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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's the Breakfast

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Speaker 1: Club revisited and entitled The Composer's Breakfast Club, this time

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Speaker 1: with Hollywood music makers talking over smoked salmon and fresh

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Speaker 1: fruit at a private club on the beach in Malibu.

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Speaker 1: Their major concern recently is the flood of copyright lawsuits

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Speaker 1: infringement lawsuits with hefty verdicts. Joining me is Vernon Silver,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg new senior reporter for Projects and Investigations. So Vernon

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about this breakfast club. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting. You know, went to one of their

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Speaker 1: their meetings early one Monday morning recently in Malibu to

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Speaker 1: take their pulse about these these infringement lawsuits. And we've

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Speaker 1: we've heard a lot from some of the old rockers

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Speaker 1: from the classic rock and classic soul era about their

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Speaker 1: protests about how their work is being lifted. And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to see what current composers were saying about this,

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Speaker 1: and the fact is they're scared. Um. You know, they

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Speaker 1: make their living day in day out through ads and

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Speaker 1: soundtracks to TV and and uh and movies, making new

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Speaker 1: music that that's catchy, and they really do have to

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Speaker 1: stand on the shoulders of of giants, and these legal challenges, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know are tough for them. Uh. What I found

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Speaker 1: fascinating is you right that they sort of re enact

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Speaker 1: some of the famous trials that have gone wrong apparently

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Speaker 1: recently for them, which is the Blurred Lines trial and

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Speaker 1: the recent Katie Perry trial exactly. And what they've done

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Speaker 1: is they've come to the opposite conclusion of what you know,

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Speaker 1: people off the street on a jury come to you know,

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Speaker 1: they say, you know, someone, here's the two records together

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Speaker 1: on a jury and they say, yeah, it sounds the

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Speaker 1: same guilty in their case. As as professionals. They they

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Speaker 1: this sort of infringement as well, they didn't copy the

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Speaker 1: exact notes and that kind of thing. And what's happening

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Speaker 1: now is they have their eyes on the big one

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Speaker 1: coming up, which is the steroid to Heaven dispute, which

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Speaker 1: is hitting next week in the in San Francisco, and

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Speaker 1: the appeals court. It seems like everyone. In fact, the

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Speaker 1: court in New York put on hold the trial over

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Speaker 1: ed Sharon's song because they're waiting for this Ninth Circuit

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Speaker 1: appellate argument, which is going to be an on bank court.

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Speaker 1: That means eleven judges on the court. What's going to

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Speaker 1: happen there? Yeah, I mean, this is this is what

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Speaker 1: it's really building up to. All of these cases which

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Speaker 1: have involved on some case of Marvin Gay and Katie

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Speaker 1: Perry and you know, all these big names, the oldies

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Speaker 1: versus the new the new ones really come to a

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Speaker 1: head next week at this at this hearing in San

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Speaker 1: Francisco where this is the test case. You know, one

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Speaker 1: step from the Supreme Court over how how to understand

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Speaker 1: what copying of these old songs are. In this case,

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Speaker 1: it's steroid to heaven. Everybody knows the sending notes of

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Speaker 1: that were they lifted from this obscure instrumental called Tourists

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Speaker 1: by the band's spirit. There's the nineteen sixties song um

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Speaker 1: that very few people have heard, but that you know,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Page from led Zeppelin had this record in his collection.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he copied it, maybe he didn't. Um. The The

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Speaker 1: thing here is how they made copyright protection until was

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Speaker 1: by depositing a little piece of sheet music in the

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Speaker 1: copyright office in Washington. In this case, it was just

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Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty four notes that were written down

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Speaker 1: and stuck in the in the copyright office in this case.

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Speaker 1: And you know, should that be enough for should they

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Speaker 1: listen to the record when comparing them. That's that's what's

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Speaker 1: that stake care And you talk in your article about

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Speaker 1: thin protection, that it could lead to thin protection, explain

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Speaker 1: what you mean by that. Yeah, this has turned into

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Speaker 1: a showdown between you know, the entire music industry, which

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Speaker 1: is backed by the Trump administration in this case, and

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Speaker 1: you know it really it's led Zeppelin's case, but it's

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Speaker 1: turned into the whole music industries case now versus the

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Speaker 1: old composers from the oldies. And what they're arguing is

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Speaker 1: that some of these these old songs should really be

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Speaker 1: given thin copyright protection, meaning that if they were just

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Speaker 1: built out of commonplace musical themes and piece together in

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Speaker 1: some way that seems original but maybe is not so original,

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Speaker 1: that maybe we should just give thin protection to the

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Speaker 1: older songs. The upshot being that if led Zeppelin in

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Speaker 1: the music industry get their way in this case, that

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Speaker 1: a lot of these older songs will really be open

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Speaker 1: for you know, free picking by members of this breakfast

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Speaker 1: club in Malibu, for example, who will then be able

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Speaker 1: to use kind of whatever they want. And it could

