WEBVTT - S1 UPDATE: Contaminated 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:10.525 School of humans. 0:00:12.165 --> 0:00:14.165 I didn't tell I'll tell y'all, four guys. So Dennis 0:00:14.205 --> 0:00:16.245 is apparently a long haul truck driver, now. 0:00:17.845 --> 0:00:20.525 What Yeah, no, I tell you so, all right. 0:00:20.565 --> 0:00:22.965 So my brother in law he told me that Dennis 0:00:23.045 --> 0:00:25.445 is now a long haul truck driver and that he's 0:00:25.445 --> 0:00:27.485 really happy because he doesn't have to deal with people anymore. 0:00:29.445 --> 0:00:32.005 Yeah, he shouldn't be dealing with people, right, Well, maybe 0:00:32.045 --> 0:00:33.165 he was in the wrong job, you think. 0:00:33.525 --> 0:00:39.805 I mean, no, my, he's like, well, he's just had 0:00:39.885 --> 0:00:42.165 enough of all this and he just you know, he's 0:00:42.205 --> 0:00:43.605 he's he don't want to deal with people anymore. 0:00:43.605 --> 0:00:44.205 And I blame him. 0:00:44.205 --> 0:00:45.445 I'm like, he was in the wrong fucking job and 0:00:45.445 --> 0:00:46.845 he should have gotten out of it and not taking 0:00:46.885 --> 0:00:50.805 taxpayer money for twenty years anyway. 0:00:50.885 --> 0:00:53.965 Crimes, I'm not dealing with people cold. 0:00:53.685 --> 0:00:59.085 Cases, like, yeah, no, I mean anyhow, well, so just 0:00:59.365 --> 0:01:01.405 watch out because he might be you know, who knows, 0:01:01.445 --> 0:01:07.685 he could be passing the area. I saw Dennis Simons 0:01:07.725 --> 0:01:10.485 for the first time in a very long time at 0:01:10.525 --> 0:01:13.245 the pre trial hearing that I attended on October third. 0:01:14.205 --> 0:01:17.565 Dennis retired a couple years ago. In fact, in the hearing, 0:01:17.645 --> 0:01:19.925 when they asked Dennis how they should refer to him 0:01:19.965 --> 0:01:24.165 as a special agent or mister Simons or what he said. 0:01:24.725 --> 0:01:27.885 It used to be special agent, but now it's just nothing. 0:01:29.245 --> 0:01:32.005 Dennis was there to testify about his role as the 0:01:32.085 --> 0:01:36.005 lead investigator on Rebecca's case. He said that he worked 0:01:36.045 --> 0:01:40.365 the case for almost eighteen years. The stakes in this 0:01:40.445 --> 0:01:43.485 pre trial hearing were high. Part of the pre trial 0:01:43.605 --> 0:01:45.965 was Billy Miller's defense lawyers trying to get the case 0:01:46.005 --> 0:01:49.445 dismissed because of what they alleged was an intentional and 0:01:49.525 --> 0:01:53.165 reckless delay that they claimed was simply inertia on Dennis 0:01:53.165 --> 0:01:57.165 Simon's part. While Dennis was talking, he was asked several 0:01:57.285 --> 0:02:00.805 questions about the fact that he failed to act. Dennis 0:02:00.805 --> 0:02:04.925 insisted that Rebecca's case was an active investigation the entire time. 0:02:05.605 --> 0:02:07.965 But I keep thinking back to the very first time 0:02:08.085 --> 0:02:10.605 I saw Dennis Simons in the flesh. It was at 0:02:10.605 --> 0:02:14.245 his satellite office in the Stone County Sheriff's office. I 0:02:14.285 --> 0:02:17.885 remember seeing Rebecca's white case fall on the shelf covered 0:02:17.925 --> 0:02:24.805 in dust. In this episode, I'm going to do a 0:02:24.845 --> 0:02:28.685 deep dive into what doctor Larry Gould, Rebecca's father, calls 0:02:28.845 --> 0:02:32.325 the gray area. I want to go through some discoveries 0:02:32.325 --> 0:02:35.085 we've made about the police work on the case, and 0:02:35.365 --> 0:02:38.565 I'm still trying to make sense of the inconsistencies in 0:02:38.605 --> 0:02:42.205 William's confession, and it seems like every single day now 0:02:42.485 --> 0:02:46.445 we're hearing about more of them. I'm Catherine Townsend. This 0:02:46.725 --> 0:03:26.085 is hell and Gone. So a couple of very interesting 0:03:26.165 --> 0:03:29.365 things came out during the pre trial. First of all, 0:03:30.325 --> 0:03:34.525 Mike McNeil testified that the Arkansas State Police apparently now 0:03:34.685 --> 0:03:38.325 does have an official definition of cold cases. Mike said 0:03:38.445 --> 0:03:43.525 that this change happened very recently, from what I could gather. 