1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Hello, and I'm Tracy Wilson. Uh, 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: and today's subject has been requested by multiple listeners, especially 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: when we first came on the podcast. We came on 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: just after kind of the hundred anniversary of the event 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, and so it had been covered 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: by a number of papers and had kind of been 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: in people's minds a little bit more. It's actually been 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: on my list for almost since the beginning, and we 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: haven't had an X Murderer episode in a little while, 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: so we're do I suppose, as do as one can 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: be for such things. Uh, this one has some haunting 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: mythology around it. It remains an unsolved case, so it's 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: good for the Halloween season, and it's probably no surprise 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: based on the fact that I've already said this is 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: an X Murderer episode. But just to be safe, here's 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: the warning. This is some graphic talk of some pretty 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: brutal murders and particularly the deaths of children, which I 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: know can be really difficult for some people to hear. 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: So if you are sensitive to violent subjects of this nature, 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: or if you listen with younger history buffs. This is 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: maybe one to proceed with caution or to pre screen. 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: For example, I can already tell you my best friend 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: is not going to partake of this one. She and 25 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: I were talking about it while I was researching uh 26 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: and as a parent for her, it's just too rough 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: to listen to this kind of stuff. And the story 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: is incredibly tragic, and even I mean, I'm I'm often 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: quite open that I'm not really a kids person. Um, 30 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: it took me a long time to research because I 31 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: would find that I just had to get up and 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: walk away for a while, because it's just it's brutal, 33 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: and it's hard to think about somebody doing the things 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: that this person or persons did. So we are talking 35 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: about the Valiska As murders, and before we get into 36 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: the details of the actual event, I will let Tracy 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: set the scene a little bit about the town of Vliska, Iowa. Pliska, Iowa. 38 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: This took place in nineteen twelve. Fliska is in Montgomery 39 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: County and it's only about four square kilometers in size. 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: They're not not really big. Omaha, Nebraska and Des Moines, 41 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Iowa are the nearest large metro areas, and Valiska is 42 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: roughly in between them and a little bit south. Yeah, 43 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: it's a little closer to one side than the other. 44 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: But for the purposes of this in between and in 45 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, this was a town that was 46 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: on a growth trajectory. It was kind of rural, but 47 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: there was a budding business community. The train depot was 48 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: very busy. They had a lot of trains coming and going, 49 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: and visitors and business people, and it was a close 50 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: knit community. Josiah B. Moore, who was the father of 51 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: the family at the center of this whole unsettling crime, 52 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: was forty three and nineteen twelve. He's sometimes referred to 53 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: as j. B. And he had lived in Valiska for 54 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: thirteen years when he died, and was a respected businessman. 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: He had married Sarah Montgomery on December six, eighteen ninety nine, 56 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: and Sarah had been born in Illinois in eighteen seventy three, 57 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: and she moved to Iowa n eighteen ninety four when 58 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: the rest of her family moved there. She was thirty 59 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: nine at the time of the murders. The Morris had 60 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: four children. Herman was eleven and was also really close 61 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: to his father Catherine was their second child and she 62 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: was aged ten at the time of the attack. There 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,839 Speaker 1: were also two younger brothers, Boyd who was seven and 64 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: Paul who was five, and there are two other children 65 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: that were victims in this case. So on the morning 66 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: of June nine of nineteen twelve, sisters Lena who was 67 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: twelve and Ainah who was eight Stillinger uh They were 68 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: the daughters of Joseph and Sarah Stillinger attended Sunday services 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: at the Presbyterian Church and the girls were intending to 70 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: visit with their grandmother for the day after church had 71 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: concluded and then The plan for the rest of the 72 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: day was that the girls would then go back to 73 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: church to attend special Children's Day activities the evening before 74 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: returning to their grandmother's house to spend the night. But 75 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: the evening's plans changed when Katherine Moore invited her two 76 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: friends to spend the night at the Moor House after 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: the children's Day activities. Jamie Moore called still at the 78 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: Stillinger home. On the phone, he left a message with 79 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: Lena and Anah's older sister Blanche to pass along to 80 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: their parents that they would be spending the evening with them. 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: So you know, one of those parenting heads up calls, 82 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: your kids are gonna stay over here. If this was 83 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: in part because the girls seemed as kind of afraid 84 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: to walk back to their grandmother's house alone in the dark. Yeah, 85 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: The children's day program, led by Sarah Moore, began at 86 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: eight pm, so this was an evening thing. It would 87 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: have been quite dark when they concluded at mine thirty pm, 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: and once the festivities were all wrapped up, the entire 89 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: More family and the two young Stillinger sisters walked back 90 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: to the More home and arrived there is estimated somewhere 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: between and ten pm. On the morning of June two, 92 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: the Moor's next door neighbor, Mary Peckham, noticed that the 93 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: house was unusually quiet. She hadn't seen any of the 94 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: family come outside or start their normal morning chores, so 95 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: sometimes shortly after seven am, Mrs Peckham walked over to 96 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: the Moor house and knocked on the door. She got 97 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: no response, and so she tried the door and found 98 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: it locked. And this is one of those areas that 99 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: there is some conflicting information in various records, so many 100 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: will say this was actually pretty unusual for the door 101 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: to have been locked. Uh. The habitual locking of doors 102 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: at night was not really particularly common practice at this 103 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: time in Valisca or in fact many other places you know, 104 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, there just wasn't that sort 105 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: of level of uh lockdown at the end of the night. 