1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: It's a big take from Bloomberg News and I heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: I'm West Pasova today. The UK has an online gambling problem, 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: and now it's heading to the US. Online gambling has 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: exploded in the UK, especially since the pandemic. Those catchy 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: gaining apps that entice you to play for hours right 6 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: on your phone. They've hooked millions of people and sometimes 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: drain their bank accounts. No surprise that online gambling addiction 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: is a big issue now. The US is loosening its 9 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: own online gambling laws, and with it comes concerns that 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: the problems gamblers in the UK are experiencing will soon 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: play out on an even larger scale in America. A 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: little later, I talked with two of my Bloomberg colleagues 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: who have written a deeply reported story on the pitfalls 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: of online gambling. But first a conversation with Stuart Kenny. 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: He made a fortune as a founder of Petty Power, 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: one of the UK's largest gambling companies, before he walked 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: away from it. He's now one of his industry's most 18 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: vocal critics. Stuart Kenny, thanks for being here. It's a 19 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: pleasure to be with your Wes Stewart. I wanted to 20 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: ask you why, after being so successful in building a 21 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: very large company, Petty Power, which is one of the 22 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: most recognizable companies in online gambling, you chose to step 23 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: away from it. In it was thirty nearly thirty years 24 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: I was on the board. I just thought I was 25 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: talking to myself that I thought that we were becoming 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: the new cigarettes. We were getting a stench due to 27 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: gambling addiction, and we were not taking the measures that 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: we were going down a route trying to hunt the 29 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: addicted or find people who are addicted and trying to 30 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: route them out the system. But in fact the product 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: needed to change and the safeguards need to be put 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: in place, and the board would have to accept we 33 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: would make less money, but we would have a sustainable business. 34 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: They'll go into the future. Since then, the stench from 35 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: gambling addiction has become larger and larger, and I don't 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: regret the decision, and more and more governments are now 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: seeing that they have to step in, and in fact 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: it is a government issue. It is really expecting publicly 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: owned companies to do their own to the police themselves. 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: It's too much of conflict. The governments need to step in, 41 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: step up to the plate and bring in restrictions. People 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: think of gambling at just one huge thing. I mean, 43 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: coming on having a flutter in the Grand National or 44 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: having a bet from the World Cup is not that addictive, 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: But getting onto the highly addictive online casino is highly addictive. 46 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: You had been in this industry for a long time. 47 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: What changed from the time you started to the time 48 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: you decided to leave that made you think you could 49 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: no longer do it? What change was probably online and 50 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: the rise of casino type products in net bedding shops. 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: The fixed starts bedding terminals became a scourge of the 52 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: high street. And why is that? In order to understand 53 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: addiction in gambling, the two elements that are foremost in 54 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: it are how quickly between investment and result? And how 55 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: quick can you repeat the dose? So you bet on 56 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: Donald Trump win the next presidential election, it is two 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: years away. Therefore, that is not an addictive product. You 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: have to wait two years, whereas you've been on this 59 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: spin of a coin and it's very quick. And the 60 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: fixed arts spending in terms of the government forced them 61 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: to put in a twenty second time delay between spins 62 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: because it were so addictive. But even that didn't solve it, 63 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: so you're really what we're looking for in anything is 64 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: to slow down the process so people have time to think. 65 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: Am I self distructing on the online casino? The whole 66 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: process needs to be slowed down because the online casino 67 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: is much faster than a normal to say. Now, now, 68 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: may I say I made huge mistakes. I should have 69 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: seen it earlier, and the finger can be pointed rightly 70 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: at me that I did not put my hand up 71 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: earlier and say, look, these concerns are real and we 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: need to do something about them. I campaigned against fixed 73 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: starts betting terminals coming into Ireland, but I should have 74 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: left the board at that point because fixed dots betting 75 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: terminals had no social benefit whatsoever. It was just an 76 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: highly addictive product. It was the crack cocaine of gambling. 