1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Yvette Genti Lay. 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 3: And I'm Rasha Pecuerero. So this week we are talking 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 3: about the murder of Michelle McNeil. This was a shocking 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 3: case that involved a perpetrator who weaved a huge web 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: of deceit and crime that destroyed basically every single person 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: that he touched. And that is just a small snippet 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: of the story. Today, we'll be breaking all of this 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 3: down with our guest m William Phelps, who many of 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: you may know, an author and an investigative journalist known 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: for the podcast Paper Ghosts and crossing the Line with 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: m William Phelps. But first, our producer Trevor is going 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 3: to take us through today's case. 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 4: Was Martin McNeil about to get away with murder? That's 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 4: what two unlikely accusers believe his daughters. They say he 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 4: killed their mother, and they've spent the past six years 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 4: trying to prove it. 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: We did try to warn her, and there was no 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: talking to It was like he had his grips around her. 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 3: He had total control. 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: Ever since the day my mom died, I was concerned 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: that my father killed her. I've been fighting to get 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: justice for this case ever since then. 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Michelle McNeil was a fifty year old woman who died 30 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: under mysterious circumstances in two thousand and seven on April 31 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: second of that year. She'd had cosmetic surgery a facelift, 32 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: and by all accounts, it went well, but then kings 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: took a turn for the tragic. Her husband of thirty years, 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: Martin McNeil, was a physician, and had asked the surgeon 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: to prescribe a variety of medications that wouldn't normally be necessary, 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: and on April eleventh, she was found dead, fully clothed, 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: in her bathtub. Investigators initially chalked her death up to 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: a heart attack, but later toxicology reports would reveal something 39 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: much more nefarious. Michelle's children had suspected their father was responsible. 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: There were rumors that Martin was having an affair, and 41 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: soon years of wrongdoing and deceit would come to light. 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: Martin McNeil's reported crimes started back in the nineteen seventies, 43 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: when he forged thousands of dollars worth of checks in 44 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: the state of California. That's also when he started scamming 45 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: the Veterans Association for Disability Payments, hauling off more than 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars over three decades. During this time period, 47 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: he and Michelle had met at the Church of Latter 48 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: Day Saint and quickly eloped. Soon after, Martin was briefly 49 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: jailed in a separate case of forgery, theft, and fraud. 50 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, he landed a residency in a 51 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: New York hospital after falsifying transcripts to get into medical school. 52 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: In two thousand, he resigned from a medical residency at 53 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: Brigham Young Health Clinic in Provo, Utah, after being accused 54 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: of having an affair with a patient, and in fact, 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: he reportedly had a series of affairs, and one girlfriend 56 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: later reported that Martin had told her he'd killed his 57 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: own brother by drowning him in a bathtub. After Martin 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: began an affair with a woman named Gipsy Willis, he 59 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: became increasingly verbally abusive with Michelle. Martin wanted a divorce, 60 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: but Michelle, a devout Mormon, wanted to save their marriage, 61 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: and that's when in two thousand and seven, Martin proposed 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: that she get facelift surgery, and Michelle, who by all 63 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: accounts didn't need the surgery, agreed to do it. Martin 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: then demanded that the doctors prescribe an unusually heavy duty 65 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: cocktail of drugs for Michelle, and he got his way. 66 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: The day after she was discharged, their daughter, Alexis, found 67 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: Michelle unresponsive. She managed to briefly awaken her mother, but 68 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: she had to go back to school. Before she did, 69 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: her mother told her, quote, if anything happens to me, 70 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: make sure it was not your dad. End quote. And 71 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: a few days later, on April eleventh, Alexis got a 72 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: phone call from her father telling her that her younger 73 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: adopted sister had found Michelle face down in their bathtub, unresponsive. 74 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: It took months for Michelle's adult children to convince authorities 75 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: to investigate Martin McNeil, and it took years for Martin 76 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: to finally get a trial where He was eventually convicted 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: of murder and after just over two years of serving 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: his sentence, Martin took his own life while in prison. 