1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Hey, Hey, hey, welcome back to the show. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: It's another day, day day. I don't know why I 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: felt like I had to rhyme because we were singing 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: a song. Songs have to rhyme, yeah, otherwise they're bullshit. 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Take that probably a lot of man. Oh, welcome back. 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: We're super excited to have you today. Always so happy 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: to have you. Thanks for listening. Trying to inject some 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: some joy this. Yes, times, it's the weird time to live, 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: like most times to be alive. I guess that's true. 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: It's been a weird time to be alive as long 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: as I can remember. These unprecedented times are starting to 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: feel pretty precedented. Hello, precedent, And I don't really feel 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: unprecedent anymore. It just feels pretty normal. Oh, another big 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: old thing. Yeah, but y'all have heard about that plenty. 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: You don't need to hear about that from us. Came 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: to hear fun stories, Yeah, totally. We're here to distract 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: you from that and think about other things for a 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: few minutes at a time. I like also that this 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: conversation we're having is totally evergreen, because we could be 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: talking about anything. We're just gonna distract you from the 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: horrible thing that's going on insert here. You know what 22 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, God. So I hope everybody's uh doing well, 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: staying in high spirits and taking care of yourselves. That's importantly, definitely, 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: and those around you and strangers in far off lands. 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: I don't care to take care of somebody, you know. Yeah, 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: But we do have a really awesome episode for you 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: guys today. I'm so excited about this one. As soon 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: as I learned about this person, I was saying, I'm 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: diving in immediately doing an episode definitely UM about you. 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: But first we wanted to reach in the old mail 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: bag and read one of these letters from our listeners. 32 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: So how about a good old mail call awesome? All right? 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: So this email came from Laura Shape and she said 34 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: that you guys are awesome, which was so nice to hear. 35 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: I've never shied away from being called awesome. That's a 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: always one of my favorite things to be called. Um. 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: She said that she had just finished listening to the 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: Christo and Jean Claude episode. If you haven't heard that, 39 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: please go check it out. It's beautiful. I love that story, 40 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: and Laura liked it too. She said, I was a 41 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: graphic design major in the early nineties and watched a 42 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: movie on this pair for art history class. I don't 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: remember which of their artworks it was about, but I 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: do remember thinking it was pretentious and stupid, and she 45 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: was definitely his assistant. But now I realized that was 46 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: probably just my shitty teacher, and I wish I could 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: go back and tell him what a jerky was I 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: feel you, Laura, I have several teachers I wish to 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: go back tell him what i'd jerke I thought they were. 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: She goes on, you two have made me see it 51 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: in a completely fresh, fun and beautiful way, and I'm 52 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: truly grateful for it. I wish you had been my teachers. No, 53 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: you don't. This is this is about the extent of 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: what I would be capable of doing as a teacher. 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: Right many you'll ask a question, I'd be like, oh, 56 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: was I not just talking? I don't know what I 57 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: would do. I feel like, well, that's a very interesting point. 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it for another forty five minutes. Laura says, 59 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: I have always struggled with my own desire to create art, 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: but I have a lack of personal message or gravitas. 61 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm generally pretty light and cheerful, and while I know 62 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: heavy people don't create better art, there's always a part 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: of me that felt insecure about not having deep, meaningful why. 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: I've always just made stuff because it made me happy 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: to make and I thought it would look cool. But 66 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: that has made me feel somehow less than as an artist. Now, 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm in my early fifties and have started pursuing art 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: full time as a second career, and this podcast just 69 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: helped fill a hole I didn't realize I had. I 70 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: will now more confidently pursue my bliss and love of 71 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: beauty joyfully and playfully without feeling the need to justify it. 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for saying that. I mean, that's yeah. 73 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: Taking that lesson from John Claude and Christo I took 74 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: that lesson from them. I think we all can that 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: you don't have to go out and have some sort 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: of like like you said, heavy, you know, introspective, meaningful 77 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: thing like you don't need a reason to make art. Yeah, 78 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,559 Speaker 1: especially if you're just making something pretty, I mean and nice. 79 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: So you know, I think a lot of art with 80 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: a point can be ugly on purpose, and that can 81 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: have a good point to it. But yeah, if you 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, I just want to make things look nice. 83 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: It's something I want to make. I feel good when 84 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: I make it. Is that not enough? You don't need more? 85 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: I'd even say it doesn't even have to look nice, 86 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: Like if you just want to create something, if you 87 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: just want to take your hands and something didn't exist 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: and now it does, I don't care. What would be 89 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: better be a mishmash of slop and like, great, you 90 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: brought something into existence, and that that's cool enough for me. 91 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: It's very cool. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm so glad that 92 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: that podcast meant so much to somebody. Very awesome. Thank 93 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: you so much, Laura, and just for us. She goes 94 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: on to say, also, I've been meaning to write to 95 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: you the rest of the time to say I just 96 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: adore you as a couple. Your enjoyment of each other 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,239 Speaker 1: shines through, and that makes you a delight to listen to. Also, 98 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: I love your choice of topics and your quickie take 99 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: on history. It's a wonderful show, and I have told 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: many people about it. Yea, Laura, tell many people, tell 101 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: many people, tell many people. The best thing anybody can do, 102 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: I know, huge compliments. Thank you. I mean, you didn't 103 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: have to write in anything to us, but you did, 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: and you didn't have to tell anybody about our show, 105 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: and you did that too, So double thank you to Laura. 106 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot about that part. Nice. Yeah, that's nice. Well, 107 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: come come spend some time on a on a on 108 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: a spring cleaning day. How ugly it gets around here, 109 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: That's true, it does get ugly. Um well, thank you 110 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: so much Laura for writing in, and wonderful to everyone 111 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: who writes in. Um. We we do read every message 112 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: we get. Sometimes our episodes just feel a little too 113 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: long to throw an email on the air, but when 114 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: we feel like we get a chance, we definitely will 115 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: read them out and so keep them coming. It keeps 116 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: us going, that's for sure. It does. Very true. So 117 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: Polly Murray is a true unsung hero. She was so 118 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: far ahead of her time that she was always behind 119 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: the scenes. Fifteen years before Rosa Parks, she was arrested 120 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: for refusing to change seats on a segregated bus. She 121 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: placed a bet that pless c V Ferguson would be overturned, 122 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: and not only did she win that bet, it was 123 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: overturned using the argument she made in law school. She 124 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: inspired a young Ruth Bader Ginsburg, had a decade long 125 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: friendship with Eleanor Roosevelt, and helped start the National Organization 126 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: for Women. I've only done half of those things, um. 127 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: And she also struggled with her sexuality and her gender identity. 128 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: And she's just truly a trailblazer and a certified badass. 