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Speaker 1: Hey, it's me and Devin. We're off again this week,

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Speaker 1: but we'll be back again next week. We got some

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Speaker 1: really good episodes on Horizon. But this week we want

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Speaker 1: to share a new show we're really excited about. It's

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Speaker 1: called mind Games by journalists Zoe and Alice who are

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Speaker 1: best friends diving into this world of neuro linguistic programming,

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Speaker 1: which is a controversial form of hypnosis. NLP, as it's

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Speaker 1: otherwise known, is relatively unknown, but it's also kind of

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Speaker 1: used all over the place. From startups to US Army

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Speaker 1: and the NFL are all using this form of hypnosis.

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Speaker 1: So in mind Games, they go deep into the crazy

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Speaker 1: world of MLP and it's crazy cast at Disciples and

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Speaker 1: they try to figure out does this weird form of

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Speaker 1: hypnosis like actually work. This is gonna be the first

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Speaker 1: episode of the series in your Feet this week. If

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Speaker 1: you like what you hear, We're gonna leave a link

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Speaker 1: to this show page in our show notes so you

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Speaker 1: can click on ourverd Air subscribe and follow along so

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Speaker 1: you can get new episodes of my games every week.

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Speaker 2: All right, I guess I.

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Speaker 3: Completely dissociated for my body. I had so much panic

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Speaker 3: and I was so afraid that when I opened my

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Speaker 3: mouth and said the five words that I said when

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Speaker 3: I was in front of the room, I thought it

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Speaker 3: was someone else talking, and I said, I'm never doing

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Speaker 3: this again.

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Speaker 4: In the late nineteen eighties, Nancy had a phobia of

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Speaker 4: public speaking and it was getting in the way of

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Speaker 4: her job. She was a nurse who specialized in working

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Speaker 4: with chronic pain patients.

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Speaker 3: But there's something about being able to help somebody that

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Speaker 3: just makes me so It's probably the biggest motivator of

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Speaker 3: my entire life.

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Speaker 4: Nancy wanted to share her skills more people and to

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Speaker 4: grow her business, but there was one big problem. She

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Speaker 4: was terrified of public speaking. Get her in front of

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Speaker 4: a room of people, and Nancy would totally freeze. Then

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Speaker 4: she met someone, a woman who said she could cure

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Speaker 4: Nancy's lifelong fear in a few short minutes using something

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Speaker 4: called neuro linguistic programming, or NLP.

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Speaker 3: She did an NLP phobia fix on me and took

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Speaker 3: away my fear of public speaking. And look at me now,

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Speaker 3: I'm a big ham and I love public speaking and

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Speaker 3: I would do anything to do public speaking. But she

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Speaker 3: fixed She fixed that problem using an NLP technique and

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Speaker 3: it never was a problem again.

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Speaker 4: Quickly, NLP became Nancy's whole life. Soon she was working

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Speaker 4: as a consultant for Fortune five hundred companies. As a coach,

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Speaker 4: she helped thousands of people conquer their own fears. This

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Speaker 4: was way more people than she had ever dreamed of

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Speaker 4: helping as a nurse, and it was all thanks to NLP.

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Speaker 4: NLP is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Nancy

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Speaker 4: used it to found a self help company for ambitious professionals.

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Speaker 4: The Dalai Lama even checked out one of their events.

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Speaker 4: The company was called Nexium.

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Speaker 5: Nexium is a methodology that allows people to optimize their behavior.

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Speaker 6: Brainwashing, sex abuse, and even branding.

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Speaker 7: Nancy Saltzman, the co founder of the Capital Region based

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Speaker 7: sex called Nexium, has been released from prison.

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Speaker 4: NLP made a Nancy's career, but then a version of

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Speaker 4: it destroyed her and destroyed the lives of others. But

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Speaker 4: what even is NLP.

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Speaker 8: Take a deep breath, is.

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Speaker 9: And breed out.

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Speaker 5: Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so

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Speaker 5: that I can speak privately on your unconscious mind.

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Speaker 4: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is episode one of

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Speaker 4: mind Games. I'm Alice Hines, I'm Zoe Lascas.

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Speaker 10: You don't know how you did it.

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Speaker 11: Tell you you're going to a little Time to stars stake.

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Speaker 7: And you're out of it.

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Speaker 6: We're reporters, we're also friends.

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Speaker 4: We're into some pretty weird shit.

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Speaker 6: True story. We met at a shamonic sound meditation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a few years ago, and there were

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Speaker 4: some changes that occurred.

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Speaker 6: Alice understatement of the century. You astraually traveled as I recall.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, you like basically do like a long

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Speaker 4: meditation at this thing, and I realized some shit about

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Speaker 4: my life. Number one, Zoe was my new best friend,

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Speaker 4: and Number on I actually broke up with someone who

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Speaker 4: I've been dating for five years after this event.

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Speaker 6: Whoopsie daisies. It was for the best. Yeah, everything worked

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Speaker 6: out just fine, especially the friendship. Here we are. But yeah,

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Speaker 6: I think it was that weekend, sometime before all the

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Speaker 6: gongs and rain sticks and chimes got going, that we

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Speaker 6: realized we have a ton in common.

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Speaker 4: Yeah we do. We're both reporters and kind of professional skeptics,

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Speaker 4: Zoe being a science journalist and me being a journalist

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Speaker 4: who has exposed lots of wellness scams and cults, we

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Speaker 4: sort of have to smell the bullshit, but at the

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Speaker 4: same time keep an open mind.