77 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: And the truth is the online casino has become the 78 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: crack cocaine of gambling for people who aren't familiar with gambling. 79 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: Can you define what fixed odd betting is and why 80 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: it's so different and why you say it's it's such 81 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: a big problem. The fixed ads betting terminals were basically 82 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: putting fixed odds onto a casino product. Fixed odds are 83 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: you buy a lot of take that you don't know 84 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: what you win or what that's not fixed ots. You 85 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: bet Donald Trump for the next presidential election. It's a 86 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: round of a four to one shot. So you put 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: on a pound and you get back four pounds plus 88 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: your pound backs. You get five back. That's a fixed OTS. 89 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: So what they did was they made a casino product 90 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,119 Speaker 1: into a fixed odds betting product, and it became a 91 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: huge political hot potato. Bookmakers were opening up shops, specifically 92 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: in impoverished areas because the fixed odds betting terminals went 93 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: so well. So you can win a whole lot all 94 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: at once or lose a whole lot all at once. 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: Then if you lose, you want to do it again 96 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: to maybe win, and if you win, you want to 97 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: do it again to win. And so you just keep 98 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: going round and round, round and round. And there were 99 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: many things they could have brought in, such as every 100 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: five spins you had to cash out, take your money 101 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: start again. That would have given people time to think. 102 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: The whole point of this is giving people time to 103 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: think before they self destruct. And one of the things 104 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: I suppose that's especially problematic is that it's just on 105 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: our phones. It's with you all the time, so that 106 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: you don't actually have to be in one location. You 107 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: can gamble and be enticed to gamble no matter where 108 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: you are. That's right. Some of the measures that in 109 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: order to stop people self distructing is to make gambling 110 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: a little bit less accessible to everybody. You don't want 111 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: to take the fun away from gambling, because the vast 112 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: majority of people aren't gambling addicts. You want to make 113 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: the product available because that's what society wants, but you 114 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: don't want to make it so available that vulnerable people 115 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: get sucked in. So for the average population, it is 116 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: fine to be offered about. But if you make it 117 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 1: too accessible to children and too vulnerable people, it becomes 118 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: a problem. It will be a huge problem in the 119 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: United States. Why do you say that. What do you 120 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: see happening in the United States that makes you believe 121 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: then it is more a free for all society. It 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: is more a society that accepts some people fall through 123 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: the cracks. Europe is different. I was speaking to our 124 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 1: reporters who were working on this story, and they said 125 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: that one of the things that makes it so addictive 126 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: is that the minute you stop all of a sudden, 127 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: your inboxes flooded with offers for free spins, trying to 128 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: get you back in, offers to lure you back into 129 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: the casino. Is that something that you saw when you 130 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: were in the industry, though, and you were still at 131 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: Petty Power. Yes, and I put my hands up. I 132 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: should have been much more aware. Let people gamble if 133 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: they want a gamble. I'm not saying restrict but don't 134 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: suck the vulnerable in. We don't allow the cigarette industry 135 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: to start giving out free cigarettes on the street. We 136 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: don't allow the drinks industry. We brought restrictions in in 137 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: all societies because they've seen the damage. The gambling industry 138 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: has a danger of becoming the new cigarettes, and that 139 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: will make it harder for them to get executives. Can 140 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: you describe the day that you told your company, in 141 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: the company that you're a co founder of, that you 142 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: were walking away. I've been involved in the set up 143 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: of Party Power. I had been on the board for 144 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: twenty eight years, and I had made a decision that 145 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: there was a thing that rose in a board meeting 146 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: beforehand where they had pulled some advertising to do with 147 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: what they describe as responsible gambling. Now that's a euphemism. 148 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk call it what it is. It is hambling 149 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: addiction we're talking about. So they had been advertising very effective. 