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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffon.

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Speaker 1: Ever told your prediction of I heart Radios how staff works?

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Speaker 1: I did it again. I was just like, kind of

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Speaker 1: on my in my own world, was like, oh wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm suposed to say something cool. Cool. He's looking at socks.

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Speaker 1: Everybody she's looking at socks. Are nice. They are nice.

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Speaker 1: And today, as you record, this is your birthday. It

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Speaker 1: is my birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you give me some sacks,

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Speaker 1: some and some money, right, come on now, yes, kind

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Speaker 1: of related to keep my money. Were you good with money?

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Speaker 1: I'm not good with money. I've gotten better as i've

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Speaker 1: gotten older, for sure. And then also, um, as we

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Speaker 1: talked about, I don't know sure many people will experience

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Speaker 1: I'll live pay paycheck to paycheck and so because I

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Speaker 1: didn't make honestly enough to live in Atlanta. So and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people experience that, which is

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Speaker 1: why people millennials have been living with their parents because

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Speaker 1: it's hard. But yeah, no, I'm not really great with it.

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Speaker 1: But as I've gotten older, I've gotten a little more

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Speaker 1: since in understanding the fallout of debt and all of that.

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Speaker 1: So getting better not great? What about you improving. Um,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I'm pretty good. Yeah. I when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, I mean, starting like four or five,

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Speaker 1: every birthday, every holiday, I just saved money. I had

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Speaker 1: a little little bank you did. Save that Eastern money

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Speaker 1: for a very long save my Eastern money, that Christmas money,

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Speaker 1: my birthday money. Um. I was chosen to do that.

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Speaker 1: Do you did your school, your elementary school have that

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Speaker 1: little bank where students could like invest. No, I was

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Speaker 1: the bank, the owner. Um. And I was really good

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Speaker 1: at the strategies for saving money in fourth grade, very important.

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Speaker 1: And I think everyone knows I had my empire of

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Speaker 1: c D mixing. Right, you're a little um underground, underground

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Speaker 1: business in high school. So I left with a lot

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Speaker 1: um a couple of thousand dollars from high school saved.

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Speaker 1: And then here in Georgia we were talking about this yesterday.

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Speaker 1: I chose the school I did, the college I did

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Speaker 1: because of something called the Hope Scholarship, which essentially, if

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Speaker 1: you keep a certain g p a um, the state,

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Speaker 1: funded by a lottery money, pays for your tuition and

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Speaker 1: some book some for some books. I'm a lot older

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Speaker 1: than you, and they provided a little more for me

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Speaker 1: than I think they do, and then the requirements for

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Speaker 1: a little less intense. Um, because I was at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the program, essentially not quite beginning towards the

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Speaker 1: beginning to take myself a battle. Um. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: did the same thing because I couldn't go to college

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Speaker 1: without doing that. Honestly, Yeah, yeah, me too. And it

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Speaker 1: was really nice. It was really I feel really fortunate

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Speaker 1: now because I have so many friends struggling with student

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Speaker 1: debt and I left unscathed. Right. Um. And I from

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Speaker 1: the television show which is having quite a moment right now, friends,

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Speaker 1: I learned No. No, I mean, like, why is that

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Speaker 1: picking back up? So I don't keep going? It's Netflix,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know. But um, there's a line in

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Speaker 1: it from like the season two or three, very early on,

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Speaker 1: where Monica's dad says, what are you ten percent of

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Speaker 1: your paycheck? Where does it go? And she says, kind

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Speaker 1: of feebly, in the bank. But I thought that was

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Speaker 1: like a thing. It's so ten percent of my paycheck

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Speaker 1: for as long as I wouldn't pay Yeah, that's ridiculously smart.

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Speaker 1: And I still know I just set it up automatically. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I think I'm pretty good. And also I know

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Speaker 1: Bridget and I when we did an episode on Page Transparency,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about how this weirdness we have about

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Speaker 1: discussing money and salary UM, I would stay in general

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Speaker 1: United States everybody, but also kind of particularly women. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I've never had that, And I feel really fortunate

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Speaker 1: because my group of friends we were all about it,

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Speaker 1: like how much are you making? Should be making more?

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Speaker 1: Wor right? How you do it right? I think I'm

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Speaker 1: the same way because it doesn't make sense to UM

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I need a baseline, right, Okay, so I

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Speaker 1: need someone to tell me, am I being screwed over?

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Speaker 1: Am I doing this right? Right? The value of having

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Speaker 1: someone who would just be open with you, UM, you

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Speaker 1: can't underestimate it. And it's been something that has helped

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Speaker 1: me and it's helps me negotiate and get hopefully the

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Speaker 1: most of what I can UM and just learning from

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Speaker 1: other women in my life and having that thing of

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Speaker 1: like go back and negotiate your salary and all the

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Speaker 1: right uh. And that's something that Samantha and I have

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Speaker 1: been talking about a lot lately with some of our

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Speaker 1: other coworkers and friends. So this has been on our

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Speaker 1: mind and it is also on the mind of Samantha Barry,

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Speaker 1: who is editor in chief of Glamour Money Matters, who

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Speaker 1: is starting her own podcast called She Makes Money Moves UM,

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Speaker 1: which we want to highlights. We think that some of

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Speaker 1: your listeners would really appreciate it, and also if you're

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Speaker 1: someone who has struggled with having these open conversations with money. UM,

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Speaker 1: that's something that she looks into how much we make,

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Speaker 1: how much we spend, how we're investing, and how it

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Speaker 1: can impact so many other aspects of our lives. And

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Speaker 1: we've all seen that we've had we've been that friend,

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Speaker 1: or we've had that friend who can't do stuff right

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Speaker 1: because they don't have the funds right and like I said,

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Speaker 1: just living paycheck to paycheck and then it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: because I'm really bad with it, but because it all

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Speaker 1: goes to bills very quickly. So yeah, yeah, And in

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Speaker 1: this podcast, UM, Samantha Barry another Samantha, She shares her

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Speaker 1: her own experiences and her own journey and gives advice

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Speaker 1: from experts, and the hope being that women who listened

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Speaker 1: to it can can learn from that and build on that.

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Speaker 1: And UM, that's something that we're very big onto right

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Speaker 1: as well as the fact that we know that women

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Speaker 1: make less than men, and so how do you balance

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Speaker 1: that skill a little bit? Yeah, and hopefully I mean

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Speaker 1: if we share, if we more and more share. Wait wait,

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Speaker 1: you're making how much? Then we can push We can

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Speaker 1: push the scale slowly, but surely you can do this.

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Speaker 1: We can do this. So if that's something you're interested in,

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Speaker 1: go check out the podcast. The new podcast She Makes

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Speaker 1: Money Moves wherever you hear your podcast. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed this classic episode about salaries and

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Speaker 1: secrets Salaries. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from

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Speaker 1: how stupp Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristin and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking to

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Speaker 1: two super brad ladies, Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, who

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Speaker 1: we met face to face at south By Southwest Interactive

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Speaker 1: and it was kids mitt Oh my god, it was amazing,

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Speaker 1: saying so, here's the backstory. Really briefly, Gina emailed us,

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Speaker 1: and uh, thank god she did. I'm so excited to

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Speaker 1: talk to them and I was so excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to them at south By Southwest. But the thing is

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Speaker 1: when Kristen and I were at south By, like, there's

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Speaker 1: so much going on, you're running to a million places.

