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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Charles Evans, former Chicago

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Speaker 1: FED president. I'm so pleased to say joining us now, Charles,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. I want to

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Speaker 1: start with really the debate that we've been having on

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Speaker 1: the show this morning, which is is the FED behind

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Speaker 1: the heart curve or ahead of the curve if they

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Speaker 1: cut rates in September.

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Speaker 2: Well, good morning.

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Speaker 3: That that is a great question, and you know, I

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Speaker 3: think the Fed is in a is in an okay

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Speaker 3: place right now. I think that they have spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of their time indicating that they need confidence that

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Speaker 3: the inflation is going to be on a sustainable path

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Speaker 3: to get to two percent inflation, and I think that's

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Speaker 3: a stiff performance. Bar I think back in January they

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Speaker 3: were nervous that so many people thought that many rape

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Speaker 3: cuts were ahead, and then the inflation path that the

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Speaker 3: first quarter was bumpy. But things are they appear to

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Speaker 3: be much better. The last press conference, J. Powell indicated

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Speaker 3: that inflation probably gross was welcome, and you know, everybody's

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Speaker 3: expecting a.

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Speaker 2: Better number this morning.

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Speaker 3: So I think they're in a position where they can

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Speaker 3: respond to the improving inflation data. And you know, the

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Speaker 3: normalization in the labor market and a bit of nervousness

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Speaker 3: with the fact that unemployment has gone up. But I

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Speaker 3: think it's time for them to, you know, really start

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Speaker 3: talking more about how they're going to act and than

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Speaker 3: actually act.

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Speaker 1: You know, Charles, you have the luxury right now of

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Speaker 1: not actually having to represent the Fetcher reserve, and you

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Speaker 1: could talk about what your impression is of market positioning.

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Speaker 1: So let's go there. The fact that the market has

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Speaker 1: pretty much full confidence that the FED is going to

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Speaker 1: cut at least three times, probably four times this year,

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Speaker 1: one hundred basis points of rate. Because we were speaking

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Speaker 1: earlier with Justin dear Cole, who basically was saying, why

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Speaker 1: there is no sign that they should be cutting rates

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Speaker 1: given the fact that the economy still is strong and

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Speaker 1: the labor market hasn't turned over, what's the argument to

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Speaker 1: go now, given that we're not seeing a negative print

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Speaker 1: on a job list, on jobs creations.

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Speaker 3: Well, the funds rates at a restrictive rate of five

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Speaker 3: point three percent. They set that in July of last year,

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Speaker 3: and inflation has come down, so by its real measure,

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Speaker 3: it's only gotten tighter since they took those actions. Inflation

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Speaker 3: has come down If you look at a bunch of

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Speaker 3: benchmark policy rules that the FED looks at, they don't

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Speaker 3: follow them necessarily. I mean, they certainly don't follow them

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Speaker 3: in lockstep, but they're a guide as to where a

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Speaker 3: policy likely would.

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Speaker 2: Be headed, and they are far south of where we

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Speaker 2: are right now. I think I saw something where John.

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Speaker 3: Taylor said that his rule says that the FED should

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Speaker 3: be about four percent. That's quite a long ways. J.

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Speaker 3: Powell has said that the labor market is normalizing, and

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Speaker 3: they seem to have more confidence that the labor market

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Speaker 3: is only normalizing and not doing worse than that. Even

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Speaker 3: though the unemployment rate has gone up, it's four point

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Speaker 3: three percent now. Maybe the most recent increase was for

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Speaker 3: some positive factors like increases in labor force, but it

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Speaker 3: is increased by substantially deployment rate. Usually it does. It

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Speaker 3: either goes up or it goes down, and when it's

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Speaker 3: going up, it usually keeps going up. And so it

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Speaker 3: would be quite sensible from a risk management standpoint to

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Speaker 3: sort of take an initial action and step down somewhat

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Speaker 3: from the restrictive level of five point three percent.

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Speaker 4: Along with what they should be doing, there's also a

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Speaker 4: matter of what they should be saying, and at least

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Speaker 4: from the more hawkish members. Bowman Boston kind of pushing

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Speaker 4: back saying, we need more evidence. Charles, you take this

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Speaker 4: view that your fellow peers that they aren't guiding well

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Speaker 4: at this moment. What would it look to be guiding better?

