1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. In fact, 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: I am consumed by the whole conundrum of being a 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: child and a parent, the spiritual hurt of absentee parents, 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: the way that parents have complicated lives before having children, 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: the parents one thinks one has, the parents one might 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: wish to have had, The way that family members go 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: missing on each other, And the way, no matter how 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: kindly a family thinks, it is bonded by hardship. Parents 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: and children sometimes become more intimately known by strangers than 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: by one another, and more children don't know their parents 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: or deals. That's rich Benjamin political analyst, cultural anthropologist, speaker, 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: and author of Searching for White Topia, An Improbable Journey 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: into the Heart of White America. We which is is 14 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: a story of silence within a family, the kind of 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: silence that is like a blanket, muffling every potential question, 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: thrown over every curiosity, until there are no more questions. 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: There is no more curiosity. But when an inquisitive child 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: evolves into a deeply thoughtful adult, a journalist, there comes 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: a time when the need to know and understand becomes 20 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: more powerful than the silence itself. I'm Danny Shapiro, and 21 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: this is family secrets, secrets that are kept from us, 22 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 23 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. I grew up mostly in a suburb 24 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: of Washington, d C. Called the Festa Maryland, and it 25 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: was so monochrome that one of the people who went 26 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: to high school years before I did was called Darren 27 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: Starr And who came up with a script called Potomac 28 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: two oh eight five four, which is the suburb I 29 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: grew up with. But Hollywood studio executives didn't want it 30 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: to be about Maryland, and so he changed his script 31 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: and he called it Beverly Hills nine to one oh. 32 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: So that gives the kind of sense of where I 33 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: grew up and how I grew up a suburb of Washington, 34 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: d C. But we also moved around quite a bit 35 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: because of where my father's work took me. I have 36 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: a twin sister, an older sister, and an older brother 37 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: in my twin and I we are the youngest in 38 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: the family. What was your mother like the mother of 39 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: your childhood? The mother of my childhood was very fierce 40 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: and determined. She was stern. My friends at the time 41 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: were required to call her Mrs Benjamin. And sometimes if 42 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: you asked her something and you replied, you didn't just 43 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: say yes, because then she would quit yes dog, cat monkey, 44 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: and that was your cue to say yes mom or 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: yes mother. So that being said, she had to be 46 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: attentive to me because I had a blood disorder called 47 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: sickle cell anemia, so we spent a lot of time 48 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: going to the doctor together. A lot of conversations were had, 49 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: but also a lot of silences. Even though we'd spent 50 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot of time going to medical doctors, there were 51 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: no exact stories at all ever told about her past 52 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: when I was in grade school and when we commuted 53 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: to the blood doctors together. But there was a fierceness 54 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: I remember of her protectiveness to me, the way she 55 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: wanted me to be batt already, the way I always 56 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: fell uh survivor mentality in her, and I couldn't understand 57 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: what it was or why it is. I just assumed 58 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: it was medical that she wanted me to survive this 59 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: blood disorder because when I was born, one and four 60 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: children would not survive this disease, and the life expectancy 61 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: for me at the time would have been forty years old. 62 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: If I were lucky. How long was that period of 63 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: time of that kind of fear about your health? How 64 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: long did that last? It lasts to this day, but 65 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, it's lasting in my childhood. 66 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: It's kind of really creeping up into every dynamic of 67 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: our relationship. And sometimes if I don't return my mother's 68 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: call soon enough, or if she suspects something in my voice, 69 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: such as she suspects I might have an infection, it 70 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: returns me to that six year old self where my 71 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: mother is saying, what did you do to deserve to 72 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: be sick? Or oh, my goodness, are you really calling 73 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: me from an emergency room and not letting me know. 74 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: I remember, as a full grown at all, I went 75 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: hiking in Montana and I caught walking pneumonia and with 76 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: they also the altitude of the high kick. It kind 77 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: of triggered this medical crisis. And then my mother and 