1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: This week's classic classic episode might might ruffle a few 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: feathers and shake a few tentacles. Generally speaking, people like democracy, 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: but behind closed doors, a lot of folks think democracy 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: is just something you sell to the roots. Yeah, I mean, 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: the original name of the episode was is Democracy Possible? 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: We could just you know, nip it in the butt 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: here and just say no end of episode. 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: But it's a. 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: Little more complex than that, y'all. There are nuances. 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna jump into the story of a dude 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 2: you may not know called Walter Lippmann. This dude is fascinating, 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: probably not one of our favorite guys on the planet 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: that existed, but yeah, it just he he illustrates. Let's 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: say he writes directly about how to control people using 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: democracy as like a guy's. 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers, government conspiracies. History is riddled 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 3: with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: the stuff they don't want you to know. 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 20 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. Our compatriot Nol is away for 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: the moment, but never fear. Our super producer Paul decint 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: is here. Most importantly, you're here and you are you 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: that makes this stuff? They don't want you to know. 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: Now, you may recall our very first episode ever on 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: a a gentleman named Edward Berneze, one of the most 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: important and slightly obscure, at least until our episode came 27 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: out thinkers in history. 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: Right. 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: Yes, the the man commonly known as the father of 30 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: public relations, the most famous, most famous relative of Sigmund 31 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: Freud in our modern age. Both of those things are true. 32 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: If you're a fan of this show and you haven't 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: listened to that episode of the podcast, it is one 34 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: of the few that Matt and I categorically recommend you 35 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: listen to and share with your friends, family, and colleagues 36 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: without going too far into what happens in that episode. 37 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: Let's put it this way, Edward Berneze is the reason 38 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: that you Andrew loved ones, as well as your enemies too, 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: probably practice several things that seem normal today seem normal. 40 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know that very very quickly. It's insane 41 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: how quickly people can become accustomed to something, something that 42 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 2: is not normal, and then all of a sudden becomes 43 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 2: normal to the average individual, to an entire community, perhaps, 44 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: or even civilization as a whole something that was never 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: done before and now it's normal. 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, it's likewise astonishing how rarely we question bizarre things. 47 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: So often we high behind the idea of tradition as 48 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: a species, I mean, or so often we don't ask 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: fundamental questions about why something is framed the way it 50 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: is or presented the way it is. For instance, why 51 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: do we eat bacon for breakfast? This was not the 52 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: case for the vast majority of human eras on this planet. 53 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Why are we actually at war with a particular country 54 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: at any given time? And one that I always go 55 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: back to as a strange example here is Matt, why 56 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: do people wear ties like neckties? 57 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: Oh? Well, it's because of the form. It's all about form, 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: not so much function. Yeah, it just looks really good 59 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: to have that line going down the chest. 60 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: Someone's read a couple of guides, I. 61 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: See, yes, make it work. 62 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: So there, Yeah, that's that's a good point. We did 63 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: earlier on a different show that we've worked with in 64 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: the past called brain Stuff, we looked at the origin 65 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: of where neckties come from, and Matt, you are spot 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: on correct? 67 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: Was that actually correct? 68 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: It serves no function? 69 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: Oh? Okay, good, it's not I was talking from the 70 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: took us. 71 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: It's not a functional thing. It took us as more 72 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: functional than an actie. So leading to this, why why 73 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: does a country work a certain way? Folks think about 74 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: the government in the country that you live in today 75 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: or the governments and countries used to live in. Right, 76 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: how closely does the government in practice adhere to the theory 77 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: of government as outlined in your country's constitution or other documents? 78 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, getting it right for some of the 79 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: most part. 80 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: Well, most people, regardless of where they live, will generally 81 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: agree that there is at least some degree of difference 82 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: between the government on paper and the government in practice. 83 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: Right, mm hm. 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: And in some cases this can seem like a relatively 85 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: obscure difference, right, or it can seem like a matter 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: of persnickety nitpicking interpretation. But speaking of obscure, today's episode 87 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: focuses on another figure, sort of like Brene's, another profoundly important, 88 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: equally obscure historical figure, Walter Lippmann. 89 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: Now, when we say he's obscure, we mean to the public, 90 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: to the everyday Joe and Jane walking around. They probably 91 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: don't know who Walter Lippan is. I did not know 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: who this person was until we started thinking about this 93 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: episode and reading some of the materials. Just like Edward Bernez, 94 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: but the but these gentlemen were very much well known 95 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: within circles of the powerful. I think we should at 96 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: least like put that out there rights like they were. 97 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: They were the guy. 98 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the we were. It's funny because before Paul 99 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: Matt and I went on air today, I brought in 100 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: a fancy glass for my typical coffee because we are 101 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: talking about the elite, and. 102 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: It looks like an absentthe glass. Gotta be honest with you. 103 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'll tell you what it is. Truth be told. 104 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: Not as convenient as the regular mug or a cup 105 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: that I would typically use, but you know. 106 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 2: Tradition, right, so very nice. 107 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: So here are the facts about Walter Lippman. As we 108 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: said nowadays, Walter Lippman is let's say you're enough that 109 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: were you to walk on a on the average city 110 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: street and ask someone you know identify the following figures. Say, 111 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: you know Neil Armstrong, probably know that I know he's 112 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: some sort of astronaut. Maybe at the least identify you know, 113 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: the big current or past presidents. It probably probably at 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: least recognized the name of past presidents, right, But if 115 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: you said, who's Walter Lippman, they would say does he 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: Does he own the grocery store? I don't know, unless, 117 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: of course, you were asking someone in Harvard, and then 118 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: the answer might very well be I think that's a 119 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: building on campus. 