WEBVTT - 5. Surf Nazi 0:00:15.036 --> 0:00:22.036 Pushkin. Hey, Lost Tails listeners, it's Dana. I wanted to 0:00:22.076 --> 0:00:24.196 let you know that you can hear the entire new 0:00:24.236 --> 0:00:27.556 season of Lost Hills ad free, along with other great 0:00:27.596 --> 0:00:31.836 binge listens by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin 0:00:31.916 --> 0:00:35.156 Plus on the Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts, 0:00:35.316 --> 0:00:39.436 or at pushkin dot fm slash plus. 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:47.956 So the board that we're going to look at is 0:00:48.556 --> 0:00:50.396 right over here that I'm going to take you over to, 0:00:50.516 --> 0:00:54.716 but it's from the American Ladder Company with the Los 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:56.716 Angeles Ladder Company. We'll see in a moment. 0:00:57.076 --> 0:01:02.236 And I'm at the California Surf Museum in Oceanside with 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:06.876 jim Kempton. He's the museum president. It's a small museum 0:01:07.036 --> 0:01:11.516 stuffed literally to the rafters withfboards. The collection includes the 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:14.436 one hundred and ten pound redwood planks that were used 0:01:14.436 --> 0:01:17.716 in the early days by people like Mickey Door's Stepdad 0:01:17.836 --> 0:01:22.196 Guard Chapin, the fiberglass and foam longboards that became popular 0:01:22.236 --> 0:01:26.836 after World War Two, and the tiny light performance shortboards 0:01:26.876 --> 0:01:30.716 many pros used today. They even have the surfboard the 0:01:30.756 --> 0:01:34.276 professional surfer Bethany Hamilton was riding when she lost her 0:01:34.396 --> 0:01:37.156 arm to a shark attack when she was thirteen. It 0:01:37.196 --> 0:01:40.796 has a bite out of it. But right now I'm 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:43.916 looking at one of the first commercially manufactured and mass 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:47.516 produced surfboards in America, which came out in the nineteen thirties. 0:01:48.716 --> 0:01:51.956 It's a thing of beauty varnished redwood with a balsa 0:01:51.956 --> 0:01:56.036 wood stringer. It evokes an old woody station wagon crossed 0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:56.876 with a totem pole. 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:01.556 And at the very bottom of those boards it was 0:02:01.556 --> 0:02:02.636 where they put the swastika. 0:02:05.596 --> 0:02:09.036 The first mass produced surfboards in America had swastikas on that. 0:02:10.036 --> 0:02:15.876 They were called, wait for it, swastika boards. That's right, 0:02:16.516 --> 0:02:20.636 America's original surf brand is associated with what is now 0:02:20.676 --> 0:02:26.156 a universal symbol of white supremacy and hate right there. 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:28.236 And was it red or black or. 0:02:28.796 --> 0:02:31.876 It was it was painted, It was generally black. And 0:02:31.996 --> 0:02:39.676 just is that actually carved on them? So they were Yeah. 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.796 Swastika boards were made in la by a company that 0:02:42.836 --> 0:02:46.116 built prefab homes and they were a huge hit. 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:49.636 They made all kinds of wooden products like ladders, they 0:02:49.756 --> 0:02:52.556 and they made these surfboards and they put the swastkas 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:55.116 on them for reasons unbeknown standing. One I think now. 0:02:55.716 --> 0:02:58.916 A flyer advertising the boards shows a muscular, fair haired 0:02:58.956 --> 0:03:01.596 man sliding down the face of a wave, a giant 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:05.916 swastika in the background. Enjoy the thrill of a swastika 0:03:06.156 --> 0:03:06.796 is the slogan. 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:11.836 The swastika has a very interesting story, both in surfing 0:03:11.876 --> 0:03:16.996 in outside of it. It's an incredibly iconic symbol, like 0:03:17.036 --> 0:03:19.876 the cross, or the crescent or so many others, and 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:23.436 it wasn't until the Nazis adopted it that anything was 0:03:23.436 --> 0:03:28.396 thought of it. But as soon as Hitler actually invaded Poland, 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:30.236 they stopped making them. 