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Speaker 6: And we've also, between the two of us, logged something

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Speaker 6: like five million hours on the couches of our respective therapists,

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Speaker 6: and I think that's partly why we're interested in alternative therapies, Like,

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Speaker 6: what if you didn't have to spend hours and hours

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Speaker 6: and hours of your life and hundreds of dollars on

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Speaker 6: mainstream psychiatry.

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Speaker 4: I hope my therapist isn't listening to this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, sorry, Annie, they probably are. So in this series,

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Speaker 6: we're going to go spelunking into the murky depths of

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Speaker 6: neurolinguistic programming or NLP, and we're gonna try to find

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Speaker 6: out if it deserves its sort of shady reputation.

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Speaker 4: So I first heard about NLP because an alleged cult

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Speaker 4: that I was investigating said they used it. So this

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Speaker 4: wasn't Nexium, it was a different group called Twin Flames.

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Speaker 6: And what did they use NLP for?

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Speaker 4: Okay, here's a quote from some of the documentation around

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Speaker 4: this group that they put out. Your practitioner will expertly

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Speaker 4: access your trauma like a world class computer programmer, rooting

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Speaker 4: out a bug in the system.

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Speaker 6: Not scary at all. No, that sounds totally normal.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's how they used NLP. But we were

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Speaker 4: curious whether these techniques could be used in other contexts,

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Speaker 4: and when we started looking into it, we realized NLP

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Speaker 4: is literally.

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Speaker 6: Everywhere, and we do mean everywhere. You've probably used an

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Speaker 6: NLP technique without knowing it, or someone's used one on you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It's the basis of a ton of self help movements,

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Speaker 4: any type of manifesting, visualizations, vision boards. If you've done

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Speaker 4: any of that, you've done NLP.

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Speaker 6: It has a ton of boldface name followers. There are

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Speaker 6: Olympic divers who have used NLP to perfect their form.

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Speaker 6: The Wolf of Wall Street Jordan Belfort used it for

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Speaker 6: closing deals. Fortune five hundred. Companies like Apple, IBM, Coca

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Speaker 6: Cola have spent tons of money on NLP sales trainings

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Speaker 6: over the past fifty.

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Speaker 4: Years, and so did Army Intelligence. They sought out NLP

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Speaker 4: to improve soldier marksmanship and spycraft. They called it a

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Speaker 4: technology for enhancing human performance.

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Speaker 6: And NLP spawned the self help behemoth that is Tony Robbins.

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Speaker 9: Anybody could be in a good state when things are

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Speaker 9: going your way, But if you can stay at a

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Speaker 9: beautiful state when things don't flow your way, then you're

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Speaker 9: going to have a beautiful wife.

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Speaker 6: That's Tony from one of his many ads for Unleash

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Speaker 6: the Power within a four day event that regularly draws

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Speaker 6: thousands of people. He's coach Serena Williams, advised Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 6: and even taught Oprah to walk on hot coals. Tony's

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Speaker 6: built an empire telling people they can radically improve themselves

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Speaker 6: using NLP.

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Speaker 7: Do you want to change your life? You want to

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Speaker 7: get out of suffering, trade your expectations for appreciation, and

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Speaker 7: your whole life will change in that moment.

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Speaker 4: But NLP promises more than personal growth. It also promises

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Speaker 4: to teach you how to persuade others.

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Speaker 7: If you could control the behavior of anybody around you,

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Speaker 7: what kind of life would you have? Somebody would scared

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Speaker 7: of when I said word control people's behaviors. It's already happening.

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Speaker 6: Fans of NLP say it's like finally getting a user

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Speaker 6: manual for your brain. It makes reprogramming the way you

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Speaker 6: think quick and easy. You can simply delete bad habits,

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Speaker 6: vanish crippling phobias, and install new patterns like.

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Speaker 4: Software sounds a little too good to be true.

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Speaker 3: NLP is a model of language patterns to create behavior change.

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Speaker 7: Every human problem is a behavioral problem.

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Speaker 3: All communication is some form of manipulation.

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Speaker 7: By changing all behaviors, we could change the entire world.

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Speaker 4: If you google NLP, you'll find a lot of credible

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Speaker 4: sources saying it's a pseudoscience.

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Speaker 6: Yet not everything that doesn't go through peer review journals

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Speaker 6: and double blind studies is necessarily useless. Think of alternative therapies.

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Speaker 6: People get a lot out of anyway.

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Speaker 4: Or hypnosis, right, like.

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Speaker 6: Hypnosis which is used by legit doctors to help people

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Speaker 6: with very concrete.

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Speaker 4: Problems smoking, cessation, pain management phobias.

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Speaker 6: But then it also exists in the collective imagination as

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Speaker 6: this sort of magical Brainwashy's Fengalia mind control tactic.

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Speaker 4: By the way, a lot of NLP is hypnosis. There's

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Speaker 4: huge crossover. Hypnosis is actually how Nancy Salzman got into NLP.

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Speaker 3: I'll do a session with you whatever you want, okay,

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Speaker 3: So how do you feel about giving birth?

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Speaker 4: I am excited to give birth, but I'm also definitely

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Speaker 4: afraid of the physical ordeal. I'm here in a suburban

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Speaker 4: townhouse outside of Albany, New York. With Nancy. We're sitting

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Speaker 4: on a comfy couch in her upstairs office, surrounded by

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Speaker 4: books about Buddhism and neuroscience. I was expecting the Nancy

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Speaker 4: salesman I'd seen on HBO, pant suits, corporate charisma, but

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Speaker 4: today she's stressed casually and feels more like a mom

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Speaker 4: hosting a soccer team. She's prepared an entire lunch spread

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Speaker 4: for us and seems really happy to have company. Her

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Speaker 4: hairless cat keeps jumping on my lap.

