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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A stun gun used to

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Speaker 1: subdue two unarmed Kansas moms on their way to pick

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Speaker 1: up children for a birthday party. Stun guns in the

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Speaker 1: last hours. We also learn their cause of death. These

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Speaker 1: two ladies mothers stuffed in an ice chest, buried out

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Speaker 1: in a cow pasture with chunks of hay on top.

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Speaker 1: Now we hear about bloody clothes, stun guns, and duck tape.

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Speaker 1: Good evening, a Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. What in the world the

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Speaker 1: stun guns, bloody clothes, duct tape, ice chests buried in

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Speaker 1: a cow pasture have to do with these two beautiful

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Speaker 1: moms picking up children all the way to a kids

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Speaker 1: birthday party? How could that go so wrong?

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Speaker 2: Listen when Butler and Kelly are nowhere to be seen.

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Speaker 2: When they are due to arrive back in Hugoton, Pastor

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Speaker 2: Heath Kelly and Pastor Tim Singer drive in the direction

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Speaker 2: they believe the women went south of Elkhark, Kansas, just

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Speaker 2: three miles from the women's destination in Eva, Oklahoma. The

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Speaker 2: men see law enforcement surrounding Butler's blue Kia on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road. They learned that Texas County Sheriff's

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Speaker 2: found the car abandoned with no trace of Kelly or Butler.

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Speaker 3: That evidence was a small amount of blood inside the vehicle.

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Speaker 3: The vehicle was found on a dirt path one thousand

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Speaker 3: feet off Oklahoma State Highway ninety five, and near the car,

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Speaker 3: police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude

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Speaker 3: the women were shot before they were abducted.

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Speaker 1: Multiple puddles of blood. I've got an all star panel,

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Speaker 1: but straight out to doctor Kendall Crown's, chief medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: Terrant County, that's fort Worth. Never a lack of business

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Speaker 1: in the morgue there, esteemed lecturer at Burnett School of

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Speaker 1: Medicine at TCU, Doctor Kendall Crowns, I want you to

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Speaker 1: just think back on a couple of cases such as

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Speaker 1: let me just go with Jennifer Dulo's. That's a good example.

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Dulos's body has never been found, but based on

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Speaker 1: the copious amount of blood found in her garage, the

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Speaker 1: menu right then she was dead. So here we come

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Speaker 1: upon the blue vehicle left abandoned on a dirt road

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Speaker 1: and authorities fine copious amounts of blood. It can only

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Speaker 1: mean one thing, Doctor Kendall Crown's how much blood do

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Speaker 1: you have to lose for when you don't have a body,

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Speaker 1: but you know they're dead.

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Speaker 4: So usually when you're looking at large pools of blood,

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Speaker 4: anything that starts to look like a gallon or over

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Speaker 4: a pint, I'd say, once you get near a gallon,

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Speaker 4: you know that person is probably dead because you don't

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Speaker 4: have that much circulating blood in your body. So anytime

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Speaker 4: a large amount is seen, you start assuming that the

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Speaker 4: individual has been murdered. We often will see it in

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Speaker 4: car seats too, because the car seats will soak in

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Speaker 4: a lot of blood with the foam. And again, once

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Speaker 4: you see a lot over a gallon, they're dead.

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Speaker 1: Just looking at these two moms and just exacerbate what

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Speaker 1: I believe a jury is going to hear. The car

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Speaker 1: is found by a couple of preachers. Yes, that's right,

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Speaker 1: one of these ladies is a preacher's wife. Okay, let

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Speaker 1: me understand this. Joining me a net lawless investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for being with us. So I've got

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Speaker 1: two ladies. They don't have guns on them, they don't

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Speaker 1: have knives on them. They're on the way to pick

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Speaker 1: up children to a children's birthday party and one of

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Speaker 1: them is a preacher's wife. Yeah, and they get stun

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Speaker 1: gunned and murdered. How do we know they were stun gunned?

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Speaker 5: Well, we didn't know immediately. I will say that this

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Speaker 5: story when it was initially shared with us by police,

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Speaker 5: the initial message was just these two ladies are missing

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Speaker 5: and we're looking for them. We didn't know that the

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Speaker 5: vehicle was abandoned in this rural part of Oklahoma. We

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Speaker 5: didn't know of the violent crime that had happened. We

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Speaker 5: just knew they were missing, and it was something that really,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it gripped us so hard. But then as

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Speaker 5: we've learned through these different court documents, through the weeks

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Speaker 5: that have passed, every little piece of information is just

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Speaker 5: absolutely shocking.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't think people understand. Let me go

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Speaker 1: to Chris mcdonna. I mean, I would have no reason

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Speaker 1: to understand if I hadn't been there when it happened,

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Speaker 1: what a stun gun really does to you. Chris mcgunna

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Speaker 1: joining me, director a cold case foundation and former homicide

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Speaker 1: detective before that, vice detective now starves own a YouTube channel,

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Speaker 1: The Interview Room. Chris mcdunn explain what a stun gun does.