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:35.676 In nineteen thirty eight, the board was renamed the Ykiki Model. 0:03:36.836 --> 0:03:40.076 Nineteen thirty eight was a momentous year for Hitler's campaign 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:43.356 in Europe. It was the year of Anglis, the German 0:03:43.476 --> 0:03:48.596 Army's annexation of Austria and Krystal knocked a devastating pogrom 0:03:48.676 --> 0:03:54.436 against Jews in Germany, Austria and German occupied Czechoslovakia. The 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:58.316 Ykiki model board didn't come with the swastika on it. 0:03:59.796 --> 0:04:02.516 I happened to think nineteen thirty eight is a little 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:05.796 late to have dropped the swastika branding. All the way 0:04:05.796 --> 0:04:08.836 back in the nineteen twenties, Hitler had published main Komp 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:11.676 with the swastika on the cover, describing it as a 0:04:11.676 --> 0:04:17.276 symbol of Aryan victory. But in California, swastika boards were 0:04:17.316 --> 0:04:21.436 in circulation for as long as the boards lasted, surfers 0:04:21.436 --> 0:04:25.676 didn't seem to be ashamed of them. They cherished them. 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:29.756 Guard Chapin Mickey's stepdad, was into making his own surfboards, 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:32.916 and when Micky got into surfing, Guard made one for him, 0:04:33.236 --> 0:04:36.796 shaving down an old swastika board. This would have been 0:04:36.836 --> 0:04:40.476 around nineteen fifty, when the atrocities committed by the Nazis 0:04:40.556 --> 0:04:42.956 under the sign of the swastika were well known to 0:04:43.036 --> 0:04:48.036 the entire world. The question was did surfers even care 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:52.676 or did that symbol gain cachet in some of their minds. 0:04:53.916 --> 0:04:56.356 I don't know if Mickey's swastika board had an actual 0:04:56.436 --> 0:05:00.356 swastika on It doesn't really matter though, Well, it didn't 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:04.436 matter to Mickey because way way later Mickey would ride 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:07.316 an up to date custom fiberglass board with a big 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:11.916 old swastika on the underside. The existence of the swastika 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:14.716 model boards is a kind of screen that surfers conduct 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:19.156 behind Nazi symbols. They can say are part of surf history, 0:05:20.156 --> 0:05:22.676 but all that feels like a diversion from the real story, 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:26.956 which is that America's shameful history of exclusion and racial 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:31.276 policing continues to this day on beaches and in coastal 0:05:31.276 --> 0:05:36.956 communities in the country's most liberal state. Mickey Dora didn't 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:41.276 invent this bigotry, but he made it a style. He 0:05:41.476 --> 0:05:44.676 is the California folk hero and avatar of youth culture 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:52.036 that made hate cool. I'm Dana Goodyear and this is 0:05:52.196 --> 0:06:21.596 Lost Hills episode five, surf Nazi. 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:29.916 My name is Dan Duwayne and I'm a writer and 0:06:29.996 --> 0:06:31.476 surfer living in San Francisco. 0:06:32.076 --> 0:06:33.756 And how did you get into the surfing. 0:06:34.636 --> 0:06:37.476 I had a cool uncle in southern California who was 0:06:37.876 --> 0:06:40.756 a great surfer, very dedicated surfer. So I kind of 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:44.996 grew up wanting to be like my cool uncle. And 0:06:45.156 --> 0:06:50.276 I maybe also you know, getting tacit implicit reassurance from 0:06:50.356 --> 0:06:52.716 him that surfing could be mine if I wanted it 0:06:52.756 --> 0:06:52.956 to be. 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:57.636 Deciding to pick up surfing should be the simplest thing 0:06:57.676 --> 0:07:00.116 in the world. You get a board, go to the beach, 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:05.076 you mess around, you figure it out. In California, by law, anyway, 0:07:05.436 --> 0:07:07.676 all the beaches are free and open to the public. 