1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey Lost Hills listeners, it's Dana. I wanted to 2 00:00:22,036 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: let you know that you can hear the entire new 3 00:00:24,196 --> 00:00:27,936 Speaker 1: season of Lost Hills ad-free along with other great binge 4 00:00:27,986 --> 00:00:32,206 Speaker 1: listens by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin Plus 5 00:00:32,406 --> 00:00:35,406 Speaker 1: on the Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or 6 00:00:35,446 --> 00:00:38,456 Speaker 1: at pushkin.fm slash plus. 7 00:00:45,346 --> 00:00:47,966 Speaker 2: So the board that we're going to look at is 8 00:00:48,546 --> 00:00:50,386 Speaker 2: right over here that I'm going to take you over to. 9 00:00:50,446 --> 00:00:54,726 Speaker 2: But it's from the American Ladder Company or the Los 10 00:00:54,806 --> 00:00:56,646 Speaker 2: Angeles Ladder Company. We'll see in a moment. 11 00:00:59,196 --> 00:01:03,156 Speaker 1: I'm at the California Surf Museum in Oceanside with Jim Kempton. 12 00:01:03,576 --> 00:01:08,016 Speaker 1: He's the museum president. It's a small museum stuffed literally 13 00:01:08,056 --> 00:01:12,896 Speaker 1: to the rafters with surfboards. The collection includes the 110-pound 14 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:15,966 Speaker 1: redwood planks that were used in the early days by 15 00:01:15,986 --> 00:01:20,486 Speaker 1: people like Mickey Dora's stepdad, Gard Chapin, the fiberglass and 16 00:01:20,526 --> 00:01:24,246 Speaker 1: foam longboards that became popular after World War II, and 17 00:01:24,266 --> 00:01:29,306 Speaker 1: the tiny, light, performance shortboards many pros use today. They 18 00:01:29,446 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: even have the surfboard that professional surfer Bethany Hamilton was 19 00:01:32,896 --> 00:01:35,396 Speaker 1: riding when she lost her arm to a shark attack 20 00:01:35,456 --> 00:01:38,056 Speaker 1: when she was 13. It has a bite out of it. 21 00:01:39,766 --> 00:01:41,926 Speaker 1: But right now, I'm looking at one of the first 22 00:01:42,006 --> 00:01:46,426 Speaker 1: commercially manufactured and mass-produced surfboards in America, which came out 23 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:51,296 Speaker 1: in the 1930s. It's a thing of beauty, varnished redwood 24 00:01:51,336 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: with a balsa wood stringer. It evokes an old woody 25 00:01:54,556 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 1: station wagon crossed with a totem pole. 26 00:01:56,816 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 2: And at the very bottom of those boards was where 27 00:02:01,736 --> 00:02:02,636 Speaker 2: they put the swastika. 28 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:09,166 Speaker 1: The first mass-produced surfboards in America had swastikas on them. 29 00:02:10,056 --> 00:02:15,866 Speaker 1: They were called, wait for it, swastika boards. That's right. 30 00:02:16,566 --> 00:02:20,546 Speaker 1: America's original surf brand is associated with what is now 31 00:02:20,706 --> 00:02:23,786 Speaker 1: a universal symbol of white supremacy and hate. 32 00:02:25,606 --> 00:02:26,046 Speaker 3: Right there. 33 00:02:26,406 --> 00:02:28,106 Speaker 1: And was it red or black or? 34 00:02:28,806 --> 00:02:32,946 Speaker 2: It was painted, it was generally black. It was actually 35 00:02:32,986 --> 00:02:37,086 Speaker 2: carved on them. So they were, yeah. 36 00:02:37,686 --> 00:02:37,856 Speaker 3: Yeah. 37 00:02:40,016 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: Swastika boards were made in L.A. by a company that 38 00:02:42,816 --> 00:02:46,136 Speaker 1: built prefab homes, and they were a huge hit. 39 00:02:46,896 --> 00:02:49,856 Speaker 2: They made all kinds of wooden products like ladders, and 40 00:02:49,896 --> 00:02:52,616 Speaker 2: they made these surfboards. And they put those swastikas on 41 00:02:52,636 --> 00:02:55,036 Speaker 2: them for reasons unbeknownst to anyone, I think, now. 42 00:02:55,766 --> 00:02:59,186 Speaker 1: A flyer advertising the boards shows a muscular, fair-haired man 43 00:02:59,326 --> 00:03:02,246 Speaker 1: sliding down the face of a wave, a giant swastika 44 00:03:02,286 --> 00:03:06,206 Speaker 1: in the background. Enjoy the thrill of a swastika is 45 00:03:06,246 --> 00:03:06,826 Speaker 1: the slogan. 46 00:03:08,226 --> 00:03:11,376 Speaker 2: The swastika... It has a very interesting story, both in 47 00:03:11,436 --> 00:03:16,156 Speaker 2: surfing and outside of it. It's an incredibly iconic symbol, 48 00:03:16,856 --> 00:03:19,376 Speaker 2: like the cross or the crescent or so many others. 49 00:03:19,816 --> 00:03:23,216 Speaker 2: And it wasn't until the Nazis adopted it that anything 50 00:03:23,256 --> 00:03:26,496 Speaker 2: was thought of it. But as soon as Hitler actually 51 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:30,066 Speaker 2: invaded Poland, they stopped making them. 52 00:03:32,046 --> 00:03:37,566 Speaker 1: In 1938, the board was renamed the Waikiki Model. 1938 53 00:03:37,786 --> 00:03:41,386 Speaker 1: was a momentous year for Hitler's campaign in Europe. It 54 00:03:41,406 --> 00:03:45,206 Speaker 1: was the year of Anschluss, the German army's annexation of Austria, 55 00:03:45,946 --> 00:03:50,996 Speaker 1: and Kristallnacht, a devastating pogrom against Jews in Germany, Austria, 56 00:03:51,296 --> 00:03:56,876 Speaker 1: and German-occupied Czechoslovakia. The Waikiki model board didn't come with 57 00:03:56,936 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 1: a swastika on it. I happen to think 1938 is 58 00:04:02,216 --> 00:04:05,476 Speaker 1: a little late to have dropped the swastika branding. All 59 00:04:05,496 --> 00:04:08,456 Speaker 1: the way back in the 1920s, Hitler had published Mein 60 00:04:08,516 --> 00:04:11,536 Speaker 1: Kampf with a swastika on the cover, describing it as 61 00:04:11,576 --> 00:04:17,096 Speaker 1: a symbol of Aryan victory. But in California, swastika boards 62 00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: were in circulation for as long as the boards lasted. 63 00:04:21,016 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: Surfers didn't seem to be ashamed of them. They cherished them. 64 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:29,636 Speaker 1: Gard Chapin, Mickey's stepdad, was into making his own surfboards. 