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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul Mission Control deckaned. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Funny story. Years back, your

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Speaker 3: faithful correspondents here were treated to a strange training day

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Speaker 3: by some ex Navy seals. Do you guys remember this day?

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It made a lot of people really uncomfortable in

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Speaker 4: the office, Like, here's how you disarm somebody and shoot

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Speaker 4: them with their own gun.

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Speaker 3: It was like love them de glove.

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Speaker 2: But there was one guy I remember distinctly. His whole

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Speaker 2: point was, you can come up to me with a

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Speaker 2: gun and if you don't shoot me in the head,

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Speaker 2: I will kill you before you get off your next shot.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, I love.

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Speaker 4: You, sir.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was.

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Speaker 3: Deep water for a nine thirty am meeting.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: It continued well into the afternoon. We were taught by

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Speaker 3: this consulting company, things like emergency first aid, things like

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Speaker 3: disarming an assailant. And shout out to one of my

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Speaker 3: favorite instructors from that day who talked about her time

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Speaker 3: being lost in hostile enemy territory out Middle East Way,

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Speaker 3: and she said, I was worried. I was frightened because

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Speaker 3: I didn't have a weapon, I didn't speak the language.

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Speaker 3: And then I realized I am the weapon. That's a

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Speaker 3: lot of stuff to hear before lunch. One of the

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Speaker 3: things that stuck with us, I think all of us

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Speaker 3: was the same guy you're mentioning. Matt made a big,

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Speaker 3: big point that in a kidnapping situation, you will be asked, cajoled,

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Speaker 3: or forced to go to a secondary location. That's when

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Speaker 3: something becomes kidnapping. And this was, as you said, Noel,

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Speaker 3: this was quite an unwelcome, non consensual training session for

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Speaker 3: a lot of our colleagues who had experienced trauma in

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Speaker 3: the past. It also gets us thinking, can the government

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Speaker 3: kidnap you?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Can a government just say not this? When Paul mission

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Speaker 3: controlled decadt his name has a lot in common with

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Speaker 3: some other guy, right, can we take him somewhere? I

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Speaker 3: don't know it's weird. It's weird.

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Speaker 2: We made a very silly video and put it on

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Speaker 2: social media where Ben, you and I were arguing about

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Speaker 2: whether or not the government could abduct you. And one

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Speaker 2: of the fascinating things about today's episode is that generally

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Speaker 2: there are rules about this stuff, but as we found

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Speaker 2: throughout history, those rules get bent and broken often Yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: Can the power structure of a civilization or a community

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Speaker 3: kidnap you? For much of human history, the answer is

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Speaker 3: categorically yes. I mean, go way back. Tribes used to

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Speaker 3: sequester or abduct people for any number of reasons, often

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Speaker 3: social taboos. Right. It still happens in some indigenous communities, where,

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Speaker 3: for instance, a woman who is menstruating is forced out

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Speaker 3: of the community until their cycle has changed. Theocracy, monarchies,

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Speaker 3: they were no better. They did the same thing. And

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Speaker 3: yeah right yeah, and Harris, yeah, just so, and democracy,

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Speaker 3: the shiny new penny of human governance, is not that

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Speaker 3: different in this regard. Here are the facts. If we

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Speaker 3: want to talk about a government kidnapping someone, we first

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Speaker 3: have to answer, even though it sounds very basic, we

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Speaker 3: first have to answer the question, what is a government?

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Speaker 4: There are friends, they mean it's no harm.

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Speaker 3: They're here to help they have. It's a conservatory. That's

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Speaker 3: a very obscure. Shout out to Oates Studios.

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Speaker 4: If those are good. Yeah, I'm just talking about Well,

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Speaker 4: so what is the government? I guess you know you

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Speaker 4: interchangeably sometimes referred to as the state, not to be

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Speaker 4: confused with the excellent seminal nineteen nineties sketch comedy Troupe.

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Speaker 4: The state or a government is defined by a lot

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Speaker 4: of goals. I guess it's sort of like, what are

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Speaker 4: you after? What are you trying to achieve? And again

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Speaker 4: on paper, often it is the betterment of a society, uh,

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Speaker 4: the you know, improvement of people's lives perhaps, or maintaining order,

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Speaker 4: you know, and all of that stuff, making sure people

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Speaker 4: are able to survive and thrive. Some consider they're binding forces.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes often are religious or as I mentioned, economic, perhaps

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Speaker 4: often it's a combination of all of these things, right,

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Speaker 4: ideological I guess maybe is the one that sort of

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Speaker 4: sort of encompasses all of them. But whatever govern various governments,

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Speaker 4: differences might be. In practical terms, any governing body is

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Speaker 4: there to maintain and enforce rule of law, which.

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Speaker 3: Is a nice way of saying.

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Speaker 2: What Yeah, they make the rules. They're the folks in charge.

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Speaker 2: They get to take you if they want to. No,

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Speaker 2: I'm just sugar.

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Speaker 4: They tell us what we can and can't do, and

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Speaker 4: we sort of enter like this. So my kid actually

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Speaker 4: was doing a paper the other day. Would the social contract?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: The social contract is by being part of a society,

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Speaker 4: we agree that there we can't do everything, and the

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Speaker 4: government kind of dictates what those things we can and

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Speaker 4: can't do are. In theory, we elect those people that

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Speaker 4: tell us those things, but sometimes there's things that are

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Speaker 4: sort of off book, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know if this makes sense,

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Speaker 2: but for me, the great parlor trick of democracy is

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Speaker 2: that it is for the people, by the people, and

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Speaker 2: by that stuff, because ultimately it's the few that are

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Speaker 2: in charge that get to make those rules we're talking

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Speaker 2: about for every that everyone else has to adhere to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a governing structure for a microcosmic surely relatable example

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Speaker 3: is Davenbusters controls who which games are allowed at Dave

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Speaker 3: and Busters. You are allowed, as a temporary resident of

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Speaker 3: Dave and Busters to play those games. You are in

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Speaker 3: trouble if you bring your own games, because only Dave

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Speaker 3: and Busters gets only Dave and only Buster get to

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Speaker 3: decide the games.

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Speaker 4: Or if you try to game the games aka rig

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Speaker 4: the system or work, you know, using a different set

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Speaker 4: of rules, perhaps you shake the machine right, or try

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Speaker 4: to unplug it and plug it back in, or something

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Speaker 4: that you will very quickly be escorted out of, said

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Speaker 4: Dave and Busters.

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Speaker 3: Or Boxy Gee, you know, you could, you could grift,

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Speaker 3: or you could teach a man to grift, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: What we're saying is rule of law. Rule of law

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Speaker 3: is a very diplomatic, very nice way of acknowledging the

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Speaker 3: one reality. The best, most practicable definition of a state

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Speaker 3: or a governing structure is that entity which has a

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Speaker 3: monopoly over violence. Governments do define what is not or

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Speaker 3: is a crime. I mean, well, if you're a citizen

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Speaker 3: wherever in pretty much every country, you cannot just murder

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Speaker 3: someone impulsively. You can't take people's property, you can't launch

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Speaker 3: an invasion on another country, et cetera, et cetera. However,

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Speaker 3: wherever you are right now, your government, we guarantee you can,

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Speaker 3: has and will do all of those things.

