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Speaker 1: I had some really dreadful scripts at Well, what was

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Speaker 1: your worst? I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown

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Speaker 1: where a terrorist came in. It's just so this so misguided.

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Speaker 2: By the way. I love that you said I think

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Speaker 2: I wrote a Murphy Brown. Yeah, I know, I wrote No,

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Speaker 2: damn well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.

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Speaker 1: No. The I think was that this might be my worst. Oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: because there's there's a lot of tuoth. Hi. My name

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Speaker 1: is Paul Lieberstein and I am Brian bob Gardner's mother.

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Speaker 2: Hi everybody, it's me Brian Bambgartner here, and you are

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Speaker 2: listening to another episode of Off the Beat today. You

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Speaker 2: just heard it. My mother is on the podcast. That's right,

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Speaker 2: our old friend, Paul Leeberstein, formerly known as Toby Flanderson. Well,

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Speaker 2: Paul didn't maybe he didn't give birth to me, but

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Speaker 2: in a way he was like a mother to me.

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Speaker 2: As the showrunner of the Office for several seasons, he

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Speaker 2: kept the wheels of the show turning. He's the one

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Speaker 2: that we went to with our problems, and he kept

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Speaker 2: our show safe, happy and well fed, just like a

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Speaker 2: mama bear. Today, I wanted to talk to Paul about

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Speaker 2: his life outside of the Office. He's not only a

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Speaker 2: loving mother, but he's a writer, actor, director, showrunner, producer,

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Speaker 2: not to mention, a trained economist and vibraphonist, as I

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Speaker 2: learned today in truth, Paul has helped redefine the genre

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Speaker 2: of the half hour sitcom with shows like Greg The Bunny,

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Speaker 2: The Drew Carey Show, The Bernie Max Show, Oh, King

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Speaker 2: of the Hill, not to mention, The Office, Newsroom, Ghosted,

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Speaker 2: and Space Force. Everything he touches turns to gold. Maybe

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Speaker 2: not gold, but it's innovative, it's smart, it's boundary pushing.

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Speaker 2: This is a person who really moves the needle of

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Speaker 2: television with everything he does. And right now he has

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Speaker 2: a brand new show on AMC, Lucky Hank with our

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Speaker 2: old friend Bob Odenkirk. It is every bit as excellent

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Speaker 2: and groundbreaking as well everything that Paul does. I highly

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Speaker 2: recommend it. But before that, please welcome my dear friend,

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Speaker 2: the soft spoken yet well mostly lovable Paul Lieberstein. Bubble

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Speaker 2: and Squeak.

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Speaker 1: I love it, Bubble and Squeakna.

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Speaker 2: Bubble and Squeaker cook it every month.

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Speaker 1: Left from the n.

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Speaker 2: Paul labors Sneardner. How's it going?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's going great. That's going here good, it's going

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Speaker 1: it's going good. Yeah, I had jumped into great about

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Speaker 1: really thinking that through.

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Speaker 2: Well, listen, I just saw you. Now I'm seeing you again.

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Speaker 2: This isn't this is incredible?

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Speaker 1: This good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like twice in a month we.

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Speaker 1: Had gaps without seeing each other. We Yeah, there have

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Speaker 1: been some significant guess it's been some big gaps lasting

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Speaker 1: a few years.

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Speaker 2: I know. Now have you been I'm going to ask

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Speaker 2: you some more about this later, but have you been

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Speaker 2: out with a picket sign? We are currently now on

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Speaker 2: day thirty two of the Writer's strike, the w GA strike.

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Speaker 2: Have you been carrying a sign?

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Speaker 1: I've carried a sign? Well, you know what. I walked

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Speaker 1: the pick a line. I don't care the sign.

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Speaker 2: You don't care the sign to heavy, I don't.

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Speaker 1: No one ever gave me a sign. I haven't asked

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Speaker 1: for one. It seems like it seems like everyone knows

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Speaker 1: what we're up to. But if if I if I

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Speaker 1: need to carry.

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Speaker 2: A sign, OK, you'll carry the sign.

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Speaker 1: I never said no, we're not doing that.

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Speaker 2: No, I know exactly. You don't check it. You don't

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Speaker 2: go to the table and check in, and you just

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Speaker 2: kind of.

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Speaker 1: A card at the table, you do, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

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Speaker 1: They just seem fine with me now wearing the shirt, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your story is so fascinating to me. I mean,

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Speaker 2: largely because of your family. So I want to I

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Speaker 2: want to rewind back in time. We're on the mean

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Speaker 2: streets of Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in the.

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Speaker 2: Late seventies, early eighties? What was what was what was

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Speaker 2: little Paul like? Back then? What did what did? What

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Speaker 2: did Paul like to do?

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Speaker 1: I was really into music music. Yeah, played in the orchestra,

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Speaker 1: played percussion in orchestras. For a while, I thought I

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Speaker 1: was going to root a professional drummer.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I forgot you were the drummer. I forgot.

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Speaker 1: You gave me tips, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So you my I wanted to be a professional baseball player.

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Speaker 2: You wanted to be a professional drummer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now I have to I have to hit pause on

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Speaker 2: this for one second and ask you because I don't

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Speaker 2: even know what this is. Because you said percussion to start,

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Speaker 2: and I thought you were being vague. My excellent researching

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Speaker 2: team has found out that you played the vibra phone. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what is a what's a vibra phone? I literally don't

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Speaker 2: know what a vibraphone.

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Speaker 1: Is, Well, you're about to that is a vibraphone.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's like the.

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Speaker 1: Like a marimba. It's a big jazz instrument, largely metal

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Speaker 1: keys sustaining has a pedal there when you press it

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Speaker 1: down and it sustains. You play with a soft mallet.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and it's I love a soft mallet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well wait, so when you said percussion, but that was

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Speaker 2: drums as well. Yeah, you played things you could bang.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I'll believe it at that.

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Speaker 2: So your first performing was.

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Speaker 1: Musically yeah, snare drum?

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Speaker 2: Were you good?

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Speaker 1: I was good, as as I was a little better

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Speaker 1: than you are at that one is at that age,

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Speaker 1: you know, But I don't think I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: amazing yet kind of quick. Before before I had this experience,

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Speaker 1: we were on vacation in Florida and kind of like

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Speaker 1: ended up in some just dumb hotel lounge with a family.

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Speaker 1: There was this drummer and he had a couple of

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Speaker 1: electric drums there, and I thought it was really cool.

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Speaker 1: And that was before that was before the time of

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Speaker 1: electric drums. And I came up to him during a

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Speaker 1: break and yeah, asked him about it and we got

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Speaker 1: to talking and he's like, you want to be a drummer, God,

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Speaker 1: don't be a drummer. This is awful. This is horrible,

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Speaker 1: and no drummer had ever said that to me before.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, whoa, this is going to be terrifle

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Speaker 1: allows the life.

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Speaker 2: He was just a miserable person, though.