78 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: I are having the same conversations and dynamic that we 79 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: had when I was a young boy. Just lives inside 80 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: the relationship lives inside both of you. And tell me 81 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: about your father, the father of your childhood, the father 82 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: of my childhood was very breezy, very effusive. People loved him. 83 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: People wanted to spend time around him. He worked extremely hard, 84 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: it was extremely generous. He was ebulent, and we often 85 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: joked that if you wanted something, you went to my 86 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: father and not my mother, because if you went to 87 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: my mother, you'd get a stern no, but if you 88 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: went to my father, you get a yes. And this 89 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: pertains to our dogs spending antica, and it pertains to 90 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: one thing. And my mother always scolded my father for 91 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: being impractical as she saw it. I mean, one time 92 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: he returned and it's a Saturday afternoon and there's a 93 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: scold Lexus in the drive way and all the kids, 94 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: needless to say, are enamored by it, and we're jumping 95 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: and hooting around this car. And my mother was furious 96 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: and she gave my father a dressing down. You know, 97 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: why do you borry this car o on a whim? 98 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: You know we're going to be suffering for this if So, 99 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: there was that dynamic. And also the final thing I'll 100 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: say is my father tended to have the better taste. 101 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: He was the more humanistic and the more creative, and 102 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: so he was often delegated with kind of decorating our 103 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: houses and that kind of thing. Partly they came from 104 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: similar backgrounds in the sense that they both grew up 105 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: with so many siblings seven and eight apiece. Um. They 106 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: both grew up under very ethically honest parents who wouldn't 107 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: steal a penny. They both grew up under stern, hard 108 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: working parents. So the irony is they had very similar 109 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: backgrounds growing up in these sort of uh nuclear families 110 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: of multiple children with hard working and effective and successful 111 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: parents in their own worlds. But they had very, very, 112 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: very different personalities. And I think my father had more 113 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: stability growing up. My mother's had more instability growing up 114 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: with all the political turmoil surrounding her family's home. One 115 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: thing Rich does know about his mother's family history as 116 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: he grows up is that she came to the US 117 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: from Haiti when she was thirteen, But this fact is 118 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: shrouded in mystery. It's never spoken about. He doesn't know 119 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: any specifics about this journey. I couldn't have told you 120 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: whether they came on a boat or raft a plane. 121 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: I assume it was a plane. But I couldn't have 122 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: told you when they left. I couldn't have told you 123 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: precisely why they left. I couldn't have told you what 124 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: their mood or their fears or their anxieties were when 125 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: they left. I couldn't have told you what happened when 126 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: they landed. I literally didn't have a detail to tell you. 127 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: When you say they, who's they? They is my mother 128 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: and her younger siblings who all came together. But it 129 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: also applies to her parents, Daniel and Carmen. I couldn't 130 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: tell you the circumstances and the details of how her 131 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: parents arrived to America in ninety seven. Either when was 132 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: the first time that you felt in any way curious 133 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: or that you registered the absence of the stories, you know, 134 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: the stories that weren't being told. That's funny looking back. Subconsciously, 135 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: that I was not being told these stories was registering 136 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: because I was hearing from classmates, you know, in high school. 137 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: They would say, oh, my ancestors came from Ireland during 138 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: the potato famine, or oh, you know, my ancestors came 139 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: from Ukraine during the programs, you know, at the turn 140 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: of the last century. So it began to register subconsciously 141 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: that this was a secret and that it was not 142 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: being talked about. But I never pressed it more. And 143 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: also I would say when I graduated from high school 144 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: and people's grandparents turned up, you know, with their white 145 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: hair and their sweater sets in their cardigans and that 146 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Or when I would see a grandfather 147 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: in a Christmas commercial, it would register to me that 148 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: way a second, Uh, where's your grandfather? But in those 149 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: kind of subconscious and subtle ways it registered to me 150 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: growing up, and then it really hit me only as 151 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: an adult, like many kids who have grown up in 152 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: strict homes. In riches home, there's no cursing, no dating, 153 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: no smoking, no drinking. So when it comes time for college, 154 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: he flees to Wesleyan University, an ideal environment in that 155 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: it's intellectually rigorous and also a hard party school. Rich 156 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: loves it there, and upon graduation he moves to New 157 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: York City, hungry for more. It was a similar trajectory 158 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: in similar circumstances, where there was a fever in me 159 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: and I'm running from my past, I'm running from strictness. 