WEBVTT - COVID is making martyrs out of mothers

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, we're all parenting in isolation. That is not

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<v Speaker 1>the way that you're supposed to parents. I've spoken to

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of single moms and they are hanging on

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<v Speaker 1>by a thread. And that's literally how one mom put

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<v Speaker 1>it on, hanging on by a thread, like so many

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<v Speaker 1>parents across the country, especially brown parents, I'm in crisis mood.

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<v Speaker 1>If you told me a year ago that my family

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<v Speaker 1>and I would have to transform our lives within a

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<v Speaker 1>matter of weeks, I'm talking remote learning, zoom meetings, hosting

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<v Speaker 1>my news broadcast in a room above my garage. If

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<v Speaker 1>you told me a year ago that motherhood was going

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<v Speaker 1>to get more stressful, harder, and more time consuming, there

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<v Speaker 1>is no way I would have believed you. And I

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<v Speaker 1>say that as a mom with all sorts of support

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<v Speaker 1>and privilege. But the truth is right now, lots and

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<v Speaker 1>lots of parents, specifically moms, are really truly struggling. On

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast, we want to get straight to the point

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<v Speaker 1>and leave you with some time to think. So in

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're talking about what it's really been like

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<v Speaker 1>for moms during COVID and what it reveals about the

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<v Speaker 1>reality of motherhood in America. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor,

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<v Speaker 1>NBC News Senior correspondent, And this is Modern Rules, a

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<v Speaker 1>podcast from NBC Think and I Heart Radio. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>think of many times, at least in my lifetime as

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<v Speaker 1>a mother, that other events have tested us more than

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<v Speaker 1>COVID has. So we're trying to ask the question on

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<v Speaker 1>this episode of Modern Rules, how is this pandemic raising

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<v Speaker 1>the stakes from mom? I want to begin this conversation

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<v Speaker 1>by bringing in a guest. I'm very excited to introduce

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<v Speaker 1>you to Danielle Campamore. She's a contributor to NBC's opinion

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<v Speaker 1>and analysis site Think. She's a mom herself with a

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<v Speaker 1>one year old and a six year old. That's quite

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<v Speaker 1>a split, and in her piece, she looks at how

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<v Speaker 1>moms have responded to this pandemic in a very specific way,

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<v Speaker 1>and that way is drinking. Danielle, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 1>for writing this. Thank you for being here. I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to share with us why you wrote this piece. Really,

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote this piece because it was a personal one

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<v Speaker 1>and I realized how much my drinking had increased as

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<v Speaker 1>a result of the pandemic. My partners and a a central

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<v Speaker 1>worker who works at a Amazon facility out in Staten Island.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was managing my son's school, my one year old.

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<v Speaker 1>I was working, and I was taking care of breakfast, lunch,

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<v Speaker 1>and dinner and managing our home while he was gone.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he's still working twelve hours a day at

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<v Speaker 1>warehouse and having to take his clothes off before he

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<v Speaker 1>even comes in to the house and shower before he

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<v Speaker 1>touches me or the kids. And it got to be

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<v Speaker 1>so overwhelming. My mental health was declining an alarming rate,

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<v Speaker 1>and to cope, I was drinking. And then I was

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<v Speaker 1>drinking more and more and earlier and earlier, and eventually

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<v Speaker 1>looked around was that this is not sustainable, This isn't healthy.

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<v Speaker 1>But right now, when you think about a day in

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<v Speaker 1>our lives during COVID, you're preparing three meals and snacks

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<v Speaker 1>and then figuring out how are you getting to the store.

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<v Speaker 1>You're actually going to school with your child, and you're

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<v Speaker 1>doing your job. So can you just speak to us

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<v Speaker 1>about what that day looks like in order to get

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<v Speaker 1>everything done. You know, you're waking up at four o'clock

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<v Speaker 1>in the morning and trying to start your work day

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<v Speaker 1>before your children wake up, and you have to do

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<v Speaker 1>breakfast and then that's one load of dishes, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and then it's it's zoom, it's zoom meetings for you,

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<v Speaker 1>zoom meetings for your kid changing diapers. There's no one

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<v Speaker 1>except myself to really acknowledge all the work that is

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<v Speaker 1>being done. And I think the thanklessness on top of

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<v Speaker 1>everything else plays a huge role in why moms are

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<v Speaker 1>exhausted and depressed. And then I realized I wasn't alone,

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<v Speaker 1>and so many of my friends who are mothers said

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<v Speaker 1>that they're drinking was increasing. I was seeing that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>talked about on message boards and Facebook groups, and suddenly realized,

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<v Speaker 1>this is something that's happening right under our noses, and

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<v Speaker 1>I mean to talk about it. Can you speak to

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<v Speaker 1>this actual underbelly about this drinking, because it's not celebratory drinking.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a funny ha ha, it's not Oh, this

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<v Speaker 1>is motherhood self care. You know, glass of wine turns

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<v Speaker 1>into a bottle of wine, whoops. It's a real issue

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<v Speaker 1>where moms are drinking and unhealthy ways, at unhealthy levels.

