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Speaker 1: This is the Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Kelly, and I'm Mike Lynch and I'm Michael Barr.

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Speaker 1: And this is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast where

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Speaker 1: we explore the big money issues in the world of sports.

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Speaker 1: And there are a few issues bigger right now than

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Speaker 1: who gets paid what. One big case playing out right

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Speaker 1: now that we've kept a close eye on is the

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Speaker 1: issue around the US women's national soccer team, how they're treated,

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Speaker 1: how they're paid. There has been a settlement. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk more about it this week, following a conversation

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Speaker 1: we had last week. Last week we spoke with Cardel Spengler.

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Speaker 1: She's a partner at Winston and Strawn. That's the law

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Speaker 1: firm that's representing the US women's national soccer team. This week,

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Speaker 1: we are very happy to speak with Jamie Wine. She's

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Speaker 1: a partner at Lathaman Watkins in New York and they

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Speaker 1: are representing US soccer. Jamie, really good to have you

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Speaker 1: on the show. As we were getting to know each

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Speaker 1: other a little bit before we came on, just pointing

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Speaker 1: out this is a massive story. It's a massive issue,

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Speaker 1: and and I guess I would start by saying, where

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Speaker 1: are we right now? Because there's a lot of back

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Speaker 1: and forth. There's a lot been written and talked about.

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Speaker 1: There is a tentative settlement at least on part of it.

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Speaker 1: But bring us up to speed. Great and thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me today. I really appreciate it. Um. Where we

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Speaker 1: are today is that the US um Soccer and the

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Speaker 1: women's national team players have reached a settlement on the

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Speaker 1: working conditions claims that the women's national team brought. It's

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Speaker 1: a part of their case. It's not the equal pay

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Speaker 1: part of their case, and I'm sure that we'll get

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Speaker 1: to that in a moment. But it has to do with,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to get a better equality in terms

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Speaker 1: of working conditions for the men's and women's team. And

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Speaker 1: it's an important step, uh in a welcome moment for

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Speaker 1: both US Soccer and the women's national team. I believe

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Speaker 1: what it what it shows is action towards a better

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Speaker 1: relationship between the two and that we can really work

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Speaker 1: together for the for the benefit of everybody. It's also

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Speaker 1: reflective of the commitment of the new leadership at US

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Speaker 1: Soccer to find a new way forward, in a positive

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Speaker 1: way forward with the women's national team. And I'll get

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Speaker 1: onto the rest of the soup, but just one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to pause on here in terms of the

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Speaker 1: working conditions, you know, what it did was really formalize

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Speaker 1: US Soccer's longstanding equitable approach UM to make sure that

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Speaker 1: both the women's team and the men's team are receiving

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Speaker 1: the best in class off field support UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: to provide them with the most opportunity to succeed on

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Speaker 1: the field. And we were really happy that we were

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Speaker 1: able to find a structured way to continue to do

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Speaker 1: that so that both teams get UM equitable support and

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Speaker 1: and really UM make them able to succeed on the field,

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Speaker 1: you know, as we've certainly seen the women's team doing

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Speaker 1: in such great fashion over the last few years UM

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Speaker 1: in terms of the equal pay and I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: dive into that more that part. We got a great

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Speaker 1: decision in May that I'd be happy to chat about

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Speaker 1: UM that actually UM denied the women's attempts to go

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Speaker 1: to trial on the quill pay claims, and we anticipate

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Speaker 1: that the women now will appeal that decision to the

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Speaker 1: higher courts UM, and that will play out in the

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Speaker 1: court system. There well, let's talk about that the decision

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Speaker 1: you've got in May. How much of that was an

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Speaker 1: impact in this recent decision that just came about. You

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Speaker 1: know that that decision was incredibly important as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, everybody has heard about the women's team fight

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Speaker 1: for equal pay, and you know, in concept everybody would

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Speaker 1: support that, we would support that, they support that, Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's really important to focus on what

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Speaker 1: happened in that ruling. The judge looked at the at

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Speaker 1: the women's team claim and he found a few things.