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Speaker 1: He was, but I look, I was, you know fourteen

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Speaker 1: fifteen fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Did I ever tell you the story? I can't remember

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Speaker 2: if I've told this on the podcast or not. But

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Speaker 2: first off, for those of you who don't know, yes,

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Speaker 2: I am. I am not a drummer. I do not

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Speaker 2: play the drums. I never played the drums. They're the

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Speaker 2: greatest inside the writer's room writer joke in the history

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Speaker 2: of television was that, let's see if I get this right.

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Speaker 2: Because you're the musician, the writers on the Office wrote

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Speaker 2: Kevin to be the lead singer and drummer for a

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Speaker 2: police cover bande and the joke was cos, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: you just literally made everyone turn off. No, it was scranticity.

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Speaker 1: It was the police.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Well, now you're not even gonna remember the joke.

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Speaker 2: So apparently the joke is I'll remind you of the

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Speaker 2: joke that you nerds made is that in the Police

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Speaker 2: the singing is off the beat name of this off

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Speaker 2: the beat of the drumming. So for me to be

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Speaker 2: the lead singer and drummer of a police cover band,

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Speaker 2: I would have to be an absolute musical savant genius

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Speaker 2: to be able to accomplish those two things. Do you

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Speaker 2: remember this now?

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Speaker 1: It did great?

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, But that was the joke. That was

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Speaker 2: the joke that no one in the world knew. But

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Speaker 2: that was the joke Paul used to help me. He

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Speaker 2: would tutor me. I guess and I've said this many times.

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Speaker 2: Ed Helms and Craig Robinson amazing musicians, so we would

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Speaker 2: you know, by the time I started playing with them,

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Speaker 2: there would be like six songs and they'd be like, yeah, okay, cool,

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Speaker 2: we got it. I got guys, We've got to practice.

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Speaker 2: And I would call Paul in and be like, come

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Speaker 2: over to the warehouse with me. I need help here.

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Speaker 2: These guys won't help me. But one time I was

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Speaker 2: went to a charity event with Alice Cooper and I

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Speaker 2: picked up at the airport. Yes, and there was like

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Speaker 2: a benefit concert that night. I mean, these people from

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Speaker 2: Kiss and all of these amazing musicians are going to

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Speaker 2: play together for this charity thing. And the guy who

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Speaker 2: picks me up at the airport says, you know, and

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Speaker 2: then at the end the last song, we're going to

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Speaker 2: call everybody up on stage and we want you to

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Speaker 2: play the drums on schools out for Summer. And I

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Speaker 2: was like I started like full on, just flopsweating in

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Speaker 2: the back of the car. I was like, I can't, didn't, No,

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Speaker 2: I did. I told him no, I didn't care him,

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Speaker 2: I said to him, And He's like, no, well, of

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Speaker 2: course they think I'm being modest, right, I'm not that great.

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Speaker 2: I think it's what they're thinking. Meanwhile, it's Adrian Young

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Speaker 2: from No, like an amazing drummer, is like playing the

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Speaker 2: rest of the show and all this, and I'm like, no, no, really,

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Speaker 2: like I really cannot do this, Like I am not

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Speaker 2: going to have Alice Cooper and members of Kiss and

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Speaker 2: all these like looking back at me like, yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I did. I did. I didn't have my tutor you

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Speaker 2: there to help me learn, So no.

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Speaker 1: I Oh, you know what we did on the office once.

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Speaker 2: The first time you tell it, do you remember now

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Speaker 2: you're remembering I.

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Speaker 1: Remember we had a drummer behind a curtain.

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Speaker 2: That was the first, the first, that's the only time

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Speaker 2: I didn't really play Phyllis's wedding.

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Speaker 1: Phillis's wedding, Yep, and it was.

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Speaker 2: A great Was it from the Goo Goo Dolls or

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Speaker 2: something like that. I may be saying that totally the

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Speaker 2: wrong band. It was. It was a very famous, very

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Speaker 2: famous drummer who was behind the curtain playing the drums,

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Speaker 2: and I and mine were dead. What do you you know?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. We put something on him or I

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Speaker 1: think you were really touching though, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, I think I was touching. Yeah, but yeah, but

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Speaker 2: you couldn't hear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did you need a drummer behind a curtain?

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Speaker 2: Drummer behind the curtain, that's right, all right. I did

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Speaker 2: not think we were gonna there you go. There are

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Speaker 2: stories of drumming with Brian.

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Speaker 1: And Paul who were acting.

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Speaker 2: Your sister. Yeah, Suzanne's Zan Liberstein now Daniels Daniels and

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Speaker 2: your brother Warren Liberstein now Liberstein, both writers. Suzanne obviously

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Speaker 2: married to Greg Daniels, a world renowned that's a horrible

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Speaker 2: pra a world famous, a very big television executive, an

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Speaker 2: amazing book, by the way, which I have also read.

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Speaker 2: So what was were you all who was interested in

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Speaker 2: television in your home? All of you or none of you?

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Speaker 2: Or how did this start that all three of you

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Speaker 2: ended up working in television?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we all had different interests. Yes, Suzanne

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Speaker 1: always liked she always liked producing. She was like leadership organizing.

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Speaker 1: She was as great as that. She kind of she

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Speaker 1: did some in high school. She in college she produced

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Speaker 1: the Hasty Pudding Show. And then she at a college

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Speaker 1: she went started working for Lauren Michaels. And then I

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Speaker 1: was I was always really interested in comedy and writing

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Speaker 1: from how old junior high?

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Speaker 2: Probably okay?

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Speaker 1: And I was writing stuff since junior high.

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Speaker 2: What were your influences?

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Speaker 1: What? Ady Allen? Without fathers and Steve Martin? Okay, and

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Speaker 1: my brother and I would memorize the Steve Martin stuff,

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Speaker 1: say it back and forth to each other those albums. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I was going after comedy, but I didn't think

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Speaker 1: anybody did that. Oh, Warren was acting and here was

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Speaker 1: a theater, and so we are. But we all just

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Speaker 1: kind of had our own roots to, you know, follow

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Speaker 1: our own interests there. But then once Suzanne graduated and

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Speaker 1: started working for Lauren Michaelson. Then she started meeting some

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Speaker 1: of her friends and she started dating Greg, and so

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Speaker 1: I got to know Greg and some writers, and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: people can do this. This is a this is a job,

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Speaker 1: right that you can get. It didn't seem possible before.

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Speaker 2: You know, right, right.

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Speaker 1: I'd never met anyone. So I guess it was through

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Speaker 1: Suzanne that I thought I could get in and started

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Speaker 1: getting in and started writing. And it was a couple

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Speaker 1: of years before I got my first job after writing

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Speaker 1: many many specscriptions. And then Warren was graduated pursuing acting

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Speaker 1: in New York, and he has his head shots and right,

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Speaker 1: it's going for that and you know, as you know,

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Speaker 1: that's it's kind of a brutal and a brutal road

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Speaker 1: takes a tremendous amount not just talent but luck, right,

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Speaker 1: and so he wasn't getting nowhere, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: come on, come on, how to write? So Suzanne led.

