1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Love Trapped listeners. It's Stephanie. It's been a whirlwind 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: of a week. I just got back from south By 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 2: It was an. 5 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: Unbelievable experience where I was able to meet some of 6 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: my favorite podcast hosts and even got to present an 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: award at the iHeart Podcast Awards. I also got to 8 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: do a sit down interview live from Austin with Clayton 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: and my executive producer for Love Trapped, and the host 10 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: of the hit true crime podcast Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. Also 11 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: fun fact about Betrayal. On Sunday, March twenty ninth, at 12 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: ten pm Eastern, Betrayal is premiering on ABC Network, one 13 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: of the first podcasts to become a primetime TV series. 14 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: I'm so excited for all my colleagues associated with this show, 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: so please be sure to check it out and don't 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: forget new episodes of Love Trapped come out every Thursday. 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your support. Now let's get 18 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: into it. Here's my sit down conversation with Clayton and 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: Andrea about how Love Trapped came to be. I hope 20 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. So I've been with Glass podcasts since 21 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: June of last year. And this is my first time 22 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: meeting my executive producer for Love Trapped in person, Andrea Gunning. 23 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: She is the host and producer of Betrayal, also another 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: iHeart and Glass podcast. And we are at south By 25 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: Southwest in Austin, Texas with iHeart and we've got Clayton 26 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: Eckard here and we're going to talk a little bit 27 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: about the making of Love Trapped. 28 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great. It's such a good show. Guys, you 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 3: really knocked it out of the park. 30 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 4: Well, thank you obviously for providing us with a platform 31 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 4: to do so. And you're you're quite an expert obviously 32 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 4: and stories like this, I'm just curious. First question I 33 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 4: want to start off with is does this impact you, 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 4: like mentally to go through these things and you know what, 35 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 4: how do you protect your own mental health? 36 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 3: It's a really good question that not a lot of 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: people take the time to ask, So thank you for asking. 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 3: That they do impact me. I deal with the different 39 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 3: ways I try to really protect my physical health to 40 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: keep my energy up. 41 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: I think I worked. 42 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: One of my first podcasts that I ever produced was 43 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: Confronting Columbine and immediately after I went and. 44 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: Bought a dog. I was like, I need I need. 45 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 3: Like emotional support, like you need love and a safe space. 46 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 3: But I've been doing it for so long now that 47 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 3: i can kind of compartmentalize, but it does take a toll. 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: Like this past season of the Trial, season five is 49 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: really near and dear to my heart because it's about 50 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 3: a really heavy topic that I've experienced in an adjacent way. 51 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: So I have a really great team. Stephanie's on it. 52 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: You're incredible, And I think it's just like relying on 53 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 3: the team around you to pick up where you need 54 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: to and take the time, go for walks, and just 55 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: manage the material where you can. 56 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 2: That's all I can really say. I work out, I 57 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: lift a lot of weights. 58 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 4: That also helps, definitely helps. 59 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many sensitive topics in Love Trapped, and 60 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I've realized in 61 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: my research is that a lot of the people and 62 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: the support system comes from people that have experienced something 63 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: like Laura claims she has experienced. So I know that 64 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,839 Speaker 1: you and I have had conversations about that offline where 65 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: it's like, these are really sensitive topics, how are we 66 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: going to take care of these when we tell them 67 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: to the audience, and also how are we going to 68 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: take care of ourselves? So that was a really great question. 69 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 4: Clayton, thank you, and I also yeah, I want to know. 70 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 4: I mean why hop on this objective is super grateful 71 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 4: to have you as a part of the team. I mean, 72 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 4: but what was the draugs? I mean, you guys originally 73 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: came to me and asked if this was something that 74 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 4: I'd be comfortable sharing, and certainly your reputation and what 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 4: I had seen, I'm like, okay, you know this is 76 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 4: somebody that understands they share stories of similar nature. So 77 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 4: for me, I'm in good hands with expertise. But you know, 78 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 4: like what what what drew you guys to reaching out? 79 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 3: So I can't speak for We have another company we 80 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 3: work with. It's cry Baby, Danny and Love. It's a 81 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: little inside baseball, But they were the ones that originally 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: reached out to you, and I think that they just 83 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: saw I think Love was googling a Laura Owens for 84 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: something completely generate an. 85 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 4: Artist's completely different. So crazy how that comes together by 86 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 4: the way that he was looking for a completely separate 87 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 4: Laura Owens, right. 88 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: And so Lev works in development and he's constantly finding stories, 89 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 3: and so he was online looking for something completely different 90 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: stuffled upon your Laura Owens. And I think through that 91 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 3: just once you get a sense of the story, you 92 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 3: do a deep dive. And I think in episode one 93 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 3: you even say to Stephanie, like, be careful because once 94 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: you start like you can't you it's the. 95 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 4: Rabbit hole that you never returned from. 96 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: I'm there right now, right, I'm in it absolutely. And 97 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: so when Danny and Lov brought this to Glass pot Pod, 98 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: which is a division of Glass Entertainment Group, my colleague 99 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: Ben and I were just, Oh, this feels really in 100 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: line with a lot of the stuff that we do, 101 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: specifically betrayal. 