Speaker 1: Hi, Love Trapped listeners. It's Stephanie. It's been a whirlwind
Speaker 1: of a week. I just got back from south By
Speaker 1: Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas.
Speaker 2: It was an.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable experience where I was able to meet some of
Speaker 1: my favorite podcast hosts and even got to present an
Speaker 1: award at the iHeart Podcast Awards. I also got to
Speaker 1: do a sit down interview live from Austin with Clayton
Speaker 1: and my executive producer for Love Trapped, and the host
Speaker 1: of the hit true crime podcast Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. Also
Speaker 1: fun fact about Betrayal. On Sunday, March twenty ninth, at
Speaker 1: ten pm Eastern, Betrayal is premiering on ABC Network, one
Speaker 1: of the first podcasts to become a primetime TV series.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for all my colleagues associated with this show,
Speaker 1: so please be sure to check it out and don't
Speaker 1: forget new episodes of Love Trapped come out every Thursday.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your support. Now let's get
Speaker 1: into it. Here's my sit down conversation with Clayton and
Speaker 1: Andrea about how Love Trapped came to be. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy it. So I've been with Glass podcasts since
Speaker 1: June of last year. And this is my first time
Speaker 1: meeting my executive producer for Love Trapped in person, Andrea Gunning.
Speaker 1: She is the host and producer of Betrayal, also another
Speaker 1: iHeart and Glass podcast. And we are at south By
Speaker 1: Southwest in Austin, Texas with iHeart and we've got Clayton
Speaker 1: Eckard here and we're going to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about the making of Love Trapped.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great. It's such a good show. Guys, you
Speaker 3: really knocked it out of the park.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you obviously for providing us with a platform
Speaker 4: to do so. And you're you're quite an expert obviously
Speaker 4: and stories like this, I'm just curious. First question I
Speaker 4: want to start off with is does this impact you,
Speaker 4: like mentally to go through these things and you know what,
Speaker 4: how do you protect your own mental health?
Speaker 3: It's a really good question that not a lot of
Speaker 3: people take the time to ask, So thank you for asking.
Speaker 3: That they do impact me. I deal with the different
Speaker 3: ways I try to really protect my physical health to
Speaker 3: keep my energy up.
Speaker 2: I think I worked.
Speaker 3: One of my first podcasts that I ever produced was
Speaker 3: Confronting Columbine and immediately after I went and.
Speaker 2: Bought a dog. I was like, I need I need.
Speaker 3: Like emotional support, like you need love and a safe space.
Speaker 3: But I've been doing it for so long now that
Speaker 3: i can kind of compartmentalize, but it does take a toll.
Speaker 3: Like this past season of the Trial, season five is
Speaker 3: really near and dear to my heart because it's about
Speaker 3: a really heavy topic that I've experienced in an adjacent way.
Speaker 2: So I have a really great team. Stephanie's on it.
Speaker 3: You're incredible, And I think it's just like relying on
Speaker 3: the team around you to pick up where you need
Speaker 3: to and take the time, go for walks, and just
Speaker 3: manage the material where you can.
Speaker 2: That's all I can really say. I work out, I
Speaker 2: lift a lot of weights.
Speaker 4: That also helps, definitely helps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many sensitive topics in Love Trapped, and
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I've realized in
Speaker 1: my research is that a lot of the people and
Speaker 1: the support system comes from people that have experienced something
Speaker 1: like Laura claims she has experienced. So I know that
Speaker 1: you and I have had conversations about that offline where
Speaker 1: it's like, these are really sensitive topics, how are we
Speaker 1: going to take care of these when we tell them
Speaker 1: to the audience, and also how are we going to
Speaker 1: take care of ourselves? So that was a really great question.
Speaker 4: Clayton, thank you, and I also yeah, I want to know.
Speaker 4: I mean why hop on this objective is super grateful
Speaker 4: to have you as a part of the team. I mean,
Speaker 4: but what was the draugs? I mean, you guys originally
Speaker 4: came to me and asked if this was something that
Speaker 4: I'd be comfortable sharing, and certainly your reputation and what
Speaker 4: I had seen, I'm like, okay, you know this is
Speaker 4: somebody that understands they share stories of similar nature. So
Speaker 4: for me, I'm in good hands with expertise. But you know,
Speaker 4: like what what what drew you guys to reaching out?
Speaker 3: So I can't speak for We have another company we
Speaker 3: work with. It's cry Baby, Danny and Love. It's a
Speaker 3: little inside baseball, But they were the ones that originally
Speaker 3: reached out to you, and I think that they just
Speaker 3: saw I think Love was googling a Laura Owens for
Speaker 3: something completely generate an.
Speaker 4: Artist's completely different. So crazy how that comes together by
Speaker 4: the way that he was looking for a completely separate
Speaker 4: Laura Owens, right.
Speaker 3: And so Lev works in development and he's constantly finding stories,
Speaker 3: and so he was online looking for something completely different
Speaker 3: stuffled upon your Laura Owens. And I think through that
Speaker 3: just once you get a sense of the story, you
Speaker 3: do a deep dive. And I think in episode one
Speaker 3: you even say to Stephanie, like, be careful because once
Speaker 3: you start like you can't you it's the.
