WEBVTT - Ep. 22: New West, Modern West, Public Lands West

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<v Speaker 1>While it's historical story is what creates the West and

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<v Speaker 1>the eyes of the world, for residents and most visitors today,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the public lands that now define Western life. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Dan Flores and this is the American West, brought to

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<v Speaker 1>you by Velvet Buck Wine, where the hunt meets the harvest.

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<v Speaker 1>A portion of each bottle goes to support backcountry hunters

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<v Speaker 1>and anglers. Limited supply available at Velvetbuck Vineyards dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Enjoy responsible New West's Modern West public Lands West. For

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen years of my life, I live full time in

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<v Speaker 1>the state of Texas. I'm not a Texan by birth,

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<v Speaker 1>but rather from old Louisiana families, and living in Texas

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<v Speaker 1>made me understand that you very likely do need to

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<v Speaker 1>be born and raised in that state to fully embrace

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<v Speaker 1>lone Star life. Native born Texans accept at face value

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<v Speaker 1>things about their history and modern existence there that don't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily resonate if you're from somewhere else. I spent the

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<v Speaker 1>majority of my Texas years in West Texas, but not

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<v Speaker 1>the Big Bend Country or the trans Pacos as it's known.

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<v Speaker 1>I lived in the southern high Plains, most of those

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<v Speaker 1>years in a canyon insized into the state Plain or

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<v Speaker 1>Yano West Taccado, a giant plateau spreading from the Texas

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<v Speaker 1>Panhandle across into eastern New Mexico. Was I living in

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<v Speaker 1>the West in those years? Is Texas part of the West?

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<v Speaker 1>Is West Texas part of the West. Historically Texas is

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<v Speaker 1>as much deep South as West. It was Southerners who

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<v Speaker 1>largely settled it, even West Texas, bringing their culture, religions,

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<v Speaker 1>and a drawl geographically and ecologically. The High Plains certainly

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<v Speaker 1>appear as Western, though, as the celebrated writer Joseph wood

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<v Speaker 1>Krooch put it in his book The Desert Year, as

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<v Speaker 1>he described driving the Texas Panhandle, the red eroded sandstone

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<v Speaker 1>and the cactus declare that this is New Mexico, a

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<v Speaker 1>good many miles before the map makers have recognized the fact.

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<v Speaker 1>So in High Plains Texas there are canyons and cactus

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<v Speaker 1>ranches and rodeos and index finger waves on the highway.

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<v Speaker 1>But as this region the full on modern American West,

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<v Speaker 1>it never seems so to me. And I'll tell you why.

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<v Speaker 1>We all should admit that the West's modern story is

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<v Speaker 1>as impart as it's passed. In terms of what it's

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<v Speaker 1>like to visit are to live in such a celebrated region.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's the West, merely a place with a frontier

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<v Speaker 1>history and the enduring symbols of it. If the presence

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<v Speaker 1>of cowboy hats and pickup trucks as a replacement for

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<v Speaker 1>horses is enough to muster the West, then Texas is in,

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<v Speaker 1>but so is Tennessee. If that's all you need, then

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<v Speaker 1>Austin and Nashville are both Western cities. On the other hand,

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<v Speaker 1>when today's historians identify what makes the West as a

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<v Speaker 1>region different from the rest of America, they put up

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<v Speaker 1>a ven diagram that includes a list like this number

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<v Speaker 1>one with a few exceptions, Like the Pacific Coast. The

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<v Speaker 1>West is defined by aridity, a dryness that exposes geology

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<v Speaker 1>and opens up views to far distances, which it means

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<v Speaker 1>that compared to the rest of America, the West is

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<v Speaker 1>ecologically different or unique. Beyond the ninety eighth meridian of longitude,

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<v Speaker 1>America is forested only on its high mountain ranges or

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<v Speaker 1>in deep canyons. Otherwise, sparse moisture produces grassy prairies and plains, cactus,

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<v Speaker 1>creosote and sagebrush deserts, scattered and dwarfed tree cover of

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<v Speaker 1>pinion and limber pines and junipers. Aridity also produces dry,

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<v Speaker 1>clear air, sparkling nights of polysh stars, and oceans of sunshine.

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<v Speaker 1>Despite the cowboy hats, Nashville fades out rapidly as this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of Western place. Number two. The West is often

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<v Speaker 1>thought of as wide open spaces, but it has featured

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<v Speaker 1>cities like the Great Rock buildings of the Chaco and

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<v Speaker 1>civilization as far back as a thousand years ago. Unlike

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<v Speaker 1>much of the rest of the country, the West cities

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<v Speaker 1>tend to be widely scattered in what geographers call an

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<v Speaker 1>oasis settlement pattern, with vast open lands between. That's still

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<v Speaker 1>true along both sides of the Rockies and even along

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<v Speaker 1>the densely populated Pacific Coast today. Number three. The most

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<v Speaker 1>western of American places tend to be those that still

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<v Speaker 1>retain the continent's original diagnostic wild animals and the ecologies

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<v Speaker 1>they've long shaped with wolf and grizzly bear recovery. In particular,

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<v Speaker 1>the West is the part of the country that retains

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<v Speaker 1>more of its wild keynote species than the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>the country. Number four. The West is still the home

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<v Speaker 1>of most of America's Native people, whose presence is a

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<v Speaker 1>notable feature of the region's cultural imprint and human diversity

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<v Speaker 1>Number five and five. The West is the primary region

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<v Speaker 1>of America's public lands. Whether there are national parks, monuments,

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<v Speaker 1>wildlife refuges, national forests, or national grasslands are Bureau of

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<v Speaker 1>Land Management holdings, The vast majority of the country's public lands,

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<v Speaker 1>wilderness areas, and wild and scenic rivers are in the West.

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<v Speaker 1>Most importantly of all, the presence of the West's public

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<v Speaker 1>lands provides residents and visitors and ability to access the

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<v Speaker 1>natural world to an extent that's rarely a feature of

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<v Speaker 1>modern life in other American regions. So as for the

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<v Speaker 1>high plains of West Texas, it is arid, and in

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<v Speaker 1>the places where its nature is still intact, it is

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<v Speaker 1>ecologically Western. It has cowboys and pickups and a frontier history,

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<v Speaker 1>but it lacks the other three characteristics that make up

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<v Speaker 1>today's American West. The wild bison and wolves and wild

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<v Speaker 1>horses that made up its keystone animals are almost completely gone,

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<v Speaker 1>as are its native peoples entirely long since banished to Oklahoma,

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<v Speaker 1>and the vast percentage of its landscape is not publicly

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<v Speaker 1>accessible but privately owned and often jealously decorated with those

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<v Speaker 1>symbols of the not quite West, angry and belligerent no

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<v Speaker 1>trespassing signs. Next door to Texas, However, in New Mexico,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one Native tribes live in the state. Mexican wolf

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<v Speaker 1>numbers are at nearly three hundred animals and increasing yearly,

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<v Speaker 1>and compared to Texas is one percent. In New Mexico,

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<v Speaker 1>forty two percent of the state is federally managed. The

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<v Speaker 1>vast bulk of that all but Indian reservations and military

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<v Speaker 1>installations in public and accessible form manage lands in nearby

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<v Speaker 1>Colorado make up thirty seven percent of that state, and

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<v Speaker 1>Wyoming the figure is fifty two percent, and in Montana

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<v Speaker 1>thirty three percent. Arizona's figure is seventy two percent, Utah's

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<v Speaker 1>sixty four percent, and Nevada's eighty percent. Idaho's is at

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<v Speaker 1>sixty two percent, California's forty five percent, Oregon's fifty four percent,

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<v Speaker 1>Washington State's thirty five percent, and Alaska's public lands are

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<v Speaker 1>at eighty nine percent. Texas's federal lands public are not,

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<v Speaker 1>as a reminder, make up one percent of that state.