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Speaker 1: We hosted our own live show and panel. There was

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Speaker 1: just a lot of stuff going on, and Gina was

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Speaker 1: kind enough, conscientious enough and efficient and type a enough

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Speaker 1: to email me again to make sure that we got

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Speaker 1: together and I'm so happy she did. Yeah. And since

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Speaker 1: we haven't even mentioned what this Gina Ashley Dynamic duo

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Speaker 1: do UM. They have started a woman owned full service

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Speaker 1: recruiting firm called recruit Her, which is committed to connecting

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Speaker 1: tech companies with diverse talent. And in our conversation, we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into all of the reasons why this

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Speaker 1: service is very necessary and important not only for company's

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Speaker 1: bottom lines, but also for the technology and services that

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Speaker 1: trickled down to end users like you and me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And in talking with them for this interview and when

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Speaker 1: we met them a little while back in person, it

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Speaker 1: was so fascinating and inspiring to hear they're sort of

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Speaker 1: boots on the ground perspective about diversity in tech, both

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Speaker 1: diversity of gender and diversity of ethnicity. They're really passionate

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Speaker 1: about improving the diversity of teams in tech because honestly,

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Speaker 1: diverse teams outperform those who just look like one group,

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Speaker 1: And beyond the inspiration of their mission, it's also just

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Speaker 1: inspiring to hear their own story of how they found

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Speaker 1: each other and what brought them to building this startup

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Speaker 1: which is taken off in a really short amount of time.

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Speaker 1: And so what we're going to talk about with Gina

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Speaker 1: and Ashley today includes, yes, why diversity is important and

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Speaker 1: go beyond the buzzwordy, almost tokenism aspects of diversity, right

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Speaker 1: but also too, we're going to drill down into some

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Speaker 1: really personal issues when it comes to women and our

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Speaker 1: jobs and our paychecks and transitioning into better jobs where

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Speaker 1: we're treated better. And also this issue of salary transparency

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Speaker 1: which is blowing up right now among tech companies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean speaking of buzzwordy pay transparency is a huge

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Speaker 1: issue right now. People in all sorts of industries are

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Speaker 1: talking about it, and for the most part, largely it

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Speaker 1: is how did as a positive step towards eliminating the

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Speaker 1: gender wage gap, toward making sure that people no mat

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Speaker 1: or their gender, race, background, whatever, are paid equitably for

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Speaker 1: the jobs that they're doing. And it's also free advertising

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Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, it's not entirely free, because

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Speaker 1: you have to pay probably some people more in their

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Speaker 1: day to day jobs, but it's free advertising for recruiting

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Speaker 1: and then also retaining solid talent um. And you're now

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Speaker 1: seeing more and more companies like Amazon and Salesforce and

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Speaker 1: most recently Facebook analyzing gender wage gaps within the company

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Speaker 1: and rectifying that. And so it's exciting to know that

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Speaker 1: this is something that um, these leading tech companies are

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Speaker 1: taking really seriously. And this is a conversation that is

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Speaker 1: spreading because Caroline, I think it's really time for us

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Speaker 1: to stop feeling so secretive about our salaries. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And and that is something that both Ashle and Gina

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Speaker 1: are passionate about, and it's something that the conversation is

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Speaker 1: only going to get louder as companies of all stripes

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Speaker 1: diversify more and more, as more people of different backgrounds

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Speaker 1: are brought into companies, salary discrepancies are going to be

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Speaker 1: an issue, and pay transparency is a huge way to

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Speaker 1: combat that. And it's also an important step in normalizing

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Speaker 1: this thing that we've been conditioned to consider impolite of

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Speaker 1: talking about what you make, finding out how much your

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Speaker 1: coworkers make and comparing notes a little bit, because the

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, when it comes to especially

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Speaker 1: women and even more so women of color, our we

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Speaker 1: will never know how much we aren't being paid if

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Speaker 1: we don't know how much people around us are making.

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Speaker 1: So should we talk now to Gina and Ashley? Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. So, Gina and Ashley, before we get

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Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty about salary and money talk and

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Speaker 1: all that fun and sometimes not so fun stuff, can

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Speaker 1: you tell our audience a little bit about what both

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Speaker 1: of you do and also how recruit Her came to

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Speaker 1: be and how it works. Yeah. Um, this is Gina.

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Speaker 1: I co founded recruit Her with Ashley last August so

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Speaker 1: UM late summer. I had, prior to that UM worked

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Speaker 1: in a startup in the tech industry here in Austin,

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Speaker 1: and before that I was directing the Women's Center at

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Speaker 1: Harvard so UM. I was looking for something new to

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Speaker 1: do professionally, as kind of in a career transition, and

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Speaker 1: I felt like, you know, what I really want to

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Speaker 1: do is to combine these passions of fine and to

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Speaker 1: draw on my background in gender and women's studies and

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Speaker 1: of our scene inclusion in work UM from within higher

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Speaker 1: ed and bring that expertise to the tech industry, which

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Speaker 1: is having a lot of challenges and great opportunities around

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Speaker 1: UM diversity and inclusion issues. So I was looking at

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Speaker 1: that mostly from a consulting perspective, and I had lots

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Speaker 1: and lots of people asked me if I was also

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Speaker 1: going to provide candidates for companies that I would consult for,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, well, I don't know anything about that,

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Speaker 1: so I should probably find someone who does. And that

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Speaker 1: was how I met Actually, yeah, it was really great timing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm really lucky that I saw Gina's

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Speaker 1: post when I did, so UM. We're both based here

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Speaker 1: in Austin. This is actually Doyle by the way, so

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Speaker 1: I'm obviously the other co founder of recruiter UM. We're

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Speaker 1: both based here in Austin. We didn't know each other,

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Speaker 1: but there's this really wonderful Facebook group called Austin Digital Jobs.

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Speaker 1: It has like, you know, close to twenty people in

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Speaker 1: it now, and Gina was one of those people who posted, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to talk to a recruiter about UM, like

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Speaker 1: how you consider getting more diverse applicants into the pool

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Speaker 1: if you have thirty minutes or something to talk with me,

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Speaker 1: and I was the only person who answer. So um,

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Speaker 1: that's how we've met and really hit it off on

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Speaker 1: that first call. Although maybe we can talk later about

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Speaker 1: how awkward it was around the topic of salary negotiations. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: fighting for your mar your worth um. In any case,

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Speaker 1: my background before launching recruiter was primarily in technical recruitment

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Speaker 1: UM in larger corporations. So I've been working in tech

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Speaker 1: for about eight years doing technical recruiting and sourcing and

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Speaker 1: have also been an a JARM manager for those same companies.

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Speaker 1: And so um, really the bulk of my work has

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Speaker 1: always been focused around recruiting, retention, compensation and benefits. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: we launched recruit Her in August of last year and

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Speaker 1: uh here we are now built this thing. It's very exciting. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So UM, what we can tell you about what recruit

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Speaker 1: Heter does is where a diversity recruitment firm or focused

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Speaker 1: on the tech industry. What that means is we provide

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Speaker 1: a more diverse set of candidates to our client companies

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Speaker 1: for their open roles then they're typically going to get

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Speaker 1: if they work with a traditional recruiting agency. UM. We

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Speaker 1: also are committed to only working for client companies who

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Speaker 1: we believe are providing an inclusive environment for our candidates.

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Speaker 1: So we pre screen all of the companies that we

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Speaker 1: ultimately decide to recruit for to see what life is like.