120 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the Lipmann Building. 121 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: But as you said, Matt, in his day, this man 122 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: was profoundly influential and remain so. 123 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: So let's get to know him a little bit. Walter 124 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,679 Speaker 2: Litman was born on September twenty third, eighteen eighty nine, 125 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty nine, in New York. He was a child 126 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: of privilege. He attended the Sachs School for Boys before 127 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: matriculating into Harvard now Sachs. By the way, Sachs. You 128 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: might recognize that name somewhere with a goldman in front 129 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: of it, right, like golden Yes. And this is where 130 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: he studied at Harvard under the famous philosopher and novelist 131 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: George Santayana, who. 132 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: Was a teacher of numerous other numerous other people who 133 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: went on to become literary lions. 134 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: You know, T. 135 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: S Eliot would be one of the most famous examples. 136 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: Then, in May of nineteen ten, he began his career 137 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: in journalism as a cub reporter with the Boston Common 138 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: after he dropped out of his the master's course that 139 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 2: he was taking at Harvard University. 140 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because we found a couple of 141 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: different things in the research. Who find many biographies as 142 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: say he graduated in nineteen ten, and then you'll find 143 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: other writers who say that he dropped out. Yeah, so 144 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: either way, he did go to Harvard. At some point 145 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: he was assistant to the philosopher novelist George Santiana. In 146 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen, Lippmann co founded a paper called The New Republic. 147 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: It's a liberal American magazine. The published articles on politics 148 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: and the arts, and in that same year he published 149 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: a book called A Preface to Politics and his writing. 150 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: His philosophy at this time, in this early phase, garnered 151 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: the attention of one Woodrow Wilson. 152 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: In just a little side note there about the New Republic. 153 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: At the time when he founded it and for quite 154 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: some time afterwards, it had a fairly small readership of 155 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: only you know, ten to twenty thousand people. But the 156 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: people reading that magazine were the important people. 157 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: Right, the bankers, the jurists. And in nineteen fourteen Lippman 158 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: was appointed as an advisor to President Wilson Woodrow Wilson, 159 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: and during this time he helped the president draft a 160 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: famous speech about World War One and was called The 161 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: Fourteen Points. You can read it in full online today. 162 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: So Lippman was at this point an interventionist in a 163 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: largely isolationist society. And what we mean by that is 164 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: that the majority of the US public did not support 165 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: foreign intervention because there was this feeling that, well, won 166 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: why should we get involved, Right, It's imperialist on some level. 167 00:10:52,400 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: And two we're separated by oceans, right, and there's no 168 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: imminent threat at this point. In this isolationist society, Lippmann 169 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: was an interventionist. He was one of the people who 170 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: argued that it was both rational and advantageous for the 171 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: United States to enter into World War One. In some 172 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: capacity or another. He wrote propaganda that was meant to 173 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: sway the needle on public support. Right, Because in a 174 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: representative democracy, the theory goes that the voters must support 175 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: a large scale government action, or at least the majority 176 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: of voters must support something for it to occur. 177 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: Yes, because the representative part of that government, the people's 178 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: part of the government in Congress, they are the ones 179 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: that actually declare war in enact war, especially at this 180 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: time for World War War. So you had to get 181 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: the voters in the people's voice to say, yes, let's 182 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: do this. 183 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: And so Lippman and Edward Berneze both worked for what 184 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: was called the Committee on Public Information. I love that name, 185 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: the Committee on Public Information. And this was a wartime 186 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: propaganda institution built to do two things. First, to spread 187 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: or propagate pro intervention, pro war literature, art, music, anything 188 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: in pop culture, as well as academic arguments for intervention 189 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: on the part of the US. And then the second 190 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: task was to suppress, discredit, or destroy anything that was 191 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: anti war. So if you just pulling an example out 192 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: of thin air, one way in which something like this 193 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: might occur still happens today, it happened for decades after, 194 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: would be Let's say there are two there are two 195 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: art galleries in a town, and one of them has 196 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: as a featured artist who is glorifying the moral duty 197 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: or imperative to save people in another country. And this 198 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: gallery is filled with this one artist work. And then 199 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: in the other gallery, there's someone who has a exhibits 200 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: about imperialism and the unintentional tyranny of intervening, whatever your intentions, 201 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: in a culture you don't understand, in a civilization that 202 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: never asked for nor needed your help. What this sort 203 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: of operation would do would not be to have the 204 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: government openly shut them down. You would have critics from 205 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: new newspapers praising whichever side, it doesn't matter what side 206 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about. We have critics praising the interventionists if 207 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: they want to intervene, or praising the isolationists, and then 208 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: you would have them also dismissing or ignoring the other 209 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: side of that cultural argument. 