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Speaker 1: It's bad enough that they're dead, but to think they

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Speaker 1: were tortured before they were killed on the way to

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Speaker 1: a kid's birthday party. What does a stun gun do

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Speaker 1: to a person.

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Speaker 6: You'll initially nancy. What it will do will incapacitate them

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Speaker 6: with a large amount of electricity going through their body,

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Speaker 6: so their muscles, you know, lock up. It Also, individuals

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Speaker 6: aren't able to think appropriately or properly for a brief time,

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Speaker 6: and it gives a perpetrator the opportunity to make their

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Speaker 6: move if in fact they're going to try to control

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Speaker 6: them in any way, shape or form.

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Speaker 1: So the stun gun we now know, causing electrical burns

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Speaker 1: and pain on its victims, incapacitates them. They can't think.

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Speaker 1: It hijacks the communication link between the body and the brain,

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Speaker 1: making it difficult to think or move. Stand up, Sit up.

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Speaker 1: You're totally incapacitated. The working theory is these two ladies

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Speaker 1: were stun gunned and then murdered.

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Speaker 2: Listen documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies

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Speaker 2: of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing

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Speaker 2: en route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends.

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Speaker 2: Investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where

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Speaker 2: Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days

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Speaker 2: of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried fifteen

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Speaker 2: feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed.

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal.

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Speaker 1: I just wonder how a jury is going to react

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Speaker 1: when they find out these two moms, one of them

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Speaker 1: a preacher's wife. And listen, I don't care if you

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Speaker 1: are an escort. I don't care if you're a dope dealer.

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Speaker 1: I don't care if your mother Teresa. What I care

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Speaker 1: about is proving a case where a crime victim has

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Speaker 1: been mistreated. Who the victim is doesn't matter. Lady Justice

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Speaker 1: is wearing a blindfold for a reason. And yes, she

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Speaker 1: has the scales of justice in one hand, but a

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Speaker 1: sword in the other. So when I keep saying preacher's wife,

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Speaker 1: preacher's wife, preacher's wife, I mean doctor Bethany Marshall, renounced

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Speaker 1: psycho analyst joining us from Beverly Hills, author of deal Breaker.

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Speaker 1: You can see her now on Peacock Doctor Bethany, I

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Speaker 1: hope you agree with me. It doesn't matter that she's

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Speaker 1: a preacher's wife or that they were on their way

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Speaker 1: to a children's birthday party. The point I'm making with

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Speaker 1: that is, these aren't two dope dealers who have a

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Speaker 1: turf battle. These aren't two women that have been engaged

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Speaker 1: in felonious activity that somehow got caught up in crossfire.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying these are innocents, and they are stun gunned

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Speaker 1: and murdered and stuffed in ice chests and buried out

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Speaker 1: in a cow passer. You had to have a fore

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Speaker 1: lift a big farm machinery to dig that hole. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these two ladies, what did they ever do wrong? Don't

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Speaker 1: you see the dichotomy here?

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Speaker 7: You know, Nancy, not only are there innocence, but between

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Speaker 7: the two of them, they have six children dependent on them.

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Speaker 7: One of them had four children, the other had two.

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Speaker 7: So this has a ripple effect into their families. Nancy,

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Speaker 7: I don't think those stun guns were just to subdue them.

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Speaker 7: They were to round them up like cattle. This has

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Speaker 7: a feeling like somebody came the whole villagers came after

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Speaker 7: them with pitchfork. Whoever did This had horrendous hatred for one,

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Speaker 7: if not both of these women. And really they had

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Speaker 7: worked themselves to some kind of a frenzy because they

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Speaker 7: could have, you know, subdued and killed them in sort

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Speaker 7: of a soft killed kind of way, but they chose

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Speaker 7: the most difficult route stopping them in their car, hitting

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Speaker 7: them was done, guns knifing them, putting them in a freezer.

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Speaker 7: This was a gruesome scene. This was a mob who

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Speaker 7: really wanted to inflict as much pain as possible on

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Speaker 7: these beautiful innocent women.

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Speaker 1: Joining me renowned trial lawyer defense journey with the Tate

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Speaker 1: group who is located in Savannah, Mark Tate, No offense,

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Speaker 1: But can I ask you something? Mark Tate? Are you

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Speaker 1: with me? Tate?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, no offense, Mark.

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Speaker 1: Tate, But how do you do it? How do you

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Speaker 1: stand up in front of a jury and argue innocence

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Speaker 1: or or ask a judge for a lenient sentence when

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Speaker 1: you've got two mothers stun gun?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Nice, it's stuffed in a freezer and ice chest and

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Speaker 1: buried in a cow pasture.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it's disgusting. The facts that they're going to hear

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Speaker 9: about how these people died are disgusting, and so when

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Speaker 9: you're a trial lawyer and you agree to take someone's case,

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Speaker 9: you have to understand that in this country, which has

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Speaker 9: the greatest criminal justice system on earth, the best one

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Speaker 9: ever designed, that you're presumed innocent and the state has

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Speaker 9: the burden of proof to prove beyond a reasonable doubt

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Speaker 9: that those people who are accused actually did the crime

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Speaker 9: of which they are accused. And so really a trial

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Speaker 9: lawyer can only stand up and hold the state to

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Speaker 9: that level of proof, and that's really all you can do,

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Speaker 9: and you have to take.