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: Take a break. It's available on YouTube. You can get 151 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: those ads. There were Australia with Sports pat and they 152 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: had made these wonderful ads. But they were so effective 153 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: that people were closing down their accounts. Well, I thought 154 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: that was the whole point of the exercise. And they 155 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: said that they were too effective and they were pulling 156 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: them and they muttered something about that people were opening 157 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: up with other people, and I said, well, look, if 158 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: that's the journey that they need to make before they 159 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: become aware that they have a problem, so be it. 160 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: And I was the only one who spoke up against 161 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: pulling these ads. And then I knew, look, I had 162 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: to speak to myself and say clearly, I either be 163 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: a completely propriate that they are rather than just been 164 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: a minor hypocrite if I continue on. And I made 165 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: my decision to go. So I prepared for the next 166 00:09:54,520 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: board meeting and said I was going. It's so you've 167 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: made a lot of money off the gambling industry. Now 168 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: that you are raising questions about it, raising awareness about it. 169 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: Are you using your own money to sort of fund 170 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: anti gambling addiction treatment or initiatives? I have funded charities 171 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: to do with gambling addiction. In fact, some of them 172 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: refused to take my money on the basis that the 173 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: money is tainted. What they asked me to do rather 174 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: than put the money up front. Now there some of 175 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: them I did and I will continue to give money to, 176 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: but they asked me to speak out. Stewart Kenny, thanks 177 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: so much for taking the time to talk to me. 178 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: West there was a plasure. Thank you after the break. 179 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: How did amine gambling come to this? I'm here with 180 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: two colleagues from London, Gavin Inches, an investigative reporter for 181 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: a Bloomberg and Harry Wilson is a finance reporter. Thanks 182 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: so much for being here. Thank you, Thanks for having 183 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: us Gavin and Harry. You have written this story about 184 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: what you have called Written's gambling nightmare. For those of 185 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: us who weren't familiar with what's happening in the UK 186 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: and gambling, could you tell us sure? So, there's been 187 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: a sort of explosive growth of online betting in the 188 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: UK in the last decade, particularly habit forming casino games 189 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: like slot machines and roulette, sort of virtual casinos, and 190 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: these are extremely lucrative games for gambling companies, but not 191 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: for for punters who are losing on average about fourteen 192 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: billion pounds a year I think it was over the 193 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: last four or five years. And when we say explosive 194 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: like that, the growth in these games, that's gone from 195 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: twenty seven million pounds in twenty fourteen to more than 196 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: four billion pounds last year. And so this is online gambling. 197 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: This isn't going down in the corner to the little 198 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: gambling shower. We are going to a formal casino. But 199 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: this is all taking place in apps that you use 200 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: on your phone, in your computer. Yeah, that's absolutely right. 201 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: This is is something very different to your traditional idea 202 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: of what gambling might take. Certainly in the UK, the 203 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: long traditional view of gambling was you had a store 204 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: on a high street which men emerged from smoking cigarettes, 205 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: and you went inside there and it was dimly lit. 206 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't a particularly sort of pleasant place to go, 207 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: and but people went there, you know, were you'd have 208 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: to be a sort of a commissed gambler. And what's 209 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: happened in I guess the last ten fifteen years is 210 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: that's completely changed. The advance of smartphones has meant that 211 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: people now have a little casino in their pocket, and 212 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: anyone with an app store with a bank account can 213 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: open up a gambling accounts and can begin gambling away 214 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: on all these variety of casino games that have all 215 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: these extraordinary names, and it's a hugely lucrative business for 216 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: for the gambling industry. So when gambling moved from these 217 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: little shops where you'd have to go online, was there 218 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: a rush of companies movie in to capture this new audience. 219 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: I think there was a realization quite early on that 220 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: online was going to be the new frontier for for gambling. 