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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: Hey listener, in this episode, we talk about domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: cancer and disposing of a body. But you also get

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Speaker 2: to hear our club really come to life, and you

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Speaker 2: know that you've really been waiting for that. And of course,

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Speaker 2: just a warning, a little more of my swearing. If

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Speaker 2: you do listen and are impacted by any of our themes,

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Speaker 2: you can reach out to No More, a domestic violence

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Speaker 2: charity we've partnered with. They have lots of great resources

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Speaker 2: to help you or your loved ones. You can find

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Speaker 2: them at no More dot org. That's no mor dot org.

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Speaker 2: Remember Stephanie Youngblood, the fiancee who met Bob at the

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Speaker 2: New Year's Eve party back in nineteen eighty nine. She's

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Speaker 2: the only regular member of our club that you haven't

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Speaker 2: heard from directly. The sad reason is that Stephanie died

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Speaker 2: from cancer in twenty twenty two, just before this podcast

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Speaker 2: went into production. Stephanie was a core member of our

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Speaker 2: club and she dated about the longest of all of us,

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Speaker 2: around three years. But I never really knew what led

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Speaker 2: to their breakup until Stephanie first joined us at the Mayflower,

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Speaker 2: And I think it's time you found out too.

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Speaker 3: I thought that he was weird.

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Speaker 2: This is Stephanie's best friend, Gina. She saw it all

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Speaker 2: go down.

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Speaker 3: Bob had to one up you, no matter what it was,

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Speaker 3: no matter what you said, if you ordered a certain

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Speaker 3: bottle of wine, there was another one that was better.

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Speaker 3: He was smarter, he was better educated, no matter what

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Speaker 3: it was.

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Speaker 2: At first, Stephanie gave Gina the same report everyone gives

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Speaker 2: up Bob. Magical dates, flying above the desert, great food, skiing,

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Speaker 2: so smart, YadA, YadA YadA.

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Speaker 3: I mean, who wouldn't want that on your repertoire. But

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Speaker 3: the way he acted didn't fit any of that to me.

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Speaker 2: There was one particular trip with Bob that raised alarm

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Speaker 2: bells for Gina. They had gone skied in Argentina with

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Speaker 2: a group of doctors and Gina started to feel sick.

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Speaker 3: So I called her room. I said, Stephanie, I'm not

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Speaker 3: feeling really good. My stomach hurts. She said, come by

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Speaker 3: the room. So I knocked on her door and he

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Speaker 3: was there and had like a little mini hissy fit,

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Speaker 3: like who's this intruder? I felt that I was intruding,

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Speaker 3: and I was a very bad moment that I should

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Speaker 3: not have been there. And he picked up his clothes

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Speaker 3: or something, and kind of stalked and stormed out of

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Speaker 3: the room. And I remember, I said, Stephanie, I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have come now. I mean, you know, you should have

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Speaker 3: told me. She goes, no, that's fine, that's just Bob.

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Speaker 2: Being this left a bad taste in Gina's mouth. She

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Speaker 2: had previously been married to a guy just like that,

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Speaker 2: and she knows firsthand what those temper tantrums can develop into.

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Speaker 2: So she told Stephanie that Bob reminded her of her ex,

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Speaker 2: who'd fly off the handle at anything, who got so

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Speaker 2: irate during a dinner that he chucked a pepper grinder

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Speaker 2: into the swimming pool, who once locked her in the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: and who eventually tried to throw her off a boat.

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Speaker 2: But Stephanie did not want to hear Gina's warnings. Instead,

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Speaker 2: she kept dating Bob, just like how I kept dating him,

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Speaker 2: like Gail did, and like Gina did with her husband.

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Speaker 2: As time went on, Stephanie saw Bob's outburst get worse,

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Speaker 2: like the time Stephanie, Bob, and a friend were having

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Speaker 2: dinner on a boat. Stephanie had requested a bottle of

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Speaker 2: red wine, but when the waiter brought it over, they

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Speaker 2: accidentally sprayed the wine all over the time table. It

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Speaker 2: infuriated Bob. He turned to Stephanie with these intense laser

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Speaker 2: eyes and started raging on her like it was all

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Speaker 2: her fault. She was terrified.

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Speaker 3: Everybody was like, there's something not quite right with this dude.