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Speaker 1: First of all, very importantly, he found that US Soccer

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Speaker 1: in fact has been paying the women equal and in fact,

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Speaker 1: he said, um, they have been paying the women more

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Speaker 1: over the last few years than the men. So that's

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Speaker 1: really important. He looked at it. He looked at what

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Speaker 1: US Soccer was paying in them from matches it controls,

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Speaker 1: and he said, both in the aggregate and on a

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Speaker 1: per game basis, the women in fact have been paid

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Speaker 1: more than the men. So that was number one. Number two,

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Speaker 1: he looked at the contract structures for the men and

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Speaker 1: the women's team, which which do differ, um, And just

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Speaker 1: the way that they are they are they are formed, um,

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Speaker 1: And he said and found, based on the evidence that

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Speaker 1: we provided that the women in fact chose a different

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Speaker 1: contract structure from the men. They chose a structure that

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Speaker 1: provides them more stability in terms of the compensation that

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Speaker 1: they get um so they get a stable salary. They

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Speaker 1: do get bonuses for when they play and they win.

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Speaker 1: They're not as high as the bonuses that the men

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Speaker 1: get when they play and win. But they chose stability

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Speaker 1: in terms of a salary, benefits and other things that

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Speaker 1: they get that the men don't get. The men have

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Speaker 1: much more of a high risk, high reward structure where

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Speaker 1: they get paid high bonuses when they appear and when

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Speaker 1: they play, but they don't and win, but they don't

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Speaker 1: otherwise get any of the stability that the women's contract has.

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Speaker 1: And the judge found that the women made that choice

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Speaker 1: in terms of picking that structure, and they can't go

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Speaker 1: back now retroactively and say, oh, we wish we had

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Speaker 1: the men's contract structure. So those are two important fundamental

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Speaker 1: bases of that decision. To keep in mind now in

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Speaker 1: terms of the settlement, the current settlement with the women,

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Speaker 1: what I would say is, even in light of that opinion,

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Speaker 1: Women's Soccer Us Soccer has always supported the women's game.

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Speaker 1: Wants to work in unison and arm in arm with

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Speaker 1: the women to promote the game and really to work

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Speaker 1: together um, both to make sure they're happy within the

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Speaker 1: confines of what US Soccer is providing them, but also

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Speaker 1: to really go after um you know, places where there

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Speaker 1: where there is some disparity. So, for example, one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest disparities and pay that the women and men

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Speaker 1: have is a result of FIFA prize money. FIFA prize

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Speaker 1: money is controlled by FIFA, not by US Soccer, and

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Speaker 1: so there is a big differential there when you look

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Speaker 1: at what women's teams get when they win the World

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Speaker 1: Cup versus what men's teams get, and so we would

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Speaker 1: like to work together with the women's team to make

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Speaker 1: that disparity less or make it not at all, and

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Speaker 1: and advocate with FIFA to improve prize money. We're happy

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Speaker 1: to work with the women's team to try to get

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Speaker 1: more sponsorship into soccer. And so I think what the

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Speaker 1: recent settlement did was show that when we work together

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Speaker 1: as opposed to fighting one another, we can really accomplish

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Speaker 1: a lot. And so I'm hopeful that the recent settlement

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Speaker 1: will allow us to move forward and help promote the

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Speaker 1: women's game, um and get equality, you know, all around

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Speaker 1: for the women. So Hi, Jamie, it's Mike Lynch up

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Speaker 1: here in your hometown of Boston. So why don't the

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Speaker 1: women take up this case with FIFA instead of you

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Speaker 1: with soccer? You know, I think that's probably a question

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Speaker 1: better ask to the to the women's team. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're we're responding to the lawsuit that they filed against

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Speaker 1: US Soccer. Um. But I'm sure they have their own reasons, um,

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Speaker 1: And again, whatever they are, we have advocated with FIFA

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Speaker 1: and would be happy to continue to advocate with FIFA

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Speaker 1: along with the women to improve that prize money. You know, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: I do wonder. I mean, you have worked on a

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Speaker 1: lot of high profile cases, high octane cases in many ways.

