WEBVTT - Interview Only w/Paul Glastris - Why America’s Colleges Are FAILING Their Students 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.800 So joining me now is somebody for many of us 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.360 of a certain age in Washington, is that I would 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.720 deem an institution. It's Paul Glasters, the editor in chief 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:18.320 of the Washington Monthly. Many of us count the Washington 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.040 Monthly as one of the first magazines that published us. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:26.239 That would be me. So when I started seeing could 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.400 I do this? Could I write long form after all 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.440 of my sort of wire copy years at the National 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.479 Journal and doing the hotline. And Paul was an extraordinarily 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.400 generous editor and a great mentor to a lot of 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.360 writers and reporters around Washington. So this is a real 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.680 treat for me. Paul, It's good to see you, Chuck. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:46.559 What a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. And I 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.160 remember that story well by John Kerry. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:54.480 I think, yes, yes it was, And so I have 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.480 you on because you did something that I love and 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.520 it's something, frankly that I remember. The Obama administer wanted 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.800 to make a bigger deal out of which was how 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.880 can we create a list of best colleges for bang 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.960 for your buck? Essentially, you know what's going to provide 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.440 you the education that you need without making you have 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.000 to go into debt for the rest of your life 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.360 or to do blood oaths to people that maybe you 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:24.600 don't want to give blood oaths too, because you want 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.280 to get into this Ivy League university, that Ivy League university. 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.440 I will note the irony that you once worked at 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.520 US News and now you have a competing list. But 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.360 this is and look where I want to talk about 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.480 the future of journalism and and sort of and where 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.200 that goes to. But talk to me about the decision 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.600 to do this list and for the Washington Monthly, and 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.680 how would you describe it and what what what motivated 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:53.240 you to do it? 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.800 Well, you're right that that I used to work at 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.840 US News and the U S News College rankings paid 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.880 my mortgage, all of us Right, there was always a 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:11.400 kind of undercurrent of concern about the adequacy of the numbers. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:17.919 And when my friend Jim Fallows became the editor, he 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:25.960 commissioned internal study by a very reputable organization that found 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.440 that the use of their metrics, I think the quote 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:34.640 was something like made no logical or methodological sense. And 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.480 when he reported this to the owner, Mort Zuckerman of 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:43.160 the US News, and this was the major revenue driver 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.560 of the publication, Jim was shortly escorted out the door. 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.360 And it was not too long after that I quit 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.640 when Jim was fired. And it was a couple of 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:01.040 years later that, miraculously who knows that in study made 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.920 its way into the Washington Monthly and we did a 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.320 couple of deep dive investigative pieces about US News and 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:15.680 I determined the idea of ranking colleges is fine, right, often, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.359 how dare you rank colleges? Nobody can compare us? Well, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.600 you know, we ranked football teams, we ranked students, we 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:27.480 can rank colleges. But that basically US News does it 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.360 in a kind of a horrific way. And I'm going 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:36.080 to simplify their metrics, but it's basically this. They reward 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:40.760 colleges in their metrics for three things. Number one, exclusivity. 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.680 How few students do you let in? It's sort of 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.720 the idea that, you know, college is like a country 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:56.480 club lectures instead of golf and velvet rope. Yeah, and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.520 you know, which is kind of wacky when you think 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:04.520 about it. If you few restaurants. They don't count country clubs, right, 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.480 They say, the best restaurant in the city is this 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.760 country club. Well, I can't get into that country club. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.840 Why are you telling me this, it's kind of useless 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.720 information to anybody who isn't you know, at the very 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.440 upper level of the SAT range, and you know the 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.640 way that thing works out. It's mostly people from affluent, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.880 wealthy families who go to the best high schools, who 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.080 have years of prep. Those are the ones again into 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.640 the IVY League. So for ninety percent of Americans, they 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.839 don't even consider those schools. They're not for them, right. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.359 Exclusivity is how US News And there's about a dozen 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.560 other rankings out there, and they all, almost all of 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.839 them do the same thing. They say, who do you 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.640 How many people can you say no to? That must 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.600 be you're good. The second thing they reward is spending 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.240 is wealth. How much money do we spend on our students? 