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<v Speaker 1>It's easy for us to say that this is a

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<v Speaker 1>COVID nineteen pandemic problem, but the mommy wine culture has

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<v Speaker 1>been around for a very long time, as has our

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<v Speaker 1>lack of systemic support for moms. In more and more

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<v Speaker 1>American families, both parents work, oftentimes women are the primary breadwinners,

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<v Speaker 1>and then in other families there's only a single parent.

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<v Speaker 1>But the American mom carries the weight of the children

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<v Speaker 1>and put me in the luckiest girl category. I'm racing

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<v Speaker 1>inside to a lunches that they don't want to eat,

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<v Speaker 1>and even if it's the most basic lunch, and and

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<v Speaker 1>an outsider could be like, yo, you just have to

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<v Speaker 1>make your kids lunch. Y know, just making your kids

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<v Speaker 1>lunch still takes thirty five minutes. And so you did

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<v Speaker 1>allows the job at it, you weren't good at work,

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<v Speaker 1>and you just feel like this blows. I thought everything

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<v Speaker 1>was supposed to get better. Exactly that gets reinforced with

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<v Speaker 1>this idea that as moms, we can't complain because this

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<v Speaker 1>is what we signed up for. This is not what

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<v Speaker 1>I signed up for when I became a mother, though

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<v Speaker 1>this was not on the ticket. It was like some

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<v Speaker 1>silence and some independent time where I can focus on

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<v Speaker 1>any other aspect of my life that isn't tied to motherhood.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's an impossible ask right now. So I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know when that will change. My partner considers

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<v Speaker 1>themself to be a feminist. I'm a feminist, and I

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<v Speaker 1>honestly thought that we had a pretty decent division of labor,

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<v Speaker 1>but we didn't, and we had to really base that.

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<v Speaker 1>But it hasn't been and easy, and it's been born

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<v Speaker 1>out of a lot of really tough conversations and us

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<v Speaker 1>really having to face the inequities that were existing prior

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<v Speaker 1>to COVID in our own relationship. We'll be back after

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<v Speaker 1>the break. Everyone has experienced some level of loss, but

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't only exacerbated the fact that those who have more

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<v Speaker 1>it's easier for them to see the silver linings. And

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<v Speaker 1>because many people who can say that are in a

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<v Speaker 1>very privileged situation. Absolutely, I mean that coronavirus was impacting

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<v Speaker 1>black and Latin X community is at higher rates anyways.

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<v Speaker 1>Tack on that with just the huge wage gap between

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<v Speaker 1>black and brown women and white women, tack on the

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<v Speaker 1>majority of essential workers are black and brown people. Even

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<v Speaker 1>in my own experiences as a Puerto Rican woman who's

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<v Speaker 1>extremely white, passing the benefits from that privilege exponentially, I've

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<v Speaker 1>literally stopped and been like, have I not only harmed

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<v Speaker 1>the quality of my life. Have I harmed my career

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<v Speaker 1>to such a point that there's no going back? And

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<v Speaker 1>have I actually harmed my children because I haven't been

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<v Speaker 1>able to set them up the way that affluent white

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<v Speaker 1>parents have been able to set up their kids with

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<v Speaker 1>tutors and child and the nanny and all this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And now, I mean, who knows when this will end?

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<v Speaker 1>Is my one year old soon to be two year

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<v Speaker 1>old going to even know how to interact with other children?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, parents always worry, but the worries that parents

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<v Speaker 1>are facing now it's on a whole another level. There's

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<v Speaker 1>been moments, as much as I love my children, where

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<v Speaker 1>I just think about how healthier I would be mentally

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<v Speaker 1>and physically, um, perhaps how healthier my relationship would be

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<v Speaker 1>if I wasn't totally responsible for the care of two

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<v Speaker 1>human beings. This has been extra complicated because we can't

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<v Speaker 1>rely on friends or neighbors or our moms because the

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<v Speaker 1>health risks. But even the mom's support network is other