Speaker 4: Rabbit hole that you never returned from.
Speaker 2: I'm there right now, right, I'm in it absolutely. And
Speaker 2: so when Danny and Lov brought this to Glass pot Pod,
Speaker 2: which is a division of Glass Entertainment Group, my colleague
Speaker 2: Ben and I were just, Oh, this feels really in
Speaker 2: line with a lot of the stuff that we do,
Speaker 2: specifically betrayal.
Speaker 3: I don't like saying that, but my brand is like betrayal, lies,
Speaker 3: and deceit, and your story has a lot of that.
Speaker 3: But it's not just about the lies. It's about the
Speaker 3: aftermath and the emotional experience when you've been your your
Speaker 3: life has been hijacked by somebody and has altered your reality.
Speaker 3: And I think that Glass is a really good job
Speaker 3: of taking a complicated story and allowing the audience to
Speaker 3: emotionally relate to it. So, yeah, they're the headlines are
Speaker 3: the obvious, like you know, the roller coaster of story
Speaker 3: points that your story has. But what really intrigued me
Speaker 3: was the emotional access that people could relate to from you.
Speaker 3: That's what's important to me in storytelling.
Speaker 1: And how did it come about? You know, like Love
Speaker 1: finds this podcast or this idea for a podcast or
Speaker 1: a documentary and then what happens from there? Because I
Speaker 1: signed on for this project after it had already been
Speaker 1: sold to iHeart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you worked on it sooner than I did.
Speaker 3: Actually, Clayton, you guys did a reel for television, and
Speaker 3: so glass we simultaneously shop the audio rights and then
Speaker 3: the nonscript did right, and so Danny and Love were
Speaker 3: creating a real and then Ben and I saw it.
Speaker 2: And were like, what is this story? Oh my god?
Speaker 3: We got to send this to our partners and like
Speaker 3: shop it around. But the first, you know place we
Speaker 3: took it was iHeart and they just get it, like
Speaker 3: they understand everything about what betrayal brings to the table
Speaker 3: in terms of complicated storytelling and knows that we can
Speaker 3: deliver on how complicated your story is and so and
Speaker 3: they got it right away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think what's so interesting too, is
Speaker 1: that I had actually interviewed for a job with you
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. Yes, you did, Oh my gosh, and
Speaker 1: my husband got the job over me. We accidentally applied
Speaker 1: for the same job and then I took another job
Speaker 1: that I really really loved and got laid off. And
Speaker 1: so when this came across my desk, when it was
Speaker 1: brought to me, like, I think the question for you
Speaker 1: is why me for this story?
Speaker 3: Well, I think I should tell Clayton that we were
Speaker 3: she There was two finalists and it was Stephanie's husband
Speaker 3: and Stephanie and we just it was more of a
Speaker 3: male producing role, and so that's why her husband got
Speaker 3: the job.
Speaker 2: But ever since we had interviewed you for that, it
Speaker 2: wasn't the right fit. It was more of a male POV.
Speaker 3: So but ever since then we were like, what's Stephanie doing?
Speaker 3: And your husband's like she's busy, Like leave her alone.
Speaker 3: And so when this came up came around, I knew
Speaker 3: that you had interest in Bachelor Nation because you had
Speaker 3: interviewed for Jason Tarctic's show, right, So, like I.
Speaker 1: Did an interview, I was like in in process of
Speaker 1: like trying to really work on that day show.
Speaker 2: Was the story that I got.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, so she's clearly in Bachelor Nation. Yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe she'll have interest in working on your story. But
Speaker 3: I just through our conversations, I knew that you could.
Speaker 2: Really dive into source material.
Speaker 3: There is so much material to read and immerse yourself in,
Speaker 3: like legally, the legal documents thousands and thousands of pages.
Speaker 2: And this is this is a high stake story.
Speaker 3: We're dealing with someone that's really complicated, very litigious, so
Speaker 3: it takes someone that's going to be really careful.
Speaker 2: And I just felt that you could do it. I
Speaker 2: felt like you were the right person for the job.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And I have to say that I've learned
Speaker 1: so much from you from a storytelling perspective, and I
Speaker 1: couldn't have done this podcast without the Glass Podcast team.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hosting it and I'm the producer, but
Speaker 1: the people behind the scenes really audio editors, story editors, producers,
Speaker 1: like every single person you hear in the credits puts
Speaker 1: such a good touch on making this the final product.
Speaker 1: The one thing I do want to ask Clayton, though,
Speaker 1: is we had that first conversation and you're like, you
Speaker 1: know you're going to be in over your head with this.
Speaker 1: When was the moment for you that you decided like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to trust Stephanie with this because you were
Speaker 1: you were a little guarded at first, Oh were you?
Speaker 4: I was? Yeah. I actually wasn't enthusiat all about doing
Speaker 4: a podcast. I wanted it to be a documentary or
Speaker 4: be nothing, just because I wasn't really aware of how
Speaker 4: the podcast would actually turn out. And so I had
Speaker 4: them basically kind of proved to me that. I said,
Speaker 4: send me material, what have you done in the past,
Speaker 4: let me like actually see a proof of concept. And
Speaker 4: when I listened to one of the podcasts, within like
Speaker 4: a minute, I realized, I'm like, this is not your
Speaker 4: typical podcast. This is a storytelling way of doing it.
