1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: I feel like people think that this is super unusually. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: It is very unusual, but when people see examples, they see, oh, actually, 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: maybe I could live this way, Maybe this would be nice. 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: Adults who choose to come together and live together generally 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: are pretty conscientious, and so everyone's like, oh, don't you 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: have tragedy of the commons, And I'm like, no, i 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: have crazy abundance of the commons. 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: I'm hopewordered and welcome to voiceover a space where we're 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: learning and unlearning all the myths were taught about love 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: and relationships. This past year has had plenty of highs 11 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: and lows for me. I'm choosing to focus on the 12 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: positive and embrace the things that make me most grateful 13 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: among them. I've been really lucky to be surrounded by 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: some amazing people, whether it be through friendship through co 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: workers and colleagues, or through my actual neighbors. I live 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: alone in New York, miles away from my family, which 17 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: to a lot of people might sound isolating, and I'm 18 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: not gonna lie sometimes it can be, which is why 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: I'm even more thankful for the support system and community 20 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: I've built over the years. My guest today, Jillian Morris, 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: is an expert on prioritizing community to live a sustainable 22 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 2: life in a society where most people idealize living alone 23 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: or with an isolated family unit. Jillian is an advocate 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 2: for communal living. If that concept is maybe unfamiliar to you, 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: think of it as the practical version of starting a 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: commune with your friends. Jillian has been living communally for 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: over ten years, and on her blog Super Nuclear, she 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: writes about models of living that reach beyond the nuclear family. 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: It's a lifestyle some may consider unconventional, but what better 30 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: time than now to question our traditions and reflect on 31 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: what family can really be. Jillian, Welcome to Boysover. 32 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, How are you great? 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: Good? What was your inspiration for communal living? What got 34 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: you started thinking about that as a concept. 35 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: I've been living in communal homes for the last ten years, 36 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: which is actually almost eleven years now, So by communal home, 37 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: I just mean I don't live with my significant other 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: or my parents or something like this. I live with friends, 39 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: and I actually have also lived at times multi generationally, 40 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: like with my friend's kids, with my friend's parents as well, 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: And just the idea that we can have these beautiful 42 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: living situations that aren't the sort of conventional get your 43 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: own place. 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: Can you take me back ten years ago when you 45 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: really started to get into communal living. 46 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was twenty five living in No Well, anyway, 47 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: I was in my twenties living in New York and 48 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: I was living in this place in Williamsburg. It was cheap, 49 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: it was great. I had two roommates. They were really cool, 50 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: but we didn't have anywhere to eat in our home 51 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: because we were living in a cheap place in Brooklyn, 52 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: and we literally didn't have a dining table. And I 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: just really wanted to have a place where I could 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: host people at home. You know, New York is so expensive, 55 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: and so when the lease was up, I was just thinking, 56 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, what do I dream of in my home? 57 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: Like I want a dining table, I want to live 58 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: with people. It was a point in my life in 59 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: my career where a lot of people were like, getting 60 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: your own place. There's so much pressure towards that, like 61 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: that's the measure of achievement, that's growing up. But I 62 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: wasn't really drawn to that. Also, I was kind of 63 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: looking at like, Okay, what I would pay for a 64 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment at the time, it would have been 65 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: like twenty five hundred. Weren't those the nice days? 66 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: Right? 67 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: And then I was like, well, what if we actually 68 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: combine five people's one bedroom apartment budget, Look at these 69 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: crazy places we could get. And I just went on 70 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: Zillo and found some listings and posted them on Facebook 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: and just said, look like we could live in these 72 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: mansions basically, and tons of people reacted to that and 73 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: were drawn to that, And we found a really beautiful 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: brownstone and Grammarcy and rented that in twenty fifteen. 75 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Wait, what was the makeup of the 76 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: house and the roommates and everything? 77 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: Like? 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: Who was everybody? Were they strangers? Were they friends? 