106 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: Mrs Peckham, who was troubled and also wanted to help 107 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: let the Moore's chickens out as the family would normally 108 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: have done themselves in the morning, and then she also 109 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: telephoned Ross Moore, who was Josiah's brother, And when Rossmore 110 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: arrived at the home of his brother's family, he shouted 111 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: and he knocked. He attempted to peer into the house 112 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: through the windows, but they were covered and he got 113 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: neither reaction nor information like he couldn't there was nothing. 114 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: So eventually he went through his keys until he found 115 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: the one that unlocked the door. Like he had a 116 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: copy of their key, but it took him a little 117 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: while to sort out which one it was. Mary Peckham 118 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: was there with Rosmore, but she didn't venture past the 119 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: porch and into the house. The surviving Moore brother didn't 120 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: go past the second room of the house. He opened 121 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: the door to the bedroom off the parlor and he 122 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: immediately saw the bodies of two children on the bed, 123 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: as well as an enormous amount of blood. He went 124 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: back to the porch and told Mary Peckham to call 125 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: the police. Yeah, and this is a very small, i 126 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: mean by today's standards home. So the bottom floor was 127 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: only three rooms. It was like the parlor of the 128 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: front room, the small bedroom, and a kitchen. So after 129 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: they raised an alert, city Marshall Hank Horton responded. He 130 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: quickly arrived on the scene and his investigation of the 131 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: house revealed that in addition to the two bodies Rossmore 132 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: had seen the young Stillinger sisters, there were six more 133 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: bodies upstairs. The entire More family and their guests had 134 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: been killed in their beds. It was about nine in 135 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: the morning when the county coroner finally got there and 136 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: took a look at the situation. He later reviewed his 137 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: findings with the sheriff and the marshal and then he 138 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: called a coroner's jury to the home. So once words 139 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: spread of what had happened, uh in a small community, 140 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: these things do spread rather quickly. Many townspeople made their 141 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: way to the scene, and this ended up being a 142 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: real problem. We've talked about similar things happening before with 143 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: crime scene, So these people were all there, they were 144 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: very interested, and so keeping the crime scene intact became 145 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: something of an impossibility. There were accounts of dozens of 146 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: people at a time walking through the house kind of 147 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: with the you know, morbid curiosity, trying to catch a 148 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: glimpse of the bodies or see what had happened. Some 149 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: reports even put it at close to a hundred people 150 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: at one point that we're all in the house, which 151 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: again was not that large a structure, so you can 152 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: imagine like keeping evidence intact was completely out the window 153 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: at that point. Irritated by these looky loose yes, eventually 154 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: the Valiska National Guard had to come and clear the 155 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: area and keep onlookers out of the house. By that time, 156 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: several hours had passed and a lot of the evidence 157 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: was damaged or compromised, which just infuriates me. I want 158 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: to take all the looky lose stern a stern lecture 159 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: about how not to be terrible. Yeah, and I mean 160 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: I have read some uh there was I forget which 161 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: account it was that I was reading where they were 162 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: kind of pointing out like, yes, this was terrible, But 163 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: even so, there's maybe wouldn't have been that much more 164 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: evidence that was really garnered in the investigation. Um, but 165 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: we don't know. So the coroner's jury did not finish 166 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: their investigation of the home until after ten PM, and 167 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: it was at that point that the undertaker was given 168 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: clearance to remove the bodies. UH. Those were taken to 169 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: a local fire station which was being used as kind 170 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: of a makeshift morgue because it was so many people 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: at once uh and the undertakers did not finish moving 172 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: the victims until roughly two am. So before we get 173 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: into kind of the grizzly stuff, do you want to 174 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: have a quick word from a sponsor so we don't 175 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: interrupt all of this yuckness with an ad. Let's do, 176 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: and now we will jump back to you discussing the 177 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: horrific events at Veliska. Despite the herd of looky loose 178 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: who had passed through the crime scene, there were some 179 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: solid facts that they were able to glean about these murders. Yes, 180 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: so the doors to the house, all of the doors 181 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: were locked, and as we mentioned earlier, many people believed 182 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: that this was not a normal state of affairs. The 183 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: curtains and every room of the house had been closed, 184 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: and in the case of two windows that had no curtains, 185 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: Mrs Moore's clothing had been used to cover them. Uh, 186 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: and I left it out of these notes, but her 187 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: clothing had also been used to cover all of the 188 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: mirrors in the house. Well that now I'm scared. Don't 189 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: be scared. I don't. I don't mean to laugh at 190 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: his tragic and creepy but I don't want Tracy to 191 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: be scared. No, genuinely. And you said that I had 192 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: a shutter. Sorry, So to get more serious, all eight 193 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: of these