Speaker 4: It's really intriguing and you know what, this actually could work,
Speaker 4: And so I then became very excited by that. But
Speaker 4: I'm still like, hey, look, we're pushing this as a documentary, right,
Speaker 4: like that's the first and foremost. It's just this podcast
Speaker 4: will be on the back end of it. Funny how
Speaker 4: that works out, thankfully. I just you know, said let's
Speaker 4: to do it. But then when I met Stephanie, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, look she's very sweet, she's nice, like she's
Speaker 4: she I mean, I've loved it a death and she's
Speaker 4: come on a team. But I thought, look, you don't
Speaker 4: know what you're getting into, Like there's just so much here,
Speaker 4: and unless you are willing to like fully immerse yourself,
Speaker 4: you're going to miss out on details. You're not going
Speaker 4: to tell it correctly, and this is going to potentially
Speaker 4: put me at risk of like having a story told
Speaker 4: in an incorrect manner, which you've already had, which I've
Speaker 4: already had. You know, I've been very sensitive to that
Speaker 4: with previous shows where I'm not really happy with how
Speaker 4: things are portrayed because to me, they're not fully real
Speaker 4: to what I experienced. And so this was another situation
Speaker 4: where I'm like, look, if I'm going to be vulnerable
Speaker 4: again and allow producers once again to tell my life story,
Speaker 4: I'm not doing this where it gets told incorrectly or
Speaker 4: altered in a way to just make it appear sexier
Speaker 4: at the expense of me. That was obviously the big hesitancy.
Speaker 4: So what really sold me on you was the amount
Speaker 4: of time and the genuine I could just feel your
Speaker 4: energy from the jump. I'm like, she's really like she
Speaker 4: cares first and foremost. This isn't about her just nabbing
Speaker 4: a new story. This is really about her looking me
Speaker 4: in the eyes and being like, I really want to
Speaker 4: share your story and tell this, and I will put
Speaker 4: as much effort in as I can to make this
Speaker 4: in a way that you know that tells your story
Speaker 4: in the way that you want it to be told.
Speaker 4: And it was a good synergistic relationship because I told
Speaker 4: her I wanted to be told in the real way.
Speaker 4: I don't want this to be like everyone pat Clayton
Speaker 4: on the back and you call them a superstar. I said,
Speaker 4: I want this to be shared as it is, like
Speaker 4: I'm not on a pedestal, like I'm just I'm in
Speaker 4: the middle somewhere. I'm not good, I'm not bad. I'm
Speaker 4: just in the middle like any other human.
Speaker 3: I really respect that, and I think one of our
Speaker 3: core values, like last podcasts, is like the beautiful complexity
Speaker 3: that is the human experience. It is not a binary
Speaker 3: black and white thing, good and bad choices. There are
Speaker 3: gradients of decision making where you know there's accountability and
Speaker 3: culpability on different sides of the street.
Speaker 2: And what I love about betrayal.
Speaker 3: When I love about your show and just your story
Speaker 3: is you're okay with leaning into your vulnerabilities and the
Speaker 3: choices that you make. And I think that there's an
Speaker 3: emotional access there. We talk about that a lot of
Speaker 3: class podcasts about what's emotional access, Like the part of
Speaker 3: me is a part of you. Someone could hear your
Speaker 3: story and say I made a similar decision. I didn't
Speaker 3: meet all our owns, but I kind of walk similar steps.
Speaker 3: And you can only do that by living in that gray, right, like,
Speaker 3: and that's the real reality.
Speaker 2: It's not like the good and the bad. It's the middle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and for me too. I mean I also, as
Speaker 4: I realized when I decided to make this known to
Speaker 4: a larger audience, that I was receiving a lot of
Speaker 4: back on the backside of things in my DMS, you know,
Speaker 4: support from men that were saying, hey, look like, thank
Speaker 4: you so much for speaking up because I'm going through this.
Speaker 4: And then I was getting ten, twenty fifteen or fifty
Speaker 4: different messages of people saying that my brother went through this,
Speaker 4: or a friend went through this, or my significant other.
Speaker 4: And you know, I have been grateful because I think
Speaker 4: victims should just be able to tell their story. Whatever
Speaker 4: victims look like, you know, whether your male, female, whatever,
Speaker 4: you know, your skin color doesn't matter. It's like, if
Speaker 4: you're the victim, you're the victim, and everyone deserves to
Speaker 4: have their story be told. So for me, it seemed
Speaker 4: that I was able to, you know, start shining a
Speaker 4: light on hey, Like there's victims of all different shapes
Speaker 4: and sizes, and like, we just need to get this
Speaker 4: story out because yeah, I mean it, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of people that don't speak up because they're like, I'm
Speaker 4: not certain how it'll be received, and I hope that.