65 00:04:30,346 --> 00:04:32,846 Speaker 1: And when Mickey got into surfing, Gard made one for him, 66 00:04:33,286 --> 00:04:36,766 Speaker 1: shaving down an old swastika board. This would have been 67 00:04:36,806 --> 00:04:40,696 Speaker 1: around 1950, when the atrocities committed by the Nazis under 68 00:04:40,716 --> 00:04:43,096 Speaker 1: the sign of the swastika were well known to the 69 00:04:43,136 --> 00:04:48,076 Speaker 1: entire world. The question was, did surfers even care? Or 70 00:04:49,556 --> 00:04:52,076 Speaker 1: did that symbol gain cachet in some of their minds? 71 00:04:53,966 --> 00:04:56,346 Speaker 1: I don't know if Mickey's swastika board had an actual 72 00:04:56,426 --> 00:05:00,306 Speaker 1: swastika on it. Doesn't really matter, though. Well, it didn't 73 00:05:00,346 --> 00:05:04,416 Speaker 1: matter to Mickey. Because way, way later, Mickey would ride 74 00:05:04,456 --> 00:05:08,156 Speaker 1: an up-to-date custom fiberglass board with a big old swastika 75 00:05:08,336 --> 00:05:12,566 Speaker 1: on the underside. The existence of the swastika model boards 76 00:05:12,646 --> 00:05:15,126 Speaker 1: is a kind of screen that surfers can duck behind. 77 00:05:15,946 --> 00:05:19,126 Speaker 1: Nazi symbols, they can say, are part of surf history. 78 00:05:20,166 --> 00:05:22,676 Speaker 1: But all that feels like a diversion from the real story, 79 00:05:23,416 --> 00:05:26,936 Speaker 1: which is that America's shameful history of exclusion and racial 80 00:05:26,976 --> 00:05:31,246 Speaker 1: policing continues to this day. on beaches, and in coastal 81 00:05:31,286 --> 00:05:36,846 Speaker 1: communities in the country's most liberal state. Mickey Dora didn't 82 00:05:36,926 --> 00:05:41,366 Speaker 1: invent this bigotry, but he made it a style. He 83 00:05:41,466 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: is the California folk hero and avatar of youth culture 84 00:05:45,116 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 1: that made hate cool. I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is 85 00:05:52,136 --> 00:05:52,936 Speaker 1: Lost Hills. 86 00:05:53,996 --> 00:05:57,536 Speaker 4: Lost Hills. 87 00:06:19,026 --> 00:06:21,586 Speaker 1: Episode 5, Surf Nazi. 88 00:06:27,446 --> 00:06:29,906 Speaker 5: My name is Dan Duane, and I'm a writer and 89 00:06:29,986 --> 00:06:31,386 Speaker 5: surfer living in San Francisco. 90 00:06:32,126 --> 00:06:33,766 Speaker 1: And how did you get into surfing? 91 00:06:34,686 --> 00:06:37,426 Speaker 5: I had a cool uncle in Southern California who was 92 00:06:37,466 --> 00:06:40,606 Speaker 5: a great surfer, a very dedicated surfer. So I kind 93 00:06:40,626 --> 00:06:44,066 Speaker 5: of grew up wanting to be like my cool uncle. 94 00:06:44,866 --> 00:06:50,246 Speaker 5: And maybe also, you know, getting... tacit, implicit reassurance from 95 00:06:50,286 --> 00:06:52,646 Speaker 5: him that surfing could be mine if I wanted it 96 00:06:52,666 --> 00:06:52,906 Speaker 5: to be. 97 00:06:55,266 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 1: Deciding to pick up surfing should be the simplest thing 98 00:06:57,626 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 1: in the world. You get aboard, go to the beach, 99 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:04,396 Speaker 1: you mess around, you figure it out. In California, by 100 00:07:04,456 --> 00:07:07,136 Speaker 1: law anyway, all the beaches are free and open to 101 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:10,226 Speaker 1: the public. But it doesn't always turn out to be 102 00:07:10,306 --> 00:07:12,566 Speaker 1: so simple. It wasn't for Dan. 103 00:07:13,986 --> 00:07:17,306 Speaker 5: I was really an outsider to the culture. Because I 104 00:07:17,346 --> 00:07:18,906 Speaker 5: was a Berkeley kid, you know, I hadn't grown up 105 00:07:18,946 --> 00:07:23,646 Speaker 5: in San Clemente or Malibu or San Diego. And when 106 00:07:23,706 --> 00:07:26,736 Speaker 5: I started surfing a lot, like at age 21 in 107 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:29,946 Speaker 5: Santa Cruz, the sort of, you know, local hierarchy, who 108 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:32,036 Speaker 5: gets to get a wave, who doesn't, was more intense. 109 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,256 Speaker 5: And I was really an outsider. And I felt that 110 00:07:35,936 --> 00:07:39,336 Speaker 5: pretty acutely, you know. I had to kind of fight 111 00:07:39,376 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 5: my way in. 112 00:07:41,216 --> 00:07:42,896 Speaker 1: Like happens to a lot of people who fall in 113 00:07:42,936 --> 00:07:46,606 Speaker 1: love with surfing, Dan got a little obsessed. He wanted 114 00:07:46,646 --> 00:07:49,846 Speaker 1: to learn about the history of the sport, specifically in California. 115 00:07:50,506 --> 00:07:53,286 Speaker 1: He went down a rabbit hole of online photos, books, 116 00:07:53,366 --> 00:07:57,286 Speaker 1: and early surf movies. And that led him straight to Mickey. 117 00:07:59,046 --> 00:08:02,106 Speaker 5: You can't really immerse yourself in a self-education project about 118 00:08:02,126 --> 00:08:06,396 Speaker 5: surf culture without at some point bumping into stories of 119 00:08:06,446 --> 00:08:09,216 Speaker 5: Mickey Dora in the early days of Malibu. And at 120 00:08:09,256 --> 00:08:11,536 Speaker 5: the heart of it all was this guy, Mickey Dora, 121 00:08:11,616 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 5: was this incredible, incredibly beautiful surfer. I mean, a beautiful man. 122 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:19,746 Speaker 5: So a very good looking guy, very, very handsome guy. 123 00:08:20,386 --> 00:08:22,806 Speaker 5: And to be honest, enviably handsome in a ways, a 124 00:08:22,926 --> 00:08:24,886 Speaker 5: lot of ways I wished I looked, you know, he 125 00:08:24,906 --> 00:08:27,306 Speaker 5: had this beautiful deep tan and this perfect kind of 126 00:08:27,346 --> 00:08:31,266 Speaker 5: athletic build. And the way he surfed was just gorgeous 127 00:08:31,306 --> 00:08:35,356 Speaker 5: and cat-like. And he kind of emerges as really the 128 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:39,616 Speaker 5: central culture hero, I would say, of California surfing. And 129 00:08:40,336 --> 00:08:42,856 Speaker 5: there were aspects of his identity that I I never 130 00:08:42,936 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 5: really totally loved to begin with. Like, he was a 131 00:08:45,856 --> 00:08:49,496 Speaker 5: pretty wealthy kid, so he drove beautiful cars and wore 132 00:08:49,536 --> 00:08:54,736 Speaker 5: beautiful clothes and had a kind of surly localism. He's 133 00:08:54,816 --> 00:08:57,976 Speaker 5: credited by many with being the sort of originator of localism. 