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.120 Which if you're only mostly letting in wealthy students, you've 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.120 got a lot of money, right, so you can spend money. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.000 And then the third is reputation. US News does this 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.560 survey of college leaders and they ask you what do 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.919 you think of that other college, as if that leader 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.120 knows anything about what's going on in the classroom one 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.800 thousand miles away. But it's sort of like, you know, 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.000 high school who are the cool kids. Everybody else the 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.200 cool kids are. So the cool kids are the cool 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.080 kids because everybody say they're the cool kids. We said, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.920 these are really terrible metrics. They're not useful for most students, 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.960 and they're very bad for the country. Right. They drive inequality, 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:41.800 they drive snobbery, they drive expense. They make college more expensive. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.400 Every college president and system wants their college to go 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.080 hire on the US News list. And so they, wellt's 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.479 throw some more money at it. Let's tell you know, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.720 our constituct our students. No, you can't get in. Let's 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.920 deny people at education. It's crazy. So we said, all right. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.839 I actually hired the woman who had done the study 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.560 right for Jim Follows, and I said, help me design 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.359 a different set of rankings. And so we said, what 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:15.800 is it that the average person, not the most affluent people, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.640 not people who went to Harvard, but the average person 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.840 wants out of their investment in higher education. And when 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.760 I say investment, I don't just mean tuition dollars, I 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.600 mean your tax dollars. Government at every level, Chuck spends 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.800 half a trillion dollars a year on higher ed. That 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.800 is seventeen hundred dollars out of pocket for the average taxpayer. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.320 Right, whether you go, whether they go to college or not, 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:46.400 they have contributed, right, they've contributed dollars to the college 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.320 is providing some value for the country and for ourselves specifically. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.839 So what is that value? And so we came up 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.080 with three alternative metrics. Number one, what you alluded to 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.480 best bang for your buck upward mobility? Does a college 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:07.360 recruit and graduate students of modest means? Right, working class students, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:08.640 middle class students. 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.520 Boards, students, first gen basically first gen college? 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.520 Right? Does it recruit and graduate students of modest means 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.880 with degrees that don't cost you much, don't load them 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.400 down with debt, and that means something in the market 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.120 such that they earn middle class or better incomes. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.160 They've moved up the latter, they're making more money than 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:30.720 their parents exactly. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:37.960 Number two research, Do colleges create the scholarship and scholars 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:46.360 that drive new economic growth, solutions to global problems, you know, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:51.320 cures for diseases, et cetera. And number three what we 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:56.120 call service. Open up the mission statement of just about 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.120 any college, and there's going to be a sentence in 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.880 there that's saying point of this university is to create, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.360 is to educate young people to take their place as 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.160 engaged members of their democracy. So we're the only ranking 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.440 that holds schools to account for their own mission statement 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.240 in that regard. And so a school gets extra points 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:22.360 in our ranking if they have a robust ROTC program 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.240 serving in the military, if they students go on into 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.400 the Peace Corps, if they are friendly to people financially 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:35.120 who serve in America Corps. If their voter registration numbers 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.360 are high and they do what they need to do 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:42.440 to make voting easier for their students. If they use 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.120 some of their work study money to provide community service 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.320 opportunities rather than just you know, free free labor for 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.679 the college, that sort of thing. And so when you 0:08:53.720 --> 0:09:00.800 put those three things together, you get an entirely different ranking. 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.720 All the other rankings, it's all the top thirty or 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.440 all the colleges that are always there, right, they're almost 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.040 never changed, harvardt Stanford, maybe a couple of stories. 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.520 They freak out if they lose a notch er two. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.040 I mean, you know, you hear about it. I mean, 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.040 you know, I think Georgetown got all freaked out that 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.560 they went from twenty five to twenty seven. Yeah, they're like, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.000 oh my god, you know this guy's falling. No, this 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:25.800 is huge for these colleges. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:30.480 And again, so you go to the top twenty or thirty, 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.120 and they're all schools most people can't get into, right, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:39.760 they're all country clubs and look elite schools. They do 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.000 a good job. I wound up, you know, transferring to 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.880 one and got an elite degree after going to state school. 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.400 More power to it. If you can get in, you'll 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.199 make a lot of money, you'll have a great network. 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.520 But most people can't, right, that's the point. So yeah, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.800 so the top schools in US News this year barely 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:06.040 budged the top thirty schools in Washington Monthly. Half of 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:10.719 the worried these elite schools. Well, and you know, Duke and. 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.160 Say your Rice is your Vanderbilts, They're on there. I 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.000 was looking at the South, but then you got a 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.559 school like that's number I was just looking, right, the 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.160 number one school in the South for best bang for 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.000 your buck, and the number one liberal arts college is Brea. 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.520 Yeah, it's the number one school among fourteen hundred colleges 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:29.120 that we rank. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.000 That's I mean, nobody would have had that where's Brea 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:33.439 in the US news rank? Oh? 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.160 I mean, you know, if you off to the side 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.080 and some side ranking, they probably give it, you know, 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.640 some lip service. But we're the only ranking in the 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:46.000 country that says Berea University in Barrack in breat Kentucky. Berea, 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:46.640 by the way. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.920 I mean, excuse me, yeah, I know we're both is the. 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.959 Number one school and and why because they do an 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:59.080 astonishing job of providing a grant education to students of 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.720 modest means. Most of their students percent of their students, 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.600 by the way, are on pelgrams. That's the federal Where 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.360 is where is Brion? Bria is in Borea and it's 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.080 I don't know, seventy five miles from Lexington, if that 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:14.240 puts you in the. 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:15.880 So it's in that side of Kentucky. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.160 Yeah, Lexington, and almost all their students are from the Appalachia. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.920 Colige was founded in eighteen fifty five by abolitionists, and 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.000 it was the first college south of the Mason Dixon 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.840 line to educate both blacks and whites and women. And 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.840 for more than one hundred years it's had the aspiration 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.079 to charge no tuition to anybody, and they don't quite 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.040 get there, but the vast majority of the students pay 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.760 little to nothing and they do that. How do they? 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:43.880 Yeah, how do they do it? 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.120 It's fascinating. I did. We would do a podcast and 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.679 I interviewed the president Cynthia Nixon is her name. 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.280 Number one, that's not that Cynthia Nixon, Yeah. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.920 A different they think that's her name. A very bright woman, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.240 and she explained it to us Number one, very what 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.360 really designated work college meaning all of their students get 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.440 work study money, so and then some of that money 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.920 goes to pay their tuition and some of it goes 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:18.280 in their pocket. Number two h And really the biggest 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.400 reason is for one hundred years they've been building a 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:28.679 a endowment through small donations that's now like a billion 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:29.600 and a half dollars. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:31.760 Well, they just are really smart investors. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.760 Smart investors. And if you start a hundred years ago 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.560 and you keep going magical compound interest and instead of 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.960 like using it to build sports stadiums or endow you know. 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.040 Or beautiful dorms, right, that becomes the arms race at 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.680 these universities for dorms that look like they look like 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.199 midtown Manhattan apartments exactly. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.599 It all goes or not. You know, the bulk of 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.720 it goes to keeping costs down for students and then 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.960 the students. It's it's, it's, it's it's a selective ish university. 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.160 Not everybody gets in. It's not like Yale, but it's 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:12.160 an academically rigorous institution. When you go look on the 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.640 student reports, it's like, wow, I'm working my tail off here. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:23.000 But when students leave, they earn five thousand dollars more 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.600 per year than their peers, their demographic peers who will 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.000 go to colin So you know, that's just our idea 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.840 of a great school. And if you look at like 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.880 just the top five the most the highest ranking elite 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:43.559 school is Princeton at number five. I think Harvard's down 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.079 at twenty six or something. But above Princeton are three 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:52.640 campuses of the California State University system. The number two 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.600 Fresno State, which I'm going to guess most of your 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.480 listeners and viewers don't know much about it, maybe have 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.840 never heard of, but it shows up on a Saturday 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:03.880 night in college football. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:05.720 It does bully, you do see that. 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.480 But they are a fabulous institution. They charge very little. 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.520 The students come from that Central Valley of California, many 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.760 of them from very poor backgrounds. The president of the 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.320 university grew up working on a farm in the area. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.800 The students when they graduate tend to stay in the area. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.560 They don't jet off to New York and work for 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.200 a you know, hedge fund, and some of them go 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:37.280 back to work for agricultural companies where as children they 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:43.200 pick crops. That is upward mobility, my friend. Right, And 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.800 so you know, these are the colleges that are really 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.960 the ones we should all elevate and try to support, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.360 and unfortunately they are. They are underinvested in. They don't 0:14:54.880 --> 0:15:00.280 get anywhere near the money that schools that you know, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.120 catered to the wealthier student and it's it's kind of 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:05.520 a crime. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:10.000 You know. It's interesting if there's a pattern, loose pattern 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.560 that I've noticed a lot of colleges, meaning these are 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.680 schools that don't have graduate programs right in many cases 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.440 they are just focused on the four year I assume 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.640 that's not a coincidence and how your rankings work that 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.120 that those that these these colleges that are just focused 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.600 on there are not worried about because many many universities 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.680 it is the graduate programs that pay the bills. Right, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.120 you know, in some ways undergrad is a loss leader, 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.280 and so is there. Do you get a sense that 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:46.800 those without the graduate schools, without the the the postgrad 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.920 you know, whether it's med schools, law schools, et cetera, 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.440 that it it sort of concentrates the administration on running 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.280 a better four year undergrad system. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.440 I think there's a lot to that. You know, there 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.920 are tiers of universities that are classified by an institution 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:12.080 called the Carnegie H Classification for Institutions for Higher Education, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.680 and we used to follow them kind of rigorously. Because 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.680 US News did funny you should mention this year they 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.000 really switched up their rankings and that and that allowed 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.440 us to kind of free ourselves from how we used 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.040 to do it. And one of the things we did, 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.520 uh afropop what you said, is we pulled all the 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:38.360 research data out of our main rankings and just made 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:43.640 a best Colleges for research because that's where the grad 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.720 programs are really really are and those are those are 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.720 the universities, and there's maybe a couple hundred of them 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:58.520 that have very big robust med schools, law schools, engineering schools, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:16:59.280 and so forth. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:01.880 You look at your list, and it is the big 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.480 These are the school the big schools. It's Michigan, it's Stanford, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.520 it's Berkeley, it's pur New Texas A and M one 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.880 through five, all of them huge research institutions. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.600 Right, So we said, let's just put those guys in 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:16.679 their own category. 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.879 By the way, Texas A and M over. Mit, you 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.840 know how much some Texans would love seeing that. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:26.560 They do. They they brag on it, and you know, 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.679 not to get too political here, but these are the 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:35.600 schools that the Trump administration is really going after cuts 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.560 to research grants. One of the things we found in 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:44.600 doing this exercise, and it's in the story, is that 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.840 sure he's gone after the big research universities in blue 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.880 cities and states, but the ones that are also being hit. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.840 There are a lot of big research universities in red 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:03.240 states and in rural areas, and they're getting hurt. And 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.840 and it's like a lot of Trump administration policy, it 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:12.280 is aimed at his enemies, but it winds up damaging 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:12.760 his vote. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:14.880 There's a whole Paul I can tell you this. There's 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.520 a whole bunch of lobbyists making money right now off 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.919 of universities who've hired them to say, hey, get us 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.480 off this target list. We're not what I don't think 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.600 he mean. And and what you find out, I happen 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.679 to know of one very public university that that's having 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.320 some success doing that because they got as you just said, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.520 they lost some stuff that was aimed at punishing a 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:41.080 Northeastern school and it ended up punishing the southern big 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.399 state school. And that is it wasn't the intent. And 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.440 so like just like the farmers, he's trying, they're trying 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.480 to create carve outs now you know, which of course 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.520 just got gum up the whole works. 