WEBVTT - Engineering the Future of Fusion 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.076 Pushkin. When did you get the fusion bug? When'd you 0:00:23.116 --> 0:00:24.236 fall in love with fusion? 0:00:24.796 --> 0:00:28.116 It probably goes back to middle school or before, you know, 0:00:28.236 --> 0:00:29.836 and when a lot of kids would go out and 0:00:30.196 --> 0:00:31.996 play on the playground, I'd go to the library and 0:00:32.036 --> 0:00:36.116 read about particle accelerators and fusion reactors, and so, you. 0:00:36.116 --> 0:00:38.156 Know, I think I think the bug was that pretty early. 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:42.036 This is Greg Pifer. He's the co founder and CEO 0:00:42.156 --> 0:00:43.676 of a company called Shine. 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:46.596 And I watched shows like Star Trek and you know, 0:00:46.676 --> 0:00:49.516 certainly even like Star Trek the Next Generation where my 0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:51.036 moral compass was set. H. 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:54.596 Yeah, So like, tell me the fusion dream. I mean, 0:00:54.636 --> 0:00:56.636 we'll get to like why. It's going to take a 0:00:56.636 --> 0:00:59.556 while and it's hard, but just like, why is fusion 0:00:59.836 --> 0:01:00.476 the dream? 0:01:00.916 --> 0:01:01.116 Yeah? 0:01:01.156 --> 0:01:03.556 So fusion essentially, it like to me, it represents a 0:01:03.676 --> 0:01:06.436 level up moment for humanity. When we can commercially unlock it, 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:09.556 our species will be changed forever. And it's very similar. 0:01:09.556 --> 0:01:11.636 It's very akin to when we first started to access 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:12.996 chemical energy through fire. 0:01:13.236 --> 0:01:14.876 So I thought you were going to say fossil fields. 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:17.276 We're just saying that's bigger than fossil fuels. It's fire, 0:01:17.636 --> 0:01:19.876 it's it's biggest fire. Yeah, so it's not going to 0:01:19.916 --> 0:01:21.836 happen for a long time. But like, what does the 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:23.796 world look like when we get to the fusion dream? 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:27.476 Yes, so as technology continues to improve, energy becomes cheaper 0:01:27.476 --> 0:01:27.916 and cheaper. 0:01:28.236 --> 0:01:29.556 Fuel is no longer an issue. 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:33.036 So fundamentally, today fuel is the issue that would prevent 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:35.276 us from making energy super cheap. We just have to 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:37.276 continue to work to extract fusionis I have that problem? 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:41.276 So technology gets higher, the reactors get cheaper, and and 0:01:41.436 --> 0:01:44.196 fusion becomes super cheap. Now we can solve problems that 0:01:44.236 --> 0:01:46.716 we couldn't solve before. You know, we can we can 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:50.396 desalinate water on a massive scale, like we can. You know, 0:01:50.436 --> 0:01:53.396 we can pull out minerals from the Earth very very carefully. 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:57.236 We can go into space and colonize other planets. We 0:01:57.276 --> 0:01:59.916 can make anti matter, right and perhaps have an energy 0:01:59.956 --> 0:02:03.036 source that allows us to go to other stars like 0:02:03.236 --> 0:02:03.916 Star Trek. 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:05.076 Yeah, exactly right. 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:07.996 So that's that's that's always the secret little motivation behind 0:02:07.996 --> 0:02:08.596 the scenes. 0:02:08.716 --> 0:02:10.876 I mean, also, I have a three year old daughter, 0:02:10.956 --> 0:02:12.556 right like, and I want to give her a world 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:14.076 that's okay to live in. 0:02:20.556 --> 0:02:22.996 I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem? The 0:02:23.036 --> 0:02:25.076 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:02:25.156 --> 0:02:29.956 make technological progress. People who are into technological progress and 0:02:29.996 --> 0:02:33.916 who dream big tend to be into fusion, a kind 0:02:33.956 --> 0:02:37.556 of nuclear power that could be safer and cheaper than fission, 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.516 which is the way we get nuclear power now. By 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:44.276 the way, as you probably know, fusion is fusing atomic 0:02:44.356 --> 0:02:48.436 nuclei together and fission is splitting them apart. People have 0:02:48.476 --> 0:02:53.076 been working on fusion power for decades, and reliable economic 0:02:53.116 --> 0:02:57.116 fusion power is still probably decades away, But in the 0:02:57.156 --> 0:03:00.676 past several years, billions of dollars have flowed into a 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:04.196 handful of fusion startups that are using different technologies to 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:08.276 try to make fusion power work. My guest today, Greg Pifer, 0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:11.716 is definitely on team fusion. He's been working on it 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:16.116 for decades. But with his company Shine, he's taking a 0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:19.316 different approach. Rather than going straight to the dream of 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:23.156 using fusion to create energy, Jine's taking baby steps, or 0:03:23.196 --> 0:03:26.356 at least mid sized steps. The company is using fusion 0:03:26.396 --> 0:03:29.036 to enter markets that are easier to compete in than 0:03:29.116 --> 0:03:32.636 the market for energy. As you'll hear, Shine has already 0:03:32.716 --> 0:03:35.596 used fusion to get into the business of scanning jet 0:03:35.676 --> 0:03:38.956 engine blades, and the company will soon be in the 0:03:38.996 --> 0:03:42.476 healthcare business as well. Later in the interview we'll talk 0:03:42.476 --> 0:03:45.956 about all of that and about how Greg hopes those 0:03:45.996 --> 0:03:49.956 businesses will eventually lead to that big fusion dream of cheap, 0:03:50.036 --> 0:03:53.996 abundant power. But to start, we talked about how Greg 0:03:54.076 --> 0:03:56.716 went from being a kid thinking about star Trek to 0:03:56.916 --> 0:04:00.396 a grown man starting a fusion company, and in particular 0:04:00.516 --> 0:04:03.476 about how that path led Greg to take really a 0:04:03.596 --> 0:04:07.476 very different approach than that taken by other people building 0:04:07.556 --> 0:04:08.516 fusion companies. 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:11.676 I took a class actually in college that was taught 0:04:11.676 --> 0:04:14.876 by two very inspiring people, one of whom ran something 0:04:14.916 --> 0:04:17.956 called the Fusion Technology Institute at the University of Wisconsin, 0:04:17.996 --> 0:04:20.516 and another one named Harrison Schmidt, who walked on the Moon. 0:04:21.356 --> 0:04:23.596 And they were teaching a class about going into space 0:04:23.676 --> 0:04:26.516 and recovering resources, and recovering fusion fuel was one of 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:29.116 the key resources they thought we could extract from from space, 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:32.276 in particular the Moon. And so I got super excited 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:35.356 about fusion because those fuels are if you burn them, 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:36.836 you don't get nuclear waste. 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:39.796 So the promise of nuclear energy without nuclear waste. 0:04:39.556 --> 0:04:41.356 And these people were doing it like on the front 0:04:41.436 --> 0:04:43.196 edge of it got me really excited. 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:46.076 I actually went to the Moon to bring it back. 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:49.276 Right, right, Like, these people have done hard things, so 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.716 I'm going to go learn with them. Yeah, and so 0:04:51.756 --> 0:04:54.156 that got me into fusion. But you know, for me, 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:56.396 it was a different experience. And if I had done 0:04:56.396 --> 0:04:58.716 a physics space program in fusion. 0:04:59.036 --> 0:05:01.476 Like more practical, more hands on, is that that? 0:05:01.716 --> 0:05:03.596 Yeah, this was an engineering program. 0:05:03.676 --> 0:05:06.596 And the Fusion Technology Institute, which I joined, its mission 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:10.676 was to design viable fusion reactors. It was to say, 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:13.676 let's assume the physics challenges are overcome, how would you 0:05:13.676 --> 0:05:14.756 build a real system? 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:18.396 And that's where over the next few years, I just. 