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Speaker 4: Unless you successfully launch a coup, at which point you

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Speaker 4: then become the government and take on all of those

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Speaker 4: things that we were just talking about. But if you lose,

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Speaker 4: you'll probably be executed or at the very least, you know,

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Speaker 4: kicked out and banished, you know.

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Speaker 3: And the plot twist of that horrific black mirror esque statement,

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Speaker 3: as orwellian as it sounds, Yes, the government can do

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Speaker 3: crimes because the government is the defining force of what

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Speaker 3: constitutes a crime. The plot twist is, this is not

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Speaker 3: inherently sinister, this is not necessarily bad, which I feel

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Speaker 3: crazy saying. In theory, governments, like you're pointing out earlier

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Speaker 3: governments only take these actions at the behest of their citizens,

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Speaker 3: and they do so only after a rigorous series of

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Speaker 3: checks and balances. Again in theory, I mean, think about

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Speaker 3: tribes back in the day would abduct or sequester people

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Speaker 3: for the violation of social taboos, right, or for the

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Speaker 3: goal of controlling resources containing rivals. Theocracies did and do

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Speaker 3: spoiler alert the same thing, but only with quote unquote

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Speaker 3: approval from their whatever their metaphysical authority is. God told us,

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Speaker 3: So it's okay, right.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned the word taboo, and it reminds me I

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Speaker 4: just started watching I got the actual recommendition of a

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Speaker 4: friend of the show, Lauren Bogobam a show called Taboo

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Speaker 4: Fantastic's really really, really great ast, but it shows some

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Speaker 4: of the stuff we're talking about here in terms of

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Speaker 4: like the East India Trading Company is it becomes a

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Speaker 4: sub government in and of itself that basically has the

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Speaker 4: latitude to do crimes like you're you're messing with us.

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Speaker 4: We want this piece of land that you have, We

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Speaker 4: need it. We're going to make you an offer that

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Speaker 4: we hope you can't refuse. Once you refuse it, all

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Speaker 4: bets are off, you know, because they basically were as

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Speaker 4: powerful and sanctioned by the government, so for all intents

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Speaker 4: and purposes, they became an extension of the government.

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Speaker 3: Again practicable application, you know. It's like, I love that

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Speaker 3: you're mentioning the East India's those companies because whatever derivation

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Speaker 3: they were in their heyday, they were like, what if

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Speaker 3: the Federal Reserve took field trips? You know, and they

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Speaker 3: did two great acclaim in court. Monarchies also do the

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Speaker 3: same shisty, creepy, sketchy stuff, and when they would engage

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Speaker 3: in these criminal actions, they would do so because their

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Speaker 3: status quo was under threat, and for those of us

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Speaker 3: playing a log at home, you know, the people who

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Speaker 3: are most often abducted or kidnapped by monarchies other aristocrats,

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Speaker 3: that was the most direct threat to the status quo

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Speaker 3: because they were very bloodline oriented. People shout out to

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Speaker 3: Man in the Iron Mask, which all, yeah, I read,

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Speaker 3: I read it earlier and then I re watched it,

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Speaker 3: and Leonardo DiCaprio is just sort of the same age

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Speaker 3: in things.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's true, I only watched it. Sorry, I

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Speaker 2: don't do books, but the I'm just joking. The thing

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Speaker 2: I want to point out here is we're talking about

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Speaker 2: theoretically why governments, no matter who runs them or how

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Speaker 2: they got in power, right, do these things for good reason.

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Speaker 2: But I think I think the closest one in my

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Speaker 2: mind right now that makes sense for today's topic is

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Speaker 2: how monarchies respond because protecting the government protecting itself, right,

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Speaker 2: so taking action that would potentially be against the law

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Speaker 2: to any other country or if you looked at it objectively,

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Speaker 2: but for the purposes of that government, this is now

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Speaker 2: legal because we are in danger or some really important

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Speaker 2: aspect of our operating system is in danger.

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Speaker 3: A great and you know, for people who are maybe

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Speaker 3: a bit pollyada about the current dominant government trends, You

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Speaker 3: might say, well, what about democracy. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: It's important to vote. It is important to vote. We're

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Speaker 3: not going to be dicks about that. But it is

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Speaker 3: equally important to remember that your favorite democracies, favorite dictatorships,

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Speaker 3: your favorite authoritarian governments, they lumped all of those previous

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Speaker 3: behaviors into a kind of bombo meal salma gundhy of

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Speaker 3: righteous cause. At every single point in human history, the

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Speaker 3: state is best defined as the entity in your neck

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Speaker 3: of the global woods with that monopoly on violence, and

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Speaker 3: that applies to kidnapping just as it applies to murder,

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Speaker 3: just as it applies to theft. Folks, you are going

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Speaker 3: to hear Matt Noel, Paul and I present an extraordinary story,

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Speaker 3: a terrible pun of not just a phenomenon, but a

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Speaker 3: possibly continuing program in which the United States government, champion

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Speaker 3: of freedom, actively kidnapped people from around the world, some

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Speaker 3: of whom remain imprisoned in a legal limbo with no

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Speaker 3: criminal charges. As we record this evening, I suggest we

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Speaker 3: pause for a word from our sponsor. We got to

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Speaker 3: you know, we got to rack our ribs. We got

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Speaker 3: to drink our coffees. I just learned about Celsius drink.

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Speaker 2: It's so good. Dude, Hey Celsius, if you're listening, send

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Speaker 2: us some.

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Speaker 4: I need more.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. Extraordinary rendition, extraordinary redition. You

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Speaker 3: look at a redition and you go that, my old

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Speaker 3: chap is extraordinary. It's a euphemism for kidnapping when a

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Speaker 3: government does it versus you know, your local dirtbags. I like, Matt,

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Speaker 3: you and I were having a pretty interesting conversation briefly

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Speaker 3: before we started recording. Is one of the first things

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Speaker 3: we talked about. Why what is an ordinary rendition?

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I'm not looking at any definition. In

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Speaker 2: my mind, an ordinary rendition would be when let's say,

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Speaker 2: a local police force, I guess you could say, kidnap

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Speaker 2: someone into a patrol car because they're suspected of committing

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Speaker 2: some crime, and so they become a guest at a

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Speaker 2: local jail, right, and then they go through hopefully a

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Speaker 2: judicial process where they're either released or sent to probably

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Speaker 2: a prison. In my mind, that's a rendition. Just being

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Speaker 2: abducted by a police force that represents the government, whether

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Speaker 2: it's you know, an entire country, a state, or a

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Speaker 2: local level.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Agree, Like the jurisprudence teaches us that the concept

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Speaker 3: of rendition is just what you describe, a transfer of

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Speaker 3: people or individuals from one legal jurisdiction to another. And

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Speaker 3: this happens. This happens all the time in you know,

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Speaker 3: criminal cases like the very lurid stuff. We hear it

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Speaker 3: often right when a let's say, a mass murderer or

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Speaker 3: a serial murderer is apprehended in one state and then

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Speaker 3: they are taken to another state to stand trial for

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Speaker 3: their crimes in that separate jurisdiction.

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Speaker 2: In an act of highly ordinary rendition.

