WEBVTT - From Bachelor to Betrayed | BONUS 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.760 Hi, Love Trapped listeners. It's Stephanie. It's been a whirlwind 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.120 of a week. I just got back from south By 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.680 Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:09.560 It was an. 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.600 Unbelievable experience where I was able to meet some of 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.680 my favorite podcast hosts and even got to present an 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.079 award at the iHeart Podcast Awards. I also got to 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.960 do a sit down interview live from Austin with Clayton 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.080 and my executive producer for Love Trapped, and the host 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:29.160 of the hit true crime podcast Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. Also 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.400 fun fact about Betrayal. On Sunday, March twenty ninth, at 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:37.199 ten pm Eastern, Betrayal is premiering on ABC Network, one 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.280 of the first podcasts to become a primetime TV series. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.920 I'm so excited for all my colleagues associated with this show, 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.640 so please be sure to check it out and don't 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.200 forget new episodes of Love Trapped come out every Thursday. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.240 Thank you so much for your support. Now let's get 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.959 into it. Here's my sit down conversation with Clayton and 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.440 Andrea about how Love Trapped came to be. I hope 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:03.120 you enjoy it. So I've been with Glass podcasts since 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.360 June of last year. And this is my first time 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.360 meeting my executive producer for Love Trapped in person, Andrea Gunning. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.000 She is the host and producer of Betrayal, also another 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.800 iHeart and Glass podcast. And we are at south By 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:20.160 Southwest in Austin, Texas with iHeart and we've got Clayton 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:21.880 Eckard here and we're going to talk a little bit 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.000 about the making of Love Trapped. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.800 Yeah, it's great. It's such a good show. Guys, you 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.399 really knocked it out of the park. 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.640 Well, thank you obviously for providing us with a platform 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.240 to do so. And you're you're quite an expert obviously 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.920 and stories like this, I'm just curious. First question I 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:45.040 want to start off with is does this impact you, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.760 like mentally to go through these things and you know what, 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:51.800 how do you protect your own mental health? 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.480 It's a really good question that not a lot of 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.440 people take the time to ask, So thank you for asking. 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:04.320 That they do impact me. I deal with the different 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:10.639 ways I try to really protect my physical health to 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:11.560 keep my energy up. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:12.680 I think I worked. 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.160 One of my first podcasts that I ever produced was 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.440 Confronting Columbine and immediately after I went and. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.800 Bought a dog. I was like, I need I need. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.359 Like emotional support, like you need love and a safe space. 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.240 But I've been doing it for so long now that 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.760 i can kind of compartmentalize, but it does take a toll. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.480 Like this past season of the Trial, season five is 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.640 really near and dear to my heart because it's about 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:41.360 a really heavy topic that I've experienced in an adjacent way. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.520 So I have a really great team. Stephanie's on it. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.480 You're incredible, And I think it's just like relying on 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:50.839 the team around you to pick up where you need 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.320 to and take the time, go for walks, and just 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.480 manage the material where you can. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.359 That's all I can really say. I work out, I 0:02:58.400 --> 0:02:59.120 lift a lot of weights. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:00.800 That also helps, definitely helps. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.880 Yeah, there's so many sensitive topics in Love Trapped, and 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.040 I think one of the things that I've realized in 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.240 my research is that a lot of the people and 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.720 the support system comes from people that have experienced something 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.320 like Laura claims she has experienced. So I know that 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.839 you and I have had conversations about that offline where 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.680 it's like, these are really sensitive topics, how are we 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.240 going to take care of these when we tell them 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.000 to the audience, and also how are we going to 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.000 take care of ourselves? So that was a really great question. 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.720 Clayton, thank you, and I also yeah, I want to know. 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.480 I mean why hop on this objective is super grateful 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.440 to have you as a part of the team. I mean, 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.720 but what was the draugs? I mean, you guys originally 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.040 came to me and asked if this was something that 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:51.280 I'd be comfortable sharing, and certainly your reputation and what 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.080 I had seen, I'm like, okay, you know this is 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.680 somebody that understands they share stories of similar nature. So 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.600 for me, I'm in good hands with expertise. But you know, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.360 like what what what drew you guys to reaching out? 