Speaker 1: I had some really dreadful scripts at Well, what was
Speaker 1: your worst? I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown
Speaker 1: where a terrorist came in. It's just so this so misguided.
Speaker 2: By the way. I love that you said I think
Speaker 2: I wrote a Murphy Brown. Yeah, I know, I wrote No,
Speaker 2: damn well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1: No. The I think was that this might be my worst. Oh, okay,
Speaker 1: because there's there's a lot of tuoth. Hi. My name
Speaker 1: is Paul Lieberstein and I am Brian bob Gardner's mother.
Speaker 2: Hi everybody, it's me Brian Bambgartner here, and you are
Speaker 2: listening to another episode of Off the Beat today. You
Speaker 2: just heard it. My mother is on the podcast. That's right,
Speaker 2: our old friend, Paul Leeberstein, formerly known as Toby Flanderson. Well,
Speaker 2: Paul didn't maybe he didn't give birth to me, but
Speaker 2: in a way he was like a mother to me.
Speaker 2: As the showrunner of the Office for several seasons, he
Speaker 2: kept the wheels of the show turning. He's the one
Speaker 2: that we went to with our problems, and he kept
Speaker 2: our show safe, happy and well fed, just like a
Speaker 2: mama bear. Today, I wanted to talk to Paul about
Speaker 2: his life outside of the Office. He's not only a
Speaker 2: loving mother, but he's a writer, actor, director, showrunner, producer,
Speaker 2: not to mention, a trained economist and vibraphonist, as I
Speaker 2: learned today in truth, Paul has helped redefine the genre
Speaker 2: of the half hour sitcom with shows like Greg The Bunny,
Speaker 2: The Drew Carey Show, The Bernie Max Show, Oh, King
Speaker 2: of the Hill, not to mention, The Office, Newsroom, Ghosted,
Speaker 2: and Space Force. Everything he touches turns to gold. Maybe
Speaker 2: not gold, but it's innovative, it's smart, it's boundary pushing.
Speaker 2: This is a person who really moves the needle of
Speaker 2: television with everything he does. And right now he has
Speaker 2: a brand new show on AMC, Lucky Hank with our
Speaker 2: old friend Bob Odenkirk. It is every bit as excellent
Speaker 2: and groundbreaking as well everything that Paul does. I highly
Speaker 2: recommend it. But before that, please welcome my dear friend,
Speaker 2: the soft spoken yet well mostly lovable Paul Lieberstein. Bubble
Speaker 2: and Squeak.
Speaker 1: I love it, Bubble and Squeakna.
Speaker 2: Bubble and Squeaker cook it every month.
Speaker 1: Left from the n.
Speaker 2: Paul labors Sneardner. How's it going?
Speaker 1: Oh, that's going great. That's going here good, it's going
Speaker 1: it's going good. Yeah, I had jumped into great about
Speaker 1: really thinking that through.
Speaker 2: Well, listen, I just saw you. Now I'm seeing you again.
Speaker 2: This isn't this is incredible?
Speaker 1: This good stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like twice in a month we.
Speaker 1: Had gaps without seeing each other. We Yeah, there have
Speaker 1: been some significant guess it's been some big gaps lasting
Speaker 1: a few years.
Speaker 2: I know. Now have you been I'm going to ask
Speaker 2: you some more about this later, but have you been
Speaker 2: out with a picket sign? We are currently now on
Speaker 2: day thirty two of the Writer's strike, the w GA strike.
Speaker 2: Have you been carrying a sign?
Speaker 1: I've carried a sign? Well, you know what. I walked
Speaker 1: the pick a line. I don't care the sign.
Speaker 2: You don't care the sign to heavy, I don't.
Speaker 1: No one ever gave me a sign. I haven't asked
Speaker 1: for one. It seems like it seems like everyone knows
Speaker 1: what we're up to. But if if I if I
Speaker 1: need to carry.
Speaker 2: A sign, OK, you'll carry the sign.
Speaker 1: I never said no, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2: No, I know exactly. You don't check it. You don't
Speaker 2: go to the table and check in, and you just
Speaker 2: kind of.
Speaker 1: A card at the table, you do, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 1: They just seem fine with me now wearing the shirt, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your story is so fascinating to me. I mean,
Speaker 2: largely because of your family. So I want to I
Speaker 2: want to rewind back in time. We're on the mean
Speaker 2: streets of Connecticut.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the.
Speaker 2: Late seventies, early eighties? What was what was what was
Speaker 2: little Paul like? Back then? What did what did? What
Speaker 2: did Paul like to do?
Speaker 1: I was really into music music. Yeah, played in the orchestra,
Speaker 1: played percussion in orchestras. For a while, I thought I
Speaker 1: was going to root a professional drummer.
Speaker 2: That's right. I forgot you were the drummer. I forgot.
Speaker 1: You gave me tips, that's right.
Speaker 2: So you my I wanted to be a professional baseball player.
Speaker 2: You wanted to be a professional drummer.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now I have to I have to hit pause on
Speaker 2: this for one second and ask you because I don't
Speaker 2: even know what this is. Because you said percussion to start,
Speaker 2: and I thought you were being vague. My excellent researching
Speaker 2: team has found out that you played the vibra phone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what is a what's a vibra phone? I literally don't
Speaker 2: know what a vibraphone.
Speaker 1: Is, Well, you're about to that is a vibraphone.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like the.
Speaker 1: Like a marimba. It's a big jazz instrument, largely metal
Speaker 1: keys sustaining has a pedal there when you press it
Speaker 1: down and it sustains. You play with a soft mallet.
Speaker 2: Okay, and it's I love a soft mallet.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well wait, so when you said percussion, but that was
Speaker 2: drums as well. Yeah, you played things you could bang.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I'll believe it at that.
Speaker 2: So your first performing was.
Speaker 1: Musically yeah, snare drum?
Speaker 2: Were you good?
Speaker 1: I was good, as as I was a little better
Speaker 1: than you are at that one is at that age,
Speaker 1: you know, But I don't think I was, you know,
Speaker 1: amazing yet kind of quick. Before before I had this experience,
Speaker 1: we were on vacation in Florida and kind of like
Speaker 1: ended up in some just dumb hotel lounge with a family.
Speaker 1: There was this drummer and he had a couple of
Speaker 1: electric drums there, and I thought it was really cool.
Speaker 1: And that was before that was before the time of
Speaker 1: electric drums. And I came up to him during a
Speaker 1: break and yeah, asked him about it and we got
Speaker 1: to talking and he's like, you want to be a drummer, God,
Speaker 1: don't be a drummer. This is awful. This is horrible,
Speaker 1: and no drummer had ever said that to me before.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, whoa, this is going to be terrifle
Speaker 1: allows the life.
Speaker 2: He was just a miserable person, though.
Speaker 1: He was, but I look, I was, you know fourteen
Speaker 1: fifteen fourteen.
Speaker 2: Did I ever tell you the story? I can't remember
Speaker 2: if I've told this on the podcast or not. But
Speaker 2: first off, for those of you who don't know, yes,
Speaker 2: I am. I am not a drummer. I do not
Speaker 2: play the drums. I never played the drums. They're the
Speaker 2: greatest inside the writer's room writer joke in the history
Speaker 2: of television was that, let's see if I get this right.