221 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: They were trying to sort of destigmatize gambling and make 222 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: it more accessible to everybody. Critics would say that the 223 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: games that they've designed are intentionally habit forming. One of 224 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: the big issues that we came across when we talked 225 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: to gambling addicts and reformed gambling addicts was the extent 226 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: to which these gambling companies have a hold of people, 227 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 1: unlike any other kind of industriver ever come across. The 228 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: v I P s and gambling are the biggest losers, 229 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: so the more you lose, the more important you are 230 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: to the gambling company, the more they lavish entertainment on 231 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: new free flights, you know, tickets to sporting games, all 232 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the rest of it, because you're a valuable customer. We 233 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: spoke to people where you know they try and stop gambling, 234 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: and after a day, a couple of days, you know, 235 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: they would be deluged with emails, phone calls, text from 236 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: their v I P manager, you know, asking whether they 237 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: are okay, you know, whether they had provide them with 238 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: some tips for new bets and and giving them free 239 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: spins and the casinos and things like that, And it 240 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: doesn't take much for a gowning addict to succumb again 241 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: to his addiction and be brilled back in herry. Are 242 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: they keeping close track of each of the users and 243 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: how long they're on and what they're winning or losing. 244 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: You can't really under estimate how much information they have 245 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: on gamblers. So from people we've spoken to, certainly one 246 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: of the points made to us is that pretty much 247 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: from your first couple of bets, a gambling company has 248 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: a very good idea of how good a client you 249 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: are going to be to them over your life, and 250 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: only literally takes a few goes, a few spins, and 251 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: they can pretty much predict whether you're going to be 252 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: a massive loser for them, which is great, or someone 253 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: who's going to be a less lucrative clients. The amount 254 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: of analytics that they have is incredible. So you talking 255 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: about incredibly sophisticated technology platforms here that are tracking is 256 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: actually what people are doing, what they're gambling on, the 257 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: gambling patterns in a way they know the gambler better 258 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: than the gambler knows themselves. And you can see these 259 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: patterns when when someone stops gambling for a day or two, 260 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: they all know is actually how to learn someone Back 261 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: in very one of the things you write is that 262 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: there has been an increase in the number of children 263 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: and teenagers who are gambling, spending and losing a lot 264 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: of money on these apps. Yeah, and that that that 265 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: kind of speaks to the way the gambling industry has 266 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: has changed, right. I mean, if you think in the past, obviously, 267 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: going back to our stereotypical drab gambling store, right, it 268 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: would be be a lot easier to spot. And with 269 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: with the way that gambling has gone online, that that's 270 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: become more difficult On top of that, if you look 271 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: at the games, particularly these casino games, they do look 272 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: very childish. The real big money spinner now for for 273 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: gambling companies are things that look basically like the kind 274 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: of games I used to play as a kid in 275 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: the eighties. The industry would obviously say that they don't 276 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: aim these games at children, that they're all obviously you 277 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: have to be over eight teens to use them, But 278 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: you just look at them, they don't. They don't look 279 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: like something that's aimed as a sort of a grain adult. 280 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: There have been some attempts to help people break their 281 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: addition to using these apps and losing a lot of money. 282 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: You read about one called gam stop. What exactly is there? So? 283 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: Gam Stop is a national self exclusion tool which all 284 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: of the UK licensed gambling companies have to sign up 285 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: to and in sorry, if you sign up to gaun 286 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: stop and you say I don't want to gamble for 287 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: a year or two years or three years, then you 288 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: are not able to access any of the other UK 289 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: registered gambling sites to put down a bet. Lots of 290 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: gamblers have said that that has been a game changer 291 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: for them. But if you do want to get around it, 292 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: there are plenty of websites out there that advise people 293 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: on how you can do that, so it's it's far 294 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: from fool proof, and it also doesn't cover the entire market. 295 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: There are messenger based gambling companies that aren't covered by 296 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: gam stop. When you went to the companies that run 297 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: these apps, what did they say about how they upgrade 298 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: about the problem of gambling addiction and what they see 299 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: as their own responsibility if anything, in all of this. 300 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: A spokeswoman for Flutter Entertainment, the parent company of paddy Power, 301 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: said the firm closed its v I P scheme and 302 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: reduced the revenue coming from its highest spending customers by 303 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: fifty The Flutter spokeswoman said the firm had quote invested 304 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: significantly end quote in its safer gambling capabilities in recent years. 