1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: With the rise of dual income households throughout the eighties 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: and nineties, an unprecedented number of families were relying on 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: near strangers for childcare. Subsequently, a wave of child sex 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: abuse hysteria began, in which any claim at all from 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: a child was granted credence, no matter how outlandish or 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: probably false they were. At this time, Howard Dudley and 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Diane Moore were jointly raising their daughter Amy, but were 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: never married. Eventually, Howard found her a nude sense of faith, 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: met his wife, and had two sons. Even though Howard 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: paid child support and maintained a presence in Amy's life, 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: one can imagine that Howard's new willingness to settle down 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: was not well received by the mother of his first 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: child or her family, including Amy's babysitter, Lydia May Starkey. 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: On October thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, Amy allegedly told miss 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: Starkey that her father was quote nasty, already prime to 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: believe the worst about Howard, and demanding an explanation. Starkey 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: began a series of suggestive questions, and Amy allegedly claimed 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. To look out for Amy's best interest. During 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: the social Services investigation. She was assigned at Guardian ad Ltam, 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: who determined that Amy's story was untrue. Nonetheless, the trend 21 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: demanded that credence be granted to the child's claims, triggering 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: Howard's arrest. The prosecution ignored and hid the Guardian ed 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Lam's recommendation, and even though Amy recanted her allegations immediately 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: after trial, Howard's been nearly twenty five years in prison 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: as a child sex offender. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome 26 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction. I feel a deep sense of 27 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: responsibility to share this story because it's unique in terms 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: of the almost three hundred episodes we've done, but it's 29 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: not unique because it was a common story at the 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: time that it was happening. It's the story of a 31 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: man named Howard Dudley who was convicted of a crime 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: that never happened, and who spent almost three decades incarcerated 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: because of a series of lies, superstitions, hysteria that sort 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: of swept the nation. So before I introduce the other 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: distinguished guest who we have on here, I want to 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: introduce mister Dudley himself, Howard Dudley. Welcome to RAFEL conviction. 37 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: Good morning, excited about being here this morning. 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: Well, listen, I'm excited to have you here. I'm sorry 39 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: you're here because of what you went through with Howard. 40 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: Today is a remarkable woman named Teresa Newman. Teresa is 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: recently retired, but she was a clinical professor of law 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: amereta at Duke Law. So this is a serious person. 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: You don't get that title by not being tough and smart. 44 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: And you also don't get Howard Dudley out of prison 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: without those qualities and characteristics. So Teresa, thank. 46 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: You for being here, Thank you so much for having us. 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: And this story is outrageous. Stories like this have actually 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: kept me up at night. And I mean again, this 49 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: one is this is about as bad as it gets, 50 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: but it isn't unique, and that's why I think it's 51 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: all the more important that we tell it. But Howard, 52 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: before we get into the story itself, let's talk about 53 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: your youth. You grew up in a small town in 54 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: North Carolina. Is that right? 55 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: That's correct, that's right, a little town called Institute. I 56 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: grew up in a home mom and dad and nine siblings. 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: And my dad had quick rules and he enforced the talk, 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: the work they're out of trouble not to go out 59 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: and disperse the family. 60 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: Name. Yeah, I guess with that many kids, you'd have 61 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: to have some strict rules or it'd be pure chaos. 62 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: But it sounds like your parents instilled some good values 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: in you. And I also understand that you played guitar 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: and still do, and eventually you grew up and that 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: a woman named Diane Moore. You had a daughter together 66 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: named Amy. But it appears that you never intend on 67 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: marrying Diane and weren't ready to settle down. 68 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't really a good boyfriend. I ad met to 69 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: that right there. But we worked out between the court 70 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: and myself and Amoy's mother that I could spend time 71 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: with her. She spent weekends with me. We had a 72 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: great relationship and we was on good. 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: Terms, I thought. And while you two tolerated each other 74 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: for the good of your daughter, Diane ended up becoming 75 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 1: infected with HIV and she was very ill for a while. 76 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: So a relative named Lydia may Starkey began shouldering more 77 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: of Diane's into the bargain. But nonetheless, you moved on 78 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: with your life. 79 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: I met my wife and we got married. She would 80 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: accept me as I was, and after marriage we had 81 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: a son named Dennis who's a musician today, and the 82 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: Adrian living a productive life. I would determine to make 83 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 2: a good life for my children, and that was my endeavor. 84 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: I worked, my wife went to college, and her last 85 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: year in school she had a major squote, and so 86 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 2: basically I was the provider for my family. 87 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: So at this time, you were provided for your family, 88 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: living in a trailer while paying child support for Amy, 89 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: who would join you on the weekends and during the 90 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: week her relative, Lydia Mace Darkey would care for her 91 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: as Diane's health continued to deteriorate. 