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Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kosova. We're taking a break for the

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Speaker 1: Labor Day holiday in the US, so here's one of

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Speaker 1: our favorite episodes you might have missed and an update.

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Speaker 1: Since the show first aired, the movie Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 1: Honor among Thieves was released and became a hit with critics,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't a Barbie sized mega blockbuster at the

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Speaker 1: box office. Fans have no fear though. The makers say

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Speaker 1: a sequel is still possible.

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Speaker 2: So are going to use spells or well?

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Speaker 1: We were working on this episode. Our supervising producer, Vicki

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Speaker 1: Virgolina told us her twelve year old son, who loves

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Speaker 1: video games, was having friends over for a game session.

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Speaker 1: But the game they were excited to play didn't require

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Speaker 1: a VR headset or even a controller. It wasn't Fortnite

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Speaker 1: or Destiny or Minecraft. No, they wanted to play a

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Speaker 1: fantasy game that's almost fifty years old and all you

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Speaker 1: need to play is a pen, a piece of paper,

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Speaker 1: and many sighted dice. Yeah, you got it. They were

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Speaker 1: playing Dungeons and Dragons.

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Speaker 3: When you're playing video games, you can't really see your

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Speaker 3: friends and actually like interact interact with them, and with

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Speaker 3: D and D you can like look at your friends

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Speaker 3: and you can like talk the situation out and like

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Speaker 3: what you're gonna do to like save your friend or

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Speaker 3: like slay a monster or something.

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Speaker 4: It's like an open world, like you can go wherever

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Speaker 4: you want, and like I like like some of the

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Speaker 4: monsters and like, yeah, it's fun most.

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Speaker 2: Of the time. I'm the DM, so I really like

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Speaker 2: making the stories. But about playing DUD.

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Speaker 3: I really like working with my teammates and just like

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Speaker 3: finding ways to beat the monsters and like clever wise,

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Speaker 3: it's freedom, the way that you can just go wherever

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Speaker 3: you want, make any decisions you want, and the fact

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Speaker 3: that like the decisions you make, you're just free completely.

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Speaker 2: In literally, look, I got a war, I got in your.

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Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the big take. I'm

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Speaker 1: west Kasova today. Dungeons and Dragons is a massive game.

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Speaker 1: Can it become a massive business too? Generations of players

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Speaker 1: old and young, as we just heard, there has spent

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Speaker 1: untold hours playing D and D. Now, the game's company,

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Speaker 1: has Bro, is hoping to cash in on that popularity

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Speaker 1: with a big budget movie and an array of D

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Speaker 1: and D products intended to hook players and keep them

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Speaker 1: paying for more. Business Week correspondent Felix Gillette is here

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Speaker 1: to explain why that might be a risky bet.

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Speaker 4: This did not go over well with the D and

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Speaker 4: D world. I mean, people felt like, oh, this is

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Speaker 4: so greedy on the part of this huge toy company.

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Speaker 4: You're trying to stifle innovation. You're going to end the

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Speaker 4: whole thing.

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Speaker 5: And later in the show, you know, you'll sit down

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Speaker 5: at a table with them, and the entire conversation you're

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Speaker 5: going to realize is going to be stories and experiences

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Speaker 5: that they had in their game.

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Speaker 1: We hear from a store owner who caters to the

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Speaker 1: D and D crowd, Felix, Today, we're talking about something

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Speaker 1: I never thought we do an episode about. But in

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Speaker 1: the Business Week story you've written with Thomas Buckley, you

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Speaker 1: say people are looking to make Dungeons and Dragons of

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Speaker 1: all things, into a big moneymaker. Why now after all

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Speaker 1: these years?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Dungeons and Dragons is kind of the

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Speaker 4: classic role playing game that was invented in nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 4: so it's coming up on its fiftieth birthday. For those

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Speaker 4: who haven't played before. You basically create a character according

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Speaker 4: to the set of rules and then you sit around

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Speaker 4: with a group of friends. One person serves as the

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Speaker 4: dungeon Master, and they kind of guide the players through

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Speaker 4: these group adventures. A lot of it is based on

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Speaker 4: your imagination, and then there's these books that have endless

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Speaker 4: rules for like how you fight and the monsters and

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Speaker 4: how you engage with them, and spells you can use.