Speaker 4: I mean, what's been awesome about this podcast is I
Speaker 4: think it's it's encouraging a lot of people to speak
Speaker 4: up because the reception is positive. Hey. And I also
Speaker 4: again I'm like, look, don't portray me as perfect. Portray
Speaker 4: me as human, because that's what's relatable and people can go, okay, like, look,
Speaker 4: I don't have to be a perfect human in order
Speaker 4: to be believed. I just have to be real and honest.
Speaker 1: And let's talk about that for a second. In this story,
Speaker 1: the main victims are males, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: collateral damage in Love Trapped, where it's you know, family members, attorneys,
Speaker 1: the victims run deep in my opinion on this, but
Speaker 1: the main victims are male. In Betrayal, we hear a
Speaker 1: lot of female victims and a few males. So what
Speaker 1: was it like for you to kind of flip the
Speaker 1: script and executive a story that is kind of different,
Speaker 1: same but different than Betrayal?
Speaker 2: It is different.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're always looking for male pov because, you know,
Speaker 3: we just have our community is primarily female on Betrayal,
Speaker 3: and the people that come forward who want to share
Speaker 3: their story are mostly women, and so we'll take whenever
Speaker 3: we can. If there's a guy that wants to share
Speaker 3: their story, we're like absolutely, because it just helps dismantle shame.
Speaker 3: And I think for men in particular, that's the biggest hurdle.
Speaker 3: So when they hear other men come out, you know,
Speaker 3: talk about their story, share what they went through, it
Speaker 3: helps another man on the other side of just listening
Speaker 3: and say, Okay, maybe I can talk about it. Maybe
Speaker 3: not on a worldwide, global platform, but I can share
Speaker 3: it with a friend. And so that's why I think
Speaker 3: it's really important for diversity of voices. And I would
Speaker 3: love to have more men on the show and that's
Speaker 3: why I think you are so valued Ball is because
Speaker 3: you're like, it's not often where a man can come
Speaker 3: forward and say, you know, all this happened to me
Speaker 3: because because of shame, I think, and.
Speaker 1: The emotional vulnerability of Clayton throughout this entire process has
Speaker 1: been something that I've really admired. Like from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: you haven't held anything back, whether it's anger, sadness, excitement
Speaker 1: sometimes about what's going on with the case. So I
Speaker 1: just want to tell you thank you for that, because
Speaker 1: that's what's made this story as great as it is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean for me, I thought, you know,
Speaker 4: as I reflect upon any time that I share something,
Speaker 4: it's if I'm feeling something, then somebody else, if they
Speaker 4: go through something similar, likely has these wave of emotions.
Speaker 4: And yeah, there's obviously the pressure sometimes that falls on
Speaker 4: my shoulders where I say, hey, it's been three years.
Speaker 4: I was it was okay for me to have anger,
Speaker 4: you know on year one, but by year three I
Speaker 4: should be able to be okay with it and I
Speaker 4: should be the bigger person. But then I realized, I'm like,
Speaker 4: that's just not how healing occurs. It's not a linear thing.
Speaker 4: You know, you might feel like you're over it and
Speaker 4: then some old feelings come back. And for me, I
Speaker 4: feel it's a responsibility to showcase that because I'm not
Speaker 4: trying to come across as a perfect human. I think
Speaker 4: if I did that it would just other people then
Speaker 4: might listen in and go, oh, I guess I'm not
Speaker 4: hanging this correctly. So I'm not going to be able
Speaker 4: to get through this. It's like, no, if I share
Speaker 4: that I'm still having vulnerable moments and I thought I
Speaker 4: was past things that I'm not and I'm going back,
Speaker 4: It's like it's you're not really going backwards. This is
Speaker 4: just being human, Like, this is how things naturally progress.
Speaker 4: So I've let that go where I'm like, Clayton, you
Speaker 4: don't have to seem like you're now a sudden three
Speaker 4: years later, like you've gotten to this level of maturity.
Speaker 4: You know, you can show the raw emotions that still exist.
Speaker 4: If they exist, then show them. If they don't exist,
Speaker 4: don't show them. But like, just give whatever it was
Speaker 4: within you, like, put that out there because that's going
Speaker 4: to be relatable. It's a lot of people they're going
Speaker 4: to say, Okay, like, look, he still deals with this,
Speaker 4: So they'll give themselves grace because they'll say, hey, I'm
Speaker 4: three years into my situation. I still have anger, but
Speaker 4: so does he. So this must be normal.
Speaker 1: And I think it's okay for you to still have
Speaker 1: anger because this story is still ongoing. It's not completely
Speaker 1: closed yet.
Speaker 4: I look, I think anger is there's there's certainly like
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a purpose for it. I don't think
Speaker 4: we're supposed to eradicate anger from our lives. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's it's important someone breaks into your house. You want
Speaker 4: to have anger kick in, right, You need a quick
Speaker 4: emotion to like go fight back and so and for me,
Speaker 4: same thing if somebody harms you, you know, not just
Speaker 4: sometimes turning the other cheek, but sometimes you have to
Speaker 4: fight fire with fire. And that was the realization that
Speaker 4: I quickly picked up on with Laura, was like, it's
Speaker 4: a fire with fire scenario. So I need to allow
Speaker 4: like if she's going to fight with hatred in her heart,
Speaker 4: I need to fight with anger in mine, because like
Speaker 4: that's the only way that sometimes you have to get
Speaker 4: to that point where it's the only way that you
Speaker 4: can you can battle back and win the battle. So
Speaker 4: it's picking and choosing those times, but I think anger
Speaker 4: has a night of connotation, and I'm trying to show
Speaker 4: people that there's a place for it where it's actually
Speaker 4: it's useful.