102 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: I don't like saying that, but my brand is like betrayal, lies, 103 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: and deceit, and your story has a lot of that. 104 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 3: But it's not just about the lies. It's about the 105 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 3: aftermath and the emotional experience when you've been your your 106 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 3: life has been hijacked by somebody and has altered your reality. 107 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: And I think that Glass is a really good job 108 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: of taking a complicated story and allowing the audience to 109 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: emotionally relate to it. So, yeah, they're the headlines are 110 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 3: the obvious, like you know, the roller coaster of story 111 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: points that your story has. But what really intrigued me 112 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 3: was the emotional access that people could relate to from you. 113 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: That's what's important to me in storytelling. 114 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: And how did it come about? You know, like Love 115 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: finds this podcast or this idea for a podcast or 116 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: a documentary and then what happens from there? Because I 117 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: signed on for this project after it had already been 118 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: sold to iHeart. 119 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you worked on it sooner than I did. 120 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: Actually, Clayton, you guys did a reel for television, and 121 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 3: so glass we simultaneously shop the audio rights and then 122 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: the nonscript did right, and so Danny and Love were 123 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: creating a real and then Ben and I saw it. 124 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: And were like, what is this story? Oh my god? 125 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: We got to send this to our partners and like 126 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: shop it around. But the first, you know place we 127 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: took it was iHeart and they just get it, like 128 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 3: they understand everything about what betrayal brings to the table 129 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 3: in terms of complicated storytelling and knows that we can 130 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: deliver on how complicated your story is and so and 131 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: they got it right away. 132 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I think what's so interesting too, is 133 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: that I had actually interviewed for a job with you 134 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. Yes, you did, Oh my gosh, and 135 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: my husband got the job over me. We accidentally applied 136 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: for the same job and then I took another job 137 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: that I really really loved and got laid off. And 138 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: so when this came across my desk, when it was 139 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: brought to me, like, I think the question for you 140 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: is why me for this story? 141 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: Well, I think I should tell Clayton that we were 142 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: she There was two finalists and it was Stephanie's husband 143 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: and Stephanie and we just it was more of a 144 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: male producing role, and so that's why her husband got 145 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: the job. 146 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: But ever since we had interviewed you for that, it 147 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: wasn't the right fit. It was more of a male POV. 148 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: So but ever since then we were like, what's Stephanie doing? 149 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: And your husband's like she's busy, Like leave her alone. 150 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: And so when this came up came around, I knew 151 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: that you had interest in Bachelor Nation because you had 152 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: interviewed for Jason Tarctic's show, right, So, like I. 153 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: Did an interview, I was like in in process of 154 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: like trying to really work on that day show. 155 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: Was the story that I got. 156 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, so she's clearly in Bachelor Nation. Yeah, 157 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: maybe she'll have interest in working on your story. But 158 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 3: I just through our conversations, I knew that you could. 159 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: Really dive into source material. 160 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: There is so much material to read and immerse yourself in, 161 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: like legally, the legal documents thousands and thousands of pages. 162 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: And this is this is a high stake story. 163 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: We're dealing with someone that's really complicated, very litigious, so 164 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: it takes someone that's going to be really careful. 165 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: And I just felt that you could do it. I 166 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: felt like you were the right person for the job. 167 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: Thank you. And I have to say that I've learned 168 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: so much from you from a storytelling perspective, and I 169 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: couldn't have done this podcast without the Glass Podcast team. 170 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hosting it and I'm the producer, but 171 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: the people behind the scenes really audio editors, story editors, producers, 172 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: like every single person you hear in the credits puts 173 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: such a good touch on making this the final product. 174 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 1: The one thing I do want to ask Clayton, though, 175 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: is we had that first conversation and you're like, you 176 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: know you're going to be in over your head with this. 177 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: When was the moment for you that you decided like, 178 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to trust Stephanie with this because you were 179 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: you were a little guarded at first, Oh were you? 180 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 4: I was? Yeah. I actually wasn't enthusiat all about doing 181 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 4: a podcast. I wanted it to be a documentary or 182 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 4: be nothing, just because I wasn't really aware of how 183 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 4: the podcast would actually turn out. And so I had 184 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 4: them basically kind of proved to me that. I said, 185 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 4: send me material, what have you done in the past, 186 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 4: let me like actually see a proof of concept. And 187 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 4: when I listened to one of the podcasts, within like 188 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 