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Speaker 4: And it's really fun. And it's going through this enormous

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Speaker 4: resurgence in the last couple of years where it's probably

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Speaker 4: more popular now than it's ever been, and that's because

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Speaker 4: of a number of different factors. I think part of

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Speaker 4: it is a generational thing. There's all these people like

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Speaker 4: myself who played it as a kid who are now

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Speaker 4: grown up and have more spending power and have gotten

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Speaker 4: their kids into it. It's been very prominent on the

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Speaker 4: Netflix hitch show Stranger Things, which has introduced a whole

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Speaker 4: new group with people to this game.

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Speaker 3: Shadow girls on the wall behind you, swallowing you in darkness.

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Speaker 3: It is almost here.

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Speaker 6: What is it?

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Speaker 7: What if it's the Demogorgan, Look Jue this, We're so screwed.

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Speaker 3: If it's the Demogorgan, the demo Gorgon.

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Speaker 7: An army of trouble, that's charge into the chamber truggle

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Speaker 7: that's told you.

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Speaker 4: And there's also this whole new crew of D and

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Speaker 4: D influencers. So if you go on YouTube you can

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Speaker 4: watch shows, there's D and D podcasts, TikTok, the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: And it's a game that lends itself very well to

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Speaker 4: live streaming. It's kind of a mix of fantasy imagination, storytelling, improvisation,

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Speaker 4: and comedy, and if you have a bunch of funny

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Speaker 4: people doing it, it's pretty entertaining to watch.

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Speaker 1: And so the thing behind it really is this story

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Speaker 1: that the story is unfolding in real time. You don't

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Speaker 1: really know which direction it's gonna go.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's just a bunch of obstacles that come out.

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Speaker 4: Usually players will have a adventure module that will kind

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Speaker 4: of provide a setting and a large goal and some

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Speaker 4: of the monsters that you might encounter along the way.

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Speaker 1: But it's very much up to.

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Speaker 4: The dungeon master to turn that loose structure of a

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Speaker 4: campaign into a linear series of events and challenges, and

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Speaker 4: it's up to the players to try and solve the

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Speaker 4: problems and get their characters to the end.

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Speaker 1: And there's an element of chance in.

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Speaker 4: This yes, and a lot of it. It's all basically

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Speaker 4: determined through rolling of dice, and the classic D and

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Speaker 4: D cultural icon is the twenty sided die, which, if

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Speaker 4: you have ever played it just has a certain feel.

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Speaker 4: That twenty sided di is amazing. I just love it,

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Speaker 4: even to this day. I haven't played Dungeons and Dragons

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Speaker 4: myself for more than thirty years, but even so, you

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Speaker 4: pick up one of those twenty sided dice and it's

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Speaker 4: just it's sweet.

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Speaker 1: So you were at Dungeons and drag Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: We had this great babysitter when I was in late

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Speaker 4: elementary and early junior high school. We had this babysitter,

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Speaker 4: Pippa Pipa Potter, who introduced me and my brother and

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Speaker 4: our best friend to it. And she was an amazing

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Speaker 4: dungeon master, and we played for years every time she

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Speaker 4: came over to babysit us. Eventually, Pipa went to college

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Speaker 4: and then we realized we would have to do it ourselves,

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Speaker 4: and my brother, who was older than May, became the

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Speaker 4: dungeon master, but me and my friend Daniel, really could

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Speaker 4: never accept his authority and it fell apart from there.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day, I mean, I remember when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid I was not a D and D kid,

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Speaker 1: but I had a lot of friends who played in Like,

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Speaker 1: some of their parents thought this was a terrible influence

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Speaker 1: on their lives.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in the nineteen seventies, as this was gaining popularity,

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Speaker 4: there was all this stuff about don't let your kids

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Speaker 4: play Dungeons and Dragons, it's going to ruin their brain.

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Speaker 4: On the one hand, I think it actually drew players

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Speaker 4: in and increased the popularity of the game among teenagers

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Speaker 4: in particular. On the other hand, it made it difficult

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Speaker 4: for Dungeons and Dragons owners, the businesses that we're trying

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Speaker 4: to make money from this game. I think over the

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Speaker 4: years it really has hurt D and d's ability to

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Speaker 4: kind of branch out and become a broader, more mainstream,

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Speaker 4: family friendly brand, which has kind of been the goal

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Speaker 4: of its owners for like almost a half century now.

