WEBVTT - #271 Jason Flom with Howard Dudley 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.520 With the rise of dual income households throughout the eighties 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.600 and nineties, an unprecedented number of families were relying on 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.920 near strangers for childcare. Subsequently, a wave of child sex 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.360 abuse hysteria began, in which any claim at all from 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.320 a child was granted credence, no matter how outlandish or 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.360 probably false they were. At this time, Howard Dudley and 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.440 Diane Moore were jointly raising their daughter Amy, but were 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.240 never married. Eventually, Howard found her a nude sense of faith, 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.240 met his wife, and had two sons. Even though Howard 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.720 paid child support and maintained a presence in Amy's life, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.600 one can imagine that Howard's new willingness to settle down 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.880 was not well received by the mother of his first 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:46.479 child or her family, including Amy's babysitter, Lydia May Starkey. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.480 On October thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, Amy allegedly told miss 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:54.440 Starkey that her father was quote nasty, already prime to 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.800 believe the worst about Howard, and demanding an explanation. Starkey 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.000 began a series of suggestive questions, and Amy allegedly claimed 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.600 sexual abuse. To look out for Amy's best interest. During 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.039 the social Services investigation. She was assigned at Guardian ad Ltam, 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.920 who determined that Amy's story was untrue. Nonetheless, the trend 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.440 demanded that credence be granted to the child's claims, triggering 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:21.200 Howard's arrest. The prosecution ignored and hid the Guardian ed 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.600 Lam's recommendation, and even though Amy recanted her allegations immediately 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.200 after trial, Howard's been nearly twenty five years in prison 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:46.560 as a child sex offender. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.200 back to wrongful conviction. I feel a deep sense of 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:53.640 responsibility to share this story because it's unique in terms 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.360 of the almost three hundred episodes we've done, but it's 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.480 not unique because it was a common story at the 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.360 time that it was happening. It's the story of a 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:07.040 man named Howard Dudley who was convicted of a crime 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:12.280 that never happened, and who spent almost three decades incarcerated 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:17.880 because of a series of lies, superstitions, hysteria that sort 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.799 of swept the nation. So before I introduce the other 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.080 distinguished guest who we have on here, I want to 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.359 introduce mister Dudley himself, Howard Dudley. Welcome to RAFEL conviction. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.320 Good morning, excited about being here this morning. 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.440 Well, listen, I'm excited to have you here. I'm sorry 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.280 you're here because of what you went through with Howard. 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.840 Today is a remarkable woman named Teresa Newman. Teresa is 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.359 recently retired, but she was a clinical professor of law 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.000 amereta at Duke Law. So this is a serious person. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.880 You don't get that title by not being tough and smart. 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.280 And you also don't get Howard Dudley out of prison 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.440 without those qualities and characteristics. So Teresa, thank. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.840 You for being here, Thank you so much for having us. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.080 And this story is outrageous. Stories like this have actually 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.120 kept me up at night. And I mean again, this 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.400 one is this is about as bad as it gets, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:15.880 but it isn't unique, and that's why I think it's 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:17.440 all the more important that we tell it. But Howard, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.680 before we get into the story itself, let's talk about 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.600 your youth. You grew up in a small town in 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:24.880 North Carolina. Is that right? 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.720 That's correct, that's right, a little town called Institute. I 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:34.519 grew up in a home mom and dad and nine siblings. 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:39.440 And my dad had quick rules and he enforced the talk, 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.960 the work they're out of trouble not to go out 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:43.040 and disperse the family. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.240 Name. Yeah, I guess with that many kids, you'd have 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.760 to have some strict rules or it'd be pure chaos. 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.080 But it sounds like your parents instilled some good values 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.520 in you. And I also understand that you played guitar 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.080 and still do, and eventually you grew up and that 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.440 a woman named Diane Moore. You had a daughter together 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.120 named Amy. But it appears that you never intend on 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.400 marrying Diane and weren't ready to settle down. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.600 I wasn't really a good boyfriend. I ad met to 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.120 that right there. But we worked out between the court 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.760 and myself and Amoy's mother that I could spend time 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:12.720 with her. She spent weekends with me. We had a 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.160 great relationship and we was on good. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.479 Terms, I thought. And while you two tolerated each other 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.920 for the good of your daughter, Diane ended up becoming 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.799 infected with HIV and she was very ill for a while. 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:28.240 So a relative named Lydia may Starkey began shouldering more 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.880 of Diane's into the bargain. But nonetheless, you moved on 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:31.640 with your life. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.920 I met my wife and we got married. She would 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.760 accept me as I was, and after marriage we had 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.680 a son named Dennis who's a musician today, and the 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.200 Adrian living a productive life. I would determine to make 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.919 a good life for my children, and that was my endeavor. 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.440 I worked, my wife went to college, and her last 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.960 year in school she had a major squote, and so 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.160 basically I was the provider for my family. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.719 So at this time, you were provided for your family, 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.360 living in a trailer while paying child support for Amy, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.479 who would join you on the weekends and during the 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.360 week her relative, Lydia Mace Darkey would care for her 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.680 as Diane's health continued to deteriorate. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.520 The babysitter she called Howard mean because he had broken 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.360 up with Diane Moore, who she later died of age 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.800 she was ill, and then Howard, moving on with life, 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.719 became born again. Christian got married, had these two kids. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:27.080 So one could easily see how some really you know, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.359 hard hurt feelings could develop, making it easy for Lydia 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.400 May to believe horrible things about you, and later on 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.640 maybe even to cajole young Amy into making wild accusations 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.400 that she would later recant. Amy, as I understand, was 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.480 a bit more susceptible to suggestion, as she had some 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.120 intellectual limitations. But even before we get into the specifics 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.800 of your case, I think it's important to mention that 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.479 this time period, the late eighties and early nineties, was 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.760 the absolute height of a wave of child sex abuse hysteria, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.200 and cases were weeping across the country, one nonsensical case 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.240 after the other, and I think probably the most widely 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.480 known one was the McMartin preschool, but very close by 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.680 to Howard and his family in North Carolina was a 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.560 Little Rascals daycare center, where the accusations were beyond absurd, 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.320 I mean just absolutely outlandish things that a kid might 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.560 conjure up on the spot. Now that's not to say 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:25.760 that there perhaps weren't some real allegations among the false ones, 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.240 but in that climate, social services, police and eventually juries 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.640 were buying the allegations, credible or not. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:36.679 Absolutely. And I wasn't a lawyer when these cases were 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:41.839 sweeping the nation and frankly internationally, but I remember, just 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.120 like you, Jason, reading it and thinking these were fantasy allegations. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.479 And people have different theories about what led to this 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.760 period of near hysteria, but I think many believe it 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:59.240 was a time of two parent families. Both parents were working, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.520 children were being taken care of by strangers or near strangers, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:09.960 and all it takes is rumor and innuendo that something 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.160 untoured is happening in these places. And the Little Rascals 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.840 is a great example, and that's right here in North Carolina. 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.480 The trial which was against every worker and owner at 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.160 that daycare center. That trial was occurring for the owner 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.600 of the center, just minutes away from where Howard Dudley lived. 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.080 The stories were in the New York Times, were in 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.960 the international papers, were in every local newspaper, and in 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.720 that one newborn babies were being tossed to sharks off 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:44.040 the coast of North Carolina. There were pirate ship allegations. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.119 Clearly the stories of children. But the other important piece 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.560 of this period of time was that no research had 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.240 really been conducted on whether young children could fabricate such stories. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:01.240 So if they told you a quote story, that story 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.440 had to be true. Any listener who is a parent 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:09.240 today knows that that's a crazy notion. Children make up 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.600 stories all the time. They lived in fantasy. But that 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.840 was that period. Today it is known that children can 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.400 line that it's really important to conduct interviews of children 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.960 in a certain way that the medical evidence that was 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.200 believed to be dispositive abuse at the time. 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.920 Is not a friend of mine named Gus Gussler. I 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.560 don't know if he ever came across him, but he's 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.480 a criminal defense lawyer for a long time in North 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.400 Carolina and he defended one of these cases. He was 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.280 actually representing a man who was a golf pro whose 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.640 wife operated a day care facility, and just because he 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:43.559 would go and pick her up from work once in 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.720 a while, he got caught up in it as well. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.640 And I believe he got convicted because at the time 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.400 it was just like everybody was just believing anything that 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.559 anybody said. And of course these were crimes that never 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:55.319 even happened. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.400 We represent one of the last surviving multi defendant, multi 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.600 children cases from this period, and the man was convicted 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.160 in nineteen eighty seven and it absolutely nothing happened. But 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.480 he was a van driver for a daycare center with 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.600 some cognitively impaired adults on the van as well, and 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.240 two of those adults were boyfriend and girlfriend, and they 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.679 were doing as the children said, the married people were 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.000 doing married people things on the bus and that's how 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.920 it started. And it ended up with our client Junior 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.480 Chandler in prison since nineteen eighty seven and we'll be 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.559 there for the rest of his life unless we can 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.600 successfully petition the cord. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.680 There are still so many people suffering in prison, like 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.600 Junior Chandler, James King, whose case we've covered on the show. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.120 And if you have the opportunity, please go back and 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.840 list to that one. That one it hurts my heart 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:51.679 and we'll have it linked in the bio. And then 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:53.800 who knows, maybe you know something, maybe there's something you 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:55.920 can do to help. And Howard, you haven't even been 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.160 home that long. It was only two thy sixteen when 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.960 you got out. Let's turn to the story at hand. Here. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.160 This was October thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, which was a Sunday. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.559 Amy had just been returned to her mother and had 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.160 Miss Starkey, and I understand that over the weekend you 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.679 had been firm with Amy about something, as parents off 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.160 and are when trying to raise their children, you know 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.040 the right way, and she had a complaint that you 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.600 were quote nasty, And it was at this point that 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.640 Miss Starkey began a series of leading questions resulting in 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.319 some very serious allegations and accusations. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.920 Well, what's really important is that the babysitter was predisposed 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.640 to believing that Howard was mean and would do anything right. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.320 So when Amy said my daddy is nasty, she went 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.600 straight to sexual and said does he put his mess 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.760 inside of you? So at that, given Amy's other characteristics, 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.520 you know, she went with it. And she had been 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.839 inappropriately watching adult TV. So she had seen the Sally 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.440 Jesse Raphael show where they had talked about rape. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.600 So with a head fall of adult content and being 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.880 pressed for an explanation about her meaning of the word 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.680 nasty by Miss Starkey with a suggestive line of questioning 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.760 like does he put his mess inside you? I mean 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.640 that's the first direction she went in talking about Amy's dad. Eventually, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:21.000 under this absurd and obscene pressure, nine year old Amy, 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.520 who was even more impressionable than her contemporaries, allegedly said 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.640 that Howard had quote humped her and quote had s 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.880 e X with her. So the accusation was reported to 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:33.280 Diane and then the police. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.480 Diane and Miss Starkey, I think they noted certain things 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.120 that they can run down into the polls with it 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.119 and they gonna come back running with handcuffs and wants. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.880 I think they you that Auto tried the Little Rascal. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:49.000 They you that as an opportune time to vent her 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:49.840 ang out at me. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.760 Of course, in this incredibly fraud time period, with the 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.320 Little Rascal case looming in the headlines, the Kingston Police 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.720 and Leonora County DSS were primed to jump on a 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.520 case like this one. But it soon should have been 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.000 clear that these accusations of sexual activity on multiple occasions 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.680 were totally false, because when they began to ask Amy 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.160 to retell it happened. She told at least nine different 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.800 stories to DSS nine, and the stories were both inconsistent 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.240 and wildly implausible, if not impossible. For example, she said 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.480 that on one occasion she had been stabbed and that 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.599 a neighbor came and halted the alleged attack. There was 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.640 no evidence, of course, that she had ever been stabbed, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.000 and no neighbor could corroborate this story. There was also 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.760 a claim about him putting hot sauce on his privates 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.040 and the hot sauce smelled like goats, and you know, 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.640 it starts to go into really bizarre and obviously patently 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.720 false territory. This was all supposed to be happening inside, remember, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.160 just a tiny trailer while Howard's wife was there nursing 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.920 their newborn. Just wholly unbelievable. I mean, there was also 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.040 a claim in which she was supposed to have been 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.160 raped while wearing pajamas and underwear. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.000 Which she said that time with the pajamas, she was 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:04.320 wearing her pandies and pajamas, and yet she was vaginally 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.640 penetrated by her father. Well, you can't do that through pajamas. 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.640 Amy was the evidence, and blessed her heart, she is 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.520 the faulty evidence in the case, and it's not her fault. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.600 Remember she was a nine year old child with intellectual 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.160 limitations and didn't know how things worked, including sex, and 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.520 what would happen to her father with these false claims. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.640 And we know Amy immediately recanted after trial. She clearly 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.600 feels guilt about that all these years later, But she 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.760 was a child nine years old and the adults in 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.080 her life, as well as the authorities, should have known better. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.720 And as it turned out, there was one person that 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.600 did so. As his protocol in a case where there's 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.360 a dispute between legal guardians and a miner's interest must 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:51.280 be looked. After Amy was assigned a guardian ed LTAM, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.480 and this person also looked into the allegations. While Amy 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.839 was being interviewed and the claims were being verified. 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.520 The guardian ed Lightem read everything you know. His job 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.920 is to advocate for the best interests of the child 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.600 and he concluded that it was an Amy's best interest 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.959 not to let her testify falsely against her father, and 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.000 he decided that not from the start of his investigation. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.280 He decided at the end of his investigation, he did 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.680 a full investigation. He interviewed people who knew Amy, He 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:26.240 went to her school. He understood Amy's pensions, her limitations, 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.400 her characteristics, the other actors. He read the reports. He 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:36.960 did a full investigation, a fuller investigation, and really tried 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:41.520 to stop the prosecution of Howard and to try to 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.840 stop the substantiation of abuse by the Department of Social Services, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.160 but he was unsuccessful. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.320 So you mentioned an important word here, substantiation. The police 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.080 were waiting for that to move forward with an indictment 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.760 and as unclear if THESS even knew that. So even 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.240 though the guardian a item could see the writing on 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.240 the wall after the initial investigation in interviews, dss inexplictably 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.880 continued down this course towards substantiation, and on December fifth, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.320 nineteen ninety one, they filed the petition in Lenor County 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.000 Juvenile Court alleging abuse and neglect, and there was a 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.120 hearing two weeks later in which Howard was ordered to 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.520 seize contact with Amy and Diana, at which point the 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.640 social workers also decided, despite the total lack of evidence 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.360 to corroborate Amy's claims, that they would go with the 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.280 mantra of that time that credence must be given to 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.720 the child's story, thus substantiating the claim and triggering the 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.480 police to act more aggressively. But something else happens here 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.240 that makes absolutely no fucking sense. It's crazy, and it 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.640 all goes to show that the social workers didn't really 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.560 believe Amy's claims. Now, get this. The social workers agreed 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.720 to a plan in which Howard could potentially regain unsupervised 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.000 visits upon completing some kind of counseling for an unspecified 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.240 amount of time. I mean, am I missing something here? 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.320 You're not missing a thing. And they came to that 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.080 conclusion after they had a team meeting how can you 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.760 substantial the allegations, because if they believed them to be true, 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.200 they never could have given visitation to the person who 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.960 perpetrated those kinds of acts. That said, when we interviewed 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.760 the lead social worker years later, I asked, do you 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.320 sometimes just substantiate so you can get access to the family, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:26.520 in other words, do a deeper investigation? And she said yes, yes, yes, 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:32.040 evidently without any appreciation about what substantiating the allegations would 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.000 lead to, and in fact did lead to in Howard's case. 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.800 The police department then charged because the Department of Social 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:01.800 Services were substantiating, and they were substantiate largely because they 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.920 had to give creence to the child, which is in 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.439 their report, and also because they wanted to figure out 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.520 what was going on with this family, so they had 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.880 to substantiate something to get DSS access to the family, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.399 if that makes sense. Of course, couldn't have happened the 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.000 way she described it, given the size of the trailer 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.920 and where people were sleeping, and that Howard's wife was 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.159 home with a newborn and waking up every hour throughout 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.200 the night to take care of this newborn and had 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.320 a two year old close by. It just didn't happen. 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.760 And the guardian Atenliden, who was overridden by DSS and 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:39.520 Kingston Police Department, he didn't succeed in stopping the train 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.439 that had already headed off the station. 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.760 Right, this is a crime that not only didn't happen, 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.800 you also have that there was no opportunity even for 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.800 Howard to have done this or anyone to have done 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.840 this in the space that they cohabitated. As you just said, 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.800 so Howard turned it to you during this period of 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.840 time time, where were you, were you being held, were 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.000 you out on bond? And what was going on in 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.040 your mind? You were a guy who had no previous 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.680 interaction with the criminal justice system. You were a good 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:11.800 young man, right. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.840 That's right. I was sitting back in that count of jail. 