Speaker 2: Because you're the musician, the writers on the Office wrote
Speaker 2: Kevin to be the lead singer and drummer for a
Speaker 2: police cover bande and the joke was cos, oh my god,
Speaker 2: you just literally made everyone turn off. No, it was scranticity.
Speaker 1: It was the police.
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Well, now you're not even gonna remember the joke.
Speaker 2: So apparently the joke is I'll remind you of the
Speaker 2: joke that you nerds made is that in the Police
Speaker 2: the singing is off the beat name of this off
Speaker 2: the beat of the drumming. So for me to be
Speaker 2: the lead singer and drummer of a police cover band,
Speaker 2: I would have to be an absolute musical savant genius
Speaker 2: to be able to accomplish those two things. Do you
Speaker 2: remember this now?
Speaker 1: It did great?
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, But that was the joke. That was
Speaker 2: the joke that no one in the world knew. But
Speaker 2: that was the joke Paul used to help me. He
Speaker 2: would tutor me. I guess and I've said this many times.
Speaker 2: Ed Helms and Craig Robinson amazing musicians, so we would
Speaker 2: you know, by the time I started playing with them,
Speaker 2: there would be like six songs and they'd be like, yeah, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: we got it. I got guys, We've got to practice.
Speaker 2: And I would call Paul in and be like, come
Speaker 2: over to the warehouse with me. I need help here.
Speaker 2: These guys won't help me. But one time I was
Speaker 2: went to a charity event with Alice Cooper and I
Speaker 2: picked up at the airport. Yes, and there was like
Speaker 2: a benefit concert that night. I mean, these people from
Speaker 2: Kiss and all of these amazing musicians are going to
Speaker 2: play together for this charity thing. And the guy who
Speaker 2: picks me up at the airport says, you know, and
Speaker 2: then at the end the last song, we're going to
Speaker 2: call everybody up on stage and we want you to
Speaker 2: play the drums on schools out for Summer. And I
Speaker 2: was like I started like full on, just flopsweating in
Speaker 2: the back of the car. I was like, I can't, didn't, No,
Speaker 2: I did. I told him no, I didn't care him,
Speaker 2: I said to him, And He's like, no, well, of
Speaker 2: course they think I'm being modest, right, I'm not that great.
Speaker 2: I think it's what they're thinking. Meanwhile, it's Adrian Young
Speaker 2: from No, like an amazing drummer, is like playing the
Speaker 2: rest of the show and all this, and I'm like, no, no, really,
Speaker 2: like I really cannot do this, Like I am not
Speaker 2: going to have Alice Cooper and members of Kiss and
Speaker 2: all these like looking back at me like, yeah, so
Speaker 2: I did. I did. I didn't have my tutor you
Speaker 2: there to help me learn, So no.
Speaker 1: I Oh, you know what we did on the office once.
Speaker 2: The first time you tell it, do you remember now
Speaker 2: you're remembering I.
Speaker 1: Remember we had a drummer behind a curtain.
Speaker 2: That was the first, the first, that's the only time
Speaker 2: I didn't really play Phyllis's wedding.
Speaker 1: Phillis's wedding, Yep, and it was.
Speaker 2: A great Was it from the Goo Goo Dolls or
Speaker 2: something like that. I may be saying that totally the
Speaker 2: wrong band. It was. It was a very famous, very
Speaker 2: famous drummer who was behind the curtain playing the drums,
Speaker 2: and I and mine were dead. What do you you know?
Speaker 1: I don't know. We put something on him or I
Speaker 1: think you were really touching though, Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I think I was touching. Yeah, but yeah, but
Speaker 2: you couldn't hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you need a drummer behind a curtain?
Speaker 2: Drummer behind the curtain, that's right, all right. I did
Speaker 2: not think we were gonna there you go. There are
Speaker 2: stories of drumming with Brian.
Speaker 1: And Paul who were acting.
Speaker 2: Your sister. Yeah, Suzanne's Zan Liberstein now Daniels Daniels and
Speaker 2: your brother Warren Liberstein now Liberstein, both writers. Suzanne obviously
Speaker 2: married to Greg Daniels, a world renowned that's a horrible
Speaker 2: pra a world famous, a very big television executive, an
Speaker 2: amazing book, by the way, which I have also read.
Speaker 2: So what was were you all who was interested in
Speaker 2: television in your home? All of you or none of you?
Speaker 2: Or how did this start that all three of you
Speaker 2: ended up working in television?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we all had different interests. Yes, Suzanne
Speaker 1: always liked she always liked producing. She was like leadership organizing.
Speaker 1: She was as great as that. She kind of she
Speaker 1: did some in high school. She in college she produced
Speaker 1: the Hasty Pudding Show. And then she at a college
Speaker 1: she went started working for Lauren Michaels. And then I
Speaker 1: was I was always really interested in comedy and writing
Speaker 1: from how old junior high?
Speaker 2: Probably okay?
Speaker 1: And I was writing stuff since junior high.
Speaker 2: What were your influences?
Speaker 1: What? Ady Allen? Without fathers and Steve Martin? Okay, and
Speaker 1: my brother and I would memorize the Steve Martin stuff,
Speaker 1: say it back and forth to each other those albums. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was going after comedy, but I didn't think
Speaker 1: anybody did that. Oh, Warren was acting and here was
Speaker 1: a theater, and so we are. But we all just
Speaker 1: kind of had our own roots to, you know, follow
Speaker 1: our own interests there. But then once Suzanne graduated and
Speaker 1: started working for Lauren Michaelson. Then she started meeting some
Speaker 1: of her friends and she started dating Greg, and so
Speaker 1: I got to know Greg and some writers, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: people can do this. This is a this is a job,
Speaker 1: right that you can get. It didn't seem possible before.
Speaker 2: You know, right, right.
Speaker 1: I'd never met anyone. So I guess it was through
Speaker 1: Suzanne that I thought I could get in and started
Speaker 1: getting in and started writing. And it was a couple
Speaker 1: of years before I got my first job after writing
Speaker 1: many many specscriptions. And then Warren was graduated pursuing acting
Speaker 1: in New York, and he has his head shots and right,
Speaker 1: it's going for that and you know, as you know,
Speaker 1: that's it's kind of a brutal and a brutal road
Speaker 1: takes a tremendous amount not just talent but luck, right,
Speaker 1: and so he wasn't getting nowhere, and I was like,
Speaker 1: come on, come on, how to write? So Suzanne led.
Speaker 1: The way you know we were talking is basically it
Speaker 1: we were watching each other. So, right, it wasn't a
Speaker 1: coincidence that we all ended up better.
Speaker 2: Yes, but how lucky, I guess in a way for you,
Speaker 2: I mean, you're you clearly could have found out this
Speaker 2: information from somebody else, but that you know, her being
Speaker 2: interested in producing yet landing with Lorne Michaels, who at
Speaker 2: the time is the king of comedy on television. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean starting SNL and and so for
Speaker 2: you to have that experience of meeting Greg, meeting others,
Speaker 2: seeing her work with them, that feels lucky. I mean, like, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, if she goes to works with Jerry Bruckheimer,
Speaker 2: it's a different it's a different deal.
Speaker 1: Right, And I'm writing Lauren order space, No, I probably
Speaker 1: still I mean I wrote what interested me? I wasn't
Speaker 1: writing sketches, you know, I never tried to get on it.