134 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:01,916 Speaker 1: This was what Dan encountered when he was first getting 135 00:09:01,936 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 1: into surfing. Localism. Localism is a phenomenon throughout surfing. It's 136 00:09:10,836 --> 00:09:15,936 Speaker 1: basically that some people, the self-nominated locals, treat strangers with 137 00:09:15,976 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: hostility because those people are likely to get in the way. 138 00:09:20,696 --> 00:09:25,446 Speaker 5: At the heart of surf culture, there is this inescapable problem, 139 00:09:25,746 --> 00:09:29,366 Speaker 5: which is waves are a limited resource. There aren't an 140 00:09:29,426 --> 00:09:32,906 Speaker 5: endless number of them. And good waves that break in 141 00:09:32,926 --> 00:09:35,736 Speaker 5: the right place at a good spot on that rare 142 00:09:35,766 --> 00:09:38,316 Speaker 5: day when the perfect swell and tide and wind all 143 00:09:38,376 --> 00:09:40,656 Speaker 5: line up, I mean, there might be a lot, but 144 00:09:40,686 --> 00:09:43,286 Speaker 5: there just is not an infinite number of them. So 145 00:09:44,166 --> 00:09:45,926 Speaker 5: if you live near them and you've built your whole 146 00:09:45,986 --> 00:09:50,066 Speaker 5: kind of life and happiness around the good feeling they 147 00:09:50,106 --> 00:09:53,346 Speaker 5: give you and you've dedicated your childhood and your adolescence 148 00:09:53,406 --> 00:09:55,346 Speaker 5: to it and you've spent all this time and emotional 149 00:09:55,386 --> 00:09:58,646 Speaker 5: energy fighting your way into the local pack and the 150 00:09:58,686 --> 00:10:02,526 Speaker 5: hierarchy and all that, those waves are really precious. They're 151 00:10:02,566 --> 00:10:07,526 Speaker 5: really important gems in your life. And to have some 152 00:10:07,546 --> 00:10:11,536 Speaker 5: random strength just show up and paddle out and get 153 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:13,576 Speaker 5: in your way and take that wave that was going 154 00:10:13,596 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 5: to be your set wave it's not it's not great 155 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,016 Speaker 5: to have a thousand of them show up and do 156 00:10:18,056 --> 00:10:21,496 Speaker 5: that is horrible so that's kind of the fundamental driver 157 00:10:21,936 --> 00:10:25,276 Speaker 5: i think of localism in surfing and of secrecy right 158 00:10:25,336 --> 00:10:27,706 Speaker 5: don't tell anybody about the break don't tell anybody where. 159 00:10:27,616 --> 00:10:31,916 Speaker 1: We're going There have been many ugly instances of locals 160 00:10:31,956 --> 00:10:40,686 Speaker 1: defending their turf with actual violence. For decades, in Palos Verdes, 161 00:10:40,826 --> 00:10:44,726 Speaker 1: down the coast from Malibu, the local Bay Boys harassed 162 00:10:44,846 --> 00:10:48,586 Speaker 1: outsiders so badly, throwing rocks at them from the cliffs above, 163 00:10:49,286 --> 00:10:53,316 Speaker 1: mocking them with blackface, that victims sued in federal court. 164 00:10:54,336 --> 00:10:57,776 Speaker 1: The case was dismissed, though a state court did ban 165 00:10:57,776 --> 00:11:00,416 Speaker 1: 12 of the Bay Boys from the surf break for 166 00:11:00,436 --> 00:11:03,896 Speaker 1: a year. Then, just a few months ago, in March 167 00:11:03,946 --> 00:11:08,146 Speaker 1: of 2023, an appeals court judge offered an opinion suggesting 168 00:11:08,186 --> 00:11:11,446 Speaker 1: that localism, as it was practiced in Palos Verdes, is 169 00:11:11,486 --> 00:11:14,826 Speaker 1: a violation of a state law known as the Coastal Act, 170 00:11:15,386 --> 00:11:18,966 Speaker 1: which ensures equal access to the coast. So this is 171 00:11:19,006 --> 00:11:20,626 Speaker 1: an issue that has not gone away. 172 00:11:21,646 --> 00:11:23,886 Speaker 5: There used to be stories about you know, guys would 173 00:11:23,986 --> 00:11:25,626 Speaker 5: get out of the water and find their car tires 174 00:11:25,706 --> 00:11:28,826 Speaker 5: slashed and surf wax rubbed all over the windshield. Or 175 00:11:29,266 --> 00:11:31,226 Speaker 5: I think I remember hearing once a story about a 176 00:11:31,586 --> 00:11:33,946 Speaker 5: horse's head cut off or a cow's head or something 177 00:11:33,986 --> 00:11:37,806 Speaker 5: cut off and put in their driver's seat. I did 178 00:11:37,946 --> 00:11:41,416 Speaker 5: once a long time ago do a surf travel story 179 00:11:41,576 --> 00:11:45,116 Speaker 5: about a remote, somewhat secret surf spot in far Northern 180 00:11:45,136 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 5: California that got me like actual death threats emailed to 181 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,346 Speaker 5: me and And it was sort of an amazing thing 182 00:11:51,406 --> 00:11:53,706 Speaker 5: because I didn't say what the place was called and 183 00:11:53,726 --> 00:11:56,206 Speaker 5: I didn't say where it, I put it in an 184 00:11:56,206 --> 00:11:59,766 Speaker 5: 80 mile stretch of the Northern California coast. That was 185 00:11:59,826 --> 00:12:05,426 Speaker 5: as precise as I got. And I got, um, uh, 186 00:12:05,566 --> 00:12:08,386 Speaker 5: and some, some guy up there went nuts and, you know, said, 187 00:12:08,406 --> 00:12:09,546 Speaker 5: I'm coming for your family. 188 00:12:09,606 --> 00:12:11,246 Speaker 4: And, you know, I don't know. 189 00:12:11,486 --> 00:12:13,386 Speaker 5: It was, it was upsetting for a while. 190 00:12:14,546 --> 00:12:15,486 Speaker 1: That is extreme. 191 00:12:15,506 --> 00:12:18,386 Speaker 5: It was pretty extreme. Yeah. 192 00:12:22,646 --> 00:12:28,016 Speaker 1: Mickey Dora claimed that he invented localism. And at Malibu, 193 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 1: he was famous for pushing people off waves. 194 00:12:31,376 --> 00:12:39,596 Speaker 2: He glamorized the idea of being aggressive in pushing other 195 00:12:39,636 --> 00:12:41,896 Speaker 2: people out of the way on a wave. And the 196 00:12:41,976 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 2: idea that the wave that I take off on belongs 197 00:12:44,416 --> 00:12:47,216 Speaker 2: to me. And that became codified. 198 00:12:48,416 --> 00:12:51,216 Speaker 1: This is Jim Kempton from the California Surf Museum again. 199 00:12:52,306 --> 00:12:54,226 Speaker 1: Jim knew Mickey in his prime. 200 00:12:55,526 --> 00:13:00,326 Speaker 2: And that created a sense that was bound to be 201 00:13:00,346 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 2: a conflict. And so you wouldn't necessarily say that Mickey 202 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:10,816 Speaker 2: invented that or that he created the environment, but he 203 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:15,576 Speaker 2: definitely glamorized it and he definitely popularized the idea of 204 00:13:15,656 --> 00:13:18,796 Speaker 2: that and that whether they knew it or not, that 205 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:21,176 Speaker 2: trickled down in every place there was. 206 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 1: Localism isn't always racist, but often the factors that make 207 00:13:26,376 --> 00:13:30,486 Speaker 1: you an insider or an outsider break cleanly across racial lines. 