129 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Anna Pauline Murray. Let's go, hey, 130 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: their French, come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got some 131 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: stories to tell. There's no matchmaking, a romantic tips. It's 132 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: just about ridiculous relationships, a love. It might be any 133 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: type of person at all, and abstract cons at a 134 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: concrete wall. But if there's a story where the second 135 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: plants ridiculous roles. A production of iHeart Radio. So. Anna 136 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: Pauline Murray was born in Baltimore, Maryland, on November nineteen, 137 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: but her mother died suddenly when she was only three 138 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: of a massive cerebral hemorrhage, so her father sent her 139 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: to live with her maternal aunt, Pauline Fitzgerald, for she 140 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: was named, and also her maternal grandparents, Cornelia and Robert, 141 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: in Durham, North Carolina, shout out, I have some family 142 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: and Durham. If you're listening, hope you're well. Love you. 143 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: But three years after she was sent to live with 144 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: her family in Durham, her father was committed to an 145 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: insane asylum, where in a racist white guard screamed slurs 146 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: at him, dragged him into the basement, and beat him 147 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: to death with a baseball bat. God. In her memoir 148 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: song in a Weary Throat, Polly remembers attending his funeral 149 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: at the age of twelve, seeing him laid in an 150 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: open casket, his skull quote split open like a melon 151 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: and sewed together loosely with jagged stitches. Terrible. And again 152 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: she hasn't seen her dad since she was three, so 153 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: that's her second memory of her father. Basically horrible. Uh. 154 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: She called her family a united nation in Minister because 155 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: her maternal grandmother, Cornelia, had been born enslaved. She was 156 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: the daughter of an enslaved woman who was frequently raped 157 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: by her enslaver. Her grandfather, Robert, had been raised free 158 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, attending anti slavery meetings with Frederick Douglas and 159 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: Harriet Tubman. She also had Native American ancestry Her relatives 160 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: ranged from rich to poor, fair skinned with blue eyes, 161 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: too dark skinned with four sea curls. From Episcopalians two Quakers. 162 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: She grew up, as she said quote, a thin, wiry, 163 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: ravenous child. She was willful but eager to police. She 164 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: devoured snacks and books with equal enthusiasm, and by the 165 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: time she graduated high school at only fifteen years old, 166 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: she was editor in chief of the school newspaper, president 167 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: of the literary society, class secretary, member of the debate club, 168 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: a top student, and a forward on the basketball team. 169 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: What do any of those things? I mean? I was 170 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: president of the drama club. You're still president of the 171 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: drama never left. Yeah, she would have been one of 172 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: these kids who got like six hundred scholarships to like 173 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: every school in the world, just like her choice anywhere 174 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: she wanted to go right wrong. Because, of course, after 175 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: the Civil War ended and slavery was outlawed, white people 176 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: immediately did everything we could to keep black people from progressing. 177 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: In America, Laws deciding where formerly enslaved people could work 178 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: and exactly how much they could earn were passed in 179 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: many states. KKK violence surged like astronomically and by eighteen 180 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: ninety six, the Supreme Court upheld the right of white 181 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: people to segregate public and private spaces. I mean, as 182 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: long as there were equal facilities available for black citizens, right, 183 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: So of you, you could have a bathroom for white 184 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: people only as long as you also had a bathroom 185 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: for black people. Who right. And that was in the 186 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: plus c v. Ferguson decision, more commonly known as Separate 187 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: but Equal. And Polly hated segregation. And this is probably because, 188 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, she's grown up surrounded by a family that 189 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: is so full of variety. So she's like, this is bullshit. 190 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: You know, if we can all live together, what the 191 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: fun is going on? So even as a kid, she 192 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: walked everywhere rather than ride in segregated street cars. She 193 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: boycotted movie theaters instead of sitting in balconies reserved for 194 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: black audience members. And so she was kind of like, 195 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to go to the segregated North Carolina 196 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: college for black students. I don't want to go there. 197 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: She has set her sights up north and decided to 198 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: enroll at Columbia in New York because she deserves the best. Unfortunately, 199 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: while Columbia University was fine, with her being black, they 200 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: did object to her being a woman, so she was 201 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: welcome to attend their women's college, Barnard, but she couldn't 202 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: afford the tuition. The all women's school, Hunter College, was 203 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: free for New York residents, but she didn't live there. 204 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: Another problem was that black high schools in North Carolina 205 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: ended in eleventh grade, so she would have to re 206 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: enroll in high school in New York to get her 207 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: high school diploma first. So she had to move in 208 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: with a cousin and Queens to become a New York resident, 209 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: and she completed her senior year as the only black 210 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: student in a high school of four thousand students, and 211 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: she finally entered Hunter College, one of four black students. 212 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: Instead of staying with her sister in Queens, she lived 213 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: at the Harlem y m c A. And there she 214 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: became friends with Lankston Hughes, and she met W. E. B. Dubois. 215 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: She heard lectures from activist Mary mclaude Bethune, and she 216 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: went to the Apollo to see Duke Ellington and Cab Callaway, 217 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: and she worked towards becoming a writer. He is living 218 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: it up like the height of the Harlem Renaissance. Definitely 219 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: a place I would go as a time traveling tourists, 220 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: a place to pick that would be really dope. You 221 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: would get some eyes I would not blend in. Yeah, 222 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: and you know rightfully, so I think they would be 223 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: worried to see you, and yeah, they would hopefully, you know, 224 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: hopefully for the future. It is not great, but better 225 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: not talking. I'm not telling anyone anything. But then the 226 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: giant crash of October. Polly had been making a living waitressing, 227 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: but soon lost all her customers and then her job 228 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: due to the depression, and became so impoverished that she 229 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: ended her second year of college sick with malnutrition. Like 230 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: that's how hungry she was, and maybe that's part of 231 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: the reason that she married a man named William roy 232 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: Wynn known as Billy Wynn in secret on November However, 233 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: You're an awkward two day honeymoon at a cheap hotel. 234 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: Polly realized this whole thing was a big mistake. She 235 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: wrote years later that she was repelled by the act 236 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: of sexual intercourse. She wrote, quote, why is it when 237 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: men try to make love to me? Something in me fights? 