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Speaker 1: I didn't ask you to give me a tutorial on cost.

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Speaker 6: Well, sometimes it seems like you might have.

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Speaker 1: You got that at NYU. I'm asking you, how do

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Speaker 1: you do it?

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Speaker 9: Oh, you didn't go to ny you for constitutional law?

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Speaker 1: Makes take a big slug of whatever's in that cup.

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Speaker 9: I didn't ask you about your stainless steel mug. But

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Speaker 9: I'm gonna tell you how do I defend this case?

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Speaker 9: Only on procedural grounds at this point, And what I

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Speaker 9: would say is that these.

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Speaker 1: Women has a bag yours doesn't.

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Speaker 9: Well, I've got to come on a shoe in nantsy

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Speaker 9: grace mine's coffee.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's how they do it. They dance

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Speaker 1: around it. But you know what, let's get back to

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Speaker 1: the facts. Listen.

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Speaker 2: Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cow pasture.

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Speaker 2: Gillian and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with

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Speaker 2: personal items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly.

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Speaker 2: Investigators find bloody clothes, the handle of his saw, as

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Speaker 2: well as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,

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Speaker 2: like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt,

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Speaker 2: a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second

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Speaker 2: pair of Wrangler blue jeans. Other items found at the

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Speaker 2: burial site include duct tape with possible blood, black taser, flashlight,

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Speaker 2: electrical cord, and small black tape, two ragets, drabs, black

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Speaker 2: handle of a saw, and possible blood also found on

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Speaker 2: a black k bar knife in sheet.

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Speaker 1: You know what I love, Chris mcdona, I love duck tape.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel the same way, Chris when you find

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Speaker 1: out there's duck tape at a murder? Saying? I just

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Speaker 1: wonder if we are simpatico?

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Speaker 6: You know, Nancy, this is right. We talk about Lady

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Speaker 6: Justice and the sword. That sword is in place specifically

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Speaker 6: for this type of case. I mean, this is an egregious, horrible,

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Speaker 6: horrific homicide. You have five defendants, and I've never had

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Speaker 6: a five defendant homicide case. I've had three, but number five,

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Speaker 6: So that means you had five people all in sync

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Speaker 6: thinking about how we're going to take out a mother

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Speaker 6: and a preacher's wife and then somehow cover their tracks

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Speaker 6: by leaving all of this evidence on the scene. I

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Speaker 6: either clothing, the knives, all of this other stuff. But

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Speaker 6: think about this, when somebody has murdered this brutally and

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Speaker 6: stuffed into a freezer. A lot of the time, the

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Speaker 6: suspects don't think it's going to go exactly the way

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Speaker 6: it's going to go, and it doesn't. So I'm wondering

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Speaker 6: if they were going to mutilate these bodies. You know,

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Speaker 6: why bring a saw to a crime scene where you're

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Speaker 6: going to bury somebody? Why bring a huge k bar

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Speaker 6: knife to a crime scene where you're going to bury them?

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Speaker 6: So this could have gone as bad as it did,

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Speaker 6: but I think they probably have a lot more on

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Speaker 6: their minds and they just they ran out of time

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Speaker 6: or something happening, you know.

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Speaker 1: Martin Tate, I'm going to speak on McDonald's behalf. I

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Speaker 1: agree with everything he just said. Mark Tate, veteran defense

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Speaker 1: attorney practicing with the Tate Law Group out of Savannah. Tate,

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Speaker 1: I imagine that you duct tape as much as I

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Speaker 1: love it for the very same reason. It's the perfect

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Speaker 1: conduit for fingerprints.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it's an evidence magnet, it's a DNA magnet, it's

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Speaker 9: a hair follicle magnet. But I think that all of

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Speaker 9: those things go to show that these are not professional killers.

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Speaker 9: And I think that when you talk about trying to

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Speaker 9: ameliorate sentences or make them less severe than what they

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Speaker 9: should be. I mean, this is not the you know,

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Speaker 9: this is not Manson murders. These are not those kinds

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Speaker 9: of people. Arguably they're worst, but they're controlled by a

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Speaker 9: similar kind of cult.

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Speaker 1: Quote those kind of people.

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Speaker 2: No, it's not the same thing as different people.

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Speaker 1: It's a different kind of Californians.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, Californians.

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Speaker 8: It's a different kind of cult.

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Speaker 9: I think that motivated all of these people to go

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Speaker 9: after these people.

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Speaker 1: They are a bunch of anti government gun nuts or

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Speaker 1: in the Charles Manson cult. Well, I think you're still butchered.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, they're butchered.