92 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 3: The babysitter she called Howard mean because he had broken 93 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 3: up with Diane Moore, who she later died of age 94 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: she was ill, and then Howard, moving on with life, 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: became born again. Christian got married, had these two kids. 96 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: So one could easily see how some really you know, 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: hard hurt feelings could develop, making it easy for Lydia 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: May to believe horrible things about you, and later on 99 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: maybe even to cajole young Amy into making wild accusations 100 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: that she would later recant. Amy, as I understand, was 101 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: a bit more susceptible to suggestion, as she had some 102 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: intellectual limitations. But even before we get into the specifics 103 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: of your case, I think it's important to mention that 104 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: this time period, the late eighties and early nineties, was 105 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: the absolute height of a wave of child sex abuse hysteria, 106 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: and cases were weeping across the country, one nonsensical case 107 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: after the other, and I think probably the most widely 108 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: known one was the McMartin preschool, but very close by 109 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: to Howard and his family in North Carolina was a 110 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: Little Rascals daycare center, where the accusations were beyond absurd, 111 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean just absolutely outlandish things that a kid might 112 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: conjure up on the spot. Now that's not to say 113 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: that there perhaps weren't some real allegations among the false ones, 114 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: but in that climate, social services, police and eventually juries 115 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: were buying the allegations, credible or not. 116 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I wasn't a lawyer when these cases were 117 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 3: sweeping the nation and frankly internationally, but I remember, just 118 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: like you, Jason, reading it and thinking these were fantasy allegations. 119 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: And people have different theories about what led to this 120 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: period of near hysteria, but I think many believe it 121 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: was a time of two parent families. Both parents were working, 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: children were being taken care of by strangers or near strangers, 123 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: and all it takes is rumor and innuendo that something 124 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: untoured is happening in these places. And the Little Rascals 125 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: is a great example, and that's right here in North Carolina. 126 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: The trial which was against every worker and owner at 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 3: that daycare center. That trial was occurring for the owner 128 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: of the center, just minutes away from where Howard Dudley lived. 129 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: The stories were in the New York Times, were in 130 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 3: the international papers, were in every local newspaper, and in 131 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: that one newborn babies were being tossed to sharks off 132 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: the coast of North Carolina. There were pirate ship allegations. 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 3: Clearly the stories of children. But the other important piece 134 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: of this period of time was that no research had 135 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: really been conducted on whether young children could fabricate such stories. 136 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: So if they told you a quote story, that story 137 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: had to be true. Any listener who is a parent 138 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: today knows that that's a crazy notion. Children make up 139 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: stories all the time. They lived in fantasy. But that 140 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: was that period. Today it is known that children can 141 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: line that it's really important to conduct interviews of children 142 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: in a certain way that the medical evidence that was 143 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: believed to be dispositive abuse at the time. 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: Is not a friend of mine named Gus Gussler. I 145 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: don't know if he ever came across him, but he's 146 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: a criminal defense lawyer for a long time in North 147 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: Carolina and he defended one of these cases. He was 148 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: actually representing a man who was a golf pro whose 149 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: wife operated a day care facility, and just because he 150 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: would go and pick her up from work once in 151 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: a while, he got caught up in it as well. 152 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: And I believe he got convicted because at the time 153 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: it was just like everybody was just believing anything that 154 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: anybody said. And of course these were crimes that never 155 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: even happened. 156 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 3: We represent one of the last surviving multi defendant, multi 157 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 3: children cases from this period, and the man was convicted 158 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty seven and it absolutely nothing happened. But 159 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 3: he was a van driver for a daycare center with 160 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: some cognitively impaired adults on the van as well, and 161 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: two of those adults were boyfriend and girlfriend, and they 162 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 3: were doing as the children said, the married people were 163 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: doing married people things on the bus and that's how 164 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: it started. And it ended up with our client Junior 165 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: Chandler in prison since nineteen eighty seven and we'll be 166 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: there for the rest of his life unless we can 167 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: successfully petition the cord. 168 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: There are still so many people suffering in prison, like 169 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: Junior Chandler, James King, whose case we've covered on the show. 170 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: And if you have the opportunity, please go back and 171 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: list to that one. That one it hurts my heart 172 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: and we'll have it linked in the bio. And then 173 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: who knows, maybe you know something, maybe there's something you 174 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: can do to help. And Howard, you haven't even been 175 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: home that long. It was only two thy sixteen when 176 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: you got out. Let's turn to the story at hand. Here. 177 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: This was October thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, which was a Sunday. 178 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: Amy had just been returned to her mother and had 179 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: Miss Starkey, and I understand that over the weekend you 180 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: had been firm with Amy about something, as parents off 181 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: and are when trying to raise their children, you know 182 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: the right way, and she had a complaint that you 183 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: were quote nasty, And it was at this point that 184 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: Miss Starkey began a series of leading questions resulting in 185 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: some very serious allegations and accusations. 