0:03:43.965 --> 0:03:47.365 Instead of labeling every case an open and active investigation, 0:03:48.005 --> 0:03:51.485 they are working on an official designation of cold cases. 0:03:52.645 --> 0:03:54.605 I think they could be trying to get away from 0:03:54.645 --> 0:03:56.685 the limbo that a lot of these cases end up 0:03:56.725 --> 0:03:59.085 in for years, which is what happened in Rebecca's case, 0:03:59.325 --> 0:04:02.045 where they're labeled open investigations for years at a time. 0:04:03.405 --> 0:04:06.205 He didn't offer many more details on that, but I 0:04:06.285 --> 0:04:10.205 hope they are changing that system. From what I've seen 0:04:10.245 --> 0:04:13.205 of Mike McNeil, I believe that he has a more 0:04:13.245 --> 0:04:16.565 modern attitude towards solving cases, one that I believe will 0:04:16.605 --> 0:04:19.685 be invaluable to the Arkansas State Police. But it's been 0:04:19.725 --> 0:04:22.365 a good old boys system for a long time, and 0:04:22.485 --> 0:04:26.045 some things are very slow to change. Something else I 0:04:26.125 --> 0:04:28.605 found out during the pre trial hearing was what went 0:04:28.685 --> 0:04:31.125 down after the first season of Hele Gone aired in 0:04:31.165 --> 0:04:35.205 twenty eighteen. Now I'm mentioning this because that is crucial 0:04:35.245 --> 0:04:38.845 to our podcast. What happened was, if you'll remember from 0:04:38.885 --> 0:04:41.725 season one, we took a witness statement from someone who 0:04:41.805 --> 0:04:45.125 had information that was crucial to the case, and Dennis Simons, 0:04:45.125 --> 0:04:47.525 for lack of a better word, blew our witness off, 0:04:48.165 --> 0:04:51.405 even though this witness had information about Rebecca's murder that 0:04:51.525 --> 0:04:54.885 at that time had not been made public. Now, my 0:04:55.005 --> 0:04:57.845 dad does not work in law enforcement, but he is 0:04:57.885 --> 0:05:01.445 a volunteer Stone County Reserved Police Deputy. I got him 0:05:01.485 --> 0:05:03.805 to go with me to interview the witness. We took 0:05:03.805 --> 0:05:07.245 a recorded and written statement, and those statements became part 0:05:07.245 --> 0:05:10.205 of the official record at the case file. I then 0:05:10.365 --> 0:05:13.325 tried to file a complaint against Dennis Simon's because I 0:05:13.405 --> 0:05:17.165 believed that his inaction was actively harming the investigation into 0:05:17.205 --> 0:05:20.805 Rebecca's murder. Then I got that kind of irate call 0:05:20.845 --> 0:05:23.925 from Mark Collingsworth, who was Dennis's superior at the Arkansas 0:05:23.925 --> 0:05:27.285 State Police, Ann, who had also worked on Rebecca's case 0:05:27.325 --> 0:05:30.885 for a few months right before Dennis became lead investigator. 0:05:31.605 --> 0:05:35.005 Mark had me in for that crazy meeting where basically 0:05:35.325 --> 0:05:37.725 he told me investigations are grown up stuff and I 0:05:37.725 --> 0:05:41.085 should mind my own business. Well, after I left there 0:05:41.125 --> 0:05:44.525 and the podcast came out, we found out that Dennis 0:05:44.565 --> 0:05:47.885 Simons was basically ordered to reinvestigate the case, and that 0:05:47.965 --> 0:05:52.205 his reinvestigation consisted of sending other people's police statements back 0:05:52.245 --> 0:05:54.565 to them and asking them if they were still correct, 0:05:55.165 --> 0:05:57.645 rather than bringing them in for an in person interview. 0:05:58.485 --> 0:06:00.845 I said at the time that it seemed like Dennis 0:06:00.925 --> 0:06:04.605 was just kind of ticking boxes and that he appeared 0:06:04.605 --> 0:06:08.285 to be very obos pissed off at us. Well in 0:06:08.365 --> 0:06:11.845 the courtroom during the pre trial hearing, we found out 0:06:11.925 --> 0:06:15.645 that that's pretty much exactly what happened. Dennis testified that 0:06:15.725 --> 0:06:19.125 in twenty eighteen, he attended a case management meeting in 0:06:19.125 --> 0:06:23.765 Little Rock requested by Major Mark Collingsworth, his boss. Dennis 0:06:23.805 --> 0:06:26.525 said that he could not recall the last time that 0:06:26.605 --> 0:06:29.365 a meeting like that had ever happened, and it was 0:06:29.405 --> 0:06:32.165 really funny because when Dennis was asked what happened in 0:06:32.205 --> 0:06:34.045 twenty eighteen that had prompted that meeting. 