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Speaker 3: What is that physical ordeal of birth in your understanding?

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Speaker 4: Let's see. The physical ordeal is, like I guess, I'm

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Speaker 4: afraid of like permanent change, that it is irreversible to

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Speaker 4: my body. I'm afraid of injury, as you've probably guessed.

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Speaker 4: I'm pregnant like do In a couple months. When I

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Speaker 4: went to visit Nancy, I'd already been trying hypnosis for relaxation.

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Speaker 4: Turns out hypnobirth thing is one of Nancy's specialties. So

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Speaker 4: we're giving in a whirl.

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Speaker 6: Alice, Please don't get brainwashed by Nancy salesman.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I know everyone's probably thinking right now that I'm

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Speaker 4: a little nuts, But I came here to learn about

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Speaker 4: Nancy's methods and sometimes the only way to understand something

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Speaker 4: is to try it.

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Speaker 3: How are you with risk in other things? I'm okay

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Speaker 3: with some risk? What do you mean, like, I feel

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Speaker 3: like I don't think.

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Speaker 4: I could be a journalist without taking on some risk.

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Speaker 3: That is what I was thinking. So probably, like today,

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Speaker 3: for instance, you don't know me and here you are

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Speaker 3: coming into my house. I mean, you have a little

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Speaker 3: team with you, but who knows what I could have

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Speaker 3: done here in my house to create a reversible, permanent

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Speaker 3: change that could never be You never know, right, But

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Speaker 3: this feels okay to you. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: So there are many I wasn't sure how much to

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Speaker 4: trust Nancy, And the fact that this whole thing was

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Speaker 4: being recorded and my producers were in the room was

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Speaker 4: also kind of awkward. This was also the very first

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Speaker 4: interview she was giving since she got out of prison.

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Speaker 4: Nancy pled guilty to some charges related to her work

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Speaker 4: in Nexium, but she's consistently maintained that she was also

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Speaker 4: a victim of the group, and she says she was

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Speaker 4: unaware of its most infamous crimes like branding and sex trafficking.

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Speaker 3: I thought doing this interview would be good because the

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Speaker 3: media that happened when my company fell apart was so inaccurate,

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Speaker 3: and I've always wanted people to know who I was,

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Speaker 3: what I was involved in, why I did the work

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Speaker 3: that I did, because it was overshadowed all by the

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Speaker 3: media craziness.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't here to rehash the Naxium story. I wanted

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Speaker 4: to learn more about her work with NLP, and I

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Speaker 4: had to give it to Nancy. She was very perceptive.

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Speaker 4: Anytime I used a word, she dug into the unconscious

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Speaker 4: reasons I had maybe picked it, And.

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Speaker 3: I'll be tell me, just listen very carefully to why

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Speaker 3: the person says, and I'm trying it on going. Did

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Speaker 3: I worry about that? Any of the women I've ever

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Speaker 3: I've ever done this with, ever say that I'm worried

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Speaker 3: about injury. Nobody's ever said that I'm worried about injury.

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Speaker 6: Okay, just want to jump in here for a second.

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Speaker 6: It's very odd to me, Alice, that she said no

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Speaker 6: woman has ever told her they're worried about injury during childbirth.

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Speaker 6: For most women, I know that is a major concern.

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Speaker 6: Why do you think Nancy was going out of her

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Speaker 6: way to make you feel like a freak.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I guess you're right. I mean, so, here's what

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Speaker 4: I think she was doing. By making me think my

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Speaker 4: problem is in my head, it becomes weirdly fixable. So

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Speaker 4: it's a strategy.

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Speaker 3: Are you afraid of pain? Have you had much pain

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Speaker 3: in your life?

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Speaker 4: Some I got in a skiing accident once that was

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Speaker 4: pretty painful.

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Speaker 3: What happened? I actually don't really know.

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Speaker 4: I had mixed feelings about this whole session. But later

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Speaker 4: Nancy used our conversation to make me a hypno birthing tape,

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Speaker 4: and I was surprised by how into it I was.

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Speaker 8: Take a deep breath in and slowly exhale, and notice

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Speaker 8: how your body feels that you have a body, and

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Speaker 8: that your body has taken care of you all through

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Speaker 8: your life and will continue to take care of you

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Speaker 8: now and in the future.

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Speaker 4: I listened to this tape regularly as I prepared to

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Speaker 4: give birth, although I will admit I transcribed it first

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Speaker 4: to make sure there wasn't anything creepy or supplemental messages.

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Speaker 8: You can allow yourself to become more and more self assured.

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Speaker 6: So did it work?

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Speaker 4: I think it kind of did. Yeah. I mean, even

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Speaker 4: listening to it now, it makes me feel relaxed, you.

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Speaker 6: Too, are Yeah, No, it's a vibe. It honestly reminds

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Speaker 6: me of something you'd find on a meditation app.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not just Nancy's words, but her tone

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Speaker 4: and the way she's pacing it. It gave me confidence

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Speaker 4: as I listened it. Yeah, it totally took the edge off.

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Speaker 8: And you can relax into each contraction and allow your

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Speaker 8: body to do what it already knows how to do.