186 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: Well, what's really important is that the babysitter was predisposed 187 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: to believing that Howard was mean and would do anything right. 188 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: So when Amy said my daddy is nasty, she went 189 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: straight to sexual and said does he put his mess 190 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: inside of you? So at that, given Amy's other characteristics, 191 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: you know, she went with it. And she had been 192 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 3: inappropriately watching adult TV. So she had seen the Sally 193 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 3: Jesse Raphael show where they had talked about rape. 194 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: So with a head fall of adult content and being 195 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: pressed for an explanation about her meaning of the word 196 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: nasty by Miss Starkey with a suggestive line of questioning 197 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: like does he put his mess inside you? I mean 198 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: that's the first direction she went in talking about Amy's dad. Eventually, 199 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: under this absurd and obscene pressure, nine year old Amy, 200 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: who was even more impressionable than her contemporaries, allegedly said 201 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: that Howard had quote humped her and quote had s 202 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: e X with her. So the accusation was reported to 203 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Diane and then the police. 204 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: Diane and Miss Starkey, I think they noted certain things 205 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: that they can run down into the polls with it 206 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,119 Speaker 2: and they gonna come back running with handcuffs and wants. 207 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: I think they you that Auto tried the Little Rascal. 208 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: They you that as an opportune time to vent her 209 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: ang out at me. 210 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: Of course, in this incredibly fraud time period, with the 211 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: Little Rascal case looming in the headlines, the Kingston Police 212 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: and Leonora County DSS were primed to jump on a 213 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: case like this one. But it soon should have been 214 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: clear that these accusations of sexual activity on multiple occasions 215 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: were totally false, because when they began to ask Amy 216 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: to retell it happened. She told at least nine different 217 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: stories to DSS nine, and the stories were both inconsistent 218 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: and wildly implausible, if not impossible. For example, she said 219 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: that on one occasion she had been stabbed and that 220 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 1: a neighbor came and halted the alleged attack. There was 221 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: no evidence, of course, that she had ever been stabbed, 222 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: and no neighbor could corroborate this story. There was also 223 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: a claim about him putting hot sauce on his privates 224 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: and the hot sauce smelled like goats, and you know, 225 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: it starts to go into really bizarre and obviously patently 226 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: false territory. This was all supposed to be happening inside, remember, 227 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: just a tiny trailer while Howard's wife was there nursing 228 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: their newborn. Just wholly unbelievable. I mean, there was also 229 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: a claim in which she was supposed to have been 230 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: raped while wearing pajamas and underwear. 231 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: Which she said that time with the pajamas, she was 232 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 3: wearing her pandies and pajamas, and yet she was vaginally 233 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 3: penetrated by her father. Well, you can't do that through pajamas. 234 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: Amy was the evidence, and blessed her heart, she is 235 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 3: the faulty evidence in the case, and it's not her fault. 236 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: Remember she was a nine year old child with intellectual 237 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: limitations and didn't know how things worked, including sex, and 238 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: what would happen to her father with these false claims. 239 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: And we know Amy immediately recanted after trial. She clearly 240 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: feels guilt about that all these years later, But she 241 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: was a child nine years old and the adults in 242 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: her life, as well as the authorities, should have known better. 243 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: And as it turned out, there was one person that 244 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: did so. As his protocol in a case where there's 245 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: a dispute between legal guardians and a miner's interest must 246 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: be looked. After Amy was assigned a guardian ed LTAM, 247 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: and this person also looked into the allegations. While Amy 248 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: was being interviewed and the claims were being verified. 249 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: The guardian ed Lightem read everything you know. His job 250 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: is to advocate for the best interests of the child 251 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: and he concluded that it was an Amy's best interest 252 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 3: not to let her testify falsely against her father, and 253 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: he decided that not from the start of his investigation. 254 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 3: He decided at the end of his investigation, he did 255 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: a full investigation. He interviewed people who knew Amy, He 256 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: went to her school. He understood Amy's pensions, her limitations, 257 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: her characteristics, the other actors. He read the reports. He 258 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: did a full investigation, a fuller investigation, and really tried 259 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: to stop the prosecution of Howard and to try to 260 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: stop the substantiation of abuse by the Department of Social Services, 261 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: but he was unsuccessful. 262 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: So you mentioned an important word here, substantiation. The police 263 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: were waiting for that to move forward with an indictment 264 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: and as unclear if THESS even knew that. So even 265 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: though the guardian a item could see the writing on 266 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: the wall after the initial investigation in interviews, dss inexplictably 267 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: continued down this course towards substantiation, and on December fifth, 268 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, they filed the petition in Lenor County 269 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: Juvenile Court alleging abuse and neglect, and there was a 270 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: hearing two weeks later in which Howard was ordered to 271 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: seize contact with Amy and Diana, at which point the 272 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: social workers also decided, despite the total lack of evidence 273 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: to corroborate Amy's claims, that they would go with the 274 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: mantra of that time that credence must be given to 275 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: the child's story, thus substantiating the claim and triggering the 276 