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:22.676 Became a bit depressed, frankly, because even if you master 0:05:22.796 --> 0:05:27.076 the physics, it became really clear that the challenge of 0:05:27.076 --> 0:05:31.076 commercializing and making heat for five cents per kilo whatot hour, 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:33.276 which is sort of the going rate for it, I 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:33.956 couldn't see. 0:05:33.836 --> 0:05:34.436 A way to do that. 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:37.516 And it was because you're taking some of the most 0:05:37.556 --> 0:05:40.996 exotic materials ever developed by humans and putting them in 0:05:40.996 --> 0:05:44.476 the harshest environments ever created by humans, and they don't 0:05:44.476 --> 0:05:48.676 live very long, and they're super expensive to make, and 0:05:48.756 --> 0:05:51.636 so the idea that we could go straight to five 0:05:51.676 --> 0:05:53.076 cents per kilo whatt hour, at least when I was 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:56.556 in school, seemed far fetched. 0:05:56.916 --> 0:05:59.636 So that it's sort of a technoeconomic problem you're thinking of, 0:05:59.836 --> 0:06:02.556 not just the technical side, but if people are actually 0:06:02.636 --> 0:06:05.196 going to use it, it has to be price competitive. 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:06.316 Yeah, exactly. 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:09.276 Okay, so you get sad. You get sad because as 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:11.396 your Star Trek dream doesn't seem like it's going to 0:06:11.476 --> 0:06:14.556 come true. And then, as I understand it, you go 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:16.756 to a party and you have your big idea. Is 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:17.276 that true? 0:06:17.876 --> 0:06:18.836 That is the history. 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:20.756 It was a party at my house and we were 0:06:20.756 --> 0:06:23.596 thinking about well, I mean, most people weren't thinking about this, 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:25.916 but I had been working on this problem earlier in 0:06:25.916 --> 0:06:27.716 the day, so it was already kind of in my head. 0:06:28.276 --> 0:06:31.316 And it came down to our research. You know. 0:06:31.556 --> 0:06:33.916 I had done work on a specific technology at the 0:06:33.996 --> 0:06:36.596 UW where we were trying to make small fusion devices, 0:06:36.796 --> 0:06:38.396 and the idea is that there were a number of 0:06:38.436 --> 0:06:41.156 applications you could use them for and they didn't work 0:06:41.236 --> 0:06:41.676 very well. 0:06:42.396 --> 0:06:45.356 And one of the reasons we discovered they didn't work very. 0:06:45.196 --> 0:06:49.156 Well was we were trying to collide these nuclei in 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:51.756 the same space that we were trying to speed them up. 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:54.476 Okay, so you just shoot them really fast into each 0:06:54.516 --> 0:06:55.036 other as the. 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:57.716 Basic Yeah, but the problem is, like, if you're trying 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.716 to make something go fast in a highly collisional space 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:03.836 where it's running into stuff a lot, it can't really 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:06.236 speed up. It's banging into stuff and losing energy all 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:09.676 the time. And if you take away that the target 0:07:09.716 --> 0:07:12.196 material so that you can accelerate them, then it's not 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:14.276 colliding very much and you don't get a lot of 0:07:14.276 --> 0:07:16.036 fusion reactions. So you kind of had to operate in 0:07:16.076 --> 0:07:19.156 this worst of both worlds space, and you know, it 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:21.436 was like the revelation was just like, well, why don't 0:07:21.436 --> 0:07:23.876 we accelerate in one place and collide in another place? 0:07:24.516 --> 0:07:24.676 Yeah? 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:24.956 I was. 0:07:25.036 --> 0:07:26.236 I was at one point. 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:28.356 There were all kinds of people standing around with drinks, 0:07:28.356 --> 0:07:31.356 and I was sitting in one of our recliners my laptop, 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:34.996 punching numbers into it, and I just actually built a 0:07:35.036 --> 0:07:37.956 really quick model to just see what the fusion rate 0:07:37.996 --> 0:07:40.916 would do if we did that in theory, and the 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:43.636 numbers came out amazing, like actually it was like, you know, 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:46.276 a thousand times higher than the output we were getting 0:07:46.316 --> 0:07:49.596 from our university experiment, and so, you know, like I 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:52.556 quickly disengaged from the party. I called my former advisor 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:54.596 and I'm like, hey, you know if we did this 0:07:54.716 --> 0:07:56.676 like the math, and he was like, oh, okay, that's 0:07:56.716 --> 0:07:58.636 really cool, Like what do you want me to do? 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:00.796 And I was like, I don't know yet. I got 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:02.196 to figure this out, but I think I'm going to 0:08:02.236 --> 0:08:02.996 start a company to. 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:04.516 Go do this. 0:08:04.996 --> 0:08:08.116 Were you sober, I probably had had. 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:08.996 A couple drinks by then. 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:11.196 Actually, so it's amazing that I got the math right, 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:13.236 but I did, or maybe it helped. 0:08:13.316 --> 0:08:16.036 Maybe there's like a curve right, maybe there's an optimal 0:08:16.116 --> 0:08:16.916 number of efficts. 0:08:17.436 --> 0:08:19.396 There certainly is when it comes to bowling. So why 0:08:19.436 --> 0:08:20.676 not nuclear physics as well? 0:08:21.116 --> 0:08:25.036 Yes, so you have this idea. When you have this idea, 0:08:25.516 --> 0:08:28.956 do you think, oh, I've solved fusion energy. 0:08:29.436 --> 0:08:30.596 This physics revelation. 0:08:31.276 --> 0:08:35.796 It doesn't overcome the technoeconomic challenge of fusion energy that 0:08:35.836 --> 0:08:39.316 I already had. And so that was already like I 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:41.956 had already moved past that, and I was trying to 0:08:41.996 --> 0:08:43.676 see if there were ways, like what I had put 0:08:43.676 --> 0:08:46.276 in the back of my head, where are there ways 0:08:46.316 --> 0:08:48.716 you can make use of fusion, you know that where 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:51.196 you might get paid more for the reaction then you 0:08:51.196 --> 0:08:52.196 get paid for energy. 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:55.116 So tell me about having this idea of like, oh, 0:08:55.236 --> 0:08:58.916 maybe there's a way to commercialize fusion to do something 0:08:58.956 --> 0:09:00.276 other than generate energy. 0:09:00.476 --> 0:09:03.076 Yeah, So two formative experiences. 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:07.916 One, my advisor at the Fusion Technology Institute had identified 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:11.196 a family, like, you know, a couple dozen probably applications 0:09:11.236 --> 0:09:14.116 where you could use fusion for non electric applications, and 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:17.076 they hadn't really done the economic analysis on any of them, 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:19.636 but they just said, here are some things you can 0:09:19.636 --> 0:09:23.116 do with fusion reactions, and those included things like making 0:09:23.156 --> 0:09:27.236 medical isotopes or detecting hidden material or you know, contraband material, 0:09:27.476 --> 0:09:29.236 detecting nuclear weapons, stuff like that. 0:09:29.316 --> 0:09:31.676 So, to be clear, those are things that people are 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:34.116 already doing out in the world, right There is a 0:09:34.156 --> 0:09:36.916 market for those things. These are existing products. They're just 0:09:36.956 --> 0:09:39.756 not using fusion too exactly. 0:09:40.116 --> 0:09:43.716 Yeah, super definable markets, you know, and there are supply 0:09:43.796 --> 0:09:46.116 chain issues, and it's a good market to get into 0:09:46.156 --> 0:09:47.716 if you had an alternative way to make things. 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:49.396 Okay, So that was interesting. 