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Speaker 4: Nancy learned these hypnotic language patterns from NLP. It's her

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Speaker 4: secret sauce. When Nancy was a kid, her mother suffered

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Speaker 4: from debilitating back pain.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in New Jersey in a middle class family.

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Speaker 3: My mother had a chronic pain problem that started when

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Speaker 3: I was about six, and I think I was one

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Speaker 3: of those kids who was really empathic.

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Speaker 4: So she became a nurse specifically interested in treating chronic

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Speaker 4: pain patients through alternative medicine. That's how she found hypnosis.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: something non traditional, and my ex husband was a physician

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Speaker 3: and he introduced me to the whole idea whole idea,

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Speaker 3: hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback, and one thing led

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Speaker 3: me to another, to another to another.

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Speaker 4: And hypnosis is how Nancy found NLP.

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Speaker 3: I thought the language patterns in NLP were brilliant, and

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Speaker 3: NLP said that you could break down any behavior and

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Speaker 3: teach it to somebody else. So I started learning to

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Speaker 3: break down behaviors and look for different things that I

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Speaker 3: had ever looked for before.

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Speaker 4: But she was weary at first.

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Speaker 12: Well, they made a lot of claims that the skills

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Speaker 12: of NLP could fix phobias, could do a whole number

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Speaker 12: of things that were amazing to me, and if it

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Speaker 12: was possible, I wanted to learn, but I was kind

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Speaker 12: of skeptical.

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Speaker 6: If it was possible. If you're beginning to wonder what

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Speaker 6: exactly NLP is, that's normal. It can mean a lot

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Speaker 6: of different things and be used a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 6: Don't worry. We're going to explain it over the course

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Speaker 6: of the series, and we'll get into how some people

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Speaker 6: see it as the ultimate life hack, while others have

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Speaker 6: laundered it into extreme methods of controlling others.

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Speaker 4: For now, what you need to know is that NLP

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Speaker 4: formed the basis of Nancy's self help programs. In Nexium.

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Speaker 3: I saw many, many, many many people benefit.

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Speaker 4: And you are still proud of the program you created.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm absolutely proud of it. I'm not proud of

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Speaker 3: how everything ended up.

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Speaker 4: Nancy still believes in NLP deeply and uses it all

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Speaker 4: the time. It got her through prison.

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Speaker 3: I will tell you that the judge sentenced me to

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Speaker 3: go to a camp like Martha Stewart, and that's what

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Speaker 3: I thought was going to happen. And they sent me

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Speaker 3: to a maximum security female prison and it was a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: Nancy pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy charges for her role

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Speaker 4: in Nexium. She was sent to federal prison in West

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Speaker 4: Virginia in February of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 3: I was terrified because they were really mean. They were

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Speaker 3: very mean. I had no rights, like you have no

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Speaker 3: rights when you're there, and whatever they want to do

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Speaker 3: with you, they're going to do with you.

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Speaker 4: She says. This dark chapter of her life still haunts her.

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Speaker 4: When she's feeling down, she turns to NLP.

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Speaker 3: And when I tell you the worst moments, moments when

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Speaker 3: I believed I had been dealt a really unfair hand,

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Speaker 3: and I had been stuck in a horrible situation where

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Speaker 3: I was given no control, and I allowed myself to

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Speaker 3: start really suffering about it and feeling really victimized and miserable.

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Speaker 3: About a month in, I said to myself, what is

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Speaker 3: wrong with you? You have all of these tools, use them.

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Speaker 3: And I put myself in a good state. And I said,

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Speaker 3: you see, you know how to do this. It is

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Speaker 3: inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you

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Speaker 3: are making yourself miserable. You don't know when you're leaving,

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Speaker 3: you don't know how long you have to be here.

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Speaker 3: You don't know what's going to happen. But you have

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Speaker 3: control all of your state. Use it. And I did,

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Speaker 3: and I kept myself in a good state the whole

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Speaker 3: time I was stuck in prison.

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Speaker 6: Oooh, yikes. That was intense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I know maybe some listeners are thinking, can

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Speaker 4: we trust Nancy here? Is it possible she's hyping NLP

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Speaker 4: because she's looking for a comeback or a way to

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Speaker 4: talk about anything other than exium. Maybe maybe not.

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Speaker 6: I actually find Nancy credible here. She didn't have to

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Speaker 6: talk about using NLP on herself in prison. And what

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Speaker 6: I find really striking is that NLP clearly isn't just

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Speaker 6: some scammy hustle she used on other people. She used

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Speaker 6: it on herself. This is what saved her.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's saying she used NLP in the most high

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Speaker 4: stake situation of her whole life.

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Speaker 6: Did she explain though, how that actually worked, like which

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Speaker 6: NLP methods was she using.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's this concept in NLP. It has kind

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Speaker 4: of a CYBORGI name. It's called state control.

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Speaker 3: And what's so great about state control is that once

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Speaker 3: you learn that you can bring up an excited state,

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Speaker 3: it naturally follows that you can bring up any state

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Speaker 3: you want.

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Speaker 4: Nancy learned of these techniques from a man who was

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Speaker 4: incredibly influential in her life, NLP co founder Richard Bandler.

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Speaker 3: And what Richard Bamler taught me in that weekend, which

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Speaker 3: was the most amazing thing of all, was that I

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Speaker 3: had control over my emotional states. And I had no

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Speaker 3: excuse ever to be in a bad state ever unless

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Speaker 3: I was allowing it. And I will forever be grateful

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Speaker 3: to him for that.