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Speaker 4: What would you want to hear from the FOMC at

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Speaker 4: this moment?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think so the FED is really relied on

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Speaker 3: this rhetoric that they're not about to cut rates until

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Speaker 3: they have confidence, confidence that inflation is going to come down,

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Speaker 3: come down sustainably, come down sustainably to two percent.

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Speaker 2: The FED doesn't have a lot of.

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Speaker 3: Experience with maintaining sustainable two percent inflation. We kept inflation

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Speaker 3: under two percent at one of three quarters for a

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Speaker 3: number of years. If that's the definition of sustainable, then

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Speaker 3: I can understand why they need the restrictive stance of policy.

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Speaker 2: In order to be confident.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think that's what they really mean, or

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Speaker 3: they should mean. And I think that the you know,

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Speaker 3: the increase in the unemployment rate has got to make

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Speaker 3: you a little bit nervous at five point three percent.

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Speaker 3: The FED doesn't have a lot of history of being

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Speaker 3: able to they don't have any history of being able

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Speaker 3: to cut the funds rate at a measured pace in

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Speaker 3: these twenty five basis point increments on a quarterly.

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Speaker 2: Pace that the SEPs have.

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Speaker 3: What you have more likely to peak funds rate like

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Speaker 3: this is January two thousand and one, where all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden they realized they needed to be nimble and

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Speaker 3: cut by one hundred basis points within two weeks. In

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Speaker 3: January two thousand and eight, where we cut by one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty five basis points in the course of

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Speaker 3: two weeks as well. And so I think it's just

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Speaker 3: risk management that you would want to step off of

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Speaker 3: this really quite restrictive five point three percent stance and

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Speaker 3: as nimbly as possible communicate that this is just sort

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Speaker 3: of a readjustment and you've still got your eyes on

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Speaker 3: getting inflation down. It's just you don't need as much

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Speaker 3: restrictiveness as they have in place now.

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Speaker 4: Well, one of the kind of criticisms that's lobbed at

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Speaker 4: the current FOMC is this idea of recency bias that

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Speaker 4: they were behind when it came to try and combat

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Speaker 4: inflation on the way up. So that sort of scars

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Speaker 4: from that moment means that they don't cut as soon. Charles,

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Speaker 4: you've been in the room where these decisions have being made.

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Speaker 4: Do you think there's any credence to that argument.

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Speaker 3: I think that, you know, one part people uphold and saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, you need to be humble. If it needs

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Speaker 3: to be humble, there's a lot of uncertainty out there.

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Speaker 3: I think part of humility is being embarrassed when things

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Speaker 3: didn't go the way that you thought they did. And

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Speaker 3: so when inflation went up to seven percent on the PCE,

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Speaker 3: and I was part of this and the committee, and

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Speaker 3: I was saying, this looks like it's transitory. It's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's not going to last. It's not you know, it

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Speaker 3: was persistent, it was very persistent, but it has come down.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of come down without unemployment going up. The

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Speaker 3: playbook normally would have been, you you really need a

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Speaker 3: downturn in order to get inflation down from seven percent.

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Speaker 3: We'ren't two and a half percent on the PCE core PCE.

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Speaker 3: That's that's remarkable, and it's because of an unwinding of

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Speaker 3: the supply factors. And so I think that it is

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Speaker 3: difficult to look.

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Speaker 2: Past the fact that they I think they had their

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Speaker 2: eyes on the ball. I think J.

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Speaker 3: Powell and increasing the punts right very quickly in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two got ahead of the curve. Certainly got on

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Speaker 3: top of the curve better than the other for in

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Speaker 3: central banks. But it's hard to give up on this

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Speaker 3: idea that you let inflation get away from you in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, start it.

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Speaker 3: It just got to get it down to two point zero,

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Speaker 3: and it's got to be sustainable. I think that's very aggressive,

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Speaker 3: but that seems to be what they're thinking about. I'm

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Speaker 3: not in the room with them, and I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: understand from their communications what they really mean by the

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Speaker 3: sustainable two percent, and I think they could use some

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Speaker 3: clarifying on that.

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Speaker 1: Charles Evans, former Chicago FED president, Thank you