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Speaker 1: Do they have a salary transparency at their company? Um,

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Speaker 1: and make sure it's a place that we feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: sending someone where they can grow and thrive. UM and

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Speaker 1: make sure that they don't just have an experience where

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Speaker 1: they get spent right back out. So we're really hyper

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Speaker 1: conscious about the ecosystem of issues that are contributing to

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Speaker 1: the current lack of diversity in tech and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we conduct our business in a way

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Speaker 1: that is long term going to continue to help fix

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Speaker 1: the problem. Well, I mean, that's an amazing effort and

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Speaker 1: an amazing goal. But what do you say to those

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Speaker 1: people out there who just claim that efforts like this

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Speaker 1: around diversity are just tokenism and we don't really need

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Speaker 1: to do this. We're just hiring the best people for

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Speaker 1: the job, whoever that is. Uh Man, you know, we

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Speaker 1: would be super duper rich at this point if we

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Speaker 1: got a dollar every time someone said that legitimate to

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Speaker 1: us on the phone. So I hear it right, Like

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Speaker 1: I get the eyebrow raise. Uh. And the skepticism, especially

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Speaker 1: this year, which it's like pro con right, finally, finally, uh,

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Speaker 1: wage in equity, diversity in tech or the lack thereof

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Speaker 1: is a part of the national conversation. And that's something

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Speaker 1: that we are super excited about because it's not a

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Speaker 1: new problem, certainly. Um, it's just finally one that like

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Speaker 1: you know, you can talk to someone at Starbucks about

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Speaker 1: because people now know this is a thing that happens

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Speaker 1: and that lots of people are working to try to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to address. UM. The con to that

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Speaker 1: is like sometimes you get the eye roll right, like

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Speaker 1: great diversity taught me something I don't know, Like, I

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Speaker 1: just hire the best person for the job. I don't

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Speaker 1: care what you look like. I just want to see

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Speaker 1: your resume. Unfortunately, that sort of sentiment doesn't work in

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Speaker 1: the actual real world. UM. And we know because of

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Speaker 1: you know, years and years and years of research and

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Speaker 1: practical experience, that we're not able to look at a

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Speaker 1: resume or sit in an interview room with a candidate

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Speaker 1: and make completely unbiased judgments about that person. That's just

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Speaker 1: not the way our brains work, so UM, we believe

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Speaker 1: there are tons and tons of strategies that you can

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Speaker 1: employ as an employer, as a person who's interviewing another

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Speaker 1: person for your company. UM, even if you are just

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Speaker 1: the first person reviewing resumes for um, you know new

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Speaker 1: applicants rolling in, there are lots of ways that you

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Speaker 1: can sort of mitigate that bias that naturally exists for

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Speaker 1: all of us as humans and make sure that you're

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Speaker 1: hiring processes are set up to really truly hire the

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Speaker 1: best person for the job. And frankly, if you only

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Speaker 1: rely on the same like hiring practices you've always used

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Speaker 1: forever and you have a homogeneous team already, you cannot

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Speaker 1: expect that the applicant pool you're driving in without trying

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Speaker 1: is going to change. Like if your existing team as

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Speaker 1: homogeneous and you rely on employee referrals to get new

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Speaker 1: candidates coming in and you don't ever like actively engage

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Speaker 1: with communities outside of the ones you're part of, you're

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Speaker 1: pretty much always going to be hiring the same people

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Speaker 1: and thinking that those are the best people for the

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Speaker 1: job because you haven't looked beyond your you know, you're

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Speaker 1: the limited bubble, which is sometimes a really nice bubble,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of talent outside of that, outside

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Speaker 1: of that realm. So one thing I've also been noticing

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Speaker 1: in terms of diversity issues within tech is a we've

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Speaker 1: started talking beyond just gender gaps but also looking at

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Speaker 1: um ethnicity, to which I think is a really great

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Speaker 1: step forward. But on the flip side of that too,

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Speaker 1: I think that we are or I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm just in my own Twitter bubble, but we're seeing

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Speaker 1: not only identification of the problem, but also why diversity

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Speaker 1: is a solution in text I was wondering if you

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Speaker 1: could just kind of quickly talk about why this is

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Speaker 1: a benefit for the bottom line. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: there are lots and lots of research out there making

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Speaker 1: effectively the business case for diversity. Um. But there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of examples that we talk about a lot. So UM.

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Speaker 1: If you'll remember when Apple rolled out one of their

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Speaker 1: more recent iOS updates that included the Apple Health app. Um,

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Speaker 1: that app was native on your phone. If you had

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Speaker 1: an Apple phone, you had the app, and you could

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Speaker 1: use this to track your sleep, um, how much you

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Speaker 1: weigh your sodium intake, any medicines that you might have.

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Speaker 1: You could track pretty much any little detail that you

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Speaker 1: could dream up having to do with your body and biology.

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Speaker 1: But you couldn't track your period, which is something that

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Speaker 1: women you would know like, oh great a health app,

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Speaker 1: like I would love to use this. What's the most

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Speaker 1: fundamental thing I might want to track here? Right? And

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Speaker 1: it was not even a capability. So having a diverse

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Speaker 1: team developing your products in tech is really important simply

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Speaker 1: for connecting with your customer base. Right. That's fifty of

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Speaker 1: their customer base that they just completely let down through

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Speaker 1: that feature. Um. So since then they have made the

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Speaker 1: update you can now track your period and Apple Health um.

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Speaker 1: And there's lots of other apps that also came out

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Speaker 1: to help women, you know, keep track of their fertility

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Speaker 1: as well. So it's a huge market. UM. I think

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Speaker 1: the notion that there are heterogeneous customers and markets out

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Speaker 1: there that you can't tap unless you have a team

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Speaker 1: that reflects those experiences and perspectives is really strong, right,

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Speaker 1: relates to the bottom line. UM. There's a new company

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Speaker 1: out there right now called Bevil that is just crushing it. Um.

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Speaker 1: They have basically like shaving products for curly haired men

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Speaker 1: that don't tear up their face when they're actually shaving

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Speaker 1: because it's designed for that particular hair type and they're

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Speaker 1: in target. Now they're making so much money, and it's

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Speaker 1: just because nobody actually decided to pay attention to the

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Speaker 1: particular needs of this market before. So real, you know, diversity,

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Speaker 1: having a diverse team. I think plenty of us out

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Speaker 1: there just think it's the right thing to do. Right,

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Speaker 1: We're really uncomfortable with a very homogeneous looking tech industry,

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Speaker 1: given how tech is increasingly, you know, creeping into every

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Speaker 1: aspect of our lives, and soon every industry will be

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Speaker 1: the tech industry. Um. Also, it's relevant for where people

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Speaker 1: want to work. Diverse teams tend to have longer retention

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Speaker 1: of employees. People are happier working on diverse teams really,

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Speaker 1: And then the bottom line, right, like, when you have

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Speaker 1: teams that reflect your customer base, you're better able to

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Speaker 1: connect with their needs. You're better able to build products

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Speaker 1: that can really serve many many people's once in needs.

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Speaker 1: So so once we have that diversity piece in place,

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Speaker 1: then there's the question of you know, salary equity. Because

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Speaker 1: there was recently research that came out and I don't

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Speaker 1: remember exact source, but it found that in traditionally male

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Speaker 1: dominated fields, like say a tech company, When women come

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Speaker 1: into those jobs and uh it transitions from being male

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Speaker 1: dominated to more female dominated, the overall income drops, the

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Speaker 1: overall compensation drops. So yeah, this was a New York

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Speaker 1: Times article. Yeah, so let's talk about that, and how

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Speaker 1: how do you you know, kind of like make that bridge,

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Speaker 1: like get people in the door, but also maintain pay equity.