208 00:13:31,506 --> 00:13:33,726 Speaker 1: Do you live by the coast? Did you go to 209 00:13:33,786 --> 00:13:36,386 Speaker 1: school with the people in the water? Did you grow 210 00:13:36,466 --> 00:13:40,246 Speaker 1: up on this beach? Or are you not from around here? 211 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:45,776 Speaker 1: On the beach in Malibu, Mickey was always spoiling for 212 00:13:45,816 --> 00:13:49,406 Speaker 1: a fight. As he patrolled the waves he thought belonged 213 00:13:49,426 --> 00:13:52,566 Speaker 1: to him, he used the symbols and the signs and 214 00:13:52,586 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 1: the language of the most destructive hate group in modern history. Mickey, 215 00:14:10,576 --> 00:14:13,056 Speaker 1: in spite of being an immigrant himself and having a 216 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 1: dad with a heavy accent, leaned hard into surf break xenophobia. 217 00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: In a piece he wrote for Surfer magazine in 1967, 218 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:24,666 Speaker 1: he described Malibu as a place taken over by, quote, 219 00:14:24,686 --> 00:14:27,306 Speaker 1: In a 1998 interview in Surfer's Journal, Nat Young, a 220 00:14:27,826 --> 00:14:41,886 Speaker 1: famous Australian surfer of the day, who knew Mickey well, said, quote, 221 00:14:42,706 --> 00:14:46,426 Speaker 1: he's a supreme racist, always has been. When I was younger, 222 00:14:46,646 --> 00:14:49,006 Speaker 1: I believed it was all just in mirth, that he 223 00:14:49,046 --> 00:14:53,436 Speaker 1: was just jiving it all. But no, he believes absolutely 224 00:14:53,576 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 1: in white supremacy, unquote. At some point, Mickey started showing 225 00:15:00,036 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 1: up to the beach in an SS leather trench coat. 226 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:06,876 Speaker 1: That's the uniform of the Nazi racial elite who controlled 227 00:15:06,896 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 1: the concentration camps. And when Mickey described his efforts to 228 00:15:11,296 --> 00:15:15,276 Speaker 1: control the wave at Malibu, he didn't hold back. This 229 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:18,896 Speaker 1: is from a 1963 interview titled The Angry Young Man 230 00:15:18,936 --> 00:15:23,136 Speaker 1: of Surfing, which ran in Surf Guide. Quote, These guys 231 00:15:23,186 --> 00:15:25,256 Speaker 1: take off in front of me and they're scared to death. 232 00:15:25,686 --> 00:15:27,586 Speaker 1: They know I'm behind them, but they never know what 233 00:15:27,606 --> 00:15:29,786 Speaker 1: I'll do next. They run up and put their feet 234 00:15:29,846 --> 00:15:31,646 Speaker 1: on the nose and I give them a little nudge 235 00:15:31,766 --> 00:15:35,246 Speaker 1: in the tail block. They start to corkscrew. It never fails. 236 00:15:35,656 --> 00:15:38,176 Speaker 1: This calls for some unpacking. To Mickey, wave enforcement was 237 00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:40,356 Speaker 1: a military operation, a dogfight out of World War II. Only, 238 00:15:40,396 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: he puts himself on the side of the Nazis. A 239 00:16:00,666 --> 00:16:04,016 Speaker 1: Messerschmitt is a German fighter plane, one that was built 240 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 1: using slave labor in concentration camps. That's what Mickey imagines 241 00:16:09,016 --> 00:16:13,496 Speaker 1: his surfboard to be. So let's talk about swastikas. 242 00:16:14,016 --> 00:16:14,256 Speaker 3: Yeah. 243 00:16:15,106 --> 00:16:17,946 Speaker 1: This is the writer Dan Duane again. I asked him 244 00:16:17,966 --> 00:16:22,186 Speaker 1: when he first remembers seeing Nazi imagery associated with surfing. 245 00:16:23,426 --> 00:16:26,456 Speaker 5: I must have been 21 years old, let's say. So 246 00:16:26,526 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 5: one day I was at a break in Santa Cruz 247 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:32,686 Speaker 5: called Pleasure Point, right in town. Beautiful, beautiful Point Break. 248 00:16:33,766 --> 00:16:36,526 Speaker 5: And there was a swastika spray painted on a seawall 249 00:16:36,586 --> 00:16:39,426 Speaker 5: where I was about to walk down to the beach. 250 00:16:39,726 --> 00:16:41,526 Speaker 5: You know, I think it said something like, kooks go home. 251 00:16:42,386 --> 00:16:46,836 Speaker 5: At the time, I read it as, wow, there's like 252 00:16:46,866 --> 00:16:49,396 Speaker 5: some hardcore nasty locals around here who don't want me, 253 00:16:49,836 --> 00:16:52,076 Speaker 5: people like me, to paddle out. But it was sort 254 00:16:52,116 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 5: of later over the years that I started to see 255 00:16:54,856 --> 00:16:58,446 Speaker 5: more swastika imagery in surf culture that I kept sort 256 00:16:58,466 --> 00:17:01,166 Speaker 5: of thinking back to and remembering that swastika that I'd 257 00:17:01,246 --> 00:17:03,846 Speaker 5: seen and wondering how to make sense of it and 258 00:17:03,886 --> 00:17:04,526 Speaker 5: what did it mean. 259 00:17:05,486 --> 00:17:08,446 Speaker 1: Surf culture has been awash in Nazi symbols from the 260 00:17:08,486 --> 00:17:14,406 Speaker 1: moment it went mainstream. Swastikas, iron crosses, SS uniforms, they're 261 00:17:14,466 --> 00:17:18,146 Speaker 1: all over the place in American surf history. In the 262 00:17:18,186 --> 00:17:21,906 Speaker 1: late 50s and early 60s, a five-part surf documentary called 263 00:17:22,086 --> 00:17:26,726 Speaker 1: Search for Surf came out. Search for Surf includes a 264 00:17:26,766 --> 00:17:30,146 Speaker 1: segment shot at Windensee Beach down the coast from Malibu 265 00:17:30,226 --> 00:17:33,606 Speaker 1: in La Jolla in 1959, the year the Gidget movie 266 00:17:33,646 --> 00:17:37,866 Speaker 1: came out. Young men in Nazi uniforms ride toboggans down 267 00:17:37,906 --> 00:17:40,496 Speaker 1: a storm drain to the beach. They're greeted by a 268 00:17:40,546 --> 00:17:46,456 Speaker 1: cheering crowd of shirtless teenagers waving swastika flags. The scene 269 00:17:46,516 --> 00:17:49,876 Speaker 1: is absurd, but that doesn't make it any less appalling. 