79 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: There ended up being three of us who sort of 80 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: signed on at the beginning. One person was a friend 81 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: of a friend, One person was someone I'd gone on 82 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: a date with and very quickly realized that we would 83 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: just be friends. And then the other person was a 84 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: friend of a friend. We had so many people who 85 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: were interested through the process, but it's really hard to 86 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: align on exactly who's ready to move at the same time, 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: has the same budget, has the same needs and preferences, 88 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: And so that's just how it worked out. And even 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: though we didn't end up living together in the long term. 90 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: We were all roommates for the first year, and we 91 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: found other people along the way. I think it was 92 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: still I'm so grateful to them for taking the leap 93 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: and being because I wouldn't have been able to sign 94 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: that lease on my own. We had to put down 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: quite a lot of money up there. 96 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: I remember how much. 97 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: Oh, this was the tough bit. So the rent was 98 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: eleven point five K a month, yes for a five 99 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: bedroom Okay, not bad, you know, I'm okay, yeah for 100 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: a five bedroom brownstone. We had the top half of 101 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: a brownstone really gorgeous, so yeah, but we had to 102 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: put down you know, first, last, we had to furnish 103 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: the place. All told, it ended up being around seventy 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. 105 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: You had to put down on U wow. 106 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of us had more or less saving 107 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: We got one person who had like a relocation budget 108 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: from Google paid us six months up front, and you know, there. 109 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: Was thank you Google. 110 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, we found a way to make 111 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: it work. 112 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 2: Okay, so you move in with you said five people? Yes, 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: And a year goes by and does everyone kind of 114 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: go separate ways or no? We all had. 115 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: Different So I was working on a startup and my 116 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: investors wanted me to move to San Francisco. So I 117 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: when I moved to San Francisco, I ended up discovering 118 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: this gigantic ecosystem of these houses and I ended up 119 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: living on a boat for two and a half years. 120 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: That was this like solar punk commune with all of 121 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: these brilliant people. I mean, like one guy I think 122 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: is probably going to win a Nobel Prize, and like 123 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: another has done all this amazing research. And living together, 124 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: you end up with so much more time and inspiration, 125 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: and you know, we really helped each other out. And 126 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: also within the Bay Area, you know, there are hundreds 127 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: of houses like this, and so it's really nice when 128 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: there's an ecosystem. So anyway, I learned so much more 129 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: and I became much more interested and the theory and 130 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: the practice and the network and the knowledge in these 131 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: communal houses. And it was also very inspired, like almost 132 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: every large company in the Bay Area came out of 133 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: a communal house. Really, So I lived in the house 134 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: that Anthropic was founded at, and Blue Sky and a 135 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: few other. 136 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: Blue Sky is the Twitter replacement exactly. 137 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: Anthropic is an ai company the main competitor to chat 138 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: gptet it open Ai. 139 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: That's really crazy, Yeah, that all these things are like 140 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: coming out of these community spaces, but it makes sense. 141 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: And read it and Airbnb and all. 142 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: Came out of a communal house. Wow, tell me about 143 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: the situation you're in now. Tell you walk me through 144 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: the details of your sort of communal living right now. 145 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: So I live in Brooklyn in a six bedroom place 146 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: with a bunch of friends. I have the whole bottom floor, 147 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: which is nice. I feel like I have my privacy 148 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: I always And that's the I think a lot of 149 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: people assume communal living is always going to be oh 150 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: people all the time. Everywhere a It's New York City, 151 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: everyone has active social lives. So sometimes I feel like 152 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: I have this massive house to myself. Sure, and then 153 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: we have a backyard and a garage and a beautiful 154 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: dining room and a patio and a roof. And to 155 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: think there was a one bedroom on my block that 156 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: just rented for seven K and I am paying a 157 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: fraction of that right. And I live with great friends, 158 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: including two who I used to live with in Puerto Rico. 159 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: So I started another communal house in Puerto Rico in 160 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty with some friends and that's still going strong. 161 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: And so I go and I spend a good portion 162 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: of my time there as well. 163 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: Oh fun, Yeah, do you run into conflict at all? 164 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: And like the communal living? Like I live alone, And 165 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: yesterday I was like cleaning my house and I'm like, 166 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: I have like two days off a week, right, and 167 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: I'm like, jeez, I have to use my entire day 168 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: to like clean my whole nasty house. It just like 169 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: dust is everywhere. I'm like, people can't know I'm living 170 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: like this. But I guess when I think about living 171 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: with so many people, I would assume that maybe you 172 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: run into some conflict. Does that happen? 