Speaker 1: On the dol Cast. The questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Jamie please, Jamie, please,
Speaker 1: Jamie wait. Let' trying to get Jammy please, Jimmy please, Jimmie,
Speaker 1: Jamie wait? How does it go? You have to get
Speaker 1: the cadences an iambic pentameter is baby baby, please, baby baby?
Speaker 1: I forget their order now anyway? Hi, Well, I'm dumping
Speaker 1: you anyway, so it doesn't matter. Sorry, I'm dumping you
Speaker 1: on the bridge. I deserve it, honestly, who in this
Speaker 1: movie doesn't Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante, and welcome to
Speaker 1: our I don't know where that was going to our podcast.
Speaker 1: We're okay, so we are like there's a bit of
Speaker 1: a frenetic, exciting energy to the episode today be us
Speaker 1: and we'll let you in on the biggest secret that
Speaker 1: is allowed is we're recording together today, which it were
Speaker 1: physically together with our guest. This has not happened in
Speaker 1: almost two years, and I'm truly like, I'm excited, and
Speaker 1: I also like it's like weird and different, I know,
Speaker 1: and we have such and we have such an like
Speaker 1: there's so much to talk about today too. On top,
Speaker 1: and we watched the movie together and our guests made
Speaker 1: was incredible dinner. Twice Caitlin got ice, scream, I got wine.
Speaker 1: That's just okay, And and we're here, we're together. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's all very excited, truly. So what is
Speaker 1: the podcast about. It is our podcast in which we
Speaker 1: examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, we use
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test as a inspiration, a jumping off point
Speaker 1: to initiate a larger discussion. And the Bechtel Test of
Speaker 1: worse is a media metric created by a queer cartoonist,
Speaker 1: Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Beckdel Wallace test. It requires
Speaker 1: the version that we use that two characters of a
Speaker 1: marginalized gender have names, they speak to each other, and
Speaker 1: that conversation is about something other than a man, and
Speaker 1: ideally it is a meaningful, narratively relevant conversation. Right, um,
Speaker 1: And today, I mean I think we we uh, we
Speaker 1: have a movie that's been requested for many years. We're
Speaker 1: very excited to be covering it, and even more so
Speaker 1: than the movie. We have a guest who is I mean,
Speaker 1: so amazing. But even as it pretends to this show
Speaker 1: record breaking guests shattering through through things, we didn't realize
Speaker 1: we're possible, I know. And we should be presenting her
Speaker 1: with a jacket that we promised a year ago. We
Speaker 1: had plenty of time to get this jacket, but we
Speaker 1: sucked up. It's because we actually contracted some moths to
Speaker 1: make some silk for the jacket. And it's a supply
Speaker 1: chain issue and the moths are on strike and that's
Speaker 1: this whole thing, and we want to reach in equitable
Speaker 1: contract with them. Yeah, so it's all good. Jack us
Speaker 1: on the way, Like, where is this going? As soon
Speaker 1: as you said moths, moths make silk? Do they? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a spider thing. Oh my god. Wait I just
Speaker 1: started to be like, am I oh no worms silk world?
Speaker 1: No moths do they? They they'll just tear it up
Speaker 1: cheap wine. And now I think that moths make silk.
Speaker 1: That's okay, Well, Kenneth, that's why we don't have a jacket,
Speaker 1: because I hired moth Yeah, Thatstmas and they're on strike. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they're like, why are you asking us to do
Speaker 1: I can't And they're like, you need to be paying
Speaker 1: us more because we cannot physically do what you're asking. Wow,
Speaker 1: they've got a subcontract with the worms and that costs money.
Speaker 1: I'm gott in the middle of God and this is
Speaker 1: the life of a she e o and it's turns
Speaker 1: out moths don't make silk um well. Recovering, recovering, She's
Speaker 1: gotta have it today six film Vice Spike Lee and
Speaker 1: we're bringing back the whole time. I really fumbled your intro,
Speaker 1: but Kaitlin, you have the correct I've god, yes, I've
Speaker 1: got all the details. She is a Vulture comic. You
Speaker 1: should know she's got some headlining shows coming up in
Speaker 1: February on the East Coast. You know her from our
Speaker 1: episodes on How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Casino Royale,
Speaker 1: among others. It's Kenny smoably five timer, five time. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited you're back. Welcome to l A. By the way,
Speaker 1: do you I told you guys it was because sketches
Speaker 1: was rescheduled, but really it was because of this here
Speaker 1: to do this I love this pot, let's do it.
Speaker 1: We've really reached s to your podcast where we fly
Speaker 1: our guests out. We flying guests out and don't say that.
Speaker 1: People will request to be um excuse trip, Like, oh
Speaker 1: well no, but but we were so stoked they are here.
Speaker 1: It's still I'm still like acclimating to be in the
Speaker 1: same room with other you know, it's like I have
Speaker 1: to look over here, and then I have to look
Speaker 1: over here. We were doing this for years, I know,
Speaker 1: and it and I've lost the skills, but we are covering.
Speaker 1: She's got to have it. We just watched it together
Speaker 1: two times in a row. We had a two course meal. Um,
Speaker 1: and here we are and we're doing great. All right, Denise,
Speaker 1: what is your history? I was like, how does this
Speaker 1: show here? But I'm too excited. I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: I wonder what's going to happen. I shouldn't get us
Speaker 1: your your history, your relationship with this movie. So I
Speaker 1: saw this movie for the first time in college. I
Speaker 1: think I took my first film course junior year and
Speaker 1: we watched this And I'm beginning to think that the
Speaker 1: guy just had us watch movies that he liked. Because
Speaker 1: we watched this movie in the two thousand and five
Speaker 1: Pride and Prejudice and maybe like two other movies, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't understand what this class was. But
Speaker 1: we watched that movie and we talked about it and
Speaker 1: like in the history of like black and white New
Speaker 1: York movies, where we talked a little bit about what
Speaker 1: the Allen as well, and I was like, oh, wow, okay,
Speaker 1: well I like this more than that. Yeah, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: nice Jamie. What about you? What's your relationship? I had
Speaker 1: ever seen this movie. Um, I I knew it was
Speaker 1: like it was one of those I don't know, I
Speaker 1: have a very poor track record with watching oh toour movies.