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Speaker 1: We will say obviously, for us, we think salite transparency

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Speaker 1: is a critical way to make sure that doesn't happen, right,

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Speaker 1: Because that way, no matter what the circumstances are around

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Speaker 1: the demographic makeup of your team, how large your team is,

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Speaker 1: how your team changes over time, if you have committed

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Speaker 1: to having more transparency around the way you compensate your

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Speaker 1: employees and how that compensation changes over time, you can

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Speaker 1: make sure that that doesn't happen. Right. Um, there's this

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Speaker 1: resistance for sure, I think from employers to dig into

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Speaker 1: this stuff. Well, we know, for example that Google and

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Speaker 1: Apple used to have this kind of secret you know,

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Speaker 1: non compete where they wouldn't poach one another's employees, and

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Speaker 1: partly that was to keep costs down. Right, So, in

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Speaker 1: a sense, there can be an antagonistic relationship between companies

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Speaker 1: and their employees because companies know the premium, particularly on

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Speaker 1: tech talent, which is our field, and so if those

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Speaker 1: employees learn their actual worth, companies are gonna have to

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Speaker 1: pay more. Well, I guess how does that apply? Do

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Speaker 1: you think in a more general sense beyond just Google

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Speaker 1: not wanting to have an adversarial relationship, how do you

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Speaker 1: think that applies more to the gender aspect, especially when

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Speaker 1: it comes to whether it's like official policy in the

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Speaker 1: company or just unofficial etiquette about not speaking about your salary. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I think some of this plays into the idea that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, when are supposed to be polite, right, We're

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Speaker 1: taught early on that you don't you don't want to

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Speaker 1: enter into conversations that are going to make other people uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's the whole like don't talk about religion

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Speaker 1: or politics at the dinner table. Salary is part of that, right,

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Speaker 1: It's sort of ingrained in us that this is not

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Speaker 1: something that you should be talking about with your peers

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Speaker 1: or with your co workers. And frankly, you see lots

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Speaker 1: of examples of companies going so far as to say

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Speaker 1: you cannot talk about it um whether or not that's legal.

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Speaker 1: It's a whole different ball game. Frankly, in most cases,

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Speaker 1: that's not something they can enforce, and it's certainly not

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Speaker 1: something that they're supposed to tell you. But if you

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Speaker 1: pull a thousand people about what their onboarding experience was

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Speaker 1: like in a new job, a good portion of those

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Speaker 1: will tell you that hr you know, reinfor worse with

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Speaker 1: them at some point not to share details about their

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Speaker 1: offer or not to talk about salary with their peers. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: that is the overwhelming sentiment right when you talk to

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Speaker 1: people about conversation. It's not something that like we're sharing

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Speaker 1: over the over a coffee together, or that we're like

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Speaker 1: hanging out at the park with our kids and talking

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Speaker 1: about how much we made last week. It's just not

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Speaker 1: a conversation that's comfortable for a lot of people, and

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Speaker 1: unfortunately for underrepresented groups UM women included, we really suffer

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Speaker 1: more because we don't have access to that data and

430
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: because we are not comfortable talking about it as a

431
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: as a whole. Um. Part of why I do this

432
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: work at Recruiter, and frankly, part of why my initial

433
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: meeting with Gina was really awkward is that this happened

434
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: to me, and you know, I'm someone who who comes

435
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: from an HR and recruiting background. You would think, of

436
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: all women, you know, doing this kind of work, that

437
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: I would have better access to the information, that I

438
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: would know a lot about my market worth, and that

439
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: I would never find myself in a situation where I

440
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: was vastly underpaid. But that's totally what happened to me.

441
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: And it was such a such a strange experience, and

442
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: it made me so angry that it really pushed me

443
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: to start talking about this more with my peers, with

444
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: women I knew, with my family um and I found

445
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: that over time, no matter how many times I have

446
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: this conversation with other women, that the overwhelming response is

447
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: the same. People are just really resistant to talk about salary.

448
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: They feel like they're going to be punished if they do.

449
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: They feel like it's rude, the conversations uncomfortable, and so

450
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: we sort of avoid it. And I think that's a

451
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: big part of why often we go for a five

452
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: or ten or twenty years vastly underpaid, because there's not

453
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: a single centralized location to just see the comp of

454
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: your peers right in most cases, unless you're working for

455
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: the government or a really awesome company that has salary transparency,

456
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: and more and more of those are doing that. Um

457
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: Buffer is a great example. You can go to the

458
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: Buffer website right now and look at their salary calculator

459
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: and plug in what kind of job you want to

460
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: do and where you live, and they can give you

461
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: an estimate on what you would make their All of

462
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: their employees salaries are publicly available. Um At Recruiter remade

463
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: that commitment that when we started to hire employees that

464
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: we would be transparent about our salaries and about their salaries.

465
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: And that's part of the deal. If you join us,

466
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 1: you have to be comfortable with other people knowing how

467
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: much you make. UM so part of you know, diversity

468
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: and tech being uh you know, a national conversation is

469
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: great because within this movement you've also seen this really

470
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: great leadership by moment of color and tech who have

471
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: pushed toward greater salary transparency. Probably the most common or

472
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: the most well known example is from a couple of

473
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: years ago when Erica Baker, who was at Google, uh

474
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: you know, started pushing on this, realized there wasn't a

475
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: lot of information about the salaries of her peers and

476
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: started a spreadsheet that was being passed around people were

477
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: anonymously entering their compensation. Google got wind of this, obviously

478
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: they were very piste UM and ultimately she left people

479
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: is now at slack right UM and UH, which is

480
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: a company we really love and I feel like it's

481
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: doing a lot of great work around UM some of

482
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: these issues. But in any case, Uh, it was a

483
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: very public punishment, right, Like you got to kind of

484
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: watch that play out. But thankfully she was brave enough

485
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: to start that conversation and start sharing that document because

486
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: it really helped reinforce UH, this conversation around salary gaps,

487
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: why certain people were paid more or less than their peers.

488
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: It pushed other people to start similar salary trains. UM

489
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: My little baby one that's been passed around for a

490
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: couple of months is specifically around HR and recruiting data.

491
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: I've been trying so hard to get more anonymous information

492
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: on the way recruiters and HR managers are paid and

493
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: people opts professionals, because again, you would think that someone

494
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: embedded in this work, like you know, creating compensation and plans,

495
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: having access to salary information about all the employees and

496
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: a company would know more about their own camp. But

497
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: even you know, within our very insular part of tech um,

498
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: there's still that, uh, that idea that you shouldn't be

499
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: talking about this stuff, right like that somehow this is

500
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: bad that you're asking, or you should just be happy

501
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: you have a job, or just trust us that we're

502
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: going to treat you fairly. We've seen frankly that that

503
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: does not work. It's not a great method to protect yourself.

504
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: And you know, it's really sort of a sad irony

505
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: that women in particular end up sharing information about their

506
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: salary with the people that it's least helpful to share

507
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: it with, which is going to be a recruiter or

508
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: a hiring manager, prior to receiving a job offer. So

509
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: that actually, because of the gender wage gap, ends up

510
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: harming women because it sets in the mind of the

511
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: potential employer a ballpark for what they're going to pay you.

512
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: But if you've been historically underpaid, then you're not going

513
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: to be receiving a salary that you're actually worth because

514
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: you've revealed what that past pay history was before saying well,

515
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: what do you think that I'm worth doing this job?

516
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: So it's so frustrating and sad to me, because we

517
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: really you know, deserve it and owe to one another

518
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: to share what our salaries are and to advocate with

519
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: one another around these issues. But instead we seem to

520
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: only be saying it to the people who actually don't

521
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: have our best interest in mind. I was just going

522
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: to say to you know, often HR managers, corporate recruit ers,

523
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: most big companies will already have policies in place around

524
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: how much you know, based on percentage of a person's

525
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: current salary they can boost for this new offer. Right.

526
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: So again, if you share this information about your current

527
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: comp with a company that you'd really like to work for,

528
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: and you've been historically underpaid, whether you know it or

529
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: you don't know it, you're already setting yourself up to

530
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: stay underpaid if their rule is that they only, do

531
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, a ten percent increased from your current camp

532
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: for this offer. And I see all the time corporate HR,

533
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: corporate recruiting professionals, you know, coming back to candidates with

534
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: this answer like, Hey, you know, we're not trying to

535
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: treat you unfairly, but these are the rules. I would

536
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: just strongly reject that. It's one of the things that

537
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: we teach candidates and coach candidates on often like how

538
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: to have these conversations without being seen as difficult, or

539
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, like hiding information. But really, this is a

540
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: place where you have so much power in the process.