Speaker 2: And now, right, do you think there's something about your
Speaker 2: parents or your upbringing or was it your environment? What
Speaker 2: do you think brought the three of you in some
Speaker 2: ways to have this interest in the arts or was
Speaker 2: it just you? Is it a coincidence?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know my sister's job. You know,
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of creativity and vision. But at
Speaker 1: the heart of it, you know, she's been an executive,
Speaker 1: a president.
Speaker 2: She's a business person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what of mean things like warrenn I always
Speaker 1: would have like loved, loved that acting thing work to
Speaker 1: work out. I don't know. I mean he certainly gave
Speaker 1: it up hard, so maybe he was ready, you know.
Speaker 1: I think that happens like actors that just they don't
Speaker 1: just like abandon a dream. It's just like it's okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I did what I needed to do to try to
Speaker 1: pursue that.
Speaker 2: Right becomes very difficult. Yes, you studied economics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I studied economics, and I loved economics.
Speaker 2: Why I loved it? What about it?
Speaker 1: It's so interesting. Economics, just like you know in macroeconomics,
Speaker 1: certainly in an undergrad level, is about how to organize
Speaker 1: the world. How do you organize society? I just think
Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating. Everything you do is a series of
Speaker 1: incentives to try to make the world, the country look
Speaker 1: a certain way and act a certain way. I mean,
Speaker 1: we are the US is more of it just a
Speaker 1: result of its tax code than anything else.
Speaker 2: Do you think that that experience helped you to create
Speaker 2: worlds in television or at least manage people as showrunners?
Speaker 1: No? Absolutely not. In fact, nothing helped me manage people
Speaker 1: as showrunners. I was not a good manager of people.
Speaker 2: Of you were a good manager, you weren't a good
Speaker 2: You don't think you were a good manager of people.
Speaker 1: I think it was it was really hard for me.
Speaker 1: I was not a natural manager of people. No.
Speaker 2: Interesting, is that because you prefer to be by yourself?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all prefer you to be by yourself. I
Speaker 2: don't think you give yourself enough credit for that, because
Speaker 2: I know because I think there are there are different
Speaker 2: types of leaders, and there was I don't think any
Speaker 2: question about your vision, and you had an ability to
Speaker 2: articulate those things. I don't think it's about I don't
Speaker 2: think being a people person as necessarily doesn't have to
Speaker 2: make you a good leader. I'm not that you're not a.
Speaker 1: People no, no, no, look I like people.
Speaker 2: You do?
Speaker 1: Yeah I do? Yeah? No, And it's kind of not
Speaker 1: what I was talking about it. It's not like being
Speaker 1: alone us. There's something about there's something about leadership where
Speaker 1: I think kind of a very selfish attitude gets you
Speaker 1: a long long way and to view everyone there, everyone
Speaker 1: around you as someone who can help you achieve what
Speaker 1: you want. I think that's good for a leader. And
Speaker 1: I think my natural thought processes is like I'm here
Speaker 1: for everybody. I'm trying. I'm going to try to support
Speaker 1: everybody and help them do their job as the boss.
Speaker 1: And and I think that's it's just a rough way
Speaker 1: to go about your day when there's so many people
Speaker 1: people that you're managing. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of worked
Speaker 1: in the writer's room. It was good there, but once
Speaker 1: it got something the whole show, it's just it's just
Speaker 1: a lot of people, right.
Speaker 2: It's still hard I think for people to understand there's
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty people there just working on this
Speaker 2: one show. And that doesn't include you know, some post
Speaker 2: production people, you know, some PR and marketing and all
Speaker 2: of that. The number is even higher than that that
Speaker 2: you're ultimately either overseeing or have a huge say in.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we're managing towards too. Yeah. I had no
Speaker 1: idea beyond with the network and studio multiple times a
Speaker 1: day like that's oh as far as the right and
Speaker 1: now we're going. Now we're going to go through the
Speaker 1: budget line by line, right, Wow, Okay.
Speaker 2: That's why I asked you about economics.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing in economics that that helps you
Speaker 1: go through a budget.
Speaker 2: I tried again, and you shot me down again. There's
Speaker 2: this thing in improv, you know, it's called yes, and
Speaker 2: you just literally don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think there is no. I don't think there is.
Speaker 2: Anything, because you know what that just did. It just
Speaker 2: shut down the conversation.
Speaker 1: Well any way you worry, you would let the conversation
Speaker 1: go to a place where it's just like, Okay, we're
Speaker 1: talking about spreadsheets.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I think it's the conversation is doing great.
Speaker 2: Let's go back. Clarissa explains it all. That's your first
Speaker 2: that's my first job, your first staff writing job. How'd
Speaker 2: you get.
Speaker 1: It through an agent? My first agent at William Morris, Okay,
Speaker 1: with a writing partner at the time, I started off
Speaker 1: just that job. I had a writing partner, Okay, And
Speaker 1: uh yeah, we went to I had come out here,
Speaker 1: signed a lease, and days later got a job that
Speaker 1: took me back to New York writing, and then we
Speaker 1: filmed in Orlando.
Speaker 2: In Orlando, Yeah, Orlando.
Speaker 1: Every time we got lost in Orlando, you'd end up
Speaker 1: at Disneyland. Yeah it's a big place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So were you living there or were you writing
Speaker 2: in New York? And then you would go down occasion
Speaker 2: to go down.
Speaker 1: Not occasionally. We went down for like four months. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: it was great. It was great. You know, say twenty
Speaker 1: four or twenty five something like that. Yeah, send me
Speaker 1: to Orlando, what do I care? Put me up in
Speaker 1: like a you know, a corporate apartment. Wow, it's bigger
Speaker 1: than any apartment I have had.
Speaker 2: You were super psyched. Yeah, did you figure that you
Speaker 2: were living out your dream?
Speaker 1: There was no question? And I was getting Uh. I
Speaker 1: was sharing the salary with another with my writing part right,
Speaker 1: and it was writer skilled minimum, and we were for sharing.
Speaker 1: And I felt so loaded. I don't think I've ever
Speaker 1: felt richer.
Speaker 2: Really. Yeah, Now, did you have to share a bed?
Speaker 1: And no? Right, no, no, did I think we shared
Speaker 1: like a two bedroom corporate apartment?
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, but you were living the life in
Speaker 2: Orlando at twenty four.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, it's the best. It's the best I
Speaker 1: can imagine. I can mention going bit and we would
Speaker 1: we would write and then I remember taking could take
Speaker 1: a break. Someone on the cast, like one of the
Speaker 1: fifteen year olds would go like back to the future,
Speaker 1: right or something, because we were on the universal connected
Speaker 1: to the universal lot. Okay, it was just good, like yeah, No,
Speaker 1: that's what a job should be.
Speaker 2: You have a number of jobs in these times, during
Speaker 2: this period time after Clarissa explains it all weird science.
Speaker 1: Weird science is serious the series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then eventually you get hired by a guy
Speaker 2: named Greg Daniels for a little show called King of
Speaker 2: the Hill. Now, had you worked with Greg at all?
Speaker 1: But he has like been aware of my specscripts. You know,
Speaker 1: I'd always ask him, hey, what do you think of
Speaker 1: this one is?
Speaker 2: Oh? He would read them?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, so he knew I was getting better
Speaker 1: as a writer, gaining experience. I had some really dreadful
Speaker 1: scripts in the beginning.
Speaker 2: Well, what was your worst?
Speaker 1: I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown where a
Speaker 1: terrorist came in. It's just so this so miskided.