Speaker 1: I get overwhelmed, and I feel like will bring so
Speaker 1: much to tours that they love that I I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're probably right. And then I never watched the movie. Um,
Speaker 1: which is why, like I never watched a Wes Anderson
Speaker 1: movie before this show, Like I've seen very little, like
Speaker 1: all of the tours of this era, I hadn't seen
Speaker 1: and um, I've seen a number of Spike Lean movies now,
Speaker 1: but I hadn't seen this one. And so I saw
Speaker 1: it for the first time with you both, and I
Speaker 1: was really on board with it for a for a
Speaker 1: chunk and then and then and then it was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. Um, But there's I mean, I'm I
Speaker 1: generally like really enjoyed it, and I think it's like
Speaker 1: I mean, especially for like the way it was made too,
Speaker 1: It's just like kind of an unbelievable accomplishment. I'm excited
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Long story short, I hadn't seen it.
Speaker 1: Caitlin same, I've never seen this. Yeah, I had seen
Speaker 1: other Spike Lean movies, but this one, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It just never came across my desk. Your dask there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Caitlin's desk. It's just full right now. Accurate. Yeah, thanks,
Speaker 1: there's um. But yeah, I watched it for the first
Speaker 1: time a few days ago, doing knowing that we would
Speaker 1: watch this, and I just had to be extra prepared.
Speaker 1: But and then I started watching the series as well
Speaker 1: because this correct and I got like four episodes into that,
Speaker 1: and I have a little bit of like stuff to
Speaker 1: mention about the series at some point. But yeah, generally
Speaker 1: I enjoy this intellectual property, be it the movie or
Speaker 1: the TV series. But yeah, I'm also excited to talk
Speaker 1: about it. I'm very Yeah, there's so much, especially I
Speaker 1: don't know, like Speke Lee is such a fascinating figure two,
Speaker 1: and it's like he's one of the few oh Tours
Speaker 1: that I feel like is very willing to interact with
Speaker 1: conversations about his past work in a way that most
Speaker 1: men are. Like, No, I was right, which I mean,
Speaker 1: we were just talking about one of them. What Allen
Speaker 1: is an excellent example of someone who has made a
Speaker 1: movie in this aesthetic style and refuses to acknowledge any
Speaker 1: of the problems with this passwork. And that's the most
Speaker 1: problematic thing about him. Um. But in any case, I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to talk about this movie and and the history.
Speaker 1: Should I just dive into the recap and we'll go
Speaker 1: from there. Yeah, let's do it. All I still can't
Speaker 1: get over this. I know so wild. I have to
Speaker 1: make sure here it's that's so nice. Okay. So we
Speaker 1: open on some still images of Brooklyn taken by Spike
Speaker 1: Lee's brother. Spike Lee's family is very present in this
Speaker 1: movie movie. Then we cut to Nola Darling played by
Speaker 1: Tracy Camilla John's. She's waking up in bed and then
Speaker 1: begins to directly address the camera, saying that she wants
Speaker 1: to clear her name. She considers her self normal even
Speaker 1: though other people have called her a freak. And then
Speaker 1: she's like, but here's the deal. Then we cut to
Speaker 1: a man named Jamie over Street and the Jamie representation
Speaker 1: with this character Jamie. I think very poor Jamie representation
Speaker 1: in this movie. You bring in a Jamie character automatically,
Speaker 1: I'm rooting for them, and things really take a turn certainly.
Speaker 1: He's played by Tommy Redmond Hicks. He's also addressing the
Speaker 1: camera saying that he believes each person has only one
Speaker 1: soul mate, and for him, Nola was that person. We
Speaker 1: see a very sensual sex scene between Nola and Jamie.
Speaker 1: Then we cut to Nola's ex roommate, Clorinda Bradford played
Speaker 1: by his sister. Yes, how is her name? I thought
Speaker 1: it was Joy, but then it's Jually she's telling us
Speaker 1: that when she lived with Nola, there'd be all these
Speaker 1: strange men in their apartment that Nola was having sex with,
Speaker 1: and it caused day falling out between Nola and Clorinda,
Speaker 1: and then put a pin in that character because she's
Speaker 1: not gonna be back for so long. One of the
Speaker 1: problems with this movie, it's like, let's introduce a woman
Speaker 1: and then disappear her. Can I don't want to interrupt
Speaker 1: the we can, but the first scene, the first sex scene,
Speaker 1: Jamie is so sweaty, and to pick that up in
Speaker 1: low light, in black and white, that he's truly dripping
Speaker 1: sweat on this poor woman. You're right, that is can
Speaker 1: You pointed out all these incredibly insightful things about shooting
Speaker 1: on film as we were watching this, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be really hard to like, you have to
Speaker 1: be sweating a lot for it to pick up through
Speaker 1: so many yes things. I was just like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: poor her, because she didn't look that sweaty. Like she
Speaker 1: touches his back and you can see like droplets move,
Speaker 1: moving and being spread out over skin. And I was like, look,
Speaker 1: not all Jamie's have sex like that. Some Jamie's are
Speaker 1: very dry. It's also weird because they almost not everywhere,
Speaker 1: not where it counts, but in other areas. You know,
Speaker 1: it's fine, but they would have only been simulating six
Speaker 1: So like, why is he so sweaty? Was there some
Speaker 1: was there someone like with a spray bottle? Like maybe
Speaker 1: we need to make this realistic. Maybe that yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean not to shame sex sweaters. Your
Speaker 1: body is your body, but it was a lot of
Speaker 1: sweats of sweat. There humans, human bodies, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of naked ones in this movie. Um, okay,
Speaker 1: So Nola tells us about how men come up with
Speaker 1: some really off putting pickup lines. But Jamie was different.