160 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: I'm running from just kind of a mi las I 161 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: couldn't put my finger on. And the same story. I 162 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: came to the village, I read seriously, I did culture seriously, 163 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: but I partied my face off around this time as 164 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: we're just coming to really know himself in that early 165 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: twenties kind of way, his family still doesn't fully know him. 166 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: There are more secrets I never formally came out. They 167 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: were clues. So for one example, you know, gay men 168 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: were getting what we call a Caesar haircut, you know, 169 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: dusty sprinkles of hair on your head. My mother saw 170 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: this haircut and she shrieked, she hated, and she's like, 171 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: are you gay? And at that time, I must have 172 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: been seventeen, I denied it, but I think word cut 173 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: to her. And there's a point at which a mother 174 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: knows would be someone in my family told her, and 175 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: I would say that would probably be when I graduated 176 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: from college. But it was never discussed. Never. It's so 177 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: interesting when secrets are kind of baked in, when they're 178 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: just part of what you know, the air that you breathe, 179 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: They're part of the dynamic of a family. There's never 180 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: just one of them, right, there's just all these silences 181 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: and all these ways in which people don't talk to 182 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: each other. Yes, and that was the case on her, 183 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: and it was only as an adult. I'm beginning to think, well, 184 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: if her childhood is a secret, what other secrets are 185 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,479 Speaker 1: kept on that end. And if, as you said, secrecy 186 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: is the culture of the family, they were just all around. 187 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Secrecy and silence build up so 188 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: much pressure, and that pressure has to go somewhere, right, 189 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: Hard partying can be its own pressure release valve when 190 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: it all feels like too much to handle. For many 191 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: of us raised in secrecy and silence, we want a 192 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: quick fix, a release from holding all that is unexpressed. 193 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: In the East Village, rich immerses himself in the club 194 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: scene and surrounds himself with running buddies who aren't too inquisitive. 195 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: It was so raucous, Danny, because on the one hand, 196 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: the parting was so anonymous. You never wanted to be 197 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: surrounded by people who asked too much questions because that 198 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: invaded your privacy. In it kind of punctured the air 199 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: of secrecy that you were that I was containing. But 200 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: at the same time it still managed a form of 201 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: intimacy where you saw people kind of doing crazy things 202 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: at vulnerable moments, you know, and by vulnerable I mean 203 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: drug related vulnerable moments, vulnerable sexual moments, And so that 204 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: was the ideal party, Buddy, is this air of anonymity, 205 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: people who don't ask to any questions. But also there 206 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: was a level of intimacy, people you could trust to 207 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: also not devulge your secrets. And some people describe the 208 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: East Village at that time as a kind of queer 209 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: Heyday because by that time, you know, the police or 210 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: city forces weren't enforcing strict nuisance laws or imbibing laws, 211 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: and it was just rampant with nudity, with drugs, with sexuality, 212 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: with fantastic DJs. And we didn't know what was going 213 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: on at the time, you know, we were just like 214 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: ratty libertine kids, ingesting our drugs and just carrying on. 215 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: And it was an age before Instagram and Facebook and 216 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: now the myth is, you know, to put yourself out 217 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: in the public to have followers, to be seen. At 218 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: the time was the reverse. It was the more private, 219 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: the more exclusive, the more unseen you were a the 220 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: better the partying and the more caschet you had. And 221 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: so we partied for each other. We partied for the moment. 222 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: We didn't party to have followers, and this contributed to 223 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: the success of the Secret. The gay rights movement has 224 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: changed so much, but at the time it was shameful. 