0:06:34.885 --> 0:06:37.445 He looked like he was starting to get kind of nervous. 0:06:37.965 --> 0:06:41.205 Dennis testified that Rebecca's case was always an open and 0:06:41.285 --> 0:06:44.725 active case file, yet he couldn't seem to remember key 0:06:44.845 --> 0:06:47.765 names or dates. On the stand, he said that he 0:06:47.845 --> 0:06:50.685 tried to read the case file at least once a year, 0:06:51.645 --> 0:06:54.445 and he called the national attention that the case got 0:06:54.525 --> 0:06:57.405 during the last two years of his career, media attention 0:06:57.525 --> 0:07:00.125 by the way that was generated by the Hele Gone podcast, 0:07:00.685 --> 0:07:05.005 extremely disruptive to his career. In my opinion, he started 0:07:05.005 --> 0:07:08.845 to look really flustered, and that to me was very satisfying, 0:07:09.085 --> 0:07:12.765 because he should look flustered. He should be embarrassed about 0:07:12.765 --> 0:07:15.205 the fact that he doesn't know the key dates about 0:07:15.205 --> 0:07:17.605 a case that he was the lead investigator on for 0:07:17.645 --> 0:07:22.125 almost twenty years. We also discovered that the police knew 0:07:22.165 --> 0:07:25.045 about William Miller back in two thousand and four. We 0:07:25.205 --> 0:07:27.365 know that Billy's name came up very early in the 0:07:27.405 --> 0:07:30.925 investigation as someone who had been by Casey's trailer, but 0:07:31.005 --> 0:07:34.765 the ASP investigators didn't see red flags with him, so 0:07:34.885 --> 0:07:38.365 instead of traveling to Texas to question him. They made 0:07:38.365 --> 0:07:42.325 the decision to ask law enforcement in Texas to question Billy. 0:07:42.365 --> 0:07:43.725 When the Texas. 0:07:43.405 --> 0:07:47.725 Police questioned him, they mainly asked him questions about Casey. 0:07:47.885 --> 0:07:51.285 The police also questioned his mom, Linda, and his brother Jeremy. 0:07:51.965 --> 0:07:55.765 All of them denied knowing anything about Rebecca's murder. And 0:07:55.845 --> 0:07:58.405 after that, it appears that the whole thing was just dropped. 0:08:00.005 --> 0:08:03.685 After twenty eighteen, Dennis was taken off the case. I 0:08:03.845 --> 0:08:06.205 believe that that happened as a dire direct result of 0:08:06.245 --> 0:08:09.525 our podcast and of other people who were coming forward 0:08:09.525 --> 0:08:13.045 and other media stuff that was happening. After that, Mike 0:08:13.125 --> 0:08:16.525 McNeil took over the case. Mike said in the hearing 0:08:16.565 --> 0:08:19.805 that when he was assigned to Rebecca's case, he believed 0:08:19.805 --> 0:08:22.165 that it was Casey, or someone in Casey's family, or 0:08:22.245 --> 0:08:25.845 multiple people. He said that he was assigned Rebecca Gould's 0:08:25.845 --> 0:08:29.485 case officially in January of twenty twenty, if you remember, 0:08:29.605 --> 0:08:32.365 it was I believe late January or early February twenty 0:08:32.365 --> 0:08:34.925 twenty when Mike reached out to me and asked for 0:08:34.965 --> 0:08:37.845 all of the recordings that we had, and we shared 0:08:37.845 --> 0:08:41.685 that information with him, including things that were not ever aired. 