Speaker 1: And then we see the scene where they first he
Speaker 1: had that. He was absolutely not different and in fact,
Speaker 1: was maybe even weirder than you see. This really funny, um,
Speaker 1: this really funny montage. Oh my god, I can't remember
Speaker 1: any words today. For the listeners. I was starting to
Speaker 1: ken he said the word alter and I was in
Speaker 1: my notes four different times. It says Nola's meaningful shelf
Speaker 1: and I'm just suffering. Um. But yeah, that the montage
Speaker 1: of like shitty pickup lines, but with the guys who
Speaker 1: were like locking eyes with the camera and trying to
Speaker 1: like fuck you through this. It's just so funny. It's
Speaker 1: really good. Some of those lines have not changed. I
Speaker 1: live in Brooklyn now, and I'm like, yep, he still
Speaker 1: lives there. He still lives here. This guy definitely still here.
Speaker 1: What's up. He's just fifty five now, he's hanging out
Speaker 1: at the same bars. Yeah, this movie is thirty five
Speaker 1: years old. Came out in eighties six, which is also
Speaker 1: the year I came out. Wow, nasty way to put that.
Speaker 1: I came out of my mom's I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: you could specify what kind of coming up, but Laurie,
Speaker 1: you know you're listening anyway. Okay, So right, Jamie meets
Speaker 1: her by spotting her while he's waiting for the bus
Speaker 1: and then following her to a to a fun jazz
Speaker 1: soundtrack by Spike Lee's dad. He goes from what I
Speaker 1: presume to be j Street Metro Tech down Fulton Mall.
Speaker 1: These are all New York places, but you can still
Speaker 1: go shopping there if you want to, and that it's
Speaker 1: like they're not like right beside each other. Just to
Speaker 1: be clear, they're like So he's following her for a while.
Speaker 1: He goes from the f entrance and he walks down
Speaker 1: this Fulton Mall road to an entrance of the two three. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's totally different train lines to get Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can relate, and I understand same you. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: but did you live in Manhattan? I did. I lived
Speaker 1: in East Harlem. Then I take back the that's normal, Okay.
Speaker 1: So then we meet Mars Blackman played by Spike Lee himself.
Speaker 1: He talks about how Nola was a freaking the sheets
Speaker 1: quote unquote, and he's like, well that's something that men want, yeah,
Speaker 1: but not for our wife. You can say the most
Speaker 1: vile things in character, and he's so lovable, like just
Speaker 1: you're just like I can fix him. Yeah. He's also
Speaker 1: I put this in my notes, he's more attractive than
Speaker 1: the other guys, like more than Jamie, more than everyone
Speaker 1: in that weird montage. And it was just kind of
Speaker 1: like what a self centered thing to do as the director,
Speaker 1: to be like, is he hotter than me? Well he's not.
Speaker 1: In the picture of it, No way would happen'd stand
Speaker 1: next today? I thought that that was no. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a good use of power. I
Speaker 1: would be like, no one hotter than me in the movie,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look amazing. Well he got over that because
Speaker 1: in the show everyone is the most beautiful person you've
Speaker 1: ever seen, but he's not it, and he stopped being
Speaker 1: people kept getting hotter and hotter, and he's like, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna stay back here, I feel But Spike's hot.
Speaker 1: It's like to this day, he's hot. He looks the
Speaker 1: way he did in this movie. So then we cut
Speaker 1: back to Jamie over Street, who mentions a woman who
Speaker 1: seems to be interested in Nola, though Nola denies that
Speaker 1: anything that's going on between them. Then we meet this
Speaker 1: woman Opal gil Strap. Everyone you said this while we
Speaker 1: were watching. Every character in this movie has such a
Speaker 1: good movie name, Like it's so movie it's great. Nola
Speaker 1: asks her what it's like to have sex with a woman,
Speaker 1: and Opel is like, well, you should just try it
Speaker 1: parentheses with me, which Nola does not do. Then we
Speaker 1: meet Greer child's played by John or Canada Terrell, which
Speaker 1: is an even faker name somehow. Oh my god, I
Speaker 1: need to like put a pin in that and be like,
Speaker 1: just name you give your kid the middle name Canada,
Speaker 1: and just see what happens. What happens, like, see how
Speaker 1: they turn out. You know, that's fun, probably gonna be cool,
Speaker 1: you know, like I feel like it will elevate someone,
Speaker 1: not a middle not a middle girl, Nada. He talks
Speaker 1: about how he molded Nola into a refined young woman.
Speaker 1: He's very judgy and elitist. He has a perm he does,
Speaker 1: and a series of suits that he wears. I think
Speaker 1: each and every time in a situation that that does
Speaker 1: not call for it. Yeah, not at all. Every Mars
Speaker 1: is wearing a jersey of some kind. Yeah. I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but Thanksgiving at a studio apartment, you don't
Speaker 1: need to don't wear a suit. He don't. And just
Speaker 1: for the listeners, A PERM in the way that black
Speaker 1: people use it, not in the way that white people
Speaker 1: use it, which makes hair curlier. A PERM in the
Speaker 1: way that it relaxes the hair, a relaxer or a texturizer. Okay,
Speaker 1: now you guys got someone else would be like, I
Speaker 1: don't notice, like Sigourney Weaver used to do. Honestly, it
Speaker 1: kind of meets in the middle there because his hair
Speaker 1: has a little bit of wave to it that some coirrels.