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<v Speaker 1>The East and the Midwest, they're the percentage of accessible

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<v Speaker 1>nature ranges from one percent to nine percent. The larger

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<v Speaker 1>figure a result of later transplanting of the public lands

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<v Speaker 1>idea from the West to destroyed cutover forest lands in

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<v Speaker 1>the east. Texas has about as much publicly accessible landscape

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<v Speaker 1>as Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, and Indiana, all at one percent

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<v Speaker 1>or less. Recently, an editor of Outside magazine, long based

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<v Speaker 1>in Santa Fe, left the magazine and moved to Austin,

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<v Speaker 1>thinking he was going to a progressive urban part of

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<v Speaker 1>the West in a state with almost no way to

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<v Speaker 1>access the natural world. He didn't last six months before

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<v Speaker 1>moving back to New Mexico. Even among the Great Plain states,

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<v Speaker 1>which like West Texas, have Western aridity and frontier history

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<v Speaker 1>going for them and often do retain native populations, only

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<v Speaker 1>South Dakota, with eighteen percent of its lands federally managed,

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<v Speaker 1>can claim to be fully a part of the modern

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<v Speaker 1>American West. How did this happen with respect to the

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<v Speaker 1>public lands, whose presence or absence plays such a role

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<v Speaker 1>in how one gets to live in the world. It's

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<v Speaker 1>time for me to tell you their creation story, from

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<v Speaker 1>the time of the very first homestead acts designed by

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas Jefferson in the seventeen eighties. The former Indian lands

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<v Speaker 1>that made up the public domain the US was adding

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<v Speaker 1>to the country in the nineteenth century all went into

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<v Speaker 1>the coffers of the General Land Office or GOLO. The

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<v Speaker 1>GOLO offered land for sale or later in history as

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<v Speaker 1>free homesteads or grants to citizens non citizens, and to

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure building entities like railroads or canal builders. In the

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<v Speaker 1>tradition of the Western European countries, General Land Office holding's

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<v Speaker 1>intended destiny was to become private property through purchases Louisiana, Alaska,

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<v Speaker 1>the Gadsden purchase, diplomatic agreements with Britain for the Northwest,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, treaties for Indian lands, or for ending the

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<v Speaker 1>Mexican War and incorporating the Southwest, and finally annexations like

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<v Speaker 1>Texas and Hawaii. The US acquired an enormous amount of

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<v Speaker 1>real estate between eighteen o three and eighteen ninety eight.

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<v Speaker 1>As various federal expeditions explored those lands and reported on them,

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<v Speaker 1>a prescient handful of Americans began to wonder about privatization

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<v Speaker 1>as a blanket policy aimed so bluntly at such an

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<v Speaker 1>ecologically diverse range of landscapes, even As they did so,

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<v Speaker 1>evolving homestead laws continued to survey, partition and sell our

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<v Speaker 1>grant lands to advancing settlement. Very frequently that settlement took

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<v Speaker 1>place on lands the Indians, who had long owned the

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<v Speaker 1>ground had barely left. During and after the Civil War,

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<v Speaker 1>two influential Americans in particular worried about this privatezation tradition

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<v Speaker 1>in widely read influential volumes. One of those volumes became

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<v Speaker 1>a best seller, the other one a widely discussed congressional report.

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<v Speaker 1>The author of the best seller was an American diplomat

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<v Speaker 1>named George Perkins Marsh, a polymath New Englander who read

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<v Speaker 1>twenty languages and as a result, received diplomatic appointments all

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<v Speaker 1>over the globe. Marsh wrote a book in eighteen sixty

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<v Speaker 1>four he called Man and Nature. In effect, this was

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<v Speaker 1>the first modern history of the environment any writer had

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<v Speaker 1>ever attempted. Although Marsh took on a huge range of

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<v Speaker 1>topics relating to humanity's relationship with the natural world, Man

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<v Speaker 1>in Nature became most famous for its description of a

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<v Speaker 1>pattern the author had observed in places as disparate as France, Turkey,

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<v Speaker 1>and China. Rivers had always been crucial to human civilization,

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<v Speaker 1>he wrote, and almost everywhere their origins were in mountains.

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<v Speaker 1>But privatizing mountains the well springs of water that were

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<v Speaker 1>so critical to human development had been a disaster almost everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Countries that let it happen. Private interest that logged and

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<v Speaker 1>grazed mountains had destroyed their watersheds and created landscapes that,

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<v Speaker 1>Marsh stead looked like the surface of the moon, ruining

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<v Speaker 1>the possibilities to settle inhabitable valleys below. As a brand

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<v Speaker 1>new country, the US still had time to avoid such

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<v Speaker 1>a mistake. Marsh believed the solution was to remove its

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<v Speaker 1>mountain landscapes from private settlement that would invite overlogging and overgrazing,

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<v Speaker 1>to retain them instead as public preserves to protect the

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<v Speaker 1>West Snow Fountain watersheds, critical for providing water to the

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<v Speaker 1>surrounding arid country. Marsh's book went through eight printings and

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<v Speaker 1>appeared in a new edition in eighteen seventy one, and

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<v Speaker 1>its success brought his argument to the attention of the

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<v Speaker 1>National Association for the Advancement of Science, which in eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>seventy three endorsed Marsh's new policy recommendation. The other author

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<v Speaker 1>was a one armed Civil War veteran who became the

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<v Speaker 1>most famous American explorer of the post war era and

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<v Speaker 1>eventually the most powerful bureaucrat in government in the late century.

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<v Speaker 1>John Wesley Powell had lost an arm at Shiloh, but

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<v Speaker 1>that couldn't prevent him from leading the first party to

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<v Speaker 1>take on the dangerous and unknown descent of the Grand Canyon,

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<v Speaker 1>which he did not once but twice, even serializing the

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<v Speaker 1>account of his adventures in the most popular magazines of

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<v Speaker 1>the day. Then, in eighteen seventy eight, the year before

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<v Speaker 1>he became the director of the new US Geological Survey,

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<v Speaker 1>Powell laid before Congress his masterpiece for rethinking public domain

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<v Speaker 1>policies in America. The lands of the arid region of

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. Didn't exactly endorse Marsh's plan, Powell focused

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<v Speaker 1>more on the diversity of public domain landscapes and why

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<v Speaker 1>Congress should tailor different settlement plans for valleys, foothills, and mountains.

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<v Speaker 1>He even offered up a map of the West, projecting

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<v Speaker 1>a bile regional future for it, with settlement and governments

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<v Speaker 1>organized around rivers and watersheds. Yet, by emphasizing the special

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<v Speaker 1>difficulty settlers were facing in a West that was far

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<v Speaker 1>more desert like than any place Americans had ever tried.

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<v Speaker 1>The homestead. Powell added yet another layer of reasoning why

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<v Speaker 1>protecting the mountain sources of western water was so crucial.

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<v Speaker 1>Powell did point out that press ccidents were already in

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<v Speaker 1>place for public lands in the West from its beginnings

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<v Speaker 1>in the early sixteen hundreds, Spanish colonization in New Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>had made land grants in the high elevation mountains to

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<v Speaker 1>communities settling the valleys below them. These land grants, known

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<v Speaker 1>as aheitos, were used in common for firewood stock grazing, hunting,

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<v Speaker 1>and irrigation of mountain rains and snowpacks by all of

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<v Speaker 1>the residents of the valley towns. Powell also admired a

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<v Speaker 1>different pattern of public lands Mormon settlers in Utah were trying.

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<v Speaker 1>The Mormon approach involved communal sharing of high mountain resources

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<v Speaker 1>carried out through church sanctioned monopolies like the one granted

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<v Speaker 1>to Parley Pratt in the Salt Lake Highlands that still

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<v Speaker 1>today is known as Parley's Canyon. Those managers then made

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<v Speaker 1>the public use of grass, timber, and water available in

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<v Speaker 1>the upland when the interior Department proclaimed US Forest reserves

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<v Speaker 1>in the New Mexico and Utah Mountain Ranges. Both those

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<v Speaker 1>precedents ended up abandoned, although not without a fight. In

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, Spanish land grants had passed intact to the

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Republic of Mexico during the twenty seven years that Mexico

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 1>controlled the Southwest. An Article eight of the treaty that

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.920
<v Speaker 1>ended the Mexican War with the US promised full protection

0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.199
<v Speaker 1>for those land grants, which by eighteen forty eight blanketed

0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.600
<v Speaker 1>almost eighty percent of New Mexico. But American law, with

0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:43.600
<v Speaker 1>its elaborate protections for individual property rights, had little experience

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>with the property rights of communities. In the eighteen ninety

0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:52.399
<v Speaker 1>seven Sandivil Decision, the US Supreme Court decided that land

0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 1>grants to communities implied such public use that the lands

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.879
<v Speaker 1>granted had actually remained in legal possession of the Spanish

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:06.400
<v Speaker 1>and Mexican governments, thus were now part of the public

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.800
<v Speaker 1>domain of the United States. The twelve million acres of

0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 1>land grants the US did approve in New Mexico were

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:19.399
<v Speaker 1>those that had gone exclusively to individual grantees. Hence the

0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Southern Rockies was cleared for the designation of the Pacos

0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.760
<v Speaker 1>and Santa Fe Forest Reserves as part of America's public lands.