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Speaker 9: It's a horrible case, which you have to take those

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Speaker 9: facts and get the best sentence or a deal you

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Speaker 9: can for your clients. And so if that includes showing

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Speaker 9: that their ability to think rationally had been impaired by

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Speaker 9: their occult memberships with this bizarre religious God's Misfits thing,

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Speaker 9: then a trial lawyer, a defense lawyer has to argue

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Speaker 9: those types of things, and we have to do things

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Speaker 9: like have the trials separated, because you're right, the facts

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Speaker 9: of these murders and the evidence against these people, including

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Speaker 9: the young sixteen year old girl that basically provided the

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Speaker 9: basis of the probable cause, Affidavid, the evidence is really difficult,

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Speaker 9: and the facts of these murders is really hard. And

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Speaker 9: when a jury hears that and they have five people

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Speaker 9: in front of them, they're going to want to convict

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Speaker 9: every single one of them. And so a defense lawyer

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Speaker 9: has to try to separate out these defendants.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories. With Nancy Grace, these two moms want a

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Speaker 1: preacher's wife picking up children on the way to a

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Speaker 1: kid's birthday party or stuff, and then knife dead to

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall joining us for renounced psychoanalyst out of

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Speaker 1: LA She's on Peacock now, doctor Bethany, I'm just a

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer. You are the renowned psychoanalyst. I can't verbalize it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure I have the vocab to do it,

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Speaker 1: do it justice. But I'm telling you, Bethany, that there

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Speaker 1: is a different mindset. It takes a different kind of

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Speaker 1: killer to knife someone, to stab them dead, much less

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Speaker 1: stab than repeatedly, which we've seen over and over. In fact,

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Speaker 1: think about it, Dr Bethany, that's another thought for you

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Speaker 1: and I to explore on our spare time. Very often

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Speaker 1: in knife in cases we see multiple stabs and there's

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Speaker 1: got to be a reason for that. But right now

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about the mindset of

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Speaker 1: a stabber versus a shooter. There's a definite difference in the.

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Speaker 7: Psyche, definitely, Nancy. These perpetrators were boiling over with rage.

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Speaker 7: They did not want to stand on the side of

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Speaker 7: the road and shoot the victims because they wanted to

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Speaker 7: get up close and personal. They wanted to see the

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Speaker 7: fear in these women's eyes. They wanted to inflict as

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Speaker 7: much pain as possible. They wanted to do it practically

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Speaker 7: with their bare hands. In fact, one of the perpetrators

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Speaker 7: actually sliced his hand. He stabbed the victims so many times.

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Speaker 1: You had two.

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Speaker 7: Purpse stabbing two innocent women who were members of their

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Speaker 7: local congregation, one who was married to a pastor, six

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Speaker 7: children between the two of them, And I think the

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Speaker 7: psychology of the knifing is that it is intimate intimate rage.

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Speaker 7: In the intimate rage is that this ragtag homicidal group

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Speaker 7: had been scheming and plotting and just boiling over with

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Speaker 7: hostility towards these two women. These people all had homicidal

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Speaker 7: impulses all of their own, and they banded together.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're seeing a glam shot right there of

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Speaker 1: one of the killers. That's not one of the moms.

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Speaker 1: That is one of the alleged killers. Of course, they're

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Speaker 1: presumed innocent in our country until proven otherwise in court.

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Speaker 1: But I've just got to tell you about how the

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Speaker 1: evidence is stacking up. Listen.

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Speaker 10: Prosecutors now alleged that Paul Grice stabbed Butler to death,

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Speaker 10: slicing his hand in the attack, and Tad Cullums stabbed Kelly.

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Speaker 10: Investigators have not revealed if the women were killed at

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Speaker 10: the same time or one after the other, but only

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Speaker 10: one knife was recovered from the burial site the accessories

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Speaker 10: for that k bar knife found at Tad Cullum's home.

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Speaker 1: A K bar knife. We've heard about that and the

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger case. It is a fixed handle knife like

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Speaker 1: a pocket knife that you can fold over, and very

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Speaker 1: awful when you use a k bar or a knife

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Speaker 1: in general, the killer's hand will actually slide down the

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Speaker 1: knife over, they cross and they will cut themselves. Listen.

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Speaker 11: According to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams boyfriend Tad

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Speaker 11: Cullum is arrested at his home for the murders of

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Speaker 11: Iroonica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grise is present and

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Speaker 11: FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger.

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Speaker 11: Gris tells the agents he cut it while working on

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Speaker 11: his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw

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Speaker 11: Grice March thirty and thirty one with a bandage on

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Speaker 11: his right hand. Gris tells Roberts he cut his hand

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Speaker 11: while cutting fencing.

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel, but right now out

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Speaker 1: to Annette Lawless joining us on the case from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, investigative reporter. So they cut their hands and

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Speaker 1: then during the stabbings.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really amazing to see all the evidence that's

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Speaker 5: come forward, you know, and I've looked at everything from

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Speaker 5: all the court documents, and to hear of how violent

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Speaker 5: everything wast I got, the people accused here had hurt themselves.