4: a minute, I realized, I'm like, this is not your 189 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 4: typical podcast. This is a storytelling way of doing it. 190 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 4: It's really intriguing and you know what, this actually could work, 191 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: And so I then became very excited by that. But 192 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 4: I'm still like, hey, look, we're pushing this as a documentary, right, 193 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 4: like that's the first and foremost. It's just this podcast 194 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 4: will be on the back end of it. Funny how 195 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 4: that works out, thankfully. I just you know, said let's 196 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 4: to do it. But then when I met Stephanie, Yeah, 197 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 4: I mean, look she's very sweet, she's nice, like she's 198 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 4: she I mean, I've loved it a death and she's 199 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: come on a team. But I thought, look, you don't 200 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 4: know what you're getting into, Like there's just so much here, 201 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 4: and unless you are willing to like fully immerse yourself, 202 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 4: you're going to miss out on details. You're not going 203 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 4: to tell it correctly, and this is going to potentially 204 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 4: put me at risk of like having a story told 205 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 4: in an incorrect manner, which you've already had, which I've 206 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 4: already had. You know, I've been very sensitive to that 207 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 4: with previous shows where I'm not really happy with how 208 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 4: things are portrayed because to me, they're not fully real 209 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 4: to what I experienced. And so this was another situation 210 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 4: where I'm like, look, if I'm going to be vulnerable 211 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 4: again and allow producers once again to tell my life story, 212 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 4: I'm not doing this where it gets told incorrectly or 213 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 4: altered in a way to just make it appear sexier 214 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: at the expense of me. That was obviously the big hesitancy. 215 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 4: So what really sold me on you was the amount 216 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 4: of time and the genuine I could just feel your 217 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 4: energy from the jump. I'm like, she's really like she 218 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 4: cares first and foremost. This isn't about her just nabbing 219 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 4: a new story. This is really about her looking me 220 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 4: in the eyes and being like, I really want to 221 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 4: share your story and tell this, and I will put 222 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 4: as much effort in as I can to make this 223 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 4: in a way that you know that tells your story 224 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: in the way that you want it to be told. 225 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 4: And it was a good synergistic relationship because I told 226 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 4: her I wanted to be told in the real way. 227 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 4: I don't want this to be like everyone pat Clayton 228 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 4: on the back and you call them a superstar. I said, 229 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 4: I want this to be shared as it is, like 230 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 4: I'm not on a pedestal, like I'm just I'm in 231 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 4: the middle somewhere. I'm not good, I'm not bad. I'm 232 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 4: just in the middle like any other human. 233 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: I really respect that, and I think one of our 234 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: core values, like last podcasts, is like the beautiful complexity 235 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 3: that is the human experience. It is not a binary 236 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 3: black and white thing, good and bad choices. There are 237 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: gradients of decision making where you know there's accountability and 238 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: culpability on different sides of the street. 239 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: And what I love about betrayal. 240 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 3: When I love about your show and just your story 241 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: is you're okay with leaning into your vulnerabilities and the 242 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: choices that you make. And I think that there's an 243 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: emotional access there. We talk about that a lot of 244 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: class podcasts about what's emotional access, Like the part of 245 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: me is a part of you. Someone could hear your 246 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: story and say I made a similar decision. I didn't 247 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: meet all our owns, but I kind of walk similar steps. 248 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 3: And you can only do that by living in that gray, right, like, 249 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 3: and that's the real reality. 250 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: It's not like the good and the bad. It's the middle. 251 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and for me too. I mean I also, as 252 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 4: I realized when I decided to make this known to 253 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 4: a larger audience, that I was receiving a lot of 254 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 4: back on the backside of things in my DMS, you know, 255 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 4: support from men that were saying, hey, look like, thank 256 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: you so much for speaking up because I'm going through this. 257 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 4: And then I was getting ten, twenty fifteen or fifty 258 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 4: different messages of people saying that my brother went through this, 259 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 4: or a friend went through this, or my significant other. 260 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 4: And you know, I have been grateful because I think 261 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 4: victims should just be able to tell their story. Whatever 262 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 4: victims look like, you know, whether your male, female, whatever, 263 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: you know, your skin color doesn't matter. It's like, if 264 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 4: you're the victim, you're the victim, and everyone deserves to 265 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 4: have their story be told. So for me, it seemed 266 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 4: that I was able to, you know, start shining a 267 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 4: light on hey, Like there's victims of all different shapes 268 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 4: and sizes, and like, we just need to get this 269 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 4: story out because yeah, I mean it, there's a lot 270 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 4: of people that don't speak up because they're like, I'm 271 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 4: not certain how it'll be received, and I hope that. 272 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: I mean, what's been awesome about this podcast is I 273 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 4: think it's it's encouraging a lot of people to speak 274 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 4: up because the reception is positive. Hey. And I also 275 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 4: again I'm like, look, don't portray me as perfect. Portray 276 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 4: me as human, because that's what's relatable and people can go, okay, like, look, 277 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 4: I don't have to be a perfect human in order 278 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 4: to be believed. I just have to be real and honest. 