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Speaker 2: Following his outburst, Stephanie couldn't look at Bob in the

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Speaker 2: same way. He'd always been a little controlling, but the

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Speaker 2: way he exploded, the way he looked at her, it

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Speaker 2: unlocked a new fear. Ultimately, though, she wanted to fix him,

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Speaker 2: so she demanded that they go to see a couple's therapists.

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Speaker 2: But after just one session, the therapist spoke with Stephanie

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Speaker 2: privately and told her that there were significant problems with

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Speaker 2: their relationship and warned her that her life might be

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Speaker 2: in danger.

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Speaker 3: Remind you of anything, Stephanie said, There's just something wrong

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Speaker 3: with him. Had to control everything that they did, what

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Speaker 3: they ate, where they went, and she said, I got

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Speaker 3: to get away from it. I got to figure out

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Speaker 3: how to get away from it.

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Speaker 2: From that point on, Stephanie started to build a plan

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Speaker 2: to leave Bob. One day, when she was leaving town

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Speaker 2: for a seminar, she told Bob it was over.

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Speaker 3: And I think it really came down to I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be gone. I want you out by the time

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Speaker 3: I get back. That was how she told me. I

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Speaker 3: said good.

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Speaker 2: And that's how Stephanie earned her seat at the Harriet

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Speaker 2: the Spy Club, a club that was half ridiculous girl

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Speaker 2: talk and half camaraderie, a sisterhood, a place for women

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Speaker 2: to get together, drink wine and tear their ex boyfriend

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Speaker 2: to shreds.

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Speaker 3: She was always excited about it. You know, it was fun.

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Speaker 3: They would go have a glass of wine or meat

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Speaker 3: for coffee. They would shoot the discs. I mean, they

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Speaker 3: would talk about all the things they did in compare notes.

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Speaker 3: I think it was good too, because for her, she

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Speaker 3: wasn't the only one.

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Speaker 2: We miss you, Stephanie, and I still can't believe that

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Speaker 2: all of our gossip being became part of a multi

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Speaker 2: state investigation. Wait a minute, you all don't know about

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Speaker 2: that yet. I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm Carol Fisher

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Speaker 2: and from the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio. You're listening

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Speaker 2: to the Girlfriends episode six Women who Like to Gab.

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Speaker 1: When you pick up a cold case, the first thing

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Speaker 1: you do is you redo everything that's been done in

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Speaker 1: the past, no matter how old it is, no matter

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Speaker 1: what's been done, you do it over again.

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Speaker 2: This is Dan Bibb, one of the DA prosecutors assigned

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Speaker 2: to Gaile's cold case.

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Speaker 1: Even if someone who's been spoken to says they don't

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Speaker 1: remember or they don't know, a lot of people lie.

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Speaker 1: And there were many cases I picked up where people

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Speaker 1: were I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and ten fifteen years later they've straightened their acts out

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Speaker 1: and now willing to tell you what happened. It's a rule,

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Speaker 1: you redo everything that's been done in the past, and

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Speaker 1: that's what we did. Who took every report what's called

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Speaker 1: a DD five, it's a Detective division report, and if

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Speaker 1: there was a witness interviewed, we redid that interview.

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Speaker 2: And when Dan says they reinterviewed everyone, he means it.

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Speaker 2: We've seen in the files. There's a lane, Denise, Gail's brother, Steve,

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Speaker 2: the doorman at Gail's apartment, Gail's colleagues, and her fellow students,

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Speaker 2: and they also spoke to the two guys Gail was

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Speaker 2: dating on the side, Anthony Sagalis and Kenneth Feiner.

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Speaker 1: If the husband didn't do it, maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: boyfriends did. Sigallas and Finer couldn't have been more different people.

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Speaker 1: Sigallas a little bit brash, you know, businessman Finer this

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Speaker 1: soft spoken psychologist. Yeah, Finer and Sigallis they weren't killers.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Next, Dan and his partner Steve had to figure

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Speaker 2: out what Bob had been up to over the past

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Speaker 2: ten years, which is when these two poker loving, steak eating,

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Speaker 2: luxury hotel staying prosecutors first touchdown in Sin City. One

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Speaker 2: of the first people they spoke to when they arrived

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight was Scott Behrenoff, Bob's childhood friend

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Speaker 2: from New Jersey, who had convinced Bob to join him

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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: He's like a mahogany tan, like golden curl, nice looking guy.