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:10.916 But it does doesn't always turn out to be so simple. 0:07:11.476 --> 0:07:12.476 It wasn't for Dan. 0:07:13.916 --> 0:07:17.356 I was really an outsider to the culture because I 0:07:17.396 --> 0:07:18.996 was a Berkeley kid, you know, I hadn't grown up 0:07:18.996 --> 0:07:23.636 in San Clementy or Malibu or San Diego. And when 0:07:23.716 --> 0:07:26.596 I started surfing a lot, like at age twenty one 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:29.836 in Santa Cruz, the sort of you know, local hierarchy 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:32.076 who gets to get a wave, who doesn't was more intense, 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:35.276 and I was really an outsider, and I felt that 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:39.356 pretty acutely, you know. I had to kind of fight 0:07:39.396 --> 0:07:39.996 my way in. 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:42.956 Like happens to a lot of people who fall in 0:07:42.956 --> 0:07:46.636 love with surfing. Dan got a little obsessed. He wanted 0:07:46.636 --> 0:07:49.876 to learn about the history of the sport, specifically in California. 0:07:50.476 --> 0:07:53.356 He went down a rabbit hole of online photos, books, 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:57.316 and early surf movies, and that led him straight to Mickey. 0:07:59.036 --> 0:08:01.876 You can't really immerse yourself in a self education project 0:08:01.916 --> 0:08:06.356 about surf culture without at some point bumping into stories 0:08:06.356 --> 0:08:08.996 of Mickey Dora in the early days of Malibu, and 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:11.196 that the heart of it all was this guy, Mickey 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:16.156 Dora was this incredibly beautiful surfer, I mean a beautiful man. 0:08:16.236 --> 0:08:19.716 So a very good looking guy, very very handsome guy, 0:08:20.356 --> 0:08:22.916 and to be honest, enviably handsome in a ways a 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:24.596 lot of ways I wished I looked. 0:08:24.636 --> 0:08:24.796 You know. 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:27.276 He had this beautiful, deep tan and this perfect kind 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:30.556 of athletic build, and the way he surfed was just 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:35.196 gorgeous and catlike. And he kind of emerges as really 0:08:35.236 --> 0:08:38.956 the central culture hero, I would say, of California surfing. 0:08:39.436 --> 0:08:42.916 And there were aspects of his identity that I never 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:45.716 really totally loved to begin with. Like, he was a 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:48.836 pretty wealthy kid, so he you know, he drove beautiful 0:08:48.876 --> 0:08:52.476 cars and wore beautiful clothes and had a kind of 0:08:52.916 --> 0:08:56.596 surly localism. He's credited by many with being the sort 0:08:56.596 --> 0:08:58.356 of originator of localism. 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:01.956 This was what Dan encountered when he was first getting 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:10.836 into surfing localism. Localism is a phenomenon throughout surfing. It's 0:09:10.876 --> 0:09:15.716 basically that some people, the self nominated locals, treat strangers 0:09:15.796 --> 0:09:18.996 with hostility because those people are likely to get in 0:09:19.036 --> 0:09:19.356 the way. 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:25.516 At the heart of surf culture, there is this inescapable problem, 0:09:25.716 --> 0:09:29.356 which is waves are a limited resource. There aren't an 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:32.916 endless number of them, and good waves that break in 0:09:32.956 --> 0:09:35.716 the right place at a good spot on that rare 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:38.356 day when the perfect swell and tide and wind all 0:09:38.396 --> 0:09:40.676 line up. I mean, there might be a lot, but 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:43.196 there just is not an infinite number of them. So 