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Speaker 1: The way you know we were talking is basically it

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Speaker 1: we were watching each other. So, right, it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: coincidence that we all ended up better.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but how lucky, I guess in a way for you,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're you clearly could have found out this

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Speaker 2: information from somebody else, but that you know, her being

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Speaker 2: interested in producing yet landing with Lorne Michaels, who at

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Speaker 2: the time is the king of comedy on television. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean starting SNL and and so for

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Speaker 2: you to have that experience of meeting Greg, meeting others,

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Speaker 2: seeing her work with them, that feels lucky. I mean, like, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, if she goes to works with Jerry Bruckheimer,

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Speaker 2: it's a different it's a different deal.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I'm writing Lauren order space, No, I probably

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Speaker 1: still I mean I wrote what interested me? I wasn't

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Speaker 1: writing sketches, you know, I never tried to get on it.

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Speaker 2: And now, right, do you think there's something about your

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Speaker 2: parents or your upbringing or was it your environment? What

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Speaker 2: do you think brought the three of you in some

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Speaker 2: ways to have this interest in the arts or was

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Speaker 2: it just you? Is it a coincidence?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know my sister's job. You know,

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Speaker 1: it takes a lot of creativity and vision. But at

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Speaker 1: the heart of it, you know, she's been an executive,

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Speaker 1: a president.

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Speaker 2: She's a business person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what of mean things like warrenn I always

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Speaker 1: would have like loved, loved that acting thing work to

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Speaker 1: work out. I don't know. I mean he certainly gave

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Speaker 1: it up hard, so maybe he was ready, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think that happens like actors that just they don't

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Speaker 1: just like abandon a dream. It's just like it's okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: I did what I needed to do to try to

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Speaker 1: pursue that.

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Speaker 2: Right becomes very difficult. Yes, you studied economics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I studied economics, and I loved economics.

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Speaker 2: Why I loved it? What about it?

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting. Economics, just like you know in macroeconomics,

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Speaker 1: certainly in an undergrad level, is about how to organize

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Speaker 1: the world. How do you organize society? I just think

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Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating. Everything you do is a series of

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Speaker 1: incentives to try to make the world, the country look

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Speaker 1: a certain way and act a certain way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we are the US is more of it just a

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Speaker 1: result of its tax code than anything else.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that experience helped you to create

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Speaker 2: worlds in television or at least manage people as showrunners?

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Speaker 1: No? Absolutely not. In fact, nothing helped me manage people

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Speaker 1: as showrunners. I was not a good manager of people.

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Speaker 2: Of you were a good manager, you weren't a good

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Speaker 2: You don't think you were a good manager of people.

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Speaker 1: I think it was it was really hard for me.

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Speaker 1: I was not a natural manager of people. No.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, is that because you prefer to be by yourself?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we all prefer you to be by yourself. I

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Speaker 2: don't think you give yourself enough credit for that, because

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Speaker 2: I know because I think there are there are different

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Speaker 2: types of leaders, and there was I don't think any

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Speaker 2: question about your vision, and you had an ability to

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Speaker 2: articulate those things. I don't think it's about I don't

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Speaker 2: think being a people person as necessarily doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: make you a good leader. I'm not that you're not a.

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Speaker 1: People no, no, no, look I like people.

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Speaker 2: You do?

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Speaker 1: Yeah I do? Yeah? No, And it's kind of not

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Speaker 1: what I was talking about it. It's not like being

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Speaker 1: alone us. There's something about there's something about leadership where

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Speaker 1: I think kind of a very selfish attitude gets you

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Speaker 1: a long long way and to view everyone there, everyone

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Speaker 1: around you as someone who can help you achieve what

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Speaker 1: you want. I think that's good for a leader. And

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Speaker 1: I think my natural thought processes is like I'm here

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Speaker 1: for everybody. I'm trying. I'm going to try to support

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Speaker 1: everybody and help them do their job as the boss.

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Speaker 1: And and I think that's it's just a rough way

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Speaker 1: to go about your day when there's so many people

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Speaker 1: people that you're managing. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of worked

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Speaker 1: in the writer's room. It was good there, but once

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Speaker 1: it got something the whole show, it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, right.

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Speaker 2: It's still hard I think for people to understand there's

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty people there just working on this

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Speaker 2: one show. And that doesn't include you know, some post

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Speaker 2: production people, you know, some PR and marketing and all

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Speaker 2: of that. The number is even higher than that that

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Speaker 2: you're ultimately either overseeing or have a huge say in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we're managing towards too. Yeah. I had no

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Speaker 1: idea beyond with the network and studio multiple times a

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Speaker 1: day like that's oh as far as the right and

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Speaker 1: now we're going. Now we're going to go through the

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Speaker 1: budget line by line, right, Wow, Okay.

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Speaker 2: That's why I asked you about economics.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing in economics that that helps you

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Speaker 1: go through a budget.

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Speaker 2: I tried again, and you shot me down again. There's

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Speaker 2: this thing in improv, you know, it's called yes, and

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Speaker 2: you just literally don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there is no. I don't think there is.

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Speaker 2: Anything, because you know what that just did. It just

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Speaker 2: shut down the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Well any way you worry, you would let the conversation

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Speaker 1: go to a place where it's just like, Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about spreadsheets.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the conversation is doing great.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back. Clarissa explains it all. That's your first

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Speaker 2: that's my first job, your first staff writing job. How'd

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Speaker 2: you get.

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Speaker 1: It through an agent? My first agent at William Morris, Okay,

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Speaker 1: with a writing partner at the time, I started off

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Speaker 1: just that job. I had a writing partner, Okay, And

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, we went to I had come out here,

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Speaker 1: signed a lease, and days later got a job that

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Speaker 1: took me back to New York writing, and then we

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Speaker 1: filmed in Orlando.

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Speaker 2: In Orlando, Yeah, Orlando.

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Speaker 1: Every time we got lost in Orlando, you'd end up

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Speaker 1: at Disneyland. Yeah it's a big place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So were you living there or were you writing

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Speaker 2: in New York? And then you would go down occasion

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Speaker 2: to go down.

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Speaker 1: Not occasionally. We went down for like four months. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: it was great. It was great. You know, say twenty

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Speaker 1: four or twenty five something like that. Yeah, send me

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Speaker 1: to Orlando, what do I care? Put me up in

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Speaker 1: like a you know, a corporate apartment. Wow, it's bigger

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Speaker 1: than any apartment I have had.

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Speaker 2: You were super psyched. Yeah, did you figure that you

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Speaker 2: were living out your dream?

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Speaker 1: There was no question? And I was getting Uh. I

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Speaker 1: was sharing the salary with another with my writing part right,

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Speaker 1: and it was writer skilled minimum, and we were for sharing.

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Speaker 1: And I felt so loaded. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: felt richer.

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Speaker 2: Really. Yeah, Now, did you have to share a bed?

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Speaker 1: And no? Right, no, no, did I think we shared

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Speaker 1: like a two bedroom corporate apartment?

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, but you were living the life in

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Speaker 2: Orlando at twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, it's the best. It's the best I

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Speaker 1: can imagine. I can mention going bit and we would

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Speaker 1: we would write and then I remember taking could take

390
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Speaker 1: a break. Someone on the cast, like one of the

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Speaker 1: fifteen year olds would go like back to the future,

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Speaker 1: right or something, because we were on the universal connected

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Speaker 1: to the universal lot. Okay, it was just good, like yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: that's what a job should be.