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<v Speaker 1>moms were just burying ourselves. Is there somewhere else in

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<v Speaker 1>society they could say, we need to sound the alarm

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<v Speaker 1>if we want our families to thrive some to how

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<v Speaker 1>we hold a motherhood in this country. We have associated

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<v Speaker 1>it with martyrdom. The more you give up, the better

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<v Speaker 1>mom you are. All of these mixed messages that we've

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<v Speaker 1>been forced to choke down as moms since forever I've

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<v Speaker 1>been bubbling him. Now, when that speaks to a lack

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<v Speaker 1>of understanding and tangible gratefulness for motherhood and parenting in general,

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<v Speaker 1>then let's talk about implications. We saw moms taking on homeschooling, housework,

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of job stressed that they hadn't before pre COVID.

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<v Speaker 1>It did feel, at least from a branding perspective, like

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<v Speaker 1>we were closing various gender gaps. Were we actually closing

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<v Speaker 1>the gender gap or were we just putting lipstick on

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<v Speaker 1>this and celebrating big corporate diversity conferences and take your

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<v Speaker 1>kids to work day, But at the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>was never actually getting better. We've never valued the unpaid

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<v Speaker 1>labor of mothers, whether they're working outside the home or

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<v Speaker 1>in the home, working moms worth managing the majority of

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<v Speaker 1>childrearing and household responsibilities prior to COVID, even though more

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<v Speaker 1>of us are working outside the home and now during COVID,

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<v Speaker 1>while we are working and managing even more of the

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<v Speaker 1>child care and responsibilities. Dads are three times more likely

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<v Speaker 1>to actually get promoted during this time than we are.

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<v Speaker 1>Eight hundred and sixty five thousand women were forced out

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<v Speaker 1>of the workforce just last month because we don't have

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<v Speaker 1>access to childcare. We cannot manage both, and so women

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<v Speaker 1>are making the difficult decision. They're choosing their children and

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<v Speaker 1>their families, and they're leaving their careers behind. And this

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<v Speaker 1>is all because we value motherhood insofar as it is martyrdom.

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<v Speaker 1>The more you sacrifice, the better mom you are. Think

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<v Speaker 1>about the way it's even reported women have chosen to

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<v Speaker 1>leave the workforce. How much does affordable child care play

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<v Speaker 1>a role in this? Care is a huge issue. It's

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<v Speaker 1>the reason why we have these non choices and get

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<v Speaker 1>forced out of, you know, our career trajectories and the workforce.

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<v Speaker 1>Just this year, assemblywoman in California was denied the chance

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<v Speaker 1>to vote by proxy, so she brought her newborn to

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<v Speaker 1>the assembly floor to cast a vote, and we covered

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<v Speaker 1>it as look at everything moms can do. Moms are

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<v Speaker 1>so incredible, so strong. No, that was not the story.

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<v Speaker 1>The story was that this was ridiculous and that we

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<v Speaker 1>should have allowed this mother to vote by proxy in

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<v Speaker 1>the middle of a pandemic and not have to bring

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<v Speaker 1>her newborn to work. But we don't treat moms the

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<v Speaker 1>way that they should be treated, which is autonomous human

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<v Speaker 1>beings who have needs and who deserves support. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily a choice to leave the workforce, right when when

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<v Speaker 1>you think about the way corporate structure was designed, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's business or government, it was designed in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that as you moved up the ladder, there was another

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<v Speaker 1>human in your life, a wife, a mother, who took

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<v Speaker 1>care of everything else, and you just had to go

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<v Speaker 1>to work. Moms have said that they don't feel valued.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think it's worse now? If we really valued

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<v Speaker 1>moms here, then we would pay them equal wages for

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<v Speaker 1>equal work, and we'd have mandatory paid family leave, and

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<v Speaker 1>we would have access to affordable childcare, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we would do something about the maternal mortality rate. But

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<v Speaker 1>we do none of those things. Instead, we just give

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<v Speaker 1>moms a patent of back, say oh, you're such a

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<v Speaker 1>good mom for sacrifice and so much. Here's a bottle

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<v Speaker 1>of wine. And that's all that we do for moms.

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<v Speaker 1>Put all of this aside, there is no at least

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<v Speaker 1>for me, I'm going to say, there is no greater

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<v Speaker 1>joy than motherhood. But kind of can you blame a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of millennial women right now who are saying, hold

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<v Speaker 1>on a second, I'm seeing the impact this is having

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<v Speaker 1>on mother's lives, on their careers, on their well being,

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<v Speaker 1>their happiness. Maybe I don't want to have kids. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think that's a momentary thing or that could actually last.