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.520 Yeah, yeah, no, And it's and it's a it's a 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.680 politics truck that we've never seen in this country. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:05.480 As the weaponizing college research. Right, Like that's another. 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:11.960 Level specific targeting of your political enemies on funding that 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:17.080 was never intended to be anything but given out on merit, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:17.920 right given out. 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.080 And it's and not even really political stuff. I mean, 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.160 you know, whether it's health funding, whether it's research. I mean, 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.240 this is stuff that is arguably for the masses. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:34.920 Yeah yeah, so so so I hope that people take 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.320 away from our rankings. I mean, I think our rankings 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:44.479 resonate at this moment, because there's so much fury at 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.480 higher end, and the fury is in all directions, from 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.479 all quarters. And you know, a lot of it is 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.560 political and partisan, and I think, you know, maybe have 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.280 has grains of truth in it, but is also you know, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:05.159 kind of hypocritical. People. I'm furious about elite universities and 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.400 college in general, and absolutely desperate to get their kids 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:14.840 in there. But part of the fury is is real. 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.880 Is it costs a lot of money now to send 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.159 a kid to college or send yourself to college. I 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:26.640 mean real inflation adjusted spending for two year schools has 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.600 nearly doubled since nineteen ninety four, and more than doubled 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.960 for four year schools. And you know, people are saying, 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:39.159 you know, is college still worth it? Well, you go 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.359 to the Washington Mother, you see hundreds of colleges that 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.439 are really very much worth it. But in general, you know, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.520 at Toyota is a great buy at thirty thousand dollars, yeah, 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.040 roll or whatever. At one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.760 it's not worth it. Right, So until we can get 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:59.119 the cost of college down and prove the quality, because 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.480 a lot of colleges are not delivering quality. You're going 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.960 to have this this fury, this this distrust. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.800 There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.960 there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.800 law firm. 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How do they hire their professors? 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:36.200 Do they demand professors that do research and prioritize their 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:41.600 own work or do they hire teachers real coaches? When 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:43.399 I mean a teacher, I mean like a coach you 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:48.520 know who becomes that mentor you know? I mean, look, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:54.200 I teach part time. I'm I'm on use USC's campus 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.639 right now, and I did an event last night and 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:00.280 three of my former students showed up and it it 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.760 brought a ton of joy to me. Right It is 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:05.199 that there is a joy you get out of it 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.680 when you feel like you've you've been able to pass 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.399 something on, you've been able to inspire a student. And 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.760 not all people are motivated by that or have that. 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.120 Is there a way to measure what kind of because 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.200 you could you look at a resume of somebody, well, 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:22.679 what a great resume, but you have no idea if 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:24.600 there are any good at being a teacher and they 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:26.280 know how to be a coach, you know, that sort 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:30.760 of mindset, you know, is that researchable? Is that rankable? 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:35.800 So we've really struggled with this, and there are there 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:39.520 is some data that you can use to measure the 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:45.080 quality of student engagement, quality of teaching, but we are 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:51.280 sufficiently doubtful of it to not We've written stories about it. 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:53.520 We've you know, is this what sort of the student 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:55.000 reaction to professors? Is it? 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:59.560 Using those rate of professors professor? There's something called the 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:06.920 National Survey of Student Engagement. You know, they ask students 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:10.480 and you know, faculty, how many times during the course 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:12.840 of the week have you met with a professor outside 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:16.960 the classroom? Right? How many ten page or more papers did. 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:17.680 You have to write? 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:24.879 They try to measure the degree to which actual evidence 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:30.240 based practices that we know lead to learning are happening 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:34.399 on the ground. Not bad, but it's not of a 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.360 quality that we've been felt comfortable to put in our rankings. 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:41.440 But you're asking the right question anecdotally, Like I went 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.680 to the University of Missouri my freshman year. It's good, 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:50.440