0:09:44.116 --> 0:09:45.916 if you live near them, and you've built your whole 0:09:46.036 --> 0:09:50.116 kind of life and happiness around the good feeling they 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:53.436 give you, and you've dedicated your childhood and you adolescence 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:55.356 to it, and you've spent all this time and emotional 0:09:55.476 --> 0:09:58.636 energy fighting your way into the local pack and the 0:09:58.716 --> 0:10:02.516 hierarchy and all that, those waves are really precious. They're 0:10:02.596 --> 0:10:07.396 really important gems in your life. And to have some 0:10:08.556 --> 0:10:11.236 random st strangers just show up and paddle out and 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:13.436 get in your way and take that wave that was 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:15.836 going to be your set wave, it's not great. To 0:10:15.916 --> 0:10:18.236 have a thousand of them show up and do that 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:22.036 is horrible. So that's kind of the fundamental driver I 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:25.516 think of localism in surfing and of secrecy, right, don't 0:10:25.556 --> 0:10:28.076 tell anybody about the break, don't tell anybody where we're going. 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:33.116 There have been many ugly instances of locals defending their 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:41.036 turf with actual violence for decades in Pallas Verdes, down 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:45.396 the coast from Malibu. The local Bay Boys harassed outsiders 0:10:45.476 --> 0:10:48.556 so badly throwing rocks at them from the cliffs above, 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:53.396 mocking them with blackface, that victims sued in federal court. 0:10:54.356 --> 0:10:57.676 The case was dismissed, though a state court did ban 0:10:57.916 --> 0:11:00.316 twelve of the Bay Boys from the surf break for 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:03.916 a year. Then, just a few months ago, in March 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:07.116 of twenty twenty three, an appeals court judge offered an 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:10.676 opinion suggesting that localism as it was practiced in palace 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:13.476 Vera days is a violation of a state law known 0:11:13.556 --> 0:11:17.556 as the Coastal Act, which ensures equal access to the coast. 0:11:18.516 --> 0:11:20.676 So this is an issue that has not gone away. 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:23.956 There used to be stories about, you know, guys would 0:11:23.996 --> 0:11:25.676 get out of the water and find their car tires 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:28.836 slashed and surf wax rubbed all over the windshield. Or 0:11:29.236 --> 0:11:31.516 I think I remember hearing once a story about a 0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:33.956 horse's head cut off, or a cow's head or something 0:11:33.996 --> 0:11:38.156 cut off and put in their driver's seat. I did once, 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:41.876 a long time ago, do a surf travel story about 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:45.716 a remote, somewhat secret surf spot in far northern California 0:11:45.756 --> 0:11:49.196 that got me like actual death threats emailed to me, 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:51.756 and it was sort of an amazing thing because I 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:54.076 didn't say what the place was called, and I didn't 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:58.196 say where. I put it in an eighty mile stretch 0:11:58.236 --> 0:12:01.356 of the northern California coast. That was as precise as 0:12:01.396 --> 0:12:06.996 I got. And I got and some guy up there 0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:09.556 went nuts and you know, said I'm coming for your family, 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:13.036 and you know, I don't know it. It was upsetting 0:12:13.036 --> 0:12:13.476 for a while. 0:12:14.596 --> 0:12:15.516 That is extreme. 0:12:16.676 --> 0:12:17.756 It was pretty extreme. 