Speaker 1: And Andrea, let me ask you this. With a lot
Speaker 1: of the betrayal stories, there's a conclusion, you know, like
Speaker 1: there is a court case that has been adjudicated, and
Speaker 1: how have the victims on betrayal handled when it's finally
Speaker 1: done in the court system and they have to move
Speaker 1: on with their lives after that.
Speaker 3: This may not be the answer you want to hear,
Speaker 3: but oftentimes it's a whole new.
Speaker 2: Experience.
Speaker 3: Like there's sometimes a conditional way of thinking when you're in.
Speaker 2: Like a trauma mode.
Speaker 3: A lot of times when you're dealing with the criminal
Speaker 3: justice system, you're in survival mode and you are living in.
Speaker 2: Existing and conditional thinking.
Speaker 3: If I just get here to this court date, this hearing,
Speaker 3: I'm just moving forward. I'm putting one foot in front
Speaker 3: of the other. And I totally understand that. And so
Speaker 3: when you get to a sentencing hearing or a plea
Speaker 3: deal and you think it's an ending, you realize that
Speaker 3: actually on the other side of it is a whole
Speaker 3: new journey of dealing with whatever that decision is, whatever
Speaker 3: the verdict is, whatever the sentencing is, and it's a
Speaker 3: whole new wound you've just opened. And so for me
Speaker 3: a lot of my storytellers, it's that unpredictable. It's a
Speaker 3: different stage and a whole different set of grief. Like
Speaker 3: you're just existing and dealing with one aspect and then
Speaker 3: you can actually then mourn and grieve the actual thing
Speaker 3: that you experienced on the other side of it. So
Speaker 3: that could I don't know what will happen, but it's
Speaker 3: just that's oftentimes what I find with the people I
Speaker 3: work with. There's a whole other set when there's a conclusion, yeah, which.
Speaker 4: Makes sense, and I can attest to that. I mean,
Speaker 4: you think about what reality might be, but of course,
Speaker 4: like when you go to these court hearings and there's
Speaker 4: an outcome presented, you know, that becomes your reality, and
Speaker 4: that becomes the thing that you then react to because
Speaker 4: prior to that point, you say, it could be this,
Speaker 4: it could be this, it could be this, So you're
Speaker 4: prepping your emotions for what might be. But really, I
Speaker 4: mean that's almost in a way wasted energy because it's
Speaker 4: not actuality. I mean, that's where yes, with this Cored
Speaker 4: case coming up, I've obviously thought about what could occur,
Speaker 4: but ultimately, like a wound or you know, something will
Speaker 4: open up once the facts are all laid out there
Speaker 4: and it's like, here is the outcome, this is where
Speaker 4: we're headed. Now, now I have to respond to that
Speaker 4: path that we're on, because that's the path we're walking down.
Speaker 3: A lot of what we deal with on betrayal is,
Speaker 3: you know, you have the personal interpersonal betrayal, but then
Speaker 3: there's that secondary betrayal that exists within institutions, and in
Speaker 3: a lot of my cases, it's with the criminal justice
Speaker 3: system and the sentencing.
Speaker 2: Not really matching the crime.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and knowing like the process comcutters. The people on
Speaker 3: the legal teams with the best of intentions but very
Speaker 3: little resources can't really accomplish. Whether it's because of the
Speaker 3: laws in certain states or just because of the amount
Speaker 3: of case slow that they have. There is just this
Speaker 3: injustice between someone's life being fundamentally altered by this person
Speaker 3: versus you know, eighteen months in jail or no jail
Speaker 3: time and just probation, and that is a whole other
Speaker 3: level of betrayal and emotional like having to reconcile that
Speaker 3: we often deal with just a glass and like the
Speaker 3: stories that.
Speaker 2: We pick, that's what's really fascinating to me. And what
Speaker 2: is justice and how do you relate to it? And
Speaker 2: it's hard to confront a system that you're supposed to
Speaker 2: believe in and that also fail you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Andrea, with all of the stories that you've covered
Speaker 1: in Betrayal, after these have been adjudicated, like we just
Speaker 1: talked about, is there a happy.
Speaker 2: Ending for people?
Speaker 3: At the end of our Betrayal weekly we ask everyone,
Speaker 3: why do you want to share your story? We used
Speaker 3: to end our shows with like where people are now?
Speaker 3: And oftentimes we would wrap up the episode by saying,
Speaker 3: you know, this person can trust again and they've met,
Speaker 3: they're in a relationship, or they got married, And we
Speaker 3: used to get emails that said, stop ending your episodes
Speaker 3: with relationship because these people don't need another person to
Speaker 3: be fulfilled. So in a way, we started rewriting the
Speaker 3: way that we would end our weekly episodes to be like, actually,
Speaker 3: where is that person today? Like what is their purpose?