173 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: It's a common question, But the funny thing is, honestly, 174 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: not that often, you know. I think a lot of 175 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: people's experience of living with other people is when they're 176 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: in college or something. And people under twenty five just 177 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: are not fully formed humans, you know, they don't. It's like, actually, 178 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: your brain isn't fully formed, Like you are not good 179 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: at necessarily thinking through all the consequences of your actions. 180 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: Might feel little thoughtless. Adults who choose to come together 181 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: and live together generally are pretty conscientious, and so everyone's like, oh, 182 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: don't you have tragedy of the commons and people, and 183 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I have crazy abundance of the commons. 184 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: You know. 185 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: It's not like someone finishes milk carton. It's like someone 186 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: notices it's low and goes and gets more milk, and 187 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: I didn't have to take care of that or something. 188 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: You know, someone I bring out the trash sometimes, but 189 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times other people bring out the trade, 190 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: you know, So there is Yeah, cleaning is so much 191 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: easier when it's between six people. I mean, we just 192 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: hire a cleaner, you know, because if it were on 193 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: my own, it would be like one hundred fifty dollars, 194 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: but it's thirty dollars. So okay. 195 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 2: Tell me. Like the true difference between like having roommates 196 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: and communal living super simple. 197 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: It's just deciding that you are going to be intentional. 198 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: So a lot of people call communes or co living 199 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: houses or there's so many different terms, but a popular 200 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: term is intentional community. And it's just like, we are 201 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: choosing this. We're not doing this because we have to. 202 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: We're not doing this because we need to save money, 203 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: even though that can be a part of it, but 204 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: that should never be the primary motivation. You know, we're 205 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: doing this because we want to share our lives with 206 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: each other, and we want to treat each other well, 207 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: and we want to help each other out with things. 208 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: And I mean, yes, you asked about conflict, and it's 209 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: not like zero conflict occurs. But there's also like, frankly, 210 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: like what good thing comes without a little bit. 211 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: Of work, a little friction. 212 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you know. I mean you have to learn 213 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: people's way of relating, and I do think it helps 214 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: people improve become better communicators. My friend he wrote a 215 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: guest post for my blog recently and he basically had 216 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: a whole thing. He's like, you know, commune dwellers are 217 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: better lovers, And I was just like, do you want 218 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: to expand on this? He's like, probably not appropriate for 219 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: the blog, But how do I say that I've had 220 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: the best sex of my life with like communal living people. 221 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 2: Oh how funny we like with a roommate or just 222 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: by like bringing someone into the mix. 223 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: So I think he's on this sort of tour of 224 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: visiting different communities and trying to learn and share his learnings, 225 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: and so I think, yeah, dating within houses is something 226 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: people ask about a lot as well. And my approach 227 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: is just basically, like, you're consenting adults, you should be 228 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: mature enough to realize the risks here and sort of 229 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: like dating at the workplace, like probably not a great idea, 230 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: but if you really find someone that you're really aligned with, 231 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it can't happen. And there are so 232 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: many relationships and marriages and babies that I have seen 233 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: come out of communal living. 234 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: Do you think communal living has like impacted your dating 235 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: life specifically? 236 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot there. I mean, I think I have 237 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: been doing this for a very long time. It's an 238 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: unconventional way to live, and so I'm sure there are 239 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: some people for whom it's a turn off, and so 240 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: it's probably limited my dating pool. But it's hard to 241 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: imagine someone that I would act actually want to end 242 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: up with who wouldn't be really excited about this, right. 243 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is as I get older I'm 244 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: thirty nine, and as I get older, the number of 245 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: people I meet who are more into this than Sometimes 246 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, are you dating me because you want to 247 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: live in my community? 248 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 2: I will tell you I dated a guy I met 249 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 2: from Hinge and he was like in a communal living 250 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: thing and I wanted. It didn't work out and I 251 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: never got to visit his place, but I was always 252 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: so curious and I wanted to meet his roommates. And 253 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: he said that like somebody was making dinner once a week, 254 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: like people have made dinner for each other, and so 255 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: it sounded like so much fun to me. And I think, 256 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: especially right now, like life can feel so isolating. 257 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: I mean, someone is always cooking, right, there is an 258 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: option to eat at home with people pretty much every night, 259 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: which I think is underrated. 