225 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it was shameful at work, it was shameful 226 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: among families. It was you know, there was just so 227 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: much shame in your tide and associated to this quote 228 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: unquote shameful disease that is consuming a community. And so 229 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, it was a very different culture of shame 230 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: back then, the late nineties in the East Village or 231 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: an immersive whirlwind for Rich he's consuming culture along with drugs. 232 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: He's writing, he's finding the truest version of himself. Meanwhile, 233 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: the truth of his ancestors and his family history is 234 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: still obscured. Even at that time, the ancestry and my 235 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: mother's story coming here was deeply secret. I did not 236 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: give it a thought, nor did relatives tell me during 237 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: all those years in the East Village of what was 238 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: going on. And there's a funny incident. I remember a 239 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: cab driver looking at me and asking are you Haitian? 240 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: And I just worded no, because in my mind that 241 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: was so secret and it was just so undiscussed. I 242 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: think there's a deep part of me that didn't even 243 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: think I was Haitian years past, and which is a 244 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: lot less interested in partying. He considers himself more of 245 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: an adult. He has a great job, and he's published 246 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: a book. This is also the year his life is 247 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: forever changed in the worst recorded earthquake in the Western 248 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: hemispheres history. It's Haiti. So By I'm working in a 249 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: serious think tank, I had just launched a book that 250 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: had done well, and leaving the think tank. One night 251 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: I caught glimpse of the news and I remember vividly 252 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: was Anderson Cooper on the Plasmas green hanging in the lobby. 253 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: And then I'm hearing Hadi, I'm hearing had on the 254 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: screen crawl and I'm seeing, you know, things going on 255 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: in Haiti. And my body clenches because as an American, 256 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: any time Haiti has mentioned, it's in the context of catastrophe. 257 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: But this felt absolutely devastating, and I could not take 258 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: my eyes off the news for the next ten days. 259 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: And watching it, all the suffering people, all the faces 260 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: peering at me from the television, from the internet, It's like, 261 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: what is going to be our witness? Who will be 262 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: our witness? And the one indelible image that spoke to 263 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: my family history, the images of Haitians suffering, that's just 264 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: spoke to me as a human being but an indelible 265 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: image flashed across the screen, and that was the huge 266 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: damage suffered by Hate's presidential palace. And it's just, you know, 267 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: the quote unquote seat of power of that country could 268 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: not protect itself. It was just a crumpled building and dust. 269 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: And then that's when it was very strange. Danding is 270 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: just this sort of denial, this cloud of secrecy, this shame, 271 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: this all of it just kind of busted open, and 272 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is untenable. You know, I have to 273 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: find out what's going on. I had known as a 274 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: fact that my mother's father had been the president of Haiti. 275 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: But it's that knowing that fact being told to me 276 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: by a stranger, for example, Knowing that, you know, as 277 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: a historical factor, is a political factor. Knowing that from 278 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: a stranger, you know, you can't avoid that. Knowing that 279 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: it is very different than knowing why he came, what 280 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: his tenure was, like, what impact it had on my mother, 281 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: how it shaped her as a human being, how he 282 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: shaped her as a human being. That's what I meant 283 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 1: by you know, all all these dark intangibles that were 284 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: unknown to me, but the fact itself I had known, 285 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: And do you remember how you knew that fact. Well, 286 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: I think a cousin might have, you know, mentioned it pridefully, oh, 287 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: our grandfather was president of Haiti, Or for example, my 288 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: mother's own aunt, who was a witty woman, might have 289 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: made a sarcastic remark of, oh, you know, that man 290 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: was deranged by his politics in reference to my mother's father. 291 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: So the fact of it would slip out either as 292 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: a tart remark or as a point of pride in 293 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: those kinds of ways. But everything that surrounds that fact 294 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: was kept a secret when you were growing up and 295 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: having that one fact, but then all this silence around it. 296 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm even more interested in that because it's like there's 297 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: the mythology or the easy mythologizing of, you know, the 298 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: idea that grandparent was the president of a country, right, 299 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: and then yet nothing is known and nothing is spoken 300 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: of about that person exactly. It's very kind of bizarre. 