279 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: And let's talk about that for a second. In this story, 280 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: the main victims are males, and there's a lot of 281 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: collateral damage in Love Trapped, where it's you know, family members, attorneys, 282 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: the victims run deep in my opinion on this, but 283 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: the main victims are male. In Betrayal, we hear a 284 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: lot of female victims and a few males. So what 285 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: was it like for you to kind of flip the 286 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: script and executive a story that is kind of different, 287 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: same but different than Betrayal? 288 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: It is different. 289 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: I mean, we're always looking for male pov because, you know, 290 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: we just have our community is primarily female on Betrayal, 291 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: and the people that come forward who want to share 292 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: their story are mostly women, and so we'll take whenever 293 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 3: we can. If there's a guy that wants to share 294 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: their story, we're like absolutely, because it just helps dismantle shame. 295 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: And I think for men in particular, that's the biggest hurdle. 296 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: So when they hear other men come out, you know, 297 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: talk about their story, share what they went through, it 298 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: helps another man on the other side of just listening 299 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 3: and say, Okay, maybe I can talk about it. Maybe 300 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: not on a worldwide, global platform, but I can share 301 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: it with a friend. And so that's why I think 302 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: it's really important for diversity of voices. And I would 303 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: love to have more men on the show and that's 304 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 3: why I think you are so valued Ball is because 305 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: you're like, it's not often where a man can come 306 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: forward and say, you know, all this happened to me 307 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: because because of shame, I think, and. 308 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: The emotional vulnerability of Clayton throughout this entire process has 309 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: been something that I've really admired. Like from the very beginning, 310 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: you haven't held anything back, whether it's anger, sadness, excitement 311 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: sometimes about what's going on with the case. So I 312 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: just want to tell you thank you for that, because 313 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: that's what's made this story as great as it is. 314 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean for me, I thought, you know, 315 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 4: as I reflect upon any time that I share something, 316 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 4: it's if I'm feeling something, then somebody else, if they 317 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 4: go through something similar, likely has these wave of emotions. 318 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 4: And yeah, there's obviously the pressure sometimes that falls on 319 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 4: my shoulders where I say, hey, it's been three years. 320 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 4: I was it was okay for me to have anger, 321 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 4: you know on year one, but by year three I 322 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 4: should be able to be okay with it and I 323 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 4: should be the bigger person. But then I realized, I'm like, 324 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 4: that's just not how healing occurs. It's not a linear thing. 325 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 4: You know, you might feel like you're over it and 326 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: then some old feelings come back. And for me, I 327 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 4: feel it's a responsibility to showcase that because I'm not 328 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 4: trying to come across as a perfect human. I think 329 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 4: if I did that it would just other people then 330 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 4: might listen in and go, oh, I guess I'm not 331 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 4: hanging this correctly. So I'm not going to be able 332 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 4: to get through this. It's like, no, if I share 333 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: that I'm still having vulnerable moments and I thought I 334 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 4: was past things that I'm not and I'm going back, 335 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 4: It's like it's you're not really going backwards. This is 336 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 4: just being human, Like, this is how things naturally progress. 337 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 4: So I've let that go where I'm like, Clayton, you 338 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 4: don't have to seem like you're now a sudden three 339 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: years later, like you've gotten to this level of maturity. 340 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 4: You know, you can show the raw emotions that still exist. 341 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 4: If they exist, then show them. If they don't exist, 342 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 4: don't show them. But like, just give whatever it was 343 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 4: within you, like, put that out there because that's going 344 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 4: to be relatable. It's a lot of people they're going 345 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,479 Speaker 4: to say, Okay, like, look, he still deals with this, 346 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 4: So they'll give themselves grace because they'll say, hey, I'm 347 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 4: three years into my situation. I still have anger, but 348 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: so does he. So this must be normal. 349 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: And I think it's okay for you to still have 350 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: anger because this story is still ongoing. It's not completely 351 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: closed yet. 352 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 4: I look, I think anger is there's there's certainly like 353 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 4: I mean, there's a purpose for it. I don't think 354 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 4: we're supposed to eradicate anger from our lives. I mean, 355 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 4: it's it's important someone breaks into your house. You want 356 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 4: to have anger kick in, right, You need a quick 357 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 4: emotion to like go fight back and so and for me, 358 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 4: same thing if somebody harms you, you know, not just 359 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 4: sometimes turning the other cheek, but sometimes you have to 360 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 4: fight fire with fire. And that was the realization that 361 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 4: I quickly picked up on with Laura, was like, it's 362 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: a fire with fire scenario. So I need to allow 363 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 4: like if she's going to fight with hatred in her heart, 364 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: I need to fight with anger in mine, because like 365 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 4: that's the only way that sometimes you have to get 366 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 4: to that point where it's the only way that you 367 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 4: can you can battle back and win the battle. So 368 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 4: it's picking and choosing those times, but I think anger 369 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 4: has a night of connotation, and I'm trying to show 370 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 4: people that there's a place for it where it's actually 371 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 4: it's useful. 