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Speaker 5: It's just it's really incredible. I will say, Like, like

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Speaker 5: I mentioned before, when we initially heard about everything in

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Speaker 5: this community, we didn't know a whole lot. But as

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Speaker 5: these documents have come out and revealed, I mean, it

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Speaker 5: just gets grimmer and grimmer.

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Speaker 7: Nancy I am.

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Speaker 5: I'm a little worried about what we're going to discover

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Speaker 5: once we hit trial. So it's just it's really just

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Speaker 5: so scary to think about what these women went through.

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Speaker 5: These women who are just going to go and this

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Speaker 5: was supposed to be a joyous moment for Hernica to

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Speaker 5: go and grab her kids to celebrate a birthday, and

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Speaker 5: ending like this was nothing that any of us had anticipated.

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Speaker 1: So you've got one guy who claims he hurt his

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Speaker 1: hand fencing, is wearing a big bandage, you know, Mark Tate.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it a lot where knife defendants end up

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Speaker 1: slicing themselves. And if you think that's far fetched, just

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Speaker 1: think about how many times you may have cut your

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Speaker 1: own hand or finger just when you're slicing veggies or

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Speaker 1: fruit in the kitchen. It happens all the time. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine in the middle of a double murder. I'm

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Speaker 1: not surprised that all there's allegations they cut themselves.

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Speaker 9: That's consistent. I think the prosecutor's going to harp on it.

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Speaker 9: I think that from the standpoint of someone trying to

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Speaker 9: defend someone's indicted with this kind of evidence, I think

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Speaker 9: a knife wound that they suffer using that particular kind

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Speaker 9: of knife. I believe that piece is maybe called the bolster.

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Speaker 9: I'm not sure exactly, but it doesn't protect the hand

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Speaker 9: from getting injured while you're stabbing somewhere. And I believe

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Speaker 9: that the descriptions we received here today from your folks

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Speaker 9: is that you know, this is a crime of passion

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Speaker 9: when you stab somebody. It is not something that you

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Speaker 9: have to be in a frenzy. I think, for the words,

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Speaker 9: it's not something that's a quick or easy or intended

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Speaker 9: to be a quick or easy death. It's intense, it's

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Speaker 9: up close, it's personal, and so yeah, those types of

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Speaker 9: assailants do have those kinds of wounds that are involved

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Speaker 9: and Again, that's why a defense lawyer who agrees to

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Speaker 9: take on the case has to do things like show

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Speaker 9: why those injuries might exist for some reason other than

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Speaker 9: the use of a k bar knife. It's difficult, but

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Speaker 9: if we're going to undertake as a lawyer to defend

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Speaker 9: these people who have a right to be defended, then

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Speaker 9: sometimes you have to explore each evidence, each piece of

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Speaker 9: evidence and how it's going to come in, and other

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Speaker 9: potential arguments that can be made about why that evidence

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Speaker 9: exists or could be interpreted differently. That's the system. We'd

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Speaker 9: rather see one guilty person go free than one innocent

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Speaker 9: locked up. So you know, it's the thing that we're

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Speaker 9: straddled with or burdened with when we take an oath

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Speaker 9: to the court and to our clients. We have to

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Speaker 9: test the prosecutorial theories and have them really overcome the

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Speaker 9: presumption of innocence. This is a very difficult case to defend,

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Speaker 9: and I don't know if there are enough lawyers out

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Speaker 9: there to take on five different victims, pardon me, five

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Speaker 9: different assailants indicted with this and again it's the testimony

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Speaker 9: of that young sixteen year old child who provided almost

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Speaker 9: all of the investigatorial roots for the Oklahoma Bureau of

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Speaker 9: Investigation to root all of this album.

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Speaker 4: Five people arrested in the disappearance of Veronica Butler and

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Speaker 4: Jillian Kelly, including Butler's.

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Speaker 8: Former mother in law.

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Speaker 1: What is the connection? A few minutes earlier, you heard

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Speaker 1: high profile defense attorney Mark Tate using as some sort

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Speaker 1: of a contorted defense that these aren't professional killers. I

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Speaker 1: doubt the dead people care. I doubt their families care

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Speaker 1: whether they were professional killers or not. But the word

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Speaker 1: idiot comes to mind.

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Speaker 8: Listen, inside the freezer, investigators recover a stun gun, a

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Speaker 8: k bar, knife tape, a black saw handle, and two

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Speaker 8: bloody sets of men's clothing. Prosecutors now say one set

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Speaker 8: of clothes has Paul Grice and Veronica Butler's DNA on them.

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Speaker 8: The other set has traces of Tad Cullum and Jillian Kelly's.

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Speaker 1: You heard a lot of rigormarole about a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure on a sixteen year old girl. It's the only

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Speaker 1: evidence there's DNA evidence. Let me understanding that lawless before

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Speaker 1: I say another word. The bodies are folded up of

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Speaker 1: these two young moms, stuffed into an ice chest, then

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Speaker 1: buried in a cow pasture, and I believe chunks of

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Speaker 1: cement were then put on top. I'm just enunciating each

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Speaker 1: word a nette, so it can really sink in what

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Speaker 1: was done to these ladies. And then in the ice

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Speaker 1: chest here comes the query. There's bloody clothes and other items.