Speaker 3: How are they finding life? And really defining you know,
Speaker 3: what their life looks like today as opposed to who
Speaker 3: they are in relationship with another person. The limited run series,
Speaker 3: we really spend like where they're at in their journey
Speaker 3: and what they're hoping for in the future. So for me,
Speaker 3: I don't believe in conditional thinking, Like I don't believe
Speaker 3: in like where is my ending. I just think it's
Speaker 3: a constant pursuit of where am I going to feel fulfilled?
Speaker 3: And that feels so ongoing, which is hard when you
Speaker 3: work in an industry that wants a book end.
Speaker 2: But for me, again, we talk about the complexity of
Speaker 2: being human, but that's reality. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think you said that perfectly. I
Speaker 4: know we all want a happy endings that makes us
Speaker 4: feel good. But I believe, like life, it's a journey
Speaker 4: and it's a process, and you know, when you go
Speaker 4: through situations like this, I believe that those happier endings
Speaker 4: do occur. But maybe by the time you follow up,
Speaker 4: there's still deep within their healing journey. You know, maybe
Speaker 4: they've closed that chapter but it opened up another five.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's what I've found as I went on
Speaker 4: my journey towards you know, healing from my past and
Speaker 4: going through things like this, is like you might heal
Speaker 4: from one thing and then you open up five more
Speaker 4: from the past, just because, like a lot of things,
Speaker 4: when we were younger, we we didn't have the emotional
Speaker 4: wherewithal to unpack it. So as you go deeper down
Speaker 4: this the into your past, you start connecting dots and
Speaker 4: then it just opens up five more doors.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I can say when I work
Speaker 3: on a limited run series, we'll dedicate you know, nine
Speaker 3: months to a year, sometimes two years working with one
Speaker 3: storyteller on betrayal, and then we'll not see them for
Speaker 3: some time, and then we'll go out and shoot the
Speaker 3: TV show and it all get to be.
Speaker 2: With them again.
Speaker 3: And then for two other families, like we did a cruise,
Speaker 3: like another like a year later. So I saw them
Speaker 3: at very different stages over the course of two three years,
Speaker 3: and it's such an evolving experience, and you know, different
Speaker 3: times the year bring up really different emotions, and so
Speaker 3: I just look at them as like fully formed humans
Speaker 3: and they're just getting through their life and their day
Speaker 3: and so for me, I just see them in their
Speaker 3: own sequence of life as opposed to you know, me
Speaker 3: being comfortable with whether okay, that's on them, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like that's I have to be okay
Speaker 3: with knowing that they're just living their life, you know.
Speaker 1: And let me ask you this, Clayton, what has been
Speaker 1: the most rewarding part of this for you? And also
Speaker 1: what do you hope comes out of this?
Speaker 4: I believe for me, I mean, the most rewarding aspect
Speaker 4: has been the collective healing that I've seen, for one
Speaker 4: to be able to see the other victims and see
Speaker 4: hope come back within their bodies and for them to say, hey, look,
Speaker 4: actually everything after all this time, I actually might be
Speaker 4: able to close a chapter on this because it'll be
Speaker 4: over as opposed to her continually antagonizing us. But then
Speaker 4: I've also seen healing from a greater level of just
Speaker 4: the entire community and people coming together with shared experiences
Speaker 4: of trauma and being able to find their tribe. That's
Speaker 4: been the most rewarding aspect of all of this. And
Speaker 4: so for for what I hope for like this, what
Speaker 4: to come from this is just a continuance of that,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, selfishly, sure, anything that can can
Speaker 4: help me out in my life, you know, through more exposure,
Speaker 4: I'll take. But it's not the expectation that this launches
Speaker 4: me into another realm of relevancy or whatever it's more. Hey,
Speaker 4: this has been a really great display of community involvement
Speaker 4: and what it can do. So I hope that this
Speaker 4: forever ties people together and new friendships were made. And like,
Speaker 4: if this carries on and it all splits up, we
Speaker 4: all go our separate ways, but a few of us
Speaker 4: have a couple of new friends along the way that
Speaker 4: we can lean on when we go through hardships in
Speaker 4: the future. Like, that's what I would hope for, is
Speaker 4: just that that's that's that's what occurs from all of this.
Speaker 1: And I think the online community has been such an
Speaker 1: incredible part of this entire story. And as we're still
Speaker 1: in the trenches of production of Love Trapped, Andrea, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you throughout this entire experience, from development
Speaker 1: to now to hearing the episodes that have come out,
Speaker 1: to knowing what's coming because we obviously talk about them
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, Like what has been the most surprising
Speaker 1: part of this entire story for you?
Speaker 3: The amount of people that have come to support you,
Speaker 3: that I've rallied behind you. It's an incredible thing to
Speaker 3: witness and bear witness too, Like why respectfully, Like if
Speaker 3: I were in your position, like why is everyone championing me?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: Why me? Why this story?
Speaker 3: And when you really sit and think about it and
Speaker 3: sit with it, I think it's because not only is
Speaker 3: it just people who are fighting for truth and like
Speaker 3: realness in a really difficult time culturally and our society,
Speaker 3: but also she hits on really delicate things that a
Speaker 3: lot of women deal with.
Speaker 2: Very deep inside.
Speaker 3: We're talking about really tough subject matter like rape, pregnancy,
Speaker 3: big decisions around pregnancy, and so there are a lot
Speaker 3: of women that have walked those shoes, and men like
Speaker 3: and you know, that have lived it, that have made
Speaker 3: the choices that she has claimed to make and hear
Speaker 3: her set of facts and are like, whoa, that is
Speaker 3: so not right. And so when you kind of go
Speaker 3: through things that she's claiming she's gone through, it is
Speaker 3: so real and so raw that you feel like no
Speaker 3: other option but to rally for the truth because we're
Speaker 3: talking about really big subjects. I hope I'm making sense,
Speaker 3: but that's why I think that was what was most
Speaker 3: surprising for me is to see how what she's doing,
Speaker 3: what she's putting out there, people on such an visceral
Speaker 3: level are like, that's not okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's so many things. It's not just one
Speaker 1: thing like you said, it's rape, it's pregnancy, it's pregnancy loss,
Speaker 1: it's all of these things, all these sensitive things that
Speaker 1: happen to women.
Speaker 3: Right So, whether or not you've been a victim of
Speaker 3: sexual assault, whether or not that you've decided listen, maybe
Speaker 3: right now it's not the right time for me to
Speaker 3: have this child for whatever reason, whether you've had a miscarriage,
Speaker 3: these are all very intense emotional experiences to go through alone,
Speaker 3: like as because you're dealing with something that involves your
Speaker 3: body and it's so complicated. So someone someone weaponizes those things.
Speaker 3: It's really really hard. So I to watch that community
Speaker 3: like you get it. You're like, okay, this is like
Speaker 3: you've got the internet detectives, like this is crazy.
Speaker 2: They're helping the Bachelor. But when you really sit with
Speaker 2: the reality of why they're doing it, it is really
Speaker 2: true and really honest.
Speaker 3: And like deeply feminist, which is why I lom it.
Speaker 4: Well, it needs to be bigger than me. It is
Speaker 4: bigger than me. You know. I've even seen people say
Speaker 4: we should change the name. I'm like, and I'm all,
Speaker 4: I'm fine with that, you know, because I think if
Speaker 4: you just kept it at me, it couldn't reach the
Speaker 4: audience that it has. It couldn't help out more than
Speaker 4: it'd be like, oh well, the center focus is just
Speaker 4: on him. It's like no, No, Let's have healing far
Speaker 4: greater than just me, you know, Let's build a community
Speaker 4: far wider. I think what's like to what you just said?
Speaker 4: You know, the shock is that you'd think that like
Speaker 4: good is what unites people. But truly, what it was
Speaker 4: is all of Laura's lies of what she claims she
Speaker 4: went through that she never did. It's evil united everybody,
Speaker 4: and that's what's This is what you what you're seeing
Speaker 4: is true evil united a large group of people. And
Speaker 4: had she not made those claims, I mean, I don't
Speaker 4: think you'd have the level of support and the collective
Speaker 4: group that you have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And it's obvious that you were, you know,
Speaker 1: the Former Bachelor. I think there's a couple of episodes
Speaker 1: where we're having conversations about something and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: cannot believe that this is my job and this is
Speaker 1: what I'm talking to the former Bachelor about because it's
Speaker 1: honestly that wild. But when we brought the podcast to you.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you to see this team
Speaker 1: of producers, this production and be able to trust them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: trust us, I guess with your story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I have trust issues with entertainment
Speaker 4: groups because I've it's a whole conglomerate of people. And
Speaker 4: you know, I've also realized for the longest I said,
Speaker 4: you know, I don't trust producers, but really I was
Speaker 4: putting all of that weight on their shoulders because the
Speaker 4: further that I got into the mix and understaw all
Speaker 4: the players in the game, I realized, you know, the
Speaker 4: editors are the ones that really are are just as
Speaker 4: equally at fault, at least when it comes to if
Speaker 4: I'm placing fault on people that are causing me to
Speaker 4: lack trust. And so, you know, even though we had
Speaker 4: a strong connection right away and I trusted you, I
Speaker 4: was still like, look, I'm fearful of the editors because
Speaker 4: they are behind the scenes. I'm not talking with them,
Speaker 4: so they're not getting to know me. So all they
Speaker 4: get is they get material fed to them and they go, well,
Speaker 4: this is what we have, and we can take this
Speaker 4: in this direction or this direction or that direction, and
Speaker 4: so even though I was able to lower my guard
Speaker 4: with you, it wasn't until the first episode came out
Speaker 4: that I was able to actually fully lower my guard
Speaker 4: because it was all right, here we go again. I'm
Speaker 4: going to press play and there's no going back. So
Speaker 4: when I press play, it doesn't matter if I don't
Speaker 4: like this. By the end of this podcast, I will
Speaker 4: understand what narrative that their space and is it something
Speaker 4: that is aligned with me or is it not, because
Speaker 4: it doesn't really matter at this point. If it's not
Speaker 4: aligned with me, I can't press the rewind button. It's
Speaker 4: out there and this is the way they're that they're
Speaker 4: taking it. And I've already signed the documents, so you know,
Speaker 4: that's when you write. When you sign on the dotted line,
Speaker 4: they tell you have nothing to worry about. You know,
Speaker 4: we're going to tell you, tell your story in the
Speaker 4: way that you want to be told, and if you're
Speaker 4: a good person, that's the way that you'll be perceived.