541
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: Um giving up those numbers just really set you back again.

542
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: Even if you don't know if you're underpaid or how

543
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: undervaud you might be. If you have an ankling, you

544
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: just pass that power right across the table as soon

545
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: as you tell them what you're making right now. They

546
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: do not need that information in order to make you

547
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: a competitive offer. So you're suggesting that the power that

548
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: you're referring to is your current compensation and that you

549
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: should not disclose that to a potential employee employer. Yes,

550
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: I would say absolutely not. If you can, in any

551
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: capacity avoid giving that information over, you will be in

552
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: a much better position to negotiate, and frankly, it's probably

553
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: the easiest way to keep yourself from continuing to be

554
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: underpaid if you are already you know part of that

555
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: wage gap. I mean, if you look at Ashley's experience,

556
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: within one job move, she more than doubled her salary.

557
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: So if she had revealed how much that she was

558
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: making prior, it would be a much harder pill for

559
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: that new employer to swallow that they were going to

560
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: more than double her prior salary, right man, But I

561
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: mean speaking of hard pills to swallow, you know, we

562
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: you've already mentioned how it's almost culturally ingrained in women

563
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: to be polite, be that model employee, not rock the boat,

564
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: not make waves. I mean, my palm started sweating when

565
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: you were like, don't give up that information, because I

566
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: know what it feels like to be sitting in front

567
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: of that online job application and seeing that curse or

568
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: blinking in the little field where you're supposed to enter

569
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: your current salary. And so what advice do you You know,

570
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to steal your your trade secrets that

571
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: you guys do recruit her. But but what is some

572
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: maybe advice or perspective that you can offer our listeners

573
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to circumventing not only that other potentially

574
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: damaging aspects of the job interview or job application process.

575
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: I think it all comes down to how you frame

576
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: the conversation, right, Like, how you go into these often

577
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable for us conversations around camp um. We can

578
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: talk about like literally how do you move the cursor

579
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: past the what's your current comp blank if it forces

580
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: you to enter a number. But first, I would say

581
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: the best thing that you can do for yourself if

582
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: you are starting to interview is to make sure that

583
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: you are prepared before you ever get on the phone

584
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: with a recruiter UM, with information about what market rates

585
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 1: look like for the position you're interviewing for UM. Do

586
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: as much research as you can around current camp, for

587
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: your peers, for what folks make another industries if you're

588
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 1: transitioning from one to another. UM. We're really lucky that

589
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: the Internet exists UM fifty years ago, this would be

590
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: very difficult to do UM. But again thanks to people

591
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: like Erica Baker UM and many who have come after

592
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: her sort of doing the same push. There are lots

593
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: of resources floating around where we're all sharing this information

594
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: right and trying to get more visibility not just for

595
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: ourselves but for our industries as a whole, around like

596
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: what market rate really looks like. There's also quite a

597
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: few services that have popped up in the last couple

598
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: of years. Comparatively is UM. I think the newest one

599
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: they just got something like six million dollars and BC

600
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: funding UM and they're essentially building out this huge database,

601
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: not onlike a glass door. UM, to look specifically at compensation,

602
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: what if the full package might look like for someone

603
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: if they're going into interview, they're asking for anonymous feedback

604
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: on this stuff so that their sample sizes will grow. UM.

605
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: Pay scale is another one. Again, you can look at

606
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: companies who have already publicly shared salary information to get

607
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: a feel for what people are making near you. Also

608
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: having conversations with recruiters UM about conversation in general. A

609
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: lot of times, even if you're not super interested in the

610
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: the particular role, you should take those intro calls when

611
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: they want to talk to you about them and just

612
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: get competitive intelligence on you know, what companies are looking for,

613
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: what the salary ranges for a particular role. Being armed

614
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: with that stuff before you go into the conversation with

615
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: a recruiter about a position you really want, it's going

616
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: to help you so much to be able to give,

617
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: you know, data based totally logical, like numbers oriented reasons

618
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: why you want to be paid a specific amount of

619
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: money or within a specific range for this work that

620
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: you're going to be providing to them. UM, it's so

621
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: much easier to go and armed with that, there is

622
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: great information available about what works, particularly for women, in

623
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: terms of how to approach a negotiation, especially a salary negotiation,

624
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: in a way that's going to help avoid or minimize

625
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: backlash for negotiating in the first place. Right, as a society,

626
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: we are just much more comfortable with men advocating on

627
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: their own behalf than we are with women doing the same.

628
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: Women are excellent negotiators. They can do a wonderful job

629
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: as long as they're advocating for someone else most of

630
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: the time, right, and partly this is because, you know,

631
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: seriotypically we view women as collaborative and caretaking, and so

632
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: it makes sense for us when we think about a

633
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: woman trying to advocate for someone else, negotiating as someone

634
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: else's behalf, But when it's negotiating on her own behalf,

635
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: then that's kind of off putting to us. So, um,

636
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: there's a researcher out of Harvard, her name is Hannah

637
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: Riley Bowles who's done a lot of great work on this.

638
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: She talks about taking a relational approach to the conversation. So,

639
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: just like Ashley was saying, come in very prepared, know

640
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: your numbers, make sure you know you know what the

641
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: salary range is for the job in the specific area.

642
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: If you're trying to negotiate a salary in San Francisco,

643
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: those numbers are going to look really different than they

644
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: would if you're trying to get a job in Austin

645
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: for the same type of role. Um and talk in

646
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 1: terms of we right already position yourselves as though you're

647
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: on the same side of the table with a person

648
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: that you're negotiating with, so you can essentially say, you know, I,

649
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, can't wait to come on and provide this

650
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: particular set of skills and capabilities for your team. You know,

651
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: we're gonna do really well together. I you know, I

652
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: expect to basically put myself you know, hard to work

653
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: for your company, and at this rate, which I understand

654
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: to be, you know, the going rate, I'm going to

655
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: be really happy coming on and we're going to get

656
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: started on the right foot, et cetera. I wish you

657
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: had been in the room with me, both of you

658
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: and I had my first job offer because I didn't negotiate,

659
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: and I know I'm still paying for it, and uh,

660
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: it's hard not to kick myself anytime I think about it.

661
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. I spent so many or

662
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: is killing it frankly, like, I'm not shy. I'm really

663
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: good at my job. But I was killing it and

664
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: I was the lowest paid person doing that particular type

665
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: of work and for a company that I loved, which

666
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: is a wonderful, wonderful company with lots of great people

667
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: in it UM, And I just I didn't know. I

668
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 1: wasn't armed with that information, so I had no idea.

669
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: And then once I found out, you know, it's just

670
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: like it guts you. It's really difficult to continue to

671
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: kill it um knowing that you're being compensated at a

672
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: rate you know less than half of your peers, who

673
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: may or may not be killing it themselves. So actually

674
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: has told me this story a number of times, and

675
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: I think it's great to highlight that one of her

676
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: male co workers came to her to share with her

677
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: the fact that she was grossly underpaid. So this is

678
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: such a great area for ally ship, right, Like when

679
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: we talk about the importance of sharing with one another,

680
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 1: it's not just women sharing with other women, but frankly,

681
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: are male coworkers and friends can talk to us about

682
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: what they are making and that makes a huge difference.

683
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: Well do you think that so called radical transparency of wages,

684
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: of benefits of skills, the skills that you bring to

685
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: the table, will that help disrupt any toxic office culture?