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Speaker 3: An act of extremely ordinary, super mids rendition. In the US,

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Speaker 3: the phrase extraordinary rendition most often refers to a genre

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Speaker 3: of operations, a genre of programs that that spring sort

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Speaker 3: of sort of before the ongoing War on Terror. But

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Speaker 3: definitely they definitely powered up Dragon Ball Z style because

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Speaker 3: of this.

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Speaker 2: Uh, that's it, Ben, That's totally it. Extraordinary rendition went

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Speaker 2: super Saiyan during in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 4: However, many thousand, yeah, over nine thousands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But if you if you go online, you can

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Speaker 2: find quite a many story about in the nineties eighties,

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Speaker 2: even before that, where the US government, particularly the CIA,

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Speaker 2: ended up doing these very similar practices. And it was always,

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Speaker 2: I bet, I'm sure you found the same thing. It's

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Speaker 2: always when there is a suspect picked up by some

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Speaker 2: other state government, right, but they happened to be maybe

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Speaker 2: from another country, right, and suspected of doing things in

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Speaker 2: a third country. But the CIA wants that person, so

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Speaker 2: they take them somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: It's always Halloween in America, right, And the company had

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Speaker 3: no compunctions about doing trick or treat style door to

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Speaker 3: door with the Moujadin. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And the costumes are really simple, they're just black bags.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow. Yeah. The example that you could find right now,

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Speaker 2: there's so I'm thinking about, y'all is when police in

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Speaker 2: Croatia seized an Egyptian national and then the CIA stepped

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Speaker 2: in and took him somewhere else. Like that's crazy, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 3: And it's true. These are real conspiracies, not conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 3: So let's look at the history about this, right, the

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Speaker 3: balls of it, the hutspa of it, to say, one,

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Speaker 3: we are a country that calls ourselves a champion of

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Speaker 3: human rights, you know, habeas corpus, And it's until proving guilty,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, all the good stuff, all that

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Speaker 3: slow jazz. Two, we are respecting the rule of law.

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Speaker 3: And then three, we don't respect the International Criminal Court.

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Speaker 3: The United States is not and never will be a

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Speaker 3: signatory to that particular circus. So how is it that

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Speaker 3: this same country, the world's police said, we're going to

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Speaker 3: go outside of whatever you guys call or jurisdiction, and

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Speaker 3: we're going to take an individual from their present location.

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Speaker 3: And we're not taking them back to you know, Langley,

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Speaker 3: We're not taking him back to d C or anything

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Speaker 3: like that, Levenworth, et cetera. We're taking them to a

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Speaker 3: third country. And you know, we're doing in Vegas style.

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Speaker 3: What happens there stays there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, let's I know what he goes back to? Ben, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's the it's the eleventh director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

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Speaker 3: No way, what you're talking about?

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Speaker 2: George George, dude, I'm telling you so much goes back

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Speaker 2: to George. It's it's weird. Maybe not, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: that's my theory. I think I think his background, uh

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Speaker 2: and and not to compare him fully to Putin, but

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Speaker 2: you know Putin's intelligence days make him a really interesting

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Speaker 2: leader of a country.

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Speaker 4: He was Putin esque.

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Speaker 2: But but I guess that's what I mean. When you've

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Speaker 2: got the mind for running into if those operations, running

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Speaker 2: a country is a very different thing than let's just say,

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Speaker 2: an attorney that rolls up and says, Hi, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be president now.

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Speaker 4: Because you know how the sausage is made, and you

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Speaker 4: also know how to make sausage, you know, and you

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Speaker 4: can work on both sides of the line kind of

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Speaker 4: because you know what's happening behind the scenes. And I

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Speaker 4: feel like a lot of times the type of president

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Speaker 4: you're talking about that maybe as is more of a

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Speaker 4: legal background. They might get briefed on some of that

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Speaker 4: stuff later, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have the

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Speaker 4: like chops to really exploit it, you know, and work

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Speaker 4: with that all of that stuff in mind. I think

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Speaker 4: you're your spot on, Matt, and I believe Ben the outline.

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Speaker 4: You talk about this precedent set by George H. W.

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Speaker 4: Bush and his administration back in the nineties.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, og for sure. Yeah, So extraordinary rendition is

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Speaker 3: a precedent set back in nineteen ninety three by the

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Speaker 3: George H. W. Bush administration and yes, fellow don Americans,

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Speaker 3: and there we get it. It's weird that it's a

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Speaker 3: purported meritocracy, that one guy was president and then whoopsie,

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Speaker 3: do his son is also president? We get how it's

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Speaker 3: smacks the monarchy and corruption. You may be interested to

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Speaker 3: find by the way that the pilot program for extraordinary

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Speaker 3: Rendition continues throughout the false dichotomy of domestic US politics.

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Speaker 3: The Clinton administration elected in opposition to this, George the Elder.

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Speaker 3: The Clinton administration enacted this stuff. They put it into

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Speaker 3: play as sort of a pilot program, you know, a

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Speaker 3: little test let's drive it around the block. And their

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Speaker 3: goal was to paint with a broadbrush, to shoot with

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Speaker 3: a shotgun. They wanted to aim toward any individual that

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Speaker 3: they thought was a possible operator in any number of

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Speaker 3: terrorist networks they called them. And the nature of these

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Speaker 3: networks themselves was very nebulously defined internally as well as externally.

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Speaker 3: And we're like, hey, there's a bad guy and he's

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Speaker 3: probably hanging with some other types we don't like, let's

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Speaker 3: get him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in the reason why you would pick someone

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Speaker 2: up like that, especially as you know, part of some

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Speaker 2: terrorist network, which was the common thing it is to

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Speaker 2: gain information.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's not all that different from policies and certain

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Speaker 4: you know, metro cities like stopping frisk you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean. It's this idea that like, if you're associating

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Speaker 4: with certain people, or if you're potentially you know, suspect

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Speaker 4: in some way, then we can stop you and search

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Speaker 4: you and ask for information, you know, and and bring

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Speaker 4: you in and and maybe we don't have enough to

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Speaker 4: hold you, so we let you go, but we're still

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Speaker 4: gonna go on that fishing expedition. But this is obviously

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Speaker 4: much more of a level up dragon ball, you know,

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Speaker 4: like version of that, because they don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 4: let you go.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, And and one of the main problems is,

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Speaker 2: or the main reasons that you would use this technique

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Speaker 2: is when you don't have hard evidence to convict somebody. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: as we're going through this, if I think, and then

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Speaker 2: maybe this is just my opinion, I think if you

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Speaker 2: had hard enough evidence to convict one of these people,

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Speaker 2: anyone who has been extraordinarily renditioned, that it would go

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Speaker 2: through a different process. But in this in most of

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Speaker 2: these events, it's because you suspect somebody of being a

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Speaker 2: high level person within some organization, you maybe can't prove

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Speaker 2: certain things, and you know that group is you have

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Speaker 2: intelligence that that group is going to take part in

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Speaker 2: other activities, you just don't have any details of those activities.

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Speaker 2: So you bring somebody like this in to literally extract

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Speaker 2: everything they know.