0:09:49.516 --> 0:09:52.236 And then the other formative experience for me, it was 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:54.276 Actually we had started another company when I was in 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:56.756 grad school that had nothing to do with any of this, 0:09:57.316 --> 0:09:59.756 but we were just recovering data from crashed hard drives. 0:09:59.996 --> 0:10:02.076 One of my roommates had a hard drive crash. We 0:10:02.116 --> 0:10:04.636 looked online. All the options sucked. It was like, pay 0:10:04.676 --> 0:10:06.556 us two thousand dollars and we'll try, but maybe we 0:10:06.596 --> 0:10:09.716 won't get your stuff back, and it's upfront payment. And 0:10:09.756 --> 0:10:11.756 so we decided that was a bad business till we 0:10:11.796 --> 0:10:14.156 started a business, and we said we told people, we said, look, 0:10:14.156 --> 0:10:16.796 we're just starting this company. We're new at it, but 0:10:16.836 --> 0:10:18.396 we'll charge you one hundred bucks if we get your 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:20.476 data and nothing if we don't, and you know, we 0:10:20.556 --> 0:10:24.396 might break your stuff. So you'd be surprised how many 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:27.956 people like that better than and then being able to 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:29.876 pay two grand. And so what happened was we got 0:10:29.876 --> 0:10:33.396 really really good at it. As we practiced, the volume 0:10:33.436 --> 0:10:35.516 we could handle and the throughput we could handle, all 0:10:35.556 --> 0:10:38.716 of this scaled really really nicely. And so this was 0:10:38.756 --> 0:10:41.236 like just a formative idea for me that like, Okay, 0:10:41.316 --> 0:10:43.796 if we can get into a niche with fusion, and 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:46.556 we can find an economic proposition that works, we can 0:10:46.596 --> 0:10:49.396 practice and if we practice, we'll get better at it. 0:10:49.636 --> 0:10:51.636 And if we get better at it, like our suppliers 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:53.396 and our customers and everyone. 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:53.836 Will grow with us. 0:10:53.996 --> 0:10:56.836 So we'll move this ecosystem forward. And I really like 0:10:56.956 --> 0:10:58.916 that because if you look at some of the most 0:10:58.956 --> 0:11:03.196 high tech deep tech industries around, they followed the same roadmap, 0:11:03.876 --> 0:11:06.196 you know, if you look at semiconductors and More's law. 0:11:06.396 --> 0:11:09.676 It was fueled by having products all along the way. Right, 0:11:09.756 --> 0:11:12.276 Like the first computers may have only had a few customers, 0:11:12.476 --> 0:11:14.876 they would pay a ton for them, yes, And by 0:11:14.916 --> 0:11:17.196 doing that, they got better and they brought the price down, 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:19.316 and then there were new a new set of customers, 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:20.796 right that could afford those computers. 0:11:20.916 --> 0:11:24.436 Now more recently, Tesla is the classic model of that. 0:11:24.596 --> 0:11:24.756 Right. 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:28.916 They started with the Roadster, this super expensive, exactly electric 0:11:28.956 --> 0:11:33.036 car that was not for everybody, but enough people bought 0:11:33.036 --> 0:11:34.676 it that they could go from the whatever that was 0:11:34.716 --> 0:11:36.716 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars car to the seventy 0:11:36.756 --> 0:11:39.756 thousand dollars car to the fifty thousand dollars car. Right, yeah, exactly. 0:11:39.796 --> 0:11:42.636 And I'd argue that the underlying technology for Tesla started 0:11:42.676 --> 0:11:45.956 even in other industries. So the ability to scale batteries 0:11:46.036 --> 0:11:49.876 even more cheaply, right, Like it's rechargeable batteries. So you 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:53.276 started with toys and special services, and you move to laptops, 0:11:53.276 --> 0:11:54.836 and then you move to EV's and even once you 0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:56.796 get into evs, you do this where you build an 0:11:56.836 --> 0:11:58.556 expensive thing that few people buy. 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:05.676 So you have the idea of applying this framework to fusion, 0:12:06.396 --> 0:12:09.116 which is quite different. Right, there are all these other people, 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:12.356 people who are raising lots of money to go straight 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:17.156 at making electricity basically right, make the energy. Yeah, Like 0:12:17.356 --> 0:12:21.316 why I don't know, Like why is anybody else doing 0:12:21.316 --> 0:12:22.156 it the way you're doing it? 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:26.396 I think there's a there's it's a very exciting proposition 0:12:26.476 --> 0:12:28.596 to be able to go straight to energy. It's it's 0:12:28.716 --> 0:12:31.876 very inviting and it sounds very appealing and even if 0:12:31.876 --> 0:12:33.956 the odds are long, But I don't know how many 0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:37.076 of them have really spent time critically thinking about the 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:40.916 engineering challenges. And that's where my education was just different, 0:12:41.116 --> 0:12:43.316 Like that's all we thought about. Like all we thought 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:44.996 about were the engineering. 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:46.516 Challenges and how to overcome them. 0:12:46.556 --> 0:12:49.036 Like these were university people that are super optimistic, right, 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:52.276 like yeah, and we worked like we developed materials for 0:12:52.436 --> 0:12:55.916 first walls and things like that. But like everything we 0:12:55.956 --> 0:13:01.516 did till broke really fast and it was really expensive stuff. 0:13:01.636 --> 0:13:04.556 So you know, it's just that was different for a 0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:07.076 different experience for me, different formative experience for me than 0:13:07.116 --> 0:13:09.476 for a lot of people who are trying to go 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:10.196 straight to the end. 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:10.636 Now. 0:13:10.676 --> 0:13:13.996 I do think there are some innovative concepts out there, 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:16.436 you know that if they work, and I say if 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:19.396 because the physics is far from proven, but if they work, 0:13:19.436 --> 0:13:22.276 they could simplify a lot of the engineering challenges. But 0:13:22.436 --> 0:13:24.636 the main concepts we know that are likely to work 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:28.556 will run into these challenges. They're very, very significant. 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:31.636 Meaning that even if the physics work, actually building a 0:13:31.676 --> 0:13:35.756 thing at a reasonable cost is going to be super hard. 0:13:36.276 --> 0:13:37.916 Yeah, I think that's that's my view. 0:13:38.196 --> 0:13:43.156 So you actually did start a business and are selling things, right, yes, 0:13:43.276 --> 0:13:45.556 using fusions to do stuff that people will pay for. 0:13:45.676 --> 0:13:47.956 So let's talk about that. Let's talk about where the 0:13:47.996 --> 0:13:49.836 company is today, and then we can talk about where 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:51.516 you're about to be, and then we can talk about 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:54.276 where hopefully you'll be in some number of decades. What 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:55.556 are you sell them today? 0:13:55.676 --> 0:13:59.076 We sell neutrons, and neutrons took. 0:13:58.956 --> 0:14:01.596 Me a little while when I started, and then I thought, well, 0:14:01.596 --> 0:14:04.636 you know, I buy electrons. I buy electrons every time 0:14:04.676 --> 0:14:06.356 I turn on a left switch. Right, I'm just to 0:14:06.396 --> 0:14:09.916 buying electrons. Tell me about the new neutron business, like, 0:14:09.956 --> 0:14:10.596 what does that mean? 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:13.036 Yeah, and I'll translate it. So we sell fusion. 0:14:13.796 --> 0:14:16.316 We just sell fusion to the highest bidders, and the 0:14:16.396 --> 0:14:19.596 highest bidders are not people who buy energy. And so 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:22.396 it turns out the easiest fusion reaction to do is 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:26.916 DT fusion, and DT fusion produces energy on the one hand, 0:14:26.916 --> 0:14:31.196 but it produces neutrons on the other, and when sold 0:14:31.236 --> 0:14:34.556 to certain customers, the neutrons are far more valuable than 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:35.436 the energy. 