WEBVTT - Michele MacNeill 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.680 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.120 Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Yvette Genti Lay. 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.519 And I'm Rasha Pecuerero. So this week we are talking 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.400 about the murder of Michelle McNeil. This was a shocking 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:44.880 case that involved a perpetrator who weaved a huge web 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:49.000 of deceit and crime that destroyed basically every single person 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.040 that he touched. And that is just a small snippet 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:54.800 of the story. Today, we'll be breaking all of this 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.440 down with our guest m William Phelps, who many of 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.400 you may know, an author and an investigative journalist known 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.240 for the podcast Paper Ghosts and crossing the Line with 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.600 m William Phelps. But first, our producer Trevor is going 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.160 to take us through today's case. 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.240 Was Martin McNeil about to get away with murder? That's 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.920 what two unlikely accusers believe his daughters. They say he 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.760 killed their mother, and they've spent the past six years 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:24.640 trying to prove it. 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.280 We did try to warn her, and there was no 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:31.000 talking to It was like he had his grips around her. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:33.320 He had total control. 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.320 Ever since the day my mom died, I was concerned 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.560 that my father killed her. I've been fighting to get 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.360 justice for this case ever since then. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.720 Michelle McNeil was a fifty year old woman who died 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.960 under mysterious circumstances in two thousand and seven on April 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:56.040 second of that year. She'd had cosmetic surgery a facelift, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.280 and by all accounts, it went well, but then kings 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.800 took a turn for the tragic. Her husband of thirty years, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.600 Martin McNeil, was a physician, and had asked the surgeon 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.679 to prescribe a variety of medications that wouldn't normally be necessary, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.720 and on April eleventh, she was found dead, fully clothed, 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.760 in her bathtub. Investigators initially chalked her death up to 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.960 a heart attack, but later toxicology reports would reveal something 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:29.400 much more nefarious. Michelle's children had suspected their father was responsible. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.240 There were rumors that Martin was having an affair, and 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.919 soon years of wrongdoing and deceit would come to light. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.960 Martin McNeil's reported crimes started back in the nineteen seventies, 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.000 when he forged thousands of dollars worth of checks in 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.639 the state of California. That's also when he started scamming 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.680 the Veterans Association for Disability Payments, hauling off more than 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.320 one hundred thousand dollars over three decades. During this time period, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.440 he and Michelle had met at the Church of Latter 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:04.280 Day Saint and quickly eloped. Soon after, Martin was briefly 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.600 jailed in a separate case of forgery, theft, and fraud. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.040 In nineteen eighty four, he landed a residency in a 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.200 New York hospital after falsifying transcripts to get into medical school. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.040 In two thousand, he resigned from a medical residency at 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.680 Brigham Young Health Clinic in Provo, Utah, after being accused 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.680 of having an affair with a patient, and in fact, 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.639 he reportedly had a series of affairs, and one girlfriend 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.080 later reported that Martin had told her he'd killed his 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.320 own brother by drowning him in a bathtub. After Martin 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.560 began an affair with a woman named Gipsy Willis, he 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:45.360 became increasingly verbally abusive with Michelle. Martin wanted a divorce, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.960 but Michelle, a devout Mormon, wanted to save their marriage, 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.080 and that's when in two thousand and seven, Martin proposed 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.800 that she get facelift surgery, and Michelle, who by all 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.040 accounts didn't need the surgery, agreed to do it. Martin 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.120 then demanded that the doctors prescribe an unusually heavy duty 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.160 cocktail of drugs for Michelle, and he got his way. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.280 The day after she was discharged, their daughter, Alexis, found 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.680 Michelle unresponsive. She managed to briefly awaken her mother, but 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.719 she had to go back to school. Before she did, 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.440 her mother told her, quote, if anything happens to me, 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.400 make sure it was not your dad. End quote. And 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.760 a few days later, on April eleventh, Alexis got a 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.640 phone call from her father telling her that her younger 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:38.560 adopted sister had found Michelle face down in their bathtub, unresponsive. 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.240 It took months for Michelle's adult children to convince authorities 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.080 to investigate Martin McNeil, and it took years for Martin 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.800 to finally get a trial where He was eventually convicted 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.160 of murder and after just over two years of serving 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.520 his sentence, Martin took his own life while in prison. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.359 And so who was Michelle McNeil, what actually led to 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.840 her suspicious death and how does the story reveal a 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:13.400 darker method of partner abuse involving deception, manipulation and drugs. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.400 All right, we are back and we have got a 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.680 very special guest joining us today to talk about the 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.440 case of Michelle McNeil. You may know him from the 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.680 hit true crime podcast Paper Ghost, or you maybe read 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.880 one of his many books including We Thought We Knew 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.160 You or Don't Tell a Soul, just to name a few. 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.600 We're talking, of course about em William Phelps. 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.080 So welcome, Thank you for having me. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.440 I'm humble by it and I love your show and 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.320 listen and yeah, it's great to be on. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.280 Well, thanks Matthew. I guess first of all, we always 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.720 like to ask our guests like, how did you get 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.000 into the true crime genre? Tell us like did you 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.080 search it out or did it just happen? Tell us 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.080 a little bit about yourself and how that all came about. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.520 That's an interesting story because the day before I was 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.359 a true crime author. I didn't know I was becoming 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.719 a true crime author. You know, I was a journalist. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.040 I wrote about politics, music, everything, and then my agent 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.080 was like, listen, if you really want to make a 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.640 go with this, you should write a book. So I 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.679 was covering the story of a nurse in Northampton, Massachusetts 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.919 who had killed a bunch of people and she was 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.880 on trial. So I pitched that. I got a deal, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.080 and I thought I was writing a book about a 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.920 bunch of different people, interesting people, one of whom was 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.080 a serial killer. And I published that book and then 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:49.920 all of a sudden, I was a true crime guy 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.960 and that's all they wanted. The book was kind of successful, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.280 so that's what they wanted, and I followed it. And 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.359 from that book, you know, TV came. They wanted to 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.919 interview me on different shows for that book. So I 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.240 got into TV that way, and then I continue to 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:10.320 write books, continue to do lots of TV executive produce, produce, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.000 create TV shows, you know, all in the true crime space, documentaries, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:20.280 and then of course podcast companies came calling, and you know, 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:24.080 here I am. I partnered with iHeart about three years 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.240 ago and it's been great. I mean, they're a great 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:28.920 company for what I want to do. 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.880 They really are iHeart. I mean, we're part of the 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:37.920 same o'honna, Matthew, the same family. Yeah, yeah, so I 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.000 love that. I think you know, Yvett and I stumbled 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.320 into true crime just because of our lineage, and you 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.720 know who we're related to. But it's what you do 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:48.960 with it when you have that voice given to you, right, 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.200 So of course you know, today we are talking about 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.240 Michelle McNeil, and I would love to know, Matthew, what 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.320 was your first impression on this particular case. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.920 My first impression when I looked at this case was 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.440 the LDS connection number one. I see a lot of 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.040 that in my work. I see a lot of the control, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:17.600 course of control, almost cult like behavior. Not all LDS, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.040 of course, but I do see an amount of it. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.760 I see in a lot of these stories we cover. 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.040 I mean, I just see a woman who as a 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:32.199 kid was an a student, the golden child, if you will. 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.320 She played the violin, she was a cheerleader, she acted 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.000 homecoming queen. It goes on and on and on, right, right, 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.480 So you know, we see these people a lot of 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.840 times who are It's like this person had so much 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:50.640 to offer humanity, and some buddy came along and took 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.319 that away from not only the world, but her inner circle. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:54.840 You know. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:09:01.560 So my first impressions were just as they generally are, sadness, yeah, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.720 and a lot of frustration that no one saw what 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:06.840 was going on here. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.480 As this thing builds, you know, there's. 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.640 A lot going on, a lot of red flags that 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:13.520 were missed. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.079 A lot of red flags, a lot a lot of flags. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.920 And you know, and one of the first things I 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.080 want to talk about is the major red flag. Who 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.160 is Martin, right, Martin McNeil. And the thing that is 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.080 so it's just mind blowing to me is that this 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:34.920 man was able to forge like documents for government, for 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:41.120 job qualifications, for medical and no one like Bada DENI like, 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.080 how how do we think that he got away with this? 