210 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: And it's almost this soft aggression tactic that is employed 211 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: by this stuff, and in a weird way, it's not 212 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: fully going after a lot of times, at least from 213 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: what I was reading in this research, the Committee on 214 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: Public Information wouldn't necessarily physically go after anyone, but they 215 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: would use the media to, like you said, ben completely 216 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: ignore or just trash something that they didn't agree with. 217 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: Right, yes, exactly. And the most important part of that 218 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: is in these sorts of operations, you wouldn't know the 219 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: ultimate force behind this trend. It would appear to be 220 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: this is the most important part. It would appear to 221 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: be an organic consensus arrived at by every Jane John 222 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: and Jimmy Smith in America, just to pick I don't know, ridiculously. 223 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: It's almost like the rotten tomato score. If the tomato 224 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: score is at a certain height, or you know, if 225 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: it's in the eighties, you're like, oh, man, okay, I'm 226 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: going to go see that. You don't even have to 227 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: read this stuff about it. If it's in like the 228 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: thirties or twenties, then oh, I'm never probably not gonna 229 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: go see that. 230 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: Trash because you don't have time usually if you're the 231 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: average person to go through and read every single review. 232 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: Now you want the bottom line, the best news, Explain 233 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: it to me now, because I'm almost off the elevator 234 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: right or the light almost turned green, as the case 235 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: would be, from any communities. 236 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: Or only have twenty bucks to spend, and I gotta 237 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: choose where I'm gonna spend it. 238 00:15:53,880 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: Even better, Lipmann also traveled the world and wrote prolifically, 239 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: that's that's such a fantastic dream life. You know, I 240 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: think here I am in Vienna, and here were my 241 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: thoughts on the Viennese. 242 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: Oh, man, you want to be Anthony Bourdaines so badly, 243 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: don't you? 244 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: Lipman? 245 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 3: No? 246 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: You? 247 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: Oh? I you know what? You know what? 248 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: Little food centric? 249 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: I think. I think he's doing a great job being 250 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: Anthony Boardain. Okay, but I appreciate it. Yeah, I'd love 251 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: Who wouldn't love to travel the world and write I don't. 252 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, I can't think of anyone. 253 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: So Lippman was no exception to that rule that we 254 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: have arbitrarily decided as almost universal. 255 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: So then on September eighth, nineteen thirty one, Lipman's column 256 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: for the New York Herald, which was called Today and 257 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: Tomorrow Love that title it first appeared, and eventually this 258 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: was syndicated to more than two hundred and fifty newspapers 259 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: within the United States and then another twenty five other nations. 260 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: And then it also won two Pulitzer Prizes, one in 261 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight and another in nineteen sixty two. 262 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: So in his day, Walter Lippman was a world famous 263 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: columnist for the New York Times and other papers of note, 264 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: and overall the world held his opinion in tremendously high regard. 265 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: He lived amid New York's elite and therefore a percentage 266 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: of the world's elite. He dined with presidents, he would 267 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: write speeches for them, He advised them in formal and 268 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: informal capacities. He was a true man behind the curtain. 269 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what he truly believed in. 270 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this is all well and good. But why 271 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: why is he the subject of today's episode? Is he them? 272 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: Is he that? 273 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 2: They? 274 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: And stuff? They don't want you to know. What did 275 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: he actually believe? We'll tell you afterward from our sponsor. 276 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: So let's bring the rubber to the road. Matt Walter 277 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: Lippman is responsible for creating, popularizing, coining several terms that 278 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: you have almost certainly used at some point in your life, 279 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: friends and neighbors. The first one is the well let's 280 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: do let's do one that's little us specific first, that's 281 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: the Cold War. He is the person who popularized the 282 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: term cold war with a series of articles in nineteen 283 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: forty seven called the Cold War. 284 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: Uh right, yeah, pretty good. When you title something, it's 285 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: probably gonna stick. 286 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: In those articles, he was speaking out against President Truman's 287 00:18:54,240 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: policy of containment and the more popular term that you 288 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: have obviously heard. There's no one who has not heard 289 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: this term, at least no one that speaks English that 290 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: has not heard this term, and that is stereotype. 291 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: Yes, one of his works, Public Opinion, It begins with 292 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: the world outside and the Pictures in our heads. This 293 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: is the chapter that introduced his idea of a stereotype, 294 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: what a stereotype is, and it explained how public opinion 295 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: was formed and how it was manipulated because of what 296 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: we trust as what he called an authentic messenger. So, 297 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: as we mentioned before, Littmann was working with the Committee 298 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: on Public Information also called the Creole Committee, and they 299 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: were influencing public opinion by censoring information that was anti war. 300 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: They're also producing thousands of these pro war pamphlets and 301 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 2: cartoons and magazines, movies, all kinds of media. Also, the 302 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: USA would enter World War one or World War let's 303 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: say in nineteen seventeen, it wasn't a one at the time. 304 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: Nobody was waiting for this sequel. 305 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: But the whole idea is that the United States said 306 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: it was not going to enter World War one no 307 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: matter what, and this committee is sitting there actively trying 308 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: to make it happen. 