0:08:42.765 --> 0:08:44.965 Mike got up on the stand, and I thought he 0:08:45.005 --> 0:08:48.045 was spectacular. You could tell that Mike was taking everything 0:08:48.205 --> 0:08:52.445 very seriously. It's pretty incredible when you think Mike only 0:08:52.485 --> 0:08:55.405 had the case for about eight months, Dennis Simons had 0:08:55.405 --> 0:08:58.205 it for almost sixteen years, and Mike was able to 0:08:58.205 --> 0:09:01.165 make an arrest. I am really proud of that. I 0:09:01.165 --> 0:09:04.045 think he did excellent work, and I'm also very proud 0:09:04.085 --> 0:09:11.405 that this podcast played a role in that. I've sent 0:09:11.445 --> 0:09:14.165 Billy Miller a letter, but so far I haven't heard 0:09:14.205 --> 0:09:16.645 back from him. I do know that he's been moved 0:09:16.645 --> 0:09:19.885 from Washitah to the East Arkansas Regional Unit also known 0:09:19.925 --> 0:09:24.085 as Brickey's. It's in Lee County, near Forest City, but 0:09:24.125 --> 0:09:26.405 it's only been a couple of weeks, and I know 0:09:26.485 --> 0:09:28.645 that in the past some of the letters I've sent 0:09:28.685 --> 0:09:31.725 were apparently loost in transit. So I'm going to keep trying. 0:09:32.485 --> 0:09:35.365 If he does communicate with me, I will respond. If 0:09:35.365 --> 0:09:37.725 he puts me on his visitors list, I'll head over 0:09:37.765 --> 0:09:38.645 there in person. 0:09:38.365 --> 0:09:39.245 To talk to him. 0:09:40.605 --> 0:09:43.485 In the meantime, I'm trying to address this gray area 0:09:43.605 --> 0:09:46.285 that Rebecca's daed doctor Larry Gould brought up when I 0:09:46.285 --> 0:09:47.365 saw him a few weeks ago. 0:09:48.445 --> 0:09:53.125 Definitely did it. But the gray area was not answered, 0:09:53.245 --> 0:09:56.205 and the gray area is was there somebody else? 0:09:56.245 --> 0:09:56.525 There? 0:09:58.325 --> 0:10:02.445 Is there somebody else help help with this. There's still questions, 0:10:03.885 --> 0:10:09.245 and hopefully there's you know, a way to get those answers. 0:10:09.245 --> 0:10:13.445 Because that gray area that I said, that, that gray 0:10:13.605 --> 0:10:18.045 haunts me. I'm hoping that there's a way to find 0:10:18.205 --> 0:10:21.005 a piece together that gray area. 0:10:26.605 --> 0:10:30.165 They're always gray areas and murder cases, no matter how 0:10:30.205 --> 0:10:33.005 many questions are answered, we will never know the whole 0:10:33.045 --> 0:10:37.365 truth about what happened. People keep telling me, well, sometimes 0:10:37.565 --> 0:10:40.285 you just have to accept the gray area. I already 0:10:40.325 --> 0:10:43.885 know that everybody lies in a murder investigation. Sometimes the 0:10:43.965 --> 0:10:46.125 lies are white lies, like the fact that somebody was 0:10:46.165 --> 0:10:49.565 actually standing outside rather than inside in their kitchen, but 0:10:49.605 --> 0:10:51.245 they don't want to tell the police that they were 0:10:51.245 --> 0:10:55.685 eavesdropping and being nosy. Then they're the more serious lies, 0:10:56.405 --> 0:11:00.045 lies about whether someone was sexually assaulted or not, Lies 0:11:00.085 --> 0:11:03.445 about what actually happened to the victim or whether someone 0:11:03.485 --> 0:11:06.245 else could have been involved. I really want to be 0:11:06.285 --> 0:11:09.445 able to mentally file Rebecca's case into a cold case, file, 0:11:09.685 --> 0:11:12.805 stamp solved on it, and move on move on to 0:11:12.845 --> 0:11:15.765 other families and other people who want and need my help. 0:11:17.725 --> 0:11:20.765 But a lot of the things about the confession don't 0:11:20.765 --> 0:11:26.445 make sense, like the fact that Billy first said he 0:11:26.485 --> 0:11:30.445 strangled Rebecca, then later told Larry that he didn't. He 0:11:30.485 --> 0:11:32.725 first said that the crime scene was in the bedroom, 0:11:33.125 --> 0:11:35.685 but later when the affidavit for arrest was written, it 0:11:35.765 --> 0:11:37.445 reads simply that he caused her death. 0:11:38.165 --> 0:11:39.525 All that detail was omitted. 0:11:40.405 --> 0:11:42.365 Billy is claiming he was in the area to help 0:11:42.405 --> 0:11:45.325 his family move back to Texas that weekend, but Jennifer 0:11:45.365 --> 0:11:48.325 Buckolts and others have pointed out over the years that 0:11:48.365 --> 0:11:52.605 Billy's brother Jeremy was unenrolled from school pretty suddenly. The 0:11:52.685 --> 0:11:54.965 family did not even bother to book their U hauls 0:11:54.965 --> 0:11:58.925 in advance, So was that move really pre planned or 0:11:58.965 --> 0:12:01.085 did they need to leave town quickly for other reasons. 