270 00:17:50,906 --> 00:17:53,526 Speaker 1: The movie was directed by Greg Knoll, a big wave 271 00:17:53,566 --> 00:17:55,736 Speaker 1: surfer who was also a good friend of Mickey's. 272 00:17:56,856 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 6: Greg famously talked about all of the stuff that surfers 273 00:18:01,236 --> 00:18:06,476 Speaker 6: did in the 50s, especially. It was designed with nothing 274 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 6: more than to piss people off. 275 00:18:09,216 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: Surf historian Matt Warshaw. 276 00:18:11,776 --> 00:18:13,686 Speaker 6: So he said, you know, you'd paint a swastika on 277 00:18:13,706 --> 00:18:16,786 Speaker 6: your car and it would piss people off. So you'd 278 00:18:16,806 --> 00:18:19,006 Speaker 6: paint two swastikas on the car, one on each side. 279 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:23,816 Speaker 6: And for him, that was on the same level as 280 00:18:23,856 --> 00:18:26,826 Speaker 6: going to school as he did in a trench coat 281 00:18:26,926 --> 00:18:29,726 Speaker 6: with each pocket filled with rotten fish. He would just 282 00:18:29,766 --> 00:18:32,686 Speaker 6: sit there until someone said, what does that smell? And 283 00:18:32,706 --> 00:18:35,446 Speaker 6: it was just him trying to piss people off. It 284 00:18:35,486 --> 00:18:39,766 Speaker 6: was kids from 14 to 18 mostly doing anything they 285 00:18:39,806 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 6: could to get a rise out of the squares. 286 00:18:44,286 --> 00:18:47,396 Speaker 1: Then there's the craze in the 1960s where Southern California 287 00:18:47,456 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: surfers were wearing Nazi stormtrooper helmets while surfing. I don't 288 00:18:52,416 --> 00:18:55,576 Speaker 1: think they were worried about concussions. I don't really know 289 00:18:55,696 --> 00:18:58,816 Speaker 1: what they were doing. I do know that it's hard 290 00:18:58,856 --> 00:19:02,026 Speaker 1: for the surf community to explain. So they end up 291 00:19:02,046 --> 00:19:04,646 Speaker 1: saying a bunch of different things, none of which make sense. 292 00:19:06,646 --> 00:19:09,926 Speaker 1: It was to piss off the older generation, to be 293 00:19:09,966 --> 00:19:10,286 Speaker 1: a rebel. 294 00:19:11,326 --> 00:19:14,186 Speaker 2: I saw it, but I didn't really realize the ramifications 295 00:19:14,286 --> 00:19:15,646 Speaker 2: of it, you know, when you're a kid. 296 00:19:15,666 --> 00:19:19,746 Speaker 5: It's just part of their kind of having an attitude 297 00:19:19,766 --> 00:19:20,746 Speaker 5: of being a rebel or. 298 00:19:20,696 --> 00:19:21,516 Speaker 3: Something, you know. 299 00:19:22,216 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 1: It was a celebration of the victory over the Nazis. 300 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:30,076 Speaker 7: The people from the war came home with these emblems 301 00:19:30,176 --> 00:19:33,786 Speaker 7: and drawings and stuff, and they brought it home as 302 00:19:33,866 --> 00:19:36,086 Speaker 7: souvenirs from having fought in World War II. 303 00:19:36,806 --> 00:19:38,466 Speaker 1: It was a cool, ancient symbol. 304 00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:43,526 Speaker 8: I do know that that's an ancient symbol that started 305 00:19:43,586 --> 00:19:47,836 Speaker 8: in Egypt. The American Indians used it widely, and they 306 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 8: called it the tumbling logs. 307 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 1: They didn't know what they were doing. 308 00:19:52,656 --> 00:19:58,926 Speaker 2: There's an enormous ignorance of any of the actual representations 309 00:19:58,946 --> 00:20:00,876 Speaker 2: that those are, what they stand for. 310 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:07,416 Speaker 1: But Mickey was supposedly so smart and so worldly, he 311 00:20:07,596 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 1: definitely knew the implications of a swastika. Anti-Semitism was a style, 312 00:20:13,176 --> 00:20:16,356 Speaker 1: and Mickey helped set the trend. He was the guy 313 00:20:16,416 --> 00:20:21,546 Speaker 1: Surfer Magazine called Mr. Malibu, everyone's idol, and he was 314 00:20:21,586 --> 00:20:26,376 Speaker 1: wearing an SS leather trench coat on the beach. What 315 00:20:26,416 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 1: was Mickey up to with his SS leather trench coat 316 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:32,596 Speaker 1: and his swastikas? 317 00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 2: So, I think they were attention getters. 318 00:20:39,136 --> 00:20:41,126 Speaker 1: Surf Museum President Jim Kempton. 319 00:20:42,096 --> 00:20:43,826 Speaker 2: Mickey was almost always in costume. 320 00:20:45,726 --> 00:20:46,066 Speaker 3: Truly. 321 00:20:46,766 --> 00:20:51,496 Speaker 2: It was rare for Mickey not to Be like rock 322 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:57,406 Speaker 2: stars are. Why do rock stars wear sequins and fringe 323 00:20:58,206 --> 00:21:03,106 Speaker 2: and leather pants? Because they're rock stars. It's to indicate 324 00:21:03,166 --> 00:21:09,086 Speaker 2: to other people that I am not just a regular guy. 325 00:21:09,326 --> 00:21:10,106 Speaker 2: I'm someone. 326 00:21:12,366 --> 00:21:18,206 Speaker 1: Well into the 80s, agro-surfers called themselves surf Nazis. And yes, 327 00:21:18,346 --> 00:21:21,466 Speaker 1: these symbols have also been used by other rebellious cultures, 328 00:21:22,026 --> 00:21:26,456 Speaker 1: biker gangs, British punk rockers. When it comes to surf culture, 329 00:21:26,616 --> 00:21:30,976 Speaker 1: what everyone, even Kathy Kohn or Zuckerman, will tell you is, no, 330 00:21:31,696 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 1: it isn't what you think. No one who loves surfing 331 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:39,616 Speaker 1: wants all the Nazi references to mean anything. One thing 332 00:21:39,656 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: you hear a lot from swastika apologists is that it 333 00:21:42,876 --> 00:21:47,226 Speaker 1: was a different time. It was. It was a time... 334 00:21:47,426 --> 00:21:50,346 Speaker 1: that was much closer to the horrors of the Holocaust. 335 00:21:51,366 --> 00:21:52,206 Speaker 1: Writer Dan Duane. 