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: police to act more aggressively. But something else happens here 277 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: that makes absolutely no fucking sense. It's crazy, and it 278 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: all goes to show that the social workers didn't really 279 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: believe Amy's claims. Now, get this. The social workers agreed 280 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: to a plan in which Howard could potentially regain unsupervised 281 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: visits upon completing some kind of counseling for an unspecified 282 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: amount of time. I mean, am I missing something here? 283 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: You're not missing a thing. And they came to that 284 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: conclusion after they had a team meeting how can you 285 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: substantial the allegations, because if they believed them to be true, 286 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: they never could have given visitation to the person who 287 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 3: perpetrated those kinds of acts. That said, when we interviewed 288 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: the lead social worker years later, I asked, do you 289 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: sometimes just substantiate so you can get access to the family, 290 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: in other words, do a deeper investigation? And she said yes, yes, yes, 291 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: evidently without any appreciation about what substantiating the allegations would 292 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: lead to, and in fact did lead to in Howard's case. 293 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: The police department then charged because the Department of Social 294 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 3: Services were substantiating, and they were substantiate largely because they 295 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: had to give creence to the child, which is in 296 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 3: their report, and also because they wanted to figure out 297 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 3: what was going on with this family, so they had 298 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 3: to substantiate something to get DSS access to the family, 299 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 3: if that makes sense. Of course, couldn't have happened the 300 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: way she described it, given the size of the trailer 301 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 3: and where people were sleeping, and that Howard's wife was 302 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 3: home with a newborn and waking up every hour throughout 303 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 3: the night to take care of this newborn and had 304 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 3: a two year old close by. It just didn't happen. 305 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: And the guardian Atenliden, who was overridden by DSS and 306 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 3: Kingston Police Department, he didn't succeed in stopping the train 307 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 3: that had already headed off the station. 308 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: Right, this is a crime that not only didn't happen, 309 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: you also have that there was no opportunity even for 310 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: Howard to have done this or anyone to have done 311 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: this in the space that they cohabitated. As you just said, 312 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: so Howard turned it to you during this period of 313 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: time time, where were you, were you being held, were 314 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: you out on bond? And what was going on in 315 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: your mind? You were a guy who had no previous 316 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: interaction with the criminal justice system. You were a good 317 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: young man, right. 318 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: That's right. I was sitting back in that count of jail. 319 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: My lawyer, mister Harvey, he comes in. He started talking 320 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 2: with me about a plea bargain. He told me said 321 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: things ain't looking good for you. And I learned that 322 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: the plea bargain basically saying that you were guilty, and 323 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: that's all I need to hear. 324 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: Right there. 325 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: I said, oh no, I said, no plea bargain for me, 326 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: and he got a little hystericause he said, muster dog. 327 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: This is one thing that he told me was true. 328 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: If you don't take the flea bog, you're gonna be 329 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: gone for a long time. That's what he told me. 330 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: And then it kind of hit me kind of hard. 331 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 2: Think about my children here, wife here, how were they 332 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: gonna survive? I begin to think about it. So I 333 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 2: talked it over with my wife. She pointed at me, 334 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: she said, you tell the truth, just like you've been doing. 335 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: And so that's what helped me make my choice to 336 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: stick with it. I don't regret it. I don't regret it. 337 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: I had to leal with Howard. I got to get 338 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: up here more and look at Howard in the mirror. 339 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 2: If I would had gave them what they wanted to 340 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: taken the pleete boggain, I don't think I'll be sitting 341 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: here talk to y'all today. I think he took me out. 342 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: I think it's easy to understand not being able to 343 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: live with yourself if you had to say publicly not 344 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: only something so disgusting, but also so patently untrue. Although 345 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: some people are fine with things like that, I mean, 346 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: consider our former president, but Howard is not like that. 347 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: So you stuck to your innocence righteously and went to trial. Now, 348 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: as Teresa mentioned earlier, Amy was the only evidence in 349 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: this case, false evidence of course that she immediately recanted 350 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: after trial. But that's all there ever was. And I 351 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: want to turn to Teresa here, because when you dove 352 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: into this case many years after the wrongful conviction, you 353 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: did what Howard's learned really everybody else should have done 354 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: in the first place, was was to appropriately assess Amy's 355 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: mental state and competency to stay on trial. Now we 356 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: alluded to this earlier, the fact that she had some 357 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: intellectual limitations. Can you tell us what you learned. 358 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: Amy has some challenge, a psychological problem, stid then does 359 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 3: now she has some cognitive limitations more suggestible than ninety 360 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: nine percent of the population. So this was a little 361 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: girl who at nine probably was much younger in her 362 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 3: affect and her intellectual attainments. There's a real question about 363 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 3: whether she was competent to stand trial, and I think 364 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 3: everyone will be interested in learning how they assessed her competence. 365 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 3: They asked her if she knew her colors, if she 366 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: knew her letters, if she knew a number of things, 367 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: and she answered yes to each of those, without demonstrating 368 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 3: that she in fact knew her colors knew her letters. 