301 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have a fact that one 302 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: would think generates a lot of pride, and I think 303 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: for some cousins or aunts it did generate a lot 304 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: of pride. But the fact that it's not discussed that 305 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: made me curious, especially in the context of that earthquake 306 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: and seeing that palace destroyed. Seeing the destroyed palace made 307 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: the secret more visually real. It made him in his life, 308 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: and more importantly, my grandmother's life more visually real. My grandmother, 309 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: which is to say, my grandfather's wife, who I grew 310 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: up knowing. I was extremely fond of her. She was 311 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: such a poised, kind woman, and people who describe her 312 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: after the facts say that when you were in her presence, 313 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: you had the sense that you were in the presence 314 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: of someone substantial, not someone who is arrogant and important, 315 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: but someone of substance and character. So I grew up 316 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: with her. And even though she could be funny and 317 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: say these hilarious you know things about x y Z 318 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: when she was no nun or schoolmarm. She smoked, she drank, 319 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: but at the same time there was a melancholy lingering 320 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: to her. You know, there's like a sadness around her. 321 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: And I had no idea what it was or why, 322 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: or who she had been married to, you know. And 323 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: she spent substantial amounts of time in her home. She 324 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: succumb for Thanksgiving, she succumbed to Potomac for many Christmas Is. 325 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: She used to send birthday cars. But you know, how 326 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: did she get in America? And she spoke with an accent, 327 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: so clearly she wasn't a native born American. And so 328 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: the presidential palace destroyed in the news also made me 329 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: think of my grandmother who had died by then. Did 330 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, growing up and being close to her, where 331 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: your grandfather was or whether they were still together or 332 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: had he died or what was the story that you 333 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: knew if any uh, nothing, nothing. Isn't that bizarre? And 334 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. Most grandparents come in sets, or 335 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: they come with an explanation. This couple has been divorced 336 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: in some kind of you know, backstory as to why 337 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: they're divorced. But here I have this single grandmother with 338 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: no context as to where her husband is, why he is, 339 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: where he is, when they got divorced, and all of that. 340 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 341 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: As Rich stands watching the news on that plasma screen, 342 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: as he remains glued to the television for the next 343 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: stretch of days, he's stricken by the image of the 344 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: destroyed Presidential Palace and becomes determined to know more about 345 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: his grandfather his determination is visceral and immediate. He embarks 346 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: on a research expedition, an expedition into the depths of 347 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: his own family history. So the earthquake happens in January, 348 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: and by June, I'm dropping hands and I'm telling my family, 349 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: I e. My siblings and my mother that I intend 350 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: to go to hate And part of my intention was 351 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: to volunteer my time. And that's just independent of this story, 352 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: because I know people are volunteing uh their time for 353 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: different catastrophies around the world. So that was one intention. 354 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: Another intention was I will go find this story, and 355 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: so I start to tell them in June, and by 356 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: November I'm on the plane. What was it like for 357 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: you landing in Haiti for the first time? It was discombobulating. 358 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: I think for any American it's totally disorienting to land 359 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: in Haiti at that moment, because in November of that 360 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: year of the capital Port of Prince was still in rubble. 361 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: In other words, you're driving through the capitol and you 362 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: just see rubble everywhere, and the whole it's just prevalent 363 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: all over. There's also the fact that it was in 364 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: the midst of a cholera epidemic, just an awful, deadly 365 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: color epidemic. And also it was in the midst of 366 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: a presidential election. So I land there and it's kind 367 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: of a whiplash feeling of a landing in the midst 368 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: of quite a bit of tumult and turmoil. Also landing 369 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: and just feeling a sense of knowing nous And I 370 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: say knowing this because when the Haitian women, when I 371 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: hear them in border prints, I hear my grandmother's voice, 372 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: I hear my aunt Ji Jean's voice, and I hear 373 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: my mother's voice, and just the culture kind of envelived me. 374 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: And there was an immediate I would call it familiarity 375 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: landing in there. So that's the whiplash. It was very distant, 376 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: but it would be for anybody given what was going 377 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: on politically in the country. But it felt instantly familiar. 