686
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: Will it help in the gender wage gap as so

687
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: many people are hoping. I think it certainly has the

688
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,919
Speaker 1: potential to. I mean, look at Salesforce, right, Um, they're

689
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: an excellent example. Someone at some point the last couple

690
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: of years came to them and said, hey, we think

691
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: you have some issues with salary on your team, and

692
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 1: you know their topic. Sex said, no, absolutely not. We

693
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: We're a wonderful company. We care deeply for our employees.

694
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: We're doing all this great work for them. We have

695
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: all these great people who stay like there's no way.

696
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: And then they looked at the numbers anyway, and were

697
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: horrified that, yes, in fact, there was huge disparity when

698
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: they looked across their salary just and their existing employees camp.

699
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: And then they, you know, put three and a half

700
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: million dollars into fixing it. And then they publicly talked

701
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: about how, you know, how frustrating that process was to

702
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: believe so strongly that you were doing the right thing.

703
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: And then of course you were taking care of your folks.

704
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: And then when you dig into the numbers to find that,

705
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, in many cases they weren't. Um. Now they're

706
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: a great example because a they looked at the numbers,

707
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 1: be they did something about it. And see I think

708
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: most importantly they talked about it, right, because that's that's

709
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: part of the deal. If we don't talk about this stuff,

710
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: if we can't get more transparency around the data that

711
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: will allow us to make better decisions, it's never going

712
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: to go away. And look, it's the same thing with

713
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: the diversity and tech deal. If Tracy had never started

714
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: collecting data around how many people worked in tech, how

715
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: many women were on the team at pinterest, UM, there

716
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: would never have been that like lightful moment right about,

717
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: oh god, this is worse than we thought. And then

718
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: that pushed other companies to share, and it's continuing to

719
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: push the conversation. UM. So yes, I think absolutely having

720
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: more salary transparency and there being a pressure for more

721
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: companies to dig into this stuff has the capacity to

722
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: really truly change the experience of people working in tech

723
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: and other industries. So in the spirit of transparency, I'm

724
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: going to share a little bit of a related issue

725
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: that I have personally with this, and I've never known

726
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: what to do about it. Um So, like I said,

727
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: I never negotiated when I came onto my my first

728
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: professional job, and I feel like I have been having

729
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: to make up for that. But the last time I

730
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: had to negotiate for my salary, I walked in knowing

731
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: for a fact that I was paid less than my

732
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: male coworkers doing arguably identical work. And when I brought

733
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: that up to the HR manager who I was negotiating with,

734
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: and said, listen, I know that I need an extra

735
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: bump because you've got to even this out. And she said,

736
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how you know that information, but it

737
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: is not applicable to this conversation, and became very hostile

738
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: in her tone toward me, as if knowing me knowing

739
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: that and bringing it up was something that I shouldn't have.

740
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: And I know I'm still not being paid equally. I

741
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: know I make less for a fact, I know I

742
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: make less than my male co workers who are at

743
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: the exact same level, who have the exact same title.

744
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: So what is someone in my position who's not at

745
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: a salesforce who doesn't have like a company initiative for

746
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: sales for salary transparency. What do all of the women

747
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: listening to this in my position do? Christen? That is heartbringing.

748
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry you're dealing with that, and um, it's

749
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: so frustrating, and I know that plenty of other people

750
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: have been in your same position. Um, I think it

751
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: helps to just sort of help. It helps to remind

752
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: and teach people that while there are amazing folks who

753
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: work in HR and who want to help the people

754
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: on their team and advocate for them as much as possible,

755
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: there are also just at the end of the day,

756
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: things that they cannot help you with or their hands

757
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: are tied because ultimately h R works for the company,

758
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: right Like h R Yes, often is wonderful and wants

759
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: to help you, but at the end of the day,

760
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: their role is to protect the business. So there is

761
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: there are going to be situations, UM, like that's really

762
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: unfortunate one that you find yourself in where you go

763
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: to the person who you've been told is supposed to

764
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: help you in this situation and they're kind of telling you,

765
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to be hearing this, you know, like,

766
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: this isn't something that we want to address well. And

767
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: the funny thing was, at the end of the whole process,

768
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: because we did go back and forth on some things,

769
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: she emailed me with like the final terms and all

770
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: of that and noted, you know, you are a tough negotiator,

771
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: and I, oh, wow, I just didn't know what what

772
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: to think about it, And honestly, I've kind of just

773
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: put it in the back of my head ever since,

774
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: because you know, what does someone in this position do? Now?

775
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: Do you walk into your boss's office and say, hey,

776
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: I want I want to know you know how much

777
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: more you owe me, like, because you know that's not

778
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: probably not to work. Yeah, And this is so tricky,

779
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: I think to like really speaks to how difficult these

780
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: problems are once they surface, like deciding how you're going

781
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: to move forward. Again, I had very similar experience to you.

782
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: I was working for a company I loved and then

783
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, got pulled aside to find out that I

784
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: was not just underpaid, but like really really really underpaid,

785
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: like more than half um and then to have to

786
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: decide how to move forward. I think in my case, um,

787
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: I recognized my privilege and that I could take some

788
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: time start interviewing at other places. Like now that I

789
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: was armed with this information on my real market worth, right,

790
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: I get start digging in with other people and get

791
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: that validated. I could do more research. And you know,

792
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: everyone knows that when you change jobs, when you're able

793
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: to negotiate for a new salary at a new company,

794
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: usually that's your best bet to get the most money.

795
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: You're generally going to get way more money when you're

796
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: negotiating for an offer at a new company. Then you

797
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: will be able to internally at your at your company.

798
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: And some of that is based on what we talked

799
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: about before, Like a lot of corporations will already have

800
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: rules in place around what percentage of your current comp

801
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: they can increase um in some cases. Unfortunately, also there

802
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: are compensation buckets, so like let's say your manager has

803
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: five direct reports, they may only have X amount of

804
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: dollars to divvy up between those five direct reports and

805
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 1: a given quarter or a given year. And so even

806
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: if you're doing phenomenally and your thirty dollars underpaid, your

807
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: manager may feel obligated to still split that bucket in

808
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: a way that is not fair to you, but they

809
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: believe it's fair to those five people, right, so UM,

810
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: there are all these intricacies that you have to take

811
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: into consideration when you look at what possibly could happen

812
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: if you push back again, right, if you go back

813
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: past the HR conversation that was already so scary and

814
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: terrible to have, UM, and really demand that you're paid

815
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: market rate and like escalate this issue because you could

816
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: totally be punished even though you shouldn't be. And the

817
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: law says that your employer cannot punish you for you

818
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: know that there cannot be retaliation, that you can't lose

819
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: your job because you push back about salary. We all

820
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: know that that's not realistic in many cases, right UM.

821
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: And frankly, not everyone can afford to go against the

822
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: man UM, file an e o C complaint or get

823
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: an employment attorney to file a lawsuit for you about

824
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: your wrongful termination UM, and then wait however many months

825
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: or years it takes to get some sort of resolution

826
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: on that, right. Some people don't have the luxury to

827
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: sit out for that many months or years UM. And

828
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: so it really comes down to like what your risk tolerances, UM,

829
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: What what is best for you right now? UM? When

830
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: you look at your budget, when you look at the

831
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: amount of time you have to maybe be out of

832
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: the job of this thing goes self. UM, and it sucks.

833
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 1: It's totally not fair to you, um that you even

834
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: have to consider these factors. But you know, the truth

835
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: for many women, many people in general in this country,

836
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: is that they live paycheck to paycheck, or they have

837
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: family members that they care for who are dependent on

838
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,959
Speaker 1: their income, and if they have conversations or do things

839
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: that might jeopardize the stability of that income, um, there's

840
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: some really real consequences they have to consider. We don't

841
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: all have a luxury of being able to storm in

842
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: and say, like, this is super terrible, what you're doing

843
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: is not right. I've already asked, you know, in the

844
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: way that I you know, I've already asked politely if

845
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: that's what you do, and frankly, you're still screwed me.