Speaker 1: There are some Sigourney roles. Yeah. Then we see a
Speaker 1: sex scene between Greer and Nola, which is mostly him
Speaker 1: taking his clothes off very slowly and folded. That was
Speaker 1: I like. When I got there watching that scene, I'm like,
Speaker 1: not enough sex scenes are funny. I agree. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: then Jamie gives Nola a birthday gift he had hired
Speaker 1: some dancers to do a dance scene. That is the
Speaker 1: only scene in the movie that's in color, because the
Speaker 1: rest of the movie is in black and white, which
Speaker 1: I guess was I read a little more about it,
Speaker 1: and I guess that Spike Ley was really into MGM
Speaker 1: musicals when he grew up, and so that was like
Speaker 1: his MGM musical moment. He wanted to have like a
Speaker 1: musical dance scene because that was like what he liked
Speaker 1: growing up. But I thought that was really cool. Nice. Also,
Speaker 1: the song that the dancers are dancing too is about
Speaker 1: howla Fox a bunch of dudes. Unfortunately, the song absolutely
Speaker 1: sucks ship. It's not that sorry Mr Lee, Mrs Dad,
Speaker 1: but I don't like it. He's listening. His name was
Speaker 1: Bill Bills Alive. He's ninety three years old and kicking.
Speaker 1: When I get back to Brooklyn, I'll reach out and
Speaker 1: I'll say, but it's also just wild. That's the song
Speaker 1: that they're dancing to. That like about something that Jamie
Speaker 1: is very threatened by. He's like, yeah, my girlfriend is
Speaker 1: sucking a bunch of other dudes, And I constantly bring
Speaker 1: up how I hate that, but I wrote a song
Speaker 1: about it. I do think that like ties into I mean,
Speaker 1: especially because we watched it back twice, and watching that
Speaker 1: scene back the second time knowing where Jamie's storyline goes,
Speaker 1: is like, this is a very fucked up way to behave.
Speaker 1: But even so, it's like so much of this movie
Speaker 1: is like knowingly so this isn't even a criticism of
Speaker 1: Just like different men with different backgrounds and different personalities
Speaker 1: lash hang out at the same woman for not giving
Speaker 1: them what she wants, even though she repeatedly tells them
Speaker 1: that's not what she's going to do. And it's just
Speaker 1: like they become more and more conniving and like strategic
Speaker 1: and expensive like what he composed and like rented out
Speaker 1: space and hired dancers. They had to rehearse, probably to
Speaker 1: criticize her at her like that was her birthday President,
Speaker 1: but hey, you funk a lot and I don't like it.
Speaker 1: Happy birthday, and you're just like this is so much
Speaker 1: work anyways. Meanwhile, Greer is recommending that Nola see a
Speaker 1: sex therapist because he thinks that she has a sex
Speaker 1: addiction because but and she thinks that because she's not
Speaker 1: giving him what he wants. Yes, then Nola invites her
Speaker 1: three boyfriends over for Thanksgiving dinner so that they can
Speaker 1: all meet each other, and again they're all quite reatened
Speaker 1: to buy each other. Can we discuss how this seems
Speaker 1: like a nice thing to you and a truly terrible
Speaker 1: thing to wee. I was like I would do that.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I think we really learned about each
Speaker 1: I truly, like in a good friendship way where Kenneth
Speaker 1: and I were like, oh wow, this is the stuff
Speaker 1: of nightmares. It's like, this is kind of a sexual fantasy.
Speaker 1: It's true, but you know, it's good to know now
Speaker 1: we know each other and now so facilitate that. You know,
Speaker 1: I will if one of your ex is or currents
Speaker 1: is like, hey, we'll do that for your birthday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank Yeah, We'll get all your ex is in the
Speaker 1: room and then be like we're going to see ourselves exes.
Speaker 1: You have to have partners to have an ex Okay,
Speaker 1: now it's getting personal. I'm gonna no anyway. So they
Speaker 1: have Thanksgiving dinner together and then they all play Scrabbled together.
Speaker 1: That's my favorite part list. Okay, So then Nola has
Speaker 1: a dream that Jamie's greers and Mars's girlfriends all come over.
Speaker 1: Accused Nola of stealing their men and then set Nola
Speaker 1: on fire, but it's just a nightmare. Then Jamie confides
Speaker 1: that he started to see another woman and that he's
Speaker 1: not like Nola and he can't see multiple people at once,
Speaker 1: so she has to make a choice. So she's still
Speaker 1: kind of like, as far as he sees it, she
Speaker 1: is stringing him along, so he leaves her. Then Opal
Speaker 1: tries to make a move on Nola while she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm having a tough time. I know I'm not working
Speaker 1: out with the guys. This is the moment, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and like does fully surprise kiss Nolah, who is not
Speaker 1: responsive to the kiss at all, and then it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you should go uh. Then Nola calls Jamie and tells
Speaker 1: him to come over, she really needs him. Then he
Speaker 1: does him over and trigger warning, he rapes her. Unclear
Speaker 1: if the movie really understands what's happening or not, which
Speaker 1: is like the whole discussion will have yes. Then Nola
Speaker 1: reconnects with her former roommate Clarinda, she breaks up with
Speaker 1: Greer and Mars. She goes back to Jamie and asks
Speaker 1: him to take her back, which he presumably does, but
Speaker 1: the next and final scene of the movie is her
Speaker 1: addressing the camera one last time, saying that it didn't
Speaker 1: work out with Jamie. She's not a one man woman,
Speaker 1: and she's like, you know, this is my mind, this
Speaker 1: is my body. We can kind of unpack the whole
Speaker 1: monologue later, but she gives this like powerful monologue and
Speaker 1: then she gets into bed by herself, and that is
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and then we will come back to discuss, and we're
Speaker 1: bad back in the same room. While we're still all
Speaker 1: here together. Wow, we didn't leave. Where shall we start?