309 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: Right, So this idea of a stereotype, the picture in 310 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: our heads versus the world outside, is the subject of 311 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: a great deal thought in public opinion in the Lipmann book. 312 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: In this work, he attempts to explain how these pictures 313 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: that arise almost spontaneously in people's minds. He was hoping 314 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: to explain how those come about. The most simple way 315 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: to say it would be that, according to Lippmann, we 316 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: all live in these second hand worlds, and we live 317 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: this way because we are aware of much more than 318 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: we have ever personally experienced. You know, like Neil Armstrong. 319 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: We know that astronauts exist, but many people have never met, 320 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: and we'll never meet one. We know that billionaires exist, 321 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: but many people have never met and we'll never meet one. 322 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 3: We know that. 323 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: What Reddit loves this joke about this town in Germany 324 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: that everyone says doesn't exist. Maybe a better example would 325 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: be Bhutan. You know, the nation of Bhutan exists, but 326 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: many people will never go there. 327 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: That's good. 328 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: So, according to this, Lipman's argument is that our own 329 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: personal experience is primarily secondhand, primarily indirect. We read about things, 330 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: we watch things about things, and hope that the people 331 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: who have experienced it directly, are telling us something objective, 332 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: rational and accurate. 333 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: The truth? 334 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, In other words, the truth. 335 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: Yes, that's why when you get Mermaid on Discovery Channel, 336 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: you're like, what, oh boy, sorry. 337 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: I think enough time has passed for us to tell people. 338 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: We've talked about it before. 339 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: So here's another aspect. What did he think of democracy? 340 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: Because you see, Lippmann wouldn't have considered himself just a journalist. 341 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: In fact, he considered himself a public philosopher, and most 342 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: of his work centered around the concept of democracy in 343 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: all its forms, representative democracies, so on. So what did 344 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: you think of it? Unfortunately it's a terrifying question. Early on, 345 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: he was optimistic about this American or US flavor of democracy. 346 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: He embraced what we will call a Jeffersonian perspective. He 347 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: believed that the American public would become intellectually engaged in 348 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: political and world issues, and that they would fulfill the 349 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: ultimate role of the public right, which is to be 350 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: an educated electorate. Not only does everyone vote, but everyone 351 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: understands the issues of play and why they're voting the 352 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: way that they do. If you ask them who the uh, 353 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: if you ask them who the county commissioner is going 354 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: to be and why they would know if you ask 355 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: them about humanitarian spending in you know, Yemen or in 356 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: Mauritania or something, not only would they know their position 357 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: on it, but they would know why. 358 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you support engaging Germany and defending Poland or 359 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: you know, some something to that effect. And you would 360 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 2: hope that the person would come back with a reasoned 361 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: argument about why or why not. That'd be nice. 362 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: Sure, well, that was that's the optimistic view. But with 363 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: the role of industrialization weighing heavy in his mind the 364 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: events leading to World War Two and the spread of totalitarianism, 365 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: Lippmann came to reject this view. Instead, he felt that 366 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: nobody was questioning fundamental assumptions of democracy. 367 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't believe democracy as we understand it was 368 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: working at all, And specifically, he didn't believe that the 369 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: average citizen was in any way qualified to have any 370 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: kind of input in the rebel of politics or in 371 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: the actions of the state. And basically the public was 372 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: being led around like this pack of animals by journalists 373 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: and the media and people who reported what the government 374 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: was saying. 375 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: Right during the nineteen twenties, Lippmann published two more books, 376 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: which were criticisms indictments of humanity. They were, in the 377 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: parlance of our time, they were distracts, right like hot 378 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: mixtape distracts. One was called The Criticizing Democracy, one was 379 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: called Public Opinion, and the other was called the Phantom Public. 380 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: The American voter, Lippmann claimed, was not capable of acting 381 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: out of any rational collective self interest or even fully 382 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: considering the issues at hand in a rational way, not 383 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: only not having an answer to a question, but not 384 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: understanding the question. Instead, he said, the average voter was 385 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: ill informed, myopic, and prone to fits of enthusiasm. So 386 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: in his disillusionment, if we were to put it in 387 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: a modern context, would be something along the lines of, hey, 388 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: you are supposed to vote in every election based on 389 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: your aggregate calculation, whatever that might be, of who becomes 390 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: the best candidate, or why you think a certain local 391 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: law should or should not be in place. When he 392 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: says that a voter is ill informed, he means that 393 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: they He means they don't know what they're talking about, right, 394 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: they don't understand the issue for one reason or another. 395 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: And when he says myopic, he means that they might 396 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: be what's often called a single issue voter, someone who says, well, 397 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: I will typically vote, you know, for a certain ideological 398 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: standpoint or a certain party line, But the only thing 399 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: I really care about is, you know, the the the 400 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: illegality of owning a will to beast. I think it 401 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: should be illegal. I think that, you know, the country's 402 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: going to hell in a handbasket if one more person 403 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: can own a will to beast. Well, yeah, and that's 404 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: that's what I vote on. 405 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 2: That's it. And that's that's where you get some of 406 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: the more social issues becoming the most prominent things that 407 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: are spoken about in the media. Sure, you think about 408 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: stances on abortion or stances on Second Amendment rights, things 409 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 2: that aren't necessarily the most important things to be focusing on, 410 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: but they become the one thing that the voter will 411 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: latch onto. 412 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: And that's the craziest part because essentially it makes this 413 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: an exercise in mad lib in a very dangerous way. 414 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 415 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: I hope everybody has had the wonderful opportunity to play 416 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: mad lib on a road trip or something growing up. 417 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: But mad lib is a game wherein you ask. 418 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: Talking to people like they don't know what mad libs are. 419 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I feel like, we can't make assumptions. 