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:38.756 So, just to be clear, DT fusion is just two 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:43.276 different isotopes of hydrogen, right, And they may tum helium 0:14:43.396 --> 0:14:47.156 and then they throw off some number of neutrons, which 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:51.516 is just the neutral nuclear particle. And you're saying, there's 0:14:51.516 --> 0:14:55.156 people who actually have a use for neutrons, yes, okay. 0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:56.956 Yeah, it turns out and they'll pay a ton for 0:14:57.036 --> 0:15:02.316 it and so uh. And generally the historical neutron sources 0:15:02.316 --> 0:15:05.956 for these are very specialized fission reactors, so research reactors. 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:08.676 Okay, so more traditional nuclear reactor. 0:15:08.236 --> 0:15:11.876 Because fission reactors throw off neutrons too, and as we've 0:15:11.916 --> 0:15:15.076 talked about already, fissions much easier than fusion from a 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:18.916 science perspective. And so there's these old reactors that serve 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:22.716 these industries. But the research reactor fleet that we built 0:15:22.756 --> 0:15:24.116 in the past is old. 0:15:24.436 --> 0:15:25.796 It's like sixty plus. 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.876 Years old and essentially dying in general. So markets that 0:15:28.916 --> 0:15:32.036 have been served by these reactors are losing that capacity. 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:37.276 On top of that, fusion based approaches are much cheaper 0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:40.316 than building new reactors, So as you look to replace 0:15:40.356 --> 0:15:44.836 the infrastructure, there's a massive edge for fusion there. And 0:15:44.876 --> 0:15:46.676 when we looked at the markets, you know, we did 0:15:46.836 --> 0:15:49.436 very quick. Like well, everyone else in fusion you probably 0:15:49.436 --> 0:15:51.796 talk to is chasing something called Q greater than one, 0:15:52.236 --> 0:15:54.676 and that's the ratio of energy out over energy in. 0:15:55.236 --> 0:15:56.836 And they want to show that they can make more 0:15:56.956 --> 0:16:00.836 energy than they can put into it. That's the fundamental 0:16:01.036 --> 0:16:03.836 fusion dream, right sure, but they don't even think, you know, 0:16:03.956 --> 0:16:06.996 most of them aren't really even seriously thinking about the economics. 0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:09.116 They're saying, first we need to get to net energy 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:14.076 and then we'll worry about net economics. For me, you 0:16:14.116 --> 0:16:15.956 know that I couldn't see a way to scale fusion 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:18.756 unless we were worried about net economics right away, and 0:16:19.556 --> 0:16:21.796 if we wanted to practice, we needed to have positive 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:24.276 net economics right away. So we are our core metric 0:16:24.396 --> 0:16:26.476 was q economic. And so how do we get more 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:27.556 dollars out than dollars in? 0:16:28.396 --> 0:16:32.836 Which is the classic business question? Yes, every business needs 0:16:32.836 --> 0:16:35.196 to answer to survive. How could our revenues be greater 0:16:35.236 --> 0:16:35.716 than our costs? 0:16:35.796 --> 0:16:37.916 Yeah, and that's how we have seen deep tech scale, 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:40.756 right Like that is the playbook by which it's scale. 0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:45.436 So we pursued that, and you know, we found actually customers. 0:16:45.476 --> 0:16:47.756 So you know, if you do a kill, what our effusion? 0:16:47.916 --> 0:16:49.956 If you produce a kill, what our fusion heat? And 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:52.836 you can sell that for five cents. Let's say if 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:55.116 you if you took the same neutrons generated by that 0:16:55.196 --> 0:16:58.476 killow what hour of fusion reactions? There are customers who 0:16:58.476 --> 0:17:00.116 would pay two hundred thousand dollars for it. 0:17:00.356 --> 0:17:02.396 Huh. And so that's a massive difference. 0:17:02.876 --> 0:17:05.316 And so are you in fact selling those neutrons for 0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:06.316 two hundred thousand dollars? 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:06.636 Yeah? 0:17:06.676 --> 0:17:07.796 Now is that your business? 0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:08.116 We are? 0:17:08.596 --> 0:17:10.396 And who is buying them? And what are they doing 0:17:10.396 --> 0:17:10.756 with them. 0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:14.076 Yeah, so they're making airplanes safer. You know, they're making 0:17:14.276 --> 0:17:15.916 rockets more reliable. 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:19.476 What is the link between buying neutrons from you and 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:20.916 making airplanes safer? 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:21.356 All right? 0:17:21.396 --> 0:17:24.836 So modern engines and jet aircraft operate to get very 0:17:24.876 --> 0:17:26.556 high efficiency and very high power. 0:17:26.636 --> 0:17:28.236 They operate in a really high temperature. 0:17:28.236 --> 0:17:30.636 In fact, they operate like twenty percent above the melting 0:17:30.676 --> 0:17:32.916 point of the blades in the engine. 0:17:33.116 --> 0:17:34.516 I'm glad I didn't know that. 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:36.916 And now I'm going to tell you something that gets 0:17:36.916 --> 0:17:37.676 even more scary. 0:17:37.756 --> 0:17:40.316 So the way they manage that is they suck cold 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:41.996 air in from the front of the engine and they 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:44.556 pipe it through a series of cooling tubes in each fin, 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.756 like embedded in each fin. And the manufacturing process is 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:51.116 such that it's fairly common that one of these cooling 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:55.116 tubes is blocked, okay, And if it's blocked, it will melt, 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:59.156 it will imbalance the engine and possibly destroy it. And 0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:02.236 so we don't want that to happen truly, but with 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:07.796 modern materials, and those are materials that X ray or ultrasound. 0:18:07.196 --> 0:18:09.956 Do not interact with heavily. So if you try to 0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:12.836 see inside these things with conventional techniques, you cannot see 0:18:12.836 --> 0:18:13.276 the defect. 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:15.636 So just to be clear, you make this engine and 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:17.516 then you want to look inside to make sure that 0:18:17.516 --> 0:18:20.316 these cooling tubes are not blocked so that it doesn't 0:18:20.316 --> 0:18:23.276 melt and the plane crashes. And so you think, well, 0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:26.436 we could use extra A or ultra sound too common technologies, 0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:28.716 but you're saying those don't work. But there's some way 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:31.996 you can shoot neutrons at it and see inside of it. 0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:33.836 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is so. 0:18:34.356 --> 0:18:38.356 So neutrons have you know, they have a characteristic of 0:18:38.396 --> 0:18:42.996 There are certain isotopes, so certain materials in nature that 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:47.196 absorb neutrons like crazy, like okay, and you can put 0:18:47.236 --> 0:18:49.036 them where you want them to be. So, for example, 0:18:49.036 --> 0:18:52.956 with jet engine blades, we just push a liquid solution 0:18:53.116 --> 0:18:57.156 containing a material known as gadolinium into the blade and 0:18:57.196 --> 0:18:59.476 then we blow it out where there and if the 0:18:59.516 --> 0:19:02.516 channel's blocked, it doesn't blow out, so the gatoleinium sits 0:19:02.516 --> 0:19:04.836 in there and then we hit it with neutrons and 0:19:05.676 --> 0:19:08.556 any neutron that comes close to that gatoleinium gets absorbed, 0:19:09.796 --> 0:19:11.556 and then behind the blade you put a piece of 0:19:11.596 --> 0:19:14.156 film that's sensitive to neutrons. It's a little more complex 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:16.636 than that and you can see it and you can 0:19:16.676 --> 0:19:17.116 see it. 