336 00:21:53,346 --> 00:21:57,156 Speaker 5: There has been this argument that the early swastikas didn't 337 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:02,276 Speaker 5: mean fascist sympathy. That they were just, you know, symbols 338 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 5: of rebellion. That they were just, you know, whatever the 339 00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:06,296 Speaker 5: enemy is wearing, that's what I want to wear, because 340 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:08,706 Speaker 5: then I'm like a bad dude. Or that in the 341 00:22:08,986 --> 00:22:11,866 Speaker 5: early surf movies with the, you know, with the Gestapo 342 00:22:11,906 --> 00:22:14,626 Speaker 5: uniforms or whatever it was, the SS uniforms, that it's 343 00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 5: a form of pranking and play and culture play. And 344 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:22,916 Speaker 5: I'm not ready to say that that's a hundred percent wrong. 345 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 5: I'm just not ready to say that it's a hundred 346 00:22:25,256 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 5: percent right either. There's just too much in the air 347 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,576 Speaker 5: at the time. It's too close in historical time to, 348 00:22:32,496 --> 00:22:35,066 Speaker 5: you know, that movie is made in the fifties with Auschwitz. 349 00:22:36,246 --> 00:22:36,586 Speaker 3: What is it? 350 00:22:36,866 --> 00:22:39,666 Speaker 5: You know, 10 years before, I mean, Auschwitz is more 351 00:22:39,726 --> 00:22:43,386 Speaker 5: recent to that movie than nine 11 is to us. It's, 352 00:22:43,566 --> 00:22:46,266 Speaker 5: it's not, you know, It's not ancient history. 353 00:22:50,816 --> 00:22:54,476 Speaker 1: For Dan, it's a quick slide from the nastiness Mickey 354 00:22:54,536 --> 00:22:57,856 Speaker 1: Dora put into the world to the nastiness that still 355 00:22:57,916 --> 00:23:00,416 Speaker 1: exists in certain pockets of surf culture. 356 00:23:01,016 --> 00:23:03,096 Speaker 5: So now we've got like a rich kid in fancy 357 00:23:03,136 --> 00:23:06,976 Speaker 5: sunglasses and fancy clothes and a fancy sports car passing 358 00:23:07,016 --> 00:23:11,166 Speaker 5: bad checks and putting swastikas on his board and being 359 00:23:11,206 --> 00:23:13,486 Speaker 5: a jerk to outsiders because they don't know how to surf, 360 00:23:13,846 --> 00:23:18,046 Speaker 5: and spewing all this vile stuff, I don't know, it 361 00:23:18,086 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 5: just kind of started to turn, you know, green and 362 00:23:21,256 --> 00:23:23,976 Speaker 5: gross inside and feel to me like there's something wrong 363 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:25,956 Speaker 5: with this. Like there's just this guy, I don't know. 364 00:23:27,496 --> 00:23:30,356 Speaker 5: Why is this creep our big culture hero? 365 00:23:42,296 --> 00:23:46,566 Speaker 1: In public, Mickey was slippery about his identity. Even as 366 00:23:46,626 --> 00:23:49,386 Speaker 1: he wore the Iron Cross and the SS trench and 367 00:23:49,426 --> 00:23:53,066 Speaker 1: rode the swastika board, he referred to himself as a, quote, 368 00:23:53,346 --> 00:23:57,126 Speaker 1: wandering rabbi. One of his closest friends at the end 369 00:23:57,146 --> 00:23:59,976 Speaker 1: of his life told me he had always assumed Mickey 370 00:24:00,006 --> 00:24:05,316 Speaker 1: was part Jewish, on his Hungarian side. It's possible. The 371 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:07,696 Speaker 1: name Dora does come up in a couple of Holocaust 372 00:24:07,736 --> 00:24:12,296 Speaker 1: memorial records from Budapest. But Mickey's half-sister, Pauline, who didn't 373 00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:14,716 Speaker 1: want to be interviewed, wrote in an email that she 374 00:24:14,736 --> 00:24:18,496 Speaker 1: had never heard that the family was Jewish. I suppose 375 00:24:18,816 --> 00:24:21,276 Speaker 1: I wanted it to be true, because it would give 376 00:24:21,296 --> 00:24:25,726 Speaker 1: a different texture to some of Mickey's behavior. Miklos Dora, 377 00:24:25,826 --> 00:24:29,026 Speaker 1: Mickey's father, worked for the Baron de Rothschild starting in 378 00:24:29,046 --> 00:24:32,806 Speaker 1: the mid-60s. The Rothschilds are one of the oldest Jewish 379 00:24:32,866 --> 00:24:36,266 Speaker 1: families in Europe, the first unconverted Jews to be inducted 380 00:24:36,366 --> 00:24:39,626 Speaker 1: into the House of Lords. They're also at the center 381 00:24:39,706 --> 00:24:43,326 Speaker 1: of just about every anti-Semitic conspiracy theory you can think of. 382 00:24:44,246 --> 00:24:47,236 Speaker 1: In some corners of the Internet, they're responsible for World 383 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:54,156 Speaker 1: War II and 9-11. Mickey loved this connection to the aristocracy. 384 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:57,036 Speaker 1: When he had the chance, he stole some letterhead from 385 00:24:57,056 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 1: the Baron's desk and gleefully used it to conduct his correspondence. 386 00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:04,856 Speaker 1: Mickey also embraced the idea that he had a Romani background, 387 00:25:05,296 --> 00:25:09,516 Speaker 1: calling himself the Gypsy Cavalier. Like the Jews, the Roma 388 00:25:09,536 --> 00:25:13,566 Speaker 1: were considered, quote, racially inferior and murdered by the Nazis. 389 00:25:15,306 --> 00:25:17,986 Speaker 1: But when he had his own surfboard line, Decat, made 390 00:25:18,026 --> 00:25:21,366 Speaker 1: by Greg Knoll of cute teen Nazis on the beach fame, 391 00:25:22,106 --> 00:25:25,296 Speaker 1: Mickey dressed up in his SS leather trench and sported 392 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 1: a monogrammed iron cross for the advertising campaign. Was the 393 00:25:30,666 --> 00:25:34,826 Speaker 1: Nazi schtick just mockery of dumb surfers for their ignorance 394 00:25:35,226 --> 00:25:38,166 Speaker 1: by someone who conceivably might have been Jewish or Romani? 395 00:25:39,046 --> 00:25:41,386 Speaker 1: Someone who, if he had grown up in Hungary and 396 00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:44,106 Speaker 1: not Los Angeles, might have suffered at the hands of 397 00:25:44,146 --> 00:25:50,336 Speaker 1: the Nazis? How complicated a mind game was Mickey playing? 