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Speaker 1: And now all these years later, that's exactly what some

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Speaker 1: big companies are trying to do, try to take this

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Speaker 1: game that was once seen as edgy and now kind

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Speaker 1: of looks a little wholesome and make it into a

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Speaker 1: really big brand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So Dungeons and Dragons is now owned by Hasbro, which

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Speaker 4: is one of the largest toy companies in the world

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Speaker 4: that have monopoly. They have scrabbled, they have toggled, they

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Speaker 4: have you know, transformers, all these different toys and games

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Speaker 4: in their portfolio of brands. And during the last couple

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Speaker 4: of years, as there's been this huge surge in interest

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Speaker 4: in playing Dungeons and Dragons, Hasbro has looked at this

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Speaker 4: and they've said, Wow, this is like a great opportunity

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Speaker 4: to really make a lot more money from this brand.

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Speaker 4: And last year, Hasbro set this aggressive growth goal and

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Speaker 4: they said, we're going to increase our profits by fifty

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Speaker 4: percent over the next three years. And as they laid

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Speaker 4: out their strategy for doing this, they pointed to Dungeons

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Speaker 4: and Dragons. They said, that's really an under moonetized brand

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Speaker 4: and we see it as a big potential growth sector

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Speaker 4: for us. So what's kind of fascinating now is we're

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Speaker 4: really at the forefront of Hasbro's blitz to really make

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Speaker 4: more money from Dungeons and Dragons. So over the next year,

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Speaker 4: you're going to see all these D and D brand

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Speaker 4: extensions coming down the pipeline. And the first really big

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Speaker 4: one is Hasbro's E one Studio and Paramount Pictures recently

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Speaker 4: premiered Dungeons and Dragons Honor among Thieves, which is this

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Speaker 4: big cgi Leyden blockbuster movie, comedy adventure movie. Chris Pine,

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Speaker 4: Michelle Rodriguez, Hugh Grant all star in this movie.

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Speaker 1: Exactly that you bring to this.

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Speaker 6: I'm a planner. I make plans.

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Speaker 4: You've already made planned.

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Speaker 6: So if the existing plan fails, I make a new plant.

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Speaker 7: So you make plans that fail.

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Speaker 8: He also plays the.

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Speaker 5: Loot not relevant.

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Speaker 4: So this is one of their big investments. There's also

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Speaker 4: Balder's Gate III, which is a video game based on

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Speaker 4: Dungeons and Dragons that's coming out later this year. They've

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Speaker 4: announced that Paramount Plus, the streaming service, is working on

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Speaker 4: a live action D and D series, and next year

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Speaker 4: they're going to be rolling out one D and D,

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Speaker 4: which is the next iteration, the next edition of the

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Speaker 4: classic tabletop game. In addition to new rule sets and

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Speaker 4: new books, they're also promising fans that this is going

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Speaker 4: to be a more digitized experience, and it's going to

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Speaker 4: come with all these new digital add ons, including a

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Speaker 4: virtual tabletop, which is basically a three D environment. Has

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Speaker 4: Bro really for years has been looking at Dungeons and

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Speaker 4: Dragons and thinking how can we make this more of

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Speaker 4: a digital experience, because frankly, the classic tabletop role playing

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Speaker 4: industry is pretty small. It's one hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 4: dollars of retail sales in the US and Canada, which,

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Speaker 4: when you think about it, is less than the studio

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Speaker 4: can make from a single hit movie or a single

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Speaker 4: video game.

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Speaker 1: So part of the effort.

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Speaker 4: To grow Dungeons and Dragons is, Okay, what can we

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Speaker 4: do that's something in between a game you play around

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Speaker 4: a table with your friends and not quite a video game.

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Speaker 4: And when the pandemic hit in twenty twenty, it sort

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Speaker 4: of accelerated the process, right because suddenly you couldn't get

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Speaker 4: together with your friends and sit around a table, and

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Speaker 4: so you started seeing a real uptick in you know, okay,

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Speaker 4: let's get together over zoom or discord. Traditionally, you would

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Speaker 4: keep track of your character's evolution on a piece of

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Speaker 4: paper with a pencil. Well, we can't really see each

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Speaker 4: other's characters, like, maybe there's an app. There was an

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Speaker 4: app called D and D Beyond that.

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Speaker 1: Allowed you to do this digitally.

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Speaker 4: People started playing a lot of times with D and

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Speaker 4: D Beyond open on their phone and that service, which

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Speaker 4: at the time was independent, that got a lot of

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Speaker 4: growth upsurge during the early months of the pandemic. So

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Speaker 4: Hasbro was watching all of this and they were thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 4: the evolution is happening. We want to get involved in this,

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Speaker 4: we want to get ahead of this. So last year

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Speaker 4: they went out and they acquired D and D Beyond.