0:12:03.205 --> 0:12:06.565 Billy did talk to one person after his arrest. She 0:12:06.645 --> 0:12:09.565 wrote an article and printed an excerpt from their interview 0:12:09.645 --> 0:12:13.045 in an online real estate magazine called next Door. That 0:12:13.125 --> 0:12:16.605 interview was apparently set up by one of Rebecca's older sisters. 0:12:17.645 --> 0:12:21.005 In the article, Billy told the reporter that his mother, Linda, 0:12:21.485 --> 0:12:25.405 was reunited with Casey's grandfather, Claude McCullough Senior, who was 0:12:25.445 --> 0:12:30.045 also her biological father when she was young. Billy was 0:12:30.205 --> 0:12:32.765 very close to his mother growing up, but his father 0:12:32.925 --> 0:12:36.045 was working far away from home, so as Billy grew up, 0:12:36.285 --> 0:12:39.125 he apparently was fascinated by Claude McCullough and was very 0:12:39.125 --> 0:12:42.885 close to Claude and his grandmother. Billy had told law 0:12:42.965 --> 0:12:46.165 enforcement that he went back to Casey's trailer twice on Sunday, 0:12:46.685 --> 0:12:49.925 but in the article there's even more detail. This time, 0:12:50.005 --> 0:12:51.685 he seems to say he went back to the trailer 0:12:51.725 --> 0:12:54.645 three times, once when Casey was there. That's the time 0:12:54.645 --> 0:12:57.485 when he saw Rebecca come out the door. Then Billy 0:12:57.565 --> 0:13:00.005 said he went back again but no one was home. 0:13:00.085 --> 0:13:02.205 And then he said he went back later that night 0:13:02.525 --> 0:13:05.805 to ask Casey if he could help load furniture. Hasey 0:13:05.845 --> 0:13:09.245 said he was busy. Billy said before that he parked 0:13:09.245 --> 0:13:11.365 his truck out in the woods to hide it, but 0:13:11.445 --> 0:13:15.005 in this interview he says he parked it behind the house. Now, 0:13:15.045 --> 0:13:17.605 this is the area where the back porches, cars and 0:13:17.605 --> 0:13:21.405 trucks could pull up there, so if Billy's truck was there, 0:13:22.045 --> 0:13:25.165 Rebecca could have seen the vehicle, so who was he 0:13:25.245 --> 0:13:28.725 hiding the vehicle from, from Rebecca or from people on 0:13:28.765 --> 0:13:32.965 the street. In the article, the writer explained that Billy 0:13:33.045 --> 0:13:36.045 seemed to be hiding things about family members, people who 0:13:36.085 --> 0:13:39.245 may have known about the murder. It reads quote a 0:13:39.285 --> 0:13:41.445 direct question such as when did your mother know? 0:13:41.525 --> 0:13:42.165 As deflected. 0:13:42.725 --> 0:13:44.885 When William asked to speak to his brother and mother, 0:13:45.325 --> 0:13:49.205 according to the article, Jeremy, his brother, was shocked, but Linda, 0:13:49.365 --> 0:13:52.445 his mother, had no reaction. In the article, it states 0:13:52.485 --> 0:13:55.565 that this is because he claimed that she was diabetic 0:13:55.605 --> 0:13:59.365 and was in a trance end quote. According to the article, 0:13:59.445 --> 0:14:02.765 when police contacted Linda Billy's mom in Oregon back in 0:14:02.765 --> 0:14:06.125 twenty twenty and asked if he was there, she said 0:14:06.205 --> 0:14:08.605 that Billy was out of the country, even though he 0:14:08.685 --> 0:14:12.565 was already in Oregon. Later, according to media reports, she 0:14:12.685 --> 0:14:14.805 claimed that this was because she wasn't sure if this 0:14:14.885 --> 0:14:19.685 was a legitimate officer. I find that very hard to believe, 0:14:20.165 --> 0:14:23.645 especially since after that phone call from the police, she 0:14:23.765 --> 0:14:27.285 then reportedly contacted Billy and told him that the situation 0:14:27.445 --> 0:14:30.045 needed to be dealt with. If she thought the officer 0:14:30.165 --> 0:14:34.005 wasn't legit, why bother to reach out? And then there 0:14:34.045 --> 0:14:36.445 are the cleaning supplies, the ones that were shown in 0:14:36.485 --> 0:14:40.085 the crime scene photos. According to this article, Linda bought 0:14:40.125 --> 0:14:43.765 those cleaning supplies at the request