369 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: You could ask a one and a half year old 370 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 3: yes or no questions and they likely answer yes. 371 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this poor girl was just thrust into this 372 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: situation answering questions about these vulgar, terrible ass of which 373 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: she had no knowledge because at most she had heard 374 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: about them from an episode of Sally Jesse, Raphael, her babysitter, 375 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: or more likely the prosecutors. She should have just been 376 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: in school, but instead she was in a courtroom walking 377 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: through these inconsistent and implausible statements of lies let's call 378 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: them what they are, that she had made up? So 379 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: how did they make her sound credible to the jury? 380 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 3: When she testified, she was asked leading questions because she 381 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 3: was a child. You usually can't ask leading questions or witnesses. 382 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: There's a prohibition, But with a child you can ask 383 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: leading questions if you request it and you're the stay. So, 384 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 3: of course, as you might imagine, the testimony was bare bones, 385 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 3: but also quite different from the previous tellings of the 386 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: story by Amy. 387 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: So the prosecutor was allowed this sort of way of 388 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: leading Amy through a coherent narrative. Meanwhile, I understand the 389 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: DSS reports, which contained all of Amy's interviews. Now those 390 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: reports were all with hell. 391 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 3: We've been talking about the different retellings by Amy, and 392 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: the wild inconsistencies among the tellings and the outlandish details, 393 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 3: So all of that was withheld. Howard didn't know about 394 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: them at the time of trial, and his defense lawyer 395 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 3: didn't know. Now this state new. The prosecutors knew because 396 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: they had access to the DSS records, and certainly the 397 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 3: DSS social worker who led the investigation knew. Even when 398 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: it's the era of one must give credence to the child, 399 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: there was still one hopes it would have been a 400 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: jur or two at least who would say no, no, no, no, 401 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 3: that's crazy talk, and maybe would have hung the jury. 402 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: I like to believe that the defense lawyer would have 403 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 3: won to outright acquittal if he had had those documents 404 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 3: and had done even a modicum of investigation of his own. 405 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: And he had not, and this was a guide I'll 406 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: forget who had been practicing law for only about a 407 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: year and had devoted only about thirty hours of this case, 408 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: including the two day trial. He filed no pretrial motions, 409 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: nor conducted any of the investigation, including it to Amy's 410 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: competency or the story she had told. He could have 411 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: also hired an independent medical expert, who knows how helpful 412 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: could have been. 413 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 3: When children are believed to have been physically abused sexually abused, 414 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: child medical evaluation report is completed in this case when 415 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 3: was worn by DSS. I believe it was done three 416 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: weeks later, which is a mistake. But they did three 417 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 3: weeks later, and there was no physical evidence of abuse. Importantly, 418 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 3: at trial, Howard's defense lawyer did not call an independent 419 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: medical expert. He called that doctor, the one who conducted 420 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 3: the child medical evaluation for the state, and he got 421 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 3: that doctor to say, no, there wasn't any physical abuse. 422 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: But that doctor also said, in a lot of cases 423 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 3: of sex abuse, the exam is normal. So that was 424 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 3: completely unhelpful. 425 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: I mean to have the medical examination conducted three weeks later. 426 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: Our bodies are elastic, they heal. Of course, they weren't 427 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: going to find anything three weeks later unless the damage 428 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: was so severe, which I don't even want to imagine, 429 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: and thankfully we don't have to in this case. There 430 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: was no damage even three weeks earlier, so Amy's mother, 431 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: Diane and Lydia made the babysitter also took the stand. Obviously, 432 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: they weren't witnesses to anything, so I'm not sure what 433 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: they had to offer on And Howard, you took the 434 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: stand as well, denying the charges, saying that the comment 435 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: about you being nasty, this all started with you disciplining 436 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: Amy for poor behavior. Your wife also testified about the 437 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: size of your mobile home and how she had never 438 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: heard any screams or anything unusual during Amy's visits, as 439 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: well as how she was up at all hours nursing 440 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: a newborn, which rendered all these claims impossible. 441 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: And one more thing, I heard that a jewis said 442 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: that I was believable and Amy was believable, but they 443 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: said at the end of the day they had to 444 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 2: go with the daughter. 445 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: No, why not go with. 446 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 2: The ether dance? 447 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: Right? I mean, if you have two people telling completely 448 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: different stories, now granted one of them as a nine 449 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: year old child, go with the evidence. 450 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 3: The problem with these cases, particularly during that period of time, 451 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 3: was that people were told they had to believe the children. 452 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 3: His daughter is saying it right, Why would she say 453 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 3: that it has to be true? 454 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: Ultimately, the jury went out. When they came back in, 455 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: did you still have hope that finally the truth would 456 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: come out and you could go back to your normal life. 457 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: When you was an innocent individual. Absolutely, you look for 458 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: them to come back, get this over with, f I 459 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: can go home, go back with my life. As I 460 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: stood that, that's what I was looking to hear. And 461 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: I watched twelve jurors come out and say guilty, guilty, guilty. 