260 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: Like I started working at this restaurant, and so it 261 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: has really like gotten me into community. Like there were 262 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: a couple nights in a row where I like had 263 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: a homemade me at other people's houses and I was like, 264 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: oh my god, Like this feels like I'm taking well 265 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: putrin and I'm not, you know what I mean, Like 266 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: it feels like I've got I'm on an antidepressant and 267 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: the only thing that's happening is people are cooking around me. 268 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: Well, but that is so true. I Mean there's tons 269 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: of research around this, Like there are neurological things that 270 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, there are very serious changes to your experience 271 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: when you interact with people in person. This was why 272 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: during COVID it was such an even losing the experience 273 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: of going to a coffee shop and ordering your coffee face. 274 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: You know, any in person interaction is going to flood 275 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: your brain with dopamine. And Yeah, I get people all 276 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: the time saying, Oh, I just need my space, I 277 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: just need my peace, I just need to come home 278 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: to my castle. And I'm like, Okay, I get that. 279 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: That feels good in the moment, maybe, but I would 280 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: give up a tiny bit of control and privacy for 281 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: all of the good things that can happen. 282 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: Why do you think it's so glamorized to live alone? 283 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, how deep do you want to go? 284 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: Please take me there. 285 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: So it's it's actually a very recent phenomenon and a 286 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: very weird phenomenon. So worldwide, most people still live in 287 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: some sort of extended family compound, and it's just in 288 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: the US and kind of the West that it's more 289 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: common to live on your own. So in eighteen ninety 290 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: seven of this stat so like the turn of the 291 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: last century, fewer than three percent of Americans lived alone. 292 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: Today it's thirty percent, twenty eight point percent, and a 293 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: lot of that came in the wake of World War One. 294 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: There was actually a lot of government policy around, Okay, 295 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: we have all these men coming back from the war 296 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: and all these women had entered the workforce, and they're like, 297 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: we need to get women out of the workforce, and 298 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: we also need to stimulate the economy. And basically there 299 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: was between the real estate lobby and the Department of Commerce, 300 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: there was basically a sort of you know, here's this 301 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: great idea. If everyone has their own home, women are 302 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: going to be busy because it's so time consuming to 303 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: maintain a home, to become a homemaker housewife. And then 304 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: of course, if everyone has their own home, they're all 305 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: going to need their own car, and they're all going 306 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: to need their own dishwasher, and so it's going to 307 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: massively stimulate the consumer economy. So there was this massive push. 308 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: There was the own your own Home campaign that was 309 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: pushed by the government and the real estate lobby, and 310 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: so this became sold as the American dream, that whole concept, 311 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: and it was sold very effectively. And there are also things, 312 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to overglamorize what it was 313 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: like to live in eighteen ninety seven in a city 314 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: in the UA. You know, like there were tenements, there 315 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: was disease, there was you know, there was a lot 316 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: of poverty. So the idea of having your own home 317 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: and having more space is appealing, I think, and so 318 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: it really resonated. And then of course you have this massive, 319 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: massive boom where America becomes the world largest economy and 320 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: it was achievable, like you could buy your own house 321 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: and you could live this unbelievably luxurious life of having 322 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: your own thing. But also you get the concept of 323 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: like Mother's little helper valuum, you know, the idea of 324 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, even in that moment, people were becoming so 325 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: lonely and so isolated, and also just economically, since the seventies, 326 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: it hasn't really been feasible for everyone to own their 327 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: own home. And yet we keep on chasing after this 328 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: weird ideal. And in the blog that I write with 329 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: my friend Phil, it's super nuclear and we are exploring. 330 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is just documenting what's 331 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: going on, because I feel like people think that this 332 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: is super unusual. It is very unusual. But when people 333 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: see examples, they see, oh, actually, maybe I could live 334 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: this way, Maybe this would be nice. And so we're 335 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: trying to just collect and document good examples in a 336 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: thoughtful way. 337 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: Tell me about Phil. Are you all in the communal 338 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: home together right now? 339 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: No? So Phil and his wife Kristin live in the 340 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: Bay Area. We met when I was living over there 341 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: and Phil, he said, you know, when he and Kristin 342 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: got serious, he thought, oh, the natural thing is we're 343 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: going to go and get a one bedroom place totally. 