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Speaker 1: He's got pictures on the wall of him and all

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Speaker 1: these casino owners, you know, and all the casino owners

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Speaker 1: are in his seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 4: The guy says they're eighty years old. They got twenty

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Speaker 4: five year old girlfriends. At these casino openings. You'll see

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Speaker 4: me on one side and the cardiologist on the other.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what, he goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. The cardiologists

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Speaker 1: keep them alive in the neurologist keep them pissing and fucking.

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Speaker 1: And I nearly fell out of my chair it was

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Speaker 1: laughing so hard.

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Speaker 2: Once the medical bro talk was over, Scott started spouting

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Speaker 2: loads of stuff about his old buddy Bob and the

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Speaker 2: things they used to do back in New York, like

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Speaker 2: the time Bob dropped in at Scott's mom's house after

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Speaker 2: his nephew's party. The day the Gale went missing.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Brenbaum told doctor Barnolf, Gail's missing, what should I do?

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Speaker 4: And that's when Berenbaum reporter and missing.

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Speaker 2: The next day they spoke to Ernie Sussman too, a

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Speaker 2: local urologist who Bob befriended after he gave him flying lessons.

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Speaker 1: I had no.

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Speaker 5: Idea he was married.

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Speaker 4: Wow, that's amazing that never came up.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I wouldn't ask now. If guys volunteer stuff, great,

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Speaker 5: I mean, unless I'm asked, I'm not going to start

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Speaker 5: talking somebody's ear off about my past and my relationships.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, I think it's a guy thing. I mean,

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Speaker 5: most guys don't start gabbing now. They gab too much

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Speaker 5: about their past, and I'm a little suspect, and that's

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Speaker 5: sure I want to be around them anyway.

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Speaker 2: The guys just didn't really know much about Bob or Gail.

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Speaker 2: They didn't ask.

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Speaker 1: It was like the guys, it's like, yeah, I remember

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Speaker 1: he told me his wife disappeared one day. He never

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Speaker 1: saw her again. So you're a guy, you're not going

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Speaker 1: to drill down and say, Jess, Bob with how happened?

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Speaker 1: You know, he's all right, Well, he probably walk away

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Speaker 1: thinking did he kill her.

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Speaker 2: It was becoming clear that if the prosecutors were going

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Speaker 2: to get anywhere with the Vegas interviews, they needed to

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Speaker 2: come to the people who knew Bob best in this town,

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Speaker 2: the women who did like to gab, the girlfriends blessed

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Speaker 2: Dan and Steve. They really had no idea how much

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Speaker 2: we had been preparing for this. The first member of

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Speaker 2: the club to get the call with Stephanie Youngblood. She

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Speaker 2: invited Dan and Steve straight to her office.

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Speaker 4: She was the chiropractic who said that his engagement ring

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Speaker 4: was the gift that keeps on giving. I think he

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Speaker 4: was engaged to like three or four different women in

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Speaker 4: Las Vegas. He dated the entire Jewish professional community.

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Speaker 2: What they really wanted to know was what Bob had

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Speaker 2: said about Gail.

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Speaker 4: She was aware that he was previously married, that his

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Speaker 4: wife had disappeared, and I know that he had given

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Speaker 4: to her an account as to what he thought had

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Speaker 4: happened to Gail.

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Speaker 2: In fact, when Stephanie first met Bob, he told her

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Speaker 2: that he had never been married before. But then Stephanie

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Speaker 2: started noticing that some male was addressed to Bob and

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Speaker 2: Gail Berenbaum. She also found a trunk with luggage tags

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Speaker 2: that had Gail's name on it, the same trunk I saw.

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Speaker 2: Stephanie shared all of this with her friend Gina.

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Speaker 3: She said he didn't have any good explanations for it,

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Speaker 3: other than his wife had gone singing, and she was

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Speaker 3: wondering why he still had papers and bills and things

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Speaker 3: like that. They're in a Las Vegas house when he

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Speaker 3: came from New York years before.

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Speaker 2: When Stephanie repeatedly asked Bob who Gail was, he welled

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Speaker 2: up and said it was hard to explain. Then he

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Speaker 2: told her his story that she went to Central Park

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Speaker 2: and never came back. He said it was upsetting me

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Speaker 2: because during the investigation he found out she had a

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Speaker 2: drug problem and that she was having extramarital affairs. These

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Speaker 2: are the details Dan and Steve were looking for.

