1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Brainstuff, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: brain Stuff, Lauren Bogobam here. For years now, populists have 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: been popping up all over the globe, from India and 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: Europe to the Philippines in South America, and of course 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: into the United States. Politicians with populist leanings and those 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: who have gone full fledged populist in their quest for 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: power have been making a lot of noise and a 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: good deal of trouble. Think Marine Lapine in France, Victor 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: Orban in Hungary, Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, former Venezuelan 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: President Hugo Chavez, India's Prime Minister Nearndra Modi, and ys 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: by many people's definition, Donald Trump in the United States. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: But what is a populist? What is populism? Answering that 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: is notoriously difficult. A part of the difficulty arises from 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: the fact that populists can come from all part of 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: the political spectrum. There are leftist populists around the world 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: who combine various forms of socialism with their populist message. 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: There are those on the right who push anti immigration 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: and anti lgbt Q plus platforms in their populism. Populism 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: in general refers to appealing to ordinary people as a 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: political ideology or approach. It involves emphasizing the wants, needs, voices, 21 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: and good qualities of the common people, and it usually 22 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: does so by contrasting this idea of the good common 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: people with the bad elite working against them. Best case scenario, 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: a populist leader would be honestly looking at the issues 25 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,919 Speaker 1: that ordinary people face and helping create solutions for them, 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: thus making the will of the people law, and that 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: is what populist leaders tend to promise. Unfortunately, what tends 28 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: to happen, and what political scientists have observed in the 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: aforementioned play is, is these populist leaders bending the definitions 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: of both the common people and the elite in order 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: to gain power within a democratic system, and then undermining 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: the very fabric of that democracy in order to stay 33 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: in power, de emphasizing some of the crucial parts of 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: the democratic process, such as the articulation of varied interests 35 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: and the thoughtful mediation of those interests. It can be 36 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: incredibly effective for the leader and incredibly damaging for the 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: democracy that they're distorting, and for anyone who lives within 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: that democracy who isn't in the group that the leader 39 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: has defined as the common people. So worst case scenario, 40 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: populism redefines the common people as a group with narrow 41 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: interests and then insists that only their will matters. We 42 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: spoke with political scientists Anna Gujmala Bussa, a professor at 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Stanford University and the director of the School Rules Global 44 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: Populisms Project, which published a white paper in March called 45 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: Global Populisms and their Challenges. It addresses the threats of 46 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: populism and identifies several possible solutions. According to the paper, 47 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: populism is growing across the globe because of the failure 48 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: of major political parties to address the thorny issues that 49 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: ordinary people face in today's world, immigration, economic inequality, and globalism, 50 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: just to name a few. This gives populist leaders a 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: sort of foot in the door to claim that not 52 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: only the elite members of those political parties are bad, 53 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: but that the whole system is bad. Populist leaders climbed 54 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: to prominence by dividing society, splitting it into two not 55 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: just separate but opposing factions, the people and the elite. 56 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: A University of Georgia political scientists by the name of cast. 57 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: Mood explained it this way in an article for Vice. 58 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: Quote the key distinction between the people and the elite 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: is not based on class or power, but on morality. 60 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: It is always the pure against the corrupt. But again, 61 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: the people is often an exclusive group. But to quote 62 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: the Stanford paper, populists redefine the people, often by excluding 63 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: vulnerable ethnic or religious minorities, immigrants, and marginalized economic groups. 64 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: The result is majority rule without minority rights. Once in power, 65 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: populist leaders attack not only the rights of individuals who 66 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: don't fit into the defined majority, but the very foundations 67 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: on which the country lies. That includes the papers authors 68 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: wrote quote, the takeover and taming of courts and oversight institutions, 69 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: and new laws that limit the freedom of the media 70 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: and civil society. We've seen this in the United States, 71 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: with Trump calling the press the enemy of the people, 72 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: criticizing judges, resisting congressional oversight, claiming that elections are rigged, 73 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: flouting laws, and claiming that a deep state of bureaucratic 74 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: actors is out to get him to deny the will 75 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: of the people he represents. It happens with other populist 76 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: leaders all over the world. Gamala Busa explained the mindset, saying, 77 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: the opposition is the enemy of the people. Why would 78 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: you listen to them? The media is the swamp. Why 79 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: would you listen to them? Everything is fake, everything is suspect, 80 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: and no one is to be trusted except the populace. 81 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: And that populace, remember, does not include voices of the 82 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: population's minorities or anyone who disagrees with the labeled majority. 83 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Gamala Busa said, this is not about making poor people wealthy. 84 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: This is not about punishing the elite and redistributing wealth. 85 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: There's almost nothing in the populist program that actually makes 86 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: everyday people's lives better. Populists don't do that. They simply don't. 87 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: It's not the people who have suffered the most who 88 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: support populist parties. It's really sort of the people who 89 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: fear dropping further down in societal prestige and economic status. 90 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: Populist leaders often don't spring from the working class roots 91 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: of what's thought of as being the people though. Consider 92 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: Trump is a self professed billionaire real estate investor. Brazilian 93 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: president Shaier Bosonar is a longtime congressman and military leader. 94 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: Francis Lepine is the daughter of a career right wing 95 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: politician the Philippines to Thirte spent decades as a mayor 96 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: and lawyer, and India's Muody came from humble beginnings, but 97 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: he's been in politics for more than forty years. Whatever 98 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: their origins, populist leaders are identifiable by their claim to 99 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: understand the people, by their US versus Them rhetoric, and 100 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: by their assertations that they alone are the answer to 101 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: the people's problems. They often speak in brash common of 102 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: the people talk to. Despite their often highbrow educations, they're 103 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: considered by many to be charismatic, and they damage democracies 104 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: in other not readily apparent ways by striking down or 105 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: radically altering what has become accepted over years of building 106 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: a society, things like healthy debate, respect for opponents, and 107 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: civil discourse. The illusion of telling it like it is 108 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: draws in those looking for a change or not wanting 109 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: to lose their grip on their place in society, but 110 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: the populist leaders popularity is not forever. Populists who rise 111 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: to power, the Stanford Project found often are punished more 112 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: heavily by voters in trying to hang onto their power 113 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: because they don't fulfill the promises they made. However, through 114 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: these tactics of dividing people into good and bad, by 115 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: chipping away at society's institutions, the courts, the media, the legislature, 116 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: and by weakening norms of healthy debate, fair elections, and 117 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: respect for one another, populists can hang on to power 118 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: and even become all powerful. The Stanford paper authors wrote, 119 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: the result is a gradual slide into authoritarianism, each step 120 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: justified by the need to better root out disloyal elements 121 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: and better serve the people read the partisan interests of 122 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: the incumbents. Populism, gamal Abusa said, doesn't help the people 123 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: it purports to serve. In the end, that's just politics. 124 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: She also noted that populism and populist politicians aren't all bad. 125 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: She said, I think populism in opposition of populists who 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: don't enter government, play incredibly powerful roles in sort of 127 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: shaking up the system, and above all, in reminding the 128 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: existing political parties and politicians that they shouldn't be complacent. 129 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: Today's episode it was written by John Donovan and produced 130 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: by Tyler Clang. For more on this and lots of 131 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: other topics. Visit how stuffworks dot com. Green Stuff is 132 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio. Or more podcasts my heart 133 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: Radio visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 134 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.