Speaker 1: Is anything jumping out? There's so much to talk about,
Speaker 1: I know, I guess just to kind of generally speaking,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that it is a movie about a woman
Speaker 1: who likes to have sex. She wants a number of
Speaker 1: different partners, something that like most people judge her for.
Speaker 1: But as she's constantly staying in the movie like this
Speaker 1: is my life, my body, my choice, and ultimately like
Speaker 1: the movie allows her to do whatever she wants. She's
Speaker 1: not judged by the movie. She's judged by the other characters.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just like it's her setting the record
Speaker 1: straight and showing people that she's not some like quote
Speaker 1: deviant or like quote freak, and that that's a perfectly
Speaker 1: fine thing for a woman to have a large sexual appetite.
Speaker 1: I have a weird question who is Like I know
Speaker 1: Spike Lee is the maker of this movie, but the
Speaker 1: person behind the camera has like even an interaction with
Speaker 1: Spike Lee where he's like bone in, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: like this, so it indicates that there is someone there,
Speaker 1: And I I was just like, what is this? That's
Speaker 1: a really good question. I don't really know the answer,
Speaker 1: like who was who was supposed to be making this?
Speaker 1: And is it because this is such a strange thing
Speaker 1: that this woman has sex or like yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: I didn't totally get that. I didn't even I think that.
Speaker 1: I think I that didn't even register for me because
Speaker 1: it's so normal for someone to talk to like talking
Speaker 1: head and avoid now where it's like what was the
Speaker 1: office being filmed for? Um, I don't know. I didn't
Speaker 1: even think about that, and like a woman whose sexual
Speaker 1: habits are so abnormal for that we're making a documentary
Speaker 1: like I WHOA, I don't know. And then because I
Speaker 1: asked that partially because at first I was a little
Speaker 1: bit confused about the chronology because everyone's scenes where they
Speaker 1: are looking directly to Cameron talking seemed to be happening
Speaker 1: after the events of the film, right they're telling the story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so then they jump back and I'd be like, wait
Speaker 1: where part of me was like maybe I'm just like
Speaker 1: not smart enough, but like I was like a little
Speaker 1: bit thrown in some scenes like when is this is
Speaker 1: this when we see her sleeping with these different people?
Speaker 1: Is this before the other thing? Oh, this is all
Speaker 1: happening simultaneously. Okay, No, I think you're too smart because
Speaker 1: I didn't even then, didn't even occur to me. I
Speaker 1: was just like boeing, Yeah, the way that like a
Speaker 1: reality show will have, like the talking head interviews where
Speaker 1: they're talking about something that clearly happened in the past,
Speaker 1: but they're talking about it like it's currently happening, where
Speaker 1: it's like Kim is like Chloe obviously has an issue
Speaker 1: with shirt and like which could be a person or
Speaker 1: a shirt, and then and it's like making it seem
Speaker 1: like this just happened or like they're just talking but
Speaker 1: it's like clearly it's weeks later, but the tense of
Speaker 1: it talks about like I don't know. Yeah, but now
Speaker 1: that con that's a great question as far as like
Speaker 1: who is like the characters who are directly addressing someone
Speaker 1: who is presumably asking questions, who is that person? Who?
Speaker 1: What is that entity? We don't have to answer, but
Speaker 1: that is a really good question. I feel good about myself.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think especially like having to
Speaker 1: like repeatedly put myself in the mindset of this movie
Speaker 1: and these themes coming out in six it's like that
Speaker 1: is a pretty huge thing to have happened and to
Speaker 1: have been extremely successful. And we'll talk about the production
Speaker 1: of this movie. Basically this movie was made for like
Speaker 1: very very very little money and then ended up making
Speaker 1: seven million dollars in nineteen eighties money and like became
Speaker 1: this huge thing and like launched Spike Lee's career and
Speaker 1: the fact that his first movie was about the sex
Speaker 1: life of black woman who was very empowered and like
Speaker 1: was I don't know, Like it's like this just didn't happen.
Speaker 1: Like it's really cool. And I think, like from like
Speaker 1: a male otour, I've we got to think of a
Speaker 1: better way to say that, because it feels bad coming
Speaker 1: out of my mouth, but like from from an otur
Speaker 1: who's a guy, you know, A first movie where it's
Speaker 1: like Spike Lee puts a lot of his own himself
Speaker 1: in his main character, who is a woman, and like
Speaker 1: gives her the agency he would give himself in that
Speaker 1: like where it's like there's just like details of Spike
Speaker 1: Lee's young life that are in Nolah's where it's like
Speaker 1: he's raised by artists and like I was raised with
Speaker 1: this very strong sense of artistic integrity and like was
Speaker 1: you know and what you can tell because his family
Speaker 1: is literally in the movie supporting his art and contributing
Speaker 1: their own art into it, and it's like those are
Speaker 1: all qualities that he gives to Nola And I feel
Speaker 1: like that's like I don't want to like over credit.
Speaker 1: But also it's like you just don't see it a
Speaker 1: lot of like a male or turn not one to
Speaker 1: one ing themselves into a movie, which as I feel like,
Speaker 1: I mean, oh, tours in general are kind of just like,
Speaker 1: well here I am, this is me pretty interesting, right,
Speaker 1: And it's like he's like, you know, thinking, I don't know, yeah, imagine.
