WEBVTT - Presenting Mind Games | The Guru’s Guru 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.200 Hey, it's me and Devin. We're off again this week, 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 but we'll be back again next week. We got some 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:10.080 really good episodes on Horizon. But this week we want 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.840 to share a new show we're really excited about. It's 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.160 called mind Games by journalists Zoe and Alice who are 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:22.720 best friends diving into this world of neuro linguistic programming, 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:27.840 which is a controversial form of hypnosis. NLP, as it's 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.080 otherwise known, is relatively unknown, but it's also kind of 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.360 used all over the place. From startups to US Army 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.239 and the NFL are all using this form of hypnosis. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.080 So in mind Games, they go deep into the crazy 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.199 world of MLP and it's crazy cast at Disciples and 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.880 they try to figure out does this weird form of 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.280 hypnosis like actually work. This is gonna be the first 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.840 episode of the series in your Feet this week. If 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:58.720 you like what you hear, We're gonna leave a link 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.760 to this show page in our show notes so you 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.160 can click on ourverd Air subscribe and follow along so 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.039 you can get new episodes of my games every week. 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:17.399 All right, I guess I. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.200 Completely dissociated for my body. I had so much panic 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.160 and I was so afraid that when I opened my 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.360 mouth and said the five words that I said when 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.319 I was in front of the room, I thought it 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.240 was someone else talking, and I said, I'm never doing 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:36.759 this again. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.120 In the late nineteen eighties, Nancy had a phobia of 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.039 public speaking and it was getting in the way of 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.319 her job. She was a nurse who specialized in working 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:48.680 with chronic pain patients. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.440 But there's something about being able to help somebody that 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.440 just makes me so It's probably the biggest motivator of 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:57.400 my entire life. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.200 Nancy wanted to share her skills more people and to 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.560 grow her business, but there was one big problem. She 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.000 was terrified of public speaking. Get her in front of 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:12.120 a room of people, and Nancy would totally freeze. Then 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.480 she met someone, a woman who said she could cure 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.960 Nancy's lifelong fear in a few short minutes using something 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.959 called neuro linguistic programming, or NLP. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.239 She did an NLP phobia fix on me and took 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.480 away my fear of public speaking. And look at me now, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.640 I'm a big ham and I love public speaking and 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.799 I would do anything to do public speaking. But she 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.760 fixed She fixed that problem using an NLP technique and 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.080 it never was a problem again. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.360 Quickly, NLP became Nancy's whole life. Soon she was working 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.200 as a consultant for Fortune five hundred companies. As a coach, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.400 she helped thousands of people conquer their own fears. This 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.760 was way more people than she had ever dreamed of 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.000 helping as a nurse, and it was all thanks to NLP. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:08.200 NLP is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Nancy 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.000 used it to found a self help company for ambitious professionals. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.880 The Dalai Lama even checked out one of their events. 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.840 The company was called Nexium. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:25.480 Nexium is a methodology that allows people to optimize their behavior. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.800 Brainwashing, sex abuse, and even branding. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.480 Nancy Saltzman, the co founder of the Capital Region based 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.360 sex called Nexium, has been released from prison. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.160 NLP made a Nancy's career, but then a version of 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:48.960 it destroyed her and destroyed the lives of others. But 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:50.360 what even is NLP. 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:54.760 Take a deep breath, is. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:01.800 And breed out. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.720 that I can speak privately on your unconscious mind. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.920 From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is episode one of 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:20.200 mind Games. I'm Alice Hines, I'm Zoe Lascas. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:24.600 You don't know how you did it. 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.240 Tell you you're going to a little Time to stars stake. 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:31.200 And you're out of it. 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.200 We're reporters, we're also friends. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:36.760 We're into some pretty weird shit. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.200 True story. We met at a shamonic sound meditation. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.960 Yeah, that was a few years ago, and there were 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.640 some changes that occurred. 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:50.440 Alice understatement of the century. You astraually traveled as I recall. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.360 I mean, yeah, you like basically do like a long 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.599 meditation at this thing, and I realized some shit about 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.440 my life. Number one, Zoe was my new best friend, 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.680 and Number on I actually broke up with someone who 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:03.760 I've been dating for five years after this event. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.880 Whoopsie daisies. It was for the best. Yeah, everything worked 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.760 out just fine, especially the friendship. Here we are. But yeah, 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.800 I think it was that weekend, sometime before all the 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.599 gongs and rain sticks and chimes got going, that we 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.200 realized we have a ton in common. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.360 Yeah we do. We're both reporters and kind of professional skeptics, 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.960 Zoe being a science journalist and me being a journalist 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.760 who has exposed lots of wellness scams and cults, we 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.440 sort of have to smell the bullshit, but at the 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:33.799 same time keep an open mind. 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.960 And we've also, between the two of us, logged something 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.839 like five million hours on the couches of our respective therapists, 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.880 and I think that's partly why we're interested in alternative therapies, Like, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.200 what if you didn't have to spend hours and hours 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.240 and hours of your life and hundreds of dollars on 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:52.520 mainstream psychiatry. 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.479 I hope my therapist isn't listening to this. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:06:00.320 Yeah, sorry, Annie, they probably are. So in this series, 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.919 we're going to go spelunking into the murky depths of 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.200 neurolinguistic programming or NLP, and we're gonna try to find 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.240 out if it deserves its sort of shady reputation. 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.239 So I first heard about NLP because an alleged cult 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.760 that I was investigating said they used it. So this 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.720 wasn't Nexium, it was a different group called Twin Flames. 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:23.080 And what did they use NLP for? 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.679 Okay, here's a quote from some of the documentation around 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:31.080 this group that they put out. Your practitioner will expertly 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.000 access your trauma like a world class computer programmer, rooting 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.440 out a bug in the system. 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.279 Not scary at all. No, that sounds totally normal. 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.720 Yeah, so that's how they used NLP. But we were 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.680 curious whether these techniques could be used in other contexts, 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.279 and when we started looking into it, we realized NLP 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:50.760 is literally. 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:54.760 Everywhere, and we do mean everywhere. You've probably used an 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.200 NLP technique without knowing it, or someone's used one on you. 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.400 Yeah. It's the basis of a ton of self help movements, 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.880 any type of manifesting, visualizations, vision boards. If you've done 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:09.880 any of that, you've done NLP. 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.600 It has a ton of boldface name followers. There are 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.000 Olympic divers who have used NLP to perfect their form. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.200 The Wolf of Wall Street Jordan Belfort used it for 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:25.320 closing deals. Fortune five hundred. Companies like Apple, IBM, Coca 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:29.080 Cola have spent tons of money on NLP sales trainings 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:30.200 over the past fifty. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.200 Years, and so did Army Intelligence. They sought out NLP 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.280 to improve soldier marksmanship and spycraft. They called it a 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.720 technology for enhancing human performance. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:47.000 And NLP spawned the self help behemoth that is Tony Robbins. 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.880 Anybody could be in a good state when things are 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.000 going your way, But if you can stay at a 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:57.000 beautiful state when things don't flow your way, then you're 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:58.280 going to have a beautiful wife. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.320 That's Tony from one of his many ads for Unleash 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.720 the Power within a four day event that regularly draws 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:10.000 thousands of people. He's coach Serena Williams, advised Bill Clinton, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.000 and even taught Oprah to walk on hot coals. Tony's 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.280 built an empire telling people they can radically improve themselves 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:17.960 using NLP. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:20.280 Do you want to change your life? You want to 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:25.760 get out of suffering, trade your expectations for appreciation, and 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:27.440 your whole life will change in that moment. 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.760 But NLP promises more than personal growth. It also promises 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.720 to teach you how to persuade others. 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.080 If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.880 what kind of life would you have? Somebody would scared 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:46.000 of when I said word control people's behaviors. It's already happening. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.080 Fans of NLP say it's like finally getting a user 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.120 manual for your brain. It makes reprogramming the way you 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.440 think quick and easy. You can simply delete bad habits, 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.439 vanish crippling phobias, and install new patterns like. 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.400 Software sounds a little too good to be true. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.840 NLP is a model of language patterns to create behavior change. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.760 Every human problem is a behavioral problem. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.480 All communication is some form of manipulation. 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.960 By changing all behaviors, we could change the entire world. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.120 If you google NLP, you'll find a lot of credible 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:25.839 sources saying it's a pseudoscience. 