462 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 2: I say, I can't believe this is happening. It's ridiculous. 463 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 2: You know what society sometimes saying what people in philm say, 464 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: you were found guilty. I liked to use the term 465 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: I was made guilty, but they had absolutely nothing to 466 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: prove that I was guilty. And inside PRISM, that's a 467 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: terrible case to carry inside the prison because everybody is 468 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 2: talking have their opinion about your case or what they 469 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 2: seen on the news. I slung hard to my relationship 470 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,239 Speaker 2: with God and I met other Christians that was in 471 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: prison God that had made some mistakes, bad choices, and 472 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: we connected and sharing my story talking to them, that's 473 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 2: what helped me to be again to deal with my 474 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 2: situation at hand, and it got a little better from there. 475 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: And people began to believe in me. I never dropped my. 476 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: Relationship with God. 477 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: I kept it for the twenty four years in prison, prayer, 478 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: read my Bible each and every day. That's something I 479 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 2: did every day, repetition. That was my survival course. 480 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you found a way through considering what 481 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: prison in life can be like for someone found or 482 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: actually made guilty of a crime like the one that 483 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: never happened in this case. And it must have eased 484 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: your burden in your mind a bit. When your daughter 485 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: Amy came forward to recant immediately after trial, can you 486 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: tell us about that? Did it surprise you? I knew 487 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: my daughter. 488 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: It didn't surprise me. But what surprised me she did 489 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: it so quickly. I knew my daughter. I knew she 490 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: couldn't live with that because she and I were so close. 491 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: It wouldn't have been so bad. We had a close relationship. 492 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: I was a good day and I loved my daughter, 493 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 2: still love her the day. That's why it affected her 494 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: so bad when she had to live with what she 495 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: had to live with, which was a lot. Right now today, 496 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: she'll tell me right now today that I think I 497 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: owe you an explanation I said, no, you don't owe 498 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: me an explanation. I know I was a good day. 499 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: I wasn't a perfect day. I definitely wasn't a perfect boyfriend. 500 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, you don't get life in 501 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: prison for being a bad boyfriend. Not even in this 502 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: country did Diane ever come around. 503 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 2: Before Diane Amy's mother passed away, she was even trying 504 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: to get me out of prison. We went to court 505 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: and she made a statement. I didn't know Amy wood Lyne. 506 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: I thought she was telling the truth. These are her words. 507 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: So with these two very powerful recantations, plus support from 508 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: family and your church, they hired a lawyer to mount 509 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: your post conviction campaign. 510 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 2: My family hired a seasoned lawyer in Kenston, James Perry. 511 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: We thought that he would do the investigation that never 512 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: occurred previously when we realized that the information that was 513 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: needed to free me. He didn't get it. But he 514 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: did come down to talk to me when I was 515 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: in prison. But his conversation it was only about me 516 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: taking a flea bark and get out of Frism. I 517 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: wasn't about to say I committed a crime against my 518 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: daughter just to get out of film. If I was 519 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: going to do that I would never came to film 520 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: because that door was open for me at the very beginning. 521 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 3: So the reason the earlier lawyers, including mister Perry, failed 522 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 3: is in part because they had a fundamental misunderstanding of 523 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: what you needed to do to get relief in a 524 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 3: recantation case. The recantation the case is when the principal 525 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 3: witness or a material witness lies during the trial and 526 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: then they admitted, like Amy did immediately after the trial, 527 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 3: she was with a different babysitter. That babysitter was reading 528 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 3: a Bible story about truth and Amy started crying and said, 529 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 3: I lied on my daddy. So that gives you an 530 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 3: opportunity to go back into court on a recantation claim. 531 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 3: But what they did was just put Amy on the stand, 532 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 3: and Amy says, okay, I lied. But they don't give 533 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 3: the judge anything else because then the judge has, well, 534 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: she told story a trial and now she's telling story 535 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 3: b How do I decide which one is the truth? 536 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: So when we got it, we said, how can we 537 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: provide the judge the context to understand that Amy's recantation 538 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 3: is true and her trial testimony is false? 539 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: Right? Not only was his trial lawyer wildly ineffective, but 540 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: his seasoned appellat attorney neglected to do what was necessary 541 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: in a recantation case as well, so as I understand it, 542 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: Howard's friend a volunteer who would come into work in 543 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: the prison chapel, a guy named Lewis Alexander May he 544 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: rest in peace. He advocated for Howard with the Duke 545 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: Wrongful Convisions Clinic, and that really put Howard on the 546 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: radar and on the path of freedom. 547 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 3: A really important step along that path, though, was a 548 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 3: series of articles written by a man of a journalist 549 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: named Joseph Neff who's now with the Marshall Project. He 550 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 3: worked for the Raleigh News and Observer and he wrote 551 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 3: a series on Howard's case that really helped us, including 552 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 3: he got an interview with the Guardian at Lightham who 553 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: spoke out of turn. He realized he shouldn't have spoken 554 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 3: to a journalist and called the journalist the next day, 555 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 3: I believe and said, can I say now that that 556 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: was all off record? And the journalist said no, And 557 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 3: so we had what the Guardian and Lightem thought about 558 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 3: the case. We accepted Howard's case in two thousand and eight, 559 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 3: and we investigate fully. 