Speaker 1: I totally agree. Although that said, would I like to
Speaker 1: see a movie about a like very sexually free and
Speaker 1: empowered woman having been written and directed by a woman. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I would like um because they're like, there are specific
Speaker 1: things about this movie that like aren't great, they're very
Speaker 1: of the time, but the general promise I can still
Speaker 1: get behind, like a dude like come in Spike Lee
Speaker 1: for you know, like not having such an enormous ego
Speaker 1: that he ye what it is, because it's like, I
Speaker 1: mean the scenes that are between women in this movie,
Speaker 1: of which there are not many. I you know, even
Speaker 1: if I didn't know this is a Spike Lee movie,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, I don't think this was written by
Speaker 1: a woman? Does I'm not feeling that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I do want to say before we moved past it
Speaker 1: that a apartment has twenty foot ceilings at least full windows,
Speaker 1: multiple windows. I looked for an apartment in Brooklyn at
Speaker 1: the beginning of last year, and they would be like,
Speaker 1: you have one window. Okay, it's the living room window.
Speaker 1: And we actually built a wall halfway through the window
Speaker 1: so that technically the bedroom also has a window, which
Speaker 1: is required by law. Okay, So the idea that this
Speaker 1: woman has, like I wasn't counting, but I did. I
Speaker 1: think I clocked at least like six windows, twenty ceilings,
Speaker 1: enough space for a queen size bed to have a
Speaker 1: whole altar built around it. And that's not well phantom
Speaker 1: of the opera style, like burning candles. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a big old metaphor, but it's dangerous. It's dangerous. I
Speaker 1: believe the word is meaningful shells and it's overlooking the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge. Today. Today they would have that would be
Speaker 1: that would have been divided into like four one bedroom
Speaker 1: apart because they would have built up the floor like
Speaker 1: millions of dollars now and she lives there by herself.
Speaker 1: As someone who does layouts in magazines, I wished her
Speaker 1: I think, so, yeah, she's a graphic designer and it's
Speaker 1: like I do. I'm like, I wonder it sounds like
Speaker 1: based on your description that it was also unrealistic when
Speaker 1: it came out. But I wonder how unrealistic, because I
Speaker 1: think it's hard. How do I put this? Now? White
Speaker 1: people live in Brooklyn, and I guess in the fifties,
Speaker 1: based on the movie with Churcheronan they did too, but
Speaker 1: like for a while, right for a while, they did
Speaker 1: it heavily, heavily gentrified. Yeah, yeah, so I was like,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe this is sucked up, but we're like white
Speaker 1: people so afraid of black people that they were like, no,
Speaker 1: not even with good real estate. No, I wouldn't do it. Sorry, Nope,
Speaker 1: not gonna do it. Just there is some commentary in
Speaker 1: the show in the in the series that got adapted
Speaker 1: from this movie about like because it takes place in
Speaker 1: the same neighborhood. But there's a lot of commentary online gentrification,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot more like class commentary and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. So a lot of the things that I
Speaker 1: don't care for about the movie get course corrected in
Speaker 1: the show. Although the show is not perfect, and I've
Speaker 1: read some criticism about that that I was like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: good point, but does it have the language of like polyamory, ethical, nonmonogamy,
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Yes, So in the show, Nola Darling
Speaker 1: identifies as a sex positive, polyamorous pan sexual okay, got it, okay,
Speaker 1: which does not happen in the movie. And I and
Speaker 1: I don't even like personally fault Spike Lee for that.
Speaker 1: That just wasn't popular. Lee understood language and not that
Speaker 1: it wasn't being discussed, but it wasn't being discussed in
Speaker 1: popular movies. Yeah, I mean should we should we talk
Speaker 1: about that element of the movie. Yeah. Again, Like, this
Speaker 1: is a story about a woman who like embraces her
Speaker 1: large sexual appetite. It's not like demonizing a sexually liberated
Speaker 1: woman the way that like whole genres of movies do,
Speaker 1: Like we talked about like film noir, this happens in
Speaker 1: a lot of like horror slasher movies. But this is
Speaker 1: just like a character study about a woman who likes
Speaker 1: to have sex. She's extremely open not only about her sexuality,
Speaker 1: but like with her partners, about the other partners. She
Speaker 1: has the names giving together like I yeah, and again
Speaker 1: it's like I'll qualify this by saying I'm not polyamorous,
Speaker 1: and I might not get things right, and I apologize
Speaker 1: if so. I want to understand more. But it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting to see a character who, like Nola is so
Speaker 1: it's it's part of what makes the three men so
Speaker 1: frustrating is Noah is extremely straightforward. She's very honest, Like
Speaker 1: even in moments where in my head, just with movie brain,
Speaker 1: I think she's going to lie she doesn't like and
Speaker 1: there there's a there's a moment where she's in bed
Speaker 1: with Jamie and Mars calls her and they have a
Speaker 1: quick talk. She hangs up. Jamie says, who was that?
Speaker 1: And in my movie brand I'm like, she's gonna lie,
Speaker 1: but she says it was Mars. I was like, she's
Speaker 1: giving you all the information. She tells Mars, Mr. Police,
Speaker 1: I gave you all the clues. She's literally writing a
Speaker 1: snowman note every morning, noon, and night, multiple people so much.
Speaker 1: Sometimes she's reveling in it, just being like when he's like,
Speaker 1: do you want to go to the Caribbean with me?
Speaker 1: And she's like, I don't think I could stand being
Speaker 1: alone with you for more than for two weeks and
Speaker 1: a time, and she's like smiles and she said it
Speaker 1: like you're the worst. I was like, damn. But she
Speaker 1: like she's very honest and upfront with all of her partners,
Speaker 1: and so the fact that they are like in that
Speaker 1: whatever like mental loop of like let me try the
Speaker 1: same thing over and over even though I have all
Speaker 1: the information I need and I'm expect a different result.