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Speaker 3: Check out our earlier conversation to folks on whether or

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Speaker 3: not torture works. I really listened to that, and I

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Speaker 3: gotta say, I am come with hat in hand on

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Speaker 3: behalf of our show. I am so sorry that that

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Speaker 3: is still very current and absolutely accurate. It is an

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Speaker 3: absolute bummer of an episode. And everything that you just said,

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Speaker 3: Matt is one hundred percent correct. There's a there is

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Speaker 3: to this day, to this evening. There is not a

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Speaker 3: solid methodology for these sorts of programs for evaluating the

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Speaker 3: efficacy the actionability of this intelligence. Right, So there's some

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Speaker 3: guy who has some name that you heard about from

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Speaker 3: some other person who may have been tortured. So now

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Speaker 3: you're out to find this person. And surprise, out of

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Speaker 3: more than eight billion people in the world, is still

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Speaker 3: like seven billion something when this stuff was in its heyday,

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Speaker 3: more than one person has the same name.

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Speaker 4: Whoopsie I was gonna ask, like, I mean, I understand

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Speaker 4: that torture it can yield unreliable results. Let's just say

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Speaker 4: based on what you're saying, because if you're being tortured,

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Speaker 4: you're gonna say whatever it takes to have them stop you.

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Speaker 4: But it can also if people really do have information,

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Speaker 4: if you torture them enough, they're probably gonna tell you.

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Speaker 4: But the question then becomes, how do we know who's

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Speaker 4: giving us the real information and who's We're just torturing

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Speaker 4: until they say something, And it's creating this like wild

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Speaker 4: Goose Chase scenario.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, just so I.

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Speaker 2: Was gonna say, Ben, how would you sum it up?

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Speaker 2: But for me, remembering back to that episode, it is

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Speaker 2: exactly that torture doesn't work often for the reasons you

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Speaker 2: want torture to work. As a torturer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, yeah, I'd agree with that, and that the

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Speaker 3: the pickle of it is logically it is impossible to

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Speaker 3: prove that something would have happened when it did not happen.

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Speaker 3: The ticking time bomb scenario is so popular in the

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Speaker 3: world of fiction and spy novels and all that that

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Speaker 3: is so rare, Like that that is true, Maybe a

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Speaker 3: handful of times in modern history. It's not so much

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Speaker 3: a case of we've got this bad guy, and there

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Speaker 3: are bad guys. It's not so much a case we've

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Speaker 3: got this bad guy. We've got, you know, Keifer Sutherland

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Speaker 3: twenty four hour style, you know, a defined window of

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Speaker 3: time to figure out where the bomb is or where

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Speaker 3: the disease is getting deployed. It's much more a case

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Speaker 3: of we have this guy, we know this guy knows someone,

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Speaker 3: So let's play a very evil game of six degrees

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Speaker 3: of Kevin Bacon shut out to our pal aj Jacobs,

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Speaker 3: who and Kevin Bacon? Kevin Bacon and our pel Kevin

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Speaker 3: And The idea then is that through these coercive means,

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Speaker 3: this person will reveal something that will be not the solution,

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Speaker 3: but a bread crumb toward the ultimate goal. And the

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Speaker 3: problem with that is that a lot of times just

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Speaker 3: doesn't work out that way.

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Speaker 4: Now, and it can lead you down to another thing

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Speaker 4: that will then give you another bread crumb that ultimately

435
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: just involves just hurting a lot of people. And maybe

436
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 4: they're not fully innocent. What does innocence even mean? Once

437
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 4: you're in this system, it's very difficult because it's up

438
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 4: to Uncle Sam to determine that. And that's why this

439
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 4: stuff can be so dangerous, because there is no innocent

440
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 4: until proven guilty. It's are you guilty enough by association

441
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 4: to warrant US snatching you up to see what you know?

442
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 4: And then you're in a system.

443
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: Oh you know, Kevin, Well, I'm not convinced that you know, Kevin.

444
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: Put them back under my.

445
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: Man, I said Kevin.

446
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: I Tvin, Devin tamble too.

447
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 2: But it gets so much murkier than that, and we'll

448
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: get into it, and that stuff starts happening a lot

449
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: more when extraordinary rendition evolves.

450
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, when when the rubber hits the road. Right, So

451
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: the company, everybody's favorite US company, the Central Intelligence Agency

452
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 3: UH and co UH. They had a three part process, right,

453
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: a sort of dare I say, middle passage of espionage

454
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: and of abduction and interrogation. What you would do is,

455
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: as country one, the United States, acting through intelligence agencies,

456
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: you would apprehend, kidnap a terrorism suspect abroad. Now, how

457
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: did you define their activities? What made them a suspect?

458
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 3: Any number of things? Wild West, honestly, and the country

459
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: you capture them in that's country too. You would not

460
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: have them questioned or interrogated or tortured in that country

461
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: where you snapped them up. You would instead take them

462
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: to a third country that was friendly with your overall goals,

463
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: or that owed you a favor, or that wanted you

464
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: to do them a favor in the future.

465
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: And they had some kind of handy misused air base

466
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: or you know.

467
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: Davenbusters. Right, yeah, yeah, take them to the take them,

468
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: take them to Poland right, take them to church, shout

469
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: out Hosier. So these interrogations included torture obviously, uh, And

470
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: to pretend otherwise is to be purposely misleading. Sometimes the

471
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: people that were being questioned, whether they were or were

472
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: not innocent, they died as a result of things like

473
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 3: stress positions, confinement, forced.

474
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: Feeding, blunt trauma to the legs.

475
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: Blunt trauma to the legs, Yeah, had trauma also, of

476
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: course infamously waterboarding. I think we're all still waiting for

477
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 3: Sean Hannity to make good on his promise to experience waterboarding.

478
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: Haven't checked in with Sean recently. Look, so the Clinton administration,

479
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: while acting as though they are enemies of the Bush administration,

480
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 3: they're putting this plan into action. They didn't come up

481
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: with it, and when pressed by the American media, now

482
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: the former president Bill Clinton said, you know, these covert

483
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 3: operations are probably illegal, but hey, they're necessary. That's right, folks,

484
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: We're aiming toward a greater good. And then I imagine

485
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: he did like the little saxophone or peggio or whatever,

486
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: and they were like, yeah, it's like a love theme

487
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: kind of situation. Well, that careless wispard, This sure is.

488
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: But they're definitely illegal because if you brought that suspect

489
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: back to the United States and interrogated him there, that's

490
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: definitely illegal.

491
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: Right.

492
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: If you were in another country officially interrogating that suspect

493
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: in country number two wherever they were picked up, and

494
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: you're the ones interrogating them, I'm pretty sure that would

495
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: be illegal too.

496
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: It's a loophole, is what it is, right, Yeah, And

497
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 3: it's as plausible deniability. I mean, yes, it's not denying it,

498
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: but it is definitely a loophole. I mean, okay, so

499
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: fast forward, the US ostensibly a democracy, a meritocracy for

500
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: some crazy reason, because I'm sure he was the best

501
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: guy for the job. George H. W. Bush's son, one

502
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 3: of his sons George W. Bush, in a burst of creativity,

503
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,239
Speaker 3: becomes POTUS President of the United States. Fast forward, the

504
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: United States experiences attacks on September eleventh, two thousand and one.