398 00:25:58,586 --> 00:25:59,546 Speaker 1: This place is cool. 399 00:25:59,656 --> 00:26:05,516 Speaker 4: It's a Tudor house in the middle of Southern California 400 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:12,256 Speaker 4: subdivision land. I see an old mustard yellow VW van 401 00:26:12,296 --> 00:26:19,616 Speaker 4: that looks like it's in mint condition. Hi, I'm Dana. 402 00:26:19,856 --> 00:26:22,686 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. Thank you for letting us come over. 403 00:26:25,046 --> 00:26:27,866 Speaker 1: I'm in Riverside, California, at the home of a guy 404 00:26:27,986 --> 00:26:31,146 Speaker 1: I've been told knew Mickey better than just about anyone else. 405 00:26:32,286 --> 00:26:33,826 Speaker 3: I am Rick Peterson. 406 00:26:36,326 --> 00:26:37,566 Speaker 1: What do you do for work? 407 00:26:39,416 --> 00:26:40,916 Speaker 3: Nothing. I'm retired. 408 00:26:41,416 --> 00:26:42,976 Speaker 1: You're a painter, I thought. 409 00:26:43,296 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 3: I was a professional artist for like three decades. And, 410 00:26:49,036 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 3: you know, had shows all over Europe and here and, 411 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:56,186 Speaker 3: you know. But it got too nasty. Only about 20 412 00:26:56,186 --> 00:26:58,116 Speaker 3: years ago, I pretty much burned out on it. 413 00:27:00,106 --> 00:27:02,706 Speaker 1: Rick met Mickey at Malibu in the late 50s or 414 00:27:02,766 --> 00:27:06,326 Speaker 1: early 60s. Mickey was about 13 years older, but they 415 00:27:06,366 --> 00:27:09,526 Speaker 1: shared a worldview. They were the ascetes at the beach, 416 00:27:09,846 --> 00:27:11,686 Speaker 1: talking about art and fine wine. 417 00:27:11,706 --> 00:27:17,526 Speaker 3: He was my best male friend. If nothing else, I 418 00:27:17,566 --> 00:27:19,686 Speaker 3: mean long term, my God, I never knew anybody that long. 419 00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:22,936 Speaker 1: Rick is a bit of a recluse, and he says 420 00:27:22,976 --> 00:27:26,136 Speaker 1: he's very reluctant to give an interview about Mickey. It 421 00:27:26,216 --> 00:27:30,926 Speaker 1: feels disloyal. He keeps looking up at the sky, cringing almost, 422 00:27:31,326 --> 00:27:34,386 Speaker 1: apologizing to Mickey for talking about him without his permission. 423 00:27:36,406 --> 00:27:42,156 Speaker 3: My interest in doing this really is for, you know, posterity, 424 00:27:42,196 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 3: such as it may be, for whatever reason, to round 425 00:27:44,816 --> 00:27:48,576 Speaker 3: him out, you know, and eliminate the bullshit, you know, 426 00:27:48,836 --> 00:27:51,206 Speaker 3: and what who he really was. He was a very nice, 427 00:27:51,986 --> 00:27:59,996 Speaker 3: decent person. Loved animals. You know, loved nice things. Lived 428 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:04,396 Speaker 3: very simply, but had great appreciation for the finer things. 429 00:28:05,416 --> 00:28:08,176 Speaker 1: Rick says he wants to set the record straight because 430 00:28:08,216 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 1: he knows that Mickey has a reputation. 431 00:28:11,556 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 3: Well, there's stories about that. You know, I don't know 432 00:28:14,336 --> 00:28:15,656 Speaker 3: if I need to go into that. You know, there's 433 00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:19,336 Speaker 3: enough Enough of this, you know, legendary stuff, so-called, you know, 434 00:28:19,376 --> 00:28:23,226 Speaker 3: that somebody else might have a take on. But yeah, 435 00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:25,406 Speaker 3: he had ways of dealing with the crowd. Let's put 436 00:28:25,426 --> 00:28:25,906 Speaker 3: it that way. 437 00:28:27,906 --> 00:28:31,726 Speaker 1: Do you think some of the sort of bad Mickey 438 00:28:31,766 --> 00:28:35,026 Speaker 1: stories are untrue or exaggerated? 439 00:28:35,046 --> 00:28:37,666 Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely, you know. 440 00:28:38,486 --> 00:28:41,916 Speaker 1: And why do you think that happened? Like, what? 441 00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:47,116 Speaker 3: People are stupid. You know? I have no idea. That's 442 00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:48,096 Speaker 3: their problem, not mine. 443 00:28:48,536 --> 00:28:51,416 Speaker 1: Do you think Mickey played into that sort of myth 444 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:52,456 Speaker 1: of the Dark Prince? 445 00:28:52,816 --> 00:28:53,056 Speaker 6: No. 446 00:28:53,456 --> 00:28:53,636 Speaker 7: No. 447 00:28:56,476 --> 00:28:59,616 Speaker 1: Rick's made it clear that he wants to avoid controversial topics, 448 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:03,776 Speaker 1: but I have to ask him about Mickey's bigotry. One 449 00:29:03,796 --> 00:29:06,696 Speaker 1: of the things that's confusing about him from an outsider, 450 00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:09,736 Speaker 1: you know, someone who I never knew him, obviously, I never, 451 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:14,976 Speaker 1: you know, but a lot of people say, oh, he was... 452 00:29:16,156 --> 00:29:20,376 Speaker 1: bigoted against Jewish people and black people. And then a 453 00:29:20,796 --> 00:29:23,416 Speaker 1: lot of other people say, no, no, no, you don't 454 00:29:23,456 --> 00:29:26,816 Speaker 1: understand at all. He wasn't. Do you have any insight 455 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:31,296 Speaker 1: that you can share with us about that? No, no, no, no, no, no. 456 00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:38,286 Speaker 3: He wasn't. I mean, there are things that passed at 457 00:29:38,386 --> 00:29:41,746 Speaker 3: one time that wouldn't pass now, not necessarily applied to Mickey, 458 00:29:41,786 --> 00:29:44,086 Speaker 3: but just generally, you know, and now they have this 459 00:29:44,186 --> 00:29:47,006 Speaker 3: woke thing. And I mean, my God, you know, You 460 00:29:47,026 --> 00:29:48,536 Speaker 3: open your mouth and you got 50 people in front 461 00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:51,176 Speaker 3: of your house with pitchforks and torches. 462 00:29:52,336 --> 00:29:56,446 Speaker 1: I mean I know that certain symbols like the swastika 463 00:29:56,486 --> 00:29:58,446 Speaker 1: is kind of part of surf culture. 464 00:29:58,126 --> 00:30:02,066 Speaker 3: In certain ways swastika is an ancient symbol from the 465 00:30:02,146 --> 00:30:07,466 Speaker 3: orient you know it's on buddhas and American Indians it's 466 00:30:07,486 --> 00:30:08,566 Speaker 3: a great design. 467 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:13,516 Speaker 1: But after the 1930s, it doesn't have the same meaning anymore. 