Speaker 2: By the way. I love that you said I think
Speaker 2: I wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, I wrote No.
Speaker 2: Damn, well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1: The I think was that this might be my worst.
Speaker 1: Because there's there's a lot.
Speaker 2: Of did you do like back then? What were the
Speaker 2: big like did you have a friends? Did you have
Speaker 2: a Seinfeld?
Speaker 1: I had a friends that had Seinfeld? Cheers Cheers might
Speaker 1: have been my very first script and I don't remember
Speaker 1: the plot.
Speaker 2: Let me guess they were in a bar.
Speaker 1: Hm. I'm sure it was not good.
Speaker 2: What made you get better? Do you think your experience
Speaker 2: working made you get better?
Speaker 1: I think my experience not working actually, like this was
Speaker 1: not was not going anywhere. I wasn't getting work and
Speaker 1: the scripts had to be better. And then when I
Speaker 1: finally nailed it, I wrote like a Larry Sanders Sanders
Speaker 1: and the like. It was crazy how everything changed, The
Speaker 1: doors flew open, and I was hired on show after
Speaker 1: show based on that script. Really, yeah, I always I like,
Speaker 1: I give it a piece of advice to young writers
Speaker 1: when they asked occasionally, which is, if someone gave me
Speaker 1: a script and it was very good and I forwarded
Speaker 1: it to an agent, it was a it's a favor
Speaker 1: to that writer who gave me the script. But if
Speaker 1: the script is excellent, it's a favorite of the agent,
Speaker 1: And if I give it to a producer, it's a
Speaker 1: favorite of the producer. You know, it just everything flips
Speaker 1: got it and I saw one script just like really
Speaker 1: with me through the first phase of working.
Speaker 2: Now, King of the Hill, What was it like working
Speaker 2: with Greg?
Speaker 1: Oh? It was really like Greg it was for showrunning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he was very different. He was kind of learning
Speaker 1: how to be a showrunner too, but he had crazy
Speaker 1: high standards. He's coming off the as you know, it's
Speaker 1: coming off The Simpsons, and The Simpsons was headed atmosphere
Speaker 1: of just like you don't go Home, and so he
Speaker 1: brought that over to King of the Hill and we
Speaker 1: were there just all the time writing and you know,
Speaker 1: every script got thrown out so many times before it
Speaker 1: became what it was. He worked so hard and making
Speaker 1: something new. I mean, a show like that had that
Speaker 1: concept had never existed before. Right. There was this question
Speaker 1: that was just one of these network questions that they're
Speaker 1: told to ask of every animation, and so why does
Speaker 1: this have to be animated? That was just in the
Speaker 1: dogma and the answer was that it doesn't, and I'm
Speaker 1: doing it anyway. Yeah. So right, so he put together
Speaker 1: a really fun staff, some people from The Simpsons and
Speaker 1: some new people, some people from Texas, you know, to
Speaker 1: try to get an authentic voice, and we really bonded
Speaker 1: and we played. We just played and played. And when
Speaker 1: you're there all the time, there's there's time because you
Speaker 1: can't be it can't be productive all day, so it
Speaker 1: opens up more time to kind of goof around, and
Speaker 1: the bits became really extensive. We had an Office Olympics
Speaker 1: that turned into the Offices Office Olympics, right. We had
Speaker 1: there was a while there where we were a NERF
Speaker 1: basketball game at lunch in the hallway. Started taking it
Speaker 1: pretty seriously and the time that it would take, we
Speaker 1: started eating really quickly so we could get to it
Speaker 1: with fast, and we started sweating, so it'd bring a
Speaker 1: change of clothes and then we'd bring like, let's just
Speaker 1: straight out change the sneakers, but on basketball, and we
Speaker 1: would get there and we would It became this thing
Speaker 1: where we were like playing two hours in NERF basketball, right,
Speaker 1: h just sweating story. But it was great. The writers
Speaker 1: were super high quality and learned a lot, and it
Speaker 1: was my style of writing, you know, just real people
Speaker 1: talking about any kind of like big joke, you know,
Speaker 1: much more more charactery. And it was a place where
Speaker 1: I could really thrive.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like there was anything different about writing
Speaker 2: for animation which you hadn't done before, either or because
Speaker 2: there was no reason this show had to be animated.
Speaker 2: It was very much the same. It was.
Speaker 1: It was very much the same The only thing that
Speaker 1: was freed up was it's as if I was writing
Speaker 1: a live action show with a tremendous budget, because I
Speaker 1: could have, you know, thirty five locations right for a
Speaker 1: you know, in twenty two minutes. You know, I can
Speaker 1: cut someplace new for a one line scene. And that
Speaker 1: that was great training too, I think. But you know,
Speaker 1: you don't get to do that in a cit right,
Speaker 1: you get your one day out, you know, right, you
Speaker 1: have your sense and then you get one.
Speaker 2: Day out, so there's greater constraints. Yeah, you know. I
Speaker 2: used to joke occasionally by the end with you guys
Speaker 2: about about Kevin Malone and trying to explain to you
Speaker 2: writers that I was not a cartoon character. I'm sorry
Speaker 2: and that, and that physically there were limitations to what I.
Speaker 1: Could actually do that that.
Speaker 2: Could do.
Speaker 1: No, you were not. We didn't give you that stuff.
Speaker 2: Oh listen of all of the stuff. Yeah, the one
Speaker 2: that I still feel and and it was it is
Speaker 2: such a small joke and it made me laugh. It
Speaker 2: is such a small joke episode where there's great we
Speaker 2: used Reese in the warehouse to load trucks, and we're
Speaker 2: taking over from the warehouse and there's grease everywhere. Dwight
Speaker 2: and Jim are sitting on the sofa in the warehouse
Speaker 2: doing a talking head and I walk behind and then
Speaker 2: there's grease and then I slip and it was like, no, no,
Speaker 2: you just need to like it's grease, like you just
Speaker 2: need to disappear, which, of course that means I'm laying
Speaker 2: I'm falling flat on my back behind the sofa. That
Speaker 2: one I still feel by the way that one I
Speaker 2: still feel.
Speaker 1: And what year, what season was that?
Speaker 2: I don't know, Paul, don't ask all these questions. This
Speaker 2: was a spontaneous story. I didn't do research on that.
Speaker 2: Do you it's a little bit of a loaded question.
Speaker 2: Do you have feelings about other animated shows that are
Speaker 2: potentially not positive? Yeah? Do you have feelings about other
Speaker 2: animated shows that you feel like the writing gets sloppy,
Speaker 2: I as opposed to the care that you all had
Speaker 2: on King of the Hill.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not just animated. I feel most shows, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel most shows slip and many shows never even
Speaker 1: get there. I mean, you know, And part of it
Speaker 1: is style and preference, the big multicams that where they
Speaker 1: have this big setup and joke and the setup could
Speaker 1: be literally labored, and it kind of doesn't matter if
Speaker 1: it barely makes sense. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2: But I don't like, you don't want to write it.