420 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: I guess, so, yeah, you're right, what are you giving 421 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: me this voice? Let's let's tell people what mad libs are. 422 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: You do it, but do it in the voice. 423 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 2: Okay. Mad libs, you guys, is where you got a 424 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: bunch of blanks in a sentence, a long set of 425 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: sentences perhaps, and you fill those blanks in with nouns 426 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: and adjectives, adverbs, and then you read the whole thing 427 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: and you got this jumble wack of noodle sentence. 428 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: I feel like you are unfairly criticizing. I don't know, 429 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: not everybody, okay it maybe maybe everybody knows what bath 430 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: lips are? You think they do? 431 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think you're I think we're somewhere 432 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: in the middle. Some people don't know what they are. 433 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: But people who are listening to this podcast not ad lib. 434 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: Is yeah, probably too okay, all right? 435 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 2: Hey, right? In conspiracy and how stuff works that come, 436 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 2: do you know what a mad live is? 437 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: So the reason I'm setting that up, Matt, is because 438 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: the it's it's a fundamental assumption that you and I 439 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: are making that you're absolutely right that people would all 440 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: know what a mad lib is. And how it functions. Right, 441 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: and so the idea of fits of enthusiasm, right, that's 442 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: the last, the last piece of his his primary criticism there, 443 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: the idea of of enthusiasm would be best explained today 444 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: by social media. Right. So you see a post and 445 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: it shared over and over. Look at all these assholes 446 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: buying wild tobeast, you know what I mean. Yeah, this 447 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: has to stop. And then all of a sudden, somebody 448 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: who ordinarily would never vote and never you know, go 449 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: to a protest or maybe even isn't that active in 450 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: their social media. Right, then all of a sudden it's 451 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: the most important thing, you know. And we've talked a 452 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: little bit about the really really depressing, borderline disgusting news 453 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: cycle that occurs not just in mass media, broadcast media, 454 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: but also in social media, where you see a tragedy, 455 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: a real genuine tragedy occur, and then two weeks later, 456 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: the people who were incredibly incensed about it have completely 457 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: forgotten because now, god forbid, someone wears something stupid at 458 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: an award show, which, yeah, I know it sounds brutal, 459 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: but that's the fact of the matter. So that's what 460 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: I think is talking about when he says fits of enthusiasms. 461 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right. And another thing that you 462 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: could kind of lock into that would be the sloganism 463 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: that has occurred at least in the past two elections, 464 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: and it occurs throughout American elections. But having yes we 465 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: can chanted by people and then put on bumper stickers 466 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: and then that single sentimentality of yes we can do 467 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: it becoming this moving force for voters and then make 468 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: America great again as well. Just something that encapsulates the 469 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 2: enthusiasm of the people who you are trying to get 470 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: behind you. 471 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know, or denigrates the value of 472 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: the perception of people or institutions that are again which 473 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: you want to have, how right, Like dirty wilde beasters. 474 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just going to ride this wilde beest. 475 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, comparison to the ground. Oh boy, yeah we 476 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: uh we could. I should have picked Oh there we go. 477 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: I should have picked a better I should have picked 478 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: a better animal. 479 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: I think will bets are great. 480 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm learning about wildebeest. 481 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: Uh. 482 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: For an unrelated thing. 483 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 2: Happens to the best of us. 484 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: Sounds a little sketchy, but it's a it's a true story. 485 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: Write in let us know about your experiences with Wildebeeste. 486 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: So this, this idea that voters will tend to not 487 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: know what's going on, will tend to focus on only 488 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: one thing, and will tend to uh impulsively lash out 489 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: and sporadic burst or impulsively participate in sporadic first rather 490 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: than continually exercising the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. 491 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: Uh. 492 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: This, he argued, was being used to insidious advantage by 493 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: other forces in play. 494 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he thought other parts of the government perfected the 495 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 2: art of manipulating the public. It's this idea of manufacturing consent. 496 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: You might recognize that phrase from some of Noam Chomsky's work. 497 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: He took it directly from Walter Littman, and he stated 498 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: that before, like, you know, it's this idea of nineteen 499 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: eighty four. Right, we've always been at war with East Asia? 500 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: Oh Man, Right, I thought we had always been at 501 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: war with Oshana. 502 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: Another one of Litman's beliefs was that the American people's 503 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: increasing obsession with consumerism was causing them to have a 504 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: decreased awareness and concern for pressing public issues. So basically, 505 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: they were being distracted by constantly wanting to buy new things, 506 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 2: upgrade at this point their house, upgrade, their lives and 507 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: the things around them, rather than the larger issues that 508 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: were looming overhead. 509 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: Okay, I see. So that the idea then that keeping 510 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: up with the Joneses becomes one of the number one 511 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: policy issues for a household. 