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Speaker 1: Clearly there's a public element to this, there's a perception

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Speaker 1: element to this. We talked about that with Cardel Spengler

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Speaker 1: as well, and obviously, as I mentioned, all of us

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Speaker 1: have been following this very closely. How do you, as

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Speaker 1: a lawyer in this case and working with US Soccer,

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Speaker 1: how do you navigate that that aspect of it and

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Speaker 1: sort of keep your eye on the prize as it were,

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Speaker 1: make sure that you're sort of going through the right

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Speaker 1: legal issues when there is a lot of candidly sort

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Speaker 1: of noise about this on either side. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: a great question because that's been you know, a large

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Speaker 1: part of what a lot of us have focused on

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Speaker 1: in dealing with this litigation. You know, we're in a

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Speaker 1: tough position where the women's team, you know, who we

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Speaker 1: hugely support and agree with the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: or the you know, best women's team and in fact,

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Speaker 1: one of the best just teams period out there in

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Speaker 1: the world. But we're in this odd position where we

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Speaker 1: are opposite one another in a legal case. We don't

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Speaker 1: want to be opposite them. We want to work together

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Speaker 1: with them, and so we both need to um be

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Speaker 1: out there publicly supporting them, which we are publicly supporting

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Speaker 1: their their fight, um, you know, whether it's with FIFA

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Speaker 1: wanting to get better prize money, whether they're trying to

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Speaker 1: get more sponsorship money, whether they're just trying to you know, um,

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Speaker 1: improve the popularity of the women's game around the world.

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Speaker 1: We want to be arm in arm with them. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, we do have to counter some of

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Speaker 1: the misinformation that's out there. So, like I said, people

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Speaker 1: just here, you know, it's very easy to hear somebody say, hey,

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Speaker 1: we want equal pay. Of course everybody, hopefully everybody is

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Speaker 1: going to agree with that. We certainly agree with that. UM.

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Speaker 1: We want the women to be paid equitably. We don't

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Speaker 1: want them to be discriminated against. UM. But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to how is US Soccer treating the women, there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of misinformation out there and we've tried

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Speaker 1: to certainly correct that in the legal record, and we've

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Speaker 1: been successful there with the judgment in May you know,

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Speaker 1: and we've tried to correct that to a certain extent

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Speaker 1: in the in the public record, you know, without going

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Speaker 1: after and attacking the women's players, because we don't want

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Speaker 1: to do that, but making it clear that in terms

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Speaker 1: of what US Soccer controls and the matches that it controls,

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Speaker 1: that we actually have been paying the women more than

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Speaker 1: the men. Uh. That's been a really important message to

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Speaker 1: get out there so that people understand that US Soccer

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Speaker 1: isn't doing anything wrong here. There are other things outside

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Speaker 1: of US Soccer's control that people could hope we're different,

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Speaker 1: but from what US Soccer is doing, we don't think

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Speaker 1: we've done anything wrong and we think that the decision

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Speaker 1: it may really vindicates us. Well, let's talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the misinformation points that you mentioned. What in your

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Speaker 1: mind are some of the misinformation pieces out there that

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Speaker 1: you would like to correct. So you know, I think

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Speaker 1: the biggest is just Um, when people hear what the

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Speaker 1: women are saying about this legal battle, I think the

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Speaker 1: public perception is that, in fact US Soccer is paying

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Speaker 1: the women less, and that's the biggest piece. That's just

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Speaker 1: not true. Um, we are not paying the women less.

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Speaker 1: They have made more than the men, as I have

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Speaker 1: said over the last several years at the court, examined

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Speaker 1: in the court record, um, and also to understand better, uh,

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Speaker 1: the reasons why there are differences in contract structures between

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Speaker 1: and pay structures between the men and the women, and

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Speaker 1: that that was a choice that was made by the

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Speaker 1: women's team in their collective bargaining process when they wanted stability,

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Speaker 1: and that stability is really important. So just to break

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Speaker 1: that down a bit, the women get a salary each year.