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Speaker 1: It was the common theme the argument walking out, going

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Speaker 1: to the party again. There were a number of lies

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Speaker 1: and embellishments, but it was also the fact that he

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Speaker 1: had this horrendous temper and fly off the handle at

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Speaker 1: the drop of a hat, and almost nothing.

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Speaker 2: After Stephanie's interview, she called me and said she'd give

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Speaker 2: him my number out to Dan and Steve and they

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Speaker 2: want to interview me too. She said, they're opening this

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Speaker 2: case back up. They really want Bob and they believe

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Speaker 2: that we all independently have enough information to help put

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Speaker 2: him away. Let me be honest here. I was kind

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Speaker 2: of on the fence about meeting them. It was fun

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Speaker 2: gossiping with the girls at the Mayflower restaurant, but this

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Speaker 2: all sounded a bit too serious. Thinking back, I just

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Speaker 2: wanted this to go away and not have to accept

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Speaker 2: the fact that I might have dated someone capable of

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Speaker 2: murdering his wife. So I said I would only meet

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Speaker 2: with them if it could be at Stephanie's office. When

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Speaker 2: we met, I told them all about my relationship with Bob,

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Speaker 2: the glass breaking story and that wild siphless accusation. The

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Speaker 2: one they really loved was the moment when I said,

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Speaker 2: what did you do murder your wife?

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Speaker 4: He doesn't respond, doesn't what are you talking about, Carolyn?

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Speaker 4: He just drops his head. And that comes in as

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Speaker 4: an omission by silence, where it's something that a reasonable

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Speaker 4: person would be expected to respond to and deny or whatever.

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Speaker 4: A reasonable person just wouldn't sit there once confronted with

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Speaker 4: an accusation that you had committed a murder.

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Speaker 1: What stuck out to me was that the women all

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Speaker 1: remembered the conversations and details what he said, what he did,

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Speaker 1: what she said, what she did. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was a function of there but for the grace of

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Speaker 1: God go I.

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Speaker 2: At first these details were just fodder for club gossip,

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Speaker 2: but now they were becoming a murder case. It didn't

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Speaker 2: feel good, especially after the things I'd learned about Bob

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Speaker 2: from the detectives. They told me about his life in

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Speaker 2: North Dakota and Howie was starting over. He had a

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Speaker 2: new medical practice and was part of a community. They

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Speaker 2: said his new wife, Janet was pregnant and the baby

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Speaker 2: was due in a few months. Could that guy really

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Speaker 2: have murdered somebody, and if he hadn't, were we about

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Speaker 2: to ruin his life. Back in New York, over the

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Speaker 2: summer of nineteen ninety eight, Dan and Steve kept going

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Speaker 2: reapproaching potential witnesses who had refused to be interviewed back

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Speaker 2: in the eighties. There was one woman in particular that

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Speaker 2: they were desperate to talk to, Roberta Karnowsky, a medical

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Speaker 2: student who Bob supervised at my Monodes Medical Center.

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Speaker 1: We were kind of aware that Roberta was a love interest,

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Speaker 1: and we were aware that she lived with him, but

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Speaker 1: she was uncooperative at the time, back in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: five eighty six, she refused to be interviewed.

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Speaker 2: But when Dan and Steve approached her all these years later,

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Speaker 2: Roberta agreed to talk. Steve flew out to meet her

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Speaker 2: in her new home of Charleston, North Carolina.

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Speaker 4: I met with her and her lawyer. Her lawyer felt

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Speaker 4: comfortable with me, and it just was a great interview.

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Speaker 2: Roberta tells Steve that Bob first asked her out in

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Speaker 2: August of nineteen eighty five, just a month after Gail

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Speaker 2: went missing. About three weeks later, and after just a

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Speaker 2: couple of dates, he asked her to move into his apartment,

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Speaker 2: which technically is still Gail's upon apartment. In fact, Roberta

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Speaker 2: was already living there when Elaine came to collect Gaile's belongings,

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Speaker 2: the ones Bob put out in trash bags. Roberta also

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Speaker 2: told Steve about this one night at the apartment that

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Speaker 2: really stood out to her.

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Speaker 1: Roberta tells us that in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 1: there's a telephone call saying that there's a woman in

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Speaker 1: the poor authority, I believe it, which is a bus

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Speaker 1: terminal in midtown Manhattan, and would he come down and

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Speaker 1: take a look at her and see if it's her?

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Speaker 1: And Bob is resistant.

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Speaker 2: Bob says, I doubt it's Gail and asks if he

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Speaker 2: has to come right away as it's the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night.