Speaker 1: I don't want to write it, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to watch it. But but so what, It doesn't mean that,
Speaker 1: like millions of people are wrong for enjoying it, right,
Speaker 1: so we understandly, Like, yeah, I can't watch most television
Speaker 1: or comedy. I can't watch most comedy because I just
Speaker 1: it just makes me too angry that they're making decisions right. No,
Speaker 1: And I hear a setup that's a tiny bit labored
Speaker 1: and isn't honest, it makes me angry, you know, And
Speaker 1: I can't enjoy the joke that comes after, and it
Speaker 1: really takes me out of it.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting. You and I are very very st.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I hear the whole conversation that went into
Speaker 1: a joke. Yeah, I hear that, and I hear the
Speaker 1: like the twenty minutes that created it.
Speaker 2: I do the same thing with actors, really, I do
Speaker 2: the same I do the same thing. Yeah, it's when
Speaker 2: there's a choice that is made that makes no sense
Speaker 2: in terms of character, but is done for the writers. Oh,
Speaker 2: it makes me so angry. Yeah, it makes me so angry.
Speaker 2: I mean that and bad performances, let's be clear. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but but it again.
Speaker 1: It's just like, what do you want to call a
Speaker 1: bad performance if I just took my daughter to see Hairspray? Okay,
Speaker 1: So in that there's a kind of performance that everybody's doing.
Speaker 1: Obviously they were all directed to do it, and maybe
Speaker 1: it's baked into the into the show itself, right that
Speaker 1: I do not that's tough to call that acting, even
Speaker 1: for me, you know, because you're not even pretending. But hey,
Speaker 1: there was a thousand people like loving it?
Speaker 2: So right? Did your daughter love it?
Speaker 1: She liked it. It's not her favorite musical, okay, I
Speaker 1: mean she didn't know that. Going favorite musical probably Hamilton.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a great choice.
Speaker 1: That's a great choice.
Speaker 2: That's a great choice. Makes dad proud. So after King
Speaker 2: of the Hill, you have this stretch I referred to
Speaker 2: before Drew Carey Show, the Bernie mac Show. What were
Speaker 2: what was it about those shows that you bunny? What
Speaker 2: was it about those shows that worked well for you
Speaker 2: or that you responded to or why were they good
Speaker 2: shows for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So the first one Drew carry it ended up
Speaker 1: being like just an awful mistake.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Like I.
Speaker 1: Kind of enjoyed watching it, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're really doing non sensical kind of you know, some
Speaker 1: of the leaps they make logically or just kind of
Speaker 1: like breaking the rules a little bit. And I was like, huh,
Speaker 1: this is a kind of a real forward thinking show.
Speaker 1: And then when I got there, it was like it
Speaker 1: was all by accident. They weren't doing that on purpose.
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, I think so. They just it was
Speaker 1: how they worked, and they did everything together. There was
Speaker 1: no solo.
Speaker 2: Work for writers.
Speaker 1: In fact, I was completely confused the first time I
Speaker 1: was sent off for script because in the room fifteen
Speaker 1: of us whatever went line by line through an outline
Speaker 1: creating the dialogue, and the whole thing was just written
Speaker 1: in a different form, not in script form. And then
Speaker 1: at a certain point they gave it to me and
Speaker 1: said you have a week. I was like a week
Speaker 1: to do what? And there's in fact, there were like
Speaker 1: three lines maybe there where they got stuck on a
Speaker 1: joke and they just said writer's choice, and I think
Speaker 1: there was like a joke for them to write that,
Speaker 1: And I was like, am I just supposed to reform
Speaker 1: at this and fill in three jokes? Am I rewriting
Speaker 1: something I don't I still don't know what I was
Speaker 1: supposed to do and I can't remember what I did.
Speaker 1: It was very afusing to me. But the part where
Speaker 1: the part where you know, I just personally enjoy and again, look,
Speaker 1: hey some writers just want to write in a Greek
Speaker 1: but that's great, right, But the part where you know,
Speaker 1: I get to go off and really craft something I
Speaker 1: didn't get to do.
Speaker 2: It didn't exist. Fascinating. So the fact that it was
Speaker 2: your first sort of significant show that took place in
Speaker 2: a workplace environment is haphazard and there's zero connection.
Speaker 1: It was yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. What about Bernie Mac did you work?
Speaker 2: I liked you worked with Kwappas, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Worked with Clapas. I think he directed two of mine,
Speaker 1: and I worked with Larry Wilmore. Larry I was running
Speaker 1: that created that that was really interesting. That was it
Speaker 1: was different than anything I had done before, a different
Speaker 1: vibe in the room. But it was fun to do
Speaker 1: and we were trying so they sent it wasn't better,
Speaker 1: It's just it was maybe we didn't get there. But
Speaker 1: you know, we were trying. It was good.
Speaker 2: The show was known for the moments where Bernie would
Speaker 2: break the fourth wall and address the audience.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, To what degree were those scripted moments or how
Speaker 2: much did it come from him?
Speaker 1: Oh? The show was one hundred percent scripted.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I don't remember any improvising on set.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you would write those yeah, yeah, everything fully fully.
Speaker 1: And it was fully formed. So I got there in
Speaker 1: season two, so Larry had fully formed the show right before.
Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't a part of creating what that
Speaker 1: show was.
Speaker 2: It just helped, just because I think it's interesting. You know,
Speaker 2: these two shows essentially back to back, the Bernie Mack
Speaker 2: Show and the Drew Carey Show, obviously named after their stars.
Speaker 2: Was there anything different working in the writer's room when
Speaker 2: you're writing for someone with their name on the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're there, and they're a huge presence. I
Speaker 1: mean sometimes they come in. Drew Drew would he would
Speaker 1: come in, kind of sit on the couch by the wall,
Speaker 1: order a pizza for himself, and fall asleep. I liked
Speaker 1: you a lot. I thought he was jolly and nice
Speaker 1: and funny. I thought he was a good guy. But
Speaker 1: you know when the star comes in and just kind
Speaker 1: of casually sits down behind everyone, that's not That's not
Speaker 1: good for creativity. No, yeah, no, that wasn't That wasn't
Speaker 1: his best move. And then Bernie mac he was definitely
Speaker 1: a guy who had a big sense of who he
Speaker 1: was and how he was funny and what he wanted.
Speaker 2: Is that part of your job figuring out how to
Speaker 2: write his funny Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know Greg
Speaker 2: talks about that. Not to bring up the office, but
Speaker 2: Greg has talked a lot about that, about seeing forty
Speaker 2: year old virgin and that giving him a different perspective
Speaker 2: on kind of who Steve was and what Steve was
Speaker 2: able to do, and incorporating that into the writing of
Speaker 2: Michael Scott.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he made a big decision there that there was
Speaker 1: a broader character, a more likable guy. I mean, that
Speaker 1: was a key decision to take the show for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in Bernie. In the case of Bernie, i mean,
Speaker 2: his sort of style persona at that point was pretty
Speaker 2: well defined. Yeah, because that becomes you.
Speaker 1: We were going to that and I was definitely at
Speaker 1: a loss there being a white guy from Connecticut, it
Speaker 1: was difficult to even understand him. Sometimes everyone else could mm,
Speaker 1: but he had you know, he was kind of deep
Speaker 1: Chicago and stop getting his voice. Yeah, but it was
Speaker 1: a great challenge too.
Speaker 2: Obviously we've talked a lot about the office, your impact
Speaker 2: on the show, but significantly for you, it becomes your debut,
Speaker 2: your premiere, your you become an actor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I never thought could happened.