0:12:18.396 --> 0:12:22.316 Yeah. 0:12:22.676 --> 0:12:27.996 Mickey Dora claimed that he invented localism and at Malibu 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:30.476 he was famous for pushing people off waves. 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:39.636 He glamorized the idea of being aggressive in pushing other 0:12:39.676 --> 0:12:41.916 people out of the way on a wave and the 0:12:41.956 --> 0:12:44.436 idea that the wave that I take off on belongs 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:47.236 to me, and that became codified. 0:12:48.436 --> 0:12:51.356 This is Jim Kempton from the California Surf Museum. Again, 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:54.596 Jim knew Mickey in his prime. 0:12:55.516 --> 0:13:01.156 And that created a sense that was bound to be 0:13:01.196 --> 0:13:06.476 a conflict. And so you wouldn't necessarily say that Mickey 0:13:06.556 --> 0:13:10.796 invented that or that he created the environment, but he 0:13:10.916 --> 0:13:15.636 definitely glamorized it, and he definitely popularized the idea of 0:13:15.676 --> 0:13:18.796 that and that whether they knew it or not that 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:21.276 frickled down in every place there was. 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:26.396 Localism isn't always racist, but often the factors that make 0:13:26.436 --> 0:13:30.556 you an insider or an outsider break cleanly across racial lines. 0:13:31.476 --> 0:13:33.756 Do you live by the coast, did you go to 0:13:33.796 --> 0:13:36.436 school with the people in the water. Did you grow 0:13:36.516 --> 0:13:40.076 up on this beach? Or are you not from around 0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:45.636 here on the beach? In Malibu, Mickey was always spoiling 0:13:45.676 --> 0:13:49.036 for a fight as he patrolled the waves he thought 0:13:49.076 --> 0:13:52.356 belonged to him. He used the symbols and the signs 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:55.436 and the language of the most destructive hate group in 0:13:55.516 --> 0:14:12.396 modern history. Mickey, in spite of being an immigrant himself 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:15.636 and having a dad with a heavy accent, leaned hard 0:14:15.756 --> 0:14:19.516 into surf break xenophobia. In a piece he wrote for 0:14:19.596 --> 0:14:23.276 Surfer Magazine in nineteen sixty seven, he described Malibu as 0:14:23.316 --> 0:14:29.076 a place taken over by quote kooks of all colors, fags, finkx, 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:34.156 and a thousand other social deviations unquote. In a nineteen 0:14:34.236 --> 0:14:37.756 ninety eight interview in Surfer's Journal, Nat Young, a famous 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:42.196 Australian surfer of the day who knew Mickey well, said quote, 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:46.556 He's a supreme racist, always has been. When I was younger. 0:14:46.596 --> 0:14:48.996 I believed it was all just in mirth, that he 0:14:49.156 --> 0:14:53.396 was just jivant at all. But no, he believes absolutely 0:14:53.556 --> 0:14:59.676 in white supremacy end quote. At some point Mickey started 0:14:59.716 --> 0:15:01.996 showing up to the beach in an s S leather 0:15:02.076 --> 0:15:06.196 trench coat. That's the uniform of the Nazi racial elite 0:15:06.276 --> 0:15:10.676 who controlled the concentration camps. And when Mickey described his 0:15:10.756 --> 0:15:14.276 efforts to control the wave at Malibu, he didn't hold back. 0:15:15.116 --> 0:15:18.036 This is from a nineteen sixty three interview titled The 0:15:18.076 --> 0:15:21.316 Angry young Man of Surfing, which ran in Surfguide. 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:22.396 Quote. 0:15:22.676 --> 0:15:24.596 These guys take off in front of me, and they're 0:15:24.636 --> 0:15:27.076 scared to death. They know I'm behind them, but they 0:15:27.116 --> 0:15:29.276 never know what I'll do next. They run up and 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:30.956 put their feet on the nose, and I give them 0:15:30.996 --> 0:15:34.116 a little nudge in the tailblock. They start to corkscrew. 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:38.636 It never fails. I messerschmidt them, I dogfight them, I 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:40.836 go behind and below them, and they're so out of 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:48.396 control they simply crack up. Unquote. This calls for some unpacking. 