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Speaker 4: You were using these techniques decades later when you went

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Speaker 4: to prison.

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Speaker 3: I'm still using them. My mother just died. I could

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Speaker 3: just sit here and cry with you. I'm so sad,

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Speaker 3: but that's not what we're here to do, so I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to and you don't have to see that.

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Speaker 4: So, just to give you some context, Nancy's mom died

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Speaker 4: three weeks before our interview. We were going to cancel,

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Speaker 4: but then she said she didn't want to, and when

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Speaker 4: we got to her house, she had cooked us this

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Speaker 4: whole lunch like black bean soup, So naturally when she

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Speaker 4: started crying in this moment, I felt really bad and

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Speaker 4: just wanted to give her a hug.

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Speaker 6: Okay, apologies, this is going to sound incredibly harsh, but

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Speaker 6: I have to ask, are we sure she was actually

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Speaker 6: losing control of her emotions. Didn't she just tell us

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Speaker 6: she can be wildly happy in prison? Could she also

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Speaker 6: make herself cry on cue?

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Speaker 4: Part of me did feel like I was watching a

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Speaker 4: talented actor. It was kind of whiplash her swing from

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Speaker 4: anguish to then calmly referencing her mother's death, and these

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Speaker 4: emotions were also visible in her her face and voice,

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Speaker 4: so it would just instantly shift. My take is that

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Speaker 4: these are Nancy's real emotions, but she has an insane

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Speaker 4: level of control about when to dial in to a

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Speaker 4: specific emotion and immediately shift to another. She says, anyone

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Speaker 4: can do this, it's the power of NLP.

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Speaker 6: As someone who does occasionally fall to pieces, this ability

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Speaker 6: sounds incredibly seductive. I would honestly love to have more

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Speaker 6: emotional control on command.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. But what's scarier is the idea that the

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Speaker 4: person teaching you these emotional control techniques could also use

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Speaker 4: them against you.

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Speaker 6: This is one of the truly disconcerting things about NLP.

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Speaker 6: Even the most seemingly helpful techniques can be used in

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Speaker 6: sinister ways. And because NLP masters pride themselves on controlling

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Speaker 6: their every little word and emotion, it's really hard to

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Speaker 6: know who to.

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Speaker 4: Trust, including the guy who started it all, Richard Bandler,

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Speaker 4: a man with a checkered.

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Speaker 6: Past and a crazy, spooky laugh.

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Speaker 4: To understand neurolinguistic programming, you have to understand its contradictory founder,

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Speaker 4: Richard Bandler. Sources have told us Bandler is a liar

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Speaker 4: and a drunk, and he has.

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Speaker 6: A history of making violent threats.

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Speaker 4: Although Jesse, you know he disagrees with and denies all

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Speaker 4: of these characterizations.

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Speaker 6: And yet here's the Bandler paradox. He spent his career

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Speaker 6: trying to help others, and he succeeded. Tons of clients

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Speaker 6: swear by him.

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Speaker 11: For example, I've had a lot of people that have

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Speaker 11: you know, that didn't believe that people could change quickly,

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Speaker 11: that went to a workshop and walked out and changed

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Speaker 11: the whole world about that.

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Speaker 6: As he explains in the seminar from the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 6: Bandler's whole thing was making people feel like they have

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Speaker 6: the power to fix their own problems. We collected as

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Speaker 6: many of the DVD box sets of his seminars as

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Speaker 6: we could find, watching and studying hours of tape. Here

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Speaker 6: he is in another series, Creating Therapeutic Change.

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Speaker 11: See, once you give people the resources, then you also

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Speaker 11: got to tell them it doesn't happen to them. Too

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Speaker 11: many people think that they come in and they go

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Speaker 11: hypnotize me and change me, and aw's gon No, that's

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Speaker 11: too easy. You don't deserve that. So you have to

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Speaker 11: earn that from me. You have to go out and

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Speaker 11: kick the shit out of your own problem.

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Speaker 8: First.

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Speaker 3: I'll give you the.

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Speaker 11: Basis to do it, but you've got to actively participate

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Speaker 11: in your own life.

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Speaker 6: NLP has spread throughout the world since it emerged in

440
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 6: Santa Cruz California in the nineteen seventies. Do a quick

441
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 6: search for therapists on psychology today and you'll find tons

442
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 6: of people with PhDs who include NLP in their list of.

443
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 4: Methods, and some therapy professionals even use NLP without disclosing it,

444
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 4: maybe without even realizing it. The inventor of one of

445
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 4: the most widely used therapies for trauma, EMDR, was very

446
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 4: influenced by NLP.

447
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 6: NLP changed over the decades, but the central promise remains

448
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 6: the same. These techniques will give you more power, this

449
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 6: Bandler explains is his goal for all his students.

450
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 11: Even though I do do it to them, I won't

451
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 11: tell them I did. I won't give them the satisfaction

452
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 11: of knowing, because I still want them, above and beyond

453
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 11: whatever change they make, to get actively involved in their

454
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 11: own life, actively involved in running their own brain.

455
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 4: NLP is all about getting out of your patterns, out

456
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: of your head, and creating more choice.

457
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 11: The reason they want you to come in and just

458
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 11: hypnotize me and make the problem go away is because

459
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 11: the reason the problem is there is because it mysteriously

460
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 11: has been controlling their life, and the missing piece is

461
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 11: their active participation.