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<v Speaker 1>Pre COVID, you didn't have to look very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>see how little working moms were supporting how difficult it

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<v Speaker 1>is to be a working um. We saw there were

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<v Speaker 1>studies that were showing, you know, the millennial women were

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<v Speaker 1>putting in any plans to have a family on hold

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<v Speaker 1>so that they could establish their careers. I definitely can't

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<v Speaker 1>blame them. Now, then did COVID just show us and

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<v Speaker 1>then that moms were never really valued? That makes me

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<v Speaker 1>personally feel like I've failed, and you know, to be

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<v Speaker 1>quite frank, and I think this is something a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of parents are feeling, and moms particularly but are so

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<v Speaker 1>terrified to say, a lot of moms just don't have

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<v Speaker 1>access to any other type of support that allows them

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<v Speaker 1>to explore other identities other than just being a mom,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is not what motherhood is about. How unhealthy

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<v Speaker 1>is that women? Right now it's outside of their control,

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.120
<v Speaker 1>but they feel like complete failures. Is that what makes

0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.640
<v Speaker 1>you know? Quote this time different in normal times? Like

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 1>the truth is real time parenting is never that fun.

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.719
<v Speaker 1>This is so much more than that because you are

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 1>carrying this weight, right, I mean, it's an elongated period

0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 1>that we don't have an end date for. So we

0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.480
<v Speaker 1>are in crisis mode and in triage mode. I have

0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.160
<v Speaker 1>to worry about the right here and the right now

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:06.960
<v Speaker 1>and how I get from day to day to day.

0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.720
<v Speaker 1>I think that if I was really valued as a mother,

0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:15.520
<v Speaker 1>the shallow congratulatory you're doing great, I can't believe you

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 1>are doing at all. I don't know how you do it.

0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.319
<v Speaker 1>That would all stop, and so how we really do that?

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.960
<v Speaker 1>All the hallmark card congratulations in the world aren't going

0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 1>to make us feel any more valued or any more supported.

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.600
<v Speaker 1>But I also simultaneously do see a light because I

0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.160
<v Speaker 1>was able to write a piece like this. Working mothers,

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.439
<v Speaker 1>mothers who worked in and outside of the home, who

0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.319
<v Speaker 1>are working from home now, as well as other people

0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.200
<v Speaker 1>who aren't moms, are looking around at what is happening

0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.800
<v Speaker 1>and saying this is not right, this is not sustainable,

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.040
<v Speaker 1>this is unhealthy, and we need to change it. So

0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.520
<v Speaker 1>when you write about this, you take the shame away,

0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.320
<v Speaker 1>and I really appreciate you sharing this difficult time in

0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 1>your life, sharing what's happening to so many other moms

0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 1>out there, because it's got to start with a conversation.

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:12.720
<v Speaker 1>M This is such a hugely stressful time for families.

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 1>We can't give a to anything, and we feel like

0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.080
<v Speaker 1>we're failing at everything. We don't know who to turn

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 1>to because everyone's feeling loss. As stressful as this time is,

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 1>the ability to just be in this moment and appreciate

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.560
<v Speaker 1>what we have has never been more clear. In this podcast,

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to get straight to the point and leave

0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.520
<v Speaker 1>you with some time to think. Something Danielle left me

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.000
<v Speaker 1>thinking about is this motherhood, like almost everything else in life,

0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.560
<v Speaker 1>isn't one thing. It's not a bucket you can just

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 1>put someone in and set aside. If we gave moms

0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 1>back a quarter of what they give an unpaid labor,

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.280
<v Speaker 1>what would that look like and what does a more

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 1>sustainable view of parenting and motherhood look like? Tomorrow. If

0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 1>COVID is a mirror, do we really like the vision

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 1>of motherhood that it's showing us? And if we don't,

0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:08.000
<v Speaker 1>what do we want to see instead? Modern Rules is

0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.120
<v Speaker 1>a production of MSNBC and I Heart Radio. The podcast

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.000
<v Speaker 1>is hosted by me Stephanie Rule and executive produced by

0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Mike Fiett and Katrina Norvell. Meredith Bennett Smith is Senior

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 1>editor for NBC Think and our editorial Lead. The podcast

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.040
<v Speaker 1>is engineered and edited by Josh Fisher and special thanks

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.800
<v Speaker 1>to Katherine kim, Our Global head of Digital News. Right

0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 1>here at NBC News and MSNBC