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.280 Like for me, you know, being a biracial woman, like 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.320 I think about if it was a black man or 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.040 a Latino like I feel like they would have been 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.560 like stopped in their tracks, you know, instantly. But this 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.800 guy just seemed to get away with it. Do we 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.520 think it was because you know, he was a veteran 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:01.760 to start with. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:02.800 I mean, I don't know. 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.760 It's interesting because you mentioned the racial part of it, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:08.920 and you know he's a white LDS guy. It's like, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:10.840 you know, who's going to question that guy? 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:11.160 Right? 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.400 I mean, and we should you know, you know, you 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.600 should take everything out of it, right, and you could 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.720 just look at the behavior, right, and things he did 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.760 that the amount of prescriptions he was he was forging, 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:22.520 I mean, he was a. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:23.079 Doctor, right. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.680 So when I look at everything he's done in totality, right, 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.679 it's almost like you say that he was given a 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.520 free pass and no one questioned what he was doing. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.880 And if someone just had taken even a second look 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.240 at what he was doing bank, right, I mean you 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.440 know they'd opened up a Pandora's box of criminal behavior. 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.679 Really exactly. I think you just hit the nail on 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.200 the head, Matthew, like the Pandora's box of criminal behavior. 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:53.520 Right. 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.080 And you were saying earlier about like red flags. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.520 I mean, we're talking about a guy, right from what 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.400 I read, he attempted to kill his mother and allegedly 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:04.199 killed his brother. 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.600 Right, allegedly, yes, who was. 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.040 Found faced down in a bathtub, which is an important 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:16.640 part of everything, right, absolutely, so, Prior previous behavior is 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.520 a good indication of behavior in the future for people 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.760 like this. Now, when we come to what you were 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:29.679 talking about, forging checks and all this manipulation, you start 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.359 to head down the road of a sociopath. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.040 Right. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.320 And the thing we can never forget about a sociopath, 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.120 but more so about a psychopath, is that we can't 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.360 underestimate how charming they are. 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:46.080 Ah. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.520 Yes, sometimes we'll get pulled into the web of they're 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.560 charm and they won't even know it. I interviewed a 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.840 serial killer for nine years, and going into that, a 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.200 forensic psychologist friend of mine told me, Look, you invite 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.680 the devil into your house, you better be ready to 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.800 dine with him because if not, he's going to get 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:09.600 inside your head. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:10.800 Yeah. 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.560 And throughout that whole time, I mean ninety eight percent 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.840 of the time, I kept I was m William Phelps. 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:18.839 I was never Matthew. I was M William Phelps the 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.600 whole time, Right, I was. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:21.400 That guy persona. 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.440 Yes, But there were a couple of times where I 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.640 fell right in with him, not in evil things he 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:29.959 was talking about, but just like, hey, what are you 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:30.559 doing tonight? 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.400 Phelps? When we get off the phone, or. 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:34.520 When I went to go visit him in prison, Hey, 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.319 where are you headed now, well, I'm headed to No. 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:38.440 No, no, you're. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.000 Right, you're not friend, right, you're not friends? Yeah. Yeah. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.800 So when we talk about Martin, we talk about the 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.720 same type individual. I'm not saying he's a psychopath, but 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.480 he clearly is heading down the road of a sociopath. 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.000 You know, he was this supposedly right, this charming guy 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.000 who you know, Michelle loved him, but at the same time, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.679 he was having an affair with this gypsy Willis who 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.520 was the nanny, right, And we always talk about this 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.960 a lot, like when women know, like Michelle knew what 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:36.440 was happening, but she still chose to stay. We always think, 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.920 from our perspective, well, why don't they just leave? Why 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.720 didn't they get out? Why are they staying with these people? 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.160 Why do you think she didn't after all the things 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:48.360 that he was doing. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.679 In these situations? And I spoke to a really great 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.800 expert on this, Laura Richards. Hear, what we're seeing in 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.840 this relationship between the two of them is course of control. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:13:59.680 Without a doubt. 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.600 The numbers say this, a woman in a coercive control 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.199 marriage or relationship who's being abused, it takes her six 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.320 to seven times to leave meaning she she goes, she 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:18.440 comes back, she goes, if she's alive to leave at. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:19.080 The seventh time. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:19.800 Wow. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.600 Wow, So in this case we see no. So to 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.400 answer your question, she was probably scared more than anything 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:28.520 else to leave. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.200 And she had children. You know, they had so many 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.560 children as well, Right, she had children. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.080 And you throw an LDS into it. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.960 LDS guilt into it, and the elder's probably telling her 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:40.840 you have to stay. 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:42.680 That's your duty as a Christian. 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.280 You have to stay. So she's getting it from all 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:46.640 ends here, right, and. 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.080 She's scared right, right, And that's what we were talking 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.600 about earlier, like you don't break up the marriage in 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.600 this particular religion, in the Mormon religion, right, you just 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:57.480 you're not supposed to supposedly. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.000 I mean she caught him, you know, looking at pornography 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.320 and he threatened to kill her and himself with a 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:07.280 butcher knife. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.160 Right, So this is. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.840 The kind of atmosphere she's living under. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:13.280 Yeah, not pattern. 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:14.200 Right. 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:18.200 I am almost one hundred percent sure. And I'll say allegedly, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:20.840 but I am one hundred percent sure. He said to 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.600 her many times, you leave, I'll find you, I'll kill you, 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.480 or I'll kill these kids. I guarantee. He said that 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.680 there's no doubt. Yeah, and so that's what she's living under. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.360 Plus he's he's a doctor, right, so he's got medications 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.720 that he's giving to her without her knowledge. I would assume, 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.120 you know, so he's really really controlling this. 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.800 Woman, right. I was going to say he's a master manipulator. 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:46.840 Absolutely. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:54.160 So he somehow convinces his stunningly gorgeous wife, Michelle. She's, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.360 by all accounts, this beautiful woman. She you know, is 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.960 a model at one point, I believe in just so beautiful. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.960 But he convinces her to get a facelift, and that's 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.960 part of the manipulation, right, So she agrees and is like, Okay, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:11.440 I'll get this surgery. And then that's when Martin asked 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.640 Michelle's doctor to prescribe her a laundry list of medications, 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.280 which eventually ends up killing her. So, you know, my 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:26.040 question for you, Matthew, like, how cunning do we feel 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.400 that this was, you know, compared to most of the 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.720 other true crime cases that you cover. I mean, have 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.800 you seen this a lot? 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.480 Yeah, this is pretty classic stuff that he's doing. Sometimes 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.880 in life, we run into people and we don't realize 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.600 it but I call them soul suckers. They just start 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.960 sucking the soul out of your life. You don't even 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.520 realize what's happening. You're caught in the spiral. There's a 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.400 little bit of codependency on your part, right, So you're 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:02.000 in it, right, and you're scared, and they are using 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:08.360 the absolute best manipulation tactics that they have in their arsenal. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.000 To control you. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:14.639 Like this cosmetic surgery, the facelift. She decides to do it, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.520 but then he first wants her to lower her blood. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:18.960 Pressure and then lose some weight. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:25.760 Right, so these are more tactics to tell her you're ugly, 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.080 you're overweight, and you need to do these things if 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.680 you want me to treat you better. Yeah, so this 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:37.280 is all classic manipulation course of control on his part. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.080 It's very classic. I've seen it many times. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.600 I've written about it a dozen times, probably in forty 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:44.359 something books. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:45.120 Yeah. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.160 I always like to look for the light in the darkness. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.080 And the thing about her children, like they spoke. 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.440 Out about him, there's the light. 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:56.720 There is a light. You know. 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.760 They were so courageous and so brave and they knew it. 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:00.960 You know. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.719 It's like when you get that feeling, right, that intuitive 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.879 feeling that something is not right, and they took initiative, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:09.240 you know, to do the right thing. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.600 I find that to be very courageous on their part 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.000 and very much a sense of love. You know, they 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.560 it's love. You know, we're going to try to bust 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.520 through all this with love. 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:24.119 Yeah. 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.359 So many people don't do that today. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:26.880 You know. 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.280 It's it's so much easier to love, right, it's harder 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:31.680 to hate. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:32.600 Wow. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.439 Yeah, yes, yeah, you know with a guy like this, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.520 from just being on the outside, they knew, not even 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.240 being in the inner part of their marriage, just on 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.479 the outside, they knew this guy was a steamroller just 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.120 running through their mother's. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.159 Life and eventually he was gonna take that life. And 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:52.880 they knew that. They sensed that for sure. 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:53.919 Yeah. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.280 I love that you said that, Matthew. Though, like you know, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.199 they chose love like and I can only imagine and 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.600 how conflicted they were because this man was their father. 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.520 You know, he wasn't the biological father to all of 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:07.479 the children. I believe some of them were adopted and 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.520 you know, some were biologically his. But it is it 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.159 is easier to love, and you know, even after all 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.520 of that, you know, their mother essentially being killed and 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:25.560 murdered just a little bit after that. And I'm not 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.040 going to go into details because I'm the one. I can't. 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.920 I can't say all the nitty gritty, gross details. I'm 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.159 sure that you can, Matthew, but I cannot. But I 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.119 do know that, you know, Martin ended up sexually assaulting 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.920 one of his daughters just a short time after Michelle 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.040 was killed. It was his daughter Alexis, and she I 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.680 think she was home right before she was herself going 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.919 back to medical school. She was on break and she 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.000 woke up to him sexually assaulting her. I'm not even 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.199 going to go into the nitty gritty. And this is 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.880 what Alexis said that her father, Martin said to her 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.040 when she woke up and discovered what was happening. He said, quote, oh, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.679 I'm sorry, I thought you were your mother. End quote. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:15.800 Like how disgustingly gross is That makes me stick to 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:16.320 my stomach. 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.840 I mean, he is a predator, But just the fact, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.639 like what we were talking about earlier, you know, just 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.359 that had happened to her, and that she still had 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.679 the strength and the courage to speak up. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:30.880 Right, She wasn't afraid of him. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:32.160 She wasn't afraid. 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.720 You know, this type of behavior, it tells me a lot, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.080 the absolute eu brisk, the absolute gaul, tells me a 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:45.320 couple of things that he's probably done it before. Hmmm, right, okay, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.520 this is not his first rodeo with this, right right. 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.080 And we know when. 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.280 I say we in my profession, we know that a 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.800 guy like Martin, his type of behavior, it never de escalates, It. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.600 All escalates, I see, always gets worse. 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.639 Yeah, so if we look back, we see, you know, 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.720 he attempted to kill mom. He allegedly killed his brother 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:11.440 in a. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.760 Bathtub, which is how Michelle was found as well. 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.960 Prior behavior good indication of later behavior. So she's dead 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.000 and now he's going to start to openly sexually abuse 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:30.800 the children. So yeah, this is classic, classic sociopath behavior. 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.040 I mean, I did read some stuff about him perhaps 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.680 being diagnosed mentally ill early on, but I've not seen 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:42.320 those reports, the actual psychological reports, and I'd love to 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.800 see those. I'd love to see those, because a sociopath 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.600 can easily manipulate a psychologist into believe. 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.400 In that they have a mental illness. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:53.800 Yeah, they have a mental illness. That's all part of 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.160 the you know the game. So unless I see those 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.920 psychology reports, I'm not believing that he was mentally you know, 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:02.280 I'm not buying it. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.480 You know, we do so many of these cases. 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.920 And the thing that is so frustrating about a lot 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.920 of these cases is that it always takes not always, 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.000 but a lot of the time. It takes so very 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:40.600 long for these predators, murders, you know, to actually do 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.280 the time. And for I mean for Martin, it took 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.960 six years for him to finally go on trial for 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.960 the murder of Michelle, Like why is this so common? 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.560