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Speaker 4: They paid close to one hundred and fifty million dollars,

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Speaker 4: and now they're essentially saying they're going to make this

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Speaker 4: the center of the D and D experience. I think

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Speaker 4: what they ideally would like is for D and D

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Speaker 4: players to use the D and D Beyond app while

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Speaker 4: they're playing the game. They'd like people to go on

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Speaker 4: to the D and D Beyond forums to chat with

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Speaker 4: their friends, and even more so, they would like people

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Speaker 4: to start gathering virtually in this virtual tabletop that's coming out,

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Speaker 4: and once they're there, I think their idea is, Okay, well,

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Speaker 4: how are we going to make more money for the game,

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Speaker 4: And they're kind of looking at this model that's very

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Speaker 4: popular in the video game world, which is like, we'll

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Speaker 4: give away the digital experience, either for free or for

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Speaker 4: a low cost, but once you're in there, We're going

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Speaker 4: to lure you with all these potential add ons for

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Speaker 4: your characters, so you can get a cool outfit for

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Speaker 4: your wizard, or like a new spell that lights up

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Speaker 4: the screen or something, and you'll pay us like a

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Speaker 4: couple dollars here and there. And they're hoping that all

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Speaker 4: these micro transactions will add up to a lot more

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Speaker 4: money over time.

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Speaker 1: When we come back. Can Hasbro get people to pay

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Speaker 1: for a game that's been nearly free for decades.

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Speaker 6: My name is Eric, and I am from Cincinnati, Ohio.

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Speaker 6: I think the beautiful thing about D and D is

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Speaker 6: that it's a game where you can see yours and

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Speaker 6: the other players at the tables. Decisions and choices impact

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Speaker 6: the world, the story, and the characters. In another medium,

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Speaker 6: like video games, you can really only solve a problem

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Speaker 6: in a way that the designer planned for you to

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Speaker 6: be able to solve, whereas in D and D you're

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Speaker 6: able to address problems in these creative, out of the

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Speaker 6: box solutions that maybe you're the only person that would

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Speaker 6: have thought of to try it that way, but then

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Speaker 6: you're able to see that scenario play out and how

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Speaker 6: that would impact the world and the story.

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Speaker 1: Felix Hasbro is trying to turn what's always been is

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Speaker 1: very face to face analog game into some more digital,

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Speaker 1: which makes sense. But you had mentioned earlier that there's

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Speaker 1: been this resurgence in playing D and D and a

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Speaker 1: lot of that, as you write, was based on the

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Speaker 1: fact that it wasn't digital. It was almost like proudly

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Speaker 1: anti digital. Are people going to accept what Hasbro is

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Speaker 1: trying to get them to do. I think it's going to.

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Speaker 4: Be a tough sell. I think that part of the appeal,

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Speaker 4: as you said, of Dungeons and Dragons, is that it

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Speaker 4: is this analog experience, and I think it's a way

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Speaker 4: of getting together with friends where you don't have to

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Speaker 4: deal with all the trappings of digital life, social media feedback,

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Speaker 4: you know, cameras, microphones, like it's a really great feeling

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Speaker 4: to get back and just sit around at table with people,

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Speaker 4: and I think that's been part of the appeal.

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Speaker 7: Then.

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Speaker 4: I think it's also been really fascinating to watch now

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Speaker 4: because the concern of parents almost universally is like, our

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Speaker 4: kids are spending too much time on the screen, right

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Speaker 4: They're just always playing video games, looking at social media,

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Speaker 4: watching their streaming shows, and this huge desire to get

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Speaker 4: them off the screens and to do anything else. And

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Speaker 4: I think D and D has been great and very

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Speaker 4: appealing for that very reason. So now you see parents

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Speaker 4: really wanting their kids to go play.

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Speaker 7: D n Z.