846
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: Like that's the conversation we want to have. But many

847
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: of us are just not in a position to be

848
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: able to do that, and so unfortunately, think in a

849
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: lot of these cases, getting that information that you're now

850
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: armed with, building it up right, supporting it with even

851
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: more documentation and information about your market worth, and starting

852
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: to research employers who have more inclusive practices and you

853
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: are gonna be a better fit for you over time

854
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: and really value you and support you and pay you

855
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: what you're worth. That might be your happy ending. But

856
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: I know that that's not the simple answer for everyone. Yeah.

857
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: I mean, the you know, sort of time tested way

858
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: that many people approach this problem is they just go

859
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: out and get another offer, right, and then bring it

860
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: to their current employer and say, hey, I have this

861
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: really appealing offer at this over the company. Can you

862
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: match it? Uh? And, like we talked about before, for

863
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: women who negotiate, we always have to keep in mind

864
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: that there is this backlash about women negotiating on their

865
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: own behalf. So if you take this approach and you

866
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: do go out and interview elsewhere and get a really

867
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: great competitive offer, but you like your job and you

868
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: would rather stay, then when you go present that to

869
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: your current boss, you have to present it in a

870
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: way that's basically like, Look, I was contacted by this

871
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: other company. I felt like I owed it to myself

872
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: to just you know, have the conversation with them. They

873
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: have made me this very competitive offer, but I love

874
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: being here. This is where I want to stay, you know,

875
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: I love the contribution and making on this team. I

876
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: don't want to have to go there, but given you

877
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: know the market rates, this is a very difficult offer

878
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: for me to turn down. Is there any way that

879
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: you could need it so that I could stick around

880
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: here and you know, continue making contributions here. This is

881
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: where I want to be if you can just match

882
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: the salary offer, So that might be another way to

883
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: kind of get around it if like, hey, just pay

884
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: us fairly isn't really getting you where you want to be?

885
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,439
Speaker 1: Do you think getting dinged for have and of course

886
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: getting dinged is like massively understanding the issue, But do

887
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: you mean getting dinged for having those negotiation conversations, like

888
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: having the kind of conversation that Kristen did? Uh? Do

889
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: you think the penalties are higher if you're a woman

890
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 1: of color? Can you imagine if if I'm a black

891
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: woman going in there, like I walk right into that

892
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: angry black woman's stereotypes? So absolutely right, you have to

893
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 1: deal with many more of those challenges when you have

894
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: multiple aspects of your identity that are marginalized. So I

895
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: do think it's really fascinating how a lot of this

896
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 1: so called radical transparency is taking off in Silicon Valley

897
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: and with digital companies that at the same time have

898
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: so many public issues with gender and diversity. So why

899
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: do you think that this is really where a lot

900
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: of this conversation is stemming from, Like why the tech industry.

901
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: I think the tech industry really prides itself on being

902
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: innovative and forward thinking, so there are much more comfortable

903
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: with and likely to try new things. And I think

904
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: that's one of the aspects that makes working on this

905
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: problem within this industry so exciting and gives me the

906
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: hopeful things because there's a lot to be depressed and

907
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: frustrated about every day. UM. But you know, you look

908
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: at Etsy or Netflix or any of these large and

909
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: more successful tech companies coming out and announcing fantastic benefits.

910
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: For example, Netflix will give you out to a year

911
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: of paid leave for parent parents right of any gender. UM.

912
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: That's fantastic in a country that is alone with Popua

913
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: New Guinea and not offering paid maternity leave. That's huge, right.

914
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: So those kind of UM offerings where the tech industry

915
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: is trying to push the edge, which is something that

916
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: basically everyone prides themselves on UM is really great for

917
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: us and at the same time within particular companies. You know,

918
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: it really start depends on the culture and what the

919
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: real message and commitment is from the top. Some of

920
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: those companies are just kind of trying to check the

921
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: box off, right, Like this isn't a problem they really

922
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 1: want to spend a lot of time on, but they

923
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: feel the pressure that they need to address it, so

924
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, yeah, you know, let's implement the Rooney

925
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: rule and make sure that we at least interview a

926
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: minority for every open role. Um check that box. You know,

927
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: we'll do some of these initiatives, but there's not a

928
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 1: core commitment to the addressing the problem, whereas at other

929
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: companies and in tech in particular, you know, our clients

930
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: were really proud of have a deep commitment to these

931
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: issues and are trying to do comprehensive reforms and initiatives

932
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: to make sure that they are creating a truly equitable

933
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: and inclusive place to work. And in both cases, the

934
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: policies are great, but the overall outcome is going to

935
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: be different depending on the specific company. So to circle

936
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: back to the prontal leave issue. For example, if it's

937
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: all great and wonderful, if you have you know, unlimited

938
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 1: vacation or up to your parntal leave. But what's the

939
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: kind of unspoken messaging, right, Like, is there a common

940
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: knowledge of the company that if you're a dad and

941
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: you take your full ten weeks of paid leaves, that

942
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: that's career suicide even though it's on the books, that's

943
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: the policy, right, So it it definitely always has kind

944
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: of a drill down like what's really going on in

945
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: the particular company where you are, regardless of what the

946
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: written policy might be. And I really like that, you know,

947
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: are all the flak that the millennials get, you know,

948
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 1: we're doing some really great stuff. I mean, I feel

949
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 1: like we are leading the charge in terms of revolutionizing

950
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 1: the workplace culture, and this is one example of it. Sadly,

951
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: it is a story that we hear over and over

952
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again. So it's personal

953
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: and it's terrifying for you to talk about it, but

954
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: it's really powerful that you're doing that because it allows

955
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: other people to realize they're not the only ones having

956
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: that experience and that it is not normal. Well, and

957
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: part of why I don't usually talk about it is

958
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: because it's also embarrassing. Yeah, hey man, I feel like, again, I,

959
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: of all people, I should have known. How did I

960
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: live like that many years underpaid when I'm supposed to

961
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: be the expert at that in my field? Uh, it

962
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: is embarrassing. It sucks. It's like financial literacy. I should

963
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: have known all that stuff. But sometimes it takes someone

964
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: pulling you aside and you know, giving me the tip

965
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: before you figure it all out. And I think that's

966
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: a big aspect of this conversation. And that's going on

967
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: because Kristen, you say it's embarrassing, but it's almost a trap.

968
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: I see General Akbar in my head yelling it's a

969
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: trap because on the one hand, we are supposed to

970
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: be responsible for negotiating in a way that nabs us

971
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: the most money. But on the other hand, we're not

972
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: empowered in a lot of ways to either know what

973
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: the industry standard is or to even think to research

974
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: what the industry standard is. And then certainly with if

975
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a hostile HR person or a hostile manager,

976
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: you're certainly not empowered to be able to ask for

977
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: more money or even ask about what coworkers are being

978
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: paid on average, and so like, Yes, well, I totally

979
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: agree that it is embarrassing to realize, like, oh, I've

980
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: contributed to being underpaid. It's such a trap. Well, and

981
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: hostility aside, it's all of the unconscious biases that you

982
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: as a woman, a woman of color, like whatever your

983
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: layers of identity are. Um as you two were talking

984
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: about at the beginning of our conversation, where it's impossible

985
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: for us to have a completely objective negotiation process. And

986
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: I do realize, of course that it's Admiral Akbar, my apologies,

987
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna get some mad Star Wars fan only feedback.