0:15:49.916 --> 0:15:53.876 To Mickey, wave enforcement was a military operation, a dog 0:15:53.916 --> 0:15:58.076 fight out of World War Two, only he puts himself 0:15:58.316 --> 0:16:01.556 on the side of the nazis. A mezser Schmidt is 0:16:01.596 --> 0:16:04.836 a German fighter plane, one that was built using slave 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:09.716 labor in concentration camps. That's what Mickey imagines who surfboard 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:15.396 to be. So let's talk about swastikas. Yeah, this is 0:16:15.436 --> 0:16:18.236 the writer Dan Dwayne Again. I asked him when he 0:16:18.276 --> 0:16:22.236 first remembers seeing Nazi imagery associated with surfing. 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:25.396 I must have been twenty one years old. Let's say 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:28.196 one day I was at a break in Santa Cruz 0:16:28.196 --> 0:16:32.796 called Pleasure Point right in town, beautiful Beautiful Point break, 0:16:33.716 --> 0:16:36.276 and there was a swastika spray painted on a sea 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:39.516 wall where I was about to walk down to the beach. 0:16:39.716 --> 0:16:41.636 You know, I think it said something like kooks go home. 0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:46.836 At the time, I read it as Wow, there's like 0:16:46.876 --> 0:16:49.356 some hardcore nasty locals around here who don't want me, 0:16:49.796 --> 0:16:50.516 people like me. 0:16:50.756 --> 0:16:51.516 To paddle out. 0:16:51.556 --> 0:16:54.036 But it was sort of later over the years that 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:57.636 I started to see more swastika imagery in surf culture 0:16:57.676 --> 0:16:59.996 that I kept sort of thinking back to and remembering 0:17:00.116 --> 0:17:03.316 that swastika that I'd seen and wondering how to make 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:04.556 sense of it and what did it mean. 0:17:05.476 --> 0:17:08.396 Surf culture has been a wash in Nazi symbols from 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:13.636 the moment it went mainstream. Swastikas, iron crosses, SS uniforms, 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:18.036 they're all over the place in American surf history. In 0:17:18.076 --> 0:17:20.916 the late fifties and early sixties, a five part surf 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:26.116 documentary called Search for Surf came out. Search for Surf 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:29.116 includes a segment shot at Wind and Sea Beach down 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:32.356 the coast from Malibu in La Joya. In nineteen fifty nine, 0:17:32.636 --> 0:17:35.596 the year the Gidget movie came out, young men in 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:38.716 Nazi uniforms ride to Boggins down a storm drain to 0:17:38.756 --> 0:17:42.036 the beach. They're greeted by a cheering crowd of shirtless 0:17:42.076 --> 0:17:48.236 teenagers waving swastika flags. The scene is absurd, but that 0:17:48.276 --> 0:17:51.916 doesn't make it any less appalling. The movie was directed 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:54.676 by Greg Nol, a big wave surfer who was also 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:55.876 a good friend of Mickey's. 0:17:56.836 --> 0:18:01.236 Greg famously talked about all of the stuff that surfers 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:06.516 did in the fifties, especially it was designed with nothing 0:18:06.596 --> 0:18:08.756 more than to piss people off. 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:12.076 Surf historian Matt Warshaw, So. 0:18:11.996 --> 0:18:13.716 He said, well, you know, you'd paint a swastik on 0:18:13.756 --> 0:18:17.076 your car and would piss people off. So you'd paint 0:18:17.076 --> 0:18:20.396 two swastikas on the car, one on each side, and 0:18:20.476 --> 0:18:24.156 for him that was on the same level as going 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:27.076 to school as he did in a trench coat with 0:18:27.476 --> 0:18:29.956 each pocket filled with rotten fish. He would just sit 0:18:29.996 --> 0:18:32.836 there until someone said, what does that smell? And it 0:18:32.876 --> 0:18:35.596 was just him trying to piss people off. It was 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:40.356 kids from fourteen to eighteen, mostly doing anything they could 0:18:40.796 --> 0:18:43.036 to get a rise out of the squares. 