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Speaker 4: Go down the basement, Hey, get the dice out. You know,

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Speaker 4: you guys will have fun. And I think ironically that's

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Speaker 4: been part of the multi generational boom that D and

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Speaker 4: D has been experiencing in popularity is its appeal as

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Speaker 4: an analog product. So I think that's part of the

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Speaker 4: challenge that Hasro is going to have. The other big

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Speaker 4: part of the challenge is that historically, part of the

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Speaker 4: reason that Dungeons and Dragons has been a difficult business

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Speaker 4: for its various owners over the years to monetize is

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Speaker 4: because of something about the fan base itself and anything

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Speaker 4: that reeks of kind of unfettered commercials or dumbing down

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Speaker 4: the game. They get very very vocal that like, this

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Speaker 4: is not a good thing. Hasbro actually found themselves in

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Speaker 4: this huge controversy with its fan base. Basically what happened

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Speaker 4: is that twenty three years ago, the original company that

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Speaker 4: owned Dungeons and Dragons, they sold the business to Wizards

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Speaker 4: of the Coast, which was this hobby company outside of

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Speaker 4: Seattle which had this hit game called Magic the Gathering,

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Speaker 4: and they were flushed with cash. They go out, they

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Speaker 4: buy D and D and so what they did, and

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Speaker 4: this was very smart. Probably the best decision that's been

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Speaker 4: made in the fifty year history of Dungeons Dragons is

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Speaker 4: they said, we're going to adopt this open game license.

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Speaker 4: And it was essentially saying, if you're a fan of

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Speaker 4: the game, if you like to play it, and you

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Speaker 4: want to create a little add on feature, you want

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Speaker 4: to write an adventure module that you could take your

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Speaker 4: friends through and it's really fun, and you decide you

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Speaker 4: want to sell it, that's great. You don't have to

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Speaker 4: ask us for a permit and go start selling it yourself.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of been taken for granted that that's how

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Speaker 4: the D and D world works. And the other thing

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Speaker 4: that was great about this open licensing framework is it

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Speaker 4: really broadened the types of people the groups of people

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Speaker 4: that were playing Dungeons and Dragons. Initially, it was a

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Speaker 4: lot of boys in the Midwest, men in the Midwest

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Speaker 4: playing This is kind of the community that grew out

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Speaker 4: of Now you suddenly you have more women coming in.

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Speaker 4: You have more people of color and allowed people to

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Speaker 4: make characters and adventures that appealed to them and their friends.

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Speaker 4: And it was this great diversifying effect on the broader

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Speaker 4: Dungeons and Dragons community.

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Speaker 1: Feelix, why do I feel like there's a big butt

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Speaker 1: coming here? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But then late last year, Hasbro started reaching out to

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Speaker 4: people in the role playing game community and saying, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know what, we have this new contract that's going

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Speaker 4: to replace the open game license. We're going to update it.

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Speaker 4: And when people took a look at it, all, hell

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Speaker 4: broke loose. I mean, people were so pissed off because

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Speaker 4: essentially what it signaled, in many small ways was that

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Speaker 4: the open Dungeons and Dragons era was coming to an

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Speaker 4: end and it was going to be replaced with something else,

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Speaker 4: in which Hasbro was much more tightly controlling the ecosystem

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Speaker 4: around Dungeons and Dragons. If you were a publisher and

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Speaker 4: you were making more than fifty thousand dollars a year

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Speaker 4: from D and D related products, you'd have to go

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Speaker 4: to them and say exactly what it was you were selling,

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Speaker 4: and to who If you were making more than seven

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, then it would

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Speaker 4: kick in a licensing fee, and this did not go

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Speaker 4: over well with the D and D world, huge controversy

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Speaker 4: in that world. So by the end of January Hasbro

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Speaker 4: essentially capitulated. They apologize we're going to keep the open

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Speaker 4: gaming license in place and we want everyone to participate.

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Speaker 4: They did not really say too much about the future.

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Speaker 4: So to what degree third party creators are going to

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Speaker 4: be able to create supplemental materials in this new hybrid

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Speaker 4: digital Dungeons and Dragons world. It's very much something that

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Speaker 4: D and D fans and creators and community members are

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Speaker 4: wondering about.

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Speaker 1: In all of this, there's nothing that keeps people from

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Speaker 1: just using the old books they use when they were kids.

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Speaker 1: Are the ones that are still out there and just

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Speaker 1: doing their own games. It's not like you have to

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Speaker 1: be part of the Hasbro ecosystem now to play Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons.

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Speaker 4: Correct. You could go back and play the original Dungeons Dragons.

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Speaker 4: You could play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. You could play

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Speaker 4: the second edition, the third edition, the fourth edition. There

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Speaker 4: are all these books circulating, rule sets circulating over the years.