victims have been bludgeoned, apparently in their sleep 194 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: with an ax, and each victim's head had been covered 195 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: with bed linens or articles of clothing after their skulls 196 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: had been crushed. Based on the medical examination of the bodies, 197 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: it's believed that the murders took place shortly somewhere between 198 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: shortly after midnight and three am, so it's kind of 199 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: a three hour window. In the two rooms where Josiah 200 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: and Sarah Moore and Lena and ailis Aina Stillinger had 201 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: been killed, a scene lamps were found at the ends 202 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: of the beds with their chimneys removed and their wicks 203 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: turned back, as though the killer had wanted to dim 204 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: the lights. The murder weapon had ben Josiah Moore's. It 205 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: was found in the room with Lena and Aina, and 206 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: the ceilings in several of the rooms had been hit 207 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: during the killer's upswing as he raised the axe. On 208 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: the kitchen table, there was a plate of food and 209 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: a pan of water, and the water had blood in it. 210 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: The downstairs bedroom where the still injured girls were slain, 211 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: contained a number of clues and sort of odd aspects. 212 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: Uh Aina was sleeping on the portion of the bed 213 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: closest to the wall when she was killed, and a 214 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: coat had been used to cover her face afterwards. Uh 215 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: Lena was situated part way down the bed. This led 216 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: to some speculation that she may have been struck and 217 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: then shifted or wiggled down the bed a little bit. 218 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: Initially before she died, she was wearing no undergarments and 219 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: her nightgown had been shifted upward. There was blood on 220 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: the inside of one of her knees and injuries to 221 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: one arm, which appeared to be defensive, as though she 222 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: had tried to protect herself against the attacker. She's the 223 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: only one that exhibited any sort of defensive injury. There 224 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: was a two pounds slab of bacon on the floor, 225 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: wrapped in what was either a rag or a dish towel, 226 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: and there was a nearly identical slab of bacon in 227 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: the kitchen ice box. And additionally, there was part of 228 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: a key chain on the floor. And I know what 229 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: some of you people are probably thinking based on a 230 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: couple of these details, and I promise you we are 231 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: coming back to them now. We will get to sort 232 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: of the coroner's inquest the day after the Grizzly discovery, 233 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: So on June eleven, the coroner's jury began their official 234 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: inquest into the murders, and they eventually called fourteen witnesses 235 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: for testimony. So their first witness was Mary Peckham, who 236 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, was the first woman, the neighbor that discovered 237 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: that there was something not quite right. And she's stated 238 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: that the last time she saw the family was when 239 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: they were leaving for the children's day activities at the 240 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: church on the evening of the ninth. She was already 241 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: in bed when the family returned home, and she said 242 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: that she didn't hear any noises during the night. She 243 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: related how she came to be curious about the family's 244 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: whereabouts in the morning because of the unusual stillness of 245 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: the house uh and that she had seen Mr Moore's employee, 246 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: Ed Selly arrive and head to the barn to tend 247 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: the horses. Not long after she contacted Ross Moore. The 248 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: second witness was Ed Selly, and as we just said, 249 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: he was an employee at Javy Moore's store, and his 250 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: testimony indicated that he had opened the store as normal 251 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: the morning of the discovery before being contacted by Ross 252 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: Moore about the suspicious situation. After speaking with the victim's 253 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: sister in law, Jesse Moore, Selly contacted the Moore's parents 254 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: and Sarah's parents to see if the family had gone 255 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: to visit any of them. So at that point they 256 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: were trying to figure out where they were, not realizing 257 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: they were in the house. He was then contacted by 258 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: Mrs Peckham about the moors livestock, so he left the 259 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: store to attend to the horses and then went back 260 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: to work. Not long after, Mrs Peckham called again, this 261 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: time to tell him to get the marshal and come 262 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: back to the house and Selly's testimony, uh contradicts Mary 263 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: Peckham's just a little bit, and it's not really anything 264 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: terribly important. I just wanted to point it out. He 265 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: indicated that he had joined Mrs Peckham and Ross Moore 266 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: in entering the house, whereas Mrs Peckham indicated that she 267 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: had never gone past the porch. After the Marshal had 268 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: a preliminary look at the scene, Selly indicated that the 269 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: house was blocked and that he went to the store 270 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: to contact business associates about the situation. Yeah, he wanted 271 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: to let the people that they had business dealings with 272 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: know that uh, Mr Moore had been killed and that 273 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: they were gonna have to make some arrangements. Selly was 274 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: asked if J. B. Moore had any enemies he knew of, 275 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: and he indicated that he had told him that his 276 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: brother in law, Sam Moyer had it in for him. 277 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: The third witness was Dr J. Clark Cooper. Cooper was 278 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: the first physician on the scene after the bodies were discovered. 