238 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: And after a couple of months they separated and Billy 239 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: left town and she did not contact him again until 240 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: they annulled their marriage in now Okay. These days, some 241 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: scholars have said that Polly would identify as a transgender male, 242 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: but of course she didn't have that language available to 243 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: her at the time. Reminds me of Lily Elbe. We 244 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: talked about her experience. A lot of things remind me 245 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: of Lilian, right, and it's a similar era, I mean, 246 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: early twentieth century. Actually, Lily would pass away from her 247 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: second surgery only a year later after this marriage. That 248 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: was that. But whatever the case, it's clear that she 249 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: strug gold with her gender identity and her sexuality. She 250 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: thought of herself as a mixture of genders, or more often, 251 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: quote one of nature's experiments, a girl who should have 252 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: been a boy. She wore her hair short, and she 253 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: preferred wearing pants skirts. She had a pretty slight frame, 254 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: so she sometimes was mistaken for a teenage boy. After 255 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: her brief marriage, she shortened her name from Pauline to Polly, 256 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: though she also experimented with the names paul and Dude, 257 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: which is a great name. Love. It just went by dude, 258 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: like hey, hey, dude, dude. Good to meet you, dude. Also, 259 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: it's like if your name is guy, you know, like 260 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: I'll never forget because if I do, I'm just gonna 261 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: say hey guy, like wow, you remembered. Yeah. I totally 262 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: says that at some point in the nineteen thirties, she 263 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: asked doctors for exploratory surgery to check for quote secreted 264 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: male genitals, and she tried to convince them to give 265 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: her hormone treatments. This is something that reminds me a 266 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: lot about Lily that Lily. If you remember episode on 267 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: lilyan gerda Um, Lily had talked a lot about how 268 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: justified she felt in her gender struggles when the doctors 269 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: found out that she had like an underformed ovaries, and 270 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: I feel like Polly was looking for the same, a 271 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: similar justification for for how she was feeling internally. She 272 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: couldn't find a reason for it, and she really wanted 273 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: a reason. But actually the doctors were like, you actually 274 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: have less testosterone than most women. You have no nothing 275 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: going on interest, just who she was. She also acknowledged 276 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: the term homosexual describing others, but with herself she preferred 277 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: saying that she had a quote inverted sex instinct that 278 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: caused her to behave more like a man. But New 279 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: Yorker points out that quote. By way of explaining why 280 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: she believed she was a head real sexual man, Marie 281 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: noted that she didn't like to go to bars, wanted 282 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship, and was attracted exclusively to extremely feminine women. 283 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: All of that is less a convincing case for her 284 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: convoluted heterosexuality than for her cultures harsh assessment of the 285 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: possibilities of lesbianism. So, yeah, she was just like lesbians 286 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: like to sleep around and go out drinking, and they're 287 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: all real butch looking. I guess there's a thing. But 288 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: that's definitely more of a stereotype that existed at that 289 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: time she could have maybe today might more freely accept 290 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: the term lesbian than at that time. Maybe. I mean, 291 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: we see this, I feel like pretty regularly too. If 292 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: people who lack the modern language that we have to 293 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: explore gender and sexuality, still some of that stems from 294 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: their own predisposed ideas about what these identities mean. And 295 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: so it's sort of like rooted in stereotype just because 296 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: they they're uneducated on yeah, because it didn't exist yet. Well, 297 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: and sometimes they were pointing out that she was being brave, 298 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: really brave by looking into it and like researching it 299 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: and trying to find anything written about you know, quote 300 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: unquote sexual deviance. Um, but there it is, you know, 301 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: right there. You have to look in a book that 302 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: says your sexual deviance. That makes it really hard, I 303 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: think to like try to absorb that into yourself and 304 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: as you're part of your identity, let me learn more 305 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: about myself from this paper that talks about what trash 306 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: I am? Hey, you are you a piece of ship? 307 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: Read this book? Like no one wants to read them. 308 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: No one wants to identify with that, you know. Um 309 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: So anyway, yeah, that's I did laugh though that she 310 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: was saying that, Oh, I'm I'm like a heterosexual man 311 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: because I don't like to go to bars or like 312 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: sleep around. Come on, now, have you met a heterosexual man? 313 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: Maybe going to bars? More like heterosexual man because I 314 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: exclusively believe in monogamy. What I'm sorry, I'm trying to 315 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: think of a man, right, But anyway, you can see 316 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: where she was just really coming up against walls trying to, 317 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, understand this about yourself throughout her life. So 318 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: she graduated from Hunter College with a degree in English 319 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty three, probably the worst year in American 320 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: history to be entering the workforce unless you invested in 321 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: like a chain of kissing booths in January, that's the 322 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: second worst time to get into a workforce. Specific things 323 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: went downhill for you. Yeah, I'll tell you, it's gonna 324 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: be all the rage inw just free love. Everybody's just 325 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: gonna be mashing their naked faces together. Sounds bad, even 326 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: pre pandemic, honestly, if I could be honest. So Pouli 327 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: found a job selling subscriptions to the Opportunity, which was 328 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: an academic journal of the civil rights organization National Urban League. 329 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: But eventually she became too unwell to continue like walking 330 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: around selling subscriptions, and she was diagnosed with pleurisy, and 331 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: her or advised her to find a healthier climate, you know, 332 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: recover your strength. I wish doctors would prescribe that. I 333 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: wish a doctor would tell me, you know what, for 334 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: your own health, you should probably move to Tuscany. I 335 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: don't know if you say so. Doctors going to cover that? 336 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: Can you write me a note? Now? It is no. 337 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: But fortunately that same year President Roosevelt authorized the funding 338 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: for She She She camps thanks to the urging of 339 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: his wife Eleanor Roosevelt. So again, unemployment was so terrible 340 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: during the Depression that Roosevelt established nationalized voluntary work programs 341 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: called the Civilian Conservation Corps or c c C. And 342 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: these were this was for like young, married, unemployed men 343 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: to come and have some work doing some government infrastructure 344 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: jobs like creating man made lakes, building damns, fighting wildfires, 345 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: and other conservation work like that, and they got paid 346 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: a wage of thirty dollars per month, twenty two to 347 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: five dollars of which had to be sent back to 348 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: their families. So just to put that in a context, 349 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: I think I'll pull out our calculators. Let's see, that 350 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: would be six hundred and fifty eight dollars today, So 351 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: five hundred and forty of that had to be sent home, 352 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: So you were left with a hundred and eighteen dollars 353 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: for the entire month in today's money. In today's money, 354 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: eighteen dollars barely gets me through a day, you know, 355 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: I mean, what's a copp of coffee now, like it's 356 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: just a banana. Michael. Yeah, it was so cool. I 357 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: remember learning about the c c C. When we did 358 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: our camping trip in Utah, of we got to drive 359 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: through State Route twelve, which is this amazing scenic road 360 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: that kind of winds through the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument, 361 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: which is one of the coolest places I've ever been. 362 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: It's like going to Mars, so awesome, and there's all 363 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: these stops along where you can kind of get these 364 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: incredible scenic views. And there was a lot of signs 365 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: up about how Zavelt had the c c C come 366 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: out there, and uh, a lot of men were given 367 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: jobs sort of like uh, cultivating this landscape and helping 368 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: build the national parks. It's super awesome stuff. Yeah, it's 369 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: kind of a cool like two birds with one stone 370 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: program because it was like, let's employ some people, which 371 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: is desperately needed, and also improved the infrastructure of the 372 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: country at the same time. And I was like, oh, 373 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: that seems smart. Yeah, it seems smarts, Like that would 374 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: be a real good idea. I think another bridge just 375 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: crumbled something anyway, But Eleanor thought it wasn't very fair 376 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: to leave unemployed women out of this program. Again, this 377 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: is just for young married men. And she's like, actually, 378 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: women have been hit hardest by this depression, UM, and 379 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: they're being left out of all these programs meant to 380 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: address what's going on. UM and she knew that there 381 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: were women in America who were willing to work in 382 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: forestry and conservation if they were getting money to send 383 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: back to their families. So the first she she she 384 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: camp was born Camp Tara, or Temporary Emergency Relief Assistance. 