512 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, just the Yeah, you're absolutely right. The 513 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: policy issue is now within the home and the clothes 514 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: that you're wearing and the food that you're eating. And 515 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: it's just it doesn't matter if there's something going on 516 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: in Europe, right. 517 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: I see all these people posting these high minded, sanctimonious 518 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: arguments about owning wild animals, But do they even have 519 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 1: a refrigerator? Do they even have cable? 520 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: And where are they posting them? And then nineteen hundreds. 521 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: Like a bulletin board. 522 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: That's what it is, the community bulletin board. 523 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, at the corners at the general store. Yeah, good call. Though, 524 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: Matt so he felt that journalism was partially to blame 525 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: for this because it was not fulfilling what he saw 526 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: as its correct duties, which again, in theory on paper, 527 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: would be providing rational, accurate information. And one big issue 528 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: for him in this regard was what was known as 529 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: muck raking, or what we call investigative journalism, if we 530 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: want to put a neck tie on it. And he 531 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: objected to this because he saw as a means to 532 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: foment distrust of public institutions and officials. And then Flipmann wondered, 533 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: you know what, why should someone who isn't a physicist 534 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: have a voice in conversations about physics? And you know 535 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: that makes sense, right if the physicists of the world 536 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: are all one room and they're arguing about the latest 537 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: theory in physics, right, and what we can learn. The 538 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: future rushes towards infinite in its promise, and it's danger. 539 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: And then there's one guy who's not a physicist. He's 540 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: just like in the room. 541 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: He's a psychiatrist. 542 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: Okay, sure he's qualified in something else. Maybe he's a psychiatrist. 543 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: What can he lend to this conversation. I happen to 544 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: think a psychiatrist would be able to lend a lot 545 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: of insight into a conversation with physicist. 546 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he just he's he can't spell very well. 547 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: So he saw the sign on the door with the 548 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 2: committee and physicist, and he thought he was in the 549 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: right place. 550 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: There we go. That seems to make sense right on 551 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: some level. So Lippmann, if you can imagine him scratching 552 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: his chin for a second here and thinks, yeah, that 553 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: checks out. So how is the world of politics any different? 554 00:35:51,480 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: And we'll explore Litman's thought on that right after this. 555 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: This is the dangerous part. No single individual, Lipmann thought, 556 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: could easily understand the complexity of the modern world. There's 557 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: just too much stuff going on. Furthermore, he believed that 558 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: the idea of an authentic public opinion, meaning a consensus 559 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: or agreement formed by people who were knowledgeable about public 560 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: affairs and interested in public affairs. He believed this was 561 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: mainly a myth. This was a unicorn. This was winning 562 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: the lottery seventeen times in two weeks. I guess it 563 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: could happen. 564 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you would have to have a lot of things 565 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: go perfectly right in order to achieve that state. I 566 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: think so. I think perhaps Littman might be on the 567 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 2: right track there, But he's a bit polarizing about it. 568 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: He's just one way or the other way. He proposed 569 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 2: that the most effective form of governance would be a 570 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 2: world in which. 571 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,439 Speaker 1: The elite, the cogniscente. 572 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 2: Oh, the cognisant. That's those who are in the know, 573 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: just like you listening out there. He thought they would have. 574 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 2: If these people had all of the authoritative agency, then 575 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: they could make these benevolent, indisputable decisions for all of us, 576 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: the unwashed masses, right. 577 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: The hoy poloi, the peasants, the uneducated. 578 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 2: That's actually you and me and Ben according to them, 579 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 2: but not Paul. Paul's one of the Gosh, you can 580 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 2: just see the eliteness on his face. 581 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: He wears a tuxedo to work every day. 582 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: Oh it does look nice though. 583 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: And I have to say, Paul, I respect you because 584 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: I notice it's always a different tuxedo. You're not phoning 585 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: it in. So away from tuxedos and back to the elite. 586 00:37:53,200 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: Lipman is essentially arguing that the informed public does not exist. 587 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: The public is, despite what is on paper about democracy, 588 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: inherently incapable of doing what is right, doing what is smart, 589 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: and doing what is good for lack of a better word. 590 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: So instead he pictures this sort of technocracy, this leadership 591 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: of scientists and longtime politicos who will be able to 592 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: make the decisions on behalf of all the other people 593 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: in a country. And this means that not only would 594 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: you as a voter not have a say in something 595 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,479 Speaker 1: like something like a law about pollution or a law 596 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: about regulation or deregulation, but you also wouldn't have knowledge 597 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: of what was going on. So that's his idea that 598 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: the control of information, both gathering it and distributing it, 599 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: would be in the hands of this technocracy that would 600 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: be trusted to use scientific methods to figure out what 601 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: was really going on and make good decisions not just 602 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: about what's happening, but about who should receive specific messages. 603 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: He wanted to establish a semi governmental or quasi governmental 604 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: intelligence bureau that would evaluate information, supply it to other 605 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: elites to make decisions, and this bureau could also determine 606 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: which pieces of information should be transmitted through the mass 607 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: media to the public and which pieces of information people 608 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,800 Speaker 1: were better off not knowing. 609 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: And he would have gotten away with it if it 610 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 2: wasn't for those dastardly kids coming up with the old 611 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 2: Internet thing. 