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Speaker 2: You have a number of jobs in these times, during

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Speaker 2: this period time after Clarissa explains it all weird science.

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Speaker 1: Weird science is serious the series.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then eventually you get hired by a guy

399
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Speaker 2: named Greg Daniels for a little show called King of

400
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Speaker 2: the Hill. Now, had you worked with Greg at all?

401
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Speaker 1: But he has like been aware of my specscripts. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'd always ask him, hey, what do you think of

403
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Speaker 1: this one is?

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Speaker 2: Oh? He would read them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, so he knew I was getting better

406
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Speaker 1: as a writer, gaining experience. I had some really dreadful

407
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Speaker 1: scripts in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Well, what was your worst?

409
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Speaker 1: I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown where a

410
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Speaker 1: terrorist came in. It's just so this so miskided.

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Speaker 2: By the way. I love that you said I think

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Speaker 2: I wrote a Murphy Brown.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, I wrote No.

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Speaker 2: Damn, well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.

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Speaker 1: The I think was that this might be my worst.

416
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Speaker 1: Because there's there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of did you do like back then? What were the

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Speaker 2: big like did you have a friends? Did you have

419
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Speaker 2: a Seinfeld?

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Speaker 1: I had a friends that had Seinfeld? Cheers Cheers might

421
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Speaker 1: have been my very first script and I don't remember

422
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Speaker 1: the plot.

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Speaker 2: Let me guess they were in a bar.

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Speaker 1: Hm. I'm sure it was not good.

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Speaker 2: What made you get better? Do you think your experience

426
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Speaker 2: working made you get better?

427
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Speaker 1: I think my experience not working actually, like this was

428
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Speaker 1: not was not going anywhere. I wasn't getting work and

429
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: the scripts had to be better. And then when I

430
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Speaker 1: finally nailed it, I wrote like a Larry Sanders Sanders

431
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Speaker 1: and the like. It was crazy how everything changed, The

432
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Speaker 1: doors flew open, and I was hired on show after

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Speaker 1: show based on that script. Really, yeah, I always I like,

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Speaker 1: I give it a piece of advice to young writers

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Speaker 1: when they asked occasionally, which is, if someone gave me

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Speaker 1: a script and it was very good and I forwarded

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Speaker 1: it to an agent, it was a it's a favor

438
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: to that writer who gave me the script. But if

439
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: the script is excellent, it's a favorite of the agent,

440
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: And if I give it to a producer, it's a

441
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: favorite of the producer. You know, it just everything flips

442
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: got it and I saw one script just like really

443
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: with me through the first phase of working.

444
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: Now, King of the Hill, What was it like working

445
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: with Greg?

446
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: Oh? It was really like Greg it was for showrunning. Yeah,

447
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: so he was very different. He was kind of learning

448
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: how to be a showrunner too, but he had crazy

449
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: high standards. He's coming off the as you know, it's

450
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: coming off The Simpsons, and The Simpsons was headed atmosphere

451
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: of just like you don't go Home, and so he

452
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: brought that over to King of the Hill and we

453
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: were there just all the time writing and you know,

454
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: every script got thrown out so many times before it

455
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: became what it was. He worked so hard and making

456
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: something new. I mean, a show like that had that

457
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: concept had never existed before. Right. There was this question

458
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: that was just one of these network questions that they're

459
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: told to ask of every animation, and so why does

460
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: this have to be animated? That was just in the

461
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: dogma and the answer was that it doesn't, and I'm

462
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: doing it anyway. Yeah. So right, so he put together

463
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: a really fun staff, some people from The Simpsons and

464
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: some new people, some people from Texas, you know, to

465
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: try to get an authentic voice, and we really bonded

466
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: and we played. We just played and played. And when

467
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: you're there all the time, there's there's time because you

468
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: can't be it can't be productive all day, so it

469
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: opens up more time to kind of goof around, and

470
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: the bits became really extensive. We had an Office Olympics

471
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: that turned into the Offices Office Olympics, right. We had

472
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: there was a while there where we were a NERF

473
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: basketball game at lunch in the hallway. Started taking it

474
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: pretty seriously and the time that it would take, we

475
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: started eating really quickly so we could get to it

476
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: with fast, and we started sweating, so it'd bring a

477
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: change of clothes and then we'd bring like, let's just

478
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: straight out change the sneakers, but on basketball, and we

479
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: would get there and we would It became this thing

480
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: where we were like playing two hours in NERF basketball, right,

481
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: h just sweating story. But it was great. The writers

482
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: were super high quality and learned a lot, and it

483
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: was my style of writing, you know, just real people

484
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: talking about any kind of like big joke, you know,

485
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: much more more charactery. And it was a place where

486
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: I could really thrive.

487
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: Do you feel like there was anything different about writing

488
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 2: for animation which you hadn't done before, either or because

489
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: there was no reason this show had to be animated.

490
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: It was very much the same. It was.

491
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: It was very much the same The only thing that

492
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: was freed up was it's as if I was writing

493
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: a live action show with a tremendous budget, because I

494
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: could have, you know, thirty five locations right for a

495
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, in twenty two minutes. You know, I can

496
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: cut someplace new for a one line scene. And that

497
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: that was great training too, I think. But you know,

498
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: you don't get to do that in a cit right,

499
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: you get your one day out, you know, right, you

500
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: have your sense and then you get one.

501
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: Day out, so there's greater constraints. Yeah, you know. I

502
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: used to joke occasionally by the end with you guys

503
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: about about Kevin Malone and trying to explain to you

504
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: writers that I was not a cartoon character. I'm sorry

505
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: and that, and that physically there were limitations to what I.

506
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: Could actually do that that.

507
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: Could do.

508
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: No, you were not. We didn't give you that stuff.

509
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: Oh listen of all of the stuff. Yeah, the one

510
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: that I still feel and and it was it is

511
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: such a small joke and it made me laugh. It

512
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: is such a small joke episode where there's great we

513
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: used Reese in the warehouse to load trucks, and we're

514
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: taking over from the warehouse and there's grease everywhere. Dwight

515
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: and Jim are sitting on the sofa in the warehouse

516
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: doing a talking head and I walk behind and then

517
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: there's grease and then I slip and it was like, no, no,

518
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: you just need to like it's grease, like you just

519
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: need to disappear, which, of course that means I'm laying

520
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: I'm falling flat on my back behind the sofa. That

521
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: one I still feel by the way that one I

522
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: still feel.

523
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: And what year, what season was that?

524
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, Paul, don't ask all these questions. This

525
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: was a spontaneous story. I didn't do research on that.

526
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: Do you it's a little bit of a loaded question.

527
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: Do you have feelings about other animated shows that are

528
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: potentially not positive? Yeah? Do you have feelings about other

529
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: animated shows that you feel like the writing gets sloppy,

530
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: I as opposed to the care that you all had

531
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: on King of the Hill.