305 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: A spokesman for gam stop said it has always acknowledged 306 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: that quote no system can ever be a hundred percent 307 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: infallible end quote. The spokesman said that gam stop had 308 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: helped three hundred and thirty thousand people to self exclude 309 00:17:55,119 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: since A Gambling Commission spokesman said that it would quote 310 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: assess whether the industry's response to the challenge has delivered 311 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: the right outcomes end quote. In the last few years, 312 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: the Gambling Commission has fined quite a lot of gambling companies, 313 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: quite a lot of money, millions of pounds for various 314 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: failings around not doing enough to detect gambling addicts and 315 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: not doing enough in terms of a m L checks 316 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: and source of wealth checks. Where does a m L 317 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: anti money laundering? Gavin? You right that the UK is 318 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: seeing suicides that are connected to gambling addictions. Yeah, that's right. 319 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: That was one of the most shocking things I think 320 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: for us was just the number of people who were 321 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: killing themselves each year linked to their gambling addiction. So 322 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: government statistics put it around four hundred and nine suicides 323 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: a year that can be directly linked to gambling addiction. 324 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: This is definitely a a mail focus issued by farther. 325 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: Vast majority of problem gamblings and gambling suicides are younger men. 326 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: I think that's probably one of the reasons why this 327 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: has certainly become such a front page issue in the 328 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: UK is that you have these these awful stories of 329 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: of young men who have become addicted to these online 330 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: casino games and lost vast amounts of money that they 331 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: either don't have all that they've stolen to fund their 332 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: gambling addictions. So that raises the question, what, if anything, 333 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: is the UK government trying to do to get hold 334 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: of this and help people who are you know, gambling 335 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: away are their money. For the most part, successive UK 336 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: governments have done very little to reign in the excesses 337 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: of the gambling industry. Way is that this massive booming 338 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: in in online gaming can all be traced back to 339 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: the Gambling Act of two thousand and five, which is 340 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: the existing legislation that covers gambling, and you know, it's 341 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: pre smart own legislation at the time, it made us 342 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: one of the most deregulated major gambling markets in the world, 343 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: and so it couldn't really foresee this huge boom in 344 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: online gaming, and the gambling companies have been making hay 345 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: taking advantage of that kind of lack of regulatory foresight 346 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: ever since. And why is that? Why wouldn't the government 347 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: wanted to be doing something about this? Well, there's a 348 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: very close relationship historically between various UK governments and the 349 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: gambling industry. The gambling industry spends a lot of money 350 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: on hospitality on UK politicians. There are several politicians who 351 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: are paid to give speeches or provide advice for gambling companies. 352 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: There are many sitting members of the House of Lords 353 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: who have positions on the boards of gambling companies, and 354 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: they have a very effective, aggressive lobbying arm to the 355 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: industry that has managed to persuade successive governments to largely 356 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: leave them alone. When we come back the UK's gambling 357 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: craze heads for the U S Harry and Gavin, you've 358 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: spoken about all the problems associated with gambling in the 359 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: UK and the rise of these online sites and apps. 360 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: In the US, we're also starting to see an increase 361 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: in online gambling. I know that I'm just always surprised 362 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: at how many advertisements are for it on the radio 363 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: that I come across online. It seems like more than 364 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: ever before. Do you first see a similar problems heading 365 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: across the ocean toward the US. Pretty much all the 366 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: UK and European gambling companies are really falling over themselves 367 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: to to enter the S market because the European market 368 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: has become so saturated. So as the majority of US 369 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: states have liberalized the gambling laws in the last few years, 370 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: you know, there's already a market I think of more 371 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: than one hundred million people kind of waiting to be 372 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: to be tapped in the in the US. And while 373 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: at the minute most of that's online gambling is is 374 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: limited to sports bedding in states where it's legal, you know, 375 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: you do see these companies pitching online casino games to 376 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: sports spellers by