79 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: And so who was Michelle McNeil, what actually led to 80 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: her suspicious death and how does the story reveal a 81 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: darker method of partner abuse involving deception, manipulation and drugs. 82 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: All right, we are back and we have got a 83 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: very special guest joining us today to talk about the 84 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: case of Michelle McNeil. You may know him from the 85 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: hit true crime podcast Paper Ghost, or you maybe read 86 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: one of his many books including We Thought We Knew 87 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 2: You or Don't Tell a Soul, just to name a few. 88 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: We're talking, of course about em William Phelps. 89 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 5: So welcome, Thank you for having me. 90 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 6: I'm humble by it and I love your show and 91 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 6: listen and yeah, it's great to be on. 92 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: Well, thanks Matthew. I guess first of all, we always 93 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: like to ask our guests like, how did you get 94 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: into the true crime genre? Tell us like did you 95 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: search it out or did it just happen? Tell us 96 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: a little bit about yourself and how that all came about. 97 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 6: That's an interesting story because the day before I was 98 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 6: a true crime author. I didn't know I was becoming 99 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 6: a true crime author. You know, I was a journalist. 100 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 6: I wrote about politics, music, everything, and then my agent 101 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 6: was like, listen, if you really want to make a 102 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 6: go with this, you should write a book. So I 103 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,679 Speaker 6: was covering the story of a nurse in Northampton, Massachusetts 104 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 6: who had killed a bunch of people and she was 105 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 6: on trial. So I pitched that. I got a deal, 106 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 6: and I thought I was writing a book about a 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 6: bunch of different people, interesting people, one of whom was 108 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 6: a serial killer. And I published that book and then 109 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 6: all of a sudden, I was a true crime guy 110 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 6: and that's all they wanted. The book was kind of successful, 111 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 6: so that's what they wanted, and I followed it. And 112 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 6: from that book, you know, TV came. They wanted to 113 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 6: interview me on different shows for that book. So I 114 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 6: got into TV that way, and then I continue to 115 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 6: write books, continue to do lots of TV executive produce, produce, 116 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 6: create TV shows, you know, all in the true crime space, documentaries, 117 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 6: and then of course podcast companies came calling, and you know, 118 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 6: here I am. I partnered with iHeart about three years 119 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 6: ago and it's been great. I mean, they're a great 120 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 6: company for what I want to do. 121 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: They really are iHeart. I mean, we're part of the 122 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: same o'honna, Matthew, the same family. Yeah, yeah, so I 123 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: love that. I think you know, Yvett and I stumbled 124 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: into true crime just because of our lineage, and you 125 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: know who we're related to. But it's what you do 126 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: with it when you have that voice given to you, right, 127 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: So of course you know, today we are talking about 128 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: Michelle McNeil, and I would love to know, Matthew, what 129 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: was your first impression on this particular case. 130 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 6: My first impression when I looked at this case was 131 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 6: the LDS connection number one. I see a lot of 132 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 6: that in my work. I see a lot of the control, 133 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 6: course of control, almost cult like behavior. Not all LDS, 134 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 6: of course, but I do see an amount of it. 135 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 5: I see in a lot of these stories we cover. 136 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 6: I mean, I just see a woman who as a 137 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 6: kid was an a student, the golden child, if you will. 138 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 6: She played the violin, she was a cheerleader, she acted 139 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 6: homecoming queen. It goes on and on and on, right, right, 140 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 6: So you know, we see these people a lot of 141 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 6: times who are It's like this person had so much 142 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 6: to offer humanity, and some buddy came along and took 143 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 6: that away from not only the world, but her inner circle. 144 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 7: You know. 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 6: So my first impressions were just as they generally are, sadness, yeah, 146 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 6: and a lot of frustration that no one saw what 147 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 6: was going on here. 148 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 5: As this thing builds, you know, there's. 149 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 6: A lot going on, a lot of red flags that 150 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 6: were missed. 