Speaker 2: You like it? Do you want to keep doing more?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It's interesting. It's interesting. You know. I don't think
Speaker 1: about it much, and let but sometimes when I'm watching
Speaker 1: something and there's someone kind of liked me, okay doing
Speaker 1: a part, I start to think about different choices and
Speaker 1: maybe I could have done that a little bit better.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I don't think about it much. And
Speaker 1: you know, I made a movie where I started made
Speaker 1: me think a lot about what a lead is lead actor.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very different.
Speaker 2: In what way you're talking. First off, you're talking about
Speaker 2: Song of Neck and back by the way, he also
Speaker 2: directed and produced and wrote and did the whole damn thing.
Speaker 2: But being so number one on the call sheet, what
Speaker 2: is that? Why is that different?
Speaker 1: I think you have the responsibility of creating someone and
Speaker 1: maybe it's all. Maybe it's just genetic, but people have
Speaker 1: to just want to watch. You put the camera on
Speaker 1: someone and they bend down the tie their shoelaces. You know,
Speaker 1: it's watching some people do that. That's going to be
Speaker 1: fascinating and I can't take my eyes away. And other
Speaker 1: people are just kind of tying their shoelaces, and a
Speaker 1: lead needs to be fascinating. What does it take to
Speaker 1: get there? You know, I don't have formal training. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's maybe there's a lot you could do. I don't know,
Speaker 1: or maybe you just have to have that persona that
Speaker 1: face and that way of being when the camera's pointing
Speaker 1: at you. I want to know what you're thinking. I
Speaker 1: want to know what's going on right, I want to
Speaker 1: see more. So like I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 1: how to get there. I don't know if I ever could,
Speaker 1: and the roads that takes me to. You know, I
Speaker 1: stopped the next movie I made. I didn't put myself in.
Speaker 1: I stopped trying to develop for myself because I don't
Speaker 1: know what I don't know what that thing is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think though that
Speaker 2: I know that that cannot be something that you're thinking
Speaker 2: about when you're doing it. I do know that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, you're probably right about that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, You're probably right. He just got to
Speaker 1: be in the moment, Yeah, trying to do your thing.
Speaker 1: Although sometimes you know, like Steve wasn't there till take twelve,
Speaker 1: and there was nothing interesting about the first eleven takes.
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe there is something you can do.
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean, there was nothing interesting in the first
Speaker 2: eleven takes.
Speaker 1: I remember once with Julian Farino was directing this episode
Speaker 1: that I wrote, and I was on set and it's
Speaker 1: just I was watching the scene. I was like, blah,
Speaker 1: you know what's going on? And I totally thought it
Speaker 1: was me And I was talking to him about what
Speaker 1: we could rewrite. I didn't know why it wasn't a
Speaker 1: more entertaining scene, and he'd just sit hold on and
Speaker 1: he went and he talked to Steve privately and came
Speaker 1: back and the next take was amazing. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: was a completely a scene worth watching. And I don't
Speaker 1: remember which what scene it was, but I remember being
Speaker 1: completely happy and I said, it was like, what did
Speaker 1: you What did you say to Steve? He said, I
Speaker 1: just taught him. I told him to kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: bring it up. It's gotta kind of bring it. So,
Speaker 1: I don't know, we should have Steve on here and
Speaker 1: ask him what the hell he does when he needs
Speaker 1: to bring it.
Speaker 2: I think it's about just being fully committed to playing
Speaker 2: the part in the given circumstance. I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I always felt about the rest of
Speaker 1: my acting, you know, and playing Toby was like, when
Speaker 1: I'm completely in it, then I'm scoring.
Speaker 2: For you. Yeah, acting, directing, writing, or I'm gonna say producing,
Speaker 2: but being boss man, either showrunner or the head of
Speaker 2: a movie, you being the person in charge. What's your favorite.
Speaker 1: Straight out favorite ooh ooh oh. You know, it's because
Speaker 1: it's moments I can't do that. I can't do that.
Speaker 1: There's these moments that are amazing in each one of them.
Speaker 1: While producing the least okay, but now there's moments in
Speaker 1: acting when you nail something that everything just feels like
Speaker 1: that's amazing. But at the same time, writing too, it's
Speaker 1: what I get to still do, you know, I still
Speaker 1: will I shouldn't say I'll still just sit here and
Speaker 1: crack myself up. I would laugh.
Speaker 2: I could promise you this. I don't crack myself up
Speaker 2: in front of a mirror. Yeah, but yeah, it's a difference.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the toughest thing with acting, and that's why
Speaker 1: I do it the least. That is it. That's when
Speaker 1: I figured out when I went on a couple of
Speaker 1: auditions after the office and being on the other side
Speaker 1: of auditions, I learned how, how what I need to do,
Speaker 1: And it's days of prep for an audition.
Speaker 2: What you need to do?
Speaker 1: What I would need to do is days of prep
Speaker 1: for an audition. Okay, but that only makes sense if
Speaker 1: that's that's all you're doing, right, you know, you can't.
Speaker 1: You can't be pursuing multiple things. It'll just eat up
Speaker 1: all of your time.
Speaker 2: Why is it days of prep? What do you like?
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: So? I think when I'm auditioning someone, someone has made
Speaker 1: a decision about every word, and someone has made choices,
Speaker 1: and they've created a character, and they've done all the work.
Speaker 1: They get the part, you know, and it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that someone else wouldn't have gotten there and been great.
Speaker 1: It's just that well they did it. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: comparing people.
Speaker 2: This is fascinating to me. This is fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: So when someone comes in and they're reading, I know
Speaker 1: they'll be I know that they would be okay from
Speaker 1: there from a previous work. But I see it with
Speaker 1: someone who said did everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2: See, my theory is the opposite, not that the work
Speaker 2: isn't there, because yes, the work should be there, and
Speaker 2: there should be a character and choices made but fully formed.
Speaker 2: My belief always is this is a collaborative situation, right,
Speaker 2: and particularly as an actor who has given very very
Speaker 2: little information most of the time.
Speaker 1: Most of the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if I'm auditioning for you and I don't
Speaker 2: know you, this character is a character that has been imagined.
Speaker 2: My job is to that I make it better in
Speaker 2: some way or I at least embody perfectly the vision
Speaker 2: that that writer has. But ultimately, in an audition, my
Speaker 2: belief is is it's a work in progress. If I
Speaker 2: come in with a fully, fully framed performance, then your
Speaker 2: belief is psychologically that's how he's going to do it.
Speaker 2: So here's an example. Yeah, I will memorize the pages.
Speaker 2: I always hold a script, Always hold a script, because psychologically,
Speaker 2: to me, that indicates to you we're working together on
Speaker 2: this we're still on the working on this. I'm shuffling
Speaker 2: papers and pay me not that I put that away.
Speaker 2: Because to me, if I deliver a fully formed performance
Speaker 2: where everything is done to me, then you believe that's
Speaker 2: all this, that's that's the performance that I'm getting from
Speaker 2: this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, when I start to think what you're
Speaker 1: worried about is when we do it again and again
Speaker 1: and the actor comes in exactly the exactly the same,
Speaker 1: exactly the same.
Speaker 2: And my my favorite words in an audition is to
Speaker 2: give me one adjustment and do it. I love doing it.
Speaker 1: Again when I did when I did the newstrip or
Speaker 1: contained Fonda. Okay, she said that when she comes on set,
Speaker 1: she comes in with choices and having done all the work.