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Speaker 4: Roberta Karnowski, hearing this, is ready to move out of

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Speaker 4: the apartment. He says, how should I get out of

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Speaker 4: here now? And he tells her not, don't worry, it's

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Speaker 4: not her.

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Speaker 2: Bob did eventually go, but he dragged his feet.

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Speaker 1: That was a little evidence that hurt him quite a bit,

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Speaker 1: you know, because he knew, of course, it wasn't her

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Speaker 1: because he knew where she was.

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Speaker 2: From that point on, Roberta was suspicious of Bob, and she,

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Speaker 2: just like us, started adding up the details. She thought

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Speaker 2: about the answering machine messages.

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Speaker 5: Gail's mom would leave.

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Speaker 2: Bob accusing him of murdering her daughter, and she remembered

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Speaker 2: how much he loved to fly. She started to formulate

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Speaker 2: a theory that Bob had killed Gail, rented a plane

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Speaker 2: and thrown her into the ocean.

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Speaker 1: And it was after an argument that Roberta and Bob

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Speaker 1: had at dinner where she actually accused him of killing

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Speaker 1: Gail and he remained silent.

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Speaker 2: Roberta told her friend Sharon Alongi about what was going

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Speaker 2: on and her plane theory. Sharon had an idea to

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Speaker 2: check Bob's movements on the day of Gail's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: When Bob was at work, they said, let's look at

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Speaker 1: his platelog for that day, and they went and they

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Speaker 1: saw that it was altered, and it was altered to

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Speaker 1: show that on that date he had not flown, but

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Speaker 1: he had flown on another date.

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Speaker 4: A savvy twelve year old could see that it had

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Speaker 4: been altered from the seventh to the eighth.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge breakthrough for the case. But it's not

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Speaker 2: the first time that the DA had learned that Bob

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Speaker 2: most likely flew that day. Back in the original DA

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Speaker 2: investigation in the eighties, one of the investigators called in

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Speaker 2: at Caldwell Airport, the same place Gail rescued her cat amilia,

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Speaker 2: to ask some questions.

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Speaker 1: And they walked in and they talked to the owners

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Speaker 1: of mcdaney and Aviation, and they said, actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: doctor Barnbeult used to fly out of here all the time.

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Speaker 1: They said, well, do you have any records of him

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Speaker 1: flying here? He says, yes, do you have any records

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Speaker 1: of him flying here in July of nineteen eighty five?

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Speaker 1: And they said yes, and sure enough, he flew on

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Speaker 1: July seventh, nineteen eighty five, the day his wife disappeared.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Bierenbaum, in talking to both missing person detectives and

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Speaker 4: detectives from the precinct, her family, or his friends, he

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Speaker 4: never mentioned that he had rented that plane that afternoon,

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Speaker 4: and we had records that he did. There was no

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Speaker 4: way that he could deny it.

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Speaker 1: He lied to the police and to everyone else when

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Speaker 1: he related his activities. After he says his wife walked

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Speaker 1: out of the apartment sometime around noon that Sunday. It

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Speaker 1: was a lie of comission because he would say he

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Speaker 1: was either waiting for his wife to return, or he

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Speaker 1: was on his way to his sister's place in Montclair,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, just two or three towns over from where

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Speaker 1: Cole Airport is, for his nephew's birthday party, or he

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Speaker 1: was already at the party when he was actually in

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Speaker 1: an airplane for almost two hours, and he could have

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Speaker 1: flown over one hundred and fifty miles easily. So I

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Speaker 1: mean the importance of the flight is not only because

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Speaker 1: he lied about it, because it gave him the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to dispose of a body where no one was ever

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Speaker 1: going to find it.

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Speaker 2: Based on all of the interviews and this breakthrough proof

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Speaker 2: of the flight, the DA land robertas theary, they believe

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Speaker 2: Bob killed Gail at some point between ten thirty am

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Speaker 2: to three pm on July seventh, that Bob put her

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Speaker 2: body into a duffel bag and smuggled her out of

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Speaker 2: the back door of his building to the car, evading

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Speaker 2: cameras and the doormen. At four point thirty pm, he

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Speaker 2: drove right onto the tarmac at Caldwell airport, hired a

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Speaker 2: plane and flew for a two hour round trip, allowing

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Speaker 2: him to travel one hundred and seventy miles out over