151 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 3: A lot of red flags, a lot a lot of flags. 152 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: And you know, and one of the first things I 153 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: want to talk about is the major red flag. Who 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: is Martin, right, Martin McNeil. And the thing that is 155 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: so it's just mind blowing to me is that this 156 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: man was able to forge like documents for government, for 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: job qualifications, for medical and no one like Bada DENI like, 158 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: how how do we think that he got away with this? 159 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: Like for me, you know, being a biracial woman, like 160 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: I think about if it was a black man or 161 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: a Latino like I feel like they would have been 162 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 2: like stopped in their tracks, you know, instantly. But this 163 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: guy just seemed to get away with it. Do we 164 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: think it was because you know, he was a veteran 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: to start with. 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. 167 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 6: It's interesting because you mentioned the racial part of it, 168 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 6: and you know he's a white LDS guy. It's like, 169 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 6: you know, who's going to question that guy? 170 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 5: Right? 171 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 6: I mean, and we should you know, you know, you 172 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 6: should take everything out of it, right, and you could 173 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 6: just look at the behavior, right, and things he did 174 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 6: that the amount of prescriptions he was he was forging, 175 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 6: I mean, he was a. 176 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 5: Doctor, right. 177 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 6: So when I look at everything he's done in totality, right, 178 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 6: it's almost like you say that he was given a 179 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 6: free pass and no one questioned what he was doing. 180 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 6: And if someone just had taken even a second look 181 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 6: at what he was doing bank, right, I mean you 182 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 6: know they'd opened up a Pandora's box of criminal behavior. 183 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: Really exactly. I think you just hit the nail on 184 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: the head, Matthew, like the Pandora's box of criminal behavior. 185 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: Right. 186 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: And you were saying earlier about like red flags. 187 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 6: I mean, we're talking about a guy, right from what 188 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 6: I read, he attempted to kill his mother and allegedly 189 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 6: killed his brother. 190 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 3: Right, allegedly, yes, who was. 191 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 6: Found faced down in a bathtub, which is an important 192 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 6: part of everything, right, absolutely, so, Prior previous behavior is 193 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 6: a good indication of behavior in the future for people 194 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 6: like this. Now, when we come to what you were 195 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 6: talking about, forging checks and all this manipulation, you start 196 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,359 Speaker 6: to head down the road of a sociopath. 197 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 5: Right. 198 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 6: And the thing we can never forget about a sociopath, 199 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 6: but more so about a psychopath, is that we can't 200 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 6: underestimate how charming they are. 201 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 7: Ah. 202 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 6: Yes, sometimes we'll get pulled into the web of they're 203 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 6: charm and they won't even know it. I interviewed a 204 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 6: serial killer for nine years, and going into that, a 205 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 6: forensic psychologist friend of mine told me, Look, you invite 206 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 6: the devil into your house, you better be ready to 207 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 6: dine with him because if not, he's going to get 208 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 6: inside your head. 209 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 210 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 6: And throughout that whole time, I mean ninety eight percent 211 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 6: of the time, I kept I was m William Phelps. 212 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 6: I was never Matthew. I was M William Phelps the 213 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 6: whole time, Right, I was. 214 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: That guy persona. 215 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 6: Yes, But there were a couple of times where I 216 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 6: fell right in with him, not in evil things he 217 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 6: was talking about, but just like, hey, what are you 218 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 6: doing tonight? 219 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 5: Phelps? When we get off the phone, or. 220 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 6: When I went to go visit him in prison, Hey, 221 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 6: where are you headed now, well, I'm headed to No. 222 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 5: No, no, you're. 223 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: Right, you're not friend, right, you're not friends? Yeah. Yeah. 224 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 6: So when we talk about Martin, we talk about the 225 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 6: same type individual. I'm not saying he's a psychopath, but 226 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 6: he clearly is heading down the road of a sociopath. 