Speaker 1: It's like until they become angry at her for something,
Speaker 1: listen like they weren't listening, and they trust that they
Speaker 1: know her better than she knows her, and it's this
Speaker 1: thing that's like the underlying assumption is like you're saying that,
Speaker 1: but you don't really mean it. And I'm going to
Speaker 1: go based on because I know you so well, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna assume what your actual intentions are. I'm going to
Speaker 1: assume what you actually mean, and I'll go based on
Speaker 1: my assumption. And when you don't do the things that
Speaker 1: I assumed, I will accuse you of being sick. Like
Speaker 1: in the case of Greer, I mean, that's like something
Speaker 1: that really I mean it is. It's I don't think
Speaker 1: it's like callously played for laughs. I think it works
Speaker 1: in the way it's presented. But it's very clear because
Speaker 1: the three men in this movie are just like in
Speaker 1: different ways, also embarrassing and like hard to watch. Um.
Speaker 1: But Greer, I mean his I mean, he has he
Speaker 1: has a lot of stuff going on, but like he's
Speaker 1: very very classist. He is insulted that um, that Nola
Speaker 1: would have sex with someone of a lower class than
Speaker 1: he does. It clearly really really bothers him. So it's
Speaker 1: like you just watched all these different characters find ways
Speaker 1: to attack each other and the woman that they are
Speaker 1: saying that they're in love with and to shame her
Speaker 1: into being with them exclusively. And there's a scene where
Speaker 1: Greer's new approach is that he's going to say that
Speaker 1: she's addicted to sex and that something is wrong with her.
Speaker 1: And that's something that comes up again again with Nola.
Speaker 1: That the movie for the most part, and but like
Speaker 1: the most part, seems aware that it's like the people
Speaker 1: accusing Nolah of deviants are projecting their own insecurities on
Speaker 1: to her. She's not deviant. She is a horny person
Speaker 1: who is being very honest, like, so what do you
Speaker 1: want from her? She's giving She's giving you all the clues,
Speaker 1: Mr policemen Um. But in that scene, like Greer says, like,
Speaker 1: I think you need to see a doctor, Like cut
Speaker 1: to Nola, I'm like, why did Nolah agree to go
Speaker 1: see the doctor? That was a rushion I had of
Speaker 1: Like she clearly knows, but she like whatever, if she's
Speaker 1: appeasing him, whatever it is. She goes to the sex therapist,
Speaker 1: who's also this very like comedy character and very like
Speaker 1: I feel like in the way that a lot of
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties and even like two thousand's and sometimes
Speaker 1: two thousands tens therapists are like stylized of like they're
Speaker 1: very arrogant and they're talking down to you and they
Speaker 1: think they know it's best for you. But even so,
Speaker 1: even though it's like you have this like therapist who's
Speaker 1: like n y U accreditation is very prominently displayed on
Speaker 1: the wall, and it's like when I Spike Lee went
Speaker 1: to n I, I'm sure that's a loaded thing to
Speaker 1: do whatever, But even so, the arrogant therapist is like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with her. She's a perfectly healthy person.
Speaker 1: Cut to Greer being like women doctors right, like so
Speaker 1: just like these men could not have more information, and
Speaker 1: Nolan is being I think like in some cases over
Speaker 1: really generous with her energy to like put their minds
Speaker 1: at ease and to accommodating. She's I'm just like who accommodating? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Because they're either like accusing her of saying she's sick,
Speaker 1: she's a freak, she's a sex addict, saying things like
Speaker 1: she's not capable of loyalty or devotion or commitment or love.
Speaker 1: Even they're all threatened by each other, and just like
Speaker 1: they're constantly attacking her for things that again, she's always
Speaker 1: been extremely upfront about and that they just refused to
Speaker 1: understand because, like he said, cans, they are making assumptions
Speaker 1: about her and they think that they know her better
Speaker 1: than she knows herself. But I also think that they're
Speaker 1: probably they're just like pulling from stereotypes about women in
Speaker 1: general police because that's not allowed anymore. They're like, we
Speaker 1: didn't have all the clues where they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: just like the idea that like women want marriage and
Speaker 1: babies and to have a very domestic life and to
Speaker 1: want it. So from the moment you see Jamie, you're like,
Speaker 1: this guy wants to be a wife, guy so fucking hard,
Speaker 1: which is just like and there's nothing wrong with that,
Speaker 1: but the fact that he's like weaponizing that and projecting
Speaker 1: that onto a person who keeps telling him that's not
Speaker 1: what she wants, at least at this phase in her life.
Speaker 1: Because I do like how the script gives us like
Speaker 1: little insights into into Nolah's life, where like she hints
Speaker 1: it like I want a family someday, but I just
Speaker 1: that's not where I'm at right now. That's not how
Speaker 1: I want to live right now, and so have five
Speaker 1: kids right which I'm like, well, run that back and
Speaker 1: see how you feel in a couple of years. She's
Speaker 1: in her like mid twenties. You know that'll scale down
Speaker 1: over time. But even so, it's like she repeatedly was like,
Speaker 1: that's not where I'm at right now, Like I don't
Speaker 1: I want to it's so frustrating. I want to unpack
Speaker 1: her like closing monologue. Sure, so she starts by explaining
Speaker 1: that the celibacy thing didn't work out because she had
Speaker 1: told Jamie that she was gonna be celibate for a while.
Speaker 1: And then she says that she shouldn't have gone back
Speaker 1: to Jamie in the first place, implying that things didn't
Speaker 1: work out with him, and she's absolutely correct that she
Speaker 1: shouldn't have gone back again. And then she says about Jamie,
Speaker 1: he wanted a wife, a mythic, old fashioned girl next door.