505
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 3: These are attacks by a terrorist group led by Asama

506
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: bin Laden, bankrolled by factions of the Saudi Arabian government according.

507
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: To the official story.

508
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: According to the official story, outside of Saudi Arabia, they're

509
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: as surprised as you are. And so when this occurred,

510
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 3: it opened the door to insane amounts of military funding.

511
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: The US public was united in an extraordinary way, and

512
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: they were on board with this vibe. They were like, look, yeah,

513
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: laws are good. We're the critics. Yeah, we're the champion

514
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: of laws. But we need to interrogate, We need to find, apprehend,

515
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 3: and press Yes, anyone as soon as possible. Checks and

516
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: balances be damned. This is the only way to prevent

517
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 3: another disaster.

518
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 4: Was that Wait, maybe I'm being dumb, dumb? What was

519
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: the Patriot Act? Wasn't that kind of what opened up

520
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 4: a lot of this stuff? Oh?

521
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Patriot Act is Patriot Act is a opportunistic consequence,

522
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 3: that's right.

523
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 4: And when it's almost like we've never really rendered back,

524
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: like from what that did.

525
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: No, why would you? I mean, think about like another Okay,

526
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: this is very this is very thrifty of me, but

527
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: think about, for instance, the way airports changed and the

528
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: way airlines changed post two thousand and one, checked bags

529
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 3: had a temporary fee, and that fee just never got

530
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: rolled back, right anyway, that's I walked down the runway

531
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 3: for that one.

532
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 4: But anyway, the whole thing though, I mean, you could

533
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: you can enact some of this stuff under duress or

534
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 4: like in a state of emergency, but then it's really

535
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 4: hard to put the badgers back in the bag. You know,

536
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 4: at that point it nearly impossible. And then to your point,

537
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: bet A, why would you why would you want to

538
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 4: the government? Why would they want to the people? A

539
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 4: little different? But then it's too late, because it's no longer.

540
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: The power is no longer with them. If it ever

541
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 4: really was, it was an opportunistic move because of the

542
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: climate that allowed you know, this, this this situation where

543
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 4: people weren't gonna bulk at it, right, Isn't that mainly

544
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 4: what it is?

545
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look, that's what I think that there, what

546
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: you've just stated is one of the primary reasons the

547
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: September eleventh attacks are feel so suspect because it was

548
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: it was a moment in time when the government, the

549
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: executive branch of the United States, seemed to seize a

550
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 2: whole heck of a lot more power than they had

551
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: before that moment in time. And it's for for this

552
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, because who's going to force the executive

553
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: powers to have fewer powers except for someone outside of

554
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 2: the executive powers?

555
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 3: Right, an American? The very proposal, an American arrest this man,

556
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 3: arrest arrest every Matt Frederick around so many all right,

557
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: well get all of them, just to be safe. That's

558
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 3: literally what happened. So wallet wide Open, I agree with

559
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: everything to say. Wallet wide Open, Uncle Sam and friends

560
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: go on a merry and evil path across the world.

561
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 3: They conduct a global sweep of anyone they consider a

562
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: suspect of terrorism. Both being nebulously defied. They're in a

563
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: pickle because multiple defendants were and have been tried in

564
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: criminal courts in the United States or an insert country.

565
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: Here the stands, the Balkans, you know what I mean,

566
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: all kinds of different parts of the world, right, India

567
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 3: as well. Not to be Islamophobic, but a lot of

568
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: times they were aiming for people of Muslim faith. And

569
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: the problem was when these defendants were getting tried in

570
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: the United States or when they were getting tried in

571
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: different countries, they weren't getting the courts were not getting

572
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 3: the results that the United States desired. And so they said, look,

573
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: a lot of these guys that we genuinely think are

574
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: bad faith actors. A lot of these bad dudes are

575
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 3: hiding away in countries that do not extradite, They are

576
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: hiding away in countries that grant them asylum. They are

577
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: never going to be caught, and there is no currently

578
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 3: legal way to get them. And so, like any government

579
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 3: worth its salt, the United States said, let's change the law.

580
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: Oh that's right, you guys, we write this stuff. So

581
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: to this day, the US a global public has no

582
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: idea how much good intelligence these agencies actually possessed. We

583
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: have no idea what functionally informed their decisions. The logic

584
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: of these black site operations was, when you think about

585
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 3: it itself, a black box as a result. And then also,

586
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 3: you know, in two thousand and four, when the US

587
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: public started getting a little a little sour on this,

588
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: the US Supreme Court conveniently decided that quote government agents

589
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: are immune from civil or criminal liability for their official

590
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: conduct abroad, which is a crazy thing to say. That's

591
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: that ruling comes from Sosa, the Alvarez Machine, or Mackaine.

592
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: The idea was, look, if you're doing your job and

593
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: you work for the good guys, you work for Uncle Sam,

594
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: then do what thou wilt in service of the greater good,

595
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: which is not the way you should write a law.

596
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: No, no, it is not. And just quick shout outs

597
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: for anybody who wants to dig deep into this specific

598
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: moment or these moments in time and just before that,

599
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: in like early two thousand and three, shout out to

600
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: car I think her name is Carlotta gall from the

601
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: New York Times. That's somebody who was extensively reporting on

602
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: this very subject. And also shout what New York Times

603
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: did a bunch of reporting, yes, on this stuff right

604
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: around that time. But there are there are several other outlets,

605
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: a lot of other people. Check that out for sure.

606
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: And I'm just before we move on, I would suggest

607
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: everybody watches this documentary that you can find right now.

608
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 2: If you're a Prime member, it's free, you can watch it.

609
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: It's called Taxi to the Dark Side. By Alex Gibney.

610
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: It will make you extremely uncomfortable and it is upsetting

611
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 2: to watch. But it goes over this exact thing that

612
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: Ben is describing here, just in too much detail.

613
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: It's important detail. I'm really glad you shouted that out,

614
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 3: because more people need to be aware of these things.

615
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: This is the stuff they don't want you to know.

616
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: I mean, the practice of extraordinary rendition accelerated to unprecedented levels.

617
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: You could even make the argument that the Bush administration,

618
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 3: Oh I'm sorry again, there's two that's weird. The earlier

619
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: one they probably didn't see this coming. They probably didn't

620
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: know what kind of automation they had enabled. The US

621
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 3: essentially needed to and beat me here again, Paul. The

622
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: US needed to prove some gangster. They needed the world

623
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: to know anyone can get it. Wherever you are, you

624
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 3: can be touched. It was as if Uncle Sam said,

625
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: you guys want smoke. What a coincidence you and everyone

626
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: you know happened to be sitting in the smoking section,

627
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: So holler at me.

628
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: You know, Oh, I thought you were going to say,

629
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: is on fire currently?

630
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 4: And the subtler the better walk?

631
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: What is it? Walk softly and carry a big stick,

632
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: and so we're going to pause for a word from

633
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 3: our sponsor, and then we'll return to some more extraordinary renditions,

634
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: assuming we're still here and we're back okay. So democracies

635
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: are supposed to be a government by the people for

636
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: the people. Therefore, at least if you're a dictator, the

637
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: Achilles heel of that structure is that your people can

638
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 3: hold you accountable or any number of means right. And

639
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 3: that's why a bunch of dithering began, a bunch of

640
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: fights over cement this dangerous discourse of what is or

641
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: is not the greater good. Condoleeza Rice, former Secretary of State,

642
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: came out with a very interesting series of public statements

643
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: and the State Department at this point argued that extraordinary

644
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 3: rendition is a necessary element of counter terrorism and furthermore

645
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 3: assured not just the US but the global public that

646
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: terrorism suspects had been neither transported nor tortured by US agents.