612 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and that Scooby Doo moment is appropriate here. 613 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: We should say that Walter Lippman later stepped away or 614 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: retreated from this elitist argument to a degree, but that 615 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: idea remains massively influential and not too unfamiliar historically when 616 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 1: we consider the past governments of earlier civilizations. Right, there's 617 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: a king and all the people that the king's ancestors 618 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: slept with and they're in charge. 619 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just the way it is, especially if they 620 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 2: have a divinity about them that God has somehow chosen them. 621 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: Right, Or there's a chieftain, same thing, or there's a 622 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: you know, there's religious leaders. Yeah, same thing. Here's where 623 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. Not only did Lippmann think that democracy 624 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: was more or less impossible in its current form, but 625 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: more and more people seem to in practice agree with him. 626 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 2: Today they do, and this is what we've spoken about 627 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: already on the show of Critics of both the theoretical 628 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: function of the current government and the practical function of 629 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: the government seem to often agree that the average voter, 630 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 2: you and me and everybody else doesn't know much but 631 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 2: is instead ruled by emotion and is prone to impulsive, 632 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 2: irrational decisions. Now irrational here would mean voter decisions are 633 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 2: actually working against the voter's self interest. What would you 634 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: should be voting for? There? Are a lot of examples 635 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: with that, especially when you talk about tax reform, and 636 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 2: then you know, the majority of the voters, especially in 637 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 2: the lower to the middle class, you know, not seeing 638 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: the benefits that may perhaps people in the upper classes 639 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: would see. And you have more voters in that lower class, 640 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 2: but you're still going to get a popular consent a 641 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 2: lot of times. 642 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: Right, of course. And this is not something that is 643 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: in any way exclusive to a political party, no, a 644 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: genre of a political party, or. 645 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 2: Or an issue or an issue. 646 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a This is a tendency that Lipman 647 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 1: sees and that the current people in charge, whatever that 648 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: time is and whatever, uh really, whatever post Lippmann ideology 649 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: you wanna grasp at, this is typically what people in 650 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: power will believe. And we can see this in action. 651 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: There's an interesting tendency here because later critics such as 652 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: William F. Buckley on the on the right side of 653 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: American politics were Noam Chomsky on the left side. Both 654 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: saw a special interest as the ultimate decision makers in 655 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: too many political discussions. Of course, Uh, these these two fellows, 656 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: these two guys would not agree with each other, and 657 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure they would disagree on exactly which organizations they 658 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: considered tyrannical special interest groups. But the point remains in 659 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: Chomsky's arguments, in particular, the media is is acting as 660 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: a street enforcer for what he sees as special interests. 661 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: This inextricably entwined system of government officials, heads of businesses, 662 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: large corporations, these powers behind the throne too often are 663 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: seen as the real voters. And that's unfortunately a common 664 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: thread that you will here discussed more and more in 665 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: recent years. These critics would argue these special interests, whatever 666 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: they may be, and special interest itself is sort of 667 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: an umbrella term, sort of a thought, thought terminating cliche. Right, 668 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: special interest, it's a bit of a boogeyman. But these 669 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: are the forces pushing the public in one direction or another, 670 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: framing issues in a way that benefits their own internal aims, 671 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: regardless of their effect on the common good for the 672 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: majority of US citizens. If they're common aims aligns with 673 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: the common good, then great, fine bully for us, Go team, 674 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: we've vultroned together. We've done our Captain Planet thing. This 675 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: law made the world a better place. But the problem 676 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: is that even if it acts against the public interest, 677 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: then okay, great for us go team, we Vultron together, 678 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,320 Speaker 1: and profits are going to rise. 679 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 2: Jeez. 680 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,879 Speaker 1: Optimists once imagined that the age of information was going 681 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: to be one of unending elucidation, a world in which 682 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: every single person had equal access to knowledge and equal 683 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: ability to act on that knowledge in a smart way 684 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,839 Speaker 1: toward a common good. But you can ask people from 685 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: the entire gamut of fields social scientists, statisticians, political pundits. 686 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: They are often now convinced this is not the case. 687 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, right now, we're in the sea change, some kind 688 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 2: of paradigm shift in the world of news coverage. You've 689 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 2: got broadcast in print falling behind as online news sources 690 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 2: begin their rise or continue to rise, including the news 691 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: aggregators like the reddits of the world. Social media platforms 692 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 2: are on the rise, where people are getting most of 693 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 2: their information, even news information, from these sources. The increasing 694 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 2: likelihood of the so called search bubble where you get 695 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 2: stuck and inside this world of news and algorithms that 696 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 2: just reinforce the views that you've already shared or liked 697 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 2: or submitted as your preferences. The emphasis then is not 698 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 2: on critical thought, but rather on the enjoyment of. 699 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: It all right, Like the goal is not to inform 700 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: you so much as it is to continue your time 701 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: on the device, site, on the platform, right, just stay 702 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: here longer. It's mentally or psychologically similar to some of 703 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: the tricks casinos. 704 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 2: Use, very very similar to that. 705 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: So that this idea is dangerous. And there's another point 706 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: like that here on the concept of whether or not 707 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: democracy is impossible. And it's something that you and i 708 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: Att have talked about at length before. I think we 709 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,320 Speaker 1: mentioned on air, but we talked about off air off 710 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: air often it's the concept of Dunbar's number. The gist 711 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 1: is that human brains seem to be hardwired to accept 712 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: only a certain number of other human beings around about 713 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:38,319 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty as other humans. The rest the 714 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,919 Speaker 1: other billions of people in the world are either functions 715 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:48,360 Speaker 1: or grouped into broad categories. You don't know a Canadian person, 716 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: that's not what you're one fifty. Well, guess what, everyone 717 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: who lives there is just one of the Canadians to you, 718 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: maybe divided by what you see as their gender or 719 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: what you see as their job. 720 00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 2: Right. 