468 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 3: Well, you know, surfers adopted a lot of things. Iron 469 00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 3: crosses and, you know. 470 00:30:19,476 --> 00:30:21,256 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of fascist symbols. 471 00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:23,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't give any credence to any of that stuff. 472 00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:25,976 Speaker 1: But Mickey was into it. He wore that stuff. 473 00:30:26,696 --> 00:30:28,296 Speaker 3: Well, I think he put a swastika on a board 474 00:30:28,376 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 3: one time just to piss somebody off. To be a 475 00:30:31,886 --> 00:30:36,846 Speaker 3: little contrary, you know. Raised a few eyebrows at Malibu. Oh, 476 00:30:36,866 --> 00:30:38,946 Speaker 3: look at that, you know. Yeah, you know. 477 00:30:41,106 --> 00:30:43,406 Speaker 1: After we talk outside for a while, Rick shows me 478 00:30:43,446 --> 00:30:45,646 Speaker 1: around the inside of his house, which is filled with 479 00:30:45,726 --> 00:30:49,736 Speaker 1: Mickey memorabilia. One of Mickey's fake Rolexes, a passport he 480 00:30:49,776 --> 00:30:53,396 Speaker 1: had made for his dog, Scooter Boy. It's basically a 481 00:30:53,436 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 1: private Mickey museum, curated by one of Mickey's biggest fanboys. 482 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 1: Just as I'm about to leave, he offers to show 483 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:05,296 Speaker 1: me his yellow 1972 VW van. It's kept under an 484 00:31:05,476 --> 00:31:08,686 Speaker 1: awning at the backside of the house. It's in great condition. 485 00:31:09,386 --> 00:31:14,576 Speaker 1: obviously a possession Rick is really proud of. Vanity plate, R. Volksy. 486 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:22,856 Speaker 3: For some reason, I peek through the back window. 487 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:25,256 Speaker 6: There's a surfboard in there. 488 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:37,626 Speaker 3: That's a catboard dupe. I had a friend that made surfboards, 489 00:31:37,706 --> 00:31:39,346 Speaker 3: and he copied one for me. 490 00:31:40,246 --> 00:31:42,426 Speaker 1: It's a copy of the kind of board Mickey made 491 00:31:42,466 --> 00:31:46,736 Speaker 1: with Greg Knoll, a Decat board. It's bright yellow, and 492 00:31:46,776 --> 00:31:49,896 Speaker 1: it's got bubble writing on it that says, Idi Amin, 493 00:31:50,776 --> 00:31:58,146 Speaker 1: as in the brutal dictator of Uganda. Okay. That's weird. 494 00:31:59,206 --> 00:32:01,146 Speaker 1: But not as weird as what else I see on 495 00:32:01,166 --> 00:32:07,376 Speaker 1: the board. An ancient symbol from the Orient. You've got 496 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:11,466 Speaker 1: a swastika on your board, too. 497 00:32:11,486 --> 00:32:15,566 Speaker 3: A number of things. That's my Idi Amin. You know, 498 00:32:15,926 --> 00:32:17,566 Speaker 3: I just put that on there. 499 00:32:17,586 --> 00:32:22,706 Speaker 1: No, I am not a Nazi! 500 00:32:22,726 --> 00:32:25,376 Speaker 3: Remember Dr. Strangelove, man? 501 00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:28,136 Speaker 1: No, my inferior! 502 00:32:28,156 --> 00:32:50,916 Speaker 3: No! We were all degenerates, what can I say? Antisocial, demented, anarchist. 503 00:32:57,586 --> 00:33:00,166 Speaker 1: This is the first time I've seen, in person, a 504 00:33:00,446 --> 00:33:03,506 Speaker 1: surfboard with a swastika on it. It's a board that's 505 00:33:03,546 --> 00:33:07,186 Speaker 1: a knockoff of Mickey's brand, Decat, so it's an homage 506 00:33:07,226 --> 00:33:09,806 Speaker 1: to the Dark Prince of Malibu, by a friend of 507 00:33:09,866 --> 00:33:13,086 Speaker 1: Mickey's who's denied the entire premise of my questions about 508 00:33:13,166 --> 00:33:16,746 Speaker 1: Mickey's beliefs when it came to white supremacy and fascism. 509 00:33:17,766 --> 00:33:20,456 Speaker 1: He wasn't going to help me make sense of the contradictions. 510 00:33:21,776 --> 00:33:26,216 Speaker 1: But in a way, seeing this board does. There's no 511 00:33:26,336 --> 00:33:30,896 Speaker 1: nuance here, no getting it or not getting it. I 512 00:33:30,936 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 1: get it. Seeing a swastika on a surfboard feels absolutely terrible. 513 00:33:38,416 --> 00:33:42,126 Speaker 1: This is the layer of the Mikidora onion where I 514 00:33:42,186 --> 00:33:42,906 Speaker 1: just want to cry. 515 00:33:43,906 --> 00:33:45,906 Speaker 3: ¶ ¶. 516 00:33:58,596 --> 00:34:01,656 Speaker 1: In the next episode of Lost Hills, Mickey has a 517 00:34:01,736 --> 00:34:02,396 Speaker 1: secret life. 518 00:34:04,096 --> 00:34:07,326 Speaker 9: It was on Gretna Green in Brentwood, and there was 519 00:34:07,386 --> 00:34:14,346 Speaker 9: a row of maybe four little one-bedroom apartments. Ours was 520 00:34:14,426 --> 00:34:17,946 Speaker 9: in the back. It had a garage where he could 521 00:34:18,046 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 9: keep all his boards and cars, you know, his antique cars. 522 00:34:24,406 --> 00:34:27,906 Speaker 9: And of course, I was always warned never, ever to 523 00:34:27,966 --> 00:34:34,196 Speaker 9: let anybody know where he lived. So our whole relationship 524 00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:35,716 Speaker 9: was super, super secret. 525 00:34:36,596 --> 00:34:38,656 Speaker 1: What was behind all that secrecy? 526 00:34:39,376 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 9: Probably afraid that somebody was going to come and steal 527 00:34:42,856 --> 00:34:47,266 Speaker 9: stuff that he probably already stole. In other words, a 528 00:34:47,396 --> 00:34:51,226 Speaker 9: thief is always suspicious that someone's going to come and 529 00:34:51,326 --> 00:34:52,166 Speaker 9: steal from them. 530 00:34:53,726 --> 00:34:59,936 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 6, Fuck the World. Lost Hills 531 00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:03,416 Speaker 1: is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. It's created 532 00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:06,636 Speaker 1: by me and Ben Adair and produced by Western Sound 533 00:35:06,796 --> 00:35:10,386 Speaker 1: and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you can 534 00:35:10,426 --> 00:35:14,546 Speaker 1: binge the entire season right now ad-free. Find Pushkin Plus 535 00:35:14,686 --> 00:35:17,306 Speaker 1: on the Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or 536 00:35:17,326 --> 00:35:19,126 Speaker 1: at pushkin.fm/.plus.