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Pacos Forest Reserve, in fact, was already designated before the

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Sandevil case even went before the court. Here's how all

0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:44.560
<v Speaker 1>this public lands happened. In eighteen ninety one, Republican President

0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Benjamin Harrison's administration passed an Appropriation's Bill for the General

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Land Office that included a writer that by eighteen ninety

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 1>three would place thirteen million acres of the West Mountains

0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 1>off limits to homes and privatization. As has been the

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.119
<v Speaker 1>case for a great many conservation and environmental policies, the

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:11.960
<v Speaker 1>idea was embraced by both political parties. Before he left office.

0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.600
<v Speaker 1>In eighteen ninety seven, Democrat Grover Cleveland added another twenty

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:21.600
<v Speaker 1>one million acres to the West Forest Reserves. By this point,

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.399
<v Speaker 1>twenty forest reserves lay across the forested mountains of every

0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Western state except Nevada, and stretched from the Rockies to

0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.399
<v Speaker 1>the Pacific coasts. While private home setting continued on the

0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Great Plains and in the Western Valleys. These new high

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.960
<v Speaker 1>elevation public lands, designed originally to protect the West Snow

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.399
<v Speaker 1>Fountain sources of water, now included a total of thirty

0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:52.280
<v Speaker 1>four million acres. This was the beginning in the Sierra Nevadas,

0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the Cascades, the Rockies, and numerous detached island mountains in

0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:03.920
<v Speaker 1>the desert west of what evad into America's National Forest system.

0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 1>There were still steps remaining in establishing the full foundation.

0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Appointed Chief Forester of the Reserves in eighteen ninety eight,

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 1>Yale Gifford Pinchot began work on what became the multiple

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>use principle. These lands of many uses, as Pinchot told

0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 1>audiences all over the West, wouldn't simply be locked away.

0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Planning both for the future and for democratic use. Pinchot

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:40.480
<v Speaker 1>underlined that the Forest Service would regulate the reserves, but

0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.159
<v Speaker 1>they would not be closed off. Instead, they would be

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:49.560
<v Speaker 1>used for watershed protection, for grazing, for logging, for recreation,

0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.760
<v Speaker 1>and since many of the West's remaining animals had fled

0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.640
<v Speaker 1>to the mountains, for wildlife habitat, to emphasize that these

0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 1>lands now belonged to the American citizens, no matter where

0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.360
<v Speaker 1>in the country they lived. In nineteen oh seven, Pinchot

0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:10.480
<v Speaker 1>and President Roosevelt decided to rename them the National Forests.

0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 1>This conversion of so much of the American landscape from

0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:19.800
<v Speaker 1>potential private entry to public ownership and federal management had

0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>already shocked conservatives, who began calling the new policy pink

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:31.200
<v Speaker 1>tea socialism. So maybe the new National Forests designation lubricated

0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:36.600
<v Speaker 1>the hit somewhat when Roosevelt stunned conservatives by dramatically adding

0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty five million more acres to the system,

0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.480
<v Speaker 1>bringing the totals by the time he left office to

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:49.160
<v Speaker 1>fifty one national forests covering a whopping one hundred fifty

0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:53.720
<v Speaker 1>nine million acres, all of it in the West, and

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt wasn't done. The public land system for the West

0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.480
<v Speaker 1>and increasingly for small parts of the the rest of

0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 1>the country included a new designation made possible by the

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:09.159
<v Speaker 1>nineteen oh six Antiquities Act, to protect archaeological sites and

0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:14.119
<v Speaker 1>those unusual geologic features like the Grand Canyon. Unlike the

0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 1>more complicated creation of national parks, this Act allowed the

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 1>president to make designations out of the public domain, so

0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt himself proclaimed eighteen of these new national monuments, several

0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.919
<v Speaker 1>of which, like the Grand Canyon, went on eventually to

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:37.280
<v Speaker 1>become national parks. While the United States had pioneered the

0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 1>idea and reality of the national park. We had never

0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 1>created a National Park Service. Whether the existing national parks

0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.639
<v Speaker 1>were intended to last was called into question when, with

0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:54.120
<v Speaker 1>Theodore Roosevelt's blessing, the hetch Hetchy Valley of the Grand

0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.439
<v Speaker 1>Canyon of the Tuolomie River and Yosemite National Park became

0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.879
<v Speaker 1>the destination of a dam and reservoir to provide water

0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.640
<v Speaker 1>for San Francisco. That led to calls for the creation

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.920
<v Speaker 1>of a National Park Service to manage the parks, which

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Congress finally created in nineteen sixteen. By nineteen thirty two,

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.920
<v Speaker 1>the Park Service was administering twenty two National parks and

0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 1>thirty six National monuments focused on America's most monumental and

0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.480
<v Speaker 1>most vertical scenery, the overwhelming number of the so called

0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:37.720
<v Speaker 1>crown jewels parks like Yellowstone, Glacier, Mount Rainier, Sequoia, Rocky Mountain,

0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Grand Canyon, Zion, Mount McKinley, or in the American West.

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:47.520
<v Speaker 1>The same was true of the monuments, the wildlife refuges,

0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:52.199
<v Speaker 1>the national forests. This was the public land system that

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.919
<v Speaker 1>has made life in the modern West distinctive from life

0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:59.600
<v Speaker 1>elsewhere in America. It was the system that provided the

0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:03.359
<v Speaker 1>habit possible to retain most of the historic bestiary of

0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:07.479
<v Speaker 1>the West's original animals, particularly as big predators, And it

0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.360
<v Speaker 1>was the system that made access to the natural world

0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.240
<v Speaker 1>a reality for Western citizens, and in the nineteen sixties

0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:19.120
<v Speaker 1>would make setting aside vast wilderness areas and scenic wild

0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:25.240
<v Speaker 1>rivers possible. There would be farms, ranches, and towns located

0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:28.800
<v Speaker 1>around the borders of all these vast expanses of public

0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:33.920
<v Speaker 1>forests and parks, but not within them, despite roads, trails,

0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:41.040
<v Speaker 1>campgrounds tourists within them. Big nature prevailed. Instead of replicating

0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.280
<v Speaker 1>the East with the public land settlement in the western

0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:47.320
<v Speaker 1>third of the country, we had angled off on a

0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:53.720
<v Speaker 1>new historical trajectory. Of course, into the nineteen thirties, homesteading

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.560
<v Speaker 1>and private entry continued in some places in the West.

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:00.600
<v Speaker 1>In fact, there were more Western home stays taken up

0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 1>after nineteen hundred than before that year. But with most

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:08.240
<v Speaker 1>of the West mountains and canyons now public lands, private

0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:11.480
<v Speaker 1>lands were largely at low elevation, and a great many

0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 1>were out in the open plains country of states like

0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:19.399
<v Speaker 1>Colorado and Montana. Many of the counties on the Great

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Plains reached their highest all time populations with homesteading in

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:30.119
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen twenties. But when agricultural prices dropped precipitously after

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:34.840
<v Speaker 1>the Great War, followed by wind and drought across country

0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:39.320
<v Speaker 1>now plowed and stripped of its protecting grasslands, the policy

0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:43.480
<v Speaker 1>of continuing to privatize the Western public domain began to

0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 1>seem like a bad bet and an open invitation for

0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:52.680
<v Speaker 1>human disaster, as the dust Bowl rage from West Texas

0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:57.240
<v Speaker 1>and Oklahoma all the way to eastern Montana and hundreds

0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 1>of thousands of people abandoned their homesteads and the words

0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:04.399
<v Speaker 1>of the Woody Guthrie song of the time, so long

0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>It's been good to know you. In nineteen thirty three,

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:13.640
<v Speaker 1>the Franklin Roosevelt administration elected to call an end to homesteading.

0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.000
<v Speaker 1>It was the end of a grand American tradition that

0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:21.800
<v Speaker 1>was almost one hundred and fifty years old. Whatever further

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:26.000
<v Speaker 1>privatization of the Western public domain happened was now limited

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 1>to irrigation developments around some of the new Western dams

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:34.240
<v Speaker 1>and reservoirs. In fact, the US went so far as

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:39.320
<v Speaker 1>to turn back the clock on a Western ownership society.