647
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 3: We have the specific quote here.

648
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 4: The United States has not transported anyone and will not

649
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 4: transport anyone to a country when we believe he will

650
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 4: be tortured. Where appropriate, the United States seeks assurances the

651
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: transferred persons will not be tortured.

652
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: Wow, where appropriate appropriate?

653
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 4: Otherwise who knows? But we definitely don't do it on purpose.

654
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 4: But hey, who's to say what happens once they've left

655
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 4: our our purview?

656
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so insane because right, I mean, this is

657
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: right around the time when there was actual discussion within

658
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: the halls of power in the White House where they're

659
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: deciding what the definition of torture is. Right, they're deciding

660
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: that legally, what is torture what is not?

661
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: That one guy was like, Hey, I stand for hours

662
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: at a time at work, rumsevet lt. I think, yeah,

663
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: he got thrilled.

664
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: On that a bunch, But dude, it just and they're

665
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: trying to figure out if you strike, like how many

666
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 2: times can you strike a detainee in the in the

667
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: legs or you know, in the knees before it's considered torture.

668
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: How long can you have a detainee change to the

669
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: ceiling with handcuffs with their arms out until it's considered torturally? Well,

670
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: what what's the level?

671
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 3: And how long can you allow them to go on

672
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: a hunger strike? Right? And when you force them to

673
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: eat or force them to consume some sort of nutrient, right,

674
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: then what what is your method for non consensually keeping

675
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 3: them alive? Very nasty stuff.

676
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: How many hours? How many hours can you keep a

677
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: detainee up before it's considered torture? Awake sleep insane?

678
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 4: There was a line in that new David Fincher movie

679
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 4: The Killer, which I really liked a lot, where he

680
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 4: said something to the effect of he I think it's

681
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 4: insane that the government rule that sleep deprivation can't be

682
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 4: considered torture.

683
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 3: It is, well, it's intellectually fraudulent at best. The claim.

684
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: What's really interesting is the claim does not preclude the

685
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 3: possibility that subjects have been taken somewhere to be tortured

686
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: on the order of the US government. Q Shaggy saying

687
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 3: it wasn't me right, Yeah, you know what I mean?

688
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: So like maybe they're taking a string.

689
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 4: Shaggy from Scooby Doo, but I never realized you mean

690
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 4: the seminal nineteen nineties reggae performer show.

691
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: It was Scoo and Marine. By the way, Shaggy is

692
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 3: a marine, that's.

693
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 4: Right, besties with our CEO turns out of what sure thing?

694
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they even caught them on camera. So put plainly,

695
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 3: the US government contended that kidnapping people and torturing them

696
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 3: isn't really a crime so long as the folks who

697
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 3: do the kidnapping drop the individuals at a different non

698
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 3: US country with maybe a little unofficial conversation beforehand. You know, like,

699
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: we don't torture folks here in the States. But Poland,

700
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 3: you guys are sort of the New Jersey of Europe, right,

701
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 3: like everything goes here. We'd love your help on this.

702
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: We'd love to figure out what this guy knows, and

703
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 3: we will remember you've done this favor for us in

704
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: the future, while we, of course again do not torture

705
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: people in the United States. Poland, I'm sure you can

706
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 3: understand we are a country under attack and any information

707
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 3: you get, however you get it, don't tell us. But

708
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: however you get something it would be of immense value

709
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 3: to us, just don't make it messy, you know what

710
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 3: I mean? And that's a cut to a handshake, maybe

711
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 3: a file of a wish lists, right, tell us these

712
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 3: following things, probably something like confirm these following things, which

713
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: is even more dangerous in a torture situation because you're

714
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: just asking people to say yes, right, And then maybe

715
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 3: even a handy guide on how to efficiently derive that

716
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 3: information from someone who doesn't want to tell you things.

717
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 2: Spooky spooky, and and make a list of things that

718
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: are torture and things that are not torture. Right, just

719
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: as close to the line as you want to get,

720
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: just don't go over it.

721
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 3: Well, as long as the dog doesn't bite them.

722
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 4: That's when the term enhanced interrogation started flying around, Right,

723
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 4: that's exactly right. It's goofy, right, It's it's it's so stupid.

724
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 4: It's just a pr maneuver. It's like rebranding.

725
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 2: It is but discussed in the halls of power at

726
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: the White House of what is torture and what is not?

727
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: And what can we do to these guys.

728
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 4: It's one of the most pornography things. I don't know

729
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 4: what it is, but I know when I see it.

730
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 4: Only it's the reverse of that, because I would argue

731
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 4: that most people would know torture when they see it,

732
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 4: but they're saying it needs to be quantified in some

733
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 4: mathematical formula, which I would argue is not really possible.

734
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 4: It's like point to the smiley or frownie face that

735
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 4: defines your pain when you're in the hospital or something.

736
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 4: It's very difficult to quantify it. I don't know have.

737
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 3: A fox define what makes a good hen house? Right,

738
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: that definition is going to be very different from the

739
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: definition of the chickens. And I appreciate and all that

740
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 3: shout out, I think to our ridiculous history. James Joyce

741
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 3: episode which is on the way. The publication of Ulysses

742
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: prompted so many discussions about the nature of pornography or

743
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 3: the nature of that which is considered unclean. This CIA

744
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 3: did not and does not, to be completely clear without hyperbole,

745
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: the CIA does not, did not will not give a

746
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: about that kind of stuff. And excuse my strong language.

747
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 3: That's my third beep. In tonight's episode, they it's very going.

748
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: It's true. They operated a series of black site facilities.

749
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: We talked about this at length and previous episodes. These

750
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: facilities were, like you said, Matt, they would appear to

751
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 3: be abandoned maybe former government things like a picture and whatever.

752
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 3: The abandoned warehouse is on the outskirts of your town.

753
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 3: It looked like it. Stuff like that with security and

754
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: they were in Afghanistan, Poland, Romania, Thailand. The list goes on.

755
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: The scary truth is the American public and the global

756
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: public still does not know how many of those sites

757
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: existed or exist in the current day. We don't know.

758
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: We do know somewhere around somewhere north of fifty different

759
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 3: governments participated in this extraordinary rendition program. I think like

760
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 3: fifty three that we know about.

761
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to add one little detail or just a couple.

762
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: You think about Bogram. It was an airbase. It was

763
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: a Soviet airbase, right place called Bogram where people it

764
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 2: was a black site where people were interrogated and tortured

765
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: and killed. And you know, think about Abu Gray, but

766
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: again a base that was kind of repurposed and parts

767
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: of it that still functioned were used to interrogate and

768
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: house people.

769
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: Guantanamo as well, right, an episode.

770
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 4: All its ow And it wasn't until like footage and

771
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 4: stills and stuff of the treatment of prisoners in those

772
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 4: facilities started coming out that tide of public opinion started

773
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 4: to turn a little bit. But again by this point

774
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 4: it was too late.