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Speaker 1: be not just even music, like what happens if you

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Speaker 1: have thin protection for screenplays. Maybe I don't lift the

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Speaker 1: entire screenplay of your TV show, but maybe I take

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Speaker 1: the idea a little bit. And that's what they're worried about. No,

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Speaker 1: I wonder led Zeppelin one at the trial level, so

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Speaker 1: the jury voted for led Zeppelin, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: that may have been, you know, a feel for led Zeppelin,

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Speaker 1: this iconic band. Now you have the trump in the illustration,

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Speaker 1: the music industry on led Zeppelin's side, and one wonders

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Speaker 1: how that might play into things. It makes it makes

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Speaker 1: me wonder, Yeah, I mean, these are these are rock stars.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was at the trial, you know, in

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and there was one moment I counted the minutes,

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Speaker 1: twenty two minutes in which all three surviving members of

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Speaker 1: led Zeppelin were there in the courtroom with the only

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Speaker 1: about fifty of us. There is a star quality to this,

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Speaker 1: you know, And and if you think of also the age,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these federal judges, these are people of

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Speaker 1: a generation who might have liked led Zeppelin. Um, they

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Speaker 1: could be seen as sympathetic. But that's what the other

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Speaker 1: side wants to argue in this is you know, how

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Speaker 1: how about these these less paid, lesser known songwriters from

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Speaker 1: that era, whether in Seoul or rock, Um, don't they

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Speaker 1: deserve to have their intellectual property protected? To well, I

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Speaker 1: was just at the Rock and Roll exhibit at the

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Speaker 1: MET here and they have you know, pages all his

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Speaker 1: his guitars, and they have a video of him and

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Speaker 1: I had to tell you that it was entrancing. So

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Speaker 1: is he going to be or are any members of

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Speaker 1: the band going to be at the at the hearing

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Speaker 1: next week? And none of none of them are expected

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Speaker 1: to show up. We checked the touring schedules. You know,

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Speaker 1: Robert Plant is vaguely in the area. Um, but I

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Speaker 1: think they were loads to show up for the for

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Speaker 1: the trial itself, So I don't think any any star

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Speaker 1: watchers are going to catch them there. Your best bet

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Speaker 1: actually is going to the met exhibit and listen to

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Speaker 1: the video the Jimmy Page made where he really talks

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Speaker 1: about the creation of Stairway to Heaven. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: surprised it's not an exhibit in the trial at this point. Well, now,

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Speaker 1: just just to take us back for a second, just

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Speaker 1: review briefly the history of this, of the of the

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Speaker 1: led Zeppelin trial where it's been um it's it's started

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Speaker 1: with a Bloomberg Business Week story that compared the two

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Speaker 1: uh and we went and interviewed some of the band

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Speaker 1: members from and family members from Spirit and UM and

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Speaker 1: their lawyer. And in the process of that and two

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Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen, UH they student Philadelphia got transferred to

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Speaker 1: uh L A and and really this is about the

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Speaker 1: early you know, they rehashed the history where led Zeppelin's

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Speaker 1: first concert in the US with them opening for Spirit

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Speaker 1: UM and you know, and in the following days they

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Speaker 1: started playing a Spirit song and they piece this together.

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Speaker 1: You know, would led Zeppelin have heard the song that

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Speaker 1: they they owned the record and all this stuff. And

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting tale that you know, it's ancient rock history,

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Speaker 1: but you know it's intriguing. It's the story. It's the

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Speaker 1: story of our culture. It absolutely is. And I'll bring

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Speaker 1: Jason Kelly in here because it is it's so fascinating

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Speaker 1: when you hear this and it doesn't happen anymore in

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Speaker 1: rock Well and and Vernon, you've been tracking this so closely.

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Speaker 1: We love talking to you about it for our Business

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Speaker 1: Week radio and television shows. This could fundamentally change the

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Speaker 1: way that musicians think about how they put together songs, right, No, Jason,

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Speaker 1: You're right. I mean this is and talking to them

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Speaker 1: if you think about it, just in the soundtracks for films,

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Speaker 1: the way you know, a director makes the film and

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Speaker 1: just shoves in a couple of songs called spec songs

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Speaker 1: and say, you know, for this scene, makes something that

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Speaker 1: sounds like that. And this is how the music is made.

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Speaker 1: It's reverse engineered. How much can we do to make

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Speaker 1: it sound a certain way? You know, if you open

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Speaker 1: up some of these these riffs and guitar solos, sax

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Speaker 1: solos that were never written down on the sheet music

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Speaker 1: there's deposited in Washington. You open that up, they can

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Speaker 1: they can make ring tones, you can. You have to

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Speaker 1: leave it there, Vernon, but we will check back with

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Speaker 1: you after the trial, which is next week. After the hearing,

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Speaker 1: I should say that's Vernon Silver, Bloomberg News Senior reporter

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Speaker 1: for Projects and investigations. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg Ye