372 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: And Andrea, let me ask you this. With a lot 373 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: of the betrayal stories, there's a conclusion, you know, like 374 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: there is a court case that has been adjudicated, and 375 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,479 Speaker 1: how have the victims on betrayal handled when it's finally 376 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: done in the court system and they have to move 377 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: on with their lives after that. 378 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 3: This may not be the answer you want to hear, 379 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 3: but oftentimes it's a whole new. 380 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: Experience. 381 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 3: Like there's sometimes a conditional way of thinking when you're in. 382 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: Like a trauma mode. 383 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 3: A lot of times when you're dealing with the criminal 384 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: justice system, you're in survival mode and you are living in. 385 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 2: Existing and conditional thinking. 386 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: If I just get here to this court date, this hearing, 387 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 3: I'm just moving forward. I'm putting one foot in front 388 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 3: of the other. And I totally understand that. And so 389 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: when you get to a sentencing hearing or a plea 390 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: deal and you think it's an ending, you realize that 391 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: actually on the other side of it is a whole 392 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: new journey of dealing with whatever that decision is, whatever 393 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 3: the verdict is, whatever the sentencing is, and it's a 394 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 3: whole new wound you've just opened. And so for me 395 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: a lot of my storytellers, it's that unpredictable. It's a 396 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 3: different stage and a whole different set of grief. Like 397 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 3: you're just existing and dealing with one aspect and then 398 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 3: you can actually then mourn and grieve the actual thing 399 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 3: that you experienced on the other side of it. So 400 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 3: that could I don't know what will happen, but it's 401 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 3: just that's oftentimes what I find with the people I 402 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 3: work with. There's a whole other set when there's a conclusion, yeah, which. 403 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 4: Makes sense, and I can attest to that. I mean, 404 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 4: you think about what reality might be, but of course, 405 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 4: like when you go to these court hearings and there's 406 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 4: an outcome presented, you know, that becomes your reality, and 407 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: that becomes the thing that you then react to because 408 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 4: prior to that point, you say, it could be this, 409 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 4: it could be this, it could be this, So you're 410 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 4: prepping your emotions for what might be. But really, I 411 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: mean that's almost in a way wasted energy because it's 412 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 4: not actuality. I mean, that's where yes, with this Cored 413 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 4: case coming up, I've obviously thought about what could occur, 414 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 4: but ultimately, like a wound or you know, something will 415 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: open up once the facts are all laid out there 416 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 4: and it's like, here is the outcome, this is where 417 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 4: we're headed. Now, now I have to respond to that 418 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: path that we're on, because that's the path we're walking down. 419 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: A lot of what we deal with on betrayal is, 420 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 3: you know, you have the personal interpersonal betrayal, but then 421 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: there's that secondary betrayal that exists within institutions, and in 422 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 3: a lot of my cases, it's with the criminal justice 423 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 3: system and the sentencing. 424 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: Not really matching the crime. 425 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and knowing like the process comcutters. The people on 426 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: the legal teams with the best of intentions but very 427 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: little resources can't really accomplish. Whether it's because of the 428 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 3: laws in certain states or just because of the amount 429 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 3: of case slow that they have. There is just this 430 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 3: injustice between someone's life being fundamentally altered by this person 431 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 3: versus you know, eighteen months in jail or no jail 432 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 3: time and just probation, and that is a whole other 433 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 3: level of betrayal and emotional like having to reconcile that 434 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 3: we often deal with just a glass and like the 435 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: stories that. 436 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: We pick, that's what's really fascinating to me. And what 437 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: is justice and how do you relate to it? And 438 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: it's hard to confront a system that you're supposed to 439 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: believe in and that also fail you. 440 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Andrea, with all of the stories that you've covered 441 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: in Betrayal, after these have been adjudicated, like we just 442 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: talked about, is there a happy. 443 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: Ending for people? 444 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 3: At the end of our Betrayal weekly we ask everyone, 445 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: why do you want to share your story? We used 446 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 3: to end our shows with like where people are now? 447 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 3: And oftentimes we would wrap up the episode by saying, 448 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: you know, this person can trust again and they've met, 449 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 3: they're in a relationship, or they got married, And we 450 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 3: used to get emails that said, stop ending your episodes 451 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 3: with relationship because these people don't need another person to 452 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 3: be fulfilled. So in a way, we started rewriting the 453 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 3: way that we would end our weekly episodes to be like, actually, 454 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 3: where is that person today? Like what is their purpose? 