385 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: I know, she she is that would never fly to 386 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's like you if it's I know. I 387 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I don't know if that would work out. 388 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. We got, she sheds. We 389 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: did get, she showed, but that was also laughed at. True, 390 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: So I don't know. And so Camp Tara is where 391 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: Polly ended up at the end of nineteen thirty three 392 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: to recover her health. Let's find out about her time 393 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: there after a short break. Sounds good, welcome back campers, okay, 394 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: So Polly regained her health there at Camp Tera. She 395 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: she she camp, and she actually got to meet Eleanor 396 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: Roosevelt at one point, but she clashed with the director 397 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: of the camp, who was a bit of an authoritarian. 398 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: It seems she ran it in kind of a semi 399 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: military fashion, which this is a little ironic because Fdr 400 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: always made sure that the c C C camps were 401 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: never military at all, because he desperately did not want 402 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: them to resemble the Hitler youth program in any way. 403 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: It's like, this is this cannot look like the American 404 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: version of Hitler Youth. This is a totally different thing. 405 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: Do not run this like a drill sergeant. But that's 406 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: exactly what this director seemed to do. She didn't really 407 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: like Polly's attitude when she met the first lady because 408 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: Polly didn't stand up when they were introduced. All that mean, 409 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: but she was there like for literally a medical diagnosis 410 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: of being exhausted, sod a medically tired. Okay, I'm sitting down. 411 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: Oh lord, my doctor said I should go live in Tuscany. 412 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: You're lucky I'm even here, if only. And then this 413 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: director found a copy of Dust Capital by Karl Marx 414 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: and Polly's stuff, which Polly just had from a college 415 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: course at Hunter. But this director is like communists. But 416 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: most of all, this director disapproved of Polly's relationship with 417 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: her fellow ounceler, a white woman named peg Holes First Love. 418 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: So the director kicked them both out of the camp, 419 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: and Paulin and Peg just sort of like hoboat around 420 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 1: for a while, just hopping on freight trains, hitchhiking, you know, bindles, 421 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: the cooking a can of beans under a bridge, over 422 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: a bucket fire. I imagine. Yeah, I wonder if she 423 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: knew about hobo signs, the little put up like a 424 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: secret code, like this bridge is safe. Careful, there's a 425 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: patrol around here. If you see a little squiggle, it 426 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: means certain things. Yeah, you can sleep here and the 427 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: owner won't won't run you out or whatever. Right, they 428 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: had little little codes, so I imagine she picked up 429 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: on those pretty cool. And during this time Pauline actually 430 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: traveled disguised as a man. New Yorker writes that quote, 431 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: she learned all about the labor movement, stood in her 432 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: first picket line, joined a faction of the Communist Party USA, 433 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: and then resigned from that party a year later because 434 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: she found the party's discipline irksome. I get it. She's 435 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: not one to take to get pushed around by nobody. No, 436 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: she does not like constraints, right, but yeah, that while 437 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: while she's riding the rails is when she was sort 438 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: of saying, I'm Paul, I'm dude, I'm Steve, Like she's 439 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: trying different names out, and yeah, wearing pants, wearing her 440 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: hair short, you know, wearing a men's hats and stuff. 441 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: So I wonder if that was also for safety of travel, 442 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: like two women traveling together. I was going to ask 443 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: that couple, I feel like a couple. Yeah, And I 444 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: do think it's interesting because, for example, um, I'm looking 445 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: back our Elagablus story, because she said her whole life, 446 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: I am the Empress, you called me your empress, you 447 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: will address me as such. So it became very clear 448 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: that even though Alcabilis didn't have the sort of modern 449 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: conversations and dialogue and and education, we could still glean 450 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: from that very clearly that she wanted to use she 451 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: pronounced she wanted to go by the name Algablus. Like 452 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: with Polly, we definitely kind of have been trying to 453 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of figure that out. Is different, takes some different articles, 454 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: but we can only kind of assume what Dr Murray 455 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: might have wanted today, right, So honestly, really it just 456 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: kind of points to the sort of complexity and the 457 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: fluidity of gender and conversations around gender, which are both 458 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: quite fluid and change all the time. Yeah, yeah, totally, 459 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: much like gender itself, very fluid. Yeah, um, yeah, we 460 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 1: we saw some. There are some scholars who who have 461 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: have retroactively applied he him, and some use all pronouns throughout, 462 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: just depending what part of her life therein. And for example, 463 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture 464 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: says that for their exhibit about Dr Murray quote, throughout 465 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: both the physical and online exhibition, the museum has decided 466 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: to use she her pronouns, keeping with historical precedent, and 467 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: have identified Murray as she identified herself in accordance with 468 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: our language guide. So yeah, they all kind of each 469 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: source kind of takes their own stance on it, I guess, 470 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: and chooses their own their own way of going forward. 471 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: But they kind of all acknowledge that it is a 472 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: conversation that's ongoing and that's very fluid, and that they'll 473 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: probably update as they go. I mean, we don't have 474 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: that luxury, I guess, but as as it evolves, they can, 475 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, evolve the way they talk about Polly. Yeah, 476 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, especially when we get into Police's future. 477 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: As the episode goes on, we'll learn that her experiences 478 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: as a woman in the world really kind of define 479 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: her legacy. And of course, again this is at a 480 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: point in time where you know, if she were to 481 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: identify as trans today, that would be a big part 482 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: of her experiences back then. They weren't talking to her 483 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: like that. She wasn't speaking like that. She was speaking largely, 484 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: especially as she moved forward in her professional career, about 485 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: her experience in the world as a woman surrounded by 486 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: all these CIS men like that are constantly challenging her 487 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: in both black and white spaces. Um, she's she's having 488 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: she's up against the wall of these guys a lot. 489 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: So we, like you said, like, we don't particularly feel 490 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: confident on this show sort of making that decision for 491 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: her posthumously. Uh, we're kind of taking the Smithsonian's angle 492 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: here and saying, you know, she wrote in her books 493 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: about herself using she her pronouns. Yes, things might have 494 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: been different where she around today. Um, but it really, 495 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: ultimately it just us bring up that same thing that 496 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: the conversation around gender gender itself both very complex issues. Uh. 497 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: And what's kind of cool about it is that we're 498 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: living in the middle of this conversation right now, right, 499 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: it's happening all around us in all kinds of different places. 