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Speaker 1: But on those bloody clothes is the DNA of Paul Grice,

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Speaker 1: Veronica Butler, Tad Cullum, and Jilly and Kelly. They buried

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Speaker 1: the bloody clothes with their DNA on it. The defendants,

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Speaker 1: the four suspects, their DNA is found with the dead

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Speaker 1: bodies in the ice chist.

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Speaker 5: It's remarkable, it really is to think about that, preserving

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Speaker 5: essentially the evidence that will be used against them. I

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Speaker 5: don't know what they were thinking, and these people accused

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Speaker 5: of what they were thinking of putting this stuff there,

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Speaker 5: I don't know it. It's really remarkable, this whole thing

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Speaker 5: that God's misfits saying of this anti government group and whoa.

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Speaker 1: Whoa, let me get the best back in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the road. I haven't even gotten to the fact

432
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: they call themselves the misfits. That's I would say apropo.

433
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: But you know, to you Chris McDonough you have investigated

434
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: what over three hundred homicides, and then, of course I'm

435
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: not even going to bring up the time years you

436
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: were in vice. But they don't have to be professional killers.

437
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: They don't even have to be smart. And I thank

438
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: God for that because now I've got their DNA. What

439
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: are they thinking? What were they thinking? Because you know

440
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: what somebody like Martin Take might spin out at trial

441
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: that they were framed. That what idiot would have put

442
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: their own DNA in an ice chest with the two

443
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: dead bodies and buried in a cow pasture, that they

444
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: had to have been framed. They would never have done that.

445
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: Oh yes they did.

446
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 12: Chris McDonough, Yeah, and Nancy, you know, if I would

447
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 12: have present a package like this to you for prosecution,

448
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 12: you would absolutely shred these five defendants.

449
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 6: I mean, think about this, every time they made a

450
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 6: move that was specific intent to commit homicide in conjunction

451
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 6: with a conspiracy to do it with four other people.

452
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 6: The fact that they're calling them God's misfits, I wish

453
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 6: they wouldn't even use the Lord's name. They should call

454
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 6: them the Devil's assistance, because that's what this case is.

455
00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 6: And the knife if we go back to the night

456
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 6: just for a minute in the duct tape. Again, each

457
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 6: one of those weapons, like doctor Bethany was talking about,

458
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 6: the knife in of itself, is a control mechanism. It's personal,

459
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 6: it has a blood groove on it. Every time that

460
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 6: knife is utilized, there is a cast off. Who knows

461
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 6: what those investigators have or seen even at that crime scene.

462
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 6: And then the duct tape is just a coup de gral.

463
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 6: If they're not dead, let's wrap them up and put

464
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 6: them in a freezer. My question is were they alive

465
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 6: still bleeding out in that freezer, and if so, that

466
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 6: just even makes this case even much more horrendous.

467
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: Let me understand. Back to and Natt, I understand, we

468
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: keep hearing tidbits about how this was meticulously planned to

469
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: kill these tea moms. Is it true that this group

470
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: actually posted lookouts to alert the killers if law enforcement

471
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: was coming, if another car was coming along the road.

472
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: What do you know about two of the women being

473
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: posted as lookouts?

474
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 5: From my understanding, yes, they did have people who were

475
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 5: looking out for things. They had plans to go and

476
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: commit this crime, to go and kill at least the

477
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 5: plan is to kill Veronica. But that plan didn't go

478
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 5: through exactly how they intended, but those lookouts were there

479
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 5: to make sure that they could go and use those

480
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 5: stun guns so they could go and attack them and

481
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 5: get what they wanted to get rid of them.

482
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: All this why what's the motive?

483
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 13: Locked in a year's long custody battle with the children's father,

484
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 13: The latest court ordered arrangement allows Butler to have supervised

485
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 13: visits with her young children, Cole and Kendall, who live

486
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 13: with their paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams. Butler plans to host

487
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 13: a birthday party for Kendall's sixth birthday, and makes a

488
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 13: forty five minute drive to her hometown of Eva, Oklahoma

489
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 13: to pick them up. Jillian Kelly rides with Butler, acting

490
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 13: as a court approved supervisor for the visit.

491
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: You know, I have known my husband's mother since college,

492
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: and in all those years, not one crossword with mister

493
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: or missus Lyncher, anybody in their whole family. And this

494
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: mother in law arranged meticulous planning, I might add, to

495
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: murder her daughter in law, the mother of her grandchildren.

496
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah her, listen to the degree of detail.

497
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: Cora and Carl Twombley are arrested in the same nineteen

498
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: ninety one Chevrolet pickup truck they allegedly used on their

499
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: mission that ended with Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly Dad.

500
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: Inside the truck, cops find a Taurus three eighty handgun

501
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: with a full magazine of hollowpoint ammunition and a live

502
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: round in the chamber stun guns. Kitty litter used for

503
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: liquid absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos,

504
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: spatial scans, and all other evidence of the crime of murder.