of Casey's father, which 0:14:43.765 --> 0:14:48.365 apparently was part of their usual routine. This seems incredibly 0:14:48.405 --> 0:14:51.685 odd to me. Why would Linda be buying all new 0:14:51.725 --> 0:14:54.725 cleaning products for the trailer? And again, if she bought 0:14:54.765 --> 0:14:57.405 them and took them inside, didn't she notice that there 0:14:57.445 --> 0:15:00.805 was blood everywhere? When I was in court for the 0:15:00.805 --> 0:15:05.005 pre trial hearing, Mike McNeil testified that Billy had communication 0:15:05.245 --> 0:15:08.605 with Casey and his mother, Linda, and others about the 0:15:08.605 --> 0:15:09.885 case and his arrest. 0:15:10.565 --> 0:15:11.445 He didn't go. 0:15:11.365 --> 0:15:15.485 Into more detail, unfortunately, But why would Billy specifically feel 0:15:15.485 --> 0:15:17.805 the need to reach out to those people in that moment? 0:15:18.685 --> 0:15:21.805 But if Billy didn't act alone, why would he insist 0:15:21.845 --> 0:15:25.245 that he did. Billy has been caught in several inconsistent 0:15:25.285 --> 0:15:28.005 statements so far that we know of, so why would 0:15:28.045 --> 0:15:31.325 law enforcement accept his confession even if it's not consistent 0:15:31.365 --> 0:15:34.805 with the crime scene photos. To get answers, I did 0:15:34.805 --> 0:15:38.085 some research into false confessions. It turns out that false 0:15:38.165 --> 0:15:41.005 confessions happen all the time for all kinds of reasons. 0:15:41.405 --> 0:15:44.485 People always say, well, why would somebody ever confess to 0:15:44.525 --> 0:15:49.245 a crime that they didn't do? And my comeback is, well, 0:15:49.245 --> 0:15:51.325 why would you confess to a crime that you did to? 0:15:51.885 --> 0:15:53.965 I mean, doing both is pretty stupid. 0:15:55.165 --> 0:15:58.685 This is Jim Traneum. He's a retired detective from the Washington, 0:15:58.765 --> 0:16:02.125 D C. Metropolitan Police Department, where he spent twenty seven 0:16:02.205 --> 0:16:05.445 years as a homicide detective, and now he's a consult 0:16:05.525 --> 0:16:08.805 in the police practices, especially in the area of interrogation 0:16:08.925 --> 0:16:11.805 and false confessions. I wanted to talk to him about 0:16:11.805 --> 0:16:14.565 false confessions, how they happen, and what we can do 0:16:14.645 --> 0:16:16.205 to prevent them. 0:16:16.525 --> 0:16:20.045 The interrogation practices that we've been using for well over 0:16:20.125 --> 0:16:22.965 forty years in this country have been very well established, 0:16:23.365 --> 0:16:26.045 have been accepted by the courts. But just because they're 0:16:26.045 --> 0:16:28.965 accepted by the courts doesn't mean that they're not problematic. 0:16:29.485 --> 0:16:35.245 But they're designed to convince you that your best path 0:16:35.925 --> 0:16:38.965 is to tell the detective what they want to hear. 0:16:39.685 --> 0:16:44.765 And we do that pretty much by convincing you that 0:16:44.805 --> 0:16:47.525 your conviction is going to be inevitable, that the judges 0:16:47.565 --> 0:16:50.125 are going to look at you very badly. People, they're 0:16:50.125 --> 0:16:52.325 not going to think very highly of you. You know, 0:16:52.445 --> 0:16:54.965 jurors are going to really look down. But if you confess, 0:16:55.925 --> 0:17:00.085 then you know, people will understand, people will be more sympathetic, 0:17:00.725 --> 0:17:04.565 and there's all other kind of benefits that are kind 0:17:04.605 --> 0:17:08.765 of insinuated in this process that makes the person believe 0:17:08.765 --> 0:17:10.725 that their best like I said, their best option is 0:17:10.765 --> 0:17:12.725 to tell the detective what they want to hear. 0:17:13.325 --> 0:17:13.565 Now. 0:17:13.645 --> 0:17:17.845 The thing about this process is that it's very very effective. 