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Speaker 4: I think the difference is that, especially you're kind of

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Speaker 4: watching the Dungeons and Dragons influencers on Twitch, and you're

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Speaker 4: you know, going on YouTube and watching people talk about

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Speaker 4: the game, and you're listening to D and D podcasts.

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Speaker 4: I think all of that has added an element of

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Speaker 4: currency and wanting to be part of the new version

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Speaker 4: because you know, the old versions work, but the rules

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Speaker 4: are different, and this is really just there's no board

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Speaker 4: game involved with Dungeons Dragons. It's really the rules. And

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Speaker 4: so I think, if anything, this broader ecosystem of Dungeons

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Speaker 4: and Dragons fans that's built up has put more emphasis

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Speaker 4: on being part of the current era. And like I said,

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Speaker 4: I think that's part of the reason that the current edition,

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Speaker 4: which is the fifth edition, is the most popular in

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Speaker 4: the game's history. I think the question becomes how many

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Speaker 4: of those devoted, happy fifth edition players is has Bro

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Speaker 4: going to be able to move over to this new

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Speaker 4: version and is there some risk of as you're trying

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Speaker 4: to broaden this, as you're trying to make it more digital,

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Speaker 4: as you're trying to make it more appealing to non players,

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Speaker 4: do you lose something and do you potentially risk alienating

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Speaker 4: this group of existing fans that are playing it happily now.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think the answer is? Hesbro is

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Speaker 1: putting a big bet on this game. It's still a

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Speaker 1: really complicated game, is still sort of a niche game.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that they can build this into a

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Speaker 1: mass market success.

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Speaker 4: I think it's going to be really difficult. I think

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Speaker 4: the nature of Dungeons and Dragons is that the most

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Speaker 4: important element is the imagination of the people who are

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Speaker 4: playing in the group, and that's a very hard thing

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Speaker 4: to turn into a product.

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Speaker 1: So, Felix, after writing the story, has it rekindled your

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Speaker 1: childhood love of D and D? Are you going to

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Speaker 1: start playing again?

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Speaker 4: It has. I'm very gamed to start playing again. I

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Speaker 4: want to get my kids into it. We've been playing

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Speaker 4: a stripped down role playing game that's much simpler, that's

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Speaker 4: kind of geared for younger kids called Hero Kids, that

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Speaker 4: similarly uses a lot of the conventions of Dungeons and Dragons.

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Speaker 4: But I think it's a feeling like it might be

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Speaker 4: time to graduate them up to Dungeons and Dragons.

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Speaker 1: Felix, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 4: My pleasure.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we meet a store owner who makes

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Speaker 1: a living serving these gamers.

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Speaker 7: My name is Raven and I'm from eastern Pennsylvania growing

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Speaker 7: up in a religious community. D and D was something

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Speaker 7: that I had heard foreign tails of, this strange game

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Speaker 7: that people would partake in, and I didn't really know

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Speaker 7: or understand a whole lot about it, only that I

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Speaker 7: was dissuaded.

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Speaker 1: From playing it.

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Speaker 7: So as an adult, coming to D and D was interesting.

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Speaker 7: I'm a person who's very involved in the arts, so

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Speaker 7: the idea of being able to make up a story

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Speaker 7: and live in that story was very appealing.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to talk to someone who's deeply familiar with

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons and the people who play it, and

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Speaker 1: also what it takes to make D and D a business.

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Speaker 1: Our producer, Michael Falerro, called up Lauren Bolonco. She's the

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Speaker 1: co owner of twenty Side that's a board game retail

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Speaker 1: store and event space in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 8: Can you describe how you would explain your business to

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Speaker 8: folks if they asked, like, what do you do? What

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Speaker 8: is twenty sided do? How do you'd explain it?

438
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 5: Twenty Sided Store and twenty Sided event Space has been

439
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 5: going on for twelve years. The retail side of things,

440
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 5: we sell games on the secondary market, so we sell

441
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 5: a lot of board games, everything from party games to

442
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 5: heavy strategy games. We started off as an event space,

443
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 5: and the retail kind of grew out of that. When

444
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 5: we started, we were running magic gathering events and then

445
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 5: started you know, picking up Wizards of the Coast, Dungeons

446
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 5: and Dragons, organized play kits, all kinds of ways for

447
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 5: people to come together and meet other people. I think

448
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 5: over the twelve years we've really realized that that's been

449
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 5: kind of the key is, you know a lot of

450
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 5: people are looking for other people who are into this

451
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 5: hobby and they want to find other people to play with.