0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:44.960
<v Speaker 1>The FED actually resettled thousands of people elsewhere and bought

0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:48.760
<v Speaker 1>back homesteads and a few of the worst wind whip

0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:54.040
<v Speaker 1>and eroded areas, then laboriously replanted them and incorporated them

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.479
<v Speaker 1>back into the public domain in the form of the

0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:03.920
<v Speaker 1>National Grasslands. As for all the unsettled leftover low elevation

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:06.840
<v Speaker 1>country in the West, two hundred and forty five million

0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:09.800
<v Speaker 1>acres of it, In fact, much of it was true

0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:13.920
<v Speaker 1>desert that the Fed retained in ownership, to be administered

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:18.320
<v Speaker 1>by a new agency called the Grazing Service, which by

0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.520
<v Speaker 1>mid century had become yet another of the West public

0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:30.439
<v Speaker 1>land agencies, the Bureau of Land Management. Like many of

0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:33.639
<v Speaker 1>us who grew up in other regions and when we

0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:36.600
<v Speaker 1>got to live in the public lands West, decided we'd

0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:39.240
<v Speaker 1>died in gone to Heaven. I've done my best to

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:43.720
<v Speaker 1>take advantage of my unprecedented access to the West natural world.

0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>I've done three week float trips down the Grand Canyon,

0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:52.600
<v Speaker 1>week long backpacks through the Tuolomy Canyon in Yosemite, packed

0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:56.560
<v Speaker 1>across Montana's Glacier Park from its western boundary to its

0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:00.640
<v Speaker 1>eastern one, and traversed the wilderness of the Wind River

0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Range in Wyoming in the opposite direction east to West.

0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:08.000
<v Speaker 1>I've done a twelve day raft trip through the Arctic

0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 1>National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska, canoe the wild and Scenic

0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Missouri River, climbed Santa fe Baldi in the Southern Rockies

0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and the National Forest there, and watched wolves and grizzlies

0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:25.280
<v Speaker 1>in Yellowstone Parks Lamar Valley. Had history turned out differently,

0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 1>I guess I could have had experiences like that on

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:32.359
<v Speaker 1>the Texas High Plains too. The truth is I did

0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 1>do such things when I lived in Texas, but I

0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:38.600
<v Speaker 1>had to trespass and outlaw hike to do them. Why

0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:42.840
<v Speaker 1>that was the case requires a story, and I'll close

0:28:42.880 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>here by telling it. The reasons that Texas High Plains

0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:50.080
<v Speaker 1>fall short of being a part of the modern West

0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 1>have to do with things that happened in Texas long ago.

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Unlike much of America prior to US annexation in eighteen

0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:04.240
<v Speaker 1>forty five, Texas existed as an independent country for nearly

0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 1>a decade. The eighteen thirties was the time when Indian

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:13.400
<v Speaker 1>removal from the South and East was US policy, and

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.920
<v Speaker 1>the Texas population was almost wholly from the Deep South.

0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 1>What followed is the kind of history that just doesn't

0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:26.560
<v Speaker 1>remain in the past, the Republic of Texas committed itself

0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:31.200
<v Speaker 1>to the entire removal of its native population. That's a

0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:36.800
<v Speaker 1>step we'd call ethnic cleansing today. Doing so required considerable

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 1>military effort, which cost money. Texas ended up borrowing from

0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Britain and France. So Texas's annexation brought into the US

0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 1>a state that had largely banished its Indians, and owed

0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:54.360
<v Speaker 1>so much money for doing so that the United States

0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 1>refused to take on the debt. The only solution to

0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:02.240
<v Speaker 1>that was to permit to to retain title to its

0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:08.680
<v Speaker 1>lands and privatize virtually every acre to raise revenue. This

0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 1>history is why of the Texas High Plains has no comanches,

0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:18.400
<v Speaker 1>caiawas Cheyennes or apaches all long ago removed to Oklahoma.

0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:23.840
<v Speaker 1>It's why ranches and farms protected by no trespassing signs

0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:28.160
<v Speaker 1>occupy almost every parcel of ground. Why there was little

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.440
<v Speaker 1>or no habitat for buffalo and none at all for wolves.

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:34.880
<v Speaker 1>And it's a powerful reason why the Texas High Plains

0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 1>missed out on its one grand chance to join the

0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:43.600
<v Speaker 1>public Lands West. And it did have a chance. In

0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:48.520
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen thirties, National park personnel looking for new parks

0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:52.960
<v Speaker 1>began to pay attention to ecologist interest in the overlooked

0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:57.360
<v Speaker 1>Great Plains. No landscapes on the Great Plains measured up

0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 1>to the monumental scenery of a Yosemite or Grand Canyon,

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 1>and most of the plains was now in private hands.

0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:07.880
<v Speaker 1>But the Park Service hoped to overcome those obstacles, and

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Palo Duro Canyon, a sixty mile long, thousand foot deep

0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:16.240
<v Speaker 1>roar of color where the Red River carved through the

0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:21.920
<v Speaker 1>high plains. Plateau, was historically a famous Western landscape, a

0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 1>Comanche hideaway, and home to legendary Texas ranger Charles Goodnight's Ranch.

0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Tommy Lee Jones's Captain Call in Lonesome Dove is a

0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:37.120
<v Speaker 1>portrayal of good Night. By the way, Palo Duro seemed

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:41.960
<v Speaker 1>a perfect locale for a large Great Plains park. The

0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>emerging artist Georgia O'Keeffe exhibited paintings of it in New

0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:49.320
<v Speaker 1>York in nineteen seventeen, and when one of its ranches

0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:53.520
<v Speaker 1>opened its gates to the public, fourteen thousand people showed

0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:57.360
<v Speaker 1>up to see the canyon. Texas was planning a small

0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 1>state park there, and Palo Duro as a national park,

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.000
<v Speaker 1>had champions in Texas and beyond, one of which was

0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:08.840
<v Speaker 1>Enos Mills, the so called John Muir of the Rockies.

0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:13.680
<v Speaker 1>In the nineteen thirties, a man named Roger Toll was

0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:16.960
<v Speaker 1>a kind of one man, naked or break it investigator

0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:19.720
<v Speaker 1>for the National Park Service, and in nineteen thirty three

0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:22.960
<v Speaker 1>and thirty four he was touring Texas to assess potential

0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:27.960
<v Speaker 1>national parks. Now, the Park Service had no acquisition budget

0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 1>to acquire private lands to create parks. All the existing

0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:35.040
<v Speaker 1>parks had been created from the public lands, but it

0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:39.560
<v Speaker 1>hoped that, as had happened back east for Acadia, Great

0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:45.080
<v Speaker 1>Smoky Mountains and Shenandoah Parks, locals would raise the money

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:49.680
<v Speaker 1>to acquire the land. As told journey to Texas. In Washington,

0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:53.160
<v Speaker 1>park personnel were assembling maps and materials for the creation

0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 1>of a million acre National Park of the plains around

0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Palo Duro, a huge park half the size of Yellowstone.

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 1>But after spending four days in the canyon, including visiting

0:33:06.440 --> 0:33:10.680
<v Speaker 1>its most scenic and dramatic side gorge, the Tulee Narrows,

0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Told decided that Palo Duro would rate below the present

0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:19.600
<v Speaker 1>scenic national parks. He was also concerned about real essate

0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 1>values in Texas and whether Texans would come up with

0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the money to acquire the canyon. The West Texas Canyon

0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:30.640
<v Speaker 1>had now caught the eye of the National Park Service, though,

0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:34.800
<v Speaker 1>and the new idea was for a national monument based

0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:39.720
<v Speaker 1>on Palo Duro's geological uniqueness, a kind of first Chapter

0:33:39.880 --> 0:33:44.080
<v Speaker 1>of Genesis national Monument for tourists heading west on the

0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:49.440
<v Speaker 1>Mother Road Route sixty six. So in October of nineteen

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:53.000
<v Speaker 1>thirty eight and thirty nine, the Park Service initiated a

0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:56.400
<v Speaker 1>second review of Palo Duro. This time, the idea was

0:33:56.440 --> 0:34:00.959
<v Speaker 1>for a more modest Southern High Plains National mind of

0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:05.400
<v Speaker 1>roughly one hundred and thirty five thousand acres. The final

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 1>report included an estimate of the acquisition costs some two

0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:13.400
<v Speaker 1>hundred ninety four thousand dollars, plus another two hundred and

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 1>sixty four thousand to fold in the fifteen thousand acre

0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 1>state park. The monument boundaries excluded Touley Canyon and its

0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:27.800
<v Speaker 1>spectacular gorge, but hopes for future expansion were already eyeing

0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:31.040
<v Speaker 1>that section as The report that hoped to make the

0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Texas High Plains part of the Public Lands West put

0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:37.879
<v Speaker 1>it from the standpoint of geology and scenery. Palo Duro

0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:41.520
<v Speaker 1>is well worthy of being made into a national monument.