Speaker 1: And she said, well, whoa, what if it said that
Speaker 1: some people don't like that They want to be able
Speaker 1: to direct you, you know, tell you what their character is.
Speaker 1: And then she said, what if they don't. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. So yeah, in a script, when not everything's
Speaker 1: thought out the best way it should, it's not a
Speaker 1: final product a script obviously, you know it's that's not
Speaker 1: the kind of piece of writing that you're doing. So
Speaker 1: you know, someone comes in they show you something better
Speaker 1: than what you imagined, and it's just like fantastic, Oh, fantastic, right,
Speaker 1: And it's a piece of relief. And I don't think
Speaker 1: somebody can't not take an adjustment unless they show me
Speaker 1: they can't, because we'll always give you know, I give
Speaker 1: an adjustment to an actor even when I love their performance,
Speaker 1: and I often make them worse because I liked what
Speaker 1: they we're doing before. But still it's just like you
Speaker 1: have to say something, and you know, if someone ignores
Speaker 1: the adjustment, then that's maybe a red flag, right, fascinating Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then sometimes you know, especially with television less so
Speaker 1: with film, you're not auditioning for the director, right, you're
Speaker 1: editioning for the writers who aren't going to be there
Speaker 1: on set or aren't going to be the ones who
Speaker 1: are able to have a conversation with you or give
Speaker 1: you notes. Right, So it's like you get what they're after,
Speaker 1: or get they're really happy with with what you're doing,
Speaker 1: and it's just like, Okay, well, how much can the
Speaker 1: director really fuck this up?
Speaker 2: Well? I know that's what the television producers are always
Speaker 2: thinking about, how much how can we make this director prove? Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: you're one of those two. I left it well. Your
Speaker 2: latest show, Lucky Hank with the incredible member of the cast,
Speaker 2: member of the office. Maybe not the role he wanted originally,
Speaker 2: but he was still there. God bless America. Lucky Hank.
Speaker 2: Such an interesting show. And what I want to talk
Speaker 2: about is your partnership with Aaron Aaron Zelman. You guys
Speaker 2: come from completely different backgrounds. Yeah, on order, criminal Minds,
Speaker 2: the Killing Resurrection. I mean he's got a very dark damages,
Speaker 2: bloodline procedurals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very dark, very dark. He's very comfortable writing stuff
Speaker 1: that's very dark. He's a very funny guy. But the
Speaker 1: more he okay, so this is interesting. It's just an
Speaker 1: interesting So they were actors that we had who the
Speaker 1: more they did it, the more serious they got, you know,
Speaker 1: guest actors or something. And I've seen that with drama
Speaker 1: actors that you know, first sake it's gone a light.
Speaker 1: But the more they search for truth, which is their process,
Speaker 1: the more they find the most truth in the most
Speaker 1: dramatic parts of it.
Speaker 2: In your show, what were you searching for?
Speaker 1: So we started with a half hour script that we
Speaker 1: sold and financially they didn't make it work. It to
Speaker 1: be an hour. So we said, okay. Nobody said make
Speaker 1: it more dramatic. Nobody said, don't make it a comedy.
Speaker 1: But it just has a pull towards the dramatic, like
Speaker 1: you're watching something for a longer amount of time and
Speaker 1: it just has to kind of has to be there.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but we were we were looking for
Speaker 1: an honest look at the life of a workingman of
Speaker 1: that age, and we just wanted it to be about
Speaker 1: living life.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Obviously we were in a we didn't have a procedural,
Speaker 1: we didn't have a thing to happen. But the thing
Speaker 1: we could have had was either soap or issues, you know,
Speaker 1: and we really fought hard to Every time we kind
Speaker 1: of smelled soap coming in, we went the other way
Speaker 1: and we didn't let any issues in. We just didn't
Speaker 1: want to be an issue show. This was just about
Speaker 1: trying to go through life. It got more dramatic as
Speaker 1: it went on. We started off kind of light, and
Speaker 1: as we got some other characters more and what they
Speaker 1: were going through, and it's just a guy was having
Speaker 1: a midlife crisis, and so you know, as Bob goes
Speaker 1: through it, it's just it becomes just more intense. So
Speaker 1: there's episodes where I really feel are comfortable in the
Speaker 1: calling them a drama, and others, certainly early on, calling
Speaker 1: it a comedy.
Speaker 2: But this is my belief. Life is both. Yeah, life
Speaker 2: is both. For me, the best dramas are also funny,
Speaker 2: not all. I mean there are some where it's so
Speaker 2: crazy dark Maid's Tale. I think Handmaid's Tale is a
Speaker 2: fantastic show. There is not a laugh in Handmaid's Tale
Speaker 2: now all in all of the seasons. But for me,
Speaker 2: you look at the sopranos. Yeah, Succession, I'm rewatching Fargo
Speaker 2: now Planes. Yeah, there is a like I'm laughing out
Speaker 2: loud with my earphones on and my iPad in bed,
Speaker 2: Like I'm laughing out loud, and then you know, five
Speaker 2: seconds later somebody gets brutally murdered. But that's what I think.
Speaker 2: The best life is is both funny and dramatic and
Speaker 2: sometimes at the same time. Why do we have to
Speaker 2: characterize it?
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but it's it's wild. There's two
Speaker 1: sets of executives. Got your comedy executives and your dramas.
Speaker 1: You got to pitch right.
Speaker 2: Oscar Nunez comes and plays an appearance, plays Dean Rose. Yeah,
Speaker 2: why didn't I?
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just fucking with you. I know you, I
Speaker 1: know you are.
Speaker 2: I've literally never said that to anybody here but you.
Speaker 2: I was like, Oscar is in it? What the hell
Speaker 2: is that? He's not funny or dramatic?
Speaker 1: Love to have you in it?
Speaker 2: Is there? Season two?
Speaker 1: I hope? So, I don't know. We're on strike, but
Speaker 1: ends they'll let me know that little thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Are you happy with the reception?
Speaker 1: People? Critics have loved it. I couldn't be happier there.
Speaker 1: I just watched watch more people watched it. I mean,
Speaker 1: television has changed so much. Yes, everybody used to watch everything.
Speaker 1: I'man still a lot of millions and millions of people
Speaker 1: watching what I write. And then it's six hundred thousand
Speaker 1: and oh that's good, right, it is right.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not too late to watch it, by the way,
Speaker 2: And the numbers still count.
Speaker 1: I never still count as it's getting and you know what,
Speaker 1: I haven't even heard what we've what we've done on
Speaker 1: amc US, which I think was a big part of
Speaker 1: how people watched it.
Speaker 2: How I watched it, Good Lucky Hank with the incredible
Speaker 2: Bob Bon and Kirk and Kirk.
Speaker 1: He's so good.
Speaker 2: How is uh? I can't ever say her name? And
Speaker 2: I really like Murray, Yes he knows. Yeah, I love her.
Speaker 2: And by the way, not typically funny like she she's
Speaker 2: on those shows that are not typically so funny. She
Speaker 2: is so delightful. And obviously my old friend Cedric, not obviously,
Speaker 2: but Cedric, your Borough, Dietrich Botter, and many many more. Congratulations,
Speaker 2: thanks on that.
Speaker 1: It's been fun to do and I think, really I'm
Speaker 1: happy with how it came out, you.
Speaker 2: Know, good.
Speaker 1: I just want people to see it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Good. How is it? To go back to my original question,
Speaker 2: working with Aaron? Was there a good there?