500 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: Is I'm fascinated by it and I love to just 501 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: listen to it, and kind of I feel like I'm 502 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: just at a movie sometimes, just like watching the story unfold, Like, well, 503 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: I'll just sit here and listen to the story. Cool, 504 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: let me know what's happening next. Yeah, that's awesome to me. 505 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: I don't get why people are like so resistant to 506 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: these these cultural conversations happening. I'm like, let it play out. 507 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: Get I'm not getting involved. It's got nothing to do 508 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: with me. They just think it's kind of cool to 509 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: see happen. Well, maybe they don't want to change the 510 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: behaviors that need to be changed. Well yeah, I mean 511 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: that people, But it is so weird to be like, well, 512 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: I think about chromosomes all the time. Come on, you 513 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: don't give any of that exactly. You know you don't. 514 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: You only just started care for some fucking reason, right, 515 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: because you want to be contrary and I guess, or 516 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: make your decision whatever, get real stuck in it for 517 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: some reason. I don't know why people do that, but 518 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: people do do that. People do do that. Yeah, but 519 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: but and that again, it just comes back to that 520 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: it's a complicated issue and there's a complex thing and uh, 521 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: and all we can do is kind of keep listening, 522 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: um to what's going on, take part if it involves you, 523 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: and and sit back and listen if it doesn't, because 524 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: it is complicated. And yeah, the expiration of gender is 525 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: a complicated issue. Um, but using someone's correct pronouns when 526 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: they ask you to is not complicated. All it is, 527 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: super uncomplicated, is extremely fucking easy to do. Actually, Um, 528 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: so yeah, don't don't I mean, don't be like, oh, 529 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: it's very complicated, just so you don't change your behavior 530 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: because that's the thing that's making it difficult now exactly, 531 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: you know. Yes, So in she applied to go to 532 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: graduate school for sociology at the University of North Carolina. Now, 533 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: they didn't accept black students, but Polly had family ties. 534 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: Two of her Enslaver relatives had attended, another had been 535 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: on the board of trustees, and another created a permanent scholarship. 536 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: So she was kind of like, I think I have 537 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: a right to be here, and I love that. I 538 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: really love that. Let me tell you about my great, 539 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: great grandfather. Oh you want a legacy candidate, I'll tell 540 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: you about some of my family. But six days after 541 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: she applied, the letter came, quote, dear miss Murray, I 542 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: write to state that members of your race are not 543 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: admitted to the university. And I'm just going to pull 544 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: into speculation station and say that. The letter went on 545 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: to say, because we all have a big, fat, poopy 546 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: diapers that are really taken up all of our time 547 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: right now. Yes, I think that's probably accurate. I think 548 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: that's accurate. So what's ironic is that in this instance, 549 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: separate but equal should actually have worked in Polly's favor, 550 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: because only two days before she got her rejection letter, 551 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had said that segregated rules had to 552 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: admit black students if they did not have an equivalent available, 553 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: and they did not in in North Carolina. But the 554 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: legislature of North Carolina got around this whole thing by 555 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: promising to set up a college for black students just 556 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: as soon as we can, we swear promise. Wow, And 557 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: they went for that. They said, Okay, I know. Supreme 558 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: Court was like, we trust you. Your records pretty good, 559 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: North Carolina. Okay, come on racial equality and instead. You know, 560 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: obviously they slashed its budget by two thirds and completely 561 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: ignored it and did nothing. So they just got away 562 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: with it. But we're getting to it eventually. Yeah. Yeah. 563 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: At some point, so Pauli asked then Double A CP 564 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: to help her sue U n C, but the Double 565 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: A CPS said no because they thought that her being 566 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: a New York resident was going to hurt the case. 567 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 1: Isn't that ironic? She couldn't go to school in New 568 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: York because she was a resident of North Carolina, So 569 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: she became a resident of New York and then could 570 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: not sue North Carolina because she wasn't a resident of 571 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: her home state. I'm just like, she must have been like, God, 572 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 1: damn it, We're not a United States so frustrating. Dr 573 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: Patricia Bell Scott has argued that it was also because 574 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: of Pauli's openly queer life. So yes, So bell Scott 575 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: is some one of these scholars who is talking talks 576 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: a lot about her sexuality, her gender identity, and it's 577 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: her opinion that the n Double A CP was maybe 578 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 1: engaging in a little bit of respectability politics this time, 579 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: because of course, obviously, first of all, they want cases, 580 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: they can win. So if they feel like they can't win, 581 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: they're not going to take the case no matter how 582 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: good it is. And secondly, they want the person the 583 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: defendant to be the quote unquote right type of black 584 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: person to kind of further the cause. I think it's 585 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: like now when we talk about immigration, you have to 586 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: talk about the doctors and lawyers that come from other 587 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: countries and like, but also there's people who just they 588 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: just work a normal, like an everyday job, but they 589 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: go home and they do normal ship and they're not 590 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: like I also think they should be allowed to live. Um. 591 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: So I think it's something like similar to that. You know, 592 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: in that time period, they were like, we just need 593 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: you to be a nice, straight, well dressed, educated, well 594 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: spoken person so that you don't look like a scary 595 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: black person or something to all the crazy white people 596 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: were dealing with, right, because they were dealing with such 597 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: crazy white people, you know, like you've got to kind 598 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: of you understand where they're coming from, because it's like, 599 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: look who we have, look at the assholes we have 600 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: to impress you. They'll use they are yeah, they'll use 601 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: literally and they go, you you tied your left shoe 602 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: before your right shoe. No, I don't think so pretty 603 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: much close, yeah, and when we still see that, so 604 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: you know, I can see why it feels itchy. But 605 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: it's also like I can see why where the logic 606 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: is for it, even though it's not like emotionally nice, 607 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: you can see why they might have just been like, 608 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: you're not the right kind of candidate for us. Um. 609 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: How for all everything written down, all the evidence that's 610 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: written that you can look at, is because she was 611 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: not a resident of the stage. That's the official reason. Gotcha. 612 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: So Polly also wrote both of the Roosevelt's, asking them 613 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: to denounce You and See and criticizing FDR for accepting 614 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: an honorary degree from them, but nothing ended up working. 615 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: She did not attend You and See at any point. However, 616 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: this was the beginning of her lifelong correspondence with the 617 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt. She responded to Polly's letter with 618 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: an invitation to tea. According to Kenneth mac and The 619 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: Boston Review, in an article titled Polly Murray Eleanor Roosevelt's 620 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: Beloved Radical, their relationship was remarkable for the way Polly 621 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: could get under Eleanor's skin, Eleanor once called a letter 622 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: from Paully quote one of the most thoughtless I have 623 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,919 Speaker 1: ever read, to which Polly replied, quote, you have been 624 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: utterly frank with me, and I should like to be 625 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: equally frank with you. So don't start, man, won't be Eleanor. 