227 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: You know, he was this supposedly right, this charming guy 228 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: who you know, Michelle loved him, but at the same time, 229 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: he was having an affair with this gypsy Willis who 230 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: was the nanny, right, And we always talk about this 231 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: a lot, like when women know, like Michelle knew what 232 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 2: was happening, but she still chose to stay. We always think, 233 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: from our perspective, well, why don't they just leave? Why 234 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: didn't they get out? Why are they staying with these people? 235 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: Why do you think she didn't after all the things 236 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: that he was doing. 237 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 6: In these situations? And I spoke to a really great 238 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 6: expert on this, Laura Richards. Hear, what we're seeing in 239 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 6: this relationship between the two of them is course of control. 240 00:13:58,920 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 5: Without a doubt. 241 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 6: The numbers say this, a woman in a coercive control 242 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 6: marriage or relationship who's being abused, it takes her six 243 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 6: to seven times to leave meaning she she goes, she 244 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 6: comes back, she goes, if she's alive to leave at. 245 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 5: The seventh time. 246 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: Wow. 247 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 6: Wow, So in this case we see no. So to 248 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 6: answer your question, she was probably scared more than anything 249 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 6: else to leave. 250 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: And she had children. You know, they had so many 251 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: children as well, Right, she had children. 252 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: And you throw an LDS into it. 253 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 6: LDS guilt into it, and the elder's probably telling her 254 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 6: you have to stay. 255 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 5: That's your duty as a Christian. 256 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 6: You have to stay. So she's getting it from all 257 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 6: ends here, right, and. 258 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: She's scared right, right, And that's what we were talking 259 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: about earlier, like you don't break up the marriage in 260 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: this particular religion, in the Mormon religion, right, you just 261 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: you're not supposed to supposedly. 262 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 6: I mean she caught him, you know, looking at pornography 263 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 6: and he threatened to kill her and himself with a 264 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 6: butcher knife. 265 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: Right, So this is. 266 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 5: The kind of atmosphere she's living under. 267 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, not pattern. 268 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 5: Right. 269 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 6: I am almost one hundred percent sure. And I'll say allegedly, 270 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 6: but I am one hundred percent sure. He said to 271 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 6: her many times, you leave, I'll find you, I'll kill you, 272 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 6: or I'll kill these kids. I guarantee. He said that 273 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 6: there's no doubt. Yeah, and so that's what she's living under. 274 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 6: Plus he's he's a doctor, right, so he's got medications 275 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 6: that he's giving to her without her knowledge. I would assume, 276 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 6: you know, so he's really really controlling this. 277 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: Woman, right. I was going to say he's a master manipulator. 278 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 279 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 3: So he somehow convinces his stunningly gorgeous wife, Michelle. She's, 280 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 3: by all accounts, this beautiful woman. She you know, is 281 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: a model at one point, I believe in just so beautiful. 282 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: But he convinces her to get a facelift, and that's 283 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: part of the manipulation, right, So she agrees and is like, Okay, 284 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 3: I'll get this surgery. And then that's when Martin asked 285 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 3: Michelle's doctor to prescribe her a laundry list of medications, 286 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 3: which eventually ends up killing her. So, you know, my 287 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 3: question for you, Matthew, like, how cunning do we feel 288 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 3: that this was, you know, compared to most of the 289 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: other true crime cases that you cover. I mean, have 290 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: you seen this a lot? 291 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, this is pretty classic stuff that he's doing. Sometimes 292 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 6: in life, we run into people and we don't realize 293 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 6: it but I call them soul suckers. They just start 294 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 6: sucking the soul out of your life. You don't even 295 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 6: realize what's happening. You're caught in the spiral. There's a 296 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 6: little bit of codependency on your part, right, So you're 297 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 6: in it, right, and you're scared, and they are using 298 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 6: the absolute best manipulation tactics that they have in their arsenal. 299 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 5: To control you. 300 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 6: Like this cosmetic surgery, the facelift. She decides to do it, 301 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 6: but then he first wants her to lower her blood. 