505
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: Chris mc dunnaugh. This meticulous planning to kill these two moms.

506
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: Why kitty litter? Why was that on their to do list?

507
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 6: Kitty litter can be utilized to absorb any kind of liquid,

508
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 6: specifically blood, probably in this situation.

509
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: Nancy, hold on, I need a shrink before I need

510
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: a defense lawyer, Doctor Bethany Marshall. Not only did they

511
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: go and buy all these supplies, These people go and

512
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: they assemble k bar knives and ice chests. They even

513
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: get farm machinery to dig a hole. They think and

514
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: plan and scheme, gnashing their teeth and switching their tails.

515
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: They even get kitty litter to absorb what they know

516
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: will be a surplus of blood and catch this doctor

517
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, granny actually goes to Walmart to buy burner phones.

518
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: You think they don't have video of that. Think Todd

519
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: mom buying push up bras and beers while her daughter

520
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: is quote missing this one. That one right there, goes

521
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: to Walmart to buy burner phones so they can all

522
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: communicate and then get rid of the phones. Dr Bethany

523
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: kitty litter on her phones Walmart.

524
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 7: You know, Grandma had a very strange fixation and obsession

525
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 7: with having total control over her her grandchildren. And you

526
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 7: see in that one picture how little they are, and

527
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 7: it makes me wonder, what is the future. What would

528
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 7: have been the future course of these two children's lives

529
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 7: had they been under this mother's, this grandmother's care, she

530
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 7: would have separated them from everybody, homeschooled them, not wanted

531
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 7: them to have any outside influences. She did not want

532
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 7: to share their love with anybody. But as an overlay,

533
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 7: she had homicidal impulses towards her own, you know, daughter

534
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 7: in law and the kitty litter to soak up the blood.

535
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 7: That just tells me how much she hated this person

536
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 7: and how much she influenced a whole hire group of people.

537
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 7: She whipped up a mob mentality Nancy, And because of that,

538
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 7: I really don't think these two women died quickly. I'm

539
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 7: very sorry to say. I think they were likely chased

540
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 7: around with these taser guns, knifed in a vicious way.

541
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 7: And I agree with the other commentator who said, who

542
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 7: knows if they were even dead when they were buried

543
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 7: in the freezer. I mean, this grandmother was going to

544
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 7: stop at nothing to inflict as much pain, cruelty and suffering.

545
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting. They do not want us or

546
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: anyone else but specifically us to read these search warrants

547
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: and these returns listen.

548
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 11: Accused murderer, Tiffany Adams attorney files emotion to seal warrants

549
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 11: to keep them from public scrutiny, even though law enforcement

550
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 11: agencies generally must make the disposition of warrants available for

551
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 11: public inspection, going so far as to name Nancy Grace

552
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 11: as a reason for keeping the search warrants sealed. The

553
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 11: judge disagrees with the alleged murderer's lawyer and releases the

554
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 11: documents for the public to see.

555
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Kenel joining US Chief Medical Examiner Tyrant County that's

556
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: fort worth. Doctor Crown's. The specter that these women may

557
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: have been alive, still alive and bleeding out when they

558
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: were stuffed in that ice chest is highly disturbing. One,

559
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: how would we know or would we know? And two?

560
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: How long would it have taken them to run out

561
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: of air and mercifully die in the ice chest?

562
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 4: All right? So how would we know if they were

563
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 4: still live in the ice chest? It would be dependent

564
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 4: on if the areas of their body that were hit

565
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 4: with the knife caused them to inhale blood, So you

566
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 4: might see blood in the lungs, which is called hemo aspiration.

567
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 4: If they aren't hitting the lungs. It would depend on

568
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 4: what vessels are hit. If it's kind of superficial or

569
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 4: minor vessels, it's going to take long blood vessels. It's

570
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: going to take longer for you to bleed out from

571
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 4: a smaller vessel. If it's a bigger vessel, you'll bleed

572
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 4: out faster. So let's go with the assumption that they're

573
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 4: alive when they're placed inside the cooler. How long will

574
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 4: they live If it's a large cooler, which I assume

575
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 4: it is. Two women placed inside a large cooler, there

576
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: isn't going to be a lot of extra room for

577
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: air with two people in there, so they'll probably suffocate

578
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 4: under ten to fifteen minutes.

579
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: A bone chilling discovery. OSBI, the FBI, and the Texas

580
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: County Sheriff's Department followed cell phone pings to find a

581
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: horrific scene, a ten foot deep hole eight and a

582
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: half miles from the mom's aband in car, in a

583
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: pasture on leased farmland and near a bridge. Whether the

584
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: two moms were buried alive not yet determined.

585
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: Were the moms buried alive? Again, that specter hanging over

586
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 1: the entire entire proceedings, But listen now.

587
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 14: The four suspects are being kept in the Oklahoma Texas

588
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 14: County jail, but that doesn't mean they will be having contact.