775
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 2: You know, it's all at the same time two thousand

776
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: and three, two thousand and four, when all of this

777
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: we're discussing right now is happening, including the photos from

778
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: Abu Grabe coming out like the human Pyramids and.

779
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 3: The horrible, horrible things.

780
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: That were done to human beings.

781
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 3: Im Air fuel Man, You're right, the US public was

782
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 3: thanks to independent media, to be honest with you, the

783
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: US public was starting to starting to get tired of

784
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: this notion what did we like police? They were starting

785
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 3: to get tired of this notion of being the world's police,

786
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 3: and they had again noticed the rise of everything. Eisenhower

787
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 3: warned people about the military industrial congressionalfiteering. It's a practice

788
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 3: dating back to the foundation of the United States. It happened,

789
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 3: you know, the United States was isolationists. During the beginning

790
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: of World War One. The United States pre Pearl Harbor

791
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 3: had some really serious questions about why they should involve

792
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 3: themselves in a global war. And other countries in this time,

793
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: the time you're describing that other countries felt their sovereignity

794
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 3: was under threat by this program. There were global investigations.

795
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 3: Our neighbors to the north, Canada, they were super pissed

796
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 3: because their sovereignity was violated by one of these rendition programs.

797
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: Multiple European, North African, Middle Eastern theaters were also understandably

798
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 3: upset Washington needed to respond, right, And so in two

799
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 3: thousand and nine, we've got a different administration. Now is

800
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 3: the Barack Obama administration again in in apparent opposition right

801
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 3: to the to the other side of the political aisle.

802
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 4: Uh.

803
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: The Obama administration did all the same stuff. They did

804
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 3: the same stuff that Clinton and H. W. Bush and W. Bush.

805
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 3: That's still gross. They did all the same stuff these

806
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 3: previous administrations were doing. And they issued an executive order

807
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 3: that was meant to quell growing concerns. They said, all right,

808
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 3: you guys, seriously, you guys, this time for serious no torture.

809
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, for this time for serial We're gonna pull back

810
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: on the torture, and we're gonna get a lot more

811
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: drone killing going on.

812
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, we're gonna We're gonna screw up some weddings,

813
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 3: We'll tell you that much. But but they also said,

814
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 3: we're going to start a task force. Okay, we're starting

815
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: a task force American public to explore options for what

816
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 3: to do with these terrorism suspects. Put plainly, the people

817
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: responsible for kidnapping civilians across the planet promised to investigate

818
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 3: their own behavior.

819
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 2: Tight right, dude, that's exactly what they did back in

820
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: two thousand and four, and they found out it was

821
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: a couple of bad apples at the essentially prison complexes

822
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: that they were running like Abu grab When those photos

823
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: came out, like Donald Rumsfeld and you know, generals got

824
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 2: in front of mics and said it's a couple of

825
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: bad apples who are doing it. But they didn't say

826
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: anything about the pressures that were coming from above that said, hey,

827
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: we need to get actionable intelligence from the guys coming

828
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: through and women, men and women who were kept at

829
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: these prisons. We need to get actionable intelligence to save

830
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: your fellow soldiers and to prevent another attack like nine

831
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: to eleven. So the very lowest end the military police

832
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: assigned to those places, and the interrogators who were part

833
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: of military intelligence basically had marching orders to extract any

834
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: info you possibly could, and a very loose set of

835
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: things they could and could not.

836
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 3: Do, a very loose set, I would say, things they

837
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 3: could not do. Right, you're right, you're right. It's like,

838
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: all right, guys, I'm the cool dad. Right now. You

839
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 3: can only hang them up this long. It's unholy, it

840
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 3: is ghoulish.

841
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 4: No more burning with cigarettes though, guys, Okay, that's off

842
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 4: the table.

843
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 3: Only vapes. So they're like very strange, very strange semantics,

844
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 3: you know. And and I think the point holds true.

845
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: The a c l U has a pretty robust discourse

846
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 3: on this, and they note that per the Department of

847
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 3: Justice in a series of infamous memoranda, Uh, these folks

848
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 3: who were abducted by these programs are quote unprotected by

849
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,959
Speaker 3: federal or international laws. To your earlier question, Noel, Yes,

850
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 3: that's the loophole, dude, that's the dangerous part, because federal

851
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 3: US laws are still just you know, injewpolitical terms, federal

852
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 3: laws are a state actors laws, right, Like you can

853
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 3: smoke weed all the livelong day in California, you will

854
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 3: be executed legally in Malaysia for doing the same thing.

855
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 3: But when they get to the point of not being

856
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 3: protected by international laws, that means stuff like the Geneva Conventions.

857
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 3: That means stuff like the rights of POW's prisoners of war. Right.

858
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 3: That's why we see more or well in terms trotted

859
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 3: out like this is not a soldier, this is an

860
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 3: enemy combatants.

861
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a lot of that stuff is so toothless anyway,

862
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 4: because it's so easy to like oh, we said no

863
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 4: burning with cigarettes.

864
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: You didn't say anything about clove cigarette.

865
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 4: You know, there's always some way around it, and these

866
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 4: reclassifications and just kind of linguistic jiu jitsu's It makes

867
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 4: your head spin.

868
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 2: Guys. I want to get this thought out and see

869
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 2: if it makes sense to you. Guys. I think when

870
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: this concept originated, right back to George hw Bush, he's

871
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 2: thinking as CIA, he's thinking abducting a single person using

872
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: everything we've been talking about here, maybe enhanced interrogation, maybe

873
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: even torture, but on a single individual where the company

874
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: is seeking very specific information about either a group or

875
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: a potential singular attack or you know, some sell but

876
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 2: they're interrogating one person. I think when it originated with

877
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 2: that group of people, and with George hw Bush at

878
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: the head of some of those ideas, or maybe at

879
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 2: least the signer of some of those ideas, when it

880
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: evolved into the thing that his son was dealing with

881
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: with a war, where now you've got a prison system

882
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: running that very concept right of a single individual undergoing

883
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: those things, right to extract information. I think it's a

884
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 2: whole other It was just a whole other bag of

885
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: badgers because now think back to the Stanford prison experiment,

886
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: Think back to what psychologically occurs when a inside a

887
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 2: prison rather than just a singular interrogation room interaction. Right.

888
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: I think that's the major the major change that occurred

889
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: in the thing that the originators didn't think would happen.

890
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 3: The exception became the rule, right, became the practice. The

891
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 3: hop up shop that was meant to be around for

892
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 3: an afternoon became a franchise.

893
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Because in the one person example, you've got

894
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 2: probably a seasoned interrogator who's been interrogating the suspects for

895
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: the entirety of their career. But in you know, in

896
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 2: the prison system, it's literally military police that do not

897
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 2: know what exactly the rules are. They're giving a very

898
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 2: loose set of objectives and the main objective is get

899
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 2: information from this person.