302 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 5: Pressure and then lose some weight. 303 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 6: Right, so these are more tactics to tell her you're ugly, 304 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 6: you're overweight, and you need to do these things if 305 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 6: you want me to treat you better. Yeah, so this 306 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 6: is all classic manipulation course of control on his part. 307 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 5: It's very classic. I've seen it many times. 308 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 6: I've written about it a dozen times, probably in forty 309 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 6: something books. 310 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 311 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 2: I always like to look for the light in the darkness. 312 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: And the thing about her children, like they spoke. 313 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 5: Out about him, there's the light. 314 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 3: There is a light. You know. 315 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: They were so courageous and so brave and they knew it. 316 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 7: You know. 317 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 2: It's like when you get that feeling, right, that intuitive 318 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 2: feeling that something is not right, and they took initiative, 319 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: you know, to do the right thing. 320 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 6: I find that to be very courageous on their part 321 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 6: and very much a sense of love. You know, they 322 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 6: it's love. You know, we're going to try to bust 323 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 6: through all this with love. 324 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: Yeah. 325 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 6: So many people don't do that today. 326 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 5: You know. 327 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 6: It's it's so much easier to love, right, it's harder 328 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 6: to hate. 329 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: Wow. 330 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, yeah, you know with a guy like this, 331 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 7: from just being on the outside, they knew, not even 332 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 7: being in the inner part of their marriage, just on 333 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 7: the outside, they knew this guy was a steamroller just 334 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 7: running through their mother's. 335 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 5: Life and eventually he was gonna take that life. And 336 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 5: they knew that. They sensed that for sure. 337 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 7: Yeah. 338 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: I love that you said that, Matthew. Though, like you know, 339 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 3: they chose love like and I can only imagine and 340 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: how conflicted they were because this man was their father. 341 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 3: You know, he wasn't the biological father to all of 342 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 3: the children. I believe some of them were adopted and 343 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: you know, some were biologically his. But it is it 344 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 3: is easier to love, and you know, even after all 345 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 3: of that, you know, their mother essentially being killed and 346 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: murdered just a little bit after that. And I'm not 347 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 3: going to go into details because I'm the one. I can't. 348 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 3: I can't say all the nitty gritty, gross details. I'm 349 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 3: sure that you can, Matthew, but I cannot. But I 350 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 3: do know that, you know, Martin ended up sexually assaulting 351 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 3: one of his daughters just a short time after Michelle 352 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: was killed. It was his daughter Alexis, and she I 353 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 3: think she was home right before she was herself going 354 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 3: back to medical school. She was on break and she 355 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: woke up to him sexually assaulting her. I'm not even 356 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 3: going to go into the nitty gritty. And this is 357 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 3: what Alexis said that her father, Martin said to her 358 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: when she woke up and discovered what was happening. He said, quote, oh, 359 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I thought you were your mother. End quote. 360 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: Like how disgustingly gross is That makes me stick to 361 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: my stomach. 362 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: I mean, he is a predator, But just the fact, 363 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: like what we were talking about earlier, you know, just 364 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: that had happened to her, and that she still had 365 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: the strength and the courage to speak up. 366 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 5: Right, She wasn't afraid of him. 367 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: She wasn't afraid. 368 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 6: You know, this type of behavior, it tells me a lot, 369 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 6: the absolute eu brisk, the absolute gaul, tells me a 370 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 6: couple of things that he's probably done it before. Hmmm, right, okay, 371 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 6: this is not his first rodeo with this, right right. 372 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 5: And we know when. 373 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 6: I say we in my profession, we know that a 374 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 6: guy like Martin, his type of behavior, it never de escalates, It. 375 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: All escalates, I see, always gets worse. 