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:46.796 Then there's the craze in the nineteen sixties where southern 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:52.116 California surfers were wearing Nazi stormtrooper helmets while surfing. I 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:55.436 don't think they were worried about concussions. I don't really 0:18:55.476 --> 0:18:58.596 know what they were doing. I do know that it's 0:18:58.596 --> 0:19:01.836 hard for the surf community to explain, so they end 0:19:01.956 --> 0:19:04.236 up saying a bunch of different things, none of which 0:19:04.276 --> 0:19:09.116 makes sense. It was to piss off the older general, 0:19:09.676 --> 0:19:10.436 to be a rebel. 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:14.236 I saw it, but I didn't really realize the ramifications 0:19:14.276 --> 0:19:14.516 of it. 0:19:14.556 --> 0:19:17.636 You know, when you're a kid, it's. 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:20.916 Just part of their kind of having an attitude, you know, rebel. 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:23.876 Or something, and you know it was a celebration of 0:19:23.916 --> 0:19:25.316 the victory over the Nazis. 0:19:25.916 --> 0:19:30.156 The people from the war came home with these emblems 0:19:30.196 --> 0:19:33.796 and drawings and stuff, and they brought it home as 0:19:33.876 --> 0:19:35.516 souvenirs from having fought in. 0:19:35.476 --> 0:19:36.076 World War Two. 0:19:36.756 --> 0:19:38.516 It was a cool ancient symbol. 0:19:39.356 --> 0:19:42.636 I do know that, Like, that's an ancient symbol, you 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:45.756 know that started in Egypt, and you know the American 0:19:45.796 --> 0:19:48.196 Indians used it widely, you know, and they called it 0:19:48.196 --> 0:19:49.196 the tumbling logs. 0:19:49.236 --> 0:19:51.996 You know, they didn't know what they were doing. 0:19:52.676 --> 0:19:56.676 There's an enormous ignorance of any of the of the 0:19:56.796 --> 0:20:00.876 actual representations that those are what they stand for. 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:07.396 But Mickey was supposedly so smart and so worldly, he 0:20:07.596 --> 0:20:12.116 definitely knew the implications of a swastika. Anti Semitism was 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:15.956 a style, and Mickey helped set the trend. He was 0:20:15.996 --> 0:20:21.196 the guy surfer magazine called Mister Malibu, Everyone's idol, and 0:20:21.276 --> 0:20:24.796 he was wearing an SS leather trench coat on the beach. 0:20:26.236 --> 0:20:30.916 What was Mickey up to with his SS leather trench 0:20:30.956 --> 0:20:32.676 coat and his swastikas? 0:20:33.236 --> 0:20:38.596 So I think they were attention getters. 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:41.076 Surf Museum president Jim Kempton. 0:20:42.036 --> 0:20:47.436 Mickey was almost always in costume. Truly, it was rare 0:20:47.516 --> 0:20:52.516 for Mickey not to be like rock stars are why 0:20:52.596 --> 0:20:57.236 do rock stars wear you know, sequins and fringe and 0:20:58.596 --> 0:21:03.116 leather pants because they're rock stars, right, It's to indicate 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:08.996 to other people that I am not just a regular guy, 0:21:09.316 --> 0:21:12.316 I'm someone. 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:18.276 Well into the eighties, agrosurfers called themselves surf Nazis, and yes, 0:21:18.356 --> 0:21:21.556 these symbols have also been used by other rebellious cultures, 0:21:21.996 --> 0:21:26.516 biker gangs, British punk rockers. When it comes to surf culture, 0:21:26.636 --> 0:21:30.836 what everyone, even Kathy Kohner Zuckerman, will tell you is no, 0:21:31.676 --> 0:21:35.036 it isn't what you think. No one who loves surfing 0:21:35.156 --> 0:21:39.636 wants all the Nazi references to mean anything. One thing 0:21:39.676 --> 0:21:42.876 you hear a lot from swastika apologists is that it 0:21:42.956 --> 0:21:47.036 was a different time. It was it was a time 0:21:47.436 --> 0:21:50.756 that was much closer to the horrors of the Holocaust. 0:21:51.316 --> 0:21:52.236 Writer Dan Dwayne. 