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Speaker 1: The women get paid every two weeks regardless of whether

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Speaker 1: they play or not. So if they don't play for

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Speaker 1: injury or for any other reason, they still get paid. Um,

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Speaker 1: they get a number of health benefits that the men

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Speaker 1: don't get. UM, they still get bonuses for when they

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Speaker 1: win and have success. Now, the men, as I said,

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Speaker 1: don't have any of that stability. They don't have salaries.

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Speaker 1: They literally just have a pay for play type structure.

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Speaker 1: So if they show up and play, and if they

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Speaker 1: show up and they play and they win, they get

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Speaker 1: paid and they get paid better if they win. If

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Speaker 1: they don't show up for whatever reason, injury or otherwise,

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Speaker 1: they don't get paid at all. And just to make

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Speaker 1: this really stark in the in the current environment, you know,

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Speaker 1: this really played out in with the COVID situation. So

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Speaker 1: as you all know, you know most of the games

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Speaker 1: were canceled in because of the pandemic. The men literally

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Speaker 1: made nothing from US Soccer if they didn't play. The women,

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Speaker 1: while not playing, still got their salaries through the entirety

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Speaker 1: of still got a paycheck every two weeks. And so

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Speaker 1: you can really see how these choices can play out

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Speaker 1: to a huge benefit for the women. And that's the

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Speaker 1: precise reason that they chose that structure. During their CBA negotiations, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: there was a tweet from President elect Joe Biden saying

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Speaker 1: that the U. S Circle have to go elsewhere for

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Speaker 1: World Cup funding if the equal pay thing isn't settled.

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Speaker 1: But that's not accurate. Is that correct? Well, what's not

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Speaker 1: accurate is that UM. US Soccer doesn't receive federal funding.

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Speaker 1: US Soccer is a nonprofit. UM. It does not receive

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Speaker 1: any funding from the federal government. UM it receives funding elsewhere,

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Speaker 1: including through sponsorships, broadcasting, UH, private donations, things like that,

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Speaker 1: but not from the federal government. So that's a little

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Speaker 1: piece of misinformation that that's out there as well. But

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Speaker 1: you know, President elect Biden is a very smart man,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure he is well intentioned, just like many

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Speaker 1: are when they hear about the women's fight for equal pay.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would hope that we would have an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to sit down and talk with him and help

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Speaker 1: UM correct the record for him and let him know

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Speaker 1: how supportive US Soccer has been for the women's team

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Speaker 1: and the women's game for a long time now, and

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Speaker 1: again that we could work together with him on any

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Speaker 1: issues that still need rectifying. But hopefully he'll see that

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Speaker 1: US Soccer should not be the targeting here, Jamie, I

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Speaker 1: want to dig a little deeper on the corporate side

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Speaker 1: the business of sports when we talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: kind of the corporate side of this. I want to

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Speaker 1: play just a little bit of our interview with Cardl

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Speaker 1: Spengler last week, because she talked about how that figures

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Speaker 1: in check it Out. We actually spent a little time

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Speaker 1: with a couple of the sponsors in the litigation. We

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Speaker 1: actually deposed a couple of the sponsors, and they were

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Speaker 1: important depositions to the extent that anyone was claiming that

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Speaker 1: the women do not bring equal value, that sponsors are

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Speaker 1: not interested in a sponsoring only the women's team, that

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Speaker 1: if they're really basically drafting off of the men's team,

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Speaker 1: that was late to waste. That the sponsors are very

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Speaker 1: interested in the women's team in particular, and because of that,

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Speaker 1: So taking now this outside of the legal piece of it,

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Speaker 1: there's a role I think for them to play in

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Speaker 1: saying to US Soccer that, you know, equal pay, equal

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Speaker 1: working conditions are so important to them as sponsors that

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Speaker 1: if that is not achieved by US Soccer, that there

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Speaker 1: could be some ramifications. So Jamie, it raises the whole

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Speaker 1: host of questions. But and it actually takes me at

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Speaker 1: least in a slightly different direction, which is understanding how

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Speaker 1: the women and the men are paid. You talked about

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Speaker 1: the different contract structures, but a lot of this also

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Speaker 1: has to do and keep me honest here with the

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Speaker 1: structure of the games beyond the national teams and the

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Speaker 1: professional leagues that the men and the women play in.