376 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 6: Yeah, so if we look back, we see, you know, 377 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 6: he attempted to kill mom. He allegedly killed his brother 378 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 6: in a. 379 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 3: Bathtub, which is how Michelle was found as well. 380 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 6: Prior behavior good indication of later behavior. So she's dead 381 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 6: and now he's going to start to openly sexually abuse 382 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 6: the children. So yeah, this is classic, classic sociopath behavior. 383 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 6: I mean, I did read some stuff about him perhaps 384 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 6: being diagnosed mentally ill early on, but I've not seen 385 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 6: those reports, the actual psychological reports, and I'd love to 386 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 6: see those. I'd love to see those, because a sociopath 387 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 6: can easily manipulate a psychologist into believe. 388 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 3: In that they have a mental illness. 389 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, they have a mental illness. That's all part of 390 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 6: the you know the game. So unless I see those 391 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 6: psychology reports, I'm not believing that he was mentally you know, 392 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 6: I'm not buying it. 393 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 3: You know, we do so many of these cases. 394 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 2: And the thing that is so frustrating about a lot 395 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: of these cases is that it always takes not always, 396 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: but a lot of the time. It takes so very 397 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: long for these predators, murders, you know, to actually do 398 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: the time. And for I mean for Martin, it took 399 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: six years for him to finally go on trial for 400 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: the murder of Michelle, Like why is this so common? 401 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 6: Justice runs a lot of times for the worst criminals 402 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 6: at a snail's pace because they they get these lawyers. 403 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 5: To muck up the whole situation, to. 404 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 6: Just start to file motions and argue every single little 405 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 6: bitty thing, try to get venues changed, the whole thing. 406 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 6: So they just keep prolonging this prolonged and this hoping 407 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 6: something pops for them. And it's very frustrating because look, 408 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 6: you're dragging the family through the six years, right, so 409 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 6: these these family members who have lost a loved one 410 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 6: are just being revictimized now all over again, over and 411 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 6: over and over. Every time there's a I have a 412 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 6: case now that I've been waiting on for I don't know, 413 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 6: ten years, and this guy's been in prison. 414 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 5: And for justice, yeah, and for the trial to start. 415 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: Wow, a decade. A decade, ridiculous, A decade, I. 416 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 6: Mean it just postponement after postponement after postponement. The other 417 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 6: part of it too, sometimes, which shouldn't take more than 418 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 6: a year, is that some times prosecutors will want to 419 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 6: you know, they'll want to wait because they hope maybe 420 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 6: they can cut a deal and avoid trial for everybody. 421 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 6: So they start to talk to the defense attorney and 422 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 6: maybe talk about a deal, talk to the family, Hey, 423 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 6: would you accept twenty five years, you know or whatever. 424 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 6: So that can take a little bit of time, right right, Yeah, 425 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 6: But this five, six, ten year stuff is just our 426 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 6: justice system is broken. 427 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 3: I have to agree with that. 428 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 6: I had a case I covered on Crossing the Line 429 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 6: where a girl that I went to school with was 430 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 6: murdered at the bus stop in the woods. 431 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, And. 432 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 5: They caught the kid who went to school with us. 433 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 6: So long story shorty, I mean, he went to trial. 434 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 5: You know, he got. 435 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 6: Twenty five years, he's out in seventeen years. Her family 436 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 6: fought that fought, that fought, that fought that he gets 437 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 6: out in seventeen years. He moves south, meets a girl, 438 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 6: gets her prey, and then he kills her in front 439 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 6: of the baby. Oh there's more. He gets twenty five 440 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 6: to forty years for that, and he just got out 441 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 6: last fall. 442 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 5: No, this man is murdered to women. 443 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 6: He's walking the street as we speak. 444 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 3: Justice system is broken. I'm at a loss for words. 445 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, it makes no sense to me how some of 446 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 6: these cases sometimes are adjudicated. It especially when it comes 447 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 6: to sexual assault cases. Given these three four year sentences 448 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 6: to guys who judges. 449 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 5: No, are going to go back out do it again. 