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:18.916 It's like an X ray, it's like a neutron. X 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:20.076 rays you see. 0:19:19.876 --> 0:19:22.556 The inside of stuff, but neutrons can see things X 0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:26.396 ray can't, and it's actually very complementary. X ray is 0:19:26.436 --> 0:19:29.756 good at generally heavy materials. Neutrons are generally good at 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:30.876 seeing light materials. 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:34.036 And so are you in that business now? 0:19:34.236 --> 0:19:35.356 We are. Yeah. 0:19:35.436 --> 0:19:38.316 Yeah, We'll do tens of thousands of parts, you know, 0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:43.716 in a year, and we're replacing essentially age capacity. So 0:19:44.596 --> 0:19:47.756 the biggest imaging reactor in the United States shut down 0:19:47.916 --> 0:19:51.076 about two years ago, was run by GE And so 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:53.516 there's this nice tailwin for share acquisition here. It's not 0:19:53.556 --> 0:19:55.236 just a way for us to make money in fusion, 0:19:55.276 --> 0:19:57.716 but a lot of the customers sort of just come 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:00.356 to us proactively because they're very worried about the future 0:20:00.396 --> 0:20:01.236 of the supply chain. 0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:04.676 Uh huh. So they send you the blades. You have 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:06.636 a facility, they send you the blades. 0:20:06.396 --> 0:20:10.676 They do, and we give them back pictures with the blades. 0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:14.916 Yeah, okay, so that's the business you're in. It seems 0:20:14.956 --> 0:20:17.436 like the next big step is getting into the medical 0:20:17.436 --> 0:20:18.316 isotope business. 0:20:18.356 --> 0:20:21.716 Right, You're building a yeah, yeah, okay, and just on 0:20:21.756 --> 0:20:23.396 the other thing, there are many others. 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:24.996 So turbine blades are just one application. 0:20:25.076 --> 0:20:27.596 There's a lot of other parts and components that we validate, 0:20:27.676 --> 0:20:31.836 including radiation hardness testing and electronics, et cetera. But yeah, 0:20:31.876 --> 0:20:34.236 the next step, and it required a huge reduction in 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:36.236 the cost per neutron. We had to get the cost 0:20:36.276 --> 0:20:39.756 per neutron down one thousandfold to make the next step work. 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:42.836 So this is important right now. The whole arc you're 0:20:42.876 --> 0:20:46.916 trying to follow is like, let's do one thing where 0:20:46.916 --> 0:20:48.476 we can make a lot of money, and then let's 0:20:48.476 --> 0:20:51.156 do the next thing where they'll actually pay us less. 0:20:52.036 --> 0:20:53.756 So we have to figure out how to do it 0:20:53.796 --> 0:20:55.916 a thousand times cheaper for it to be profitable. 0:20:55.956 --> 0:20:58.796 Yeah, but they'll buy a lot more neutrons, and so 0:20:59.476 --> 0:21:02.156 the market opportunity is actually, you know, let's call it 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:05.276 ten to twenty times larger than the test opportunity in total. 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:08.556 And so even though they're paying you less, they're buying 0:21:08.556 --> 0:21:11.516 so many more utrons that you know, you make more money. 0:21:14.836 --> 0:21:29.436 We'll be back in just a minute. The next step 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:33.316 for Shine for Gregg's company is to start using neutrons 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:37.716 to create medical isotopes. Medical isotopes, as it turns out, 0:21:37.716 --> 0:21:42.276 are widely used in medical imaging. To get into that business, 0:21:42.436 --> 0:21:45.956 Shine is building what's basically a factory that's going to 0:21:46.116 --> 0:21:50.996 use fusion to create medical isotopes. They call the factory Chrysalis. 0:21:51.596 --> 0:21:54.036 And Greg and I were talking on video and at 0:21:54.036 --> 0:21:56.476 this point in the conversation he mentioned that you could 0:21:56.516 --> 0:22:00.116 actually see Chrysalis out the window behind him. 0:21:59.956 --> 0:22:01.796 And this is Chrysalis behind me, by the way. 0:22:01.876 --> 0:22:04.836 Okay, so, and it's not a picture for people who 0:22:04.836 --> 0:22:07.196 are listening. It's like out there, there's a bunch of 0:22:07.196 --> 0:22:10.116 grass and there's a bill thing. Just it looks like 0:22:10.156 --> 0:22:13.196 a rectangle, a cement rectangle over your shoulder. 0:22:13.276 --> 0:22:15.716 That's over half a billion dollars of invested capital, is 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:15.916 what it. 0:22:15.996 --> 0:22:21.316 Over cement rectangle. So tell me about what's going on 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:22.196 in there. Yeah. 0:22:22.236 --> 0:22:25.316 So, essentially, we needed to get the cost per neutron down. 0:22:25.436 --> 0:22:28.396 We did. We demonstrated that back in twenty nineteen. 0:22:28.516 --> 0:22:30.356 And what we knew we could do then is if 0:22:30.356 --> 0:22:32.876 we got it that cheap, instead of using neutrons just 0:22:32.916 --> 0:22:34.236 to examine material. 0:22:33.916 --> 0:22:35.356 We can use it to change material. 0:22:35.596 --> 0:22:38.316 Okay, in a sense that nuclear engineers call it transmutation, 0:22:38.436 --> 0:22:41.076 but like the common population would think of it as alchemy, 0:22:41.836 --> 0:22:44.996 you can use neutrons to turn low value materials into 0:22:45.396 --> 0:22:47.356 I'm going to call them hyper valuable materials and I'll 0:22:47.356 --> 0:22:50.836 tell you why in just a second. So at small scale, 0:22:51.036 --> 0:22:54.276 the most interesting markets for these are in medicine, producing 0:22:54.316 --> 0:22:56.476 isotopes used for medicine. 0:22:56.356 --> 0:23:00.756 Which turns out to be wildly common, right, like medical 0:23:00.796 --> 0:23:05.156 isotopes I learned, you know researching for this show are 0:23:05.236 --> 0:23:08.356 like what tens of thousands of people a day in 0:23:08.396 --> 0:23:11.156 the US are tested with medical. 0:23:11.556 --> 0:23:14.916 Fifty million per year around the world. Yeah, yeah, so 0:23:14.956 --> 0:23:17.396 they're super common. And again, just like in the testing 0:23:17.436 --> 0:23:22.196 business where we're replacing fission reactors, that's how isotopes have 0:23:22.236 --> 0:23:23.116 been made in the past. 0:23:23.156 --> 0:23:25.876 So old research. 0:23:25.556 --> 0:23:28.916 Reactors around sixty years old, and you know they're dying, right, 0:23:29.036 --> 0:23:31.716 like the infrastructure is going away, and so it's the 0:23:31.716 --> 0:23:33.316 same tail when we just needed to get fusion a 0:23:33.356 --> 0:23:34.196 lot cheaper to do it. 0:23:34.636 --> 0:23:37.676 And is it right that in a kind of crude way, 0:23:37.756 --> 0:23:40.756 the use is analogous in many cases that that medical 0:23:40.796 --> 0:23:44.236 isotopes are used for scanning, but you're scanning people instead 0:23:44.276 --> 0:23:45.796 of jet airplane blades. 0:23:45.916 --> 0:23:48.276 Yeah, the mechanism is a little bit different, so, but 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:51.196 it's the same idea, right, like so, and it fits 0:23:51.236 --> 0:23:53.716 our whole theme of illumination around the company, right In 0:23:53.756 --> 0:23:56.556 one case, we're illuminating defects here, we're illuminating disease. 0:23:56.876 --> 0:23:59.716 Eventually will be illuminating the planet, right with good. 0:23:59.636 --> 0:24:00.836 That's good metaphor. 0:24:00.996 --> 0:24:04.076 Yeah, yeah, but you know, so what you do is 0:24:04.116 --> 0:24:06.396 you've got enough neutrends now that you can turn. You 0:24:06.396 --> 0:24:08.836 can change materials, so you can take things that are 0:24:08.836 --> 0:24:11.516 really stable, like uranium. You buy it for six dollars 0:24:11.596 --> 0:24:14.636 a gram, turn it into an imaging isotope molybdenum ninety nine, 0:24:14.636 --> 0:24:16.636 which is worth like one hundred and fifty million dollars 0:24:16.676 --> 0:24:17.476 a gram presuly. 0:24:17.516 --> 0:24:20.276 People buy it in very very very small pounce. 0:24:20.636 --> 0:24:23.196 Yeah they do, but you know it's a dose for 0:24:23.236 --> 0:24:25.876 a patient is like one tenth of one microgram, right, Yeah. 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:27.356 I mean if it's one hundred and fifty million a 0:24:27.396 --> 0:24:29.716 gram and you're making it in a five hundred million 0:24:29.756 --> 0:24:31.676 dollar building, you don't have to make much of it 0:24:31.876 --> 0:24:33.996 exactly to deeve your cost of capital. 0:24:34.116 --> 0:24:36.556 Yeah, And Krystalist will produce a few grams per year 0:24:36.636 --> 0:24:36.916 that's it. 0:24:37.116 --> 0:24:40.396 Wow, that's extraordinary. So it's like like a few grams 0:24:40.476 --> 0:24:43.076 is like a little cup, not even just like a 0:24:43.116 --> 0:24:45.076 sugar spoonful sugar package. 0:24:44.796 --> 0:24:45.676 You dump in your coffee. 0:24:45.676 --> 0:24:48.316 That's a few grams, but that's millions of doses. 