378 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: While you were there, what were you hoping to find 379 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: and what did you find? So I was hoping to 380 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: find artifacts of my grandfather that might be in the 381 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: National Archive in the Capitol, such as video footage of 382 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: his inauguration, such as his KAI clip, such as some 383 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: of his books. I was expecting to find that because 384 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: speaking to scholars in the US. I was able to 385 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: get what they call a manifest of what the archive contains, 386 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: and the archives in Haiti supposedly contains some of his belongings. 387 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: I was hoping to find that. I was hoping to 388 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: go through original newspapers to learn more about his life, 389 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: to learn about how he lived, about his domestic life, 390 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: hoping to find all of that. But a monkey ranch 391 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: was that the archives, the national Archives of Haiti, were 392 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: destroyed and I would say debilitated by the earthquake as well. 393 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: And so when I show up to the archive, it's 394 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: also looking like a construction site, like many buildings in 395 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: the country. So that's what I was hoping to find. Thankfully, 396 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: I was able to locate some people who had worked 397 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: for my grandfather in the nineteen fifties. I was able 398 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: to find some of his political associates. But also I 399 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: was just hoping to get a general sense of Haiti 400 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 1: itself and what had this man been involved in. You know, 401 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: what's this country like. Did you feel at that point 402 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: like you were beginning to piece him together for yourself 403 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: a little bit? I did, because he was such a 404 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: Haitian figure, and I mean that he was such a 405 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: pop the list. He was such a literal man of 406 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: the country, of the people. That was his platform. And 407 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: so what I one lesson I gleaned was I could 408 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: never understand him or my mother or their secrets unless 409 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: I had some sense of the country. Once the earthquake happens, 410 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: my mother softens to telling this story. She resigns herself 411 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: to the fact that I'm going to hate you to 412 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: tell a story I should mention. My mother is also 413 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: a scholar and a social scientist, so half of her 414 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: is thinking, this is good. Finally, what this man did, 415 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: where he stood in this country's history, is good that 416 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: someone is finally writing about him. As she ages, I 417 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: think the social scientists and intellectual and my mother really 418 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: liked the fact that I would write about him. But 419 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: the mother in my mother, I think she's a bit mortified. 420 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: What I would discover, what I might publish, what I 421 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: would find, how I would find it, how it would 422 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: make me look, how it makes would make her look, 423 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: how it would make him look. And by that I 424 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: mean I don't think she wants me to make him 425 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: look that good in the personal context. In other words, 426 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: she's proud of what achieved publicly, but I once remember 427 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: her saying something really blurting, something really tart, about that 428 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: man was no angel, and don't you dare do a 429 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: hang geography? And she was talking about his personal aspect. 430 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: Did she open up to you at all about her 431 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: own experience? Yes, not entirely. This happens over months and 432 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: years and grips and drafts, and it's not like you 433 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: ever sit down for an interview and you get everything 434 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: you need. The information comes just when you're not expecting it, 435 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: just when you're not explicitly having the conversation about that, 436 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: it comes outsideways. And so yes, over the years she 437 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: softened and I was able to get more information, starting 438 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: to put the pieces together of the Storian, so much 439 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: that you didn't know. I know it's ongoing, but what 440 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: did that feel like? And what does that feel like? 441 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: To be honest, it's comical and it's infuriating, and it's 442 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: comical because by now I tell the family very clearly, 443 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm writing a book about us in the past, and 444 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: people shut down, They refused to talk, They refused by 445 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: an email and interview. And there are times where my 446 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: mother is perfectly willing to have the conversation, and there's 447 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: times when she's not most you not. And the comical 448 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: part is, like in my real word quote unquote, like 449 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: I went to the Bush White House and I told 450 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: the chief of staff and the chief political director, if 451 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: you don't grant me a fucking interview, this, this, and 452 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: this is going to happen. And this is how you 453 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: score an interview in your real working life as a writer. 