450 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 6: I'm getting myself heated here and I don't want to 451 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 6: do that on your show. 452 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: It's just so frustrating, like you said, And it gets 453 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: into our heart and our soul and our mind and 454 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: our spirit because we see it so often. You know, 455 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: where they get in, they get out, or they never 456 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: even get in at all. 457 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 6: We try to your words, find the light in this right? 458 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 6: We always I do, as an EmPATH, as a as 459 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 6: a perfect Yeah, yes, try to find the light. 460 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 5: In this Where's the light in this right? Where is it? 461 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 6: And sometimes it's not there. It's just not there. You know, 462 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 6: you'd think, oh, it's going to be the judge. Oh, 463 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 6: it's going to be the prosecutor. 464 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 5: Where is it? You know. 465 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 6: So but there's hope, you know, you get you can't. 466 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 3: Lose hope, always, always, always hope. Well, Matthew, what I 467 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: was going to say as a fellow mpath which my 468 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 3: sister Yvette and I are just like you. I think 469 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 3: that's why we all do what we do, right. We 470 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: are here for a reason to shine light. And I, Anyvette, 471 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 3: I know, always always always try to find the light, 472 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: even when it feels like it it's so dark that 473 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 3: you can't see it. In this particular case, at least 474 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: after a twenty two day trial, Martin was finally found 475 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 3: guilty of first degree murder, and on that day, his 476 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 3: daughter Alexis, but more importantly, Michelle's daughter Alexis said, quote, 477 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: there was justice for my mind. Today. We are just 478 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 3: so happy he cannot hurt anyone else. Quote. 479 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 5: And it didn't. 480 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 6: Didn't Alexis take on her mom's name instead of his name. 481 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 3: She sure did. She didn't want to be doctor McNeil. 482 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 5: No so much respect that you know. 483 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 6: It's so I've seen other cases where kids are involved, where. 484 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 5: They take sides. 485 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, look at. 486 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 6: To Michael Peterson case, the staircase, right that that kind 487 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 6: of divided. 488 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 5: Those kids in that case. 489 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 7: Right. 490 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 6: But here, I'm so happy to see her say what 491 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 6: she said, not not only that, but to take. 492 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 5: On mom's name. Come yeah, doctor. 493 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: Somers strong, a strong woman right there, you know, and 494 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 2: she will carry the torch for her mom, you know, 495 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: and pay it forward to the next generation. So that 496 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: is the light. 497 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 6: That is that is the light. The light is starting 498 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 6: to creep in there. 499 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 5: Sure you know. 500 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: Lastly, we're going to end on on this, and this 501 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: is a very important question for all of us. We 502 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: do know that in April twenty seventeen, Martin actually did 503 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: successfully he committed suicide. You know, we know he had 504 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: tried many times before, but this was only two and 505 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 2: a half years into his prison sentence. 506 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 3: Right. 507 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: So the question here is do we think he was 508 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 2: truly mentally unstable? And the last part of the question 509 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 2: is do we think that if someone would have recognized 510 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: these signs in him, could he have been saved? Could 511 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: he have been a different human being? 512 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 6: I think nothing was going to stop him from causing 513 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 6: chaos and evil throughout his life. 514 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 5: That was his nature. 515 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 6: That's what he was going to do, whether it was 516 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 6: with Michelle or somebody else. I think his suicide was 517 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 6: more of a coward, this move to get out of 518 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 6: spending life in prison and being a person who sexually 519 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 6: abused his own kid and a murderer. He probably wouldn't 520 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 6: have lasted long. Yeah, you know, to the question of 521 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 6: noticing earlier on, that's a really important question that is 522 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 6: being studied a lot today. Can we do brain scans 523 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 6: on potential psychopaths and because most psychopaths, I never want 524 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 6: to say all, but all the psychopaths that I've seen 525 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 6: brain scans of and this work that's going on in England, 526 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 6: they all are missing the empathy love part of their brain. 