0:24:48.556 --> 0:24:51.116 Yeah, yeah, so one gram is ten million doses is 0:24:51.156 --> 0:24:52.316 essentially that I think about it. 0:24:52.676 --> 0:24:54.996 That is wild. Can we just just have that be 0:24:55.076 --> 0:24:56.476 wild for one moment? Okay? 0:24:56.516 --> 0:24:56.756 Go on? 0:24:57.076 --> 0:24:59.076 So you know, for in the US, for example, most 0:24:59.076 --> 0:25:01.036 of the testing is to look at blood flow in 0:25:01.076 --> 0:25:03.716 the heart. If you're having chest pain, doctors will give 0:25:03.716 --> 0:25:06.396 you this test to see if your arteries are blocked 0:25:06.476 --> 0:25:08.756 or where the muscle is receiving blood and where it's not, 0:25:10.036 --> 0:25:12.876 and but also for staging cancer. And there's probably another 0:25:12.916 --> 0:25:14.956 two dozen tests all that use this on a skin. 0:25:15.476 --> 0:25:18.156 So that's what you're going to be making. Like, tell 0:25:18.196 --> 0:25:22.276 me about the tell me about the business end of chrysalis, 0:25:22.276 --> 0:25:24.516 of that facility over your should, Like what's it look 0:25:24.676 --> 0:25:27.116 like in there where you're actually doing the fusion. 0:25:27.516 --> 0:25:30.116 So there's a bunch of machines. So there'll be six 0:25:30.196 --> 0:25:33.436 fusion machines in Chrysalis. They're built and they're you know, 0:25:33.436 --> 0:25:38.116 they're being installed and they are surrounded. So there's a 0:25:38.236 --> 0:25:40.476 there's a tube in which the particle beam comes down 0:25:40.516 --> 0:25:43.956 and it strikes tritium and makes fusion reactions, and the 0:25:43.996 --> 0:25:47.236 neutrons come out in all directions, and we've surrounded that 0:25:47.396 --> 0:25:50.636 to with The uranium target is uranium dissolved in water, 0:25:51.636 --> 0:25:53.436 and as the neutrons hit it, they cause it to 0:25:53.596 --> 0:25:57.476 split and we get isotopes that are useful for medicine, 0:25:57.476 --> 0:26:01.276 things like molibdidum ninety nine, iodine one thirty one, which 0:26:01.316 --> 0:26:03.716 is used to treat cancer, xenon one thirty three, which 0:26:03.756 --> 0:26:05.276 is used to image brain and heart. 0:26:05.436 --> 0:26:08.716 So you're actually using fusion to drive a fission reaction 0:26:08.796 --> 0:26:11.076 that make the thing that you want precisely. Yeah, it's 0:26:11.116 --> 0:26:13.556 like a nuclear turned ducan, yeah, versus. 0:26:13.436 --> 0:26:16.916 Using fission to drive a fission reaction. And the difference 0:26:16.956 --> 0:26:19.516 is cost. If you were to look at building a 0:26:19.516 --> 0:26:22.876 new research reactor to do what Chrysalis does, you're probably 0:26:22.916 --> 0:26:26.156 at something like five to ten times the cost when 0:26:26.196 --> 0:26:28.556 it's all said and done. So fusion turns out to 0:26:28.556 --> 0:26:31.116 be much cheaper and much safer, and it produces about, 0:26:31.796 --> 0:26:34.476 you know, somewhere between one and five percent the radioactive 0:26:34.516 --> 0:26:37.596 waste of a reactor, so much much cleaner. 0:26:38.516 --> 0:26:41.036 And is it right that there have actually been shortages 0:26:41.196 --> 0:26:43.316 of the isotope that you're going. 0:26:43.236 --> 0:26:45.636 To be making all the time. Yeah, it goes, and 0:26:45.676 --> 0:26:47.596 it's been going on for fifteen years. 0:26:47.956 --> 0:26:51.236 And so how close are you to opening what has 0:26:51.276 --> 0:26:53.556 to happen? There's a building behind you, but it's not 0:26:53.716 --> 0:26:54.316 on yet. 0:26:54.596 --> 0:26:57.836 Right, the equipment is almost all entirely here in Jamesville. 0:26:57.876 --> 0:26:59.676 We need to install it, we need to commission it, 0:26:59.716 --> 0:27:01.716 and then we need to start pushing product out of it. 0:27:01.796 --> 0:27:04.796 When are you going to get the first neutron? I 0:27:04.836 --> 0:27:06.236 won't say out the door, but you know when you're 0:27:06.276 --> 0:27:07.876 gonna get the When you're going to make the first neutron? 0:27:07.956 --> 0:27:10.236 Well, the first neutrons are actually like being made in 0:27:10.276 --> 0:27:12.716 a smaller building to the side that we used to practice. 0:27:12.716 --> 0:27:16.116 But the first isotopes should be made in about eighteen months. 0:27:15.996 --> 0:27:19.156 Okay, so like end of next year, yeah, I think. 0:27:19.276 --> 0:27:21.956 And there's a big difference between first isotope produced and 0:27:21.996 --> 0:27:23.356 actually commercial readiness. 0:27:23.516 --> 0:27:25.716 Yeah. Well, and your whole thing is techno economics, right, 0:27:25.876 --> 0:27:28.996 the first isotope produced where the unit economics are profitable 0:27:28.996 --> 0:27:29.196 for you? 0:27:29.356 --> 0:27:31.076 Yes, you know, and I would say that's probably more 0:27:31.156 --> 0:27:33.076 likely two years. But this is a plant that no 0:27:33.116 --> 0:27:36.116 one's ever built before with technology that we have tested 0:27:36.156 --> 0:27:37.756 in the lab. But you know when you build a 0:27:37.796 --> 0:27:41.356 working machine that has thousands of moving parts and we've 0:27:41.396 --> 0:27:42.076 derisked all the. 0:27:42.036 --> 0:27:44.836 Home Yeah, I'm totally willing to believe that it won't work. 0:27:45.156 --> 0:27:46.636 Oh, it will work, But the things that are going 0:27:46.676 --> 0:27:49.076 to break and burn us are like you know well. 0:27:48.996 --> 0:27:51.796 Or that it won't be economical, right, like, nobody has 0:27:51.836 --> 0:27:53.996 ever done anything like what you are doing before. 0:27:54.156 --> 0:27:55.676 Yeah, it'll be economical. 0:27:55.916 --> 0:27:58.036 I think the question is for me is like I'm 0:27:58.076 --> 0:28:00.956 worried about things like valves. We have hundreds of valves 0:28:00.956 --> 0:28:03.116 in this plant, and they might have a very low 0:28:03.156 --> 0:28:05.196 failure rate, right Like, but if the failure rates one 0:28:05.236 --> 0:28:07.356 percent on hundreds of valves, you're going to have a 0:28:07.396 --> 0:28:08.196 lot of problems. 0:28:08.476 --> 0:28:10.356 You got always is going to have broken falst This 0:28:10.396 --> 0:28:11.876 is your engineering training. 0:28:12.116 --> 0:28:15.516 Yeah, it's exactly right. Like I've got an earlier models. 0:28:15.316 --> 0:28:17.356 And a Tesla, an old Tesla. 0:28:17.436 --> 0:28:20.356 Yeah, Yeah, the motor runs fantastically. The car is still 0:28:20.356 --> 0:28:22.476 super fun to drive. It's got one hundred and seventy 0:28:22.516 --> 0:28:25.236 thousand miles on it. But I've replaced the door handles 0:28:25.236 --> 0:28:27.716 like it feels like a dozen times, and it's not 0:28:27.716 --> 0:28:28.876 fun when you suddenly can't. 0:28:28.716 --> 0:28:29.996 Get in your car and you've got to like use 0:28:30.036 --> 0:28:31.996 a credit card to which oh. 0:28:31.876 --> 0:28:34.676 Look, how fancy the door handles are. Just make regular 0:28:34.716 --> 0:28:35.996 door handles, man. 0:28:35.956 --> 0:28:37.916 And they went back to that. Actually they learned a 0:28:37.996 --> 0:28:40.436 lesson there. But that's what's going to hit us. 0:28:40.436 --> 0:28:42.636 So I think as we think about that thing, like 0:28:42.716 --> 0:28:45.716 really producing reliably, I tell people probably two years as 0:28:45.756 --> 0:28:48.476 sort of the soonest, and it could be three right 0:28:48.516 --> 0:28:50.996 like it, it could be somewhere in that range. 0:28:51.196 --> 0:28:53.196 That's the current staff. Yeah, I want to get to 0:28:53.276 --> 0:28:57.396 the big dream. How many steps between making medical isotopes 0:28:57.476 --> 0:29:00.876 and creating a cheap and abundant power for all of humanity? 0:29:01.076 --> 0:29:03.236 Yeah, and by the way, our steps are like pragmatic, 0:29:03.316 --> 0:29:03.996 not dogmatic. 0:29:04.116 --> 0:29:05.196 So it's nice. 0:29:05.196 --> 0:29:07.516 But they've held so like if there are new market 0:29:07.556 --> 0:29:10.196 applications that come up, definitely we'll look too. 0:29:10.196 --> 0:29:11.116 Include we won't. 0:29:10.916 --> 0:29:12.636 Hold you to it. I promise I won't hold you 0:29:12.676 --> 0:29:14.956 to your forward looking sayments. Yeah, but they have. 0:29:15.476 --> 0:29:16.916 Held for the last fifteen years. 0:29:16.996 --> 0:29:19.396 Yeah, I guess is something I can say with confidence. 0:29:19.436 --> 0:29:22.996 So the next step is to do this transmutation, right, 0:29:23.116 --> 0:29:26.716 changing one material into another at a larger scale, and 0:29:26.756 --> 0:29:28.556 we can use that to solve one of the biggest 0:29:28.556 --> 0:29:31.716 problems with fission energy. So again you can see us 0:29:31.716 --> 0:29:34.156 starting to come into the fission world a little bit here. 0:29:34.956 --> 0:29:37.076 And one of the things that we should be doing 0:29:37.116 --> 0:29:39.356 as a nation is we should be recycling all of 0:29:39.356 --> 0:29:40.396 our nuclear waste. 0:29:40.556 --> 0:29:42.236 We have a lot of nuclear waste. For a while, 0:29:42.276 --> 0:29:43.756 we were going to bury it all in a mountain 0:29:43.796 --> 0:29:46.156 in Nevada, but people in Nevada didn't like that idea. 0:29:46.716 --> 0:29:49.356 So it's still just sort of sitting around everywhere, and 0:29:49.436 --> 0:29:51.996 it'll be sitting around for millions of years the right 0:29:52.076 --> 0:29:53.956 order of magnitude if we don't do something minute. 