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Speaker 2: the Atlantic. He dropped her body out of the plane,

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Speaker 2: flew back, and headed to his nephew's party just a

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Speaker 2: few miles away. There's even a photo of him smiling

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Speaker 2: with his nephew and the birthday cake. The only problem

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Speaker 2: is the prosecutors needed hard evidence. All these stories were

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Speaker 2: not enough. They had to prove that, beyond any reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 2: Bob must have done it, And for Dan and Steve

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Speaker 2: there was one reasonable doubt that They still had to

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Speaker 2: address the torso. When the body washed up on the

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Speaker 2: Staten Island shore back in nineteen eighty nine, the chief

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Speaker 2: Medical Examiner didn't have the DNA testing capabilities that they

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Speaker 2: do now. Instead, the body was identified as Gail's by

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Speaker 2: comparing a radiology report of the torso and some X

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Speaker 2: rays of Gail's former cocas injury. To Dan and Steve,

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Speaker 2: it felt like a risk. Could you really identify a

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Speaker 2: body solely by comparing their spines. It's a sort of

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Speaker 2: detail that the defense could cling on to to discredit

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Speaker 2: their argument. DNA testing had improved in the intervening years,

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Speaker 2: and they wanted to be sure, but it comes at

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Speaker 2: a risk. If the body is definitely Gaels, then they're

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Speaker 2: protecting themselves from the jurors doubt. But if it's not hers,

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Speaker 2: then they're back to square one. A case with no

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Speaker 2: body and only circumstantial evidence. That's a hard case to win.

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Speaker 2: And on top of all that, the torso was already buried.

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Speaker 2: So Dan called Gail's sister, Elaine.

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Speaker 6: They then asked me if they could exhume the body.

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Speaker 1: So we are and we will put everything that we

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Speaker 1: have into this, no holds barred, bring out all the

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Speaker 1: guns blazing, but I can't guarantee an outcome.

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Speaker 6: I thought about it for a while. We had no

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Speaker 6: idea whether this was ever going to be prosecuted, whether

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Speaker 6: it was going to be a successful prosecution.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Elaine consented to the exhumation, and the tent was

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Speaker 2: erected over Gale's gravesite in Mountain Zion Cemetery in Queen's

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Speaker 2: A few months later, Elaine was asked to come into

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Speaker 2: the city for a meeting at the Medical Examiner's office.

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Speaker 2: When she arrived, she was directed into a huge conference

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Speaker 2: room where Dan Steve, two lawyers, and the chief medical examiner,

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Speaker 2: Charles Hirsch were all waiting for her.

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Speaker 6: And they said to me, the torso is not Gail.

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Speaker 6: And after a string of curses, I said to them,

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Speaker 6: you have ripped the shred of closure that I have

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Speaker 6: away from me. You better indict him, and you better

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Speaker 6: convict him.

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Speaker 1: Next time.

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Speaker 6: On The Girlfriends, my sister call she said.

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Speaker 5: Turn on the news.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes you want to keep things out of the press,

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Speaker 4: but this case was front page for a while.

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Speaker 1: I got a phone call from a woman and she

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Speaker 1: actually says to me, I slept with this guy right

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Speaker 1: after his wife disappeared.

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Speaker 7: What if he's not guilty, will he come after us

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Speaker 7: for slander? And if he is guilty, will he come

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Speaker 7: after us after us?

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Speaker 2: The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for Ourheart Radio. For

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Speaker 2: more from Novel, visit novel dot Audio. The series is

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Speaker 2: hosted by me Carol Fisher and produced by Anna Sinfield.

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00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: Our assistant producer is Julian Manyu, Gera Patten, and our

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00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: researcher is Madeline Parr. The editor is Veronica Simmons. Max

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Speaker 2: O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Valeria Rocca.

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Speaker 2: Production management from Sharie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design,

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Speaker 2: mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen and Nicholas Alexander. Music

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Speaker 2: supervision by Anna Sinfield. Original music composed by Luisa Gerstein.

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Speaker 2: Glory development by Isaac Fisher. Willard Foxton is creative director

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Speaker 2: of Development. Special thanks to Sean Glenn, David Waters, might

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Speaker 2: Lely Rowl, Katrina Norvell, David Wasserman, and Beth Anne Mcaluso.

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Speaker 2: We did reach out to Bob and his legal team

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Speaker 2: to ask if he'd like to comment on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: but we never heard back.

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Speaker 1: Novel