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.720 My lawyer, mister Harvey, he comes in. He started talking 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.920 with me about a plea bargain. He told me said 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.399 things ain't looking good for you. And I learned that 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.000 the plea bargain basically saying that you were guilty, and 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:27.080 that's all I need to hear. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:27.520 Right there. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.000 I said, oh no, I said, no plea bargain for me, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.520 and he got a little hystericause he said, muster dog. 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:35.359 This is one thing that he told me was true. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:36.879 If you don't take the flea bog, you're gonna be 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.720 gone for a long time. That's what he told me. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.000 And then it kind of hit me kind of hard. 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.959 Think about my children here, wife here, how were they 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.280 gonna survive? I begin to think about it. So I 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.920 talked it over with my wife. She pointed at me, 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.680 she said, you tell the truth, just like you've been doing. 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.040 And so that's what helped me make my choice to 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.920 stick with it. I don't regret it. I don't regret it. 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.560 I had to leal with Howard. I got to get 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:04.280 up here more and look at Howard in the mirror. 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.359 If I would had gave them what they wanted to 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.840 taken the pleete boggain, I don't think I'll be sitting 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:11.880 here talk to y'all today. I think he took me out. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:14.639 I think it's easy to understand not being able to 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.560 live with yourself if you had to say publicly not 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:21.000 only something so disgusting, but also so patently untrue. Although 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.719 some people are fine with things like that, I mean, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.400 consider our former president, but Howard is not like that. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.080 So you stuck to your innocence righteously and went to trial. Now, 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.600 as Teresa mentioned earlier, Amy was the only evidence in 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.480 this case, false evidence of course that she immediately recanted 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.800 after trial. But that's all there ever was. And I 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:42.840 want to turn to Teresa here, because when you dove 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:44.960 into this case many years after the wrongful conviction, you 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.640 did what Howard's learned really everybody else should have done 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.760 in the first place, was was to appropriately assess Amy's 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.280 mental state and competency to stay on trial. Now we 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.119 alluded to this earlier, the fact that she had some 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.080 intellectual limitations. Can you tell us what you learned. 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:03.440 Amy has some challenge, a psychological problem, stid then does 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:11.119 now she has some cognitive limitations more suggestible than ninety 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.840 nine percent of the population. So this was a little 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:19.560 girl who at nine probably was much younger in her 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:24.240 affect and her intellectual attainments. There's a real question about 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.159 whether she was competent to stand trial, and I think 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.159 everyone will be interested in learning how they assessed her competence. 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.760 They asked her if she knew her colors, if she 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.760 knew her letters, if she knew a number of things, 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.240 and she answered yes to each of those, without demonstrating 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.639 that she in fact knew her colors knew her letters. 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.760 You could ask a one and a half year old 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.840 yes or no questions and they likely answer yes. 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.600 I mean, this poor girl was just thrust into this 0:20:55.720 --> 0:21:00.760 situation answering questions about these vulgar, terrible ass of which 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.400 she had no knowledge because at most she had heard 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.520 about them from an episode of Sally Jesse, Raphael, her babysitter, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.840 or more likely the prosecutors. She should have just been 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.919 in school, but instead she was in a courtroom walking 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.159 through these inconsistent and implausible statements of lies let's call 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.320 them what they are, that she had made up? So 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.840 how did they make her sound credible to the jury? 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.240 When she testified, she was asked leading questions because she 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.879 was a child. You usually can't ask leading questions or witnesses. 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.280 There's a prohibition, But with a child you can ask 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.359 leading questions if you request it and you're the stay. So, 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:41.400 of course, as you might imagine, the testimony was bare bones, 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.879 but also quite different from the previous tellings of the 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:47.320 story by Amy. 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.200 So the prosecutor was allowed this sort of way of 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.920 leading Amy through a coherent narrative. Meanwhile, I understand the 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.840 DSS reports, which contained all of Amy's interviews. Now those 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:58.120 reports were all with hell. 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.800 We've been talking about the different retellings by Amy, and 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:08.040 the wild inconsistencies among the tellings and the outlandish details, 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.480 So all of that was withheld. Howard didn't know about 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.720 them at the time of trial, and his defense lawyer 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:18.200 didn't know. Now this state new. The prosecutors knew because 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.879 they had access to the DSS records, and certainly the 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.880 DSS social worker who led the investigation knew. Even when 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.359 it's the era of one must give credence to the child, 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.000 there was still one hopes it would have been a 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:35.080 jur or two at least who would say no, no, no, no, 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.080