344 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: And Kristin is a behavioral scientist, and she's like, no, 345 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: I think what will make us happiest is being surrounded 346 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: by the people we love, and that's the housing situation 347 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: we should create. So they started this house called RGB, 348 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: and then a couple years in, when they were starting 349 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: to get ready to have kids, they actually bought a 350 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: place in Oakland, just on the East Bay and started 351 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: building this compound with their friends and they have this 352 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: crazy idyllic lifestyle. Where it started, they had two buildings. 353 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 1: I think now there are six buildings, twenty adults, seven kids. 354 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: They all, oh, that's so much fun. 355 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: It's so fun. And it's also just Phil put this 356 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: out there and he's like, I feel like a bit 357 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: of jerk for saying this, but having a kid is 358 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: much easier than advertised. You know. He wrote this great 359 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: post it's on super Nuclear you should read it, but 360 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: about what it was like to have babies at Radish. 361 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: So his place is called Radish and they have baby 362 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: Happy Hour, which is at five point thirty you just 363 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: come out and hang out with the babies. Sure, and 364 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: they also have this concept of baby monitor distance, which 365 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: is after the kids asleep and you want to go 366 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: out to a movie, or you and your partner want 367 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: to go out to nice dinner or something, just say, like, 368 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: anyone willing to take the baby monitor they are eighteen 369 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: other adults. Someone always says yes, And so they said, 370 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: they've basically never arranged a nighttime babysitter. And you can 371 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: just be spontaneous and or you can go and have 372 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: a glass of wine with your friends in the common area. 373 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: It's reminding me. I was a Peace Corps volunteer right 374 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: out of college. Oh amazing there in West Africa in 375 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: a tiny country. Been in oh my goodness, between Togo 376 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: and Nigeria. Yeah, and I lived alone there, but I 377 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: was like connected to a family. It was a small 378 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 2: village that we were living in, but there was a 379 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: bit of a like communal feeling of like five or 380 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: six houses in like a small area and kids were 381 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: sort of passed around in the same way. It was 382 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: like there was no official babysitter, but like if someone 383 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: needed to go to the market or somebody had something 384 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: to do, like kids could just wander into people's houses 385 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: and like doors were open for the most part, and like, yeah, 386 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: the concept of a babysitter was not really a part 387 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: of the conversation because there was just always somebody who 388 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: could sort of like take them in, you know. And 389 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: it is like so much pressure and it takes so 390 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: much money to do this, like without any help. Why 391 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 2: do you think households are so isolated now? Because it's 392 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: not just sort of like we talked about earlier, like 393 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 2: the single woman and idealizing having your own apartment and 394 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: independence or whatever. One of my best friends is like 395 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: a third grade teacher, and last year I was helping 396 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 2: him with like a Thanksgiving launch or whatever, and I 397 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: was sort of looking at the parents and like nobody 398 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: was really interacting, like I feel like maybe they did 399 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: when I was in elementary school, and maybe I'm idealizing 400 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: or romanticizing. But I do feel like there is a 401 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: pretty intense feeling of separation, like household to household. 402 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: We used to have, probably even when you were growing 403 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: up and people were still a little bit more. They 404 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: might belong to their church or temple or moscar or whatever, 405 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: and or they were very involved in the PTA and 406 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: the YWCA or the whatever, you know, lots of organizations. 407 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: And some people blame it on TV. Some people blame 408 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: it on cars. Some people it's like all of the 409 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: above totally. And now I think it's just crazily exacerbated 410 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: by the these little dopamine machines we have in our 411 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: pockets called phones. And it's so easy to entertain yourself. 412 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: It's like eating a pint of ice cream or something. 413 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's great in the moment, it's really easy 414 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: to make that decision. And also at the moment, still 415 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: society is like endorsing making that decision because. 416 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 2: There's money to be made off of it. You know, 417 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: they of our attention at this point, right. 418 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it can be so cheap to just 419 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: be with other people. I spend so much less on 420 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: food and entertainment, and I still you know. I again 421 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: this abundance of the commons. You know, I get to 422 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: attend amazing concerts and talks and things that happen like 423 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: in my home or in other communal homes. 424 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: You're thirty nine, Is having a family something you want 425 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: in your future? Like starting a family, being a mother? 426 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: Is that something you think about at this point? 