that is definitely going to be an

1038
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 11: important issue because honestly, if I read this indictment, I

1039
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 11: think it's very likely that Trump will be found guilty,

1040
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 11: and if so, I think very likely that he will

1041
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 11: go to prison.

1042
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 4: So if he's able to delay this, drag out the timeline,

1043
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 4: which we've seen him do previously, if he wins this election,

1044
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 4: if he drags this out, could he pardon himself if

1045
00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 4: he gets back into office.

1046
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 11: That is an another interesting question that scholars have debated

1047
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 11: at length, and I would say that there's no consensus.

1048
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 11: The pardon power that's in the Constitution applies, of course

1049
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 11: to all federal crimes, and it does not have any

1050
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 11: carve out for self pardons. At the same time, there

1051
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 11: are some fundamental legal principles that no person should be

1052
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 11: the judge of their own case, and so some scholars,

1053
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 11: and more importantly, the Office of Legal Counsel, which is

1054
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 11: a very important part of the Department of Justice, has

1055
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 11: argued that a president cannot pardon themselves. Even if the

1056
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 11: president could not pardon himself, the question is whether or

1057
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 11: not a sentencing or a conviction could go into force

1058
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 11: while an individual is president. Again, this is we are

1059
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 11: really speculating here. My guess would be that if Trump

1060
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 11: were president, then the conviction and certainly sentence would be

1061
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 11: paused for the duration of his presidency.

1062
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 14: And just quickly, professor, we only have a about a

1063
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 14: minute left. But obviously this isn't necessarily the end of

1064
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 14: Trump's legal woes. He's still being investigated in an ongoing

1065
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 14: manner by the Justice Department and a district attorney in

1066
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 14: Georgia related to twenty twenty and his attempts to overturn

1067
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 14: the results of the election. But are these the most

1068
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 14: serious charges you think he potentially could face even if

1069
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 14: he is indicted in some of these other instances.

1070
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 11: So it depends how you define serious in terms of

1071
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 11: the substance of charges. No, there are more serious charges.

1072
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 11: I think the interfering in the Georgia election is more serious,

1073
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 11: certainly January sixth, than if there's an incitement insurrection charge.

1074
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 11: That's far more serious. But in terms of seriousness, as

1075
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 11: in it's a serious substance of charge, and it's very

1076
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 11: likely to stand up in court and lead to jail time.

1077
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 11: I suspect this is in fact the most serious case

1078
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 11: because it's so straightforward and legally not that complicated.

1079
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 4: All right, professor, thank you so much. We're going to

1080
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 4: have to leave it there. That was Professor Allen Rosenstein,

1081
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 4: Associate Professor of law at the University of Minnesota. He's

1082
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 4: also a senior editor at law Fair breaking this down

1083
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 4: for us. I want to point out one other quote,

1084
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 4: Kaylee with an attorney. In a conversation Trump had with

1085
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 4: that attorney, he said, I don't want anybody looking through

1086
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 4: my boxes. The attorney said, wouldn't it be better if

1087
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 4: we just told them we don't have anything here? And

1088
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 4: then said, well, look, isn't it better if there are

1089
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 4: no documents? So just a lot to read through in

1090
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 4: this indictment here, Kaylee, can't wait to get you in

1091
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 4: here more with us throughout the show and get your

1092
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 4: take as well.

1093
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's quite a day, a history making day, Madison.

1094
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 4: It really is. It really is, So stick with us here.

1095
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 4: We're going to continue to break down this news for

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01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 4: you on sound on This is Bloomberg.

1097
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the

1098
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern.

1099
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: On Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and.

1100
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 3: The Bloomberg Business App.

1101
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

1102
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven.

1103
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 4: I'm Madison Mills in New York with Kaylae Lions in

1104
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 4: d C. Kaylee has been covering the unsealing of this

1105
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 4: historic indictment against former President Trump. Kaylee, what do we

1106
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 4: need to know about the latest of this indictment.

1107
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 14: Well, what we know now that this has been unsealed, Maddie,

1108
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 14: is that there are seven charges, thirty seven counts in total. Now,

1109
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 14: the bulk of those counts, thirty one of them, are

1110
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 14: about wilful retention of national defense information. So this is,

1111
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 14: you know, the documents that the president, the former president,

1112
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 14: when he was no longer president, kept stored in boxes

1113
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 14: at mar A Lago. Then the rest of the counts

1114
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 14: are kind of related to his handling of the investigation

1115
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 14: and those documents. Conspiracy to obstruct justice with holding a

1116
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 14: document a record, corruptly concealing a documentar record, concealing a

1117
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 14: document in a federal investigation, investigation, scheme to conceal, and

1118
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 14: false statements and representation. So there's really two parts of this.

1119
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 14: One the fact that he had these very nationally security

1120
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 14: sensitive documents in his possessi once he left the White House,

1121
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 14: but then also everything that came after it. In the indictment,

1122
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 14: they say that once the FBI criminal investigation was opened,

1123
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 14: Trump endeavored to obstruct the FBI and grand jury investigation

1124
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 14: and conceal his continued retention of classified documents. And obviously, Mattie,

1125
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 14: this is a big moment in history because this is

1126
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 14: the first time a former president has ever been charged

1127
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 14: with federal crimes. So let's talk about what this means

1128
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 14: ultimately for the Republican Party. Doug High is joining us now.