Speaker 1: So? It was a lot of fun there is so
Speaker 1: we were from these different worlds. Yeah, and we would
Speaker 1: argue forever, like hours and hours we could argue, and
Speaker 1: then when we got to the page we would agree
Speaker 1: so easily.
Speaker 2: Argue on a setup.
Speaker 1: We were what a scene should be, how to organize it,
Speaker 1: like all the rules, all the ways that we put
Speaker 1: together a scene were very different. Okay, ways that we've
Speaker 1: been taught, the things we would value first as we
Speaker 1: got to a place, and then it was just kind
Speaker 1: of wild that we realized, Okay, we just got to
Speaker 1: stop talking and put things down, and that's where we
Speaker 1: really liked each other's writing, past scenes, back and forth easily.
Speaker 1: It became very very easy. Actually nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that combination those differences sometimes you find real gold.
Speaker 2: And I think the aesthetic and feeling of the show
Speaker 2: is so hard to describe because it is something special
Speaker 2: and different and new. So congratulations on that.
Speaker 1: Thanks. It was new. It was different, like we didn't
Speaker 1: have a model. Yeah, I couldn't point to another show
Speaker 1: saying this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which different is good?
Speaker 1: It is, it is. I think it's why we're having
Speaker 1: a tough time finding I just need that audience to
Speaker 1: come check out the show. It's good. It's really good.
Speaker 2: Check it out. Check it out for Paul and for
Speaker 2: me and my future role on season two. Yeah, the
Speaker 2: writers strike, How is it different and the same as
Speaker 2: what we went through on the Office in two thousand and.
Speaker 1: Eight, Let's see. I mean both times we're striking for
Speaker 1: something very clear. Yes, this time feels different in that
Speaker 1: even if we win, it's not gonna be enough. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it wasn't anybody's fault, Like the companies didn't get together
Speaker 1: as an oligopoly and decide, hey, let's let's screw the
Speaker 1: writers and make everything six to eight episodes instead of
Speaker 1: twenty two. But that's at the heart of it, because
Speaker 1: we were the bottle that we were paid was per
Speaker 1: episode based on twenty two to twenty four episodes a year.
Speaker 1: In success, that's right. So now in success it's still
Speaker 1: six or eight episodes. Still takes a year to do.
Speaker 1: Especially I mean, if you're the showrunner and you're the
Speaker 1: salary just went to a quarter to a third, So
Speaker 1: nobody's fault. That's the way the marketplace went. But we're broken.
Speaker 1: A quarter of what we're making is not enough. So
Speaker 1: it's clear what happened. It's clear. It's clear what's wrong.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's still we're fighting for these incremental gains, right,
Speaker 1: just a few percentage points away actually in the deals.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what's I don't know what the
Speaker 1: future is going to be.
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, there's two issues, and you know
Speaker 2: I can speak to it because it's it's all the same.
Speaker 2: It's directors, it's writers, yeah, factors, but it's that, and
Speaker 2: it's it's it's middle class actors and writers making a
Speaker 2: living off residuals which went to zero.
Speaker 1: Basically which went to zero. That's the other big thing,
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's where we should all be
Speaker 1: aligned with. All these three guilds should just get together.
Speaker 1: Let's make the strike about residuals. I have a theory
Speaker 1: that I I mean, I had a proposal that I
Speaker 1: told them that don't seem to be acting on it.
Speaker 1: What was it? It was just like, if the show
Speaker 1: is being offered by a streamer for a month, that's
Speaker 1: an airing, and that should be a network payment, like
Speaker 1: straight out like what we were making. It was great before, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was working. It was working, it was working.
Speaker 1: So take that airing. You know that they did that
Speaker 1: whatever payment it was, and it got less and less
Speaker 1: each time it was aired. But fine, keep the same
Speaker 1: payment structure every month the streamer offers it. It's an airing,
Speaker 1: and we should get a residual right based on that
Speaker 1: old scale, and get rid of this, get rid of
Speaker 1: this idea that like then it should somehow be tied
Speaker 1: to downloads. I think that's our downfall there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a very very real problem. Everybody. You
Speaker 2: know the last writers strike that was one hundred days.
Speaker 2: I think it probably could be two hundred or three
Speaker 2: hundred days this time, but wow, I think they're going
Speaker 2: to come to an agreement. Well, middle class actors and writers,
Speaker 2: you can't survive anymore. You can't. You can't survive. You can't,
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm talking about face. If you talk
Speaker 2: about the actors faces that you know on television that
Speaker 2: used to get through sometimes a year of not finding
Speaker 2: much work based on work that they had done and
Speaker 2: that was still being seen on television. Well now you
Speaker 2: could make an argument that their work has continued to
Speaker 2: be seen even more and they can't qualify for health insurance. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is this is a significant. This is a significant
Speaker 2: and nothing has changed. Nothing has changed about the work
Speaker 2: or how many people are seeing it or any of
Speaker 2: that stuff. The only thing that has changed is the distribution,
Speaker 2: and that's a problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So there you go on that note, pick up a sign,
Speaker 2: and go walk down Sunset Boulevard. I'm so happy for
Speaker 2: you and Lucky Hank. I'm so happy for you that
Speaker 2: you have and are continuing to do work that is interesting,
Speaker 2: that is changing the face of television, continuing to change
Speaker 2: the face of television, and I just I love you,
Speaker 2: I really do, and I.
Speaker 1: Thank you love you too.
Speaker 2: I hope we get to do it again sometime. Yes,
Speaker 2: find something else, or I'll find something and hire you
Speaker 2: as an actor. Okay, that'll be maybe that'll be the switch.
Speaker 2: Always interesting, never a dull moment. Paul Eberstein, Thanks Paul,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: Paul, thank you so much. It was. It was so
Speaker 2: great to talk to you again. You are engaging, you
Speaker 2: are enlightening, and well you make me laugh. Everybody please
Speaker 2: check out Lucky Hank, not just for Paul, but for yourselves.
Speaker 2: You won't be disappointed. And while we're on the subject,
Speaker 2: I do want to take a moment to let you
Speaker 2: guys know the writer strike. This is a This is
Speaker 2: a very big deal. And because the writers are on strike,
Speaker 2: as I believe they should be, it is impacting everyone
Speaker 2: who works on film and television. Nothing is being filmed
Speaker 2: right now, so that means makeup artists, camera up raiders, gaffers,
Speaker 2: production assistants, caterers, everyone is right now is out of work.
Speaker 2: We're at seven weeks and like I said with Paul,
Speaker 2: I think it could be much longer. So if you
Speaker 2: want to support the strike and the writers and quite frankly,
Speaker 2: eventually the actors consider making a donation to the Entertainment
Speaker 2: Community Fund. This helps support all types of entertainment workers
Speaker 2: who are affected by the strike. Entertainment Community Fund look
Speaker 2: it up and if you're not in a position to
Speaker 2: donate right now, take a look at the WGA website
Speaker 2: for more ways that you can help. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2: You know the crew well, They're very important to me
Speaker 2: and I want to make sure they are supported as
Speaker 2: much as we all can during this difficult time. Best
Speaker 2: wishes to all of you. Stay safe out there and
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted
Speaker 2: and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer,
Speaker 2: Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers
Speaker 2: are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent
Speaker 2: producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sammy Katz.
Speaker 2: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one
Speaker 2: and Only Creed Bratton