427 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Yea, and yeah, so I am actually 428 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: working on becoming a single mom. And I listened to 429 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: your episode on egg freezing, by the way, which is 430 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: great and very highly recommend everyone do it. I did 431 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: it in Spain initially, which is like a fifth of 432 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: the cost of doing it in the US, so that helps. 433 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: But it's always it's been. I think in my twenties, 434 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if I wanted to have kids, and 435 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: it was so funny, it was so like clockwork. When 436 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: I turned thirty, I was just. 437 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I do yeah, And I'm. 438 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: No longer too young for this, right, you know. And 439 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: so I started becoming a little bit more intentional about 440 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: my dating. And but then I was super in love 441 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: with someone who didn't want to have kids, and I 442 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: wasn't sure whether, and then we ended up dating for 443 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: a while, but I in my head, I was like, 444 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: I'll give this nine months, Sherry Freudian, you know, in 445 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: case there's any chance he changes his mine, you know. Yeah, 446 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: And then the pandemic happened and it became very difficult 447 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: to meet people, and so I obviously I try and 448 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: be very self reflective and like, it would be great 449 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: to have found a partner, but I also feel like 450 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: I have a village and I can do this. And 451 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: I have talked to people who are like, oh, you 452 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: have frozen eggs, you can still meet someone. But I 453 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: don't love dating in this paradigm where you're like, okay, 454 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: are you worth me delaying my fertility, like starting building 455 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: a family until I vet whether you're right or not. 456 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: It just puts so much pressure on a relationship at 457 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: this age. So for a while I've actually been going 458 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: down this path. I got pregnant earlier this year, but 459 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: I miscarried, which is super common, but it was actually 460 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: with someone as a donor. This is a person who 461 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: I know and I love as a friend, and my 462 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: child will be able to know like where they came from, 463 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: but is not my partner, And that feels honestly fine. 464 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me more about it, because I hope to 465 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: be a mother, but I don't have I can't really 466 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: find a partner that I've wanted to start a family 467 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: with just yet, and so I have had this sort 468 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: of idea of like, yeah, when I'm ready, I'll probably 469 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: ask my best friend because he wants one to and 470 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: can't really find a partner either. So it's like something 471 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: we chat about and I think about. So it sounds 472 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: like you sort of are doing that. Can you just 473 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: tell me how it feels? Tell me, like what y'all's 474 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: conversations have been, Like, how do people react when you 475 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 2: tell them you want to be like a single mother 476 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: by choice? 477 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: I think most people are super supportive. They're like, wow, 478 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: that's so brave. Okay, most people are like, I couldn't 479 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: possibly do that. Yeah, so Carrie's like a sort of 480 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: implicit judgment. But I'm my parents are madly in love 481 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: forty seven years in and if I find a partnership 482 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: like that, amazing. Sure, But I also want to have 483 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: multiple kids, and I just at a certain point you 484 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: just have to start, you know, you have to look 485 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: at the calculus. And also, you know, I grew up 486 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: in an era where a lot of my friend's parents 487 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: were divorced and sometimes that was really hard, and sometimes 488 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: they just ended up with cool bonus parents. So totally. 489 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 2: You know, I love my stepdad. I'm like, I'm so 490 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: thankful for him. 491 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I would love to find a partner 492 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: and a father at some point, but also that can 493 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: come further down the line or and maybe I have 494 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: kid two or three with a partner. And I feel 495 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: so happy to be moving forward with this, and I 496 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: also feel really grateful that it is this friend. We 497 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: actually talked about this eight years ago, he and I, 498 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: but at the time, you know, you're thirty one and 499 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: thirty three, it hits different and at that's hyper likele yeah, 500 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: maybe we'll to do it. But then this past December 501 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: he kind of called me up in the wake of 502 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: a breakup and he's like, so, you know, we're now 503 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: thirty eight and forty, you know, and it couldn't have 504 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: come at a more perfect time. That was basically exactly 505 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: the time that I was thinking, Okay, this is actually 506 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: when I'm probably ready to start moving forward and this 507 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: on my own. And actually the fact that I can 508 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: do this with a friend feels incredible. 509 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love for you to sort of walk 510 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 2: me through like how it felt like having him as 511 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 2: as a donor and then becoming pregnant, And if you 512 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 2: don't mind to talk about the miscarriage, I know that 513 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: must be emotional, but just how are you feeling? First 514 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: of all, feels like you've been through a lot this year. Yeah, 515 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 2: like I can only imagine. 