527 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 6: It's that there's literally a whole So I mean, and 528 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,239 Speaker 6: I know this from interviewing serial killer psychopaths. It's not 529 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 6: that they don't love, it's they can't love. They have 530 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 6: no understanding of what love even means because they've never 531 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 6: felt it. So that's an interesting question I think with 532 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 6: the sociopath is kind of learned. You learn behavior in yourself, 533 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 6: you grow into it. Psychopath kind of neuture and nature, right, 534 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 6: there's the two combined. But with a sociopath, it's I 535 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 6: think it's all nurturing. I think it's all as you 536 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 6: grow into this this person, you realize that you can 537 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 6: get things by manipulation, pathological lying, you know, all of 538 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 6: this stuff. 539 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 5: So Martin, I don't think. I don't think his. 540 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 6: Path would have ever been different if somebody pointed out, hey, 541 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 6: you know, you know you're not right, dude, you got 542 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 6: to get some help. 543 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 3: He was going to do what he wanted to do regardless. 544 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, we see that earlier in his life with the 545 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 6: attempted murder and the alleged the murder. We see that, right, 546 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 6: We see how he sets up his life. That's this 547 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 6: is who I am. You know, he's telling us right, 548 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 6: and then he proceeds to get worse and do worse things. 549 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: Gosh, that resonated so deeply what you just said, and 550 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: it I feel like, Rassia, you know, this is such 551 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: a wonderful conversation with you because I feel like we're 552 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: like minded. You know that we're coming coming from the 553 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: same point of view, you know, always trying to tell 554 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: the story, but have an immense amount of empathy for, 555 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, those that are all involved in it. 556 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 6: Right, right, right, and and understand that you know, a 557 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 6: victims of murder. 558 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 5: Once the victim of murder. 559 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 6: Is dead, there's a ripple effect that travels throughout the 560 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 6: family forever and ever and ever and ever, friend's family, 561 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 6: the community. Sometimes right, yeah, it's it's yeah. So we 562 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 6: have to take that into consideration all the. 563 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 3: Time, always and hold them in the light as well. 564 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 5: In the light. 565 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 3: Yes, well, m William Phelps, the one and only mahalanuis Law, 566 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 3: thank you so much for being here on facing evil. 567 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 3: But you'll always be Matthew to us, thank you, thank 568 00:31:53,120 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 3: you for having me. Today's final message of hope and 569 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: healing goes out to Rachel, Vanessa, Alexis, Giselle, El Sabrina 570 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 3: and Ada. They are the children and adult children whose 571 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 3: lives were scarred by the death of Michelle McNeil and 572 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: by the death of their brother Damien, who took his 573 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 3: own life three years after the death of their mother. 574 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: It is our hope for you that as the years 575 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 2: go on, you are able to celebrate the lives of 576 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: those you held so dear and honor their legacy. As 577 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 2: you are released from old wounds, that you are able to. 578 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 3: Cherish the lives that you shared. 579 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: The sorrow will always remain, but it is our sincere 580 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: hope that the light finds you again and again and again. 581 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 3: And if you listening right now find yourself in a 582 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: time of grief and pain, know that this is our 583 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 3: wish for you as well. Onward and upward. B moua 584 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: E moua. Well, that's our show for today. We'd love 585 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 3: to hear what you thought about today's discussion and if 586 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: there's a case you'd like for us to. 587 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: Cover, find us on social media or email us at 588 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: Facingevil pod at tenderfoot dot tv. 589 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find 590 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 3: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and 591 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 3: a good review. If you like what we do, your 592 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 3: support is always cherished. Until next time, Aloha. 593 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 594 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero in a Vetchentile, 595 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 596 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young in Jesse Funk, Donald 597 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: Albright in Payne Lindsay, our executive producers on behalf of 598 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: tenderfoot TV alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge. 599 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 600 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 601 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 602 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 603 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows.