1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:10,525 Speaker 1: School of humans. 2 00:00:12,165 --> 00:00:14,165 Speaker 2: I didn't tell I'll tell y'all, four guys. So Dennis 3 00:00:14,205 --> 00:00:16,245 Speaker 2: is apparently a long haul truck driver, now. 4 00:00:17,845 --> 00:00:20,525 Speaker 1: What Yeah, no, I tell you so, all right. 5 00:00:20,565 --> 00:00:22,965 Speaker 2: So my brother in law he told me that Dennis 6 00:00:23,045 --> 00:00:25,445 Speaker 2: is now a long haul truck driver and that he's 7 00:00:25,445 --> 00:00:27,485 Speaker 2: really happy because he doesn't have to deal with people anymore. 8 00:00:29,445 --> 00:00:32,005 Speaker 1: Yeah, he shouldn't be dealing with people, right, Well, maybe 9 00:00:32,045 --> 00:00:33,165 Speaker 1: he was in the wrong job, you think. 10 00:00:33,525 --> 00:00:39,805 Speaker 2: I mean, no, my, he's like, well, he's just had 11 00:00:39,885 --> 00:00:42,165 Speaker 2: enough of all this and he just you know, he's 12 00:00:42,205 --> 00:00:43,605 Speaker 2: he's he don't want to deal with people anymore. 13 00:00:43,605 --> 00:00:44,205 Speaker 1: And I blame him. 14 00:00:44,205 --> 00:00:45,445 Speaker 2: I'm like, he was in the wrong fucking job and 15 00:00:45,445 --> 00:00:46,845 Speaker 2: he should have gotten out of it and not taking 16 00:00:46,885 --> 00:00:50,805 Speaker 2: taxpayer money for twenty years anyway. 17 00:00:50,885 --> 00:00:53,965 Speaker 3: Crimes, I'm not dealing with people cold. 18 00:00:53,685 --> 00:00:59,085 Speaker 2: Cases, like, yeah, no, I mean anyhow, well, so just 19 00:00:59,365 --> 00:01:01,405 Speaker 2: watch out because he might be you know, who knows, 20 00:01:01,445 --> 00:01:07,685 Speaker 2: he could be passing the area. I saw Dennis Simons 21 00:01:07,725 --> 00:01:10,485 Speaker 2: for the first time in a very long time at 22 00:01:10,525 --> 00:01:13,245 Speaker 2: the pre trial hearing that I attended on October third. 23 00:01:14,205 --> 00:01:17,565 Speaker 2: Dennis retired a couple years ago. In fact, in the hearing, 24 00:01:17,645 --> 00:01:19,925 Speaker 2: when they asked Dennis how they should refer to him 25 00:01:19,965 --> 00:01:24,165 Speaker 2: as a special agent or mister Simons or what he said. 26 00:01:24,725 --> 00:01:27,885 Speaker 2: It used to be special agent, but now it's just nothing. 27 00:01:29,245 --> 00:01:32,005 Speaker 2: Dennis was there to testify about his role as the 28 00:01:32,085 --> 00:01:36,005 Speaker 2: lead investigator on Rebecca's case. He said that he worked 29 00:01:36,045 --> 00:01:40,365 Speaker 2: the case for almost eighteen years. The stakes in this 30 00:01:40,445 --> 00:01:43,485 Speaker 2: pre trial hearing were high. Part of the pre trial 31 00:01:43,605 --> 00:01:45,965 Speaker 2: was Billy Miller's defense lawyers trying to get the case 32 00:01:46,005 --> 00:01:49,445 Speaker 2: dismissed because of what they alleged was an intentional and 33 00:01:49,525 --> 00:01:53,165 Speaker 2: reckless delay that they claimed was simply inertia on Dennis 34 00:01:53,165 --> 00:01:57,165 Speaker 2: Simon's part. While Dennis was talking, he was asked several 35 00:01:57,285 --> 00:02:00,805 Speaker 2: questions about the fact that he failed to act. Dennis 36 00:02:00,805 --> 00:02:04,925 Speaker 2: insisted that Rebecca's case was an active investigation the entire time. 37 00:02:05,605 --> 00:02:07,965 Speaker 2: But I keep thinking back to the very first time 38 00:02:08,085 --> 00:02:10,605 Speaker 2: I saw Dennis Simons in the flesh. It was at 39 00:02:10,605 --> 00:02:14,245 Speaker 2: his satellite office in the Stone County Sheriff's office. I 40 00:02:14,285 --> 00:02:17,885 Speaker 2: remember seeing Rebecca's white case fall on the shelf covered 41 00:02:17,925 --> 00:02:24,805 Speaker 2: in dust. In this episode, I'm going to do a 42 00:02:24,845 --> 00:02:28,685 Speaker 2: deep dive into what doctor Larry Gould, Rebecca's father, calls 43 00:02:28,845 --> 00:02:32,325 Speaker 2: the gray area. I want to go through some discoveries 44 00:02:32,325 --> 00:02:35,085 Speaker 2: we've made about the police work on the case, and 45 00:02:35,365 --> 00:02:38,565 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to make sense of the inconsistencies in 46 00:02:38,605 --> 00:02:42,205 Speaker 2: William's confession, and it seems like every single day now 47 00:02:42,485 --> 00:02:46,445 Speaker 2: we're hearing about more of them. I'm Catherine Townsend. This 48 00:02:46,725 --> 00:03:26,085 Speaker 2: is hell and Gone. So a couple of very interesting 49 00:03:26,165 --> 00:03:29,365 Speaker 2: things came out during the pre trial. First of all, 50 00:03:30,325 --> 00:03:34,525 Speaker 2: Mike McNeil testified that the Arkansas State Police apparently now 51 00:03:34,685 --> 00:03:38,325 Speaker 2: does have an official definition of cold cases. Mike said 52 00:03:38,445 --> 00:03:43,525 Speaker 2: that this change happened very recently, from what I could gather. 53 00:03:43,965 --> 00:03:47,365 Speaker 2: Instead of labeling every case an open and active investigation, 54 00:03:48,005 --> 00:03:51,485 Speaker 2: they are working on an official designation of cold cases. 55 00:03:52,645 --> 00:03:54,605 Speaker 2: I think they could be trying to get away from 56 00:03:54,645 --> 00:03:56,685 Speaker 2: the limbo that a lot of these cases end up 57 00:03:56,725 --> 00:03:59,085 Speaker 2: in for years, which is what happened in Rebecca's case, 58 00:03:59,325 --> 00:04:02,045 Speaker 2: where they're labeled open investigations for years at a time. 59 00:04:03,405 --> 00:04:06,205 Speaker 2: He didn't offer many more details on that, but I 60 00:04:06,285 --> 00:04:10,205 Speaker 2: hope they are changing that system. From what I've seen 61 00:04:10,245 --> 00:04:13,205 Speaker 2: of Mike McNeil, I believe that he has a more 62 00:04:13,245 --> 00:04:16,565 Speaker 2: modern attitude towards solving cases, one that I believe will 63 00:04:16,605 --> 00:04:19,685 Speaker 2: be invaluable to the Arkansas State Police. But it's been 64 00:04:19,725 --> 00:04:22,365 Speaker 2: a good old boys system for a long time, and 65 00:04:22,485 --> 00:04:26,045 Speaker 2: some things are very slow to change. Something else I 66 00:04:26,125 --> 00:04:28,605 Speaker 2: found out during the pre trial hearing was what went 67 00:04:28,685 --> 00:04:31,125 Speaker 2: down after the first season of Hele Gone aired in 68 00:04:31,165 --> 00:04:35,205 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. Now I'm mentioning this because that is crucial 69 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:38,845 Speaker 2: to our podcast. What happened was, if you'll remember from 70 00:04:38,885 --> 00:04:41,725 Speaker 2: season one, we took a witness statement from someone who 71 00:04:41,805 --> 00:04:45,125 Speaker 2: had information that was crucial to the case, and Dennis Simons, 72 00:04:45,125 --> 00:04:47,525 Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, blew our witness off, 73 00:04:48,165 --> 00:04:51,405 Speaker 2: even though this witness had information about Rebecca's murder that 74 00:04:51,525 --> 00:04:54,885 Speaker 2: at that time had not been made public. Now, my 75 00:04:55,005 --> 00:04:57,845 Speaker 2: dad does not work in law enforcement, but he is 76 00:04:57,885 --> 00:05:01,445 Speaker 2: a volunteer Stone County Reserved Police Deputy. I got him 77 00:05:01,485 --> 00:05:03,805 Speaker 2: to go with me to interview the witness. We took 78 00:05:03,805 --> 00:05:07,245 Speaker 2: a recorded and written statement, and those statements became part 79 00:05:07,245 --> 00:05:10,205 Speaker 2: of the official record at the case file. I then 80 00:05:10,365 --> 00:05:13,325 Speaker 2: tried to file a complaint against Dennis Simon's because I 81 00:05:13,405 --> 00:05:17,165 Speaker 2: believed that his inaction was actively harming the investigation into 82 00:05:17,205 --> 00:05:20,805 Speaker 2: Rebecca's murder. Then I got that kind of irate call 83 00:05:20,845 --> 00:05:23,925 Speaker 2: from Mark Collingsworth, who was Dennis's superior at the Arkansas 84 00:05:23,925 --> 00:05:27,285 Speaker 2: State Police, Ann, who had also worked on Rebecca's case 85 00:05:27,325 --> 00:05:30,885 Speaker 2: for a few months right before Dennis became lead investigator. 86 00:05:31,605 --> 00:05:35,005 Speaker 2: Mark had me in for that crazy meeting where basically 87 00:05:35,325 --> 00:05:37,725 Speaker 2: he told me investigations are grown up stuff and I 88 00:05:37,725 --> 00:05:41,085 Speaker 2: should mind my own business. Well, after I left there 89 00:05:41,125 --> 00:05:44,525 Speaker 2: and the podcast came out, we found out that Dennis 90 00:05:44,565 --> 00:05:47,885 Speaker 2: Simons was basically ordered to reinvestigate the case, and that 91 00:05:47,965 --> 00:05:52,205 Speaker 2: his reinvestigation consisted of sending other people's police statements back 92 00:05:52,245 --> 00:05:54,565 Speaker 2: to them and asking them if they were still correct, 93 00:05:55,165 --> 00:05:57,645 Speaker 2: rather than bringing them in for an in person interview. 94 00:05:58,485 --> 00:06:00,845 Speaker 2: I said at the time that it seemed like Dennis 95 00:06:00,925 --> 00:06:04,605 Speaker 2: was just kind of ticking boxes and that he appeared 96 00:06:04,605 --> 00:06:08,285 Speaker 2: to be very obos pissed off at us. Well in 97 00:06:08,365 --> 00:06:11,845 Speaker 2: the courtroom during the pre trial hearing, we found out 98 00:06:11,925 --> 00:06:15,645 Speaker 2: that that's pretty much exactly what happened. Dennis testified that 99 00:06:15,725 --> 00:06:19,125 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, he attended a case management meeting in 100 00:06:19,125 --> 00:06:23,765 Speaker 2: Little Rock requested by Major Mark Collingsworth, his boss. Dennis 101 00:06:23,805 --> 00:06:26,525 Speaker 2: said that he could not recall the last time that 102 00:06:26,605 --> 00:06:29,365 Speaker 2: a meeting like that had ever happened, and it was 103 00:06:29,405 --> 00:06:32,165 Speaker 2: really funny because when Dennis was asked what happened in 104 00:06:32,205 --> 00:06:34,045 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen that had prompted that meeting. 105 00:06:34,885 --> 00:06:37,445 Speaker 1: He looked like he was starting to get kind of nervous. 106 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,205 Speaker 2: Dennis testified that Rebecca's case was always an open and 107 00:06:41,285 --> 00:06:44,725 Speaker 2: active case file, yet he couldn't seem to remember key 108 00:06:44,845 --> 00:06:47,765 Speaker 2: names or dates. On the stand, he said that he 109 00:06:47,845 --> 00:06:50,685 Speaker 2: tried to read the case file at least once a year, 110 00:06:51,645 --> 00:06:54,445 Speaker 2: and he called the national attention that the case got 111 00:06:54,525 --> 00:06:57,405 Speaker 2: during the last two years of his career, media attention 112 00:06:57,525 --> 00:07:00,125 Speaker 2: by the way that was generated by the Hele Gone podcast, 113 00:07:00,685 --> 00:07:05,005 Speaker 2: extremely disruptive to his career. In my opinion, he started 114 00:07:05,005 --> 00:07:08,845 Speaker 2: to look really flustered, and that to me was very satisfying, 115 00:07:09,085 --> 00:07:12,765 Speaker 2: because he should look flustered. He should be embarrassed about 116 00:07:12,765 --> 00:07:15,205 Speaker 2: the fact that he doesn't know the key dates about 117 00:07:15,205 --> 00:07:17,605 Speaker 2: a case that he was the lead investigator on for 118 00:07:17,645 --> 00:07:22,125 Speaker 2: almost twenty years. We also discovered that the police knew 119 00:07:22,165 --> 00:07:25,045 Speaker 2: about William Miller back in two thousand and four. We 120 00:07:25,205 --> 00:07:27,365 Speaker 2: know that Billy's name came up very early in the 121 00:07:27,405 --> 00:07:30,925 Speaker 2: investigation as someone who had been by Casey's trailer, but 122 00:07:31,005 --> 00:07:34,765 Speaker 2: the ASP investigators didn't see red flags with him, so 123 00:07:34,885 --> 00:07:38,365 Speaker 2: instead of traveling to Texas to question him. They made 124 00:07:38,365 --> 00:07:42,325 Speaker 2: the decision to ask law enforcement in Texas to question Billy. 125 00:07:42,365 --> 00:07:43,725 Speaker 1: When the Texas. 126 00:07:43,405 --> 00:07:47,725 Speaker 2: Police questioned him, they mainly asked him questions about Casey. 127 00:07:47,885 --> 00:07:51,285 Speaker 2: The police also questioned his mom, Linda, and his brother Jeremy. 128 00:07:51,965 --> 00:07:55,765 Speaker 2: All of them denied knowing anything about Rebecca's murder. And 129 00:07:55,845 --> 00:07:58,405 Speaker 2: after that, it appears that the whole thing was just dropped. 130 00:08:00,005 --> 00:08:03,685 Speaker 2: After twenty eighteen, Dennis was taken off the case. I 131 00:08:03,845 --> 00:08:06,205 Speaker 2: believe that that happened as a dire direct result of 132 00:08:06,245 --> 00:08:09,525 Speaker 2: our podcast and of other people who were coming forward 133 00:08:09,525 --> 00:08:13,045 Speaker 2: and other media stuff that was happening. After that, Mike 134 00:08:13,125 --> 00:08:16,525 Speaker 2: McNeil took over the case. Mike said in the hearing 135 00:08:16,565 --> 00:08:19,805 Speaker 2: that when he was assigned to Rebecca's case, he believed 136 00:08:19,805 --> 00:08:22,165 Speaker 2: that it was Casey, or someone in Casey's family, or 137 00:08:22,245 --> 00:08:25,845 Speaker 2: multiple people. He said that he was assigned Rebecca Gould's 138 00:08:25,845 --> 00:08:29,485 Speaker 2: case officially in January of twenty twenty, if you remember, 139 00:08:29,605 --> 00:08:32,365 Speaker 2: it was I believe late January or early February twenty 140 00:08:32,365 --> 00:08:34,925 Speaker 2: twenty when Mike reached out to me and asked for 141 00:08:34,965 --> 00:08:37,845 Speaker 2: all of the recordings that we had, and we shared 142 00:08:37,845 --> 00:08:41,685 Speaker 2: that information with him, including things that were not ever aired. 143 00:08:42,765 --> 00:08:44,965 Speaker 2: Mike got up on the stand, and I thought he 144 00:08:45,005 --> 00:08:48,045 Speaker 2: was spectacular. You could tell that Mike was taking everything 145 00:08:48,205 --> 00:08:52,445 Speaker 2: very seriously. It's pretty incredible when you think Mike only 146 00:08:52,485 --> 00:08:55,405 Speaker 2: had the case for about eight months, Dennis Simons had 147 00:08:55,405 --> 00:08:58,205 Speaker 2: it for almost sixteen years, and Mike was able to 148 00:08:58,205 --> 00:09:01,165 Speaker 2: make an arrest. I am really proud of that. I 149 00:09:01,165 --> 00:09:04,045 Speaker 2: think he did excellent work, and I'm also very proud 150 00:09:04,085 --> 00:09:11,405 Speaker 2: that this podcast played a role in that. I've sent 151 00:09:11,445 --> 00:09:14,165 Speaker 2: Billy Miller a letter, but so far I haven't heard 152 00:09:14,205 --> 00:09:16,645 Speaker 2: back from him. I do know that he's been moved 153 00:09:16,645 --> 00:09:19,885 Speaker 2: from Washitah to the East Arkansas Regional Unit also known 154 00:09:19,925 --> 00:09:24,085 Speaker 2: as Brickey's. It's in Lee County, near Forest City, but 155 00:09:24,125 --> 00:09:26,405 Speaker 2: it's only been a couple of weeks, and I know 156 00:09:26,485 --> 00:09:28,645 Speaker 2: that in the past some of the letters I've sent 157 00:09:28,685 --> 00:09:31,725 Speaker 2: were apparently loost in transit. So I'm going to keep trying. 158 00:09:32,485 --> 00:09:35,365 Speaker 2: If he does communicate with me, I will respond. If 159 00:09:35,365 --> 00:09:37,725 Speaker 2: he puts me on his visitors list, I'll head over 160 00:09:37,765 --> 00:09:38,645 Speaker 2: there in person. 161 00:09:38,365 --> 00:09:39,245 Speaker 1: To talk to him. 162 00:09:40,605 --> 00:09:43,485 Speaker 2: In the meantime, I'm trying to address this gray area 163 00:09:43,605 --> 00:09:46,285 Speaker 2: that Rebecca's daed doctor Larry Gould brought up when I 164 00:09:46,285 --> 00:09:47,365 Speaker 2: saw him a few weeks ago. 165 00:09:48,445 --> 00:09:53,125 Speaker 4: Definitely did it. But the gray area was not answered, 166 00:09:53,245 --> 00:09:56,205 Speaker 4: and the gray area is was there somebody else? 167 00:09:56,245 --> 00:09:56,525 Speaker 5: There? 168 00:09:58,325 --> 00:10:02,445 Speaker 4: Is there somebody else help help with this. There's still questions, 169 00:10:03,885 --> 00:10:09,245 Speaker 4: and hopefully there's you know, a way to get those answers. 170 00:10:09,245 --> 00:10:13,445 Speaker 4: Because that gray area that I said, that, that gray 171 00:10:13,605 --> 00:10:18,045 Speaker 4: haunts me. I'm hoping that there's a way to find 172 00:10:18,205 --> 00:10:21,005 Speaker 4: a piece together that gray area. 173 00:10:26,605 --> 00:10:30,165 Speaker 2: They're always gray areas and murder cases, no matter how 174 00:10:30,205 --> 00:10:33,005 Speaker 2: many questions are answered, we will never know the whole 175 00:10:33,045 --> 00:10:37,365 Speaker 2: truth about what happened. People keep telling me, well, sometimes 176 00:10:37,565 --> 00:10:40,285 Speaker 2: you just have to accept the gray area. I already 177 00:10:40,325 --> 00:10:43,885 Speaker 2: know that everybody lies in a murder investigation. Sometimes the 178 00:10:43,965 --> 00:10:46,125 Speaker 2: lies are white lies, like the fact that somebody was 179 00:10:46,165 --> 00:10:49,565 Speaker 2: actually standing outside rather than inside in their kitchen, but 180 00:10:49,605 --> 00:10:51,245 Speaker 2: they don't want to tell the police that they were 181 00:10:51,245 --> 00:10:55,685 Speaker 2: eavesdropping and being nosy. Then they're the more serious lies, 182 00:10:56,405 --> 00:11:00,045 Speaker 2: lies about whether someone was sexually assaulted or not, Lies 183 00:11:00,085 --> 00:11:03,445 Speaker 2: about what actually happened to the victim or whether someone 184 00:11:03,485 --> 00:11:06,245 Speaker 2: else could have been involved. I really want to be 185 00:11:06,285 --> 00:11:09,445 Speaker 2: able to mentally file Rebecca's case into a cold case, file, 186 00:11:09,685 --> 00:11:12,805 Speaker 2: stamp solved on it, and move on move on to 187 00:11:12,845 --> 00:11:15,765 Speaker 2: other families and other people who want and need my help. 188 00:11:17,725 --> 00:11:20,765 Speaker 2: But a lot of the things about the confession don't 189 00:11:20,765 --> 00:11:26,445 Speaker 2: make sense, like the fact that Billy first said he 190 00:11:26,485 --> 00:11:30,445 Speaker 2: strangled Rebecca, then later told Larry that he didn't. He 191 00:11:30,485 --> 00:11:32,725 Speaker 2: first said that the crime scene was in the bedroom, 192 00:11:33,125 --> 00:11:35,685 Speaker 2: but later when the affidavit for arrest was written, it 193 00:11:35,765 --> 00:11:37,445 Speaker 2: reads simply that he caused her death. 194 00:11:38,165 --> 00:11:39,525 Speaker 1: All that detail was omitted. 195 00:11:40,405 --> 00:11:42,365 Speaker 2: Billy is claiming he was in the area to help 196 00:11:42,405 --> 00:11:45,325 Speaker 2: his family move back to Texas that weekend, but Jennifer 197 00:11:45,365 --> 00:11:48,325 Speaker 2: Buckolts and others have pointed out over the years that 198 00:11:48,365 --> 00:11:52,605 Speaker 2: Billy's brother Jeremy was unenrolled from school pretty suddenly. The 199 00:11:52,685 --> 00:11:54,965 Speaker 2: family did not even bother to book their U hauls 200 00:11:54,965 --> 00:11:58,925 Speaker 2: in advance, So was that move really pre planned or 201 00:11:58,965 --> 00:12:01,085 Speaker 2: did they need to leave town quickly for other reasons. 202 00:12:03,205 --> 00:12:06,565 Speaker 2: Billy did talk to one person after his arrest. She 203 00:12:06,645 --> 00:12:09,565 Speaker 2: wrote an article and printed an excerpt from their interview 204 00:12:09,645 --> 00:12:13,045 Speaker 2: in an online real estate magazine called next Door. That 205 00:12:13,125 --> 00:12:16,605 Speaker 2: interview was apparently set up by one of Rebecca's older sisters. 206 00:12:17,645 --> 00:12:21,005 Speaker 2: In the article, Billy told the reporter that his mother, Linda, 207 00:12:21,485 --> 00:12:25,405 Speaker 2: was reunited with Casey's grandfather, Claude McCullough Senior, who was 208 00:12:25,445 --> 00:12:30,045 Speaker 2: also her biological father when she was young. Billy was 209 00:12:30,205 --> 00:12:32,765 Speaker 2: very close to his mother growing up, but his father 210 00:12:32,925 --> 00:12:36,045 Speaker 2: was working far away from home, so as Billy grew up, 211 00:12:36,285 --> 00:12:39,125 Speaker 2: he apparently was fascinated by Claude McCullough and was very 212 00:12:39,125 --> 00:12:42,885 Speaker 2: close to Claude and his grandmother. Billy had told law 213 00:12:42,965 --> 00:12:46,165 Speaker 2: enforcement that he went back to Casey's trailer twice on Sunday, 214 00:12:46,685 --> 00:12:49,925 Speaker 2: but in the article there's even more detail. This time, 215 00:12:50,005 --> 00:12:51,685 Speaker 2: he seems to say he went back to the trailer 216 00:12:51,725 --> 00:12:54,645 Speaker 2: three times, once when Casey was there. That's the time 217 00:12:54,645 --> 00:12:57,485 Speaker 2: when he saw Rebecca come out the door. Then Billy 218 00:12:57,565 --> 00:13:00,005 Speaker 2: said he went back again but no one was home. 219 00:13:00,085 --> 00:13:02,205 Speaker 2: And then he said he went back later that night 220 00:13:02,525 --> 00:13:05,805 Speaker 2: to ask Casey if he could help load furniture. Hasey 221 00:13:05,845 --> 00:13:09,245 Speaker 2: said he was busy. Billy said before that he parked 222 00:13:09,245 --> 00:13:11,365 Speaker 2: his truck out in the woods to hide it, but 223 00:13:11,445 --> 00:13:15,005 Speaker 2: in this interview he says he parked it behind the house. Now, 224 00:13:15,045 --> 00:13:17,605 Speaker 2: this is the area where the back porches, cars and 225 00:13:17,605 --> 00:13:21,405 Speaker 2: trucks could pull up there, so if Billy's truck was there, 226 00:13:22,045 --> 00:13:25,165 Speaker 2: Rebecca could have seen the vehicle, so who was he 227 00:13:25,245 --> 00:13:28,725 Speaker 2: hiding the vehicle from, from Rebecca or from people on 228 00:13:28,765 --> 00:13:32,965 Speaker 2: the street. In the article, the writer explained that Billy 229 00:13:33,045 --> 00:13:36,045 Speaker 2: seemed to be hiding things about family members, people who 230 00:13:36,085 --> 00:13:39,245 Speaker 2: may have known about the murder. It reads quote a 231 00:13:39,285 --> 00:13:41,445 Speaker 2: direct question such as when did your mother know? 232 00:13:41,525 --> 00:13:42,165 Speaker 1: As deflected. 233 00:13:42,725 --> 00:13:44,885 Speaker 2: When William asked to speak to his brother and mother, 234 00:13:45,325 --> 00:13:49,205 Speaker 2: according to the article, Jeremy, his brother, was shocked, but Linda, 235 00:13:49,365 --> 00:13:52,445 Speaker 2: his mother, had no reaction. In the article, it states 236 00:13:52,485 --> 00:13:55,565 Speaker 2: that this is because he claimed that she was diabetic 237 00:13:55,605 --> 00:13:59,365 Speaker 2: and was in a trance end quote. According to the article, 238 00:13:59,445 --> 00:14:02,765 Speaker 2: when police contacted Linda Billy's mom in Oregon back in 239 00:14:02,765 --> 00:14:06,125 Speaker 2: twenty twenty and asked if he was there, she said 240 00:14:06,205 --> 00:14:08,605 Speaker 2: that Billy was out of the country, even though he 241 00:14:08,685 --> 00:14:12,565 Speaker 2: was already in Oregon. Later, according to media reports, she 242 00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:14,805 Speaker 2: claimed that this was because she wasn't sure if this 243 00:14:14,885 --> 00:14:19,685 Speaker 2: was a legitimate officer. I find that very hard to believe, 244 00:14:20,165 --> 00:14:23,645 Speaker 2: especially since after that phone call from the police, she 245 00:14:23,765 --> 00:14:27,285 Speaker 2: then reportedly contacted Billy and told him that the situation 246 00:14:27,445 --> 00:14:30,045 Speaker 2: needed to be dealt with. If she thought the officer 247 00:14:30,165 --> 00:14:34,005 Speaker 2: wasn't legit, why bother to reach out? And then there 248 00:14:34,045 --> 00:14:36,445 Speaker 2: are the cleaning supplies, the ones that were shown in 249 00:14:36,485 --> 00:14:40,085 Speaker 2: the crime scene photos. According to this article, Linda bought 250 00:14:40,125 --> 00:14:43,765 Speaker 2: those cleaning supplies at the request of Casey's father, which 251 00:14:43,765 --> 00:14:48,365 Speaker 2: apparently was part of their usual routine. This seems incredibly 252 00:14:48,405 --> 00:14:51,685 Speaker 2: odd to me. Why would Linda be buying all new 253 00:14:51,725 --> 00:14:54,725 Speaker 2: cleaning products for the trailer? And again, if she bought 254 00:14:54,765 --> 00:14:57,405 Speaker 2: them and took them inside, didn't she notice that there 255 00:14:57,445 --> 00:15:00,805 Speaker 2: was blood everywhere? When I was in court for the 256 00:15:00,805 --> 00:15:05,005 Speaker 2: pre trial hearing, Mike McNeil testified that Billy had communication 257 00:15:05,245 --> 00:15:08,605 Speaker 2: with Casey and his mother, Linda, and others about the 258 00:15:08,605 --> 00:15:09,885 Speaker 2: case and his arrest. 259 00:15:10,565 --> 00:15:11,445 Speaker 1: He didn't go. 260 00:15:11,365 --> 00:15:15,485 Speaker 2: Into more detail, unfortunately, But why would Billy specifically feel 261 00:15:15,485 --> 00:15:17,805 Speaker 2: the need to reach out to those people in that moment? 262 00:15:18,685 --> 00:15:21,805 Speaker 2: But if Billy didn't act alone, why would he insist 263 00:15:21,845 --> 00:15:25,245 Speaker 2: that he did. Billy has been caught in several inconsistent 264 00:15:25,285 --> 00:15:28,005 Speaker 2: statements so far that we know of, so why would 265 00:15:28,045 --> 00:15:31,325 Speaker 2: law enforcement accept his confession even if it's not consistent 266 00:15:31,365 --> 00:15:34,805 Speaker 2: with the crime scene photos. To get answers, I did 267 00:15:34,805 --> 00:15:38,085 Speaker 2: some research into false confessions. It turns out that false 268 00:15:38,165 --> 00:15:41,005 Speaker 2: confessions happen all the time for all kinds of reasons. 269 00:15:41,405 --> 00:15:44,485 Speaker 3: People always say, well, why would somebody ever confess to 270 00:15:44,525 --> 00:15:49,245 Speaker 3: a crime that they didn't do? And my comeback is, well, 271 00:15:49,245 --> 00:15:51,325 Speaker 3: why would you confess to a crime that you did to? 272 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:53,965 Speaker 3: I mean, doing both is pretty stupid. 273 00:15:55,165 --> 00:15:58,685 Speaker 2: This is Jim Traneum. He's a retired detective from the Washington, 274 00:15:58,765 --> 00:16:02,125 Speaker 2: D C. Metropolitan Police Department, where he spent twenty seven 275 00:16:02,205 --> 00:16:05,445 Speaker 2: years as a homicide detective, and now he's a consult 276 00:16:05,525 --> 00:16:08,805 Speaker 2: in the police practices, especially in the area of interrogation 277 00:16:08,925 --> 00:16:11,805 Speaker 2: and false confessions. I wanted to talk to him about 278 00:16:11,805 --> 00:16:14,565 Speaker 2: false confessions, how they happen, and what we can do 279 00:16:14,645 --> 00:16:16,205 Speaker 2: to prevent them. 280 00:16:16,525 --> 00:16:20,045 Speaker 3: The interrogation practices that we've been using for well over 281 00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:22,965 Speaker 3: forty years in this country have been very well established, 282 00:16:23,365 --> 00:16:26,045 Speaker 3: have been accepted by the courts. But just because they're 283 00:16:26,045 --> 00:16:28,965 Speaker 3: accepted by the courts doesn't mean that they're not problematic. 284 00:16:29,485 --> 00:16:35,245 Speaker 3: But they're designed to convince you that your best path 285 00:16:35,925 --> 00:16:38,965 Speaker 3: is to tell the detective what they want to hear. 286 00:16:39,685 --> 00:16:44,765 Speaker 3: And we do that pretty much by convincing you that 287 00:16:44,805 --> 00:16:47,525 Speaker 3: your conviction is going to be inevitable, that the judges 288 00:16:47,565 --> 00:16:50,125 Speaker 3: are going to look at you very badly. People, they're 289 00:16:50,125 --> 00:16:52,325 Speaker 3: not going to think very highly of you. You know, 290 00:16:52,445 --> 00:16:54,965 Speaker 3: jurors are going to really look down. But if you confess, 291 00:16:55,925 --> 00:17:00,085 Speaker 3: then you know, people will understand, people will be more sympathetic, 292 00:17:00,725 --> 00:17:04,565 Speaker 3: and there's all other kind of benefits that are kind 293 00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:08,765 Speaker 3: of insinuated in this process that makes the person believe 294 00:17:08,765 --> 00:17:10,725 Speaker 3: that their best like I said, their best option is 295 00:17:10,765 --> 00:17:12,725 Speaker 3: to tell the detective what they want to hear. 296 00:17:13,325 --> 00:17:13,565 Speaker 2: Now. 297 00:17:13,645 --> 00:17:17,845 Speaker 3: The thing about this process is that it's very very effective. 298 00:17:18,725 --> 00:17:22,245 Speaker 3: It does get a lot of good confessions. The problem 299 00:17:22,325 --> 00:17:26,125 Speaker 3: is is that it can also create the same mindset 300 00:17:26,205 --> 00:17:29,765 Speaker 3: inside of an innocent person who believes that, oh my god, 301 00:17:29,805 --> 00:17:32,925 Speaker 3: they're telling me that they have my fingerprints, where they 302 00:17:32,925 --> 00:17:36,005 Speaker 3: have a bunch of witnesses who saw me do this, 303 00:17:36,325 --> 00:17:38,925 Speaker 3: and that everybody's going to believe the witnesses and not me, 304 00:17:39,725 --> 00:17:43,165 Speaker 3: and my only out is to tell the detective, you know, 305 00:17:43,205 --> 00:17:45,965 Speaker 3: what they want to hear. Now, I've got to figure 306 00:17:45,965 --> 00:17:50,805 Speaker 3: out what that is. And so that's where contamination comes in. 307 00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:58,085 Speaker 3: As officers, we understand how contamination of physical evidence occurs 308 00:17:58,205 --> 00:18:00,045 Speaker 3: very well, and we take a lot of steps to 309 00:18:00,125 --> 00:18:03,965 Speaker 3: guard against that. However, when it comes to getting statement evidence, 310 00:18:04,005 --> 00:18:07,605 Speaker 3: not only from suspect but also for witnesses, we have 311 00:18:07,685 --> 00:18:11,365 Speaker 3: a very poor understanding of how to interview them in 312 00:18:11,405 --> 00:18:13,165 Speaker 3: such a way that that we can show that the 313 00:18:13,245 --> 00:18:17,205 Speaker 3: information is coming from them, it is not unintentionally being 314 00:18:17,285 --> 00:18:20,645 Speaker 3: fit to them by us. You have to be able 315 00:18:20,645 --> 00:18:25,685 Speaker 3: to show that that information came from the suspect and 316 00:18:25,765 --> 00:18:31,165 Speaker 3: not from the detective or another source or the podcast. Right, 317 00:18:31,245 --> 00:18:32,605 Speaker 3: I didn't that's what I'm interview. 318 00:18:32,685 --> 00:18:35,245 Speaker 2: But you know, I'm sure I did some of that myself, 319 00:18:35,245 --> 00:18:38,405 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to now figure out how to best 320 00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:38,925 Speaker 2: handle that. 321 00:18:39,765 --> 00:18:42,845 Speaker 3: Well, the thing about it is, especially in cases like this, 322 00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:48,045 Speaker 3: the likelihood of the person having new information, and this 323 00:18:48,165 --> 00:18:51,885 Speaker 3: is a goal standard. Does a person have new information 324 00:18:52,845 --> 00:18:58,245 Speaker 3: that the detectives did not know prior to the interrogation 325 00:18:58,725 --> 00:19:03,605 Speaker 3: that they could then go out and collaborate, such as 326 00:19:03,885 --> 00:19:07,965 Speaker 3: the location of the murder weapon, things along that line. Now, 327 00:19:08,485 --> 00:19:13,325 Speaker 3: physical cooboration is always the best. However, you could also 328 00:19:13,365 --> 00:19:16,245 Speaker 3: sometimes coroborate it through witnesses. But the problem is, of 329 00:19:16,245 --> 00:19:19,405 Speaker 3: course that they go back that might contaminate what they 330 00:19:19,445 --> 00:19:21,325 Speaker 3: might say, Yeah, well just got confessed and this is 331 00:19:21,325 --> 00:19:24,485 Speaker 3: what he said is just true? Oh yeah, that's true. 332 00:19:24,525 --> 00:19:27,365 Speaker 3: You know, you see that happen a lot. You know, 333 00:19:27,925 --> 00:19:32,485 Speaker 3: you could have a guilty suspect who gives a confession 334 00:19:32,525 --> 00:19:35,005 Speaker 3: that matches all of such, but the contamination is so 335 00:19:35,205 --> 00:19:38,605 Speaker 3: bad that you can't prove that it came from them, 336 00:19:39,565 --> 00:19:41,605 Speaker 3: and it made the confession worseless. 337 00:19:42,885 --> 00:19:46,725 Speaker 2: This stands out to me because Billy's confession about what 338 00:19:46,805 --> 00:19:50,125 Speaker 2: actually happened to Rebecca had no details in it that 339 00:19:50,125 --> 00:19:53,125 Speaker 2: could not have been found online. As I mentioned, we 340 00:19:53,285 --> 00:19:55,485 Speaker 2: know that he was reading stuff on the unsolved Murder 341 00:19:55,525 --> 00:19:58,045 Speaker 2: of Rebecca Gould community. We also know that he was 342 00:19:58,085 --> 00:20:00,605 Speaker 2: reading books about the case, and he was listening to 343 00:20:00,645 --> 00:20:05,765 Speaker 2: my podcast and other podcasts. Billy did have one new 344 00:20:05,765 --> 00:20:09,245 Speaker 2: detail that police didn't have for years. We had been 345 00:20:09,245 --> 00:20:12,565 Speaker 2: hearing that Rebecca had a black rolling suitcase and that 346 00:20:12,645 --> 00:20:15,845 Speaker 2: it had been missing from the crime scene. Billy told 347 00:20:15,845 --> 00:20:19,925 Speaker 2: investigators the location of that suitcase and then was able 348 00:20:19,965 --> 00:20:22,445 Speaker 2: to lead them to the exact spot in Izard County 349 00:20:22,445 --> 00:20:26,325 Speaker 2: where the suitcase was. So this does point to Billy 350 00:20:26,445 --> 00:20:30,165 Speaker 2: being involved in Rebecca's murder, but other parts of Billy's 351 00:20:30,165 --> 00:20:33,885 Speaker 2: confession don't make sense, especially when he talks about what 352 00:20:34,085 --> 00:20:38,005 Speaker 2: actually happened to Rebecca inside that trailer. There were several 353 00:20:38,005 --> 00:20:41,245 Speaker 2: inconsistencies in that confession, like the fact that Billy's timing 354 00:20:41,325 --> 00:20:45,285 Speaker 2: was wrong. As Jennifer Buckletz pointed out, the law enforcement 355 00:20:45,285 --> 00:20:48,645 Speaker 2: timeline has Rebecca driving Casey to work, then stopping at 356 00:20:48,685 --> 00:20:51,885 Speaker 2: the Possum Trot to buy that breakfast sandwich, then driving 357 00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:55,325 Speaker 2: the fifteen minutes back to Casey's trailer. Casey clocked in 358 00:20:55,365 --> 00:20:57,925 Speaker 2: at eight twelve on Monday morning, so that would put 359 00:20:57,965 --> 00:21:01,165 Speaker 2: Rebecca back at his place at around eight thirty. William 360 00:21:01,205 --> 00:21:04,325 Speaker 2: claims he was there at eight am. So if police 361 00:21:04,365 --> 00:21:07,445 Speaker 2: believed that Billy may have left details out of his confession, 362 00:21:08,005 --> 00:21:10,125 Speaker 2: or if they knew that there were details that didn't 363 00:21:10,125 --> 00:21:13,005 Speaker 2: make sense or fit the physical evidence, why would they 364 00:21:13,045 --> 00:21:16,125 Speaker 2: accept the confession. We're dealing with a man who we 365 00:21:16,365 --> 00:21:20,205 Speaker 2: know has been lined everyone for eighteen years, and who 366 00:21:20,205 --> 00:21:23,485 Speaker 2: has already told at least two different stories about what 367 00:21:23,565 --> 00:21:27,325 Speaker 2: really happened to Rebecca Gould. So Billy did provide law 368 00:21:27,405 --> 00:21:30,405 Speaker 2: enforcement with details about the crime scene cleanup that weren't 369 00:21:30,405 --> 00:21:33,725 Speaker 2: known before, but he didn't add any new details about 370 00:21:33,725 --> 00:21:37,445 Speaker 2: Rebecca's murder that the police didn't already have. That, plus 371 00:21:37,485 --> 00:21:40,245 Speaker 2: the fact that his confession doesn't match the physical evidence, 372 00:21:40,685 --> 00:21:44,445 Speaker 2: that raises real doubts to me that Billy's confession has 373 00:21:44,485 --> 00:21:51,605 Speaker 2: been contaminated in some way. One big question in our 374 00:21:51,645 --> 00:21:56,005 Speaker 2: gray area is what's the exact relationship between Billy Miller 375 00:21:56,085 --> 00:21:57,085 Speaker 2: and Casey McCullough. 376 00:21:57,805 --> 00:21:59,485 Speaker 1: We know that they're first cousins. 377 00:22:00,845 --> 00:22:03,965 Speaker 2: To get some more insight on Billy's family tree, I 378 00:22:04,005 --> 00:22:07,005 Speaker 2: talked to Miranda Ward. She's an next girlfriend of Casey's. 379 00:22:07,605 --> 00:22:10,205 Speaker 2: They started dating in twenty ten and went out for 380 00:22:10,245 --> 00:22:12,845 Speaker 2: about a year and a half. The first time that 381 00:22:12,885 --> 00:22:15,285 Speaker 2: I met Miranda was actually at Crime Con in Austin 382 00:22:15,325 --> 00:22:17,965 Speaker 2: a few years back. She came to my talk where 383 00:22:17,965 --> 00:22:20,725 Speaker 2: I mentioned Rebecca's case and she was sitting with George 384 00:22:20,765 --> 00:22:23,485 Speaker 2: Jared and Jennifer Buckoltz. We all ended up going out 385 00:22:23,485 --> 00:22:26,285 Speaker 2: to dinner and drinks, she told me at the time, 386 00:22:26,325 --> 00:22:28,765 Speaker 2: and she still says she can't stop thinking about the 387 00:22:28,805 --> 00:22:32,045 Speaker 2: fact that she was dating someone and completely trusted someone 388 00:22:32,325 --> 00:22:34,965 Speaker 2: who she later suspected could have been involved in a 389 00:22:35,005 --> 00:22:35,725 Speaker 2: brutal murder. 390 00:22:40,885 --> 00:22:43,925 Speaker 1: What was Casey like? What was he like as a boyfriend? 391 00:22:45,605 --> 00:22:51,485 Speaker 5: A was very very sweet and doting. You know, he 392 00:22:51,565 --> 00:22:54,645 Speaker 5: paid attention, but you know, we only dated for like 393 00:22:54,685 --> 00:22:57,565 Speaker 5: a year and a half, maybe maybe almost two. Her 394 00:22:57,565 --> 00:23:04,165 Speaker 5: breakup was it was it's kind of weird. But I worked, 395 00:23:04,205 --> 00:23:06,965 Speaker 5: you know, waiting tables at Applebee's and we were open 396 00:23:07,045 --> 00:23:09,765 Speaker 5: until two in the morning, so that smoking area kind 397 00:23:09,765 --> 00:23:12,005 Speaker 5: of turned into a little, you know, party spot, and 398 00:23:12,965 --> 00:23:15,525 Speaker 5: you know, we closed down and he would hang out 399 00:23:15,725 --> 00:23:19,965 Speaker 5: and you know it help helped me out at work 400 00:23:20,605 --> 00:23:23,805 Speaker 5: or you know, just be there. Yeah. He was romantic, 401 00:23:23,925 --> 00:23:26,125 Speaker 5: I guess the word is. And we were both you know, 402 00:23:26,365 --> 00:23:27,725 Speaker 5: artsy people. 403 00:23:28,965 --> 00:23:30,405 Speaker 2: And we got along really well. 404 00:23:30,765 --> 00:23:35,285 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, it's been an emotional roller coaster. 405 00:23:36,045 --> 00:23:38,885 Speaker 2: Miranda has been active in Jennifer Bucklets and George Jared's 406 00:23:38,885 --> 00:23:42,685 Speaker 2: Facebook group. She's actually the one that told them Billy 407 00:23:42,725 --> 00:23:45,645 Speaker 2: Miller was Casey's cousin when he first joined the group. 408 00:23:45,845 --> 00:23:47,365 Speaker 1: How did you figure out that William? 409 00:23:47,405 --> 00:23:49,605 Speaker 2: I mean, did you know William's name already or how 410 00:23:49,605 --> 00:23:51,085 Speaker 2: did you figure out he was Casey's cousin? 411 00:23:52,165 --> 00:23:56,965 Speaker 5: Right? So Casey had told me he had cousins in Texas, 412 00:23:57,005 --> 00:23:59,045 Speaker 5: in South Texas, right, because he told me he's from 413 00:23:59,125 --> 00:24:02,005 Speaker 5: Baytown and he liked it there. It sounds like he 414 00:24:02,085 --> 00:24:07,325 Speaker 5: really enjoyed it, yet he really liked his grandparents and yeah, 415 00:24:07,365 --> 00:24:10,245 Speaker 5: so the obituary is where I started. You know, that 416 00:24:10,365 --> 00:24:13,805 Speaker 5: was gold the twenty eighteen when Claude mcculloy passed away. 417 00:24:14,725 --> 00:24:17,405 Speaker 5: So without the obituary, we wouldn't have been able to 418 00:24:17,405 --> 00:24:21,365 Speaker 5: find Linda, right, Yeah, So I just started finding any 419 00:24:21,405 --> 00:24:25,085 Speaker 5: obituaries I could, and then I would start at Casey's 420 00:24:25,085 --> 00:24:28,645 Speaker 5: Facebook and go from there and just start matching. And 421 00:24:29,325 --> 00:24:34,045 Speaker 5: then I finally found Linda. And I was looking for William, 422 00:24:34,485 --> 00:24:39,245 Speaker 5: but I kept seeing Billy and neither. He didn't have 423 00:24:39,565 --> 00:24:43,325 Speaker 5: his profile picture of him. He just had a cartoon character. 424 00:24:43,845 --> 00:24:45,805 Speaker 5: I think it was a Martian man hit Ale of 425 00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:49,605 Speaker 5: Goals and you know, weird kind of art stuff. Not 426 00:24:49,805 --> 00:24:51,685 Speaker 5: a lot of I I want to say, there was 427 00:24:51,685 --> 00:24:55,645 Speaker 5: maybe two or three actual pictures of himself. He had 428 00:24:55,645 --> 00:24:57,965 Speaker 5: a couple. He has a couple, you know, one of 429 00:24:58,005 --> 00:25:01,045 Speaker 5: them got shut down, which was his most active. But 430 00:25:01,125 --> 00:25:03,965 Speaker 5: he had a couple of profiles and then you know, 431 00:25:04,125 --> 00:25:06,765 Speaker 5: obviously it's interesting because he's in the Philippines and stuff. 432 00:25:07,245 --> 00:25:13,725 Speaker 5: And then he gets on the Facebook page and Jennifer's like, 433 00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:17,045 Speaker 5: you said, this name, who is this? Said it's a cousin. 434 00:25:17,405 --> 00:25:20,445 Speaker 5: She said no. I said yes, And I have to 435 00:25:20,565 --> 00:25:23,045 Speaker 5: like paint it out for her a couple of times 436 00:25:23,085 --> 00:25:24,805 Speaker 5: and she's said, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense 437 00:25:25,045 --> 00:25:27,405 Speaker 5: no way, but you know, she's it's hard to believe. 438 00:25:27,845 --> 00:25:33,165 Speaker 2: Yeah, so will you grow up together knowing each other? 439 00:25:34,165 --> 00:25:36,725 Speaker 5: Yes, they knew of each other. You know, they were 440 00:25:36,765 --> 00:25:41,565 Speaker 5: bury that's their William's grandparents. Also, they lived a couple 441 00:25:41,605 --> 00:25:43,845 Speaker 5: of hours from each other on the close to Texas 442 00:25:45,565 --> 00:25:49,125 Speaker 5: before Casey moved. And I want to say he was 443 00:25:49,165 --> 00:25:55,165 Speaker 5: like seven eight when he moved, right, so, and then 444 00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:57,885 Speaker 5: you know they would travel to hang out with him. 445 00:25:57,885 --> 00:25:58,805 Speaker 4: I'm sure. 446 00:26:01,045 --> 00:26:03,205 Speaker 5: You know if they were close in their teenage years. 447 00:26:03,285 --> 00:26:05,645 Speaker 5: I don't know, but I have no doubts that they 448 00:26:05,645 --> 00:26:10,925 Speaker 5: were tearing up that land on or something. You know, Yeah, 449 00:26:12,045 --> 00:26:15,445 Speaker 5: you know, because not only is that their uncle and cousins, 450 00:26:15,445 --> 00:26:16,405 Speaker 5: it's also grandparents. 451 00:26:17,085 --> 00:26:20,845 Speaker 2: So appreciate you speaking to talking to me because I'm 452 00:26:20,885 --> 00:26:22,485 Speaker 2: I'll pray I have more questions at some point. But 453 00:26:23,085 --> 00:26:24,765 Speaker 2: it would make me feel a lot better if I 454 00:26:24,765 --> 00:26:26,685 Speaker 2: believe that William did I have alone, because then I'd 455 00:26:26,725 --> 00:26:28,845 Speaker 2: be like, Okay, it's done, it's over good. 456 00:26:28,645 --> 00:26:31,005 Speaker 1: Because I don't care you know who did it. 457 00:26:31,045 --> 00:26:33,605 Speaker 2: I just I just feel like this confession is just 458 00:26:34,205 --> 00:26:36,565 Speaker 2: bullshit parts of it or bullshit, and I can't shake 459 00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:39,285 Speaker 2: that feeling. And then yeah, I see the more it 460 00:26:39,325 --> 00:26:41,125 Speaker 2: looks like it is. And you know, I'm just trying 461 00:26:41,125 --> 00:26:43,325 Speaker 2: to figure out a way to get all. 462 00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:44,885 Speaker 1: The answers to the best of my bility. 463 00:26:44,925 --> 00:26:49,685 Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely, I couldn't shake it either. And I've never 464 00:26:49,845 --> 00:26:54,845 Speaker 5: believed that who they, however this happened, anybody was alone. 465 00:26:54,885 --> 00:26:58,245 Speaker 5: I don't believe anybody was alone. I originally believed that 466 00:26:58,365 --> 00:27:03,125 Speaker 5: his family knew his immediate family, and enough there anyone 467 00:27:03,165 --> 00:27:07,485 Speaker 5: involved in his family. They have figured out way to 468 00:27:07,485 --> 00:27:10,285 Speaker 5: make it all work. I think that if they weren't 469 00:27:10,445 --> 00:27:13,405 Speaker 5: warned that he would have been I don't think that 470 00:27:13,445 --> 00:27:15,245 Speaker 5: he could have done any of this by himself. 471 00:27:15,485 --> 00:27:17,565 Speaker 2: What I can't get is that that the physical evidence 472 00:27:17,605 --> 00:27:19,325 Speaker 2: just doesn't match William's confession at all. 473 00:27:19,365 --> 00:27:20,565 Speaker 1: And I can't figure out why they or not. 474 00:27:20,565 --> 00:27:21,765 Speaker 2: I mean, I kind of know why they or not 475 00:27:21,805 --> 00:27:23,805 Speaker 2: doing anything, but it's just crazy. 476 00:27:25,005 --> 00:27:28,805 Speaker 5: The physical evidence is harder for me to understand. And 477 00:27:28,885 --> 00:27:34,245 Speaker 5: I think that William got ahead of hisself, and like, 478 00:27:35,165 --> 00:27:37,045 Speaker 5: I don't know, there's a family that I can compare 479 00:27:37,165 --> 00:27:39,965 Speaker 5: them to in my mind, and it has not failed 480 00:27:39,965 --> 00:27:44,845 Speaker 5: me so far. They're just very you know, as long 481 00:27:44,885 --> 00:27:46,485 Speaker 5: as we've banded together, everything's. 482 00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:48,525 Speaker 2: Going to be Okay, Yeah, that's true. 483 00:27:49,485 --> 00:27:52,085 Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know, I could see him just getting 484 00:27:52,125 --> 00:27:54,285 Speaker 5: into some shady stuff just because they think they can 485 00:27:54,325 --> 00:27:59,565 Speaker 5: get away with it. And I wonder, I still wonder 486 00:27:59,645 --> 00:28:03,645 Speaker 5: if William went and got his mom and got her involved, 487 00:28:04,205 --> 00:28:08,885 Speaker 5: or she was already there and off. I can't wait 488 00:28:08,925 --> 00:28:10,005 Speaker 5: to get the case filed. 489 00:28:11,685 --> 00:28:14,205 Speaker 2: And that's the next big hurdle, and that's what we're 490 00:28:14,365 --> 00:28:17,365 Speaker 2: you know, I know you followed a Foyer request, I 491 00:28:17,405 --> 00:28:21,405 Speaker 2: did two, and you know, and Larry is supposedly talking 492 00:28:21,405 --> 00:28:24,525 Speaker 2: to the prosecutors this week and we'll see what happens there. 493 00:28:27,525 --> 00:28:30,925 Speaker 2: Rebecca's father, doctor Larry Gould, has a meeting set with 494 00:28:30,965 --> 00:28:34,805 Speaker 2: the prosecutor Eric Cant on November thirtieth. As part of 495 00:28:34,805 --> 00:28:38,285 Speaker 2: Billy Miller's plea agreement. Larry was asked if he had 496 00:28:38,325 --> 00:28:42,045 Speaker 2: any requests. One of the conditions that Larry set was 497 00:28:42,045 --> 00:28:45,125 Speaker 2: that Rebecca's case file be returned to him within a 498 00:28:45,165 --> 00:28:48,445 Speaker 2: ten to thirty day period, and Eric Cant agreed to 499 00:28:48,485 --> 00:28:53,725 Speaker 2: these terms. Larry's plan was to get the case file, 500 00:28:53,845 --> 00:28:56,885 Speaker 2: thoroughly review it, and then at that meeting on November thirtieth, 501 00:28:57,445 --> 00:29:02,485 Speaker 2: to ask Eric Cant some questions about inconsistencies but a 502 00:29:02,525 --> 00:29:06,965 Speaker 2: few days before the scheduled meeting, right before Thanksgiving, Larry 503 00:29:07,045 --> 00:29:09,005 Speaker 2: let me know that he does not yet have the 504 00:29:09,045 --> 00:29:13,965 Speaker 2: case file. Apparently, the Prosecutor's office texted Larry. They said 505 00:29:13,965 --> 00:29:16,165 Speaker 2: that they had not even gotten the case file back 506 00:29:16,165 --> 00:29:18,765 Speaker 2: from the Arkansas State Police yet. They said that they're 507 00:29:18,805 --> 00:29:20,925 Speaker 2: waiting for it and there's pretty much nothing they can 508 00:29:20,965 --> 00:29:25,365 Speaker 2: do until they get it. I find myself getting very 509 00:29:25,365 --> 00:29:28,725 Speaker 2: frustrated on Larry's behalf, especially when I see a message 510 00:29:28,805 --> 00:29:31,605 Speaker 2: from Eric Hanson's assistant saying that he'll be out of 511 00:29:31,605 --> 00:29:34,045 Speaker 2: the office all week and won't be checking or responding 512 00:29:34,045 --> 00:29:39,005 Speaker 2: to emails. The tone in Larry's letters, while it has 513 00:29:39,085 --> 00:29:43,925 Speaker 2: always been unfailingly polite and very kind, is also getting 514 00:29:43,965 --> 00:29:47,525 Speaker 2: more frustrated. And I can absolutely understand why. This is 515 00:29:47,565 --> 00:29:50,685 Speaker 2: a grieving father who has already waited twenty years to 516 00:29:50,685 --> 00:29:54,565 Speaker 2: see justice done in his daughter's case. They promised him 517 00:29:54,605 --> 00:29:57,685 Speaker 2: the case file within a certain timeframe, and now they 518 00:29:57,685 --> 00:30:01,685 Speaker 2: appeared to be going back on that promise. Now they 519 00:30:01,725 --> 00:30:04,125 Speaker 2: have said that the Arkansas State Police need to make 520 00:30:04,205 --> 00:30:08,165 Speaker 2: redactions to the case case file, which presumably would involve 521 00:30:08,205 --> 00:30:12,645 Speaker 2: blacking out certain information. My question is, in the age 522 00:30:12,725 --> 00:30:16,605 Speaker 2: of redaction software. How long is this process supposed to take? 523 00:30:17,005 --> 00:30:19,765 Speaker 2: Surely ten to thirty days should be an ample time frame. 524 00:30:22,165 --> 00:30:26,325 Speaker 2: After eighteen years in a highly publicized case, I can 525 00:30:26,445 --> 00:30:28,885 Speaker 2: understand why the ASP would want to make an arrest, 526 00:30:29,085 --> 00:30:32,605 Speaker 2: take that confession, and close the case. And again, I 527 00:30:32,725 --> 00:30:36,365 Speaker 2: believe Special Agent Mike McNeil did some great police work here, 528 00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:41,645 Speaker 2: but I don't think it's over. As for my own 529 00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:45,005 Speaker 2: personal gray area, I can accept that I may never 530 00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,125 Speaker 2: know what Billy's true motives were, or if he meant 531 00:30:48,165 --> 00:30:51,845 Speaker 2: to sexually assault Rebecca, or exactly what she said to him. 532 00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:52,845 Speaker 1: But I can't. 533 00:30:52,605 --> 00:30:54,805 Speaker 2: Accept the thought that there may have been other people 534 00:30:54,805 --> 00:30:58,205 Speaker 2: involved in Rebecca's murder, or people who covered it up 535 00:30:58,405 --> 00:31:02,085 Speaker 2: or even knew about it and did nothing, people who 536 00:31:02,165 --> 00:31:07,765 Speaker 2: so far have escaped Justiceine Hounsend. This is Helen Gone. 537 00:31:11,445 --> 00:31:14,485 Speaker 2: Helen Gone is a production of School of Humans and iHeartMedia. 538 00:31:15,125 --> 00:31:19,565 Speaker 2: Our producer is Gabby Watts. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, 539 00:31:19,685 --> 00:31:23,445 Speaker 2: Brandon Barr and Els Crowley. Music is by Ben Sale 540 00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:27,445 Speaker 2: Special thanks to season one producers Taylor Church and James Morrison. 541 00:31:37,885 --> 00:31:44,365 Speaker 1: School of Humans. School of Humans