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.960 Yet not everything that doesn't go through peer review journals 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.840 and double blind studies is necessarily useless. Think of alternative therapies. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.800 People get a lot out of anyway. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.240 Or hypnosis, right, like. 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.880 Hypnosis which is used by legit doctors to help people 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.400 with very concrete. 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:49.079 Problems smoking, cessation, pain management phobias. 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.760 But then it also exists in the collective imagination as 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.880 this sort of magical Brainwashy's Fengalia mind control tactic. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.240 By the way, a lot of NLP is hypnosis. There's 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:05.120 huge crossover. Hypnosis is actually how Nancy Salzman got into NLP. 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.120 I'll do a session with you whatever you want, okay, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:13.320 So how do you feel about giving birth? 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:20.160 I am excited to give birth, but I'm also definitely 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.240 afraid of the physical ordeal. I'm here in a suburban 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.160 townhouse outside of Albany, New York. With Nancy. We're sitting 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.240 on a comfy couch in her upstairs office, surrounded by 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.400 books about Buddhism and neuroscience. I was expecting the Nancy 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:40.440 salesman I'd seen on HBO, pant suits, corporate charisma, but 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.120 today she's stressed casually and feels more like a mom 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.800 hosting a soccer team. She's prepared an entire lunch spread 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.920 for us and seems really happy to have company. Her 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.040 hairless cat keeps jumping on my lap. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.959 What is that physical ordeal of birth in your understanding? 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:02.000 Let's see. The physical ordeal is, like I guess, I'm 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.360 afraid of like permanent change, that it is irreversible to 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.120 my body. I'm afraid of injury, as you've probably guessed. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.719 I'm pregnant like do In a couple months. When I 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.680 went to visit Nancy, I'd already been trying hypnosis for relaxation. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.680 Turns out hypnobirth thing is one of Nancy's specialties. So 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:23.640 we're giving in a whirl. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.200 Alice, Please don't get brainwashed by Nancy salesman. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.880 Okay, I know everyone's probably thinking right now that I'm 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.640 a little nuts, But I came here to learn about 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.160 Nancy's methods and sometimes the only way to understand something 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:37.800 is to try it. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.480 How are you with risk in other things? I'm okay 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.640 with some risk? What do you mean, like, I feel 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.319 like I don't think. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.280 I could be a journalist without taking on some risk. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.320 That is what I was thinking. So probably, like today, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:59.920 for instance, you don't know me and here you are 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.760 coming into my house. I mean, you have a little 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.400 team with you, but who knows what I could have 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.080 done here in my house to create a reversible, permanent 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.360 change that could never be You never know, right, But 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.839 this feels okay to you. Yeah, that's right. 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.400 So there are many I wasn't sure how much to 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.440 trust Nancy, And the fact that this whole thing was 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.360 being recorded and my producers were in the room was 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.079 also kind of awkward. This was also the very first 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.640 interview she was giving since she got out of prison. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.640 Nancy pled guilty to some charges related to her work 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.520 in Nexium, but she's consistently maintained that she was also 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.360 a victim of the group, and she says she was 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.559 unaware of its most infamous crimes like branding and sex trafficking. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:54.560 I thought doing this interview would be good because the 0:12:54.720 --> 0:13:02.560 media that happened when my company fell apart was so inaccurate, 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.600 and I've always wanted people to know who I was, 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.439 what I was involved in, why I did the work 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.760 that I did, because it was overshadowed all by the 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:16.920 media craziness. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.959 I wasn't here to rehash the Naxium story. I wanted 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.200 to learn more about her work with NLP, and I 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.400 had to give it to Nancy. She was very perceptive. 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.480 Anytime I used a word, she dug into the unconscious 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.760 reasons I had maybe picked it, And. 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:35.720 I'll be tell me, just listen very carefully to why 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.880 the person says, and I'm trying it on going. Did 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.800 I worry about that? Any of the women I've ever 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.920 I've ever done this with, ever say that I'm worried 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.280 about injury. Nobody's ever said that I'm worried about injury. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.000 Okay, just want to jump in here for a second. 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.920 It's very odd to me, Alice, that she said no 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.920 woman has ever told her they're worried about injury during childbirth. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.000 For most women, I know that is a major concern. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.200 Why do you think Nancy was going out of her 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:07.760 way to make you feel like a freak. 