279 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: Cooper described his first access to the bodies, first encountering 280 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: the Stillinger girls, who he didn't recognize. He also mentioned 281 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: the lamps without their chimneys. Cooper indicated that he didn't 282 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: touch the bodies on site. He sort of performed just 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: a visual assessment at that point. Yeah, he didn't do 284 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: uh any real hands on examination. His statement also included 285 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: that estimated time of death that we talked about, and 286 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: that was based on his observation of the blood and 287 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: brain matter on the scene and the level of dryness 288 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: and congealment it had achieved. Uh. He was also the 289 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: one that introduced the detail that the faces he believed 290 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: had been covered after the bludgeoning, and this was based 291 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: on the fact that none of the covering fabris were 292 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: stuck to the wounds, They had just kind of been 293 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: draped over afterwards, and none of those fabrics or articles 294 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: of clothing had any holes or damage of any kind 295 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: other than normal wear and tear. Witness for was Jesse Moore, 296 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: who was Rossmore's wife. Jesse spoke with Mrs Peckham when 297 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: she first called for Ross and her statement echoed ed 298 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: Sally's regarding what their conversations were like. She also mentioned 299 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: that she later entered Josiah's and Sarah's home to retrieve 300 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: photographs of the family for the local paper, and she 301 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: didn't know of any possible enemies that the family might 302 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: have had. Yeah, there are some accounts that suggests that 303 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: she had gone in and kind of like posed for pictures, 304 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: but those seem like embellishments. She did go in, but 305 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: she was trying to get pictures from the household for 306 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: the press um so that they could be used in 307 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: news stories. Witness number five was Dr F. S. Williams, 308 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: And whereas Dr Cooper that we mentioned just a few 309 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: moments ago had only done a visual inspection on the 310 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: bodies at the crime scene, Dr Williams was the one 311 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: that actually examined the bodies. His testimony described the crushed 312 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: heads of each victim and their positions in their beds uh. 313 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: And he was the one to introduced the idea that 314 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: Lena Stillinger had squirmed on the bed after having been struck. 315 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: Some people have theorized over the years that Lena had 316 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted, but Dr williams testimony runs really counter 317 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: to that. He indicated that he had investigated the possibility 318 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: of a rape, but he didn't find any evidence of 319 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: that kind of violation. Yeah, she was the one we mentioned. 320 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: She didn't have any undergarments on, and that her night 321 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: dress had been shifted up. She may have been the 322 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: object of some um, you know, visual stimulation for the killer, 323 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: but her body was not in any way um molested 324 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: to the best of this doctor's knowledge. Uh. Witness number 325 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: six was Edward Landers, and Landers was a neighbor. He 326 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: was actually the son of a neighbor. He was staying 327 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: a few houses down from the moors at his mother's 328 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: house for the summer, and he stated that he had 329 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: gone to bed shortly after nine pm on the night 330 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: of the murders, but that he had heard a noise 331 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: during the night that to him at the time sounded 332 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: like people hooting to one another outdoors. And he was 333 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: kind of pressed by the examiners over what time this 334 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: might have been, and he guessed it was probably around 335 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: eleven p m. But he wasn't certain. Uh. And after 336 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: the news of the murders broke the next morning, he 337 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: began to wonder if the noise that he had heard 338 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: had not been people hooting, but in fact a woman moaning. 339 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: The seventh witness was rossmore so beside his brother, and 340 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: he relayed the events of the morning of the tenth 341 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: and how he had come to discover the bodies of 342 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: the two styliner girls before exiting the home. He mentioned 343 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: that before opened the opening the bedroom door and making 344 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: the discovery, nothing in the home seemed like it was 345 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: out of place, and he also couldn't offer any information 346 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: about possible enemies that the family may have had. Witness 347 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: number eight was Fenwick More and this was another More brother. 348 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: There were several brothers in the mix here. His testimony 349 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: was not particularly illuminating. He indicated that he really didn't 350 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: know anything about his brother's business or if he had 351 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: any enemies, and he was dismissed from the stand pretty quickly. 352 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: The ninth witness was Marshall Hank Horton, and the Marshall's 353 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: testimony was really brief. He basically said he had been 354 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: contacted by Seally to go into the More home. He 355 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: corroborated entering the house with Sally and then again with 356 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: the doctors. Witness number ten was Levin Gilder and this 357 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: was Josiah's nephew, but he also did not have a 358 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: whole lot of information to impart. He had briefly been 359 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: considered a suspect because he had some kind of shady 360 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: uh happenings in his background. His record was not entirely clean, 361 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: but he was cleared pretty early on. Witness eleven was 362 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: another More brother, Harry More, and he also had really 363 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: nothing new to add in the proceedings. Like Finwick, his 364 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: other brother, he had neither knowledge of Jav's business nor 365 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: of any post well ill intentions against him. Witness twelve 366 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: was Blanche Stillinger, and remember this was Lena and Ainah's 367 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: older sister. She was the one that had spoken with 368 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: Jsiah over the phone about the girls sleeping over at 369 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: the Moorhouse, and she was the one that kind of said, yeah, 370 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that will be fine. I will tell my parents. 371 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: And the thirteenth witness was Joseph Stillinger, so Lena and 372 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: i Dinah's father. He also didn't know of anyone who 373 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: might commit such a crime, and he indicated that his 374 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: wife had phoned the Moors several times in the morning, 375 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: uh the morning that the bodies were found, because she 376 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: had expected the girls to be back before school time. Yeah, 377 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: this had happened on a Sunday night into the Monday 378 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: morning hours, and so she thought the kids were going 379 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: to come home and get ready for school, but they didn't, 380 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: so they were trying to contact them and getting no answer. 