455 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: How are they finding life? And really defining you know, 456 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: what their life looks like today as opposed to who 457 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 3: they are in relationship with another person. The limited run series, 458 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: we really spend like where they're at in their journey 459 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 3: and what they're hoping for in the future. So for me, 460 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 3: I don't believe in conditional thinking, Like I don't believe 461 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 3: in like where is my ending. I just think it's 462 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: a constant pursuit of where am I going to feel fulfilled? 463 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 3: And that feels so ongoing, which is hard when you 464 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 3: work in an industry that wants a book end. 465 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 2: But for me, again, we talk about the complexity of 466 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 2: being human, but that's reality. Yeah, yeah, you know. 467 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think you said that perfectly. I 468 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 4: know we all want a happy endings that makes us 469 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 4: feel good. But I believe, like life, it's a journey 470 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: and it's a process, and you know, when you go 471 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 4: through situations like this, I believe that those happier endings 472 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 4: do occur. But maybe by the time you follow up, 473 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 4: there's still deep within their healing journey. You know, maybe 474 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 4: they've closed that chapter but it opened up another five. 475 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 4: I mean, that's what I've found as I went on 476 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 4: my journey towards you know, healing from my past and 477 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 4: going through things like this, is like you might heal 478 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: from one thing and then you open up five more 479 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 4: from the past, just because, like a lot of things, 480 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 4: when we were younger, we we didn't have the emotional 481 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 4: wherewithal to unpack it. So as you go deeper down 482 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 4: this the into your past, you start connecting dots and 483 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 4: then it just opens up five more doors. 484 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I can say when I work 485 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 3: on a limited run series, we'll dedicate you know, nine 486 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 3: months to a year, sometimes two years working with one 487 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 3: storyteller on betrayal, and then we'll not see them for 488 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: some time, and then we'll go out and shoot the 489 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: TV show and it all get to be. 490 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: With them again. 491 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: And then for two other families, like we did a cruise, 492 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 3: like another like a year later. So I saw them 493 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 3: at very different stages over the course of two three years, 494 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: and it's such an evolving experience, and you know, different 495 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: times the year bring up really different emotions, and so 496 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 3: I just look at them as like fully formed humans 497 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 3: and they're just getting through their life and their day 498 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: and so for me, I just see them in their 499 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: own sequence of life as opposed to you know, me 500 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: being comfortable with whether okay, that's on them, you know 501 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 3: what I mean, Like that's I have to be okay 502 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: with knowing that they're just living their life, you know. 503 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: And let me ask you this, Clayton, what has been 504 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: the most rewarding part of this for you? And also 505 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: what do you hope comes out of this? 506 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 4: I believe for me, I mean, the most rewarding aspect 507 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 4: has been the collective healing that I've seen, for one 508 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 4: to be able to see the other victims and see 509 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: hope come back within their bodies and for them to say, hey, look, 510 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 4: actually everything after all this time, I actually might be 511 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: able to close a chapter on this because it'll be 512 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 4: over as opposed to her continually antagonizing us. But then 513 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 4: I've also seen healing from a greater level of just 514 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 4: the entire community and people coming together with shared experiences 515 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 4: of trauma and being able to find their tribe. That's 516 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 4: been the most rewarding aspect of all of this. And 517 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 4: so for for what I hope for like this, what 518 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: to come from this is just a continuance of that, 519 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, selfishly, sure, anything that can can 520 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 4: help me out in my life, you know, through more exposure, 521 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 4: I'll take. But it's not the expectation that this launches 522 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 4: me into another realm of relevancy or whatever it's more. Hey, 523 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 4: this has been a really great display of community involvement 524 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 4: and what it can do. So I hope that this 525 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 4: forever ties people together and new friendships were made. And like, 526 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 4: if this carries on and it all splits up, we 527 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 4: all go our separate ways, but a few of us 528 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 4: have a couple of new friends along the way that 529 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 4: we can lean on when we go through hardships in 530 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 4: the future. Like, that's what I would hope for, is 531 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 4: just that that's that's that's what occurs from all of this. 532 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: And I think the online community has been such an 533 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: incredible part of this entire story. And as we're still 534 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: in the trenches of production of Love Trapped, Andrea, I 535 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: want to ask you throughout this entire experience, from development 536 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: to now to hearing the episodes that have come out, 537 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: to knowing what's coming because we obviously talk about them 538 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, Like what has been the most surprising 539 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: part of this entire story for you? 540 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: The amount of people that have come to support you, 541 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 3: that I've rallied behind you. It's an incredible thing to 542 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 3: witness and bear witness too, Like why respectfully, Like if 543 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: I were in your position, like why is everyone championing me? 544 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 4: Like? 545 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 2: Why me? Why this story? 546 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: And when you really sit and think about it and 547 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 3: sit with it, I think it's because not only is 548 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: it just people who are fighting for truth and like 549 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 3: realness in a really difficult time culturally and our society, 550 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 3: but also she hits on really delicate things that a 551 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 3: lot of women deal with. 552 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: Very deep inside. 