0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:46.080
<v Speaker 1>It's the most spectacular canyon carved by erosion anywhere on

0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 1>the Great Plains of North America. When word of the

0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:54.600
<v Speaker 1>proposal got out, there was public support, all right, but

0:34:54.640 --> 0:35:00.160
<v Speaker 1>it was mostly from Denver, Albuquerque, and Oklahoma City. Texans

0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 1>seemed oddly ambivalent. No wealthy oil visionary from the lone

0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Star state stepped forward the way the Rockefellers were then

0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 1>doing in Jackson Hole to create Grand Tetai National Park.

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:20.279
<v Speaker 1>So ambivalents or apathy are more likely. Ideological opposition to

0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:24.480
<v Speaker 1>public lands in a state unfamiliar with that idea killed

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:29.760
<v Speaker 1>this main chance. Texas's State Park Division has since double

0:35:29.840 --> 0:35:33.800
<v Speaker 1>Pallo Duro State Park the thirty thousand acres, although without

0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:37.560
<v Speaker 1>making the wilder parts of it accessible with trails and camps,

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:42.719
<v Speaker 1>and it's created a second sixteen thousand acre park, Caprock

0:35:42.800 --> 0:35:47.120
<v Speaker 1>Canyon Lands, thirty five miles to the south. Caproc is

0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:50.080
<v Speaker 1>beautiful and wild and has a free roaming bison herd.

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:53.839
<v Speaker 1>But these state parks just aren't extensive enough to make

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the Texas High Plains a public lands region. In our time,

0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:02.120
<v Speaker 1>the passion for life in the modern public lands West

0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:06.280
<v Speaker 1>is powerfully evident. When the Trump administration in twenty twenty

0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:10.240
<v Speaker 1>five tried to insert a partial dissolution of the Western

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 1>public lands as part of the so called Big Beautiful Bill,

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:18.359
<v Speaker 1>the outcry in the West was deafening. It came from

0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:23.480
<v Speaker 1>both the left and the right, from hunters, environmentalists, ecologists,

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.880
<v Speaker 1>and day hikers. In Santa Fe, where the Western Governor's

0:36:27.960 --> 0:36:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Conference was held in June twenty twenty five, a pro

0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:37.279
<v Speaker 1>public lands protests of thousands filled the streets and drowned

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:41.719
<v Speaker 1>out the conference in this Western capital city for hours.

0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:47.800
<v Speaker 1>The conclusion from events like this is inescapable. A century

0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:52.000
<v Speaker 1>of Western lifestyles formed by and built around public lands

0:36:52.280 --> 0:36:55.839
<v Speaker 1>has now entirely transformed this American region and made it

0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:59.400
<v Speaker 1>distinctive in the United States and the world. It turns

0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:04.200
<v Speaker 1>out the public lands have created the American West just

0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:12.120
<v Speaker 1>as much as its frontier history ever did.

0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to kick this off with a little personal anecdote.

0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:25.320
<v Speaker 2>When I was in college and finishing up, I wanted

0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:28.360
<v Speaker 2>to go bear hunting, and I looked online and I

0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:30.320
<v Speaker 2>saw I could buy a bear tag in Montana for

0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.360
<v Speaker 2>like two hundred dollars, and I thought, where do you

0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:35.960
<v Speaker 2>go hunting? Once you get out to Montana? And when

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I was growing up, you know, we'd in all the

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.560
<v Speaker 2>National parks trips and Benda Glacier and Yellowstone and everything

0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 2>like that. But I very distinctly have a moment of

0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:49.200
<v Speaker 2>looking at a map and thinking, I wonder if I

0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:52.400
<v Speaker 2>can hunt in these national forests and going online. And

0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:55.640
<v Speaker 2>this is before the days of you know, podcasts and

0:37:56.520 --> 0:38:00.640
<v Speaker 2>online research tools for hunters and everything, and I looked

0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:02.440
<v Speaker 2>up can you hunt in National forces?

0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:05.200
<v Speaker 3>And I got the answer yes.

0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.640
<v Speaker 2>And then I started looking at all the national forests

0:38:08.680 --> 0:38:13.440
<v Speaker 2>across the West, and it was like, you know, the

0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:16.880
<v Speaker 2>scales came off my eyes or whatever biblical metaphor is appropriate,

0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:19.880
<v Speaker 2>because I was just thinking, holy shit, there's a whole

0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:23.759
<v Speaker 2>world out there that I can just go to and

0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.600
<v Speaker 2>check out, you know, having come from a place where

0:38:27.040 --> 0:38:30.000
<v Speaker 2>we deer hunted on ten acre chunks and twenty acre chunks.

0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:31.360
<v Speaker 1>And in this.

0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:38.520
<v Speaker 2>Chapter you talk about how that shapes a person knowing

0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:41.000
<v Speaker 2>that they have access to these spaces and that they

0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:44.440
<v Speaker 2>can go out and sort of discover things and discover

0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>things about themselves on these landscapes. So I wonder if

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you could just talk about your first moment where you

0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:54.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of realized what the implications of these public lands

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:55.800
<v Speaker 2>had for your life.

0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:01.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, I grew up in theis Louisiana, as you know,

0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:11.040
<v Speaker 1>and and I began at some point, and again it

0:39:11.640 --> 0:39:14.239
<v Speaker 1>was out of the same sort of experiences where once

0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:18.680
<v Speaker 1>family takes you off to the West and see to

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 1>see national parks and things like that. But I was

0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:24.240
<v Speaker 1>four years old when I went off on a trip

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:27.479
<v Speaker 1>like that, so I wasn't really able to comprehend much

0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:31.880
<v Speaker 1>about the world other than while the West sure seems

0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:34.439
<v Speaker 1>to be sunny and beautiful compared to the Louisiana, which

0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 1>is so green and close in. But I basically when

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:42.520
<v Speaker 1>I got to the West, when I first started going,

0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:45.880
<v Speaker 1>and it was in my late teens and early twenties,

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:48.759
<v Speaker 1>because I was fascinated with the West, and as soon

0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:51.359
<v Speaker 1>as I could drive a car and my parents would

0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:54.239
<v Speaker 1>let me take a car overnight, I mean immediately drove

0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:58.960
<v Speaker 1>off towards New Mexico and Colorado to go see the country,

0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:02.160
<v Speaker 1>and then made that kind of a summer road trip

0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:05.400
<v Speaker 1>every summer from then on all through my twenties and thirties.

0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:09.560
<v Speaker 1>What I began to realize, is that you know? And

0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:14.400
<v Speaker 1>I remember there was a line from an Aldo Leopold passage,

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:16.720
<v Speaker 1>I think it was probably from a San County almanac

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:20.600
<v Speaker 1>where he said, of what use are forty freedoms if

0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:23.440
<v Speaker 1>you don't have a world to get into? And what

0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:29.319
<v Speaker 1>I recognized about that statement was that he was describing

0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:33.000
<v Speaker 1>this situation I had grown up in where so much

0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:35.960
<v Speaker 1>of the world is off limits, it's fenced, it's posted,

0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.080
<v Speaker 1>you can't get at it. And suddenly, here's a part

0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:41.799
<v Speaker 1>of America, and it seemed like, in some respects the

0:40:41.840 --> 0:40:45.880
<v Speaker 1>best part of America, the grandest mountains, the deepest canyons,

0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:51.919
<v Speaker 1>the most extensive plains, the most starlit skies at night,

0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:56.440
<v Speaker 1>that was open to the world. And so it was

0:40:56.640 --> 0:41:00.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of it was one of those moments, one of

0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:06.240
<v Speaker 1>those precious moments in life, when I suddenly realized, holy cow,

0:41:06.880 --> 0:41:09.800
<v Speaker 1>here is an opportunity and a place in the country

0:41:09.840 --> 0:41:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I grew up in to be able to get at

0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:13.759
<v Speaker 1>the world in a way I've never been able to

0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 1>do so. So that was provided by the public lands

0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:21.440
<v Speaker 1>of the West, and that made me really intrigued by

0:41:21.920 --> 0:41:25.560
<v Speaker 1>this topic. And one of the things I did in

0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:30.720
<v Speaker 1>my career as a writer who was interested in environmental

0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:33.800
<v Speaker 1>issues was to try to figure out how that happened.