0:29:54.036 --> 0:29:56.156 I think that's right. And the problem with that is 0:29:56.156 --> 0:29:58.036 it's just loaded with value. 0:29:58.316 --> 0:30:00.916 Right, people worry about it. But also look look at 0:30:00.956 --> 0:30:03.796 all this energy that's just sitting there ready to be harvested. 0:30:03.916 --> 0:30:06.876 Yeah, so why not solve two problems at once. Right, 0:30:06.956 --> 0:30:08.316 it's not super safe wor it. 0:30:08.316 --> 0:30:09.956 I mean it's pretty safe for it is, but if 0:30:09.996 --> 0:30:11.956 somebody wanted to do something to it, they might be 0:30:11.996 --> 0:30:14.476 able to. Yeah, a lot of it's plutonium, which is 0:30:14.476 --> 0:30:16.636 stuff that if you worked and you processed it enough, 0:30:16.676 --> 0:30:18.876 you could turn into nuclear weapons. So we should be 0:30:19.156 --> 0:30:21.756 eliminating that hazard and at the same time we can 0:30:21.836 --> 0:30:24.116 solve a strategic fuel supply. 0:30:23.876 --> 0:30:24.636 Issue for us. 0:30:24.876 --> 0:30:26.996 Now that our relationship with rushes and not so good. 0:30:27.316 --> 0:30:28.676 You know, they were the source of a lot of 0:30:28.676 --> 0:30:31.396 the uranium that we put into our fission reactors. But 0:30:31.436 --> 0:30:33.796 if we recycle all of our spent fuel, essentially we 0:30:33.836 --> 0:30:36.756 can become totally independent of any other nation for our 0:30:36.796 --> 0:30:39.236 own fission energy needs. And the great part is the 0:30:39.236 --> 0:30:43.436 more fission reactors we burn, the more recycled fuel we have. 0:30:43.516 --> 0:30:45.956 So it just scales with the number of plants. 0:30:46.716 --> 0:30:50.996 And so you have a sort of clear technological line 0:30:51.196 --> 0:30:56.596 to using your fusion reactors to do what to get 0:30:56.716 --> 0:30:59.236 energy out of spent fuel from fission plants? Like, what 0:30:59.236 --> 0:31:00.156 do you actually do there? 0:31:00.236 --> 0:31:04.196 We'll take spent fuel, will dissolve it into a liquid form, 0:31:04.436 --> 0:31:08.156 will separate out valuable materials that includes uranium and plutonium, 0:31:08.156 --> 0:31:10.476 which should go back into the reactor. So close loop 0:31:10.516 --> 0:31:14.236 close the fuel cycle with fission, will separate out other 0:31:14.276 --> 0:31:17.516 things precious metals, rare earth elements that have decayed enough 0:31:17.556 --> 0:31:20.316 to sell, and then you're left with this very small 0:31:20.356 --> 0:31:21.956 waste stream, like it's less than. 0:31:21.796 --> 0:31:23.276 Five percent of the original. 0:31:23.676 --> 0:31:27.036 Almost all of that has relatively short half lives decades 0:31:27.116 --> 0:31:31.636 or less, and a little bit of it has these 0:31:31.676 --> 0:31:36.596 really long problematic half lives million year plus isotopes. That's 0:31:36.636 --> 0:31:39.356 the only place fusion comes in. It solves that problem. 0:31:39.876 --> 0:31:42.876 So fusion neutrons can transmute. Just like we use them 0:31:42.916 --> 0:31:44.796 to turn low value into high value, we can use 0:31:44.796 --> 0:31:47.596 them to turn long half life into short half life. 0:31:48.156 --> 0:31:51.236 And one great example I like to use is id 0:31:51.276 --> 0:31:54.676 ON one twenty nine. Waste product from fission lives over 0:31:54.716 --> 0:31:57.516 ten million years, over ten million year half life. 0:31:57.356 --> 0:31:59.836 Which is bad. It's going to be radioactive forever forever. 0:32:00.036 --> 0:32:02.356 Yeah, And you hit it with a fusion neutron though 0:32:02.596 --> 0:32:04.996 it becomes id ON one twenty eight. Id ON one 0:32:04.996 --> 0:32:07.196 twenty eight has a twenty five minute half life, after 0:32:07.236 --> 0:32:10.476 which it becomes stable. You put it in salt, yeah, 0:32:10.516 --> 0:32:11.956 you could right, like you could eat it. 0:32:12.316 --> 0:32:12.836 Yeah. 0:32:13.156 --> 0:32:16.396 So you do this process with fusion and you solve 0:32:16.636 --> 0:32:20.156 the problem with the long lived waste. So we want 0:32:20.156 --> 0:32:22.276 to do that two steps, and we know how because 0:32:22.276 --> 0:32:25.436 we're already doing both of those processes and chrysalis. So 0:32:25.716 --> 0:32:28.756 as we look to scaling to a waste recycling plant, 0:32:28.916 --> 0:32:33.036 we've already got essentially a prototype for it here, and 0:32:33.116 --> 0:32:34.396 you know we're going to build on that. It's the 0:32:34.436 --> 0:32:36.996 same part of the regulatory code that would license a 0:32:36.996 --> 0:32:39.156 recycling plant, same type of construction, everything. 0:32:39.356 --> 0:32:44.276 Yeah, so that one is obviously complicated on multiple dimensions, right, 0:32:44.396 --> 0:32:46.876 I mean you have to whatever the technical side is. 0:32:46.876 --> 0:32:49.436 It's the technical side, but presumably you're dealing with nuclear waste, 0:32:49.476 --> 0:32:52.276 there's going to be a whole like political regulatory side. 0:32:52.436 --> 0:32:54.956 That's what is that a decade? When you think about that, 0:32:55.076 --> 0:32:57.996 ten years, twenty, like, that's a long game already, right, 0:32:58.396 --> 0:32:59.476 But the political. 0:32:59.076 --> 0:33:01.156 Winds are changing, and I'm not talking about because of 0:33:01.196 --> 0:33:02.116 the current administration. 0:33:02.356 --> 0:33:04.796 No, the world is becoming more pro nuclear you know, 0:33:05.316 --> 0:33:06.516 basically non partisan way. 0:33:06.676 --> 0:33:08.556 But people are starting to learn that you shouldn't think 0:33:08.556 --> 0:33:11.036 an absolutely right like, are you more afraid of climate 0:33:11.116 --> 0:33:13.516 change or are you more afraid of the very very 0:33:13.516 --> 0:33:16.476 small risk posed by nuclear energy? Yes, And anyone who 0:33:16.516 --> 0:33:19.236 thinks about it from a mathematical perspective very quickly comes 0:33:19.236 --> 0:33:20.796 to Wow, climate change is going to hurt way more 0:33:20.836 --> 0:33:22.476 people than nuclear energy ever, will. 0:33:22.676 --> 0:33:26.716 Even particulate emissions from you know, certainly coal plants are 0:33:27.156 --> 0:33:28.316 wildly more dangerous than a. 0:33:28.276 --> 0:33:31.796 Physicially yeah, absolutely, And if you look at like coastal 0:33:31.796 --> 0:33:34.476 flooding and stuff like that, multiply that by like tens 0:33:34.556 --> 0:33:36.836 or hundreds of times in terms of impacted people. 0:33:36.996 --> 0:33:39.956 So okay, so you're saying the political still, it's going 0:33:40.036 --> 0:33:41.836 to be it's going to take a while, and it's 0:33:41.876 --> 0:33:44.276 going to be hard despite the political shifts you're talking about. 0:33:44.436 --> 0:33:46.476 Yeah, well see, you know, the US has had a 0:33:46.476 --> 0:33:50.036 long term policy band on recycling spent fuel, you know, 0:33:50.476 --> 0:33:53.236 but new executive orders that just came out are challenging that. 0:33:53.436 --> 0:33:56.636 So I'm trying to reinvigorate the nuclear industry. I mean, 0:33:56.676 --> 0:34:00.076 when you think you're going to do it twenty thirty two, okay, 0:34:00.316 --> 0:34:02.236 not ten years, but not too far off of ten 0:34:02.356 --> 0:34:04.956 years in a pilot plant, okay, because we want to 0:34:04.956 --> 0:34:06.356 prove the economics first. 0:34:06.116 --> 0:34:08.156 And then can we get to the big dream after 0:34:08.156 --> 0:34:10.236 that part? When do we get to free energy for 0:34:10.276 --> 0:34:11.116 all of humanity? 0:34:11.356 --> 0:34:11.636 Now? 0:34:11.716 --> 0:34:12.396 Are we ready? 0:34:12.516 --> 0:34:12.596 So? 0:34:12.636 --> 0:34:14.836 The cool thing is as you look at like these 0:34:15.156 --> 0:34:17.636 fusion systems that you use for recycling, to spend fuel. 0:34:17.836 --> 0:34:21.676 They look technologically very much like fusion power plants, but 0:34:21.716 --> 0:34:24.116 you're still getting paid at least twenty times as much 0:34:24.156 --> 0:34:26.956 per reaction and they don't need to operate ninety nine 0:34:26.956 --> 0:34:28.916 point nine nine percent of the time because you know, 0:34:29.036 --> 0:34:31.636 people freak out if a city loses power for good reason. 0:34:31.876 --> 0:34:33.316 Yeah, if you slow down. 0:34:33.356 --> 0:34:36.236 Recycling a material that has a ten million year half life, 0:34:36.516 --> 0:34:38.436 no big deal, right, Like you fix the machine, you 0:34:38.476 --> 0:34:40.076 get to learn, and you get to move forward. 0:34:40.116 --> 0:34:41.316 So, and we're going to have. 0:34:41.316 --> 0:34:44.036 To build dozens, if not hundreds of these fusion systems 0:34:44.076 --> 0:34:47.116 to solve the global problem with nuclear waste. So through 0:34:47.196 --> 0:34:50.116 economy of scale and through practice on a much more 0:34:50.116 --> 0:34:52.996 forgiving environment where you're getting paid more per neutron, we 0:34:53.036 --> 0:34:55.116 think we can get that next you know, that next 0:34:55.116 --> 0:34:57.316 factor of ten or so that you need to be 0:34:57.396 --> 0:35:00.476 cost competitive and drive and the fusion engine. 0:35:00.596 --> 0:35:05.676 So really, in your mind, the recycling nuclear waste is 0:35:05.756 --> 0:35:08.276 like a sort of a straight line. It just ramps 0:35:08.356 --> 0:35:10.716 right up to just generating energy. 