1129
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 14: He is the former RNC communications director and a Republican strategist. So, Doug,

1130
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 14: I mean, you used to be at the RNC. How

1131
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 14: miserable is their job dealing with this today? What does

1132
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 14: this mean more broadly for the party.

1133
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 15: Well, it's good news and bad news if you're the

1134
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 15: RNC or the other party committees. You know what we

1135
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 15: see as we've seen a lot of Republicans rally around

1136
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 15: Trump on this, they're able to raise a lot more money.

1137
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 15: This is something that when they send out the email

1138
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 15: to their donor base, they're going to get a robust

1139
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 15: response on So on the unraising side, it's positive. On

1140
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 15: the rest of it, it's very difficult because what you

1141
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 15: have is obviously the front runner is Donald Trump, and

1142
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 15: that remains true, but this makes it harder for him

1143
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 15: to win in a general And at a certain point

1144
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 15: this weekend in Greensboro, North Carolina, at the Republican North

1145
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 15: Carolina Republican Party Convention, where Trump, Pence, and DeSantis are

1146
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 15: all speaking at may give this these other Republicans running

1147
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 15: their opportunity to make some kind of a break with

1148
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 15: Trump and point out that he may not be electable

1149
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 15: next November, that he's distracted, and that they need somebody

1150
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 15: laser focused on beating Joe Biden, and that Donald Trump,

1151
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 15: rightly or wrongly, just can't do that.

1152
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 4: At this point, does this campaign, does this upcoming election

1153
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 4: become defined by this indictment, whether you're Trump or those

1154
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 4: competing against him.

1155
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 15: It is part of the definition of this and what

1156
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 15: we've seen so far from most Republicans who've commented on

1157
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 15: this is something about weaponization of the Department of Justice

1158
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 15: and so forth, not necessarily a defense of Donald Trump

1159
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 15: didn't do anything wrong, but using this as a way

1160
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 15: to go after the Department of Justice and by extension,

1161
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 15: obviously Joe Biden. That's going to continue. But if Donald

1162
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 15: Trump is not the nominee for whatever reason, that's going

1163
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 15: to change some of these dynamics in ways that I

1164
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 15: don't think.

1165
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 3: We really know yet.

1166
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a very tricky hand to play.

1167
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 14: If you're another candidate who doesn't want to alienate the

1168
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 14: former president's base, but you also want to throw jobs

1169
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 14: when you can, it probably is going to be difficult

1170
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 14: for them to navigate throughout the duration of this primary campaign.

1171
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,439
Speaker 14: But they also there is also the question of whether

1172
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 14: or not these candidates are going to have to, potentially,

1173
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 14: assuming he stays the front runner, pledge support to him

1174
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 14: even if he's been indicted multiple times on federal charges

1175
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 14: and other charges.

1176
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 15: Absolutely, And the reality is, if you're running for the

1177
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 15: Republican nomination, that nomination doesn't go around Donald Trump, it

1178
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 15: goes through him. And so if you want the nomination

1179
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 15: at some point and at some level you're going to

1180
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 15: have to take Trump on yourself. You can't depend on

1181
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 15: others to do it. And you can't just ignore this

1182
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 15: or say that Donald Trump is the victim of everything.

1183
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 15: And again, you can just say there's too much drama,

1184
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 15: there's too much chaos around him, and we need somebody

1185
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 15: who doesn't have that, which may have some of that separation.

1186
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,959
Speaker 15: But what we don't know at this point is will

1187
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 15: that be something that the base goes along with.

1188
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 4: So we're getting really varied reactions from the other candidates here.

1189
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 4: On one end of the spectrum, you got Asa Hudginson

1190
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 4: saying that he should drop out of the race, and

1191
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 4: then you've got former Vice President Mike Pence. Take a

1192
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 4: listen to what he had to say today.

1193
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 3: The news that broke last night. I had hoped it

1194
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't come to this.

1195
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 10: I had hoped the Department of Justice would see it's

1196
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 10: way clear to the resolve.

1197
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 9: These issues with the former president without moving forward with charges.

1198
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 8: And I'm deeply troubled to see this indictment move forward.

1199
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 4: So, Doug, which of these two strategies do you think

1200
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 4: is going to be more effective going full on punch

1201
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 4: in the mouth against Trump or focusing a little bit

1202
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 4: more on the doj Well, you.

1203
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 15: Can do both, I think, and that's what's going to

1204
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 15: be interesting. As we've now seen that the indictment has

1205
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 15: been unsealed, we're going to hear from the Special Council

1206
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 15: here pretty soon that may answer some of those questions. Yes,

1207
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 15: you can be troubled that a former president was indicted.

1208
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 15: It is obviously something that's never happened in our history

1209
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 15: before quite like this, and also come to the realization

1210
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 15: that a, maybe Donald Trump did do something wrong which

1211
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 15: is why he got indicted, and b that this makes

1212
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 15: it harder for Trump to win and if you want

1213
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,919
Speaker 15: to be the nominee, hope is not really a strategy here.