462
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 6: Bandler's idea was that with NLP, you can achieve anything

463
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 6: you desire, really anything.

464
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 11: You must take as a presupposition that what they have

465
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 11: been doing in their life is absurd. If it is

466
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 11: not bringing them wealth, ecstasy, and happiness all at the

467
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 11: same time, it's got to be pretty absurd.

468
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 4: In the early nineteen nineties, Nancy attended a five day

469
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 4: seminar with Bandler in Pennsylvania. So you trained with Richard Bandler.

470
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: What was he like as a person?

471
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: I want to say he was impressive in every way,

472
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 3: positive and negative, and his skills were amazing, and at

473
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 3: the same time he would devalue them by calling it

474
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: that shit.

475
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 4: Nancy was paying one thousand dollars to learn that shit,

476
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 4: and while she was impressed with the techniques, she found

477
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 4: Bandler himself pretty off putting.

478
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 3: Yes, I was a little horrified by him at first.

479
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 6: I was.

480
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: I mean, if I'm gonna be honest, you know that

481
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: I have deep respect for him. I just told you

482
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: he helps me trem ment. I think he's a genius,

483
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: but I was a little shocked at how unprofessional he was.

484
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: He would just show up in like his clothes often

485
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: looked like he had been sleeping in them for three

486
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: or four nights before he showed up in them.

487
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 4: This is one of the many things that intrigued me

488
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: about Bandler. At NLP's height, he was teaching corporate success

489
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 4: techniques to executives. But the guy's own life was kind

490
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: of a mess. I mean, he was kind of an

491
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: unrepentant recreational drug user, right.

492
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of his drug use. I was aware

493
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 3: of his alcohol use, because he did that quite openly.

494
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything like that. I heard about it,

495
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: but I didn't see it.

496
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 4: Nancy told me this one crazy story about Bandler where

497
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 4: it seemed like he could kind of control her mind

498
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 4: and manipulate her into doing something she would never normally do.

499
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: After training, he would go to the bar and drink

500
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: a lot with everybody. Didn't seem to get drunk, but

501
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: he could consume an awful lot of alcohol. It was impressive.

502
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 4: One night, Nancy and some people were having drinks after

503
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: their NLP seminar, and Bandler was there.

504
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 3: And we were sitting together, and he wanted to go somewhere,

505
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: and I had watched him drink several several is a

506
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: thought for me. It's not three or four or five

507
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: or six, even ten several is more than ten martinis.

508
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: And he wanted to go someplace. And I had just

509
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: gotten a brand new car, and he asked me if

510
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: we could go in my car, and I said yes,

511
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 3: and he convinced me to let him drive you. I

512
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: don't know how he did that.

513
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: You let Richard Vandler drive your brand new Volvo ten

514
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 4: martinis in.

515
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: He didn't seem drunk.

516
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 4: This guy had something he did.

517
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: What did he have? I don't know. Well. Also, he

518
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 3: was Richard Bandler, and I was an NLP master practition

519
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: I wanted to be around him after it was all over,

520
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe he convinced me to do that.

521
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 6: Damn, Nancy goes hard.

522
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: It should be noted Bandler denies the story, but seriously,

523
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: this is a common Bandler motif. He somehow persuades people

524
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 4: to stand by him as he does extremely reckless, scary,

525
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 4: dangerous things. How'd this work on Nancy? Well, she thinks

526
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: it's NLP.

527
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: Well do you know anything about NLP anchoring? So, an

528
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: anchor is a stimulus and a response. They happen normally

529
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: in life. Like let's say you can be anchored to

530
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: your your father's angry voice or your mother's angry voice.

531
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: So if they use that tone, you just stopped as

532
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 3: a child, and that's an anchor.

533
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: Okay. So Banglor often modulates his voice, That's one part

534
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 4: of it.

535
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he played with his voice a lot, now that

536
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: I'm thinking back about him. He did different accs, did

537
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: different accents, he did different intonation patterns. He was very

538
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: good at that.

539
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 5: How much more fun could I be having? How much

540
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 5: better can it get? And as you keep that voice

541
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 5: and lock in your head, your unconscious mind can and

542
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 5: will confirm that you will make this a way of

543
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 5: life that you can and will enjoy.

544
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 4: As you can hear in his seminar Creating Therapeutic Change,

545
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 4: Bandler changes his voice on command.

546
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 5: And as you do so, take a deep breath and

547
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 5: begin to feel a good feeling start to spread throughout

548
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 5: your body. That's right, start to tingle all around.

549
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 4: Start to see these shifts in tones and accent. He's

550
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 4: trying to embed hypnotic commands with his voice.

551
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 5: So there, slowly, as you return back to the waking state,

552
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 5: that commitment becomes locked, firm and solid.

553
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 4: In NLP terms, that's called anchoring eight.

554
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 5: And the more your body will feel wonderful.

555
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 4: And as we were talking, Nancy was like, wait a second,

556
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 4: that's exactly what happened in the bar.

557
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 13: Oh took me.

558
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: He anchored you to his voice. That's what he was doing.

559
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: When he was doing that, he would get you in

560
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 3: a certain state, and then when he would use that

561
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: voice again, you would go back into that state.

562
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 5: Now, that's just a suggestion you will carry out and

563
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 5: follow utterly and completely.

564
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 4: The idea of anchoring is that you trigger an emotional

565
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: response or behavior in someone with a physical sensation squeezing

566
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: their wrist or using a sound like a bell or

567
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: a word said in a certain tone. First, you build

568
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 4: a heightened emotional state in your client or target.