381 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: The Laps witness was Charles Moore. This is yet another 382 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: more brother. Charles testified to the coroner's jury that he 383 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: knew Josiah kept an AX, but when he was questioned, 384 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: he couldn't say with certainty that the murder up and 385 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: was the one that Josiah owned. He just wasn't sure. H. 386 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: He also indicated that it was in fact his brother's 387 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: habit to lock the house from the inside at night. Um. 388 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: One thing that always kind of rings odd to me 389 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: and is not really discussed all that much in a 390 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: lot of these is that the whole house was locked, 391 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: but somehow the killer or killers got out. So that's 392 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: always stayed a little bit of a mystery. Whether they 393 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: had a key or not is unclear. Yeah. Well, and 394 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: then that gets into me super wondering what lock technology 395 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: was like at the time, Like now we have door 396 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: knoblocks that you just looted the thing and then you 397 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: go out. Well, and there was also you know, uh, 398 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: skeleton keys that could open multiple doors were a little 399 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: more common still than uh, you know, it just wasn't 400 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: quite the same as what we're dealing with today, So, 401 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: and that may be one of the reasons that it's 402 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: not really talked about that much. It's not that insane 403 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: a thing. It's not like, uh, even in some of 404 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: the and I'll talk about them briefly at the end, 405 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: but even in like some of the sort of supernatural 406 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: investigations of it, it doesn't really seem to come up 407 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: as like a weird thing, like an entity locked all 408 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: the doors. Uh doors are just locked. They don't really 409 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't get embellished a whole lot. But before we 410 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: start talking about suspects and what may have driven someone 411 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: to do this, let's have another quick word from a sponsor. 412 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: Will take a break from all of this sort of 413 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: dark material for just a moment, so to return to 414 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: this horrifying subject. There were many early leads in this 415 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: case and really no shortage of suspects, but nothing ever 416 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: panned out, and this horrific crime is still unsolved. It's 417 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: not possible in the scope of a podcast episode to 418 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: cover every single suspect, but we're going to talk about 419 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: the more high profile ones. Yeah, this really sort of 420 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: turned this town on its head, and a lot of 421 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: people characterize it as basically making a place where people 422 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: would invite a stranger into their home for a meal 423 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: and you know, be very open and very friendly, into 424 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: a place where suddenly everyone was suspicious of everyone else, 425 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: and you know, sort of fear driven suspicion kind of 426 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: led their behavior beyond that and as a consequence, a 427 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: lot of different people were accused of participating in this crime, 428 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: but one of the primary suspects that comes up in 429 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: almost any discussion of this case is Frank F. Jones, 430 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: and he was an Iowa State senator. He had been 431 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: Josiah Moore's boss for many years, but in nineteen eight 432 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 1: More had struck out on his own, opening a farming 433 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: implement company, and he took several of their lucrative business 434 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: partners with him, including the John Deere company, So Jones 435 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,239 Speaker 1: was a little i rate with him from that point on. 436 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: There were also rumors that Josiah had had an affair 437 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: with jones daughter in law, So Frank Jones and his son, 438 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: so the husband of this daughter in law, we're even 439 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: accused quite publicly by a detective agency of having hired 440 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: a killer named William Mansfield to take out the More family, 441 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: and William Mansfield was arrested the murders in nineteen sixteen, 442 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: four years after they had taken place. According to Detective 443 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: James Newton Wilkerson, who had been the one that had 444 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: leveled those accusations against the Joneses uh, he asserted that 445 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: Mansfield was in fact a serial killer and that he 446 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: also had a cocaine habit. Mansfield was also linked via 447 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: Wilkerson's research, to other brutal murders, including those of his 448 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: own wife, child, and his wife's family in nineteen fourteen, 449 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: so that would have been a couple of years after Veliska, 450 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: as well as murders in Kansas and Colorado, and in 451 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: all of these cases, the victims were bludgeoned with an 452 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: ax in homes where the windows and mirrors were all covered, 453 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: similar to the morse Lings. Detective Wilkerson was so convinced 454 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: that Mansfield had been hired by Jones that he posted 455 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: flyers all over town with Mansfield's face on them that read, 456 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: this is the axe murderer he murdered the more family 457 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: at Veliska. The hypocrite whose dirty money paid for Hellis 458 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: job wants your support for the state Senate. Will he 459 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: get it? So? I'm sure delighted Jones. Uh, and I 460 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: have to say, I think, if you have just accused 461 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: a man of hiring someone to kill a man who 462 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: has made you angry, making him angry and this way 463 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: seems like a really bold and foolish move. Um. But 464 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: while Mansfield does seem like an obvious solution to who 465 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: killed the Moors, and while Detective Wolkerson really seemed for 466 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: the rest of his life that he was certain that 467 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: what that Mansfield was the killer. Uh. Mansfield had an 468 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: art alibi for the time of the Veliska murders that 469 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: placed him in Illinois. There was some payroll happenings that 470 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: indicated that he had had been working there at the time. 471 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: There were some eyewitnesses that placed Mansfield in Vliska and 472 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: not Illinois, but none of those UH eye witness accounts 473 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: for ever substantiated, and Mansfield was eventually set After his release, 474 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: Mansfield sued Wilkerson for