Speaker 4: I was told that verbatim, and then you know, I
Speaker 4: watched my show air on The Bachelor, and you know
Speaker 4: how talk about really messing me up psychologically because I
Speaker 4: went back to that moment I watched The Bachelor, and
Speaker 4: I said, but wait, they said, I if I was
Speaker 4: a good person, that's the way I'll be perceived. So
Speaker 4: am I not a good person? You know that That's
Speaker 4: what I had to fight with, and it really, you know,
Speaker 4: it really talk about some of that anger. You know,
Speaker 4: I have harbored a lot of anger towards that individual
Speaker 4: because I'm like, Woul, did you lie to me? Or
Speaker 4: maybe I'm I'm a monster and I don't even realize it.
Speaker 4: I lied to myself. So it's it's it's hard. And
Speaker 4: even though you were incredible from the jump until I
Speaker 4: press play on episode one, I was really just vulnerable
Speaker 4: and thought, I'm honestly, this could be round three or
Speaker 4: around at this point round four of you know, of
Speaker 4: putting my story out there, and it could be told
Speaker 4: in the wrong way.
Speaker 1: And I want you to know from my perspective. And
Speaker 1: Drake and Nintesta, she really cared like she was really
Speaker 1: like and you are you continued to be and you
Speaker 1: never stop. But she always was keeping you in mind.
Speaker 1: And there was this level of also keeping Laura in
Speaker 1: mind too, And in certain ways, it's really hard when
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a lot of flies but we do
Speaker 1: consider the complexity of her stories too, of like, could
Speaker 1: she go back to plan parenthood twice because she wasn't
Speaker 1: ready the first time? Yeah, the reality is she could
Speaker 1: because that's a scary experience.
Speaker 3: So it's like a delicate balance of being fair but
Speaker 3: also just telling reality. And throughout the whole time, you
Speaker 3: were just trying to do right by the story. And
Speaker 3: you're the kind of person of like, the truth is
Speaker 3: the truth, and so it was not hard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean because also too, I'm glad you brought
Speaker 4: it up. Look like, beneath the anger or beyond the anger,
Speaker 4: Laura's still a human and I think, you know, it's
Speaker 4: not for me. It's not about trying to raise me
Speaker 4: up and lift me up and then you know, push
Speaker 4: her further down. I really want her to heal. I
Speaker 4: want her to see a brighter day. And so you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's it's it's uncovering and sharing the story and
Speaker 4: hopefully you know, being able to find resolution across the board.
Speaker 4: You know, I would love to be able to see her,
Speaker 4: be able to have her moment where she something strikes
Speaker 4: a nerve or opens up her mind and goes wait,
Speaker 4: hold on, like something's clearly off here by way of numbers,
Speaker 4: the community that has has formed against me. I mean,
Speaker 4: maybe I'm in the wrong here, maybe I've been lied to,
Speaker 4: maybe I've had wrong the wrong people in my corner.
Speaker 4: So again, there's a complexity and and we're not here to,
Speaker 4: you know, say here's the good and here's the bad,
Speaker 4: as most most TV shows do. There's it's just good bad,
Speaker 4: you know, happy, sad, and it's like no, like, this
Speaker 4: is about the complexity of the human life and sharing
Speaker 4: stories but also being mindful that, like everyone involved in
Speaker 4: this is still human, Like, how do we produce an
Speaker 4: outcome that is favorable to all long term because it's
Speaker 4: not We're not trying to drive someone further down the hole.
Speaker 3: It was really Beautify said yeah, because I don't think
Speaker 3: we've talked about that, but I do feel like that
Speaker 3: was always something that we internally as when we're voicing,
Speaker 3: and something that I was saying in episode eight of
Speaker 3: like Okay, well as someone that had walked in similar shoes,
Speaker 3: I've made these decisions, let's be fair to it. And
Speaker 3: it's hard when you know that they're a lie, but
Speaker 3: knowing that it could it's still in a different and
Speaker 3: not shame a woman for going back a second time
Speaker 3: and that their reality is real.
Speaker 2: So it was a hard it's a hard show. You
Speaker 2: guys have done an incredible job.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Thank you really balancing all of the lies in reality
Speaker 3: so once Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Andrea, this has
Speaker 1: been such a wonderful conversation and of course thanks to
Speaker 1: you Clayton. It's been really fun being at south By
Speaker 1: Southwest with iHeart with you guys this weekend. So, Andrea,
Speaker 1: tell us where we can find Betrayal. Yeah, you can
Speaker 1: get it on the iHeartRadio app. You can also subscribe
Speaker 1: through Apple True Crime Plus. You can get it through
Speaker 1: the Apple podcast or wherever you got your podcasts.