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.320 So I can't speak for We have another company we 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.440 work with. It's cry Baby, Danny and Love. It's a 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.320 little inside baseball, But they were the ones that originally 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.080 reached out to you, and I think that they just 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.520 saw I think Love was googling a Laura Owens for 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.480 something completely generate an. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.120 Artist's completely different. So crazy how that comes together by 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.279 the way that he was looking for a completely separate 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:28.520 Laura Owens, right. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.680 And so Lev works in development and he's constantly finding stories, 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.600 and so he was online looking for something completely different 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:40.640 stuffled upon your Laura Owens. And I think through that 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.919 just once you get a sense of the story, you 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.479 do a deep dive. And I think in episode one 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:48.920 you even say to Stephanie, like, be careful because once 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.680 you start like you can't you it's the. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.840 Rabbit hole that you never returned from. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.360 I'm there right now, right, I'm in it absolutely. And 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.120 so when Danny and Lov brought this to Glass pot Pod, 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.040 which is a division of Glass Entertainment Group, my colleague 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.200 Ben and I were just, Oh, this feels really in 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.120 line with a lot of the stuff that we do, 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:09.640 specifically betrayal. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.240 I don't like saying that, but my brand is like betrayal, lies, 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.599 and deceit, and your story has a lot of that. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:22.720 But it's not just about the lies. It's about the 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:26.800 aftermath and the emotional experience when you've been your your 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.320 life has been hijacked by somebody and has altered your reality. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.400 And I think that Glass is a really good job 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.440 of taking a complicated story and allowing the audience to 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.840 emotionally relate to it. So, yeah, they're the headlines are 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.000 the obvious, like you know, the roller coaster of story 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.240 points that your story has. But what really intrigued me 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:53.479 was the emotional access that people could relate to from you. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:55.760 That's what's important to me in storytelling. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.680 And how did it come about? You know, like Love 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.360 finds this podcast or this idea for a podcast or 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.479 a documentary and then what happens from there? Because I 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.320 signed on for this project after it had already been 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:10.520 sold to iHeart. 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.320 Yeah, I mean you worked on it sooner than I did. 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.960 Actually, Clayton, you guys did a reel for television, and 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.239 so glass we simultaneously shop the audio rights and then 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.200 the nonscript did right, and so Danny and Love were 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.880 creating a real and then Ben and I saw it. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.560 And were like, what is this story? Oh my god? 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.200 We got to send this to our partners and like 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.560 shop it around. But the first, you know place we 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.760 took it was iHeart and they just get it, like 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.880 they understand everything about what betrayal brings to the table 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.599 in terms of complicated storytelling and knows that we can 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.120 deliver on how complicated your story is and so and 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:54.279 they got it right away. 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.120 Yeah, yeah, And I think what's so interesting too, is 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.240 that I had actually interviewed for a job with you 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.120 in twenty twenty. Yes, you did, Oh my gosh, and 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.839 my husband got the job over me. We accidentally applied 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.080 for the same job and then I took another job 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.040 that I really really loved and got laid off. And 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.800 so when this came across my desk, when it was 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.080 brought to me, like, I think the question for you 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.760 is why me for this story? 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:21.600 Well, I think I should tell Clayton that we were 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.360 she There was two finalists and it was Stephanie's husband 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.920 and Stephanie and we just it was more of a 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.440 male producing role, and so that's why her husband got 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:31.800 the job. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.680 But ever since we had interviewed you for that, it 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.200 wasn't the right fit. It was more of a male POV. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.880 So but ever since then we were like, what's Stephanie doing? 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.440 And your husband's like she's busy, Like leave her alone. 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.600 And so when this came up came around, I knew 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.640 that you had interest in Bachelor Nation because you had 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.920 interviewed for Jason Tarctic's show, right, So, like I. 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.560 Did an interview, I was like in in process of 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.360 like trying to really work on that day show. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:02.040 Was the story that I got. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.360 I was like, oh, so she's clearly in Bachelor Nation. Yeah, 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.520 maybe she'll have interest in working on your story. But 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.640 I just through our conversations, I knew that you could. 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.600 Really dive into source material. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:19.400 There is so much material to read and immerse yourself in, 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.520 like legally, the legal documents thousands and thousands of pages. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.360 And this is this is a high stake story. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.920 We're dealing with someone that's really complicated, very litigious, so 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.000 it takes someone that's going to be really careful. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.559 And I just felt that you could do it. I 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:39.160 felt like you were the right person for the job. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.280 Thank you. And I have to say that I've learned 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.640 so much from you from a storytelling perspective, and I 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.120 couldn't have done this podcast without the Glass Podcast team. 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.000 I mean, I'm hosting it and I'm the producer, but 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.520 the people behind the scenes really audio editors, story editors, producers, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.440 like every single person you hear in the credits puts 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.280 such a good touch on making this the final product. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:03.839 The one thing I do want to ask Clayton, though, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.880 is we had that first conversation and you're like, you 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.000 know you're going to be in over your head with this. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.440 When was the moment for you that you decided like, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:14.880 I'm going to trust Stephanie with this because you were 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:16.920 you were a little guarded at first, Oh were you? 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.079 I was? Yeah. I actually wasn't enthusiat all about doing 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.440 a podcast. I wanted it to be a documentary or 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:29.200 be nothing, just because I wasn't really aware of how 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.079 the podcast would actually turn out. And so I had 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.560 them basically kind of proved to me that. I said, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.440 send me material, what have you done in the past, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.280 let me like actually see a proof of concept. And 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.880 when I listened to one of the podcasts, within like 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.360 a minute, I realized, I'm like, this is not your 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.240 typical podcast. This is a storytelling way of doing it. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:56.800 It's really intriguing and you know what, this actually could work, 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.880 And so I then became very excited by that. But 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.559 I'm still like, hey, look, we're pushing this as a documentary, right, 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.040 like that's the first and foremost. It's just this podcast 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.720 will be on the back end of it. Funny how 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.800 that works out, thankfully. I just you know, said let's 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.760 to do it. But then when I met Stephanie, Yeah, 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.920 I mean, look she's very sweet, she's nice, like she's 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.080 she I mean, I've loved it a death and she's 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.080 come on a team. But I thought, look, you don't 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.280 know what you're getting into, Like there's just so much here, 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.760 and unless you are willing to like fully immerse yourself, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.480 you're going to miss out on details. You're not going 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.240 to tell it correctly, and this is going to potentially 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.880 put me at risk of like having a story told 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.679 in an incorrect manner, which you've already had, which I've 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.559 already had. You know, I've been very sensitive to that 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.680 with previous shows where I'm not really happy with how 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.959 things are portrayed because to me, they're not fully real 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.559 to what I experienced. And so this was another situation 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.520 where I'm like, look, if I'm going to be vulnerable 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.360 again and allow producers once again to tell my life story, 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.400 I'm not doing this where it gets told incorrectly or 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.240 altered in a way to just make it appear sexier 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:12.400 at the expense of me. That was obviously the big hesitancy. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.480 So what really sold me on you was the amount 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.600 of time and the genuine I could just feel your 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.400 energy from the jump. I'm like, she's really like she 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.200 cares first and foremost. This isn't about her just nabbing 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.160 a new story. This is really about her looking me 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:31.679 in the eyes and being like, I really want to 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.000 share your story and tell this, and I will put 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.839 as much effort in as I can to make this 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.280 in a way that you know that tells your story 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:41.720 in the way that you want it to be told. 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.160 And it was a good synergistic relationship because I told 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.160 her I wanted to be told in the real way. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.920 I don't want this to be like everyone pat Clayton 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.120 on the back and you call them a superstar. I said, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.840 I want this to be shared as it is, like 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.040 I'm not on a pedestal, like I'm just I'm in 0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.839 the middle somewhere. I'm not good, I'm not bad. I'm 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.320 just in the middle like any other human. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.600 I really respect that, and I think one of our 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:10.480 core values, like last podcasts, is like the beautiful complexity 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.599 that is the human experience. It is not a binary 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:19.920 black and white thing, good and bad choices. There are 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:24.520 gradients of decision making where you know there's accountability and 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.280 culpability on different sides of the street. 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:27.920 And what I love about betrayal. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.160 When I love about your show and just your story 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.760 is you're okay with leaning into your vulnerabilities and the 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.600 choices that you make. And I think that there's an 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:40.920 emotional access there. We talk about that a lot of 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.200 class podcasts about what's emotional access, Like the part of 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.640 me is a part of you. Someone could hear your 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.480 story and say I made a similar decision. I didn't 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.960 meet all our owns, but I kind of walk similar steps. 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.400 And you can only do that by living in that gray, right, like, 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:58.960 and that's the real reality. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.840 It's not like the good and the bad. It's the middle. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.880 Yeah, and for me too. I mean I also, as 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.920 I realized when I decided to make this known to 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.920 a larger audience, that I was receiving a lot of 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.400 back on the backside of things in my DMS, you know, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.760 support from men that were saying, hey, look like, thank 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.640 you so much for speaking up because I'm going through this. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.800 And then I was getting ten, twenty fifteen or fifty 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.839 different messages of people saying that my brother went through this, 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.080 or a friend went through this, or my significant other. 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.960 And you know, I have been grateful because I think 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.240 victims should just be able to tell their story. Whatever 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.520 victims look like, you know, whether your male, female, whatever, 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.040 you know, your skin color doesn't matter. It's like, if 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.520 you're the victim, you're the victim, and everyone deserves to 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.200 have their story be told. So for me, it seemed 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.280 that I was able to, you know, start shining a 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.960 light on hey, Like there's victims of all different shapes 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:05.440 and sizes, and like, we just need to get this 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.080 story out because yeah, I mean it, there's a lot 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.080 of people that don't speak up because they're like, I'm 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.240 not certain how it'll be received, and I hope that. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.160 I mean, what's been awesome about this podcast is I 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.480 think it's it's encouraging a lot of people to speak 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.800 up because the reception is positive. Hey. And I also 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.280 again I'm like, look, don't portray me as perfect. Portray 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.520 me as human, because that's what's relatable and people can go, okay, like, look, 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.000 I don't have to be a perfect human in order 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.120 to be believed. I just have to be real and honest. 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.280 And let's talk about that for a second. In this story, 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.920 the main victims are males, and there's a lot of 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:46.360 collateral damage in Love Trapped, where it's you know, family members, attorneys, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.600 the victims run deep in my opinion on this, but 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.960 the main victims are male. In Betrayal, we hear a 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.560 lot of female victims and a few males. So what 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.640 was it like for you to kind of flip the 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.600 script and executive a story that is kind of different, 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.840 same but different than Betrayal? 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:05.520 It is different. 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:10.120 I mean, we're always looking for male pov because, you know, 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.880 we just have our community is primarily female on Betrayal, 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.120 and the people that come forward who want to share 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.840 their story are mostly women, and so we'll take whenever 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:23.440 we can. If there's a guy that wants to share 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.080 their story, we're like absolutely, because it just helps dismantle shame. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.800 And I think for men in particular, that's the biggest hurdle. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.800 So when they hear other men come out, you know, 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.160 talk about their story, share what they went through, it 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.800 helps another man on the other side of just listening 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.840 and say, Okay, maybe I can talk about it. Maybe 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.680 not on a worldwide, global platform, but I can share 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.760 it with a friend. And so that's why I think 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.400 it's really important for diversity of voices. And I would 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.400 love to have more men on the show and that's 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.880 why I think you are so valued Ball is because 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.120 you're like, it's not often where a man can come 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.280 forward and say, you know, all this happened to me 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.120 because because of shame, I think, and. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.000 The emotional vulnerability of Clayton throughout this entire process has 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.520 been something that I've really admired. Like from the very beginning, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:22.320 you haven't held anything back, whether it's anger, sadness, excitement 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.280 sometimes about what's going on with the case. So I 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.360 just want to tell you thank you for that, because 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.760 that's what's made this story as great as it is. 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.080 Yeah, well, I mean for me, I thought, you know, 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.440 as I reflect upon any time that I share something, 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.560 it's if I'm feeling something, then somebody else, if they 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.280 go through something similar, likely has these wave of emotions. 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.720 And yeah, there's obviously the pressure sometimes that falls on 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.600 my shoulders where I say, hey, it's been three years. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.360 I was it was okay for me to have anger, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.320 you know on year one, but by year three I 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.440 should be able to be okay with it and I 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.880 should be the bigger person. But then I realized, I'm like, 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.200 that's just not how healing occurs. It's not a linear thing. 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.080 You know, you might feel like you're over it and 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.760 then some old feelings come back. And for me, I 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:14.879 feel it's a responsibility to showcase that because I'm not 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.160 trying to come across as a perfect human. I think 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.760 if I did that it would just other people then 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.800 might listen in and go, oh, I guess I'm not 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.680 hanging this correctly. So I'm not going to be able 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.440 to get through this. It's like, no, if I share 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.760 that I'm still having vulnerable moments and I thought I 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:32.880 was past things that I'm not and I'm going back, 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.000 It's like it's you're not really going backwards. This is 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.280 just being human, Like, this is how things naturally progress. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.320 So I've let that go where I'm like, Clayton, you 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.440 don't have to seem like you're now a sudden three 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.720 years later, like you've gotten to this level of maturity. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.639 You know, you can show the raw emotions that still exist. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.560 If they exist, then show them. If they don't exist, 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.240 don't show them. But like, just give whatever it was 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.399 within you, like, put that out there because that's going 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:59.199 to be relatable. It's a lot of people they're going 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.479 to say, Okay, like, look, he still deals with this, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.919 So they'll give themselves grace because they'll say, hey, I'm 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.719 three years into my situation. I still have anger, but 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:09.320 so does he. So this must be normal. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:11.199 And I think it's okay for you to still have 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.880 anger because this story is still ongoing. It's not completely 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:15.600 closed yet. 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.560 I look, I think anger is there's there's certainly like 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.239 I mean, there's a purpose for it. I don't think 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.560 we're supposed to eradicate anger from our lives. I mean, 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.600 it's it's important someone breaks into your house. You want 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:28.480 to have anger kick in, right, You need a quick 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.320 emotion to like go fight back and so and for me, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.879 same thing if somebody harms you, you know, not just 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.119 sometimes turning the other cheek, but sometimes you have to 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.600 fight fire with fire. And that was the realization that 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.680 I quickly picked up on with Laura, was like, it's 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.359 a fire with fire scenario. So I need to allow 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.480 like if she's going to fight with hatred in her heart, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.560 I need to fight with anger in mine, because like 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.360 that's the only way that sometimes you have to get 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:55.639 to that point where it's the only way that you 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.399 can you can battle back and win the battle. So 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.040 it's picking and choosing those times, but I think anger 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.560 has a night of connotation, and I'm trying to show 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.160 people that there's a place for it where it's actually 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:08.520 it's useful. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.200 And Andrea, let me ask you this. With a lot 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.439 of the betrayal stories, there's a conclusion, you know, like 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:21.240 there is a court case that has been adjudicated, and 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.479 how have the victims on betrayal handled when it's finally 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.320 done in the court system and they have to move 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:29.520 on with their lives after that. 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.400 This may not be the answer you want to hear, 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.120 but oftentimes it's a whole new. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:37.679 Experience. 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:43.120 Like there's sometimes a conditional way of thinking when you're in. 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:46.480 Like a trauma mode. 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.240 A lot of times when you're dealing with the criminal 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:54.520 justice system, you're in survival mode and you are living in. 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:55.680 Existing and conditional thinking. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.960 If I just get here to this court date, this hearing, 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.080 I'm just moving forward. I'm putting one foot in front 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.639 of the other. And I totally understand that. And so 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.720 when you get to a sentencing hearing or a plea 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.560 deal and you think it's an ending, you realize that 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:10.520 actually on the other side of it is a whole 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.000 new journey of dealing with whatever that decision is, whatever 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:18.399 the verdict is, whatever the sentencing is, and it's a 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:22.359 whole new wound you've just opened. And so for me 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:27.520 a lot of my storytellers, it's that unpredictable. It's a 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.280 different stage and a whole different set of grief. Like 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.479 you're just existing and dealing with one aspect and then 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.360 you can actually then mourn and grieve the actual thing 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.320 that you experienced on the other side of it. So 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.680 that could I don't know what will happen, but it's 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.119