slander and he was awarded more 475 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: than two thousand dollars. Wilkerson alleged that Jones had in 476 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: fact managed to use his position of power to secure 477 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: Mansfield's release. Yeah, he also kind of blamed Jones for 478 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: orchestrating the decision In Mansfield's favor during the slander case, 479 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: and he suggested that Frank Jones set up the next 480 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: suspect to kind of take the fall, and that next 481 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: suspect was Reverend George Kelly, who was a preacher who 482 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: had moved to Macedonia, Iowa in nineteen twelve. So after 483 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: the trail went cold with Mansfield, Kelly was arrested and 484 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: charged with the More murders in nineteen seventeen, and he 485 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: was in the Liska for the children's day activities and 486 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: he left town the next morning. He was even alleged 487 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: at one point to have spoken of the murders on 488 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: the train out of town, which is early in the morning, 489 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: before the bodies had even been discovered. He also returned 490 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: to Veliska a week after the murders and he pretended 491 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: to be a detective from Scotland Yard to gain entry 492 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: into the More home. He actually had some mental problems 493 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: that were on record, and Kelly was considered to be 494 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: a sexual deviant, obsessed with sex, and known to have 495 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: been a peeping tom. There have been some theories about 496 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: the rolled up bacon slab that was found downstairs in 497 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: the bedroom had been used as a sexual aid by 498 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: the killer, and that made people really willing to connect 499 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: the dots to to Kelly, who had this reputation. Unlike Mansfield, 500 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: Kelly actually did confess to the murders, and in his 501 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: confession he wrote, I killed the children upstairs first and 502 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: the children downstairs last. I knew God wanted me to 503 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: do it this way. Slay utterly came to my mind, 504 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: and I picked up the axe, went into the house 505 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: and killed them. So that makes it seem like an 506 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: an in shut case. But it all fell apart. He 507 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: wound up recanting his confession, and the witnesses that initially 508 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: claimed he talked to them on the train about the 509 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: murders before it was public knowledge all changed their story. 510 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: He was also a really small man, at five ft 511 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: two inches tall, and he weighed less than a hundred 512 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: and twenty pounds, So the idea of him being able 513 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: to deliver the crushing blows that killed the family was 514 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: a little difficult to support. I imagine at that height 515 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: it might have been also difficult for the upswings of 516 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: the axe to hit the ceiling. Yes, I couldn't find anything. 517 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: I thought about that as well, And I couldn't find 518 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: anything substantial. I'm sure we could do it if with 519 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: a little bit more time to find out what the 520 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: height of the ceilings were in the length of the axe. 521 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: But I did not have time to work out the 522 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: math on that. And while somebody that size could probably 523 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: easily until children, Mr Moore was like six ft tall 524 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: and weighed about two hundred pounds, you know, he was 525 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: a full grown man, so it seemed like that would 526 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: have been a little bit more of a stretch for 527 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: Kelly to be able to manage. Kelly was actually tried 528 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: twice for this crime. The first trial resulted in a 529 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: hung jury, and in the second trial the jury freed 530 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: him because there was really no evidence other than sort 531 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: of the suspicion that he was weird and deviant and 532 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: might be the kind of person to do these things. 533 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: The third suspect was Henry Lee Moore, and in May 534 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirteen, almost a year after the murders, a 535 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: federal investigator on the case named m W. Mccloudy announced 536 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: that he had solved it, as well as twenty two 537 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: other similar cases. Mcclardy believed all of the slings to 538 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: be the work of serial killer Henry Lee Moore, who 539 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: was not actually relation to the More family. It was 540 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: not yet another More brother. Yeah, it was just coincidental 541 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: that they had the last name. UH. A few months 542 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: after the Veliska incident, Henry Moore was convicted of murdering 543 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: his mother and grandmother in Missouri. The brutality of the 544 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: victims was quite similar. They were legend with an ax 545 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: and UH. It should be pointed out that one of 546 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: the things that differs is that he was allegedly motivated 547 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: by money in this he was hoping to gain their 548 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: assets after they died. As the Valiska investigation had gone on, 549 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: multiple similar acts murders were uncovered in Colorado, Illinois, and Kansas, 550 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: and some of these were crimes Mansfield had also been 551 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: linked to by other investigators, but McClary thought they were 552 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: all Henry Moore's doing. More actually served thirty six years 553 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: of his life sentence for the deaths of his mother 554 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: and grandmother. UH, and then he was paroled in nineteen 555 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: forty nine. UH. He ended up having his sentence commuted 556 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: some years later when he was in his eighties. UM. 557 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: He kind of falls off the public record after that. 558 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: No one really knows, like where he went or how 559 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: he died, but he was never formally charged for the 560 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: murders in Valiska, despite mccloudy's insistence that he was clearly 561 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: the one who had done it. In addition to these 562 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: three high profile suspects, there were so so many others, 563 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: And initially it was because of the shocking nature of 564 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: the hot side. Citizens of Aliska suspected anyone who wasn't 565 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: from around there. Some of them were legitimately suspect, although 566 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: not not ever actually linked to the murders, and some 567 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: of them were simply guilty of being strangers. And I 568 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: wanted to make a note about the similarities among the 569 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: murders UH that were discovered in other states and other areas, 570 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: and the use of an AX as the murder weapon. 