0:21:53.356 --> 0:21:57.516 There has been this argument that the early swastikas didn't 0:21:57.556 --> 0:22:02.316 mean fascist sympathy, that they were just you know, symbols 0:22:02.316 --> 0:22:04.196 of rebellion, that they were just, you know, whatever the 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:06.316 enemy is wearing, that's what I want to wear because 0:22:06.356 --> 0:22:07.516 then I'm like a bad dude. 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:08.316 Or that. 0:22:08.396 --> 0:22:11.356 In the early movies with the you know, with the 0:22:11.356 --> 0:22:14.236 Gestapo uniforms, or whatever it was, the SS uniforms that 0:22:14.436 --> 0:22:18.156 it's a form of prank and play and culture play. 0:22:18.876 --> 0:22:21.396 And I'm not ready to say that that's one hundred 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:24.956 percent wrong. I'm just not ready to say that it's 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:27.396 one hundred percent right either. There's just too much in 0:22:27.436 --> 0:22:30.916 the air at the time. It's too close in historical 0:22:30.996 --> 0:22:33.836 time to you know, that movie is made in the 0:22:33.836 --> 0:22:38.436 fifties with Auschwitz, what is it, you know, ten years before. 0:22:38.556 --> 0:22:40.956 I mean, Auschwitz is more recent to that movie than 0:22:41.756 --> 0:22:44.516 nine to eleven is to us. It's it's not you know, 0:22:44.996 --> 0:22:51.676 it's not ancient history. 0:22:50.836 --> 0:22:54.556 For Dan. It's a quick slide from the nastiness Mickey 0:22:54.556 --> 0:22:57.916 Dora put into the world to the nastiness that still 0:22:57.956 --> 0:23:00.436 exists in certain pockets of surf culture. 0:23:00.996 --> 0:23:03.116 So now we've got like a rich kid in fancy 0:23:03.156 --> 0:23:06.996 sunglasses and fancy clothes and a fancy sports car, passing 0:23:07.076 --> 0:23:11.196 bad checks and putting swastikas on his bored and being 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:13.556 a jerk to outsiders because they don't know how to surf, 0:23:13.836 --> 0:23:18.036 and spewing all this vile stuff. I don't know, it 0:23:18.156 --> 0:23:21.156 just kind of started to turn, you know, green and 0:23:21.276 --> 0:23:23.996 gross inside and feel to me like there's something wrong 0:23:24.036 --> 0:23:25.436 with this, like this is this guy? 0:23:25.556 --> 0:23:25.956 I don't know? 0:23:27.516 --> 0:23:30.396 Why? Is this creep? Our big culture hero? 0:23:42.316 --> 0:23:46.636 In public, Mickey was slippery about his identity, even as 0:23:46.676 --> 0:23:49.356 he wore the iron cross and the SS trench and 0:23:49.476 --> 0:23:53.156 rode the swastikaboard. He referred to himself as a quote 0:23:53.396 --> 0:23:57.156 wandering Rabbi. One of his closest friends at the end 0:23:57.196 --> 0:24:00.036 of his life told me he had always assumed Mickey 0:24:00.116 --> 0:24:05.236 was part Jewish on his Hungarian side. It's possible the 0:24:05.356 --> 0:24:07.756 name Dora does come up in a couple of Holocaust 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:11.836 memorial records from Budapest, Rush, but Mickey's half sister, Pauline, 0:24:11.876 --> 0:24:14.476 who didn't want to be interviewed, wrote in an email 0:24:14.516 --> 0:24:16.716 that she had never heard that the family was Jewish. 0:24:17.916 --> 0:24:20.956 I suppose I wanted it to be true because it 0:24:20.956 --> 0:24:23.476 would give a different texture to some of Mickey's behavior. 0:24:24.876 --> 0:24:28.396 Miklos Dora, Mickey's father, worked for the baron a Rothschild 0:24:28.636 --> 0:24:31.916 starting in the mid sixties. The Rothschilds are one of 0:24:31.916 --> 0:24:35.676 the oldest Jewish families in Europe, the first unconverted Jews 0:24:35.676 --> 0:24:39.036 to be inducted into the House of Lords. They're also 0:24:39.076 --> 0:24:42.636 at the center of just about every antisemitic conspiracy theory 0:24:42.676 --> 0:24:45.676 you can think of in some corners of the Internet. 0:24:46.036 --> 0:24:49.516 They're responsible for World War two and nine to eleven. 0:24:51.676 --> 0:24:55.116 Mickey loved this connection to the aristocracy. When he had 0:24:55.156 --> 0:24:57.916 the chance, he stole some letterhead from the baron's desk 0:24:58.036 --> 0:25:02.236 and gleefully used it to conduct his correspondence. Micky also 0:25:02.356 --> 0:25:05.596 embraced the idea that he had a Romani background, calling 0:25:05.676 --> 0:25:09.756 himself the Gipsy Cavalier. Like the Jews, the Roma were 0:25:09.756 --> 0:25:15.356 considered quote racially inferior and murdered by the Nazis. But 0:25:15.396 --> 0:25:18.036