0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:38.319
<v Speaker 1>How did the West get these public lands and what

0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:42.319
<v Speaker 1>does that mean? Because obviously it produces a different kind

0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:45.680
<v Speaker 1>of lifestyle where you have access to the world than

0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>when you don't. And so that's what this particular episode

0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:56.120
<v Speaker 1>and script are about, is to explain how this happened.

0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:59.080
<v Speaker 1>And it's the kind of thing that didn't happen everywhere.

0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:01.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, one of the reasons I use Texas, where

0:42:01.800 --> 0:42:04.359
<v Speaker 1>I live for for a number of years as an

0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:08.359
<v Speaker 1>example is Texas was a piece of America that had

0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:13.320
<v Speaker 1>a different history and a different trajectory than the rest

0:42:13.360 --> 0:42:16.640
<v Speaker 1>of the American West did, and it ended up in

0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:18.080
<v Speaker 1>a very different situation.

0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:24.960
<v Speaker 2>And you point out early on that public lands or something,

0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>and the story of public lands sort of bends back

0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:35.320
<v Speaker 2>against what the founding fathers and vision, right, And when

0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:38.640
<v Speaker 2>you think about Jefferson and his vision for the future,

0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:43.239
<v Speaker 2>this is something that was just a blind spot, not

0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to you know, be a historical here, but there's sort

0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:49.640
<v Speaker 2>of a blind spot. It's not something that the founders

0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:53.320
<v Speaker 2>would ever have dreamed of, right it And it almost

0:42:53.400 --> 0:42:57.799
<v Speaker 2>runs counter to their values, and yet there's this moment.

0:42:57.600 --> 0:42:58.440
<v Speaker 3>At which.

0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Sort of a utilitarian there's like two forces at work

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:08.680
<v Speaker 2>here that combine to really create the system of public land.

0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:12.359
<v Speaker 2>And there's a utilitarian lens, and then there's also sort

0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:20.319
<v Speaker 2>of this more idealistic conservation or preservationist lens as well.

0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:24.080
<v Speaker 1>Bush produces the National Parks on the one hand, the latter,

0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:28.520
<v Speaker 1>and something like the Bureau of Land Management tracts and

0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.520
<v Speaker 1>National forests on the other hand. Yeah, I think that's

0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:36.239
<v Speaker 1>a good way to think of it, Randall. From the beginning,

0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 1>of course, Jefferson, who designs the first homestead acts with

0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:44.040
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the seventeen eighty five and seventeen eighty

0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:47.840
<v Speaker 1>seven declarations about how we're going to survey land and

0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.720
<v Speaker 1>we're going to offer it for sale to the public.

0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:56.080
<v Speaker 1>He envisioned a nation of yeoman farmers, as he said,

0:43:56.080 --> 0:44:00.399
<v Speaker 1>who would sweep across the continent and do this from

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:06.840
<v Speaker 1>shore to shore. What circumvented that from playing out to

0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:13.279
<v Speaker 1>its logical conclusion where everything gets privatized was the realization

0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:19.040
<v Speaker 1>when people unlike Jefferson, who never saw the west, actually

0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:23.320
<v Speaker 1>were there and began looking at the landscape west of

0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:27.080
<v Speaker 1>the hundredth meridian, which was so completely different from the

0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:32.799
<v Speaker 1>landscapes east of that line, is that this may not

0:44:33.000 --> 0:44:36.080
<v Speaker 1>be a smart thing to do. It may not be

0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:39.640
<v Speaker 1>a good idea to put somebody on a homestead, for example,

0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:44.400
<v Speaker 1>out in the sagebrush deserts of what becomes Nevada. And

0:44:44.520 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 1>what really sort of sparked the whole idea was the

0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:53.360
<v Speaker 1>insight of people like George Perkins Marsh who had traveled

0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:58.400
<v Speaker 1>the world and realized in most of the world, because

0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:05.040
<v Speaker 1>rivers are so important, especially in arid countries, their origins

0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.279
<v Speaker 1>in mountains have to be protected. You have to make

0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:13.160
<v Speaker 1>sure that mountains don't end up overgrazesed, overlogged, torn up,

0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:17.960
<v Speaker 1>because that makes it impossible really to regulate the water

0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:22.319
<v Speaker 1>that can function to provide for towns and cities in

0:45:22.360 --> 0:45:25.399
<v Speaker 1>the valleys below them. So it was George Perkins Marsh

0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:27.560
<v Speaker 1>with his I mean, it's a monumental book that all

0:45:27.600 --> 0:45:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Americans I don't know about. It's called Man in Nature,

0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:33.239
<v Speaker 1>published in eighteen sixty four during the Civil War. It's

0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:35.880
<v Speaker 1>the first book that really engages with the kind of

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:39.080
<v Speaker 1>topics that one would think of as being the history

0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:43.600
<v Speaker 1>of people and the environment and One of the arguments

0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:46.200
<v Speaker 1>that he makes in that book is that while America

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:50.400
<v Speaker 1>still has the opportunity, and we still do, because settlement

0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.719
<v Speaker 1>is just now proceeding to the Rockies, the Cascades, the

0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Sierra Nevadas, we should stop and think about whether or

0:45:57.440 --> 0:45:59.480
<v Speaker 1>not we want to privatize that part of the world.

0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Should probably try to hold on to it as in

0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:08.239
<v Speaker 1>public ownership and manage it for water, because water is

0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:10.680
<v Speaker 1>so critical in the aired West, and that'll make it

0:46:10.719 --> 0:46:14.480
<v Speaker 1>possible to settle all these valley lands at lower elevation.

0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.840
<v Speaker 1>And of course, along with along with George Perkins Marsh,

0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:23.840
<v Speaker 1>there was John Wisley Powell, who was intimately becoming familiar

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.799
<v Speaker 1>with the West, floating the Grand Canyon and taking students

0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 1>all over the West, from Colorado to Montana and Idaho,

0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:36.640
<v Speaker 1>and who was putting together as the first director of

0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:40.680
<v Speaker 1>the United States Geological Survey, these kinds of plans where

0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:43.560
<v Speaker 1>here's how we ought to be settling an arid region.

0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:46.640
<v Speaker 1>The east is not aird, this country is arid, and

0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:48.319
<v Speaker 1>here's how we ought to do it. I mean one

0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:50.640
<v Speaker 1>of the things, of course that he comes up with,

0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.120
<v Speaker 1>which we didn't implement, but I mean a lot of

0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:56.920
<v Speaker 1>people have looked at those maps that Powell drew in

0:46:57.000 --> 0:47:00.239
<v Speaker 1>eighteen seventy eight and eighteen seventy nine for a kind

0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:06.600
<v Speaker 1>of a bioregional West where everything political is evaluated and

0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 1>based on water. I mean, you have what he sort

0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.279
<v Speaker 1>of put together as little commonwealths on the Arkansas River,

0:47:14.400 --> 0:47:18.080
<v Speaker 1>on the Platte River, on the Missouri River. I mean

0:47:18.560 --> 0:47:22.399
<v Speaker 1>it was a remarkable kind of way to and what

0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:24.799
<v Speaker 1>you realized out of it is, well, this is a

0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:29.759
<v Speaker 1>brand new opportunity to do something completely different from what

0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.480
<v Speaker 1>has prevailed and the rest of the United States. And

0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:35.520
<v Speaker 1>so we ended up with, you know, with a more

0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:40.239
<v Speaker 1>George Perkins marsh kind of plan. But I think Powell's

0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:43.800
<v Speaker 1>input into it was really critical, and that of course,

0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:46.560
<v Speaker 1>as you said at the outset, this is all a

0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:49.600
<v Speaker 1>very different plan than what the founders had in mind,

0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:52.440
<v Speaker 1>where they thought that we were just going to privatize

0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:56.240
<v Speaker 1>all the pieces of land that we got from wars,

0:47:56.400 --> 0:48:00.960
<v Speaker 1>from annexation, from treaties with native people. We were just

0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:04.680
<v Speaker 1>going to privatize it all and turn it over to settlement. Instead,

0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:06.920
<v Speaker 1>we ended up with something very different. Yeah, and.