0:17:18.725 --> 0:17:22.245 It does get a lot of good confessions. The problem 0:17:22.325 --> 0:17:26.125 is is that it can also create the same mindset 0:17:26.205 --> 0:17:29.765 inside of an innocent person who believes that, oh my god, 0:17:29.805 --> 0:17:32.925 they're telling me that they have my fingerprints, where they 0:17:32.925 --> 0:17:36.005 have a bunch of witnesses who saw me do this, 0:17:36.325 --> 0:17:38.925 and that everybody's going to believe the witnesses and not me, 0:17:39.725 --> 0:17:43.165 and my only out is to tell the detective, you know, 0:17:43.205 --> 0:17:45.965 what they want to hear. Now, I've got to figure 0:17:45.965 --> 0:17:50.805 out what that is. And so that's where contamination comes in. 0:17:51.645 --> 0:17:58.085 As officers, we understand how contamination of physical evidence occurs 0:17:58.205 --> 0:18:00.045 very well, and we take a lot of steps to 0:18:00.125 --> 0:18:03.965 guard against that. However, when it comes to getting statement evidence, 0:18:04.005 --> 0:18:07.605 not only from suspect but also for witnesses, we have 0:18:07.685 --> 0:18:11.365 a very poor understanding of how to interview them in 0:18:11.405 --> 0:18:13.165 such a way that that we can show that the 0:18:13.245 --> 0:18:17.205 information is coming from them, it is not unintentionally being 0:18:17.285 --> 0:18:20.645 fit to them by us. You have to be able 0:18:20.645 --> 0:18:25.685 to show that that information came from the suspect and 0:18:25.765 --> 0:18:31.165 not from the detective or another source or the podcast. Right, 0:18:31.245 --> 0:18:32.605 I didn't that's what I'm interview. 0:18:32.685 --> 0:18:35.245 But you know, I'm sure I did some of that myself, 0:18:35.245 --> 0:18:38.405 and I'm trying to now figure out how to best 0:18:38.485 --> 0:18:38.925 handle that. 0:18:39.765 --> 0:18:42.845 Well, the thing about it is, especially in cases like this, 0:18:43.845 --> 0:18:48.045 the likelihood of the person having new information, and this 0:18:48.165 --> 0:18:51.885 is a goal standard. Does a person have new information 0:18:52.845 --> 0:18:58.245 that the detectives did not know prior to the interrogation 0:18:58.725 --> 0:19:03.605 that they could then go out and collaborate, such as 0:19:03.885 --> 0:19:07.965 the location of the murder weapon, things along that line. Now, 0:19:08.485 --> 0:19:13.325 physical cooboration is always the best. However, you could also 0:19:13.365 --> 0:19:16.245 sometimes coroborate it through witnesses. But the problem is, of 0:19:16.245 --> 0:19:19.405 course that they go back that might contaminate what they 0:19:19.445 --> 0:19:21.325 might say, Yeah, well just got confessed and this is 0:19:21.325 --> 0:19:24.485 what he said is just true? Oh yeah, that's true. 0:19:24.525 --> 0:19:27.365 You know, you see that happen a lot. You know, 0:19:27.925 --> 0:19:32.485 you could have a guilty suspect who gives a confession 0:19:32.525 --> 0:19:35.005 that matches all of such, but the contamination is so 0:19:35.205 --> 0:19:38.605 bad that you can't prove that it came from them, 0:19:39.565 --> 0:19:41.605 and it made the confession worseless. 0:19:42.885 --> 0:19:46.725 This stands out to me because Billy's confession about what 0:19:46.805 --> 0:19:50.125 actually happened to Rebecca had no details in it that 0:19:50.125 --> 0:19:53.125 could not have been found online. As I mentioned, we 0:19:53.285 --> 0:19:55.485 know that he was reading stuff on the unsolved Murder 0:19:55.525 --> 0:19:58.045 of Rebecca Gould community. We also know that he was 0:19:58.085 --> 0:20:00.605 reading books about the case, and he was listening to 0:20:00.645 --> 0:20:05.765 my podcast and other podcasts. Billy did have one new 0:20:05.765 --> 0:20:09.245 detail that police didn't have for years. We had been 0:20:09.245 --> 0:20:12.565 hearing that Rebecca had a black rolling suitcase and that 0:20:12.645 --> 0:20:15.845 it had been missing from the crime scene. Billy told 0:20:15.845 --> 0:20:19.925 investigators the location of that suitcase and then was able 0:20:19.965 --> 0:20:22.445 to lead them to the exact spot in Izard County 0:20:22.445 --> 0:20:26.325 where the suitcase was. So this does point to Billy 0:20:26.445 --> 0:20:30.165 being involved in Rebecca's murder, but other parts of Billy's 0:20:30.165 --> 0:20:33.885 