553 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 3: We're talking about really tough subject matter like rape, pregnancy, 554 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 3: big decisions around pregnancy, and so there are a lot 555 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 3: of women that have walked those shoes, and men like 556 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 3: and you know, that have lived it, that have made 557 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 3: the choices that she has claimed to make and hear 558 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: her set of facts and are like, whoa, that is 559 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: so not right. And so when you kind of go 560 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 3: through things that she's claiming she's gone through, it is 561 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: so real and so raw that you feel like no 562 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: other option but to rally for the truth because we're 563 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: talking about really big subjects. I hope I'm making sense, 564 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 3: but that's why I think that was what was most 565 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 3: surprising for me is to see how what she's doing, 566 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: what she's putting out there, people on such an visceral 567 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: level are like, that's not okay. 568 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's so many things. It's not just one 569 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: thing like you said, it's rape, it's pregnancy, it's pregnancy loss, 570 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: it's all of these things, all these sensitive things that 571 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: happen to women. 572 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 3: Right So, whether or not you've been a victim of 573 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: sexual assault, whether or not that you've decided listen, maybe 574 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 3: right now it's not the right time for me to 575 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: have this child for whatever reason, whether you've had a miscarriage, 576 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: these are all very intense emotional experiences to go through alone, 577 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 3: like as because you're dealing with something that involves your 578 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 3: body and it's so complicated. So someone someone weaponizes those things. 579 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 3: It's really really hard. So I to watch that community 580 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: like you get it. You're like, okay, this is like 581 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: you've got the internet detectives, like this is crazy. 582 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: They're helping the Bachelor. But when you really sit with 583 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: the reality of why they're doing it, it is really 584 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: true and really honest. 585 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 3: And like deeply feminist, which is why I lom it. 586 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 4: Well, it needs to be bigger than me. It is 587 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 4: bigger than me. You know. I've even seen people say 588 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 4: we should change the name. I'm like, and I'm all, 589 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 4: I'm fine with that, you know, because I think if 590 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 4: you just kept it at me, it couldn't reach the 591 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 4: audience that it has. It couldn't help out more than 592 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 4: it'd be like, oh well, the center focus is just 593 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 4: on him. It's like no, No, Let's have healing far 594 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 4: greater than just me, you know, Let's build a community 595 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 4: far wider. I think what's like to what you just said? 596 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 4: You know, the shock is that you'd think that like 597 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 4: good is what unites people. But truly, what it was 598 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 4: is all of Laura's lies of what she claims she 599 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 4: went through that she never did. It's evil united everybody, 600 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 4: and that's what's This is what you what you're seeing 601 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 4: is true evil united a large group of people. And 602 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 4: had she not made those claims, I mean, I don't 603 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 4: think you'd have the level of support and the collective 604 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 4: group that you have. 605 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And it's obvious that you were, you know, 606 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: the Former Bachelor. I think there's a couple of episodes 607 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: where we're having conversations about something and I'm like, I 608 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: cannot believe that this is my job and this is 609 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: what I'm talking to the former Bachelor about because it's 610 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: honestly that wild. But when we brought the podcast to you. 611 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: What was it like for you to see this team 612 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: of producers, this production and be able to trust them. Yeah, 613 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: trust us, I guess with your story. 614 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I have trust issues with entertainment 615 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 4: groups because I've it's a whole conglomerate of people. And 616 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 4: you know, I've also realized for the longest I said, 617 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: you know, I don't trust producers, but really I was 618 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: putting all of that weight on their shoulders because the 619 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 4: further that I got into the mix and understaw all 620 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 4: the players in the game, I realized, you know, the 621 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 4: editors are the ones that really are are just as 622 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 4: equally at fault, at least when it comes to if 623 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 4: I'm placing fault on people that are causing me to 624 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: lack trust. And so, you know, even though we had 625 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 4: a strong connection right away and I trusted you, I 626 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 4: was still like, look, I'm fearful of the editors because 627 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 4: they are behind the scenes. I'm not talking with them, 628 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 4: so they're not getting to know me. So all they 629 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 4: get is they get material fed to them and they go, well, 630 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 4: this is what we have, and we can take this 631 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 4: in this direction or this direction or that direction, and 632 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 4: so even though I was able to lower my guard 633 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 4: with you, it wasn't until the first episode came out 634 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 4: that I was able to actually fully lower my guard 635 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 4: because it was all right, here we go again. I'm 636 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 4: going to press play and there's no going back. So 637 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 4: when I press play, it doesn't matter if I don't 638 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 4: like this. By the end of this podcast, I will 639 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 4: understand what narrative that their space and is it something 640 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 4: that is aligned with me or is it not, because 641 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 4: it doesn't really matter at this point. If it's not 642 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 4: aligned with me, I can't press the rewind button. It's 643 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 4: out there and this is the way they're that they're 644 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: taking it. And I've already signed the documents, so you know, 645 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 4: that's when you write. When you sign on the dotted line, 646 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 4: they tell you have nothing to worry about. You know, 647 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 4: we're going to tell you, tell your story in the 648 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 4: way that you want to be told, and if you're 649 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 4: a good person, that's the way that you'll be perceived. 