560 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: We had a. 561 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 3: Remarkable expert, a woman named Sally Johnson, an MD psychiatrist, 562 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 3: and she did testing of Howard and Amy and it 563 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: was extremely helpful information. But it did take five years 564 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: to file the motion for appropriate reliefs that collected all 565 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 3: of the evidence. During that time, we were also talking 566 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: to the district attorney, which is what we do in 567 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 3: every case. We try to get the district attorney to 568 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 3: agree with us and join us in seeking relief for 569 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 3: our clients. But it didn't work in that case, actually 570 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 3: lasted through that district attorney and another. We then had 571 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: to go before the judge, Judge Paul Jones, who was 572 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: the last person to deny relief to Howard. We had 573 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: to convince him not to bar us procedurally which is 574 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: a court mechanism, and to allow us to reopen the 575 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 3: case in court, and we did. He allowed us to 576 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: go forward with all of our claims and then he 577 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 3: re accused himself, so we had a different judge. 578 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: So now you Jamie Lao, who our listeners will of 579 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: course remember from the Ronnie Long case, and another great 580 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: lawyer of Spencer Paris, a friend of yours. Therese a 581 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: tremendous trial lawyer who came out of retirement just for 582 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: this case. The three of you prepared for this hearing 583 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. 584 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 3: We had seven claims. The very first claim which I 585 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: was amused when I look back at it this morning. 586 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: The very first claim is Howard Dudley is innocent, and 587 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 3: then we lay out and make just an argument for 588 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: his innocence. You can't win on innocence. There is no 589 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 3: pre standing claim in North Carolina or nearly anywhere. But 590 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: innocence is enough. But if you actually make a claim, 591 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 3: a real claim of it, there's just a corresponding increased 592 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 3: likelihood in the past cases. He looked at of relief, 593 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: so I'm like, we're leading off with claim of innocence. 594 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 3: So but then the other claims were all the context right. 595 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 3: So it was that Amy was tested on suggestibility and 596 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 3: she truly is more suggestible than ninety nine point nine 597 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 3: percent of the general population. And that was done by 598 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 3: doctor Sally Johnson. That was a real forensic evaluation that 599 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 3: Amy has low IQ in the sixty eight range, which 600 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: makes her less able in some ways to understand the 601 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 3: ramifications of what was happening. That it arose in this 602 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: period of mass hysteria, and we explained the context of 603 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: the little Rascal's trial happening essentially next door. We had 604 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 3: three claims, and in effective assistance of counsel, that explained 605 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: everything that the lawyer failed to do, including getting all 606 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 3: the documents from the department's Social services and from Paul Porter. 607 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 3: The Guardian enlightened, so we put all of that together 608 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: and that bolstered Amy's recantation. One amazing thing that happened 609 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 3: at that hearing, though, was that when Amy was on 610 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 3: the stand and it's difficult for her as a nine 611 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 3: year old, as a teenager again and then as a 612 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 3: grown woman, but the judge asked if he could speak 613 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 3: to her directly. 614 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: The judge turned it toward Amy and he said, look 615 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: at me. This ain't got nothing to do with Just 616 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: between me and you. He said, did your daddy do 617 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: anything to you? She said, no, sir, and that was 618 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: all he needed. 619 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: So on March second, twenty sixteen, the Honorable Judge Parsons 620 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: agreed that Amy's recantation was credible, that there was ineffective 621 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: assistance of counsel, and that the prosecution failed to disclose 622 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 1: both the Social Services report as well as the fact 623 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: that the Guardian ad litem had concluded that Amy's claims 624 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: were false. The prosecution would eventually dismiss all charges two 625 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: months later. But what was that moment like when the 626 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: judge vacated your confection and finally ordered you at least 627 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: from prison and. 628 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: We sit there and caught miss Newman held my arm. 629 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: She would look around at my family and would a 630 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 2: smile on and I knew it was going in our favor, 631 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: but I had had so many let down so I 632 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: didn't know what to believe, you know, and so when 633 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: things really like to knock me out. When that judge 634 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 2: turned around and looked at me said most of Della, 635 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: you're going home today, I said to myself, did I 636 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 2: hear what I think I heard? And I didn't tell 637 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: me Nan, I was more fainted. But that was a 638 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: great moment. My family, everybody started to roy in the 639 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 2: court room, and it was just a high moment. 640 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: My favorite story is, because I'm a lawyer and a 641 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 3: rule follower, We're walking out and Howard's wearing his prison 642 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 3: guard and he's just dropping it behind him on the ground, 643 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: and I'm like, we've got to read Howard we have 644 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 3: to return these. He looked at me like I was insane. 645 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 3: I am not worried about returning. 646 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: Close. 