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.640 Okay, I guess you're right. I mean, so, here's what 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.840 I think she was doing. By making me think my 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.480 problem is in my head, it becomes weirdly fixable. So 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:20.359 it's a strategy. 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.000 Are you afraid of pain? Have you had much pain 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:24.600 in your life? 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.600 Some I got in a skiing accident once that was 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:30.680 pretty painful. 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.440 What happened? I actually don't really know. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.680 I had mixed feelings about this whole session. But later 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:41.400 Nancy used our conversation to make me a hypno birthing tape, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.640 and I was surprised by how into it I was. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:51.600 Take a deep breath in and slowly exhale, and notice 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.720 how your body feels that you have a body, and 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.000 that your body has taken care of you all through 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.040 your life and will continue to take care of you 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.040 now and in the future. 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.400 I listened to this tape regularly as I prepared to 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.720 give birth, although I will admit I transcribed it first 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.520 to make sure there wasn't anything creepy or supplemental messages. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:29.360 You can allow yourself to become more and more self assured. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.280 So did it work? 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.400 I think it kind of did. Yeah. I mean, even 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.200 listening to it now, it makes me feel relaxed, you. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.720 Too, are Yeah, No, it's a vibe. It honestly reminds 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.800 me of something you'd find on a meditation app. 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.000 Yeah, and it's not just Nancy's words, but her tone 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.240 and the way she's pacing it. It gave me confidence 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.720 as I listened it. Yeah, it totally took the edge off. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:02.760 And you can relax into each contraction and allow your 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.040 body to do what it already knows how to do. 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.640 Nancy learned these hypnotic language patterns from NLP. It's her 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.520 secret sauce. When Nancy was a kid, her mother suffered 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:21.960 from debilitating back pain. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.080 I grew up in New Jersey in a middle class family. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.160 My mother had a chronic pain problem that started when 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.280 I was about six, and I think I was one 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.320 of those kids who was really empathic. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.640 So she became a nurse specifically interested in treating chronic 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:44.880 pain patients through alternative medicine. That's how she found hypnosis. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:46.680 I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted to do 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.000 something non traditional, and my ex husband was a physician 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.440 and he introduced me to the whole idea whole idea, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.240 hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback, and one thing led 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.040 me to another, to another to another. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.640 And hypnosis is how Nancy found NLP. 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.240 I thought the language patterns in NLP were brilliant, and 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.280 NLP said that you could break down any behavior and 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.760 teach it to somebody else. So I started learning to 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.800 break down behaviors and look for different things that I 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:19.080 had ever looked for before. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:21.440 But she was weary at first. 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.400 Well, they made a lot of claims that the skills 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.520 of NLP could fix phobias, could do a whole number 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.520 of things that were amazing to me, and if it 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.760 was possible, I wanted to learn, but I was kind 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:35.359 of skeptical. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.720 If it was possible. If you're beginning to wonder what 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.200 exactly NLP is, that's normal. It can mean a lot 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.280 of different things and be used a lot of different ways. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.640 Don't worry. We're going to explain it over the course 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.560 of the series, and we'll get into how some people 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.879 see it as the ultimate life hack, while others have 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.280 laundered it into extreme methods of controlling others. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.679 For now, what you need to know is that NLP 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.720 formed the basis of Nancy's self help programs. In Nexium. 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.960 I saw many, many, many many people benefit. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.840 And you are still proud of the program you created. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.720 Yes, I'm absolutely proud of it. I'm not proud of 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.120 how everything ended up. 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.159 Nancy still believes in NLP deeply and uses it all 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.520 the time. It got her through prison. 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.879 I will tell you that the judge sentenced me to 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.760 go to a camp like Martha Stewart, and that's what 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:33.520 I thought was going to happen. And they sent me 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.879 to a maximum security female prison and it was a nightmare. 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.440 Nancy pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy charges for her role 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.000 in Nexium. She was sent to federal prison in West 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.360 Virginia in February of twenty twenty two. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:53.320 I was terrified because they were really mean. They were 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.560 very mean. I had no rights, like you have no 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.879 rights when you're there, and whatever they want to do 0:18:58.920 --> 0:18:59.919 with you, they're going to do with you. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.240 She says. This dark chapter of her life still haunts her. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.560 When she's feeling down, she turns to NLP. 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.960 And when I tell you the worst moments, moments when 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.560 I believed I had been dealt a really unfair hand, 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.000 and I had been stuck in a horrible situation where 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.919 I was given no control, and I allowed myself to 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:28.520 start really suffering about it and feeling really victimized and miserable. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.639 About a month in, I said to myself, what is 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:39.679 wrong with you? You have all of these tools, use them. 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.119 And I put myself in a good state. And I said, 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.600 you see, you know how to do this. It is 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.720 inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.760 are making yourself miserable. You don't know when you're leaving, 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:56.920 you don't know how long you have to be here. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.640 You don't know what's going to happen. But you have 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:04.960 control all of your state. Use it. And I did, 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.080 and I kept myself in a good state the whole 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:09.520 time I was stuck in prison. 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.920 Oooh, yikes. That was intense. 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.720 Yeah, And I know maybe some listeners are thinking, can 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.719 we trust Nancy here? Is it possible she's hyping NLP 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.520 because she's looking for a comeback or a way to 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.600 talk about anything other than exium. Maybe maybe not. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.800 I actually find Nancy credible here. She didn't have to 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.160 talk about using NLP on herself in prison. And what 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.639 I find really striking is that NLP clearly isn't just 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.440 some scammy hustle she used on other people. She used 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.440 it on herself. This is what saved her. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.160 Yeah, she's saying she used NLP in the most high 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:52.920 stake situation of her whole life. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.080 Did she explain though, how that actually worked, like which 0:20:58.200 --> 0:20:59.919 NLP methods was she using. 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:04.240 Yeah, So there's this concept in NLP. It has kind 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.680 of a CYBORGI name. It's called state control. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.160 And what's so great about state control is that once 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.520 you learn that you can bring up an excited state, 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:16.880 it naturally follows that you can bring up any state 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:17.320 you want. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.199 Nancy learned of these techniques from a man who was 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:25.800 incredibly influential in her life, NLP co founder Richard Bandler. 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.359 And what Richard Bamler taught me in that weekend, which 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.399 was the most amazing thing of all, was that I 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.520 had control over my emotional states. And I had no 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:42.240 excuse ever to be in a bad state ever unless 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.920 I was allowing it. And I will forever be grateful 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:45.480 to him for that. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:50.000 You were using these techniques decades later when you went 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:50.439 to prison. 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:54.160 I'm still using them. My mother just died. I could 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.440 just sit here and cry with you. I'm so sad, 0:21:57.920 --> 0:21:59.680 but that's not what we're here to do, so I'm 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.439 not going to and you don't have to see that. 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.040 So, just to give you some context, Nancy's mom died 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.679 three weeks before our interview. We were going to cancel, 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.160 but then she said she didn't want to, and when 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:18.960 we got to her house, she had cooked us this 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.359 whole lunch like black bean soup, So naturally when she 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.560 started crying in this moment, I felt really bad and 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:27.760 just wanted to give her a hug. 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:34.480 Okay, apologies, this is going to sound incredibly harsh, but 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.200 I have to ask, are we sure she was actually 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.479 losing control of her emotions. Didn't she just tell us 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.800 she can be wildly happy in prison? Could she also 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.840 make herself cry on cue? 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.399 Part of me did feel like I was watching a 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.520 talented actor. It was kind of whiplash her swing from 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:58.440 anguish to then calmly referencing her mother's death, and these 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.240 emotions were also visible in her her face and voice, 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:05.320 so it would just instantly shift. My take is that 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.480 these are Nancy's real emotions, but she has an insane 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.480 level of control about when to dial in to a 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:17.040 specific emotion and immediately shift to another. She says, anyone 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.200 can do this, it's the power of NLP. 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.639 As someone who does occasionally fall to pieces, this ability 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.400 sounds incredibly seductive. I would honestly love to have more 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:28.920 emotional control on command. 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.919 Yeah, totally. But what's scarier is the idea that the 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:37.880 person teaching you these emotional control techniques could also use 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:38.600 them against you. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.439