0:35:10.796 --> 0:35:12.836 Yes, in my mind, and this is very hard for 0:35:12.836 --> 0:35:14.396 a lot of people to gress, but it really is 0:35:14.556 --> 0:35:16.916 exactly that. So I'm glad that you I'm glad that 0:35:16.956 --> 0:35:18.876 you put that together right away, because it is. 0:35:18.836 --> 0:35:22.316 That so the sort of fusion reaction you would be 0:35:22.436 --> 0:35:26.596 running in that context, it's the kind of thing that well, 0:35:26.676 --> 0:35:28.516 let's let's go back to Q. Let's go back to 0:35:28.556 --> 0:35:30.836 this idea of getting more energy out than you put in, 0:35:31.236 --> 0:35:34.396 right like in that setting, how does that happen that 0:35:34.476 --> 0:35:36.916 at some point in the future somebody has to do that? 0:35:37.076 --> 0:35:37.276 Yeah? 0:35:37.356 --> 0:35:40.236 Yeah, yeah, And I know that's not your primary goal, 0:35:40.276 --> 0:35:42.076 and it's a compelling case for why that's not your 0:35:42.076 --> 0:35:44.716 primary goal. But like, do you get to that just 0:35:44.836 --> 0:35:48.276 by incremental engineering tweaks? Are you ever gonna have to 0:35:48.396 --> 0:35:52.556 like have some you know, physics level technological insight or 0:35:52.556 --> 0:35:54.716 do you just think you can keep optimizing and optimizing 0:35:54.716 --> 0:35:56.956 what you're doing and you'll sort of eventually get to 0:35:57.476 --> 0:35:58.716 more energy out than you put in. 0:35:58.876 --> 0:36:01.636 Now we'll need we'll need we'll need physics optimization too. 0:36:01.756 --> 0:36:04.076 Like so, and even going from phase one to Phase two, 0:36:04.156 --> 0:36:06.916 it was it was new technology. Yeah, but the truth 0:36:06.996 --> 0:36:09.876 is through practice and building over time, it's a different 0:36:09.876 --> 0:36:12.796 path and you have a different technology evolution path than 0:36:12.796 --> 0:36:15.316 trying to go straight to the endgame. And so and 0:36:15.356 --> 0:36:17.836 it's pragmatic, right, You're always building systems that are doing 0:36:17.916 --> 0:36:21.116 work for customers, and so it's cost effective built into 0:36:21.156 --> 0:36:23.796 the model, and it's pragmatic built into the model, and 0:36:23.836 --> 0:36:26.476 that's just how you design new technology. But what I'll 0:36:26.476 --> 0:36:28.636 say is, we have our own technology that we like 0:36:28.756 --> 0:36:32.356 for scaling into phase three, recycling and ultimately energy. But 0:36:32.836 --> 0:36:35.156 I'm the only fusion company that will say this, I 0:36:35.196 --> 0:36:37.796 don't think it's more than ten percent likely to be successful, 0:36:38.716 --> 0:36:41.916 and I don't think any given technology probably is. And 0:36:42.756 --> 0:36:44.596 so what I do know, though, is we're going to 0:36:44.596 --> 0:36:47.956 have an amazing delivery engine that can manufacture fusion systems 0:36:47.996 --> 0:36:51.196 at scale, and whatever technology is successful, I know we 0:36:51.236 --> 0:36:53.996 will have a role to play in bringing this economically 0:36:54.036 --> 0:36:54.596 to the world. 0:36:54.756 --> 0:36:56.276 When you say you don't think it's more than ten 0:36:56.356 --> 0:36:59.276 percent likely to be successful, you mean the particular technology 0:36:59.356 --> 0:37:02.276 you are betting on using. Yeah, you think it's very 0:37:02.356 --> 0:37:04.556 unlikely that it will work to put out more energy 0:37:04.596 --> 0:37:06.556 than you put into it. It probably won't. It probably 0:37:06.596 --> 0:37:10.196 won't do that. And to be clear, cost effective effectively right, Yeah, 0:37:10.356 --> 0:37:13.516 for electricity, Yes, But you're saying you're learning all of 0:37:13.556 --> 0:37:15.876 these things about the engineering, about the nuts and bolts 0:37:15.916 --> 0:37:19.476 that will be relevant no matter whose technology works exactly. 0:37:19.516 --> 0:37:21.076 Let me ask you this. I feel like, if you 0:37:21.076 --> 0:37:24.996 think your technology probably won't work, you you must hope 0:37:24.996 --> 0:37:28.476 somebody else's will, right, Like, if somebody else does it 0:37:28.516 --> 0:37:30.676 before you do it, will you be happy? Will that 0:37:30.716 --> 0:37:31.956 be good in your mind? 0:37:32.356 --> 0:37:33.996 Yes, it would be fantastic. 0:37:34.196 --> 0:37:37.276 And it's kind of funny because you know it's becoming 0:37:37.276 --> 0:37:40.916 a competitive world in the fusion space, and like, I'm 0:37:40.956 --> 0:37:43.636 cheering for everybody I love. Really, i would love to 0:37:43.676 --> 0:37:46.876 see anyone be successful and moving forward. And look, we're 0:37:46.876 --> 0:37:49.676 going to have an awesome economic and manufacturing engine. We'd 0:37:49.676 --> 0:37:52.116 love to work with whatever technology prevails. At the end 0:37:52.156 --> 0:37:54.396 of the day, We're going to continue to adapt our 0:37:54.436 --> 0:37:56.596 strategy and invest in what looks like it's doing great, 0:37:56.676 --> 0:37:58.556 just so we can move fast. But this is a 0:37:58.596 --> 0:38:00.876 tool that I want to see in my lifetime come 0:38:00.916 --> 0:38:04.276 to humanity. And like that means looking across the page 0:38:04.356 --> 0:38:07.236 at everything, just like we looked at fusion holistically, right, 0:38:07.316 --> 0:38:10.316 not just the energy. We're not dogmatic to a single 0:38:10.596 --> 0:38:12.756 technical approach. We're going to learn a ton in the 0:38:12.836 --> 0:38:15.356 next ten years with all this funding going into all 0:38:15.396 --> 0:38:17.996 these different approaches, and I'm really really excited to see 0:38:18.076 --> 0:38:18.836 what comes out of it. 0:38:21.796 --> 0:38:23.916 We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 0:38:36.036 --> 0:38:39.516 Let's finish with the lightning round. What's one thing you 0:38:39.556 --> 0:38:41.716 would do if you had free, unlimited power? 0:38:42.156 --> 0:38:44.996 One thing I would do? Well, you know, all goes 0:38:45.036 --> 0:38:48.076 back to minority childhood and space and star trek, right, Like, 0:38:48.356 --> 0:38:51.916 I'd love to build a series of spacecraft that would 0:38:51.956 --> 0:38:54.476 go back and forth from the Earth to Mars and otherwise. 0:38:54.556 --> 0:38:56.396 I think, you know, if you've got a fusion engine 0:38:56.476 --> 0:38:59.636 that becomes very very fast and very very easy, you know, 0:38:59.796 --> 0:39:03.876 this nine month travel time is actually insanely problematic for humans. 0:39:04.916 --> 0:39:06.836 The radiation you get up in space is going to 0:39:06.836 --> 0:39:10.476 be very damaging over those timeframes. And so you know, 0:39:10.516 --> 0:39:12.716 we're even if we start to build a city on Mars, 0:39:12.756 --> 0:39:14.876 it's going to be very harmful for people just to 0:39:14.876 --> 0:39:15.596 get there and back. 0:39:15.836 --> 0:39:18.716 You think you'll go to space, well, you know, it's funny. 0:39:18.756 --> 0:39:20.476 I used to always want to be an astronaut, but 0:39:20.556 --> 0:39:24.196 the the reality of very tiny, closed in capsules is 0:39:24.236 --> 0:39:26.396 something that I'm not like super big fan of. So 0:39:26.796 --> 0:39:29.236 if we had starships or something a little more spacious, 0:39:29.236 --> 0:39:31.396 I'd love to, but not so much in today's way. 0:39:31.436 --> 0:39:34.516 Mean you need you need fusion power to build your 0:39:34.596 --> 0:39:37.036 Catillac Big cadillact space. 0:39:37.636 --> 0:39:38.916 Exactly right, exactly right. 0:39:38.956 --> 0:39:40.796 If you weren't working on fusion, what would you be 0:39:40.836 --> 0:39:41.236 working on? 0:39:41.596 --> 0:39:44.156 I'd probably also be working on the same thing. I 0:39:44.436 --> 0:39:47.236 do think like even with fission, there are ways to 0:39:47.316 --> 0:39:50.956 build uh spacecraft that can go to and from the 0:39:50.996 --> 0:39:53.396 different planets in the Solar System very cost effectively and 0:39:53.436 --> 0:39:54.156 fairly quickly. 0:39:54.436 --> 0:39:55.116 Fusion will be. 0:39:55.076 --> 0:39:56.436 Fast, but we can we can get that. 0:39:56.716 --> 0:39:58.316 We can get the time down to a couple of months, 0:39:58.356 --> 0:39:59.196 probably with fission. 0:39:59.276 --> 0:40:01.156 If you go anywhere in the Solar System, where would 0:40:01.196 --> 0:40:01.396 you go? 0:40:02.196 --> 0:40:03.076 You're in the Solar System? 0:40:03.076 --> 0:40:04.836 You want to do anywhere in the galaxy? I don't care, 0:40:04.876 --> 0:40:05.636 it's just a question. 0:40:06.596 --> 0:40:08.036 Well, yeah, I mean, if you could go anywhere in 0:40:08.036 --> 0:40:09.996 the galaxy, it'd be great to go to some place 0:40:09.996 --> 0:40:13.236 where you could witness like a supernova happening from close 0:40:13.356 --> 0:40:16.596 range without being obliterated. The world's most spectacular fireworks show 0:40:16.596 --> 0:40:23.196 would be something to see. 0:40:24.436 --> 0:40:28.316 Greg Pifer is the co founder and CEO of Shine. 0:40:29.836 --> 0:40:33.156 Please email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. We 0:40:33.236 --> 0:40:36.956 are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 0:40:36.956 --> 0:40:40.876 show was produced by Trinamanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang, who 0:40:40.956 --> 0:40:44.796 was edited by Alexander Garreton and engineered by Sarah Bruguheer. 0:40:45.156 --> 0:40:47.316 I'm Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with 0:40:47.356 --> 0:41:02.276 another episode of What's Your Problem.