516 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super sad. I'm going to get a little bit. 517 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry, and I'm sorry to ask you about it. 518 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: It's okay. I mean, the nice thing is I was 519 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: held by my community, you know. Yeah, so many people 520 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: were around to support me, and also a lot of 521 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: people because I was very public and open about this, 522 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: pretty much everyone i'd spoke to who has kids was like, oh, yeah, 523 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: we had a miscarriage. We had to share, And so 524 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: knowing that you're not alone really helps. And so I 525 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: think we do have this perception because it's taboo to 526 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: talk about these things. We have this perception that it's 527 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: super unusual or that it doesn't happen that often, and 528 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: when it does, it's incredibly devastating. And not only did 529 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: it bring me closer to a lot of people in 530 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: my community that I hadn't realized had been through similar things. 531 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: It was comforting and it is nice to know that. Again, 532 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: you can hear statistics, but when you realize that you're 533 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: part of a very large community of people. 534 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: Uh, sorry, no, it's really I can't imagine. 535 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, a lot. 536 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, like such an emotional experience, and to get close 537 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: to something that you've wanted for a long time can 538 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: be Yeah, just your friend try again. Yeah, I was 539 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 2: gonna ask, are you trying again? 540 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: What's going on? Yeah, no, there's I had an appointment 541 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: earlier today at the fertility center and the yeah, we're 542 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: going to keep trying. 543 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: So But I also think that like your story is, 544 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: like you said, not talked about enough, but so relatable. 545 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: Like especially I think right now when women can't seem 546 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: to like find the right person or the right time, 547 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: just it's everyone's having a difficult go at this. I mean, 548 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: and men too. 549 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I know plenty of men, and I think 550 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: the thing that I feel most strongly about is just 551 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: I've seen so many of my female friends push off 552 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: motherhood and the prospect of having a family in definite 553 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: for the sake of finding the perfect person. Sorry, not 554 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: just women, I actually know several men as well who 555 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: are because they don't have a biological clock and they 556 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: don't take it as seriously and then all of a 557 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: sudden they're like forty seven or fifty, they're like, well, 558 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: I wanted that, but now do I want to date 559 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: someone who's fifteen years younger than me or you know? 560 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: And obviously, if you don't want to have kids, that's 561 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: totally fine. I'm not judging at all, but I feel 562 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: personally I desperately want them. I think that's like what 563 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: I'm here for, you know, what a lot of us 564 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: are here for, and so I'm just not willing to 565 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: risk it. Yeah, and I see a lot of people 566 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: push it off and then justify it and they make 567 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: their peace with it. And that's good too. But I 568 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: feel like we're more capable than we give ourselves credit for. 569 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: And it might not look exactly like you think. But 570 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: also the number of people who do all the right 571 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: things and get married and have kids with the guy 572 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: and then blows up spectacularly. Oh, it's not like that 573 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: works out a lot as well. 574 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: I have this conversation with my mom about having a 575 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: kid on my own, because I mean, is it one 576 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: hundred percent decided no, but it kind of feels like 577 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: it will make the most sense for me, and she's 578 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: all for it because you know, she had a husband 579 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: all loved to my dad, though he kind of sort 580 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: of like went a little bit crazy and blew up 581 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: her life and stuff. You don't mean sort of like 582 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: you can totally do the traditional thing, but that does 583 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: not mean like safety or success. Even How are you 584 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: feeling now that you want to try again with your 585 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: donor and everything. 586 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm excited, Yeah, I'm honestly, Yeah, I'm learning through the process. 587 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: I'm learning about my body, I'm learning about the science 588 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: behind all of this, and I feel like I'm more 589 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: prepared than a lot of people who are children, and 590 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: no one is ever fully prepared. And I don't want 591 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: to assume that I am, but I I'm excited for 592 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: the adventure that it's going to be. 593 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: It's so human like what you're going through and what 594 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: you're doing. It's like, yeah, there's nothing I feel like 595 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: more connective than this situation when you know when it 596 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: happens and you do like bring a new life into 597 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: the world. Do you think you'll raise a child in 598 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: a communal home or will you ever feel like you 599 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: need to do the sort of other traditional thing of 600 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: like living alone and having an apartment and blah blah blah, 601 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: how do you see it happening. 