452
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 5: What we do at twenty Sided is we create an

453
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 5: environment where people can come and learn how to play

454
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 5: as they're playing. So we started off right away with

455
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 5: that kind of being the foremost of it. We would

456
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 5: have pre generated characters that you could play, and then

457
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 5: as you sort of got a little bit more familiar

458
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 5: with it, we'd have opportunities for our participants to create

459
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 5: their own characters and bring those characters back. But then

460
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 5: there's also now these experiences where you know, people want

461
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 5: to watch other people play games. Because there were people

462
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 5: who constantly were like, I'm new to this, I'm really

463
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 5: afraid to try this out. Is there any way that

464
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 5: I could watch? But then eventually I thought, oh, you

465
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 5: know what if we have people that are willing to

466
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 5: be on stage and want to perform this for other people,

467
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 5: then this is a way that we could have an audience.

468
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 8: For somebody who walks off the street. You've described kind

469
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 8: of this learning how to make a character, learning how

470
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 8: to start playing, which can be in overwhelming but very

471
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 8: fun experience. If someone walks in during one of these

472
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 8: nights where we have any these events going on, what

473
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 8: are they most likely to see? Are they sitting down

474
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 8: at a table with other folks like paint us a picture.

475
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it all starts off with you know, you just

476
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 5: pre register on our website for either one session or

477
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 5: I like to kind of group it into smaller, more

478
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 5: palatable ways for people to register for an event. You know,

479
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 5: we're all adults and it you know, lives are busy.

480
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 5: So if we do campaigns, I will have people sign

481
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 5: up maybe for four weeks at a time, and so

482
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 5: there's always an opportunity to kind of take a break

483
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 5: or come back. And then for the individual sessions, we

484
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 5: try to write things in a way where each of

485
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 5: the storylines can have an end even if they're just

486
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 5: a one shot. But if you keep bringing that character

487
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 5: back for a series of one shots, they are all

488
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 5: still sort of set in the same world where you

489
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 5: can keep bringing that character back. And I've started creating

490
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 5: my own world for this experience. Even though we've got

491
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 5: a huge, huge selection of role playing games that we

492
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 5: sell and different games that we run at the store,

493
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 5: Dungeons and Dragons is still probably our best seller and

494
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 5: the one that most people want to play and learn

495
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 5: how to play.

496
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 8: You've had this business for twelve years. You just had

497
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 8: your anniversary recently. Just describe in a few words, like

498
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 8: how has the D and D scene at your store

499
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 8: changed in those twelve years.

500
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 5: It's changed a lot, you know, for the most part,

501
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 5: now almost everybody has a better idea of how to

502
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 5: play and what it is. And I think that's because

503
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 5: they're watching other people play. There's a lot more resources

504
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 5: out there for people to watch, right, Like, can I

505
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 5: just see how this is done? How do people do this?

506
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 5: So back when we were first running games, I think

507
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 5: a lot of it was people came to it realizing

508
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 5: that they were an equal participant in the process. And

509
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 5: I think now there's more of this expectation of this

510
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 5: entertainment value.

511
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 8: So for an audience like hours that I would imagine

512
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 8: most of them haven't played D and D, could you explain,

513
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 8: you know, what is the appeal of the game for everyone?

514
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 8: What can the appeal be?

515
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: You know, we get to develop a world and create

516
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 5: a character and play in this fantasy environment that is

517
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 5: super fun. And I think for people who play in

518
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 5: ongoing campaigns, you know, you'll sit down at a table

519
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: with them and the entire conversation you're going to realize

520
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 5: is going to be stories and experiences that they had

521
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 5: in their game. They're memorable, you know, these things that

522
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 5: happened because you are part of the storytelling process that

523
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 5: you create something. The support and the encouragement from everybody

524
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 5: around you helps you create things that you never thought

525
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 5: you could do, to come up with ideas that you

526
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 5: never thought you could ever have, And that's where I

527
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 5: think you get these memorable experiences that stick with you

528
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 5: for life. So you know, it's wild.

529
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 8: Lauren Blanco, thanks so much for coming on the show.

530
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was

531
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Thanks for listening to us here at the

532
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: Big Take it's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.

533
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,120
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534
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535
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments at Big Take at Bloomberg

536
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is

537
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: Vicky Virgolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers

538
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,440
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539
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