569
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: In NLP, what they learned is that when you're having

570
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: an emotional state, it looks like a bell curve, you know,

571
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: up and around, and when the state is building, you're

572
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: going up, up, up, up, up up up with an

573
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: emotional state. At a certain point, the peeks out, meaning

574
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: that's the full state.

575
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 4: Once they reached full state, that's when you anchor Subscribe

576
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: now to mine game.

577
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 6: Subscribe now to mine game, Subscribe.

578
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 4: Now to mind games. It's kind of like training a dog.

579
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 4: But you're doing it with a person.

580
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 6: And that's allegedly how Bandler convinced Nancy to drive her

581
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 6: new car drunk. Isn't she an NLP wizard too?

582
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: Though?

583
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 6: How'd she not notice that? Do you think Nancy is

584
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 6: particularly susceptible to manipulation?

585
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly what she says. She told me she

586
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 4: has a gullible streak.

587
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: See I'm very gullible.

588
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, but she does really believe she was anchored.

589
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: Now I know what he did. I never could figure

590
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: out what he did. I was anchored to his voice.

591
00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 6: If that exists, that's an amazing power and amazingly dangerous.

592
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: I ask Nancy about that. Can NLP be used for

593
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 4: good or evil? Is it a neutral tool?

594
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: You know? When people ask me about that, one of

595
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: the things that I say is a knife in the

596
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife

597
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 3: in the hands of a murderer is a weapon. I

598
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: believe because I've worked with behavior change so much, and

599
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: even when people want to change sometimes it's hard. I

600
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: believe that for the most part, you have to have

601
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: very bad intent to try to figure out ways of

602
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: using these things negatively. But is it possible. I'm not

603
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: going to say it's impossible, because you know, you can

604
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 3: anchor in fear states in people easily.

605
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 6: Uh, fear anchors. This is sounding not so neutral. When

606
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 6: people are afraid, they're more compliant.

607
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and fear was an explicit part of Richard Bandler's therapy.

608
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 4: He scared people into fixing themselves.

609
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: You know, he did threaten punch me in the face.

610
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 6: That was actually turned out to be a very good intervention.

611
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 6: You know, it helped me to have one of the

612
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 6: most profound experiences of my life. That's Don McCormick, a

613
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 6: retired psych professor who knew Bandler and Santa Cruz during

614
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 6: the early days of NLP. He was trying to learn

615
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 6: a new technique but kept getting stuck. It was only

616
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 6: when Bandler thraned to punch him that suddenly Dawn got it.

617
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 6: There are even more stories like this. One that Bandler

618
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 6: told repeatedly was about a schizophrenic patient who thought he

619
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 6: was Jesus Christ. Bandler got the patient to build a cross.

620
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 6: He brought in the heavy wood beams and giant sized nails.

621
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 6: Then he had the guy stretch out on the cross

622
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 6: to measure him to make sure it was right. We

623
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 6: read about this in a book and honestly don't really

624
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 6: know what to make of it or what the patient's

625
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 6: reaction was. We do know many of Bandler's most dramatic

626
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 6: therapies featured threats of violence. He denies this, but it's

627
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 6: been widely reported that at this one seminar in nineteen

628
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 6: eighty four, a client was trying to work on some

629
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 6: problematic aspect of his life and he made the mistake

630
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,959
Speaker 6: of joking to Bandler that the only thing that could

631
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 6: possibly get him to change would be a loaded gun.

632
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 6: So Bandler whipped one out.

633
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 4: Because in some versions of the story, Bandler has a

634
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 4: loaded gun with him.

635
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 6: Naturally, and the guy's into it at first. He knows

636
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 6: Bandler and his aggressive antics, and he even says, well,

637
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 6: I'd have to believe you'd actually use it on me

638
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 6: for it to help. So Bandler's like challenge accepted. He

639
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 6: tells the therapist, you have no idea how nuts I am.

640
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 6: I don't have to kill you, I just have to

641
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 6: wound you. Apparently that did the trick. The guy tells Bandler, huh, okay,

642
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 6: mission accomplished. I can change that part of my life

643
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 6: and Bandler's like, yep, I know, because I would have

644
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 6: shot you. By now, it should be clarified that Bandler

645
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 6: says he used a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun,

646
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 6: not a gun itself.

647
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 4: I have no idea what to make of this story,

648
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 4: Like what the fuck I mean? I honestly also am

649
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 4: like did it really happen? But also okay, let's say

650
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 4: it did and it supposedly worked.

651
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 6: That's the thing. Even years later, the guy continued to

652
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 6: tell reporters that Bandler had helped him. In fact, most

653
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 6: of the people I've spoken to have said that when

654
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 6: Bandler pulls these kind of hardcore changer I'll kill you

655
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 6: sort of cures, He's just getting in there and doing

656
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 6: what needs to be done.

657
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 14: He would sometimes use threats to get people to do

658
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 14: something or to or sometimes just even losing his temper.

659
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 14: So I had to him threatened me before.

660
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 3: But I think what.

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00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 14: Well Richard, out of the goodness of his heart, would

662
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 14: have the compassion to hold a gun to the side

663
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 14: of a student's head to provide the motivating factor that

664
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 14: would allow them to make a change.

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00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 6: Bandler didn't just intimidate students. According to court documents, he

666
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 6: also threatened his employees with violence.