602 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: I cannot fathom of having a child alone in a 603 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment or something or whatever. I also think 604 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: that community can evolve. So right now, I live in 605 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: a house where there's one kitchen that we all share, 606 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: but I think a lot of people, as they start 607 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: to have families, want to gravitate into more of we're 608 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: in an apartment in a building with our friends, where 609 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: there is a little bit more sort of family units 610 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: in different places. But you still have a lot of 611 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: shared resources totally, and I could see that you also 612 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: can create community. You don't have to share a kitchen, 613 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: have to share a building, even you can create community 614 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: with the people around you. 615 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, like the idea of boy sober is like 616 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: born out of the idea not chasing a man and 617 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: like using a man for like stability or purpose or 618 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: worth or anything like that. And it's like, you know, 619 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: for so long women sort of had to use men 620 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: for like financial stability, and then we were kind of 621 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: sold this idea of individualism. I feel like and now 622 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: it feels like maybe everyone really sees that, Like, not 623 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: even everyone, but I do think there are whispers of 624 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: people understanding that, like, you actually cannot do everything alone, well, 625 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: even in relationships. 626 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: I actually love a lot of people I find living 627 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: in community is great for their relationship. 628 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: M M. 629 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: I always come back to I have these two friends 630 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: I used to live with in Puerto Rico, and they 631 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: were married couple. They owned their place and they ended 632 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: up leasing out their place and moving into our house. 633 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: And the wife was like, I love my husband, but 634 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: he's high energy, and I love that you guys entertain 635 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: him and I get to like meditate in my room, right, 636 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: and then he comes back. 637 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: And tells me, you know. 638 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: And so they had this beautiful dynamic and really enjoy it. 639 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: And I see this all the time. Esther Peirell talks 640 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: a lot about this, how we put so much pressure 641 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: on one relationship to be like your sexual partner, your 642 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: emotional partner, your maybe your business and financial partner and 643 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. And when you're living in a 644 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: communal situation, you can balance that out with other people 645 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: and then you can just have so much more joy 646 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: with your partner without as much pressure. 647 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: Tell me what is one thing you've had to unlearn 648 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: about love and maybe friendship and maybe just like existing 649 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: as a person who's connected. 650 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: I think people like to make rules about what you 651 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: should and should not do. And I think the communal 652 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: situation that I had that had the worst dynamics around 653 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: relationships was the one that explicitly forbade Housemaids dating. And 654 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: so the idea that you can control like sort of 655 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: trying to put limits on things just doesn't work particularly well. 656 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically to. 657 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: Trust that people are humans and may make mistakes, but 658 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: you have to allow people to negotiate and don't expect 659 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: things to be perfect and when you overfix it. I also, 660 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: I feel like what holds so many people back from 661 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: communal living is they're like, oh, well, I could only 662 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: do this with my best friends and in this perfect situation, 663 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: or I could only have kids with a perfect partner 664 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: when I'm perfectly ready. And if that's your standard, maybe 665 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: you'll never do this. Maybe you'll never start the communal house, 666 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: maybe you'll never start your family. And I would rather 667 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: have a messy and imperfect journey that we learn from 668 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: and grow and build on than to wait for everything 669 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: to be perfect someday. 670 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: Talking to Julian has solidified something for me. Relying on 671 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 2: community isn't just necessary for our well being, it can 672 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 2: be a huge help in this whole Boysover journey too. 673 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 2: For someone trying to decenter romance, Platonic relationships are vital 674 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 2: and could maybe provide some clarity on what you really want. 675 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening and have a happy Thanksgiving no 676 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: matter how you celebrate with family, chosen family, or a 677 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: larger community. I hope you can all rest and take 678 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: time to reflect on the good that has come in 679 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: this wild and crazy year. Boysover is a production of 680 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: iHeart podcast Guess I'm Your Host Hopewordard. Our executive producers 681 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is 682 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. Engineering by 683 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 2: Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. If 684 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: you liked this episode, please tell a friend and don't 685 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober on 686 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your 687 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 2: favorite shows.