900
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 3: And we know, yeah, that's well put. And I agree

901
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 3: with you know, we know folks who have been involved

902
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 3: on the US side in these sorts of pursuits, in

903
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 3: these activities, people who have conducted interrogations, and they are

904
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 3: not super villains, right, They're not goals or whatever. They're

905
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 3: people who are trying to do a job in a

906
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 3: good faith effort. And the problem is the rules of

907
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 3: the road keep changing, and the demands, the expectations, the

908
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 3: goal of the mission keeps changing. At some point when

909
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 3: things go wrong, all of a sudden, there's no one

910
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: at the wheel, which is again another problem with like this.

911
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: There is no strong impetus to close this massive loophole,

912
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 3: this massive shaggy it wasn't me kind of passing the buck.

913
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 3: It's a phenomenon that will continue not just in the US,

914
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: but in any government with the power to do so,

915
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 3: even now in twenty twenty three, as we record this evening.

916
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 3: This is a genuine conspiracy. This is an attempt, quite successful, honestly,

917
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 3: to skirt the rule of law. Consider the United Nations

918
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 3: legendary bars these guys are spitting. Here's a real sexy

919
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 3: thing they wrote. It's called the United Nations Convention against

920
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 3: Torture and other forms of Cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

921
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 3: It says, point blank it's illegal to do any of

922
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 3: this stuff. Like it's super duper illegal in the world

923
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 3: in the opinion of the world's government, it's super legal

924
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 3: to kidnap people and then the torture the heck out

925
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: of them and then use that to find and torture

926
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 3: more people. The US Congress agreed with this. They ratified

927
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 3: that convention back in nineteen ninety two, before old og

928
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: George I guess we could call him son in Prescott

929
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 3: came in in ninety three and said, asterisk caveat what

930
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 3: if you know?

931
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 4: And Ben, you have a little mentioned in the outline

932
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 4: of stuff we didn't get to. I just thought we

933
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 4: should maybe get to over five seconds, just the idea

934
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 4: of these these type of operations being completely incorrect in

935
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 4: who they're targeting.

936
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 3: A Coronius Rendition.

937
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 4: There was a film I believe in two thousand and

938
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 4: seven called Rendition about that very thing, you know, about

939
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 4: a suspect that's basically they grabbed the wrong guy and

940
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 4: someone just disappeared, you know, and the wife asks the

941
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: senator for help, and that therein lies in the plot

942
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 4: of the movie. I think it's got Jake gillen Hall

943
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 4: and Meryl Streep and Reese Witherspoon in it, But I

944
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 4: think it was it was based on a real thing

945
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 4: that happened, and these types of things happened all the time.

946
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 3: Oh I don't know that.

947
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 4: I mean that all the time, but more than you'd like.

948
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 2: To think, Well, yeah, a taxi to the dark, say,

949
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 2: is based on this guy named Dilwar, who was a

950
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: taxi driver that literally picked up three guys and then

951
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: took them back to his hometown. But on the way

952
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: they stopped by what they called a firebase, and there

953
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 2: were Afghan militiaman who looked in the trunk, saw a

954
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: what do they call it, an electric stabilizer and accused

955
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: everybody in that taxi cab of having attacked the base

956
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: earlier in the day. So they all got sent to Bogram,

957
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 2: and or if they all got sent away, this guy,

958
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: Dilwar the driver was sent to Bogram where he got

959
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 2: tortured for five days and he died. And he was

960
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: literally just a taxi driver going from one place to

961
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: another and got picked up.

962
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 3: Right.

963
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, let's get back to the quote we're about

964
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: to get to from the UN.

965
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and both of the examples you guys just mentioned

966
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 3: the concept overall, the find does the concept of erroneous renedition.

967
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 3: This happened in contradiction to what Congress said when they

968
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 3: agreed with that super sexy un banger back in nineteen

969
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 3: ninety two. Congress said the US will not and this

970
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 3: is the quote expel, extradite, or otherwise affect the involuntary

971
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 3: return of any person to a country in which there

972
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 3: are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in

973
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 3: danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the

974
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 3: person is physically present in the United States. So at

975
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 3: the same time, one hand of Uncle Sam is waving

976
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 3: and saying all these great things about democracy, the other

977
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: hand is doing the exact opposite. And Congress later doubled down.

978
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 3: They said, look, you the American the global public, we

979
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 3: tots love you guys, and we're not going to green

980
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 3: light funding for any operation that leads to torture or

981
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 3: degrading treatment or anything that's prohibited by the Constitution. You

982
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 3: guys were super serial this time, for real, though, We're

983
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 3: not going to do it. Tight go USA, and the

984
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 3: USA did go. They went around the world, and they

985
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 3: did everything that Congress said was not going to happen. Look,

986
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 3: go pass the lip service, past the pr past the

987
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 3: campaign spins that are spinning up now as we speak.

988
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: The largely unelected leaders of these agencies, the inheritors of

989
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 3: these legacy programs, they continue to function. You cannot directly

990
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 3: vote for or against them or these processes. There is

991
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 3: a conspiracy afoot and the idea that you can move

992
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 3: someone from their home country to another place and do

993
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 3: whatever you want in search of nebulously defined things. That's

994
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 3: beyond the rule of law. It is logically, like we're

995
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 3: talking about earlier, it's logically perilous. It's nigh impossible to

996
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 3: defend actions that did not occur. So as a result,

997
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 3: the public will never know whether these programs resulted in

998
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 3: actually saving lives. What we can say is this, hundreds

999
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 3: and hundreds of people got sucked up in this program.

1000
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 3: There are many more currently in Guantanamo Bay. I believe

1001
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 3: twenty seven people currently held in Guatanamo Bay for any

1002
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 3: number of years have no criminal charges pending against them.

1003
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 2: They're just there, yep. And there are there are many

1004
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: other places that we'll never hear.

1005
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 3: About ever, never not once you know, it's crazy, and

1006
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 3: you know as such, if we're asking in good faith,

1007
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 3: as such, we cannot fault anyone American or otherwise who

1008
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 3: understands this information and says has the United States in

1009
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 3: these suits? Has the United States become the same monster

1010
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 3: it originally proposed to hunt? And that's a that's a

1011
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 3: terrifying question. We don't know the answers. We would We

1012
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 3: would love your opinion. We have a lot of people

1013
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 3: in the audience this evening who have some familiarity of

1014
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 3: one sort or another with this stuff, and we want

1015
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 3: to hear from you to the degree that you are

1016
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 3: safe and comfortable doing so. We have a number of

1017
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 3: ways you can contact us.

1018
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 4: That's right. You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff,

1019
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 4: where we exist all over the internet, specifically on YouTube,

1020
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 4: Facebook and XFKA Twitter. You can find us at the

1021
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 4: handle Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok, which apparently

1022
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 4: the kids are really.

1023
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 2: Into some of them. Not my kids in my house. Yeay.

1024
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 2: You can give us a call. Our number is one

1025
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: eight three three st d w y t K. When

1026
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: you call in, it's a voicemail system. Surprise, You've got

1027
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 2: three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and let us

1028
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: know if we can use your voice end message on

1029
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: one of our listener mail episodes. Hey, and if you've

1030
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: got ideas, stuff to send links, any of that, why

1031
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 2: not instead send us an email.

1032
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 3: We are the folks who read every single email we get.

1033
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 3: Send us those links, send us those photos, take us

1034
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 3: to the edge of the rabbit hole. We'll do the

1035
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 3: rest where we are a conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1036
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1037
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1038
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.