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Speaker 1: That has to figure into this as well, in addition

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Speaker 1: to sort of the corporate side, because we know that

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Speaker 1: there's a huge amount of enthusiasm for the national team,

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Speaker 1: but there isn't the financial support for the professional leagues

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Speaker 1: for women the way there is for the men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and let me let me address both aspects of that.

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Speaker 1: First of all, in terms of sponsor, um, we would

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Speaker 1: welcome more sponsorship just as much as the women's team

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Speaker 1: would welcome it. So um, you know, we're what's one

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Speaker 1: thing you guys definitely agree on, right absolutely, you know. Now,

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Speaker 1: one thing to focus on though, is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: US Soccer does have to consider not only the women's

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Speaker 1: team and the men's team, but they have a lot

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Speaker 1: of other constituents and as you all may know, US

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Speaker 1: Soccer has a whole host of youth teams that its supports,

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Speaker 1: It has um UH teams, a parent teams that it supports.

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Speaker 1: It has a bunch of members around the country who

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Speaker 1: organized youth soccer, you know, all over the country and

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Speaker 1: and and help really you know, millions of kids play

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Speaker 1: soccer and just grow the development of the sport. And

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Speaker 1: so any money that comes into US Soccer and comes

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Speaker 1: into the crest as we like to refer to, it

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Speaker 1: has to go to support all of those programs, you know,

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Speaker 1: and not just one team or another team, or even

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Speaker 1: not just both senior national teams. So that's that's one

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Speaker 1: important thing to keep in mind in terms of the

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Speaker 1: sponsorship money. Um But in terms of the leagues, you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct that the men's Professional League traditionally has had

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Speaker 1: more corporate sponsorship support than the women's National League. And

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Speaker 1: that's frankly another area where US Soccer has come in

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Speaker 1: to really support the women's game. US Soccer has from

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Speaker 1: the beginning financially supported in a very substantial way the

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Speaker 1: Women's Professional Soccer League so that there can be a

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Speaker 1: professional league in the United States that women can play

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Speaker 1: in and that they don't have to go outside of

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Speaker 1: the US for those opportunities. So we're very proud of

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Speaker 1: that support that we've given the women's league, and it's

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Speaker 1: been very successful with that financial backing from US Soccer,

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Speaker 1: but we would absolutely love to see, you know, more

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Speaker 1: support from from the corporate world for that, just as

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Speaker 1: much as the women's national players would like to see that.

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Speaker 1: I did not know this until I was reading up

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Speaker 1: on this. Uh At. Yes, there are issues here in

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Speaker 1: the United States when it comes to the paid discrepancy

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Speaker 1: between men and women. But when you go overseas and

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Speaker 1: you see some of that discrepancy, and I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: what the men are that they aren't earning as much,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know. Like, for instance, the France men's team,

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Speaker 1: they won the World Cup in twenty eighteen, but they

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Speaker 1: got about thirty of the thirty eight million I break

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Speaker 1: it down, it's like about three thousand dollars per player,

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Speaker 1: and then the other went to the federation to go

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Speaker 1: towards development. So I'm wondering, what can the women's US

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Speaker 1: team and the men's US team due to help the

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Speaker 1: paid discrepancy around the world. Yeah, well, you know, hopefully

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Speaker 1: you know, all the advocacy that they're doing, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the pay issues generally, can can help the game

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Speaker 1: around the world, can help women soccer around the world,

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Speaker 1: and and can help you know, the pay for for

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Speaker 1: men and women where it's needed around the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think all of the soccer players in the US

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Speaker 1: are lucky, um that US Soccer has been able to

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Speaker 1: support them so well. I think both the US men's

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Speaker 1: team in the US women's team are among the highest

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Speaker 1: paid teams in the world. You mentioned the FIFA prize

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Speaker 1: money and how much of that actually ends up in