532
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's not just animated. I feel most shows, you know,

533
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: I feel most shows slip and many shows never even

534
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: get there. I mean, you know, And part of it

535
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: is style and preference, the big multicams that where they

536
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: have this big setup and joke and the setup could

537
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: be literally labored, and it kind of doesn't matter if

538
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: it barely makes sense. There's nothing wrong with that.

539
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: But I don't like, you don't want to write it.

540
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to write it, and I don't want

541
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: to watch it. But but so what, It doesn't mean that,

542
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: like millions of people are wrong for enjoying it, right,

543
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: so we understandly, Like, yeah, I can't watch most television

544
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: or comedy. I can't watch most comedy because I just

545
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: it just makes me too angry that they're making decisions right. No,

546
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: And I hear a setup that's a tiny bit labored

547
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: and isn't honest, it makes me angry, you know, And

548
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: I can't enjoy the joke that comes after, and it

549
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: really takes me out of it.

550
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: It's so interesting. You and I are very very st.

551
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: And sometimes I hear the whole conversation that went into

552
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: a joke. Yeah, I hear that, and I hear the

553
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: like the twenty minutes that created it.

554
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: I do the same thing with actors, really, I do

555
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: the same I do the same thing. Yeah, it's when

556
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: there's a choice that is made that makes no sense

557
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: in terms of character, but is done for the writers. Oh,

558
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: it makes me so angry. Yeah, it makes me so angry.

559
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: I mean that and bad performances, let's be clear. Yeah,

560
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: but but it again.

561
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: It's just like, what do you want to call a

562
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: bad performance if I just took my daughter to see Hairspray? Okay,

563
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: So in that there's a kind of performance that everybody's doing.

564
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: Obviously they were all directed to do it, and maybe

565
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: it's baked into the into the show itself, right that

566
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: I do not that's tough to call that acting, even

567
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: for me, you know, because you're not even pretending. But hey,

568
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: there was a thousand people like loving it?

569
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: So right? Did your daughter love it?

570
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: She liked it. It's not her favorite musical, okay, I

571
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: mean she didn't know that. Going favorite musical probably Hamilton.

572
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a great choice.

573
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: That's a great choice.

574
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: That's a great choice. Makes dad proud. So after King

575
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: of the Hill, you have this stretch I referred to

576
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,479
Speaker 2: before Drew Carey Show, the Bernie mac Show. What were

577
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: what was it about those shows that you bunny? What

578
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: was it about those shows that worked well for you

579
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 2: or that you responded to or why were they good

580
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: shows for you?

581
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? So the first one Drew carry it ended up

582
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: being like just an awful mistake.

583
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Like I.

584
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: Kind of enjoyed watching it, and I was like, oh,

585
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: they're really doing non sensical kind of you know, some

586
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: of the leaps they make logically or just kind of

587
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 1: like breaking the rules a little bit. And I was like, huh,

588
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: this is a kind of a real forward thinking show.

589
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: And then when I got there, it was like it

590
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: was all by accident. They weren't doing that on purpose.

591
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, I think so. They just it was

592
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: how they worked, and they did everything together. There was

593
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: no solo.

594
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: Work for writers.

595
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: In fact, I was completely confused the first time I

596
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: was sent off for script because in the room fifteen

597
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: of us whatever went line by line through an outline

598
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: creating the dialogue, and the whole thing was just written

599
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: in a different form, not in script form. And then

600
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: at a certain point they gave it to me and

601
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: said you have a week. I was like a week

602
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: to do what? And there's in fact, there were like

603
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: three lines maybe there where they got stuck on a

604
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: joke and they just said writer's choice, and I think

605
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: there was like a joke for them to write that,

606
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: And I was like, am I just supposed to reform

607
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: at this and fill in three jokes? Am I rewriting

608
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: something I don't I still don't know what I was

609
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: supposed to do and I can't remember what I did.

610
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: It was very afusing to me. But the part where

611
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: the part where you know, I just personally enjoy and again, look,

612
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: hey some writers just want to write in a Greek

613
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: but that's great, right, But the part where you know,

614
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: I get to go off and really craft something I

615
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: didn't get to do.

616
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: It didn't exist. Fascinating. So the fact that it was

617
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: your first sort of significant show that took place in

618
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: a workplace environment is haphazard and there's zero connection.

619
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: It was yeah, yeah, okay.

620
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. What about Bernie Mac did you work?

621
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: I liked you worked with Kwappas, right, Yeah, I.

622
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: Worked with Clapas. I think he directed two of mine,

623
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: and I worked with Larry Wilmore. Larry I was running

624
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: that created that that was really interesting. That was it

625
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: was different than anything I had done before, a different

626
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: vibe in the room. But it was fun to do

627
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: and we were trying so they sent it wasn't better,

628
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: It's just it was maybe we didn't get there. But

629
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, we were trying. It was good.

630
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: The show was known for the moments where Bernie would

631
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: break the fourth wall and address the audience.

632
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

633
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, To what degree were those scripted moments or how

634
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 2: much did it come from him?

635
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: Oh? The show was one hundred percent scripted.

636
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 2: Okay.

637
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: I don't remember any improvising on set.

638
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So you would write those yeah, yeah, everything fully fully.

639
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: And it was fully formed. So I got there in

640
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: season two, so Larry had fully formed the show right before.

641
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't a part of creating what that

642
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: show was.

643
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: It just helped, just because I think it's interesting. You know,

644
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: these two shows essentially back to back, the Bernie Mack

645
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: Show and the Drew Carey Show, obviously named after their stars.

646
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: Was there anything different working in the writer's room when

647
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 2: you're writing for someone with their name on the show.

648
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're there, and they're a huge presence. I

649
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: mean sometimes they come in. Drew Drew would he would

650
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: come in, kind of sit on the couch by the wall,

651
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: order a pizza for himself, and fall asleep. I liked

652
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: you a lot. I thought he was jolly and nice

653
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: and funny. I thought he was a good guy. But

654
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: you know when the star comes in and just kind

655
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: of casually sits down behind everyone, that's not That's not

656
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: good for creativity. No, yeah, no, that wasn't That wasn't

657
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: his best move. And then Bernie mac he was definitely

658
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: a guy who had a big sense of who he

659
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: was and how he was funny and what he wanted.

660
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: Is that part of your job figuring out how to

661
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: write his funny Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know Greg

662
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: talks about that. Not to bring up the office, but

663
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: Greg has talked a lot about that, about seeing forty

664
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: year old virgin and that giving him a different perspective

665
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: on kind of who Steve was and what Steve was

666
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: able to do, and incorporating that into the writing of

667
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: Michael Scott.

668
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, he made a big decision there that there was

669
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: a broader character, a more likable guy. I mean, that

670
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: was a key decision to take the show for you.

671
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in Bernie. In the case of Bernie, i mean,

672
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: his sort of style persona at that point was pretty

673
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: well defined. Yeah, because that becomes you.

674
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: We were going to that and I was definitely at

675
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: a loss there being a white guy from Connecticut, it

676
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: was difficult to even understand him. Sometimes everyone else could mm,

677
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: but he had you know, he was kind of deep

678
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: Chicago and stop getting his voice. Yeah, but it was

679
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: a great challenge too.