1214
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 15: You're going to have to confront Trump at some point

1215
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 15: and at some level.

1216
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 14: But as we talk about the former president himself, we

1217
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 14: often talk about how he has this firm base of supporters,

1218
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 14: call it thirty percent or whatever of the Republican Party

1219
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 14: who no matter what he does or going to be

1220
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 14: with him steadfastly. Then it becomes a question of everyone

1221
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 14: else in the party and whether or not they would

1222
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 14: kind of buy the argument that Trump is being treated

1223
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 14: differently by the justice system than Pence or Biden in

1224
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 14: the document's investigation, or Hillary Clinton and the emails, like

1225
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 14: we all were talking about when Trump ran against her

1226
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 14: in twenty sixteen. Does that message resonate with the non

1227
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 14: Trump part of the Republican Party.

1228
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 3: It potentially does.

1229
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 15: And certainly what we see is there's a large part

1230
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 15: of the We always talk about Trump's base, and we

1231
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 15: know that they're largely immovable, but there's a large part

1232
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 15: of the party that just wants to move on from

1233
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 15: all of this, even if they supported Donald Trump, you know,

1234
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:53,959
Speaker 15: in twenty sixteen, certainly in twenty twenty for his reelect.

1235
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 15: And I think Republicans should be mindful here that the

1236
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 15: conversation isn't just about Republicans. And you look at the

1237
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 15: states that Trump won in twenty sixteen, but Joe Biden

1238
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 15: flipped Arizona being a great example. This was done because

1239
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 15: of suburban voters, people who voted for Donald Trump one

1240
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 15: time and after four years they were exhausted of the

1241
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 15: chaos and of the drama and of all the headlines.

1242
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,600
Speaker 15: We're not getting those voters back with Donald Trump, and

1243
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 15: if we want to win and winning as a key

1244
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 15: part of Ron De Santis's message, Obviously they're going to

1245
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 15: have to emphasize that and do so loudly and repeatedly.

1246
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:33,679
Speaker 4: Well, we've got over what five hundred day is until

1247
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 4: this election in November twenty twenty four. Is it appropriate

1248
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 4: for us to even be talking about Trump as the

1249
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 4: de facto candidate for the GOP? Do you think that

1250
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 4: this moves the needle on the way we talk about that.

1251
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 15: Well, he's certainly the front runner, and you know there's

1252
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,440
Speaker 15: that standard line if the election were today. It's obviously

1253
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,799
Speaker 15: not today. But Donald Trump is in the strongest position

1254
01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 15: to get the nomination. It doesn't mean that he will.

1255
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 15: Quite often, the person who's leading a year and a

1256
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 15: half out or so isn't the person who's the nominee

1257
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 15: or or ultimately the president. But Republicans are operating in

1258
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 15: that space that Donald Trump sucks up so much oxygen,

1259
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 15: He creates and emits so much energy that you can't

1260
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 15: really operate around him, Which is why I say you're

1261
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 15: going to have to confront Darth Vader at some point,

1262
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 15: and if you're hoping that somebody can do it for you,

1263
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 15: that seems to be, as we've learned in the past,

1264
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 15: a fool's errand so.

1265
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,840
Speaker 14: Then a question on the other side of the aisle

1266
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 14: and the Democratic candidate President Biden in all likelihood not

1267
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 14: commenting on this, not wanting to be vocal on it. Doug,

1268
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 14: what do you make of that, because obviously you want

1269
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 14: to avoid the perception of this being politically charged, as

1270
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 14: Trump is trying to portray. But this is still the

1271
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 14: man Biden very well could be facing in the general

1272
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 14: election come twenty twenty four. So why not capitalize on

1273
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 14: this moment.

1274
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 15: If you try to capitalize on it, you immediately politicize it.

1275
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 15: And if Biden were to say anything even that the

1276
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:10,719
Speaker 15: allegations are troubling, which an indictment certainly is, that runs

1277
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 15: the risk of this being politicized or further politicized. And

1278
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 15: so he's very smart to stay out of this, and

1279
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,839
Speaker 15: you can let the arguments make themselves. In other words,

1280
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 15: we're all looking at what's in this indictment. We're seeing

1281
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 15: some photos and things like that. There's really nothing that

1282
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 15: Joe Biden can say that's going to increase that. All

1283
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 15: he could do is maybe you cut some of those

1284
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 15: concerns short by speaking out and then allowing Trump or

1285
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 15: other Republicans to say Joe Biden's Department of Justice is

1286
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 15: politicizing this. They're saying that right now, but if Biden

1287
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 15: were to comment, that really could give it some credence.

1288
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 14: All right, well, it was really great to get your

1289
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 14: insight and perspective on this. Doug, appreciate the time on

1290
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 14: this historic day that was Doug High, former RNC communications

1291
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 14: director and Republican strategist.

1292
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 12: Thanks for listening to The Sound On podcast.

1293
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 9: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify,

1294
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,760
Speaker 9: and anywhere else you get your podcasts, and you can

1295
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 9: find us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one

1296
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 9: pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com