0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Use the word plan a couple times there, but I

0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:14.320
<v Speaker 2>think One of the more interesting aspects of this story

0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:21.160
<v Speaker 2>is how sort of piecemeal and fitfully developed our public

0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:26.120
<v Speaker 2>lands system is. You know, it's like you look at

0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:28.440
<v Speaker 2>it and aggregate and you're like, God, this is the

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>foresight to have all this together. But really, you know,

0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:36.560
<v Speaker 2>you're reading along and these people aren't thinking more than

0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:40.960
<v Speaker 2>five or ten years ahead of themselves in terms of institutionally,

0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:43.560
<v Speaker 2>how does this work and legally how does this work?

0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:46.359
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, I wonder if you could speak

0:48:46.400 --> 0:48:50.000
<v Speaker 2>to that, Like the Park Service isn't established till nineteen sixteen,

0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:54.279
<v Speaker 2>but obviously Yellowstone goes, yeah, predates that by you know,

0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:55.520
<v Speaker 2>forty five years or so.

0:48:55.640 --> 0:48:56.440
<v Speaker 3>Forty years or so.

0:48:57.400 --> 0:48:59.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean that's so. One of the things you

0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:02.399
<v Speaker 1>have to recognize about the public lands is that they

0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:05.160
<v Speaker 1>constitute a lot of different kinds of parcels. I mean,

0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:08.440
<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about in the George Perkins Marsh Angle

0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:12.080
<v Speaker 1>is what becomes the National Forest, which are in the

0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:15.920
<v Speaker 1>mountains of the West and are designed to protect stream

0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:19.160
<v Speaker 1>flow and water. In the beginning, and as you mentioned,

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:21.960
<v Speaker 1>it's a piecemeal way of doing it. We start with

0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:27.759
<v Speaker 1>thirteen million acres in about a dozen forest reserves, as

0:49:27.800 --> 0:49:33.120
<v Speaker 1>their first call under the Benjamin Harrison administration, and then

0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:36.800
<v Speaker 1>we run the number up to about thirty four million

0:49:36.920 --> 0:49:39.840
<v Speaker 1>before the turn of the century. And then Teddy Roosevelt

0:49:39.840 --> 0:49:43.760
<v Speaker 1>comes in, of course, and he just dramatically expands that system.

0:49:44.080 --> 0:49:47.359
<v Speaker 1>But that's just one version, and that becomes kind of,

0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:52.040
<v Speaker 1>in a way, the poster public lands, because the national

0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:56.440
<v Speaker 1>forests are managed for multiple uses. As Gifford Pinchot, that

0:49:56.560 --> 0:49:59.600
<v Speaker 1>forester comes in and develops the idea of multiple use,

0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:02.640
<v Speaker 1>we're going to used the national forests for We're going

0:50:02.719 --> 0:50:04.759
<v Speaker 1>to log some and we're going to use We're going

0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:07.920
<v Speaker 1>to have regulated grazing, and we're going to have a

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:11.600
<v Speaker 1>variety of different uses. Of course, wildlife, habitat and recreation

0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:16.160
<v Speaker 1>become the ones that are really important for the modern West.

0:50:16.960 --> 0:50:20.719
<v Speaker 1>But that's just one form of public lands. Because you

0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:24.480
<v Speaker 1>have the national parks, which had existed before, we end

0:50:24.560 --> 0:50:29.640
<v Speaker 1>up with a National Park Act and a National Park system.

0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:34.120
<v Speaker 1>You have in nineteen oh six, the Antiquities Act produces

0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:38.800
<v Speaker 1>what's called the opportunity for the President by presidential edict

0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:44.680
<v Speaker 1>to create national monuments, and the National Monument system, which

0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:47.960
<v Speaker 1>is managed by the Park Service, ultimately is going to

0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:52.040
<v Speaker 1>be another one of these dramatic pieces of public lands

0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:55.440
<v Speaker 1>in the West out of the dust Bowl from the

0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.480
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirties, when a lot of the homesteads end up

0:50:58.520 --> 0:51:02.880
<v Speaker 1>being bought back from homesteaders as failures by the federal government,

0:51:03.200 --> 0:51:05.040
<v Speaker 1>you get a kind of public lands out on the

0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:08.279
<v Speaker 1>plains called the National Grasslands. And then, of course when

0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:10.919
<v Speaker 1>you get to the nineteen thirties, and we've determined after

0:51:10.960 --> 0:51:14.040
<v Speaker 1>the dust bowl has hit that it's really a kind

0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:17.000
<v Speaker 1>of a crime and a tragedy to allow people to

0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:20.040
<v Speaker 1>continue to try to settle some of these really arid

0:51:20.120 --> 0:51:23.920
<v Speaker 1>planes and desert regions of the West. During the Franklin

0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt administration, we end home setting there's still two hundred

0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:32.839
<v Speaker 1>and forty five million acres of public domain left, and

0:51:32.960 --> 0:51:37.720
<v Speaker 1>that land ultimately ends up as Bureau of Land Management tracks.

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:41.520
<v Speaker 1>So it's a bunch of obviously there are a bunch

0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:46.360
<v Speaker 1>of different kinds of public lands in that mix, but

0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the whole of it ends up. As I was writing

0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:54.200
<v Speaker 1>this particular script, and I don't think this had ever

0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:56.800
<v Speaker 1>occurred to me before, but it did when I was

0:51:56.840 --> 0:51:58.440
<v Speaker 1>writing this script, and I think it's one of the

0:51:58.520 --> 0:52:02.840
<v Speaker 1>last lines I use in the script itself. It seems

0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:07.239
<v Speaker 1>to me that the existence of the public lands in

0:52:07.280 --> 0:52:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the West is as important, maybe more important, than the

0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:16.640
<v Speaker 1>existence of a frontier history that sort of defines what

0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:21.880
<v Speaker 1>the West is. One is obviously more nineteenth century phenomenon,

0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:25.680
<v Speaker 1>the other twenty first and more modernist kind of phenomenon.

0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:28.320
<v Speaker 1>But I think the public lands may be more important

0:52:28.560 --> 0:52:30.400
<v Speaker 1>for the West than even the frontier.

0:52:30.840 --> 0:52:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there's also, as you mentioned earlier, there's the

0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Texas story where it has a very different history, and

0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:42.360
<v Speaker 2>then if we look east across the Mississippi, there's a

0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:46.759
<v Speaker 2>very different story there. But in the West we think

0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of public lands as these places that were left behind,

0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:53.520
<v Speaker 2>whereas in the East they had to sort of, after

0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the fact assemble national forests. Yes, and you have the

0:52:57.000 --> 0:53:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Weeks Act, and it's a very deliberate the model of

0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:07.640
<v Speaker 2>construction that had to be sort of invented to reconstitute

0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:10.239
<v Speaker 2>what once was. Yeah, that's exactly right.

0:53:10.239 --> 0:53:12.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the Weeks Act of nineteen ten basically takes

0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:15.920
<v Speaker 1>the idea of the public lands in the West and

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:19.840
<v Speaker 1>applies them when possible to the east, particularly the mountains

0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:24.279
<v Speaker 1>of the East. In this case, it's the kind of

0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:27.920
<v Speaker 1>phenomenon where you're taking lands that had usually been ruined

0:53:28.000 --> 0:53:31.520
<v Speaker 1>by timber companies and had been cut over, and the

0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:36.240
<v Speaker 1>government will then acquire those lands and create national forests

0:53:36.239 --> 0:53:38.680
<v Speaker 1>around them. So that's how we get the national forests,

0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:44.200
<v Speaker 1>for example, up and down the Appalachian Crest, the Shenandoah

0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:49.440
<v Speaker 1>into upstate New York, obviously in the Adirondacks, along with

0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:51.880
<v Speaker 1>the State Park and the Aarandacks. And then there of

0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:57.399
<v Speaker 1>course are some parks that because the Park Service did

0:53:57.440 --> 0:54:01.960
<v Speaker 1>not have an acquisition budget creating these national parks and

0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:06.240
<v Speaker 1>national monuments out of free public domain land. Park Service

0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:09.680
<v Speaker 1>didn't have a budget to acquire lands that had already

0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:13.880
<v Speaker 1>been sold to somebody. What you got in parts of

0:54:13.920 --> 0:54:17.520
<v Speaker 1>the East, and this is what I told the story

0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:22.440
<v Speaker 1>of in Texas, in West Texas that was a failure

0:54:22.719 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>to do is the public got behind the idea of

0:54:28.239 --> 0:54:32.440
<v Speaker 1>producing the money to buy up lands to create Akkadian

0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:38.359
<v Speaker 1>National Park in Maine, Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Shenandoah

0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:43.600
<v Speaker 1>in West Texas, though we had this wonderful opportunity to

0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:49.200
<v Speaker 1>take a landscape that was western in its psychology, frontier

0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:53.040
<v Speaker 1>in its history. I mean to be sure, in Texas.