680
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: Obviously we've talked a lot about the office, your impact

681
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: on the show, but significantly for you, it becomes your debut,

682
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: your premiere, your you become an actor.

683
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I never thought could happened.

684
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: You like it? Do you want to keep doing more?

685
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? It's interesting. It's interesting. You know. I don't think

686
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: about it much, and let but sometimes when I'm watching

687
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: something and there's someone kind of liked me, okay doing

688
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: a part, I start to think about different choices and

689
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: maybe I could have done that a little bit better.

690
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 2: I like that.

691
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I don't think about it much. And

692
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: you know, I made a movie where I started made

693
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: me think a lot about what a lead is lead actor.

694
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very different.

695
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: In what way you're talking. First off, you're talking about

696
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: Song of Neck and back by the way, he also

697
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: directed and produced and wrote and did the whole damn thing.

698
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: But being so number one on the call sheet, what

699
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: is that? Why is that different?

700
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: I think you have the responsibility of creating someone and

701
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: maybe it's all. Maybe it's just genetic, but people have

702
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: to just want to watch. You put the camera on

703
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: someone and they bend down the tie their shoelaces. You know,

704
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: it's watching some people do that. That's going to be

705
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: fascinating and I can't take my eyes away. And other

706
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: people are just kind of tying their shoelaces, and a

707
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: lead needs to be fascinating. What does it take to

708
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: get there? You know, I don't have formal training. Maybe

709
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: there's maybe there's a lot you could do. I don't know,

710
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: or maybe you just have to have that persona that

711
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: face and that way of being when the camera's pointing

712
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: at you. I want to know what you're thinking. I

713
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: want to know what's going on right, I want to

714
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: see more. So like I don't know, I don't know

715
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: how to get there. I don't know if I ever could,

716
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: and the roads that takes me to. You know, I

717
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: stopped the next movie I made. I didn't put myself in.

718
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: I stopped trying to develop for myself because I don't

719
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: know what I don't know what that thing is.

720
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think though that

721
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: I know that that cannot be something that you're thinking

722
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: about when you're doing it. I do know that.

723
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, you're probably right about that. I don't know.

724
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, You're probably right. He just got to

725
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: be in the moment, Yeah, trying to do your thing.

726
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: Although sometimes you know, like Steve wasn't there till take twelve,

727
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: and there was nothing interesting about the first eleven takes.

728
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe there is something you can do.

729
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean, there was nothing interesting in the first

730
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: eleven takes.

731
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: I remember once with Julian Farino was directing this episode

732
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: that I wrote, and I was on set and it's

733
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: just I was watching the scene. I was like, blah,

734
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: you know what's going on? And I totally thought it

735
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: was me And I was talking to him about what

736
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: we could rewrite. I didn't know why it wasn't a

737
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: more entertaining scene, and he'd just sit hold on and

738
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: he went and he talked to Steve privately and came

739
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: back and the next take was amazing. Yeah, and it

740
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: was a completely a scene worth watching. And I don't

741
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: remember which what scene it was, but I remember being

742
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: completely happy and I said, it was like, what did

743
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: you What did you say to Steve? He said, I

744
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: just taught him. I told him to kind of, you know,

745
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: bring it up. It's gotta kind of bring it. So,

746
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, we should have Steve on here and

747
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 1: ask him what the hell he does when he needs

748
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: to bring it.

749
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: I think it's about just being fully committed to playing

750
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: the part in the given circumstance. I think that's interesting.

751
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I always felt about the rest of

752
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: my acting, you know, and playing Toby was like, when

753
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm completely in it, then I'm scoring.

754
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: For you. Yeah, acting, directing, writing, or I'm gonna say producing,

755
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: but being boss man, either showrunner or the head of

756
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: a movie, you being the person in charge. What's your favorite.

757
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: Straight out favorite ooh ooh oh. You know, it's because

758
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: it's moments I can't do that. I can't do that.

759
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: There's these moments that are amazing in each one of them.

760
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: While producing the least okay, but now there's moments in

761
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: acting when you nail something that everything just feels like

762
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: that's amazing. But at the same time, writing too, it's

763
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: what I get to still do, you know, I still

764
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: will I shouldn't say I'll still just sit here and

765
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 1: crack myself up. I would laugh.

766
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: I could promise you this. I don't crack myself up

767
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: in front of a mirror. Yeah, but yeah, it's a difference.

768
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: Well, that's the toughest thing with acting, and that's why

769
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: I do it the least. That is it. That's when

770
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: I figured out when I went on a couple of

771
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: auditions after the office and being on the other side

772
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: of auditions, I learned how, how what I need to do,

773
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: And it's days of prep for an audition.

774
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: What you need to do?

775
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: What I would need to do is days of prep

776
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,919
Speaker 1: for an audition. Okay, but that only makes sense if

777
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: that's that's all you're doing, right, you know, you can't.

778
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: You can't be pursuing multiple things. It'll just eat up

779
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: all of your time.

780
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 2: Why is it days of prep? What do you like?

781
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: What do you mean?

782
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: So? I think when I'm auditioning someone, someone has made

783
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: a decision about every word, and someone has made choices,

784
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: and they've created a character, and they've done all the work.

785
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: They get the part, you know, and it doesn't mean

786
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: that someone else wouldn't have gotten there and been great.

787
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: It's just that well they did it. I mean, you're

788
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: comparing people.

789
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: This is fascinating to me. This is fascinating to me.

790
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: So when someone comes in and they're reading, I know

791
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: they'll be I know that they would be okay from

792
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: there from a previous work. But I see it with

793
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: someone who said did everything. Yeah.

794
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 2: See, my theory is the opposite, not that the work

795
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 2: isn't there, because yes, the work should be there, and

796
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: there should be a character and choices made but fully formed.

797
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: My belief always is this is a collaborative situation, right,

798
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: and particularly as an actor who has given very very

799
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: little information most of the time.

800
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: Most of the time.

801
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if I'm auditioning for you and I don't

802
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: know you, this character is a character that has been imagined.

803
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: My job is to that I make it better in

804
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: some way or I at least embody perfectly the vision

805
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: that that writer has. But ultimately, in an audition, my

806
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: belief is is it's a work in progress. If I

807
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: come in with a fully, fully framed performance, then your

808
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: belief is psychologically that's how he's going to do it.

809
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 2: So here's an example. Yeah, I will memorize the pages.

810
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: I always hold a script, Always hold a script, because psychologically,

811
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: to me, that indicates to you we're working together on

812
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: this we're still on the working on this. I'm shuffling

813
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: papers and pay me not that I put that away.

814
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: Because to me, if I deliver a fully formed performance

815
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: where everything is done to me, then you believe that's

816
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: all this, that's that's the performance that I'm getting from

817
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 2: this guy.

818
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, when I start to think what you're

819
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: worried about is when we do it again and again

820
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: and the actor comes in exactly the exactly the same,

821
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: exactly the same.

822
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: And my my favorite words in an audition is to

823
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: give me one adjustment and do it. I love doing it.