offering them these these free spins, and 377 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: that's a big worry for for critics of the industry 378 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: who argue that, you know, these casino games are the 379 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: really addictive ones, and so you will see the same 380 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: problems that have happened in the UK happening in in 381 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: the US. And there's an important distinction I think between 382 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: the US and the UK as well, because there isn't 383 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: one regulator for the for the gambling industry in the US. 384 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: There's there's lots of them, each different state. Believe is 385 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: I think over oversights spread amongst like a patchwork of 386 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: state and tribal governments, some of whom are you know, 387 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: They've been described by colleagues of ours as captives of 388 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: the industry who don't necessarily understand the new technology as 389 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: well as they might. Where are we seeing gambling really 390 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: take off in the US right now. I mean, I 391 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: think one of the real gold rush states at the 392 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: moment is New York. And certainly when we were talking 393 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: to people, one of the places that's seen, as I 394 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: guess as the elder rado currently for for gambling companies 395 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: right is New York. And despite state taxes being incredibly 396 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: high on gambling revenues, you've got gambling companies literally queuing 397 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: up to to get one of these licenses because it's 398 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: considered so so lucrative a market. So I think, what 399 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: what you've you've got are these incredibly well funded, sophisticated 400 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: companies that see these opportunities in a in a liberalizing market. 401 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: And my guess is obviously the the US will probably 402 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: go down the same road as the UK if it's 403 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: not careful. Talking to Harry's point on the New York. 404 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: So the tax rate there is, which obviously is incredibly high, 405 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: and gambling earnings, yeah, on gross gambling revenue, and yet 406 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: gross gaming revenue rather and yet as Harry says, there's 407 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: still this cue going out the door. So it just 408 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: shows how profitable they see that that business as being. 409 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: Since January, gambling companies have signed up one point five 410 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: million accounts from one point one million customers, almost of 411 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: them new too regulated sports betting, and just in that 412 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 1: first month alone, in that January, one point seven billion 413 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: dollars was waged on sports games online. In New York 414 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: Gavin In the US, the Supreme Court ruled in big 415 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: case that opened the door for more of this sort 416 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: of betting. Can you describe what happened? Basically the allowed 417 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: online gambling or or made online gambling legal on a 418 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: state by state basis. Breaking news is Supreme Court this 419 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: morning striking down the federal ban on sports betting. Now 420 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: it leaves it up to the stat and that really 421 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: opened the door to a massive influx of gambling companies 422 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: into the US and in many of the states. Now 423 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: you are not only able to do sports betting online, 424 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: but you can also do casino game betting online as well. 425 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: And so that that led to a lot of states 426 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: that before didn't do this now seeing a great increase 427 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: in the number of gamblers and gambling sites catering to them. Yeah, 428 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: there's been an explosion of gambling sites in the US 429 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: and in the online gambling revenues. And if you think 430 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: about it, it's not so long ago that some of 431 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: the executives of some UK listed gambling companies were having 432 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: to avoid going to US because of cases they're under 433 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: threat of arrest. So it's really is quite a substantial 434 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: turnaround in in terms of the openness of the US 435 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: to to um online gampling. Gavin Finch and Harry Wilson, 436 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking to me today. Thank you, 437 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: thanks for having us. You can read Gavin Finches and 438 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: Harry Wilson's online gambling story at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks 439 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's 440 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: the daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For 441 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: more shows from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 442 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: Radio app podcast or wherever you listen. Read today's story 443 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: and subscribe to our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com 444 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: slash Big Take, and we'd love to hear from you. 445 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: Email us with questions or comments to Big Take at 446 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take 447 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our 448 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: producer is Frederica Romaniello. Our associate user is zenib Sidiki, 449 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: with additional production support from Rebecca Chassan and Sam Gabauer. 450 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: Raphael M. Seeley is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. 451 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another big take.