626 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it like it is. I love 627 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: Eleanor's like, you didn't have a lot of deference in 628 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: that letter, and She's like, I'm sorry, what's deference? I 629 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: don't have that for anyone? I don't think like. No, 630 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: she definitely they both were like pretty close for years, 631 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: and they both cited one another as big inspirations for 632 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: quite a lot of things. So yeah, a productively contentious relationship, 633 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: I saw it. But Polly experienced an emotional breakdown when 634 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: her relationship with Peg ended again her first love, this 635 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: woman she had rode the rails with and done all 636 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: this stuff with, defied that shitty director of the crap 637 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: camp and everything. Unfortunately, I can't find anything about Peg herself, 638 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: so we can't say much about who she was as 639 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: a person or anything. But probably was pretty cool. I'm 640 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: just going to decide that regulation she was awesome, kicked, 641 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: pretty cool, lady homes. But yeah, Polly had like just 642 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: a total breakdown when they broke up, and she ended 643 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: up going to the Bellevue Hospital in New York for 644 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: psychiatric treatment. When she left, she was with her hospital 645 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: roommate and new girlfriend, Adeleine McBean, which is just an 646 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: amazing name. Children about Kane. I love it. I mean, 647 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm getting big Amelia Badelia vibes Satelene McBain. Hopefully she 648 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: wasn't as dumb as Amelia Badelia, literature's dumbest character. I know. 649 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: The only thing I remember from an Amelia Badelia book 650 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: was somebody asked her to draw a bath, and you 651 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: know that she pulled out a sketch pad. Do you 652 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: know what she did drawing a bath? I know, it's 653 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: it's a It's a shock that she was still employed 654 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: by the end of that amazing, I mean it really should. 655 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: You just actually had a lot of respect for her employers, 656 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: very patiently and alright, look, she's incredibly literal. So everybody 657 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: think about drags from Guardians, Yes, Amelia, but deal, it 658 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: was the original drags and I love that. Oh lord. 659 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: So anyway, she's with her Amelia Badelia Adeline McBean, and 660 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: they boarded a public bus to get back to Polly's 661 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,959 Speaker 1: family in Durham for the Easter holidays. Even though Polly 662 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: hated taking segregated transit, it was really her least favorite thing. 663 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: She wrote that the intimacy of the space quote permitted 664 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,919 Speaker 1: the public humiliation of black people to be carried out 665 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: in the presence of privileged white spectators who witnessed our 666 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: shame and silence or indifference. Well, that just lays it 667 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: out so clearly, Yeah, what was wrong with Oh my god, 668 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: that's like I literally have to get into this tiny 669 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: space and squeeze my ass past all you jerks and 670 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: all the empty seats available and go sit in the 671 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 1: worst section. Well, and more than that, it just points out, 672 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: like why it's so much more than just me having 673 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: to sit in the back of the bus. This is 674 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: every time I get on the bus, it's further reinforcing 675 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: this idea that we are less than that all these 676 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: white people already believe and even even I would think 677 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: less directly racist white people who might not think twice 678 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: about it, and they're not not really care who's on 679 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: the bus, where subconsciously are getting reinforced with this idea constantly, 680 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: Well you're better, so you can seat at the front 681 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: of the bus. Like, yeah, that's that's such a brilliant 682 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: way to put it. Yeah, she's good at that. She's 683 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: very good at that. So when they had to change 684 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: buses in Virginia, of course that was the South, so 685 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: they had to move to the back of the bus 686 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: where black people are mandated to sit, but all the 687 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: seats reserved for the black passengers were broken, so they 688 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: were like, well, we're gonna move to ones in the 689 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: white section. They sat down, and they had been talking 690 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: about Gandhian civil disobedience like you do with your lover. 691 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, whenever we're on a bus together. First, I 692 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: love it. I love They're just like staring into each 693 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: other's eyes, like I love non violande, I love john violence. 694 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking about next summer hunger strike. 695 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,280 Speaker 1: I was thinking about a hunger strike. Perfect, You're so beautiful. 696 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: So this was not a planned thing, but when they 697 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: were they had just been talking about, you know, non 698 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: violent forms of protest. They sat in the white section, 699 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: and so when they were asked to move and move 700 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: into sit in those broken as seats, they politely refused 701 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: and continued to sit where they were sitting, and of 702 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: course the cops were called. They were arrested and thrown 703 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: in jail. Now, the N double A CP was interested 704 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: this time, but Virginia knew the issue of segregation was 705 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: heating up and they didn't want to call down the thunder. 706 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: So instead of charging Paully and Adeline with breaking segregation laws, 707 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: they only charged them with disorderly conduct and they were 708 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: fined about forty five dollars, which, just checking again, transfer 709 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: rate is over eight hundred dollars today. That's a lot. 710 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: That's a lot of money for sitting on the bus, 711 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, And it's that same they're like, oh, well, 712 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: it's not it's not a racial issue. It's just like 713 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: you should have you should have listened to that police officer. Boy, 714 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: isn't that always the case? Polly had been presenting as 715 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: male while traveling with Adeline, and she'd even given her 716 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: name as Oliver when she was arrested, so Dr Bell 717 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: Scott has argued that possibly the N double A CP 718 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: was again like, you know, let's not put a spotlight 719 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: on this case, particularly this one, not the right. So 720 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: instead the Workers Defense League came in and paid their fine, 721 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: and a few months later they gave Paully a job. 722 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: And it was through this administrative position that she got 723 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: involved in the case of Odell Waller, who was a 724 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: black Virginia's sharecropper who had been sentenced to death because 725 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: he killed his white landlord during an argument, and the 726 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: Workers Defense League was arguing that he had been in 727 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: legitimate fear for his life, that they had been like 728 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: really going at it. He thought his at landlord was 729 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: going to kill him, he killed him in self defense. 730 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: So Polly was traveling around raising money for Odell's defense, 731 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: and she wrote to her friend Eleanor Roosevelt on his behalf, 732 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 1: and Eleanor actually reached out. She personally asked the governor 733 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: of Virginia to ensure that Odell got a fair trial, 734 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,759 Speaker 1: pretty telling that the first lady has to ask for 735 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 1: that sort of I think a thing that we already 736 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: expect in this country, but anyways, sort of in the constitution. Um. 737 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: And then she she also privately asked her husband, the president, 738 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: to commute his death sentence as well, but ultimately Odell 739 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: was executed in ninety two. After all that, Polly got 740 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: very interested in a career in civil rights law. She 741 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,240 Speaker 1: became a passionate orator, and after a speech she gave 742 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: at a w D. L rally, a young lawyer named 743 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: Third Good Marshall wrote her a letter of recommendation to 744 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: Howard University School of Law, where he was an alumnus. 745 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: She was awarded a scholarship, and she said she went 746 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: in why the one thing on her mind, overturning Jim 747 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: Crow laws. Now, Howard wasn't all black school, so finally 748 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: she was in a class surrounded by black people, but 749 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: she still stood out. She was the only woman. On 750 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: her first day. One of her law professors said in 751 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: front of her entire class that he quote didn't understand 752 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: why a woman would want to go to law school. 