824
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: Again when I did when I did the newstrip or

825
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: contained Fonda. Okay, she said that when she comes on set,

826
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 1: she comes in with choices and having done all the work.

827
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: And she said, well, whoa, what if it said that

828
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: some people don't like that They want to be able

829
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: to direct you, you know, tell you what their character is.

830
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: And then she said, what if they don't. Yeah, I

831
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: don't know. So yeah, in a script, when not everything's

832
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: thought out the best way it should, it's not a

833
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: final product a script obviously, you know it's that's not

834
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: the kind of piece of writing that you're doing. So

835
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,479
Speaker 1: you know, someone comes in they show you something better

836
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: than what you imagined, and it's just like fantastic, Oh, fantastic, right,

837
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: And it's a piece of relief. And I don't think

838
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: somebody can't not take an adjustment unless they show me

839
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 1: they can't, because we'll always give you know, I give

840
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: an adjustment to an actor even when I love their performance,

841
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: and I often make them worse because I liked what

842
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: they we're doing before. But still it's just like you

843
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 1: have to say something, and you know, if someone ignores

844
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: the adjustment, then that's maybe a red flag, right, fascinating Yeah,

845
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: And then sometimes you know, especially with television less so

846
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: with film, you're not auditioning for the director, right, you're

847
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 1: editioning for the writers who aren't going to be there

848
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: on set or aren't going to be the ones who

849
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: are able to have a conversation with you or give

850
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: you notes. Right, So it's like you get what they're after,

851
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: or get they're really happy with with what you're doing,

852
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: and it's just like, Okay, well, how much can the

853
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: director really fuck this up?

854
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: Well? I know that's what the television producers are always

855
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:51,919
Speaker 2: thinking about, how much how can we make this director prove? Yeah, well,

856
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: you're one of those two. I left it well. Your

857
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: latest show, Lucky Hank with the incredible member of the cast,

858
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 2: member of the office. Maybe not the role he wanted originally,

859
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: but he was still there. God bless America. Lucky Hank.

860
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: Such an interesting show. And what I want to talk

861
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: about is your partnership with Aaron Aaron Zelman. You guys

862
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: come from completely different backgrounds. Yeah, on order, criminal Minds,

863
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: the Killing Resurrection. I mean he's got a very dark damages,

864
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: bloodline procedurals.

865
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, very dark, very dark. He's very comfortable writing stuff

866
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: that's very dark. He's a very funny guy. But the

867
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: more he okay, so this is interesting. It's just an

868
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: interesting So they were actors that we had who the

869
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: more they did it, the more serious they got, you know,

870
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: guest actors or something. And I've seen that with drama

871
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: actors that you know, first sake it's gone a light.

872
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: But the more they search for truth, which is their process,

873
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: the more they find the most truth in the most

874
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: dramatic parts of it.

875
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: In your show, what were you searching for?

876
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: So we started with a half hour script that we

877
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: sold and financially they didn't make it work. It to

878
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: be an hour. So we said, okay. Nobody said make

879
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: it more dramatic. Nobody said, don't make it a comedy.

880
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: But it just has a pull towards the dramatic, like

881
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: you're watching something for a longer amount of time and

882
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: it just has to kind of has to be there.

883
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, but we were we were looking for

884
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: an honest look at the life of a workingman of

885
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: that age, and we just wanted it to be about

886
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: living life.

887
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 2: You know.

888
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: Obviously we were in a we didn't have a procedural,

889
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: we didn't have a thing to happen. But the thing

890
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: we could have had was either soap or issues, you know,

891
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: and we really fought hard to Every time we kind

892
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: of smelled soap coming in, we went the other way

893
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: and we didn't let any issues in. We just didn't

894
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: want to be an issue show. This was just about

895
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: trying to go through life. It got more dramatic as

896
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: it went on. We started off kind of light, and

897
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: as we got some other characters more and what they

898
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: were going through, and it's just a guy was having

899
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: a midlife crisis, and so you know, as Bob goes

900
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: through it, it's just it becomes just more intense. So

901
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: there's episodes where I really feel are comfortable in the

902
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: calling them a drama, and others, certainly early on, calling

903
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: it a comedy.

904
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: But this is my belief. Life is both. Yeah, life

905
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 2: is both. For me, the best dramas are also funny,

906
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: not all. I mean there are some where it's so

907
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: crazy dark Maid's Tale. I think Handmaid's Tale is a

908
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: fantastic show. There is not a laugh in Handmaid's Tale

909
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: now all in all of the seasons. But for me,

910
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: you look at the sopranos. Yeah, Succession, I'm rewatching Fargo

911
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 2: now Planes. Yeah, there is a like I'm laughing out

912
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 2: loud with my earphones on and my iPad in bed,

913
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 2: Like I'm laughing out loud, and then you know, five

914
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 2: seconds later somebody gets brutally murdered. But that's what I think.

915
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 2: The best life is is both funny and dramatic and

916
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: sometimes at the same time. Why do we have to

917
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 2: characterize it?

918
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but it's it's wild. There's two

919
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 1: sets of executives. Got your comedy executives and your dramas.

920
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: You got to pitch right.

921
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: Oscar Nunez comes and plays an appearance, plays Dean Rose. Yeah,

922
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 2: why didn't I?

923
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just fucking with you. I know you, I

924
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: know you are.

925
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 2: I've literally never said that to anybody here but you.

926
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: I was like, Oscar is in it? What the hell

927
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: is that? He's not funny or dramatic?

928
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: Love to have you in it?

929
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: Is there? Season two?

930
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: I hope? So, I don't know. We're on strike, but

931
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: ends they'll let me know that little thing.

932
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Are you happy with the reception?

933
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,479
Speaker 1: People? Critics have loved it. I couldn't be happier there.

934
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: I just watched watch more people watched it. I mean,

935
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: television has changed so much. Yes, everybody used to watch everything.

936
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: I'man still a lot of millions and millions of people

937
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: watching what I write. And then it's six hundred thousand

938
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,280
Speaker 1: and oh that's good, right, it is right.

939
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: Well, it's not too late to watch it, by the way,

940
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: And the numbers still count.

941
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: I never still count as it's getting and you know what,

942
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: I haven't even heard what we've what we've done on

943
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: amc US, which I think was a big part of

944
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: how people watched it.

945
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: How I watched it, Good Lucky Hank with the incredible

946
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: Bob Bon and Kirk and Kirk.

947
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: He's so good.

948
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 2: How is uh? I can't ever say her name? And

949
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: I really like Murray, Yes he knows. Yeah, I love her.

950
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, not typically funny like she she's

951
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 2: on those shows that are not typically so funny. She

952
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: is so delightful. And obviously my old friend Cedric, not obviously,

953
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: but Cedric, your Borough, Dietrich Botter, and many many more. Congratulations,

954
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 2: thanks on that.

955
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: It's been fun to do and I think, really I'm

956
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: happy with how it came out, you.

957
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 2: Know, good.

958
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: I just want people to see it. Yeah.

959
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 2: Good. How is it? To go back to my original question,

960
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 2: working with Aaron? Was there a good there?

961
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 1: So? It was a lot of fun there is so

962
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: we were from these different worlds. Yeah, and we would

963
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: argue forever, like hours and hours we could argue, and

964
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 1: then when we got to the page we would agree

965
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: so easily.

966
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 2: Argue on a setup.

967
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: We were what a scene should be, how to organize it,

968
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: like all the rules, all the ways that we put

969
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: together a scene were very different. Okay, ways that we've

970
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: been taught, the things we would value first as we

971
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: got to a place, and then it was just kind

972
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: of wild that we realized, Okay, we just got to

973
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: stop talking and put things down, and that's where we

974
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: really liked each other's writing, past scenes, back and forth easily.

975
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: It became very very easy. Actually nice.

976
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that combination those differences sometimes you find real gold.

977
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: And I think the aesthetic and feeling of the show

978
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: is so hard to describe because it is something special

979
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: and different and new. So congratulations on that.

980
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: Thanks. It was new. It was different, like we didn't

981
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: have a model. Yeah, I couldn't point to another show

982
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: saying this is what we're doing.

983
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which different is good?

984
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: It is, it is. I think it's why we're having

985
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: a tough time finding I just need that audience to

986
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: come check out the show. It's good. It's really good.

987
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 2: Check it out. Check it out for Paul and for

988
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: me and my future role on season two. Yeah, the

989
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: writers strike, How is it different and the same as

990
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 2: what we went through on the Office in two thousand and.

991
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: Eight, Let's see. I mean both times we're striking for

992
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: something very clear. Yes, this time feels different in that

993
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: even if we win, it's not gonna be enough. Yeah,

994
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't anybody's fault, Like the companies didn't get together

995
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: as an oligopoly and decide, hey, let's let's screw the

996
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: writers and make everything six to eight episodes instead of

997
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 1: twenty two. But that's at the heart of it, because

998
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: we were the bottle that we were paid was per

999
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: episode based on twenty two to twenty four episodes a year.

1000
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: In success, that's right. So now in success it's still

1001
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: six or eight episodes. Still takes a year to do.

1002
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: Especially I mean, if you're the showrunner and you're the

1003
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: salary just went to a quarter to a third, So

1004
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: nobody's fault. That's the way the marketplace went. But we're broken.

1005
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: A quarter of what we're making is not enough. So

1006
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: it's clear what happened. It's clear. It's clear what's wrong.

1007
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: But you know, it's still we're fighting for these incremental gains, right,

1008
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: just a few percentage points away actually in the deals.

1009
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: So I don't know what's I don't know what the

1010
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: future is going to be.

1011
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, there's two issues, and you know

1012
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 2: I can speak to it because it's it's all the same.

1013
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 2: It's directors, it's writers, yeah, factors, but it's that, and

1014
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: it's it's it's middle class actors and writers making a

1015
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 2: living off residuals which went to zero.

1016
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: Basically which went to zero. That's the other big thing,

1017
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's where we should all be

1018
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 1: aligned with. All these three guilds should just get together.

1019
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: Let's make the strike about residuals. I have a theory

1020
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: that I I mean, I had a proposal that I

1021
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: told them that don't seem to be acting on it.

1022
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: What was it? It was just like, if the show

1023
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: is being offered by a streamer for a month, that's

1024
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: an airing, and that should be a network payment, like

1025
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: straight out like what we were making. It was great before, right,

1026
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it was working. It was working, it was working.

1027
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: So take that airing. You know that they did that

1028
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: whatever payment it was, and it got less and less

1029
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,479
Speaker 1: each time it was aired. But fine, keep the same

1030
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: payment structure every month the streamer offers it. It's an airing,

1031
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: and we should get a residual right based on that

1032
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: old scale, and get rid of this, get rid of

1033
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: this idea that like then it should somehow be tied

1034
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: to downloads. I think that's our downfall there.

1035
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a very very real problem. Everybody. You

1036
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: know the last writers strike that was one hundred days.

1037
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 2: I think it probably could be two hundred or three

1038
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 2: hundred days this time, but wow, I think they're going

1039
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 2: to come to an agreement. Well, middle class actors and writers,

1040
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 2: you can't survive anymore. You can't. You can't survive. You can't,

1041
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm talking about face. If you talk

1042
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 2: about the actors faces that you know on television that

1043
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 2: used to get through sometimes a year of not finding

1044
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 2: much work based on work that they had done and

1045
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: that was still being seen on television. Well now you

1046
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: could make an argument that their work has continued to

1047
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 2: be seen even more and they can't qualify for health insurance. Yeah,

1048
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: this is this is a significant. This is a significant

1049
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: and nothing has changed. Nothing has changed about the work

1050
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: or how many people are seeing it or any of

1051
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: that stuff. The only thing that has changed is the distribution,

1052
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: and that's a problem.

1053
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1054
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 2: So there you go on that note, pick up a sign,

1055
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 2: and go walk down Sunset Boulevard. I'm so happy for

1056
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 2: you and Lucky Hank. I'm so happy for you that

1057
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 2: you have and are continuing to do work that is interesting,

1058
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: that is changing the face of television, continuing to change

1059
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: the face of television, and I just I love you,

1060
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 2: I really do, and I.

1061
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: Thank you love you too.

1062
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 2: I hope we get to do it again sometime. Yes,

1063
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: find something else, or I'll find something and hire you

1064
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 2: as an actor. Okay, that'll be maybe that'll be the switch.

1065
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 2: Always interesting, never a dull moment. Paul Eberstein, Thanks Paul,

1066
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: thank you.

1067
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: That's great.

1068
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 2: Paul, thank you so much. It was. It was so

1069
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: great to talk to you again. You are engaging, you

1070
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 2: are enlightening, and well you make me laugh. Everybody please

1071
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 2: check out Lucky Hank, not just for Paul, but for yourselves.

1072
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: You won't be disappointed. And while we're on the subject,

1073
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: I do want to take a moment to let you

1074
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: guys know the writer strike. This is a This is

1075
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: a very big deal. And because the writers are on strike,

1076
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 2: as I believe they should be, it is impacting everyone

1077
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 2: who works on film and television. Nothing is being filmed

1078
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 2: right now, so that means makeup artists, camera up raiders, gaffers,

1079
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 2: production assistants, caterers, everyone is right now is out of work.

1080
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: We're at seven weeks and like I said with Paul,

1081
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 2: I think it could be much longer. So if you

1082
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 2: want to support the strike and the writers and quite frankly,

1083
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 2: eventually the actors consider making a donation to the Entertainment

1084
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 2: Community Fund. This helps support all types of entertainment workers

1085
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 2: who are affected by the strike. Entertainment Community Fund look

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01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 2: it up and if you're not in a position to

1087
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 2: donate right now, take a look at the WGA website

1088
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: for more ways that you can help. Thank you for listening.

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01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 2: You know the crew well, They're very important to me

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01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 2: and I want to make sure they are supported as

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01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: much as we all can during this difficult time. Best

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01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 2: wishes to all of you. Stay safe out there and

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01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted

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01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 2: and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer,

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01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 2: Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers

1096
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 2: are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent

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01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sammy Katz.

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01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 2: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one

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01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: and Only Creed Bratton