0:54:53.400 --> 0:54:55.439
<v Speaker 1>All the Indians had been driven out, so you didn't

0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:59.239
<v Speaker 1>have that opportunity for a modern West. But there was

0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:02.840
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity for creating a big public lands on the

0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:07.840
<v Speaker 1>high plains of West Texas, but it didn't happen. And

0:55:07.880 --> 0:55:12.400
<v Speaker 1>it's an interesting kind of miss to me in American history.

0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:15.640
<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't I can't speak to how the

0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:19.480
<v Speaker 1>people of the southern high Plains feel about that miss,

0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:22.279
<v Speaker 1>if they even know about it or remember it. And

0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:24.560
<v Speaker 1>I suspect a lot of people don't even know about it.

0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:29.000
<v Speaker 1>But when I was living there, I mean, I thought

0:55:29.000 --> 0:55:31.719
<v Speaker 1>it was one of the great historical misses that had

0:55:31.760 --> 0:55:36.520
<v Speaker 1>ever taken place in that particular world. Yeah.

0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:39.400
<v Speaker 3>And I think.

0:55:41.239 --> 0:55:43.160
<v Speaker 2>We've talked about how if you look at the public

0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:47.400
<v Speaker 2>lands as they exist now, it's almost like this perfect system.

0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:52.720
<v Speaker 2>It's hard not to celebrate it. But it is controversial,

0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:57.480
<v Speaker 2>and it has always been controversial. Yeah, And it's a

0:55:57.560 --> 0:56:02.920
<v Speaker 2>product of power struggle between competing interests, and so I think,

0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:06.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's another aspect of the story that you

0:56:06.760 --> 0:56:09.319
<v Speaker 2>touch on at points, and I think the Texas case

0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:13.440
<v Speaker 2>brings it up again. It's like Roosevelt had his critics,

0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:17.160
<v Speaker 2>just as today we have the Mike Leaves of the

0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:20.040
<v Speaker 2>world and those who don't see value in the public lands.

0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:21.040
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I.

0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:23.560
<v Speaker 3>Wonder if you can speak to how conflict has shaped

0:56:23.600 --> 0:56:24.200
<v Speaker 3>this story.

0:56:24.520 --> 0:56:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, from the very beginning, as you mentioned Randal, public

0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:37.319
<v Speaker 1>lands were controversial. I mean, conservatives in the time of

0:56:37.440 --> 0:56:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Teddy Roosevelt called the creation of new national forests pink

0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:48.960
<v Speaker 1>tea socialism, and their idea was you had and I

0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:52.120
<v Speaker 1>think Texas actually when George Bush was President of the

0:56:52.200 --> 0:56:55.680
<v Speaker 1>United States, Texas and George Bush used this term, we

0:56:55.760 --> 0:57:00.080
<v Speaker 1>believe in an ownership society, and that, of course, this

0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:04.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of the ultimate capitalist's idea is everything is owned

0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:07.960
<v Speaker 1>by individuals, and the idea of a kind of a

0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:12.839
<v Speaker 1>communal shared resource is foreign to that particular ideology. So

0:57:13.200 --> 0:57:16.160
<v Speaker 1>from the very beginning, there was a constituency of people

0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:19.920
<v Speaker 1>who thought creating public lands for the public to have

0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:24.160
<v Speaker 1>access to this is just not right. So there's been

0:57:24.200 --> 0:57:26.320
<v Speaker 1>a battle over that for a very long time. I

0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:29.320
<v Speaker 1>mean this so called sage brush rebellions. I didn't talk

0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:33.320
<v Speaker 1>about that in this particular episode, but from the nineteen

0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:36.440
<v Speaker 1>twenties through the nineteen fifties, and in fact even as

0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:39.160
<v Speaker 1>late as the nineteen eighties, we have had these kind

0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:44.200
<v Speaker 1>of many revolts on the part of some people in

0:57:44.240 --> 0:57:48.280
<v Speaker 1>the West who want the public lands, as they often say,

0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:51.920
<v Speaker 1>returned to the states. And of course, the problem with that,

0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:54.680
<v Speaker 1>for one thing, is in the language, the public lands

0:57:54.720 --> 0:57:57.360
<v Speaker 1>never belonged to the states to start with. The states

0:57:57.400 --> 0:58:01.800
<v Speaker 1>were created out of those lands. But so those lands

0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:05.280
<v Speaker 1>had always been federal from the beginning. But there's always

0:58:05.280 --> 0:58:08.040
<v Speaker 1>been controversy around it. And of course, in the instance

0:58:08.080 --> 0:58:11.160
<v Speaker 1>here in the last six or eight months, as I

0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:14.720
<v Speaker 1>describe at the end of this episode, and in the

0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Big Beautiful Bill of last spring, Mike Lee of Utah

0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:25.440
<v Speaker 1>wanted to start disassembling the public lands in states like Utah.

0:58:25.600 --> 0:58:27.920
<v Speaker 1>And I mean I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Now we have something like thirty three million acres of

0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:36.120
<v Speaker 1>public lands in New Mexico. Mike Lee's plan wanted to

0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:40.880
<v Speaker 1>privatize fourteen million acres of that like forty percent of

0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.720
<v Speaker 1>the public lands in New Mexico. And so one of

0:58:43.800 --> 0:58:46.160
<v Speaker 1>the things that I mentioned at the end of this

0:58:46.200 --> 0:58:50.919
<v Speaker 1>particular script and certainly provided some images of as well

0:58:50.960 --> 0:58:55.440
<v Speaker 1>as when the Western governors met in Santa Fe in June,

0:58:56.160 --> 0:59:01.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there was a gigantic street protest on behalf

0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:05.400
<v Speaker 1>of saving the public lands and retaining them, of which

0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:08.400
<v Speaker 1>my wife Sarah and I were certainly in the midst

0:59:08.440 --> 0:59:12.360
<v Speaker 1>of which lasted literally all day long and drowned out

0:59:12.440 --> 0:59:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the governor's conference. In fact, they had to call off

0:59:15.520 --> 0:59:18.120
<v Speaker 1>most of the afternoon because they couldn't hear inside the

0:59:18.120 --> 0:59:22.600
<v Speaker 1>hotel where they were. But that particular protest, and it's

0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:24.840
<v Speaker 1>one of the things that struck me about it looking

0:59:24.920 --> 0:59:27.680
<v Speaker 1>at the signs, looking at the people, it had no

0:59:28.040 --> 0:59:31.880
<v Speaker 1>political kind of definition. There were people from the left,

0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:34.840
<v Speaker 1>there were people from the right. There were signs that

0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:40.720
<v Speaker 1>said tree huggers and rednecks. Unite everybody from every side

0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:44.040
<v Speaker 1>because we have grown up with the public lands and

0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:48.240
<v Speaker 1>we know what it's like to have this wonderful access

0:59:48.240 --> 0:59:50.840
<v Speaker 1>to the world. Everybody from every side who lives in

0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:53.880
<v Speaker 1>the West did not want the public lands dissolved.

0:59:54.120 --> 0:59:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's I mean, I think that gets to

0:59:57.320 --> 0:59:59.960
<v Speaker 2>another point you made. It's that they're not some abs

1:00:00.120 --> 1:00:02.520
<v Speaker 2>tracked thing. It's part of daily life.

1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely.

1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:07.320
<v Speaker 2>It's like everybody wants, you know, cheaper food, and everybody

1:00:07.400 --> 1:00:08.520
<v Speaker 2>wants bamba clans.

1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:09.680
<v Speaker 3>You don't they're not.

1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:12.160
<v Speaker 2>You might disagree on how to get there, or how

1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:14.760
<v Speaker 2>they should be managed or what what, you know, whatever

1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:15.760
<v Speaker 2>the disagreement might be.

1:00:15.880 --> 1:00:19.160
<v Speaker 3>But in the West, it's just it's part of life.

1:00:19.560 --> 1:00:22.160
<v Speaker 1>It's part of life and uh and we love it

1:00:22.440 --> 1:00:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and uh, as I said, if you grow up somewhere

1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:27.800
<v Speaker 1>else and you come to the West and realize what

1:00:27.920 --> 1:00:29.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of access you have to the world, it's like

1:00:29.800 --> 1:00:30.880
<v Speaker 1>you've died and gone to heaven.

1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:33.640
<v Speaker 3>Well, couldn't end it at a better spot than that.