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Speaker 1: the pockets of the players. You know, we're very happy

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Speaker 1: and pleased to say that we pay out most of

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Speaker 1: that money to our players. The women, in fact, were

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Speaker 1: paid out of the of the FIFA prize money for

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Speaker 1: their World Cup wins. UH. The men were paid I

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Speaker 1: believe about seventy of their FIFA UH prize money for

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Speaker 1: they didn't win the tournament, obviously, but for when they

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Speaker 1: play and appear. So we we like the players to

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Speaker 1: get a large proportion and in the women's case, of

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Speaker 1: that prize money so that it ends up in their pockets.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think it is I think it

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Speaker 1: is important when we think about these issues and think

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Speaker 1: about the rest of the world. UH. To make sure

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Speaker 1: we're comparing, you know, apples to apples. I think we've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot about the fight for equal pay in

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Speaker 1: other countries, and sometimes it's reported in the news and

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Speaker 1: in other countries the men and the women are in

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Speaker 1: fact getting paid equally. But when you drill down on that,

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Speaker 1: they might be getting paid equally, but they're both getting

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Speaker 1: paid a very small percentage of the FIFA prize money

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Speaker 1: and not a lot of money overall or not the

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Speaker 1: benefits of the women's team are getting here in the US,

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Speaker 1: things like that, and so when you look at the

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Speaker 1: just robust pay packages that are women are getting here

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Speaker 1: in the US, it really stands out in comparison to

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world. And again, we'd be happy

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Speaker 1: to work together with the women's team to make sure

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Speaker 1: h that female players and frankly all soccer players around

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Speaker 1: the world are getting are getting paid what they deserve. So, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: basically this this is coming down to a disagreement over

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Speaker 1: the definition of equal payment. Will that be an accurate statement.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an accurate statement, um, But to be

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Speaker 1: a little bit new more nuanced about it, I also

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Speaker 1: think that it comes down to really needing to look

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Speaker 1: at who we're talking about in terms of the pay

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Speaker 1: or um. So, as I've said a few times today,

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Speaker 1: when you look at how US Soccer is paying the women,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's any valid claim um that there's

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Speaker 1: some discrimination or lack of equitable treatment. And we just

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Speaker 1: really need to make sure that we're being careful about

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about and where the money is coming from.

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Speaker 1: Uh that the women may have some legitimate complain about.

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Speaker 1: So if they're legitimately complaining about prize money differentials and

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Speaker 1: tournaments that US Soccer doesn't control, that's one thing. If

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Speaker 1: they're complaining about pay in terms of what US Soccer

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Speaker 1: pays for matches it does control, then I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's a valid complaint there. So it's really it's really

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Speaker 1: looking behind what the complaint is and who they're complaining about. Jamie.

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Speaker 1: We have really really enjoyed speaking with you today. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for spending some time on this holiday weeks.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's trying to wrap up the year. We know you're

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Speaker 1: working hard on this and we really appreciate you bringing

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Speaker 1: us some of the details. And as you say, there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of nuance to this that sometimes I

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Speaker 1: dare say gets lost in the media. That is Jamie Wyan.

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Speaker 1: She's a partner at Latham and Watkins, representing US Soccer

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Speaker 1: in this ongoing discussion, shall we say about equal treatment

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Speaker 1: and equal pay across the US women's and the US

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Speaker 1: men's national teams. Thank you so much, great, thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me. This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Michael Bar on Twitter at Big Bar Sports. And

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Speaker 1: I'm Mike Lynch. You can find me at Lynch e

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Speaker 1: w CVB. And I'm Jason Kelly. You can find me

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Speaker 1: at Jason Kelly News. We're here each and every Monday,

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Speaker 1: Wednesday and Thursday exploring the world of money and sports.

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Speaker 1: Join us again at the end of the week. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna catch up with our pal Joe Knows Sarah. He's

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Speaker 1: got some hot takes he always does on what happened

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Speaker 1: in the world of sports. In spoiler alert, it was

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Speaker 1: a lot. You're listening to The Bloomberg Business of Sports

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio around the world and online wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. M