571 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: It's worth considering just food for thought that this was 572 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: a time when almost every home would have an X, 573 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: often readily accessible UH. Mike dash, who was a writer 574 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: that wrote an article for the Smithsonian in twelve about 575 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: the Valiska killings, makes the point that this sort of 576 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: could be considered a weapon of convenience for the times, 577 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: like in the Midwest, if you just wanted to go 578 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: on a killing spree, an act was pretty easy to 579 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: get a hold of. Additionally, as is the case often 580 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: with high profile crimes, confessors came out of the woodwork 581 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: for decades. People were confessing to the crime well into 582 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,719 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, although many of these confessions got details 583 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: wildly wrong. Yeah, you know that. That happens with any 584 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: big UH murder case. Or there are people that confess 585 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: that could not have done it for whatever reasons, but those, 586 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: of course, we're pretty easily dismissed in most cases. Um 587 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: So jumping to sort of the modern day UH in 588 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 1: The house where J. B. More and his family were 589 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: killed was purchased by Darwin and Martha Lynn, and the 590 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: Lins restored the house to its nineteen twelve condition and 591 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: the residents was placed on the National Historic Places Regis Stree. 592 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: Prior to the Lens purchase, the house had passed through 593 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: many hands of ownership and it had been repeatedly renovated, 594 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: so it was really quite a significant restoration effort. Today 595 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: you can tour the home. It's actually a museum and 596 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: for a little less than five hundred dollars a night 597 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: you can book sleepovers in the murder house. It's actually 598 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: one of the main draws of Valisco, which is pretty 599 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: rural town. If you want a book on the anniversary 600 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: of the murders, though, there's a lottery, and there have 601 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: been many discussions and debates through the years about whether 602 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: it's right for a business to grow out of such 603 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: a tragedy and so much brutality. These debates probably go 604 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: on for as long as the museum is open. Yeah, 605 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of articles if you search for 606 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: this that talk about it kind of from the modern standpoint. 607 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: They really do discuss kind of that this is a 608 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: problem and something that continues to be debated, and and 609 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: they kind of look at like the Valisca murder houses, 610 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: this odd money making been sort of but you know, 611 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: that's something that you can draw your own conclusions and 612 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: have your own opinions of um. Paranormal investigators and ghost 613 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: hunters have of course kind of flocked to this house 614 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 1: hoping to get some activity that they can record or discuss. 615 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: It's been featured on a lot of numerous television reality 616 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: and making the air quotes shows, uh, And there have 617 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: been several documentaries made about the murders that are less 618 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: about sensationalizing it and making a haunted house, a ghost story, 619 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: but really just trying to break down the actual crime. Um. 620 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like a broken record when I 621 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: do this wrap up, because we do it for almost 622 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: any of the cases where they're go unsolved. But odds 623 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: are that this one is not ever going to be solved, 624 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: and the further away we get from the date of 625 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: when it actually happened, the less and less evidence there 626 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: will be to go on. So it will remain a 627 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: draw for crime history buffs and visitors to the Valiska 628 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: murder House. Uh, probably for quite some time. But that 629 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: is the Valiska Murderer, which, as I said, we're requested 630 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: by a large number of people. Very unsettling and disturbing 631 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: to think about. Uh, but you know, good Halloween fodder. 632 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: And again it is a huge tragedy. I mean, like 633 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: I said, I'm not a kids person, but reading these 634 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 1: testimonies about what happened to these children was so rough 635 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, I kept I kept like going, like, 636 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: let's go hug a kitty. I having to go out 637 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: to cartoon for fifteen minutes, just anything to kind of 638 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: break the intensity of that. Well. And in addition to 639 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: how I got genuinely creeped out sitting here when you 640 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: said all the mirrors were covered up with their clothing. Um. 641 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: The part about their you know, the parents of the 642 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: children who were visiting the home calling over there because 643 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: they were expecting them to be home for school, that 644 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: really got to me. It's it's very upsetting to think about. 645 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: I mean, these were, you know, kids that were part 646 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: of someone's lives and it was just it could be 647 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: it's one of those this could happen to anyone kinds 648 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: of things. Um. And I think especially when these kinds 649 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: of crimes happen in rural community, these that were very 650 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: you know, friendly and and pretty free of this kind 651 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: of thing. It's really shocking. It kind of reminds me 652 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: of when I first read In Cold Blood by Dream 653 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: Capodi as a kid, because it's kind of a similar 654 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: There's some parallels there. Um. It's hard to think about 655 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: what a mental shift that has to be for the 656 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: entire community to be like one day life is one 657 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: way and the next day you see it all completely differently. Yeah, 658 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: there was a similar actually even at the same similar 659 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: time period, mass murder in the tiny, tiny rural town 660 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: that I grew up in, and it had similar horrific 661 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: elements and similar like family members found in their beds, 662 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, this is uncanny when I 663 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: got her outline. Can we move on to some perhaps 664 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: less disturbing listener mail and so much less disturbing. I 665 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: have two short pieces because I know this episode has 666 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: been a little bit lengthy. UH about Ethan Allen? And 667 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: the first one is from UH our listener Hannah, and 668 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: she says, Hello, Tracy and Holly. My paternal grandfather made 669 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: a hobby of tracing his family ancestry. My other three 670 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: grandparents have straightforward lineages, but Papa's family was rather more convoluted. 