988
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: I know, I was just gonna say yeah, And you know,

989
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: on these topics, I mean, I will say I have

990
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: a lot of mixed feelings about the Sheryl Sandberg leen

991
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: in ethos um And definitely it is empowering for women

992
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: to go out and get this information and learn specific

993
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: strategies for how to negotiate on their own. Behalf. Reading

994
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: that book Why Women Don't Act Or Women Don't Ask

995
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: is really great, um, you know, like it's a really

996
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: good book. It's very informative. It helped me in my

997
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: personal negotiations. And then at the same time, in our work,

998
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: Ashley and I are constantly trying to also come at

999
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: it from the company angle and encouraging companies to not

1000
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: contribute to a situation where constantly individual employees are basically

1001
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: just out there trying to battle it on their own

1002
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: for getting paid what they're worth. This is why we

1003
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: advocate having this salary transparency as a company policy. UM,

1004
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: you know, we can help one another as employees by

1005
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: starting these conversations and talking to each other about what

1006
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: we make and you know, giving each other hand up

1007
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 1: to a greater path to wealth and to being paid

1008
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: what we're worth. So I, on the one hand, yes,

1009
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: you know, like there's so much that you can do

1010
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 1: on your own as an individual, UM, learn more about

1011
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: ways to approach these issues. And on the other hand,

1012
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: it's going to take a big group effort. It's going

1013
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: to take us supporting one another. It's going to take

1014
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: companies evolving their culture and practices to be more equitable

1015
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: and fair. Well, I think that's the perfect note to

1016
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: end on. Gina and Ashley, thank you so much for

1017
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: talking to us. Also, even before that, Gina, thank you

1018
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: for messaging Caroline and me before south By Southwest listeners.

1019
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: That's all how this went down, um, And can you

1020
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: let our listeners know how they can find out more

1021
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: about you and what recruit her is all about and

1022
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: what you all are doing. Sure, you can visit our

1023
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: website at recruit her dot io and that has all

1024
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: the information about how you can connect with us. We

1025
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: have an email newsletter you can sign up for if

1026
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: you're looking for a job or you just want to

1027
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: know what's out there. You can register and give us

1028
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: your resume and we'll see if we have something that

1029
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: matches you with one of the tech companies that's our clients.

1030
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: We also offer career coaching through our amazing Executive and

1031
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: Career coach area hunter UM and the variety of options

1032
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: of packages available for that, so look us up on mine.

1033
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook and

1034
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: LinkedIn what's your Twitter handle? While there's recruit her for

1035
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: the business Twitter and then I am Gina helfer Rick,

1036
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: no spaces, just all one word UM and Ashley's Ashley

1037
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: Underscore Doyle d O y A L. Well. Thank you

1038
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: so much to Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, the founders

1039
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: of recruit Her for talking to Caroline and me not

1040
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: only on the podcast but also at south By Southwest.

1041
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: It has been so great to build this relationship in

1042
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: such a quick time, UM, with these women who have

1043
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: so many insights on these issues. I feel like Caroline,

1044
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: we hear a lot about in terms of women you

1045
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: need to negotiate more and know you're worth But they're

1046
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: really offering these sharper tools for actually making those kinds

1047
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: of things happen. Maybe we should start our own Google

1048
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: doc for all sminty listeners and you can just go

1049
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: in and put your job title, like your salary and

1050
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: your hourly wage, and we can all look and see

1051
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: what other what do other feminist podcasters make? What what

1052
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: do other writers and waitresses and actresses make well? And

1053
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: we'd also have to make sure that we get some

1054
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: dudes to PLoP their salaries in there so that we

1055
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: can really compare and see how much we're really making

1056
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: or not. UM. But I'm sure that listeners have so

1057
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: many thoughts about our conversation with Gina and Ashley UM.

1058
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: So first, if you want to learn more about them,

1059
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: you can head over to their website again, it's recruit

1060
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: her dot io UM. And you can also listeners send

1061
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: us your letters about all of this. Have you encountered

1062
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,479
Speaker 1: any of these issues in your workplace. Have you ever

1063
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: done the thing of asking your coworkers how much they make?

1064
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: How did you do that? How did your boss respond? Yes,

1065
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: I'm asking for tips. Mom Stuff at house Stuffworks dot

1066
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us

1067
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook, and we've

1068
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay,

1069
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Christine Salinger, and I

1070
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: would not normally read off a listener's full name in

1071
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: the listener mail segment, but we actually mentioned and cited

1072
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 1: Christine in our episode on disability and sexuality. So here's

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01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 1: what Christine had to say. A friend recently told me

1074
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: that you quoted me in a podcast. I wanted to

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01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: go back and check it out. Thanks for doing that.

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01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: It's really great and you managed to cover a lot

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01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: in that quick hour. A couple of things I wanted

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01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: to hit on. Number one, the word suffered. You described

1079
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: me as someone who suffered a spinal cord injury, and

1080
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: this is a word I generally try to avoid. Instead,

1081
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: I used the phrase I sustained my spinal cord in jury.

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01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 1: The reason for this is that suffering carries a lot

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01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: of negative connotations, the image of a person who you

1084
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: should pity, and it's really just not true for me.

1085
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: As with many other people with disabilities. As you sort

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01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: of hit on in your podcast, disability is still seen

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01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: as being bad or lesser, So there's an assumption that

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01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: having a disability makes you suffer. But for many of us,

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01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: that isn't true. We each live with our disabilities. They

1090
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: are a part of us, in a part of our normal.

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01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: Number two actors. Near the end of your podcast, you

1092
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: talk about seeing more people with disabilities in media, and

1093
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: though that's great, I find it to be such a

1094
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: shame that they are most often portrayed by people who

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01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: don't actually have that disability. It may be understandable when

1096
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 1: talking about a movie or TV show where the character

1097
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: is depicted both with and without their disabilities, such as

1098
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: the Theory of Everything, but I don't believe it's right

1099
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: or okay for films like Avatar or television shows likely

1100
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: to use actors that don't have that disability. Just as

1101
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 1: we don't see actors in black face anymore, we shouldn't

1102
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: be seeing actors pretending to have disabilities. I'd also love

1103
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 1: to see disability in media normalized so that we see

1104
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: even extras as people with disabilities and not always a

1105
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 1: central character who's fighting against their disability in some way. Anyway,

1106
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: thanks again so much. I really believe that the more

1107
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: people know, the more accepting society will become. And thank

1108
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: you so much, Christine. We appreciate your letting. And I've

1109
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: got to let her hear from Meredith about the same

1110
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: podcast episode, and she writes, I was so excited to

1111
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: see a podcast addressing sexuality and disability. As being an

1112
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: occupational therapist, this is something I addressed frequently with my patients. However,

1113
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: I was disappointed that there wasn't a single mention of

1114
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: occupational therapy and the services they offer to help people

1115
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: learn and manage your sexuality after an injury. We were

1116
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: instead clustered in a therapy services that do not address

1117
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: this In rehab, occupational therapy is a frequently misunderstood part

1118
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: of the treatment team. We address daily functions and occupations

1119
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: like activities of daily living of people of any age,

1120
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 1: ability and diagnosis, and this can be getting dressed, driving,

1121
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: money management, and even sex. I've attached to link below

1122
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: to our national organization addressing the role of occupational therapy

1123
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 1: in sexuality and just thought you should know so Listeners

1124
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: That addresses over at A O T A dot org

1125
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about occupational therapy and Meredith,

1126
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: thank you so much for shining a light on that

1127
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: important work that you do and now, listeners, we want

1128
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 1: to hear from you as always. Mom stuff at how

1129
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: stuffwork dot com is our email address and for links

1130
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all

1131
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so

1132
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: you can learn more about salary transparency and recruit her.

1133
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com.

1134
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

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01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Three