454 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: But you can't subject your family to that, especially when 455 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about you know, sixty and seventy year old aunties. 456 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: You're talking about your mother who you know you're close to. 457 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: And so that's the comical part, is you know in 458 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: your real life who you're able to get to speak 459 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: to you versus your family members. And the sad part, though, 460 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: is the people are getting sick, people die off, and 461 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: I feel the story slipping from me a because of 462 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: the natural disaster, but just be people's memory. And so 463 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: that's that was the sadness to me, and that is 464 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: also what made this project more urgent to me. And 465 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: I remember my last couple of days in Haiti, the 466 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: government there put the country on lockdown and so all 467 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: flights were indefinitely canceled, and so every day I'd show 468 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: up to the airport. Can I fly out today? Can 469 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: I not fly out because of the political and unrest? 470 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: But finally, when I do get out, it's December of 471 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: that year of the earthquake, and I think, let me 472 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: go look for this man in the archives. Because his 473 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: life takes place during the Cold War, let me imagine 474 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: that perhaps the US has operatives in port of Prince. 475 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: So I go to the National Archives in Washington, and 476 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: I have modest expectations of what I'd find, perhaps a 477 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: memo here, a letter there. But when I'm searching the 478 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: cavernor's basement, I hit a gold mine, and I hit 479 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: hundreds of pages of memos which were classified in secret 480 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: at the time of the U. S. Government surveying him, 481 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: his speeches, his writing, even his day to day activities. 482 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: So I did not expect to find that. But how 483 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: many pages are we talking? It sounds like a book. 484 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: It's like a book. What did that feel like, both 485 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: discovering it and then going through it and parsing it. 486 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: It seems like that would be the closest that you 487 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: would ever be able to come to knowing him. Yes, indeed, 488 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: as a scholar and a writer is exhilarating you know, 489 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: when you make that fine, As the grandson of this man, 490 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: part of me is mortified. You know, it's an invasion 491 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: of privacy, it's an invasion of civil liberty, and it's 492 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: partly a form of violence that he suffered when he 493 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: was ejected from his own country. As you were interrogating 494 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: all this, as you were digging in, as you were 495 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: trying with you know, sort of every skill you have 496 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: to put him together, you know, to breathe life into 497 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: him to know him. Was there anything you were afraid 498 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: you were going to find out? Where? Was there anything 499 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: you were hoping you were going to find out? There 500 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: was nothing I was afraid to find. And I was 501 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: hoping to find just his story leading up to his 502 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: oust from his presidency, but also his exile from Haiti 503 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: and into America. I was just hoping to understand how 504 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: and why that went down. It's during this period of 505 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: interrogation that rich finally is able to flesh out the 506 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: story of his mother's arrival to America when she was thirteen, 507 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: had happened in ninety seven, the same year his grandfather 508 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: was ousted and their family was ordered to leave Haiti. 509 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: Had he not been ousted, had he been able to 510 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: weather the political storm, the entire trajectory of which his 511 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: life and the lives of countless others would have been 512 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: monumentally changed. I thought about that when I saw the 513 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: presidential Palace destroyed, and I thought about that when I 514 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: left for Haiti. And here's another secret, Denny. When my 515 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: grandfather was ousted, his rival Papa Duck du Valier, who 516 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: went on to become one of the worst dictators and 517 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: by that I mean one of the bloodiest dictators in 518 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: the history of the Western Hemisphere, took power from that 519 00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: time in seven when the dictatorship of Duvalier took place, 520 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: and then he passed his dictatorship onto his son, which 521 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 1: lasted another generation until had he never recovered from that. 522 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: And so this quick period when this happened really cast 523 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: a long shadow. And for me, that's the darkness of it. 524 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: And do you think that that's a part of what 525 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: the secret keeping in your family as you were growing 526 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: up was about, was that it was just so painful, Um, 527 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: you know what happened, and then what happened to the country, 528 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: you know following um Papa doc coming into power. I 529 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: mean that it just was something so impossible, so unspeakable 530 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: that it couldn't be spoken of. Yes, yes, absolutely, it 531 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: was both so personally, so publicly, and so historically unspeed 532 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: couple that, I think that pushed the secrecy further into 533 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: the closet. And I should mention my grandfather had one brother. 