753 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: Uh wow, I mean it's still appointed to be the 754 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: only woman in the room and have him just generally 755 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 1: tell the whole room like, why would a lady want 756 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: to be here? Also, my answer to that would be, Uh, 757 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: the reason is exactly what you just said. That's exactly 758 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,760 Speaker 1: what I thought. I was like the thing that women 759 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: have gotten fucked over so many times in history for 760 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: not understanding the law and how they're protected by it. 761 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: And of course women should go to law school? Are 762 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: you kidding? I want to go to law school because 763 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 1: you think I shouldn't. How about that? How about that? Now? 764 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: She was obviously humiliated by this comment open in class 765 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: to everyone, but also, as she said it quote, guaranteed 766 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: that I became the top student's pistols like oh you bitch, 767 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,919 Speaker 1: watch me. She referred to this type of discrimination as 768 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: Jane Crow and as the Smithsonian Rights. She quote subsequently 769 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: became an active member of the Congress of Racial Equality 770 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: or CORE, and contributed to the growing dialogue on the 771 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: intersection of racial and gender based discrimination. She also participated 772 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: in sit ins at restaurants with discriminatory seating policies in Washington, 773 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: d C. Years before the prevalence of those sit ins 774 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties. It was at Howard that 775 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: she would place her bet about Plessy versus Ferguson. And 776 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: we'll hear more about that right after this commercial. Yeah, 777 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: all right, and welcome back to the show. Okay, So 778 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: it's Polly's and Howard University, and she and her classmates 779 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: are having a spirited discussion about how to bring about 780 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 1: the end of Jim Crow laws. Now Ever, since the 781 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 1: landmark Separate but Equal decision in civil rights. Lawyers had 782 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: been questioning the equal part, so they were kind of 783 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: trying to chip away at it by being like, Okay, 784 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 1: here's a specific white school up against a specific black school, 785 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: and they don't quite measure up to the same quality 786 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 1: of facilities or whatever, in order to kind of say 787 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: this law is not not great. It's not you're not 788 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: doing what you say is supposed to do. Um. But 789 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: that wasn't really working. Again, it was really small gains, 790 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: if any, from that argument, and so Polly said, why 791 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: not challenge the separate part instead? And the response was 792 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 1: quote hoots of derisive laughter, as she wrote in her memoir. 793 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: But she bet her professor Spotswood Robinson ten dollars that 794 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: PLUSY would be overturned within twenty five years, and her thesis, 795 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: her senior thesis paper, formalized her argument that separate but 796 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: Equal violated and fourteenth amendments of the U. S. Constitution. 797 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: So she was just straight up like, forget that, it 798 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: doesn't even matter if they're equal. The thing is we 799 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: should not be separate by race. That's ridiculous. Now. PAULI graduated, 800 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: of course, at the top of her class, just like 801 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: she said she would, and she was elected Chief Justice 802 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 1: of the Howard Court of Peers, which normally would have 803 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:45,280 Speaker 1: resulted in a scholarship to Harvard, But Harvard didn't accept women, 804 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: even one who had a recommendation letter from the Ding 805 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,399 Speaker 1: Dang President of the United States, like PAULI did. Now 806 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 1: imagine that you applied to a school and the President 807 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,080 Speaker 1: Franklin Delano Roosevelt has written a recommendation letter for you, 808 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: and they're like, still not good enough. If we lead 809 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: one woman in, what's next? Two women? I would a 810 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: woman even want to go to law school? They gave 811 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: her the Jane Crow version of her old U n 812 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,240 Speaker 1: C Letter, saying, quote, you are not of the sex 813 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: entitled to be admitted to Harvard Law School. So she 814 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 1: wrote back, quote, gentlemen, I would gladly change my sex 815 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: to meet your requirements, but since the way to such 816 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 1: change has not yet been revealed to me, I have 817 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: no recourse but to appeal to you to change your 818 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,359 Speaker 1: minds on this subject. Are you telling me that one 819 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: is as difficult as the other? Damn tell him? Tell them? Oh, 820 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Is it harder for you to change your 821 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: minds than it is for me to change my holding. 822 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: Dang gender. Okay, I can't find a penis to attach, 823 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,760 Speaker 1: right or trust me? I would have is stand Sorry, 824 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: I also love You're not of the sex entitled to 825 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 1: be admitted. That's such a choice of words. Oh yeah, 826 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 1: they said what they meant. Oh yeah, their lawyers they 827 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: chose that word very specifically, and I hate it. But 828 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: it didn't work. She never did get in. Yeah. I 829 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,399 Speaker 1: think Harvard was really busy at that time where their 830 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: balls were shrinking back into their bodies. So after that, 831 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: we're just like withdrawing away from the ground into their bodies. 832 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: So they were like, oh no, you know, and they 833 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: were really worried about that. Right. So she went to 834 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,720 Speaker 1: Berkeley instead, and she wrote a paper arguing for equal 835 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: opportunity in employment, and after graduation, she was named the 836 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 1: first black district attorney in California. The next year, she 837 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: was named Woman of the Year by Mademoiselle magazine, and 838 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,919 Speaker 1: she was approached by the Methodist Church. They opposed segregation, 839 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 1: and they wanted to be able to give out some 840 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: information about how it negatively impacted their mission, and in 841 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 1: the thirty one states where they had parishes, could Polly 842 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,839 Speaker 1: write up a little pamphlet for them explaining the segregation 843 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: laws in America. Well could Polly, ever, because in response, 844 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 1: Polly published a seven hundred and seventy six page book 845 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty called States Laws on Race and Color. 846 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,839 Speaker 1: So she walked into the Methodist church, it was like, 847 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: on their desk, here's that pamphlet you asked for two 848 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: years ago. They're like, oh my god. And it was 849 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: so comprehensive that the a c LU distributed copies to 850 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: law libraries, black colleges, and human rights organizations. Third Good 851 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: Marshall kept stacks of them around in the n double 852 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: a c P offices and famously called it the Bible 853 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: of the civil rights movement because, as Smithsonian rites quote, 854 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,840 Speaker 1: the book skillfully illustrates the social implications and unconstitutionality of 855 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,240 Speaker 1: segregation laws. And the social implications parts really important, because 856 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: she got made of in law school for wanting to 857 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 1: include in her arguments about how unconstitutional segregation was the 858 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 1: fact that it had this heavy weight, this heavy social 859 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,959 Speaker 1: emotional psychological weight to it. It wasn't, as you said, 860 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't just sitting in the back of the bus. 861 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 1: It's all the rest of it. It's very invisible and 862 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: you can't look at it, and I can't. You can't 863 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,359 Speaker 1: experience it. I can experience it. I can tell you 864 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,239 Speaker 1: about it. But that's it. That. But there's so much 865 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: more to it than you understand. You're doing so much 866 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: more damage than you even understand. And they laughed at 867 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: her about that. They were like, they ain't gonna care 868 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 1: about that. But he and his team used her book 869 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 1: extensively to craft their arguments in Brown v. Board of Education, 870 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: the landmark case that overturned plus C v. Ferguson in 871 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four. New Yorker writes, quote, in this way, 872 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: to Murray's immense gratification, the book ultimately helped render itself obsolete. 