650 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 4: I was told that verbatim, and then you know, I 651 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 4: watched my show air on The Bachelor, and you know 652 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 4: how talk about really messing me up psychologically because I 653 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 4: went back to that moment I watched The Bachelor, and 654 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 4: I said, but wait, they said, I if I was 655 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 4: a good person, that's the way I'll be perceived. So 656 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 4: am I not a good person? You know that That's 657 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 4: what I had to fight with, and it really, you know, 658 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 4: it really talk about some of that anger. You know, 659 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: I have harbored a lot of anger towards that individual 660 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 4: because I'm like, Woul, did you lie to me? Or 661 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 4: maybe I'm I'm a monster and I don't even realize it. 662 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 4: I lied to myself. So it's it's it's hard. And 663 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: even though you were incredible from the jump until I 664 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 4: press play on episode one, I was really just vulnerable 665 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 4: and thought, I'm honestly, this could be round three or 666 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 4: around at this point round four of you know, of 667 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 4: putting my story out there, and it could be told 668 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 4: in the wrong way. 669 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: And I want you to know from my perspective. And 670 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: Drake and Nintesta, she really cared like she was really 671 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: like and you are you continued to be and you 672 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: never stop. But she always was keeping you in mind. 673 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: And there was this level of also keeping Laura in 674 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: mind too, And in certain ways, it's really hard when 675 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: you're dealing with a lot of flies but we do 676 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: consider the complexity of her stories too, of like, could 677 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: she go back to plan parenthood twice because she wasn't 678 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: ready the first time? Yeah, the reality is she could 679 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: because that's a scary experience. 680 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 3: So it's like a delicate balance of being fair but 681 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 3: also just telling reality. And throughout the whole time, you 682 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 3: were just trying to do right by the story. And 683 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 3: you're the kind of person of like, the truth is 684 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: the truth, and so it was not hard. 685 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean because also too, I'm glad you brought 686 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 4: it up. Look like, beneath the anger or beyond the anger, 687 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 4: Laura's still a human and I think, you know, it's 688 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 4: not for me. It's not about trying to raise me 689 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 4: up and lift me up and then you know, push 690 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 4: her further down. I really want her to heal. I 691 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 4: want her to see a brighter day. And so you know, 692 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 4: it's it's it's it's uncovering and sharing the story and 693 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 4: hopefully you know, being able to find resolution across the board. 694 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 4: You know, I would love to be able to see her, 695 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 4: be able to have her moment where she something strikes 696 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 4: a nerve or opens up her mind and goes wait, 697 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 4: hold on, like something's clearly off here by way of numbers, 698 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 4: the community that has has formed against me. I mean, 699 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 4: maybe I'm in the wrong here, maybe I've been lied to, 700 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 4: maybe I've had wrong the wrong people in my corner. 701 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 4: So again, there's a complexity and and we're not here to, 702 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 4: you know, say here's the good and here's the bad, 703 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 4: as most most TV shows do. There's it's just good bad, 704 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 4: you know, happy, sad, and it's like no, like, this 705 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 4: is about the complexity of the human life and sharing 706 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 4: stories but also being mindful that, like everyone involved in 707 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 4: this is still human, Like, how do we produce an 708 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 4: outcome that is favorable to all long term because it's 709 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 4: not We're not trying to drive someone further down the hole. 710 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 3: It was really Beautify said yeah, because I don't think 711 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 3: we've talked about that, but I do feel like that 712 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 3: was always something that we internally as when we're voicing, 713 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 3: and something that I was saying in episode eight of 714 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 3: like Okay, well as someone that had walked in similar shoes, 715 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 3: I've made these decisions, let's be fair to it. And 716 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 3: it's hard when you know that they're a lie, but 717 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 3: knowing that it could it's still in a different and 718 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: not shame a woman for going back a second time 719 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 3: and that their reality is real. 720 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: So it was a hard it's a hard show. You 721 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 2: guys have done an incredible job. 722 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. 723 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 3: Thank you really balancing all of the lies in reality 724 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 3: so once Yeah. 725 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, Andrea, this has 726 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: been such a wonderful conversation and of course thanks to 727 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: you Clayton. It's been really fun being at south By 728 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: Southwest with iHeart with you guys this weekend. So, Andrea, 729 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: tell us where we can find Betrayal. Yeah, you can 730 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: get it on the iHeartRadio app. You can also subscribe 731 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: through Apple True Crime Plus. You can get it through 732 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: the Apple podcast or wherever you got your podcasts.