confession don't make sense, especially when he talks about what 0:20:34.085 --> 0:20:38.005 actually happened to Rebecca inside that trailer. There were several 0:20:38.005 --> 0:20:41.245 inconsistencies in that confession, like the fact that Billy's timing 0:20:41.325 --> 0:20:45.285 was wrong. As Jennifer Buckletz pointed out, the law enforcement 0:20:45.285 --> 0:20:48.645 timeline has Rebecca driving Casey to work, then stopping at 0:20:48.685 --> 0:20:51.885 the Possum Trot to buy that breakfast sandwich, then driving 0:20:51.885 --> 0:20:55.325 the fifteen minutes back to Casey's trailer. Casey clocked in 0:20:55.365 --> 0:20:57.925 at eight twelve on Monday morning, so that would put 0:20:57.965 --> 0:21:01.165 Rebecca back at his place at around eight thirty. William 0:21:01.205 --> 0:21:04.325 claims he was there at eight am. So if police 0:21:04.365 --> 0:21:07.445 believed that Billy may have left details out of his confession, 0:21:08.005 --> 0:21:10.125 or if they knew that there were details that didn't 0:21:10.125 --> 0:21:13.005 make sense or fit the physical evidence, why would they 0:21:13.045 --> 0:21:16.125 accept the confession. We're dealing with a man who we 0:21:16.365 --> 0:21:20.205 know has been lined everyone for eighteen years, and who 0:21:20.205 --> 0:21:23.485 has already told at least two different stories about what 0:21:23.565 --> 0:21:27.325 really happened to Rebecca Gould. So Billy did provide law 0:21:27.405 --> 0:21:30.405 enforcement with details about the crime scene cleanup that weren't 0:21:30.405 --> 0:21:33.725 known before, but he didn't add any new details about 0:21:33.725 --> 0:21:37.445 Rebecca's murder that the police didn't already have. That, plus 0:21:37.485 --> 0:21:40.245 the fact that his confession doesn't match the physical evidence, 0:21:40.685 --> 0:21:44.445 that raises real doubts to me that Billy's confession has 0:21:44.485 --> 0:21:51.605 been contaminated in some way. One big question in our 0:21:51.645 --> 0:21:56.005 gray area is what's the exact relationship between Billy Miller 0:21:56.085 --> 0:21:57.085 and Casey McCullough. 0:21:57.805 --> 0:21:59.485 We know that they're first cousins. 0:22:00.845 --> 0:22:03.965 To get some more insight on Billy's family tree, I 0:22:04.005 --> 0:22:07.005 talked to Miranda Ward. She's an next girlfriend of Casey's. 0:22:07.605 --> 0:22:10.205 They started dating in twenty ten and went out for 0:22:10.245 --> 0:22:12.845 about a year and a half. The first time that 0:22:12.885 --> 0:22:15.285 I met Miranda was actually at Crime Con in Austin 0:22:15.325 --> 0:22:17.965 a few years back. She came to my talk where 0:22:17.965 --> 0:22:20.725 I mentioned Rebecca's case and she was sitting with George 0:22:20.765 --> 0:22:23.485 Jared and Jennifer Buckoltz. We all ended up going out 0:22:23.485 --> 0:22:26.285 to dinner and drinks, she told me at the time, 0:22:26.325 --> 0:22:28.765 and she still says she can't stop thinking about the 0:22:28.805 --> 0:22:32.045 fact that she was dating someone and completely trusted someone 0:22:32.325 --> 0:22:34.965 who she later suspected could have been involved in a 0:22:35.005 --> 0:22:35.725 brutal murder. 0:22:40.885 --> 0:22:43.925 What was Casey like? What was he like as a boyfriend? 0:22:45.605 --> 0:22:51.485 A was very very sweet and doting. You know, he 0:22:51.565 --> 0:22:54.645 paid attention, but you know, we only dated for like 0:22:54.685 --> 0:22:57.565 a year and a half, maybe maybe almost two. Her 0:22:57.565 --> 0:23:04.165 breakup was it was it's kind of weird. But I worked, 0:23:04.205 --> 0:23:06.965 you know, waiting tables at Applebee's and we were open 0:23:07.045 --> 0:23:09.765 until two in the morning, so that smoking area kind 0:23:09.765 --> 0:23:12.005 of turned into a little, you know, party spot, and 0:23:12.965 --> 0:23:15.525 you know, we closed down and he would hang out 0:23:15.725 --> 0:23:19.965 and you know it help helped me out at work 0:23:20.605 --> 0:23:23.805 or you know, just be there. Yeah. He was romantic, 0:23:23.925 --> 0:23:26.125