647 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 3: We get outside and they're just throngs of his supporters 648 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 3: and reporters and Joe Naffer of the series on News 649 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 3: attended the whole hearing. He was writing more it was 650 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 3: a truly joyous, joyous day. 651 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: It was great. 652 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 2: It was great when I walked out the door. Freedom, 653 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 2: It was freedom. But it hit me that my wife 654 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 2: wasn't there to see this. She worked so hard, My 655 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 2: mama wasn't there to see this. That was a moment 656 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: that called me to break down. They were hard at 657 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 2: this pacificlar moment because they wasn't there. They worked so hard. 658 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 2: One day my wife just fell digated my mama. I 659 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 2: visit her the last time in Rex hospital. We sung together, 660 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: we prayed together, we cried together, and I left that day. 661 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 2: I knew that would be the last time I would 662 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: see her alive. And those emotions just came on me 663 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: all at once when I was walking out, and it 664 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 2: just overtook me. But very good day, you know, a 665 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: very difficult day. 666 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: Bittersweet, yeah, bittersweet. So then in April twenty eighteen, you 667 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: followed the federal civil rights suit against the City of Kinston, 668 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: seeking compensation. They eventually settled in July twenty twenty one. 669 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean nothing they could ever pay 670 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: you with make up for. 671 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 2: What you lost, absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing. 672 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: And then you are granted a pardon of innocence from 673 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: Governor Roy Cooper. So not only did the prosecution dismiss 674 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: the charges, but then you've got it officially recognized, officially. 675 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 2: Yes, I got hanging on my wall. I'd like to 676 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 2: say this right here, Jamie, most of special miss Newman, 677 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: the Duke Law Team. I like to see it like 678 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 2: this right here. 679 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: They saved my life. 680 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 2: They saved my life. I can't put it in no 681 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 2: better words in that right there, all of them. 682 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: Well, we'll be sure to link up to the Duke 683 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: Law School Wrongful Conviction Clinic, but check the link in 684 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: the bio in the episode. And now I'll turn to 685 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: closing arguments. You know, it starts off with me, of course, 686 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: thanking both of you for joining us, Teresa Howard, and 687 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: so now we're going to turn to closing arguments. This 688 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: is the part of the show where I turn my 689 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: microphone off and leave both of yours on and just 690 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: listen to anything else you want to share with me 691 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 1: in our audience. So, Teresa, why don't you go first? 692 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: Then hand the mic off to Howard, and Howard you 693 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: can take us out into the sunset. 694 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 3: Every time Howard and I have an opportunity to talk 695 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 3: about this case, whether it's publicly or in private, I 696 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 3: learn something new about Howard. And what I learned today 697 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 3: is that Howard sees himself as sort of every man 698 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 3: or ordinary man, just a regular person trying to live 699 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 3: his life, when in fact, I and the people who've 700 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 3: gotten to know him through this long journey would say 701 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 3: he's truly extraordinary in that he refused to do what 702 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 3: I think so many of us would do to go 703 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 3: home to be with our families. He refused to take 704 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 3: that early exit with the plea bargain before trial and 705 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: later when it looked like maybe it was going to 706 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 3: be offered through the previous lawyers, and he refused to 707 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 3: do that because he is a man of truly remarkable integrity, 708 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 3: and as he says, I wanted to be able to 709 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 3: look in the mirror and say, you know, I could 710 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 3: not have taken that plea and admitted to doing the 711 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 3: things that I did not do. In that that I 712 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 3: have lived my life in a different way from what 713 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 3: they expect me to say. So, Howard, you're truly extraordinary. 714 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 4: Well on my behalf, I might say that Teresa Jamie Muster, Spencer, 715 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 4: mister Coleman, the Doke Law students like saying that they 716 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 4: have helped to restore my integrity of the law. 717 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: Didn't think they were such thing after my situation as 718 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 2: any lawyer that had a heart, I really didn't think 719 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: that until they restored it. There is some good lawyers 720 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 2: out there. There is some that got a heart. There 721 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 2: is some that want to do the right thing. There 722 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: is some that take their work serious. There is something 723 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: that out there that really really care about what they 724 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: are doing people life. Like I said earlier and I 725 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 2: continue to say this, because they saved my life. 726 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: I was in a. 727 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: Situation that I didn't think I would never get. 728 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 1: Out of it. 729 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 2: I had so many nose I didn't think it was 730 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: such things. Yes, when it come down to lawyers and 731 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: this was the turn, I had no idea. But I 732 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: can never say enough about what they had done on 733 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 2: my behalf, restoring my freedom back and back with my family, 734 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 2: and children, even though they have wrong now, but I hold. 735 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: It all to them. Well. 736 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: Family will family, real family. 737 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 738 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn and Kevin Wardis, 739 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 740 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 741 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 742 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 743 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 744 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 745 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 746 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with 747 00:41:50,840 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one