589
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 14: Jewels are being separated in the ninety six bed facility. Currently,

590
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 14: the building houses forty seven inmates, thirty six men and

591
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 14: eleven women in separate sections for each gender. According to

592
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 14: the sheriff, Tadcullum and Cole Twombly are intentionally held on

593
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 14: opposite sides of the men section, separated by four pods.

594
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 14: The women, Adams and Cora Twombly are also separated by

595
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 14: pods ensuring no contact. Only their attorneys and spiritual advisors

596
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 14: are allowed visitation, Family and friends communicate through video calls.

597
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 14: Three good quality meals are provided daily, and the facility

598
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 14: offers inmates the opportunity to purchase snacks, hygiene items, board games,

599
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 14: and office supplies from an online commissary service. There is

600
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 14: no exercise facility, but an indoor cement room with metal

601
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 14: grates on the windows somewhat allows inmates to see outdoors.

602
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: Did you hear that tag? They can have board games, snacks,

603
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: video calls with their family and friends.

604
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 9: Why they're afforded freedoms that people who are not under

605
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 9: indictment are still allowed to have because they're not convicted

606
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 9: yet it sounds terrible to say, we got to give

607
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 9: them three meals a day, and if I were their lawyer,

608
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 9: I would tell them not to spend a whole lot

609
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 9: of time talking to others, whether they be spiritual counselors

610
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 9: or family members, because every single thing they say, of course,

611
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 9: is monitored, and anything they say that's even moderately arguably

612
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 9: incriminatory is going to be used against them. But because

613
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 9: they're not convicted, because they are not felons who have

614
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 9: lost all of their freedoms. At this point, they're still

615
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 9: allowed to have certain levels of treatment. And by the way, Nancy,

616
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 9: you know, even after you're a convict, we have the

617
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 9: notion of cruel and unusual punishment. So even after we

618
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 9: convict these people, we still can't you know, treat them

619
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 9: perhaps the way some would say they should be treated.

620
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 9: Because of the way these victims were treated, I understand

621
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 9: that sympathy.

622
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: I don't want inhumane treatment. No, I don't want that,

623
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: but board games. Really, guys. We found out that, according

624
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: to the newly released documents, that Adams and Callum own

625
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: numerous firearms, a rifle amongst many, but also body armor

626
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: and a quote go bag, A go bag who does that?

627
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: They've been watching way too many movies. Who are these people?

628
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: They are members of something called God's Misfits who hate

629
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: the government, specifically taxes. Listen.

630
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: The OSBI determines the sect of God's Misfits includes Tiffany Adams, Tadcullum,

631
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 2: Paul Grice, Cora Swombley, col Twombley, Barrett Cook, and Lacey Cook,

632
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: and is anti government with a religious affiliation, hosting weekly

633
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: meetings at Twombley's and Cook's residences. The leader of God's

634
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: Misfits is in South Carolina, a man who goes by

635
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: the name Squirrel. He says the murder suspects are not

636
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: affiliated with him or his group, and he has no

637
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: relationship with them. Without equivocation, Squirrel says, the God that

638
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 2: I serve condemned such hate.

639
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: Okay. I had a long talk with Squirrel, and apparently

640
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 1: this sect of God's Misfits was an offshoot of the

641
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: actual God's Misfits. Don't care, don't care. What I do

642
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: care about is this. Listen to this description from our friends.

643
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: Koco needs five of one of these young moms. Her

644
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: kids were her world, Her kids were her life. Everything

645
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: she did was for her kids, to get in a

646
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: pool with them, She'd blow bubbles with them, whatever it was,

647
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: she was there with them. Anett Laula is with me,

648
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: editor and investigative reporter. Annette, what's next for this gang?

649
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 5: In course, a judge had decided that the next steps

650
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 5: for these suspects, they will not be looked at individually.

651
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 5: They're going to group four of them together and then

652
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 5: one and another part of the preliminary hearing. So in

653
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 5: the coming weeks we're going to be looking forward to

654
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 5: the next stages of stuff next month and I think

655
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 5: in December as well, and hopefully everything will come into

656
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 5: trial come next year. I'm very interested to see what

657
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 5: more bits of evidence we're going to find that are

658
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 5: on earth in the next phase. Is because I'm telling you,

659
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: every time they go to court, we just keep hearing

660
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 5: stuff as journalists in this community, and it is jaw

661
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 5: dropping nancy to hear of everything, of how gruesome this

662
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 5: attack was and these people, I mean to think of

663
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 5: everything that was contrived here and the things that they

664
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 5: believed that the suspects thought they could get away with.

665
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 5: It's just it's amazing to even I mean, it's just

666
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 5: I can't believe it, and I think a lot of

667
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 5: people here in the community can't either.

668
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know evidence about this case,

669
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: you may think it's small, you may think it's non consequential,

670
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: but remember the two victims dead in a brutal and

671
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: horrific manner. Please dial toll free eight hundred five two

672
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: to two eight zero one seven, repeat eight hundred five

673
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: two to t eight zero one seven. We wait as

674
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests for being with us,

675
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: and tonight we remember the families of these two slain moms. Goodbye, friend,