721 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: The problems here are readily apparent if you are a 722 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: propagandist like Lippmann or Breneese. There are so many other 723 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: people working today. You only have to convince the victim 724 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,919 Speaker 1: of your propaganda to stop thinking of some people as individuals, 725 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: make them think of people as categories. Convince them that 726 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: whatever decision you'd like them to make, whatever protests you 727 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: like them to attend, whatever vote you want them to cast, 728 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 1: or whatever product you want them to boycott, just convince 729 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: them it's in the best interest not of the world, 730 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,839 Speaker 1: not of the country, but of the one hundred and 731 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,280 Speaker 1: fifty people that they think of as real people. 732 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 733 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,239 Speaker 1: So the game is a little bit smaller and not 734 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,840 Speaker 1: as difficult as it might appear. And for the leader 735 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: of a country or some political arm this shows us 736 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,240 Speaker 1: that after a certain population size, it becomes very difficult 737 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: for any individual to function as a genuine representative of 738 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: the people they lead. Because if Dunbar's number turns out 739 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: to be true, and there should be more research on it, 740 00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: but if Dumbar's number holds up, then these leaders are 741 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: incapable of recognizing their constituents as human beings. 742 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 2: Yikes. And just to that end, if we want to 743 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 2: analyze perhaps what Walter Littman's Dunbar number would be if 744 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,240 Speaker 2: we're sticking with one point fifty. He was a member 745 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 2: of this place called the Metropolitan Club of the City 746 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 2: of Washington. There are Metropolitan clubs in several other places, 747 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,840 Speaker 2: but this one is very particular because it is in Washington, 748 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 2: d C. It's a private social club in close proximity 749 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,440 Speaker 2: to the White House. I'm going to read you a 750 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 2: quote here from their website. The Metropolitan Club is one 751 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 2: of Washington's oldest and most valued private institutions. Since its 752 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 2: founding in eighteen sixty three at the height of the 753 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 2: Civil War, by six Treasury Department officials, it has pursued 754 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 2: its primary goal of furthering literary improvement, mutual improvement, and 755 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 2: social purposes, whatever that means. Other members of this social 756 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 2: club included influential journalists, policymakers, and quote, nearly every US 757 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 2: president since Abraham Lincoln. Now this is the kind of 758 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 2: place where you pay an exorbitant amount of money every 759 00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 2: year and you get to go there and just talk 760 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 2: with your people. Who are you, know, at your stature, 761 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 2: I guess, at your place in life. And this is 762 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: where he would spend a lot of his time. And 763 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,279 Speaker 2: you can imagine that if these are your one hundred 764 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 2: and fifty people because there were I think twelve hundred 765 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,760 Speaker 2: active members around the time. Twelve to fourteen hundred members. 766 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 2: I mean, you can't go much higher than that. 767 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,800 Speaker 1: Sure, And then it seems from a biographical note there, 768 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 1: it seems pretty logical that he would say, you know, 769 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: who should be in charge the people I know. 770 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 2: The people from the Metropolitan Club. 771 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: It's not that different from most human reasoning. Who should 772 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: be in charge of the people that you know and 773 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: the people that you like that you have experienced firsthand? 774 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 2: Right, So. 775 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: We have to ask ourselves when we feel like we 776 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: are making a decision, especially if we're making a decision 777 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,000 Speaker 1: on something that would affect the course of our government, 778 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,800 Speaker 1: the course of our community, whatever. It doesn't have to 779 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: be I know this has been heavy on the political 780 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: aspects because of Lipman's background, but it doesn't have to 781 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: be that. You have to ask yourself how much, if 782 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: your mind and your actions are a car, how much 783 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: time are you at the wheel and how much time 784 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: are you writing shotgun? And when you are not driving, 785 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: who is This appears to be the stuff mass media 786 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: doesn't want you to know, at least according to Walter 787 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,320 Speaker 1: Lippman and again, he may seem obscure today, but like Brene's, 788 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:04,800 Speaker 1: his legacy remains relevant today. And to conclude today's episode, 789 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 1: we have to ask you where is democracy is a 790 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,440 Speaker 1: concept going? What trends do we see? Is the age 791 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 1: of spontaneous almost endless information helping or hurting what so 792 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: many people have praised and criticized for centuries now? And 793 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 1: where is the American public going? In specific? 794 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you think we are all distracted and disinterested 795 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,080 Speaker 2: to the point of not being able to make decisions 796 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 2: informed or otherwise for ourselves? Just maybe you personally? Do 797 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 2: you feel that way? I know sometimes I feel that way, 798 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,879 Speaker 2: depending on the day to hear. And that's the end 799 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,360 Speaker 2: of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or 800 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 2: questions about this episode, you can get into contact with 801 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,440 Speaker 2: us in a number of different ways. One of the 802 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,319 Speaker 2: best is to give us a call or no is 803 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 2: one eight three three st d WYTK. If you don't 804 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 2: want to do that, you can send us a good 805 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 2: old fashioned email. 806 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 807 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production 808 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,839 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 809 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,800 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.