873 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,360 Speaker 1: That's also but that is not her only contribution. Old 874 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: Spotswood Robinson was also on the team Brown v. Board 875 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 1: of Education, And when they got together, you know, convenient 876 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: to figure out their arguments, he remembered Polly's senior thesis 877 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,360 Speaker 1: paper that she had placed her bet on back in Howard, 878 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:19,879 Speaker 1: and he pulled it out. He showed it to them, 879 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 1: and they used her paper as a guide to strategize 880 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: their arguments. And it was the social implications thing that 881 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:32,319 Speaker 1: was the reason it got overturned. Incredible, but apparently they 882 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: didn't bother to tell her how much she contributed to 883 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: the case until Spotswood ran into her randomly at Howard 884 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: ten years later. Oh my god, I would have been like, 885 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,399 Speaker 1: what use this girl's paper? But let's not tell her. 886 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,600 Speaker 1: We're just won't write, or like what the I hope 887 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 1: she was immediately like, Okay, where's my ten dollars that 888 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: I opened that wallet? Spotswood laughing at me. Who's laughing? Now? 889 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: Look but this only scratches the surface of Polly's life. 890 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 1: She does so much more. She's about to get so 891 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: pissed at the civil rights movement for neglecting women in 892 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: their leadership, and she's about to go Hella bested at 893 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,480 Speaker 1: the women's rights organization she helped start for sidelining minorities. 894 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 1: She's about to integrate the church. She's about to meet 895 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,240 Speaker 1: the love of her life, and she's about to inspire 896 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,720 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg to argue the case of her life. 897 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: Paully had so much and she turned out to be 898 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: such an incredible character that, of course we had to 899 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: split this into two parts, so you know, We're going 900 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 1: to come back with the rest of her story next time, 901 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: which will does involve like her actual romance. I think 902 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the things with this story that we 903 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: were looking at is there's too much to tell about 904 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: her and this show. I think we've learned over the 905 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: close to a year that we've been doing it now 906 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,239 Speaker 1: that it it's not always a specific romance that we're 907 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: looking at, but rather UM, someone's unique experience with attraction 908 00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,239 Speaker 1: UM who or sometimes what they're attracted to UM and 909 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,600 Speaker 1: and that in and of itself is as much of 910 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,280 Speaker 1: a story as you know, a love story between two people. 911 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,560 Speaker 1: Definitely UM and that's such a big part of her life. 912 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: But we do get to meet her romantic partner in 913 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,879 Speaker 1: part two, person that she really fell for, and that's 914 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: very exciting too. Yeah, she's just PAULI is inspirational person. 915 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,279 Speaker 1: I'm like a little fucking mad that I've never heard 916 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,800 Speaker 1: of her before now, Yeah, because she's just in every 917 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,800 Speaker 1: facet of of everything. She has so much to offer, 918 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,200 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like someone who I was 919 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,839 Speaker 1: very interested in feminism from high school and I even 920 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,240 Speaker 1: remember being like feminism is like so awesome because women 921 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 1: are are everything women are gay, women are black, women 922 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,760 Speaker 1: are indigenous, women are are not Western there from other countries. 923 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:53,919 Speaker 1: Like if you want to care about if you want 924 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,360 Speaker 1: to work towards equal rice for women, then you have 925 00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: to work towards so many other movements, you know what 926 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,319 Speaker 1: I mean. Women are disabled and women you know what 927 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 1: I mean. But of course that was before I learned 928 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:10,560 Speaker 1: how much feminism was sidelining so many other identities, um 929 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: in within the movement in favor of specifically white women 930 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 1: and even more specifically white women with a certain amount 931 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,319 Speaker 1: of money. Um So, it's very interesting that in all 932 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,760 Speaker 1: of these intersections of class, of race, of gender, identity, 933 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,439 Speaker 1: of sexuality, she just has so much to say. Yeah, yeah, 934 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: and it's not just inspirational, but she's so educational. And 935 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 1: I think that's one thing I'm really excited for in 936 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: part two is we will get what's much more into 937 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:45,560 Speaker 1: the intersectionality arguments that like, for me, it's always just like, okay, intersectionality. 938 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,399 Speaker 1: Of course, yeah that sounds right, I'll go for it. 939 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,600 Speaker 1: But just because it seemed like the right thing, or 940 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,319 Speaker 1: the people I know who are smart are telling me, 941 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: this is what you should concern yourself with. She puts 942 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,279 Speaker 1: it into words that just makes it all click where 943 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that's why, of course, Like she really 944 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,920 Speaker 1: contextualizes things in an incredible way. Um that that's a 945 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 1: that's a really challenging skill. Even for some of the 946 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,760 Speaker 1: greatest leaders in these movements. It's still difficult to really explain. 947 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,800 Speaker 1: But why does this matter so much? I can see, 948 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, someone like me might say like, oh, I 949 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,439 Speaker 1: could see that it matters to you, and that's enough 950 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,160 Speaker 1: for me. But to really have someone explain it in 951 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,439 Speaker 1: a way that just like, oh my god, I get 952 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,960 Speaker 1: it now. I think it's so powerful. Yeah, And and 953 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,920 Speaker 1: it's like nice too, because she was so ahead of 954 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,160 Speaker 1: her time that she must have felt even a little 955 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,920 Speaker 1: bit of like impotence in all her words, because she 956 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,680 Speaker 1: she's sort of yelling into this void, like it must 957 00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: have felt a lot of her life that no one 958 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: was really listening or just like oh Polly again with 959 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 1: her crazy stuff. But then years later it would be 960 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,759 Speaker 1: the thing that did everything that she ever wanted it 961 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,120 Speaker 1: to do. And you know, it sucks that she didn't 962 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,160 Speaker 1: get the credit and the flowers at the time, but 963 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,080 Speaker 1: it didn't seem to be the main thing for her. 964 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,840 Speaker 1: She's just like, as long as the thing happens, I 965 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:11,640 Speaker 1: don't really care if my name is attached to it. 966 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,359 Speaker 1: And so I just think that's that's really cool to 967 00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: to learn, just like little moves. Now they do build, 968 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: they do build. Yeah, it's equally frustrating and awesome to 969 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,439 Speaker 1: see how long things take sometimes because that can that's 970 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,040 Speaker 1: very frustrating and it shouldn't be like that. And I 971 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: never settle for the excuse of well, it takes a 972 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 1: while to change people's minds and stuff like screw that. 973 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,640 Speaker 1: That's obnoxious. But it does also emphasize the fact that 974 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,400 Speaker 1: it can feel like you're spinning your wheels, but the 975 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:49,400 Speaker 1: work matters and it and these things often will pay 976 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 1: off later than you think they do. Sometimes it takes generations. 977 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:59,800 Speaker 1: Hopefully as our technology advances, our communication technology advances, the 978 00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: things can take less and less time. Um, but I 979 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: think that's truer now than it used to be. But 980 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,280 Speaker 1: you do see, I think that, like you said, these 981 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:15,440 Speaker 1: these little actions are what makes mountains move, you know. Yeah, 982 00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: And I just love this shoes out there being undeniable, 983 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,920 Speaker 1: like he could not sideline her. She's so important to 984 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,160 Speaker 1: all these movements too, that it was just like, well, 985 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: we might not like what she's saying, but there's no need. 986 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,160 Speaker 1: We gotta have her here. She's got to be on 987 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,560 Speaker 1: my side because she's killing it. So yeah, I hope 988 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,240 Speaker 1: you love this story. You know there's so much more. 989 00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 1: Please join us for part two. There's just so much 990 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,760 Speaker 1: more to come, right, It's going to be good and 991 00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 1: we will catch you all at the next episode. Don't 992 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,840 Speaker 1: forget to shoot. Does an email give us your thoughts? 993 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 1: Romance at iHeart media dot com right or we're on 994 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: social media on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Dynamite Boom 995 00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: and I'm at Oh Great. It's Eli and the show 996 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: is at ridic Romance. We can't wait to bring you 997 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,960 Speaker 1: the rest of the story too, and in and out 998 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,400 Speaker 1: We'll see you then. I love you so long. Friends, 999 00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,120 Speaker 1: It's time to go. Thanks for listening to our show. 1000 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 1: Tell your friends neighbor's uncle indance to listen to a 1001 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:13,560 Speaker 1: show Ridiculous roll Dance