671 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: One of the things he discovered and is searching was 672 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: that he was descended from Ethan Allen. And besides old, 673 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: perhaps less than reliable records, the evidence of this is 674 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: actually in the names of the men in my father's family, 675 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: back and back and back. The men of one of 676 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: my grandfather's lines all have the middle name Allen and 677 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: variations thereupon, in honor of perhaps their most famous progenitor. 678 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: It's such a cool I always love it when people 679 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: have connections to history like that. Um, we got a 680 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 1: lot after a FIDUA episode and then there is another 681 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: Ethan Allen one from our listener, Vincent, and he says 682 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: love the podcast. And for some reason, I never wrote 683 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: you all before, probably because I usually listened in the car, 684 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: But today I happened to be at my desk when 685 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: I finished listening to part two of your Ethan Allen podcast. 686 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know how I first learned 687 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: of him. I didn't learn his name from the furniture store. 688 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: We didn't have one near me that I knew of 689 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: until I was in high school. I actually learned his 690 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: name from a box of pencils. I always wanted to 691 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: draw comics as a kid, and I still draw them now. 692 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: And once saw a photo of Charles M. Schultz's desk 693 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: and got a good look at the brand of pencils 694 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: he used, So I bought a box the next time 695 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: I was in an office supply store to get school supplies. 696 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: On my box of Dixon Ticonderoga Number two pencils is 697 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: the story of Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys. 698 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: I kind of love that. I love that he got 699 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: his connection to Ethan Ellen one three pencils, which is 700 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: sort of charming. And to that there's a Charles Schultz connection, 701 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: because perhaps one day we will discuss peanuts on the podcast, 702 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: if you would like to. Oh, and I want to 703 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: mention briefly before I go to that. I know we've 704 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: gotten some flak over our pronunciation of Bella Lagosi's name. 705 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: I will tell you why. It's because when I pronounce 706 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: it correctly in the Hungarian language, which is Bela, I 707 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: sound like the count from Sesame Street and just or 708 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: like I've mentioned to one of our fans that posted 709 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: about it on Facebook, like or some Hungarian variation of 710 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: Tina Phey's character from Muppets. Most wanted it, but comes 711 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: very comedic, and I did not want to do that well, 712 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: and mine becomes comedic in an entirely different way. That 713 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: embarrasses me so much that I'm not even going to 714 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: try to say it, because somehow every ounce of Southern 715 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: drawl that I have, so I can see that a 716 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: three syllable word, I could understand how that would happen. 717 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: And I will say that I watched a lot of 718 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: footage of him, like in interviews and stuff whatever I 719 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: could get my hands on, and he seemed to not 720 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: mind when people pronounced it Bella, so I was not 721 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: worried too much about it. Yeah, sorry, I'm sorry if 722 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: that dismayed anyone who actually speaks Hungarian and thought you 723 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: yol well, and having having, for my part, having mostly 724 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: seen uh like documentary footage about him that was made 725 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: and produced in the United States. There are a lot 726 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: of American actors and commentators who pronounced it that way. 727 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: So I genuinely was unaware that there was a different 728 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: way to pronounce it, and so we got into that discussion. Yeah, 729 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: I would sound like the count. I really do. Uh. 730 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: So I apologize if that bothered anybody. I made that 731 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: decision based on my desire cannot make it a comedy. 732 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, you can 733 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: do so. We are at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. 734 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: You can also connect with us at Facebook dot com, 735 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 1: slash missed in History at missed in History on Twitter, 736 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: missed in History dot tumbler dot com, Interest dot com, 737 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: slash missed in History, and you can check out our 738 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: selection of missed in History goodies at missed in History 739 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: dot spreadshirt dot com. And you would like to get 740 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: a T shirt or a mug or any number of 741 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: other fun accessories with our logo and some other fun 742 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: designs on them. You would like to learn a little 743 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: bit more about a related topic to what we talked 744 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: about today, go to our parents site how stuff Works. 745 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: If you type in the phrase pivotal murders in the 746 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: search bar, you're going to get an article. It's pretty new, 747 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: called top ten Historically Pivotal Murders, and it talks about 748 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: some murders that kind of did things. Uh, they had 749 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: an effect similar to what this one had, where it 750 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: really shifted the way a community or you know, uh, 751 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: even the world looked at things after it had happened. 752 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: So you can do something that at our website at 753 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: our parents site, how stuff works dot com. You can 754 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: also visit us at mist in history dot com or 755 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: show notes all of our episodes archive and the occasional 756 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: fund blog posts. We hope you visit us at mt 757 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: in history dot com and hous dot for more on 758 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 759 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: works dot com