667
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 11: Hey, push it to the limits. Man, go for the

668
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 11: throat at this point, because this is exactly what's going

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00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 11: on in their life. They aren't choosing, and you want

670
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 11: it to become a magnanimous choice.

671
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 13: One that's fairly obvious.

672
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 11: Which direction they're going to go in? A positive future

673
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 11: or shitty future? What's it going to be?

674
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 6: And Bandler pushed it to the limits in his own life.

675
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 4: Were you around when he got accused of murder?

676
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: No? I think it was before that was to talk

677
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: about it, they used to say, three people went in

678
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: the room, two came out alive.

679
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, you heard that right. Richard Bandler stood trial for

680
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 4: murder in nineteen eighty seven and was acquitted. Oh interesting,

681
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 4: you joined up afterwards? Did you know about that? During

682
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 4: his murder trial, including in his own court testimony, the

683
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 4: whole world learned that Bandler was a heavy cocaine user

684
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: and involved with shady characters like Santa Cruz drug dealers.

685
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 4: Even after Bandler was found not guilty, the trial became

686
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 4: part of his bad boy loose cannon mystique.

687
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 5: Now this is the kind of subtle stuff that I'm

688
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 5: trying to get you guys to do. All right, it's

689
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 5: none of this sitting around and going and how do

690
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 5: you feel about that? You know, are going into a

691
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 5: meeting and going, uh.

692
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 11: Well, do you see any good prospects for the future?

693
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 11: Fuck that jam them in their head. You know, if

694
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 11: I want people work for me to have a positive

695
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 11: view of the future, I'm gonna take it and put

696
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 11: it on a brick and shove it right.

697
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 5: In their skull so they don't miss it. I sort

698
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 5: of the sledgehammer approach to things.

699
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 4: Listening to Richard Bandler his sledgehammer approach to healing. It's

700
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 4: what's so provocative about NLP, the grand claims and the

701
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 4: seemingly absurdly simple yet weirdly effective techniques, and then there's

702
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 4: the whole if you know, you know, aspect of the thing.

703
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 4: It was shocking to me that NLP was so unknown

704
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: and yet so relevant. It's literally in every meditation app

705
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: I've seen, especially as wellness pervades so many aspects of

706
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 4: our lives, and we have this collective obsession with self

707
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 4: optimization and treating our brains as computers to be reprogrammed,

708
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 4: NLP seems more relevant than ever.

709
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 6: It's that pervasiveness that sent us down this road of

710
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 6: trying to figure out where it comes from, in part

711
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 6: through the story of one of its central figures, Richard Bandler,

712
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 6: brilliant outside the box healer.

713
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 5: They wouldn't give me a license to do therapy because

714
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 5: I'm not qualified. I think that's wonderful.

715
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 13: He tries to get you to relive trauma. I try

716
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 13: to get people to stop thinking about it so much.

717
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 13: My technique's focus on getting people to take control of

718
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 13: their mind.

719
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 6: Or Slick Hustler, who sold pseudoscientific life hacks to the

720
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 6: US military and inspired hundreds of imitators.

721
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 13: It spread all over the planet. It's everywhere. I'm translated

722
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 13: into dozens of languages.

723
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 6: We're deeply skeptical of gurus, but we want to separate

724
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 6: what's legit from the jargon and empty promises.

725
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 4: So we're going to interview sales with us.

726
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 10: I gave her some suggestions to be sexually.

727
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 6: Aroused pick up artists.

728
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 10: She looked at me and she said, Mondongo gun numb

729
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 10: and I said, that's because you have a message for me.

730
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 10: What's your message? And then she leaned over and numb

731
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 10: tongue said something about wanting.

732
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 9: To pleasure me.

733
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 4: And NLP's most famous practitioner, Tony Robbins.

734
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 7: Tony Robbins doing all this, he said he's the best

735
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 7: NLP guy in the world, which I did, said I wasn't.

736
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 7: I challenged him. I said, let's have an ALP off.

737
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 7: You give me your worst patient and we'll see who

738
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 7: can hale them quicker. I said, I'm happy to do it,

739
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 7: and I want every time I did.

740
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 4: All of whom credit NLP as the basis of their success.

741
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 4: So do some accused cult leaders or are they innocent victims?

742
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: Well? I knew that it was cultish and weird, but

743
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: I liked it for all of those reasons.

744
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 6: We'll even test NLP on ourselves. I don't know what

745
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 6: I expected to get exactly, but what I got were

746
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 6: some pretty specific images from my childhood. This is wild

747
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 6: and on you, the listener, with your consent.

748
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 4: A whole lot of NLP is pretty shady, but some

749
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 4: of it is real. We're going to dig into those

750
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 4: parts and the science of hypnosis behind them, And don't worry,

751
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 4: we will get to the murder.

752
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 6: Oh and we'll even hear from the man himself, Richard Bambler.

753
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 13: This is what we referred to as a hit job

754
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 13: and I find this very fucking offensive.

755
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 6: Wow.

756
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 4: Richard mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with

757
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 4: iHeart Podcasts. The series is created and hosted by me

758
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 4: Alice Hines and Zoe Lascas. It's produced by writer Alsop

759
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 4: and Dara Lukpotts, edited by Kate Osborne, Editorial consulting from

760
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 4: Adiza Egan, original composition and mixing by Steve Boone, fact

761
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 4: checking by Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope.

762
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 6: Our executive producers are Ozwaloshan Mangesha Tikador, and Kate Osborne

763
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 6: from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina Norbl and Nikki

764
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 6: Etour