534 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: That brother's children, under due Valier's regime, we're always cast 535 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: into shadows. Every time they saw a police force. Every 536 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: time they saw a police person, they would turn the 537 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: corner wondering whether they would be arrested or even killed 538 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: merely by being a relative of my grandfather. When my 539 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: grandfather was exiled and in duval to power, it became 540 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: illegal to speak my grandfather's name in public, to print 541 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: anything about him. So he himself, you know, became a 542 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: secret and cast under shadow. So yeah, I think part 543 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: of a layer of the secrecy is just the sorrow, 544 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: the darkness, the danger of people who are living under 545 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: a dictatorship and being associated to du Valier's rival when 546 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: du Valley took power. So now that you've been at 547 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: this for more than ten years and thinking so deeply 548 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: about all of this and you know, living it, living 549 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: with it, and attempting to have the conversations that you 550 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: can have with the people who are willing to talk. 551 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: Where does it leave you in terms of thinking about secrets. Gosh, 552 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: it's such a big question. I'm just left with the 553 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: damage that secrets cause, and I guess I'll start at 554 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: the intimate level and then work my way more broadly. 555 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: At the intimate level, for me, let's see, received done 556 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: have often chipped away or sabotaged my ability to have 557 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: an intimate life, mostly with romantic partners, but also with 558 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: my mother to some extent, and secrets with a family. 559 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you put this so beautifully earlier, the way 560 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: that there's never just one secret, so that if a 561 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: family member suffers from mental illness or a drug addiction, 562 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: or you know, an abusive relationship, which is not uncommon 563 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: on my mother's side of the family, then secrets really, 564 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, harm those already difficult episodes and they make 565 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: them worse. So for me, that's what I'm left with. 566 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: Secrets on the intimate level. On the public level, I've 567 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: been thinking about this more broadly. Sometimes or often will 568 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: see a disaster in a country, and let's say Haiti, 569 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: because it's the country we're talking about, and people have 570 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: in amnesia, and people have this cluelessness about what they're 571 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: seeing in the news. And because things have been secret 572 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: and because certain people get to write history, there's no 573 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: context to understand why a country finds itself in the 574 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: predicaments it does. And to me, this is maddening. You know, 575 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: this story that hasn't been told, all the stories of 576 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: countries around the world that are not told, that are suppressed, 577 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: whether by you know, literally the CIA, or corporate forces 578 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: or political forces or own bad actors in those very countries. 579 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: It leaves us with all this misinformation, this gap of knowledge, 580 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: and then when things happen in the country finds itself 581 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: in a crisis, you know, we scratch our heads and 582 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: this is absurd. And it happened when the president of 583 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: Haiti was assassinated and journalists descend on the country and 584 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: they say, oh, why is Hati such a mess? What's 585 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: going on in Haiti? What happened after the earthquake? And 586 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: there's no context for this long, secretive history. So that's 587 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: what Secrets have left being with family. Secrets is a 588 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Molly z a Core is 589 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 590 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share. 591 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: Please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 592 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight Secret zero. 593 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: That's the number zero. You can also find me on 594 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: Instagram at Danny writer. And if you'd like to know 595 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,839 Speaker 1: more about the story that inspired this podcast, check out 596 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 597 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 598 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.