Speaker 1: But it's more than that. It's about control my body,
Speaker 1: my mind. Who is going to own it them or me?
Speaker 1: I am not a one man woman. And then she
Speaker 1: goes on to say, you know, so there you have
Speaker 1: it from a number of people who all claim to
Speaker 1: know what makes Nola Darling tick. And then she says,
Speaker 1: I think they might know parts of me dot dot
Speaker 1: dot and then she gets into bed and the great
Speaker 1: I really love the ending, and it comes after such
Speaker 1: a tumultuously frustrating ten to fifteen minutes before that. It
Speaker 1: is shocking to me that he sticks the landing at
Speaker 1: the end of something that Okay, so should we do?
Speaker 1: Do you have more to unpack on that just to
Speaker 1: say that, like, I'm pleased that that is like the
Speaker 1: final note of the movie, that that's like the button
Speaker 1: we end on, because again, like the movie had been
Speaker 1: building up that we're seeing her, like we see the
Speaker 1: men that she's with getting worse and worse as the
Speaker 1: movie goes on. She's getting more and more frustrated with them.
Speaker 1: She breaks up with all of them at one point,
Speaker 1: but then gets back together with Jamie in a decision
Speaker 1: that we all find baffling. But then for the final
Speaker 1: moment to be like, Yep, that was a mistake. I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have gone back to him, Um, setting the record straight.
Speaker 1: This is who I am. It's about me, my body,
Speaker 1: my mind, my choices. I own all of this. So
Speaker 1: I was very pleased that that's like Kenny's I mean,
Speaker 1: the more that he's like, I'm just going back to
Speaker 1: what are they filming her for? Because that brings me
Speaker 1: back to I was just looking at I had some
Speaker 1: of the opening monologue in my notes, and she starts
Speaker 1: by saying, I want you to know the only reason
Speaker 1: I'm consenting to this is because I wish to clear
Speaker 1: my name. I'm like, so whoever has a vested interest
Speaker 1: in her having more than one boyfriend? Like it's so confusing,
Speaker 1: But I do think like those whatever that the movie
Speaker 1: very intentionally begins and ends in the same place, and
Speaker 1: I like, there's now I find the beginning of that
Speaker 1: monologue at the start of the movie to be I
Speaker 1: have questions, but she ends it on like some people
Speaker 1: call me a freak. I hate that word. I don't
Speaker 1: believe in it. Better yet, I don't believe in labels,
Speaker 1: which is like another great thesis statement for her character.
Speaker 1: And then also when any other time you cut to her,
Speaker 1: like talking head in her bed, she's really like reading
Speaker 1: these men very very clearly, where she's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: I found two types of men, the decent ones and
Speaker 1: the dogs. She calls them weak, she calls them all
Speaker 1: these like and I feel like it's implied in that
Speaker 1: montage that she's so aware that all of these men
Speaker 1: are shitty that she's just like, yeah, I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: in no rush to settle down with any of these guys.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, Like, I I like how she is. She
Speaker 1: has like those moments, and I wish that she got
Speaker 1: I mean, she does get a lot of opportunities to
Speaker 1: stand up for herself to these men, but they just
Speaker 1: stick around. And it's like to the point where I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why she keeps talking to them. I
Speaker 1: don't know why they're still hanging around. We gotta break
Speaker 1: up this group. It's not working because there are moments
Speaker 1: where it's like when Greer is aggressively like you are
Speaker 1: sick for having sex with people who aren't me, and
Speaker 1: she she like fires right back, and it's like, well
Speaker 1: fuck you, I'll never see you again basically, But then
Speaker 1: she goes to the doctor anyways, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: this is a little confusing. I love the scene when
Speaker 1: she does finally break up with Green at the end
Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm so, He's like, you don't mean
Speaker 1: any but you're the worst. You don't know anything. They
Speaker 1: don't like woman. It was like, Wow, he's a terrible person,
Speaker 1: but he was I think maybe one of my favorite
Speaker 1: characters in this but yeah, because like they're on the
Speaker 1: roof and he's like, come to the Caribbean with me
Speaker 1: and she's like no. He's like whatever, you it's right now.
Speaker 1: You gotta tell me yes or now. And she's like no,
Speaker 1: and he's like, okay, you don't have to rush, like
Speaker 1: you let me know. By the way, took some time
Speaker 1: think about in the same way where it's like in
Speaker 1: that scene where she's like, okay, I'm having sex with
Speaker 1: too many people. I'll start by not having sex with you.
Speaker 1: He's like, well that's not rush. I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe I only have sex with me. I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, there. The writing of the movie is
Speaker 1: so fun and like we we kept talking, I mean
Speaker 1: whatever Mars's character, how he can't not repeat back what
Speaker 1: it's just been said to him or what also what
Speaker 1: he just said. Um, it's so good, Like all the
Speaker 1: characters are so distinct and it's so like again it's
Speaker 1: like you don't want to like hand it to a
Speaker 1: man for identifying male behavior too much, but it's like
Speaker 1: it is so funny to me how and funny in
Speaker 1: the bad way, But how like all three of these men,
Speaker 1: they're so different, but they all have a different version
Speaker 1: of the same problem, and the way that it manifests
Speaker 1: is very different, which is just like what you're saying.
Speaker 1: They think that they know what this woman wants better
Speaker 1: than she does, which is of course not true, and
Speaker 1: so it works out for none of them because why
Speaker 1: would they? I just wish um before we move on
Speaker 1: to like the heavy heavy discussion, I would like to ask,
Speaker 1: did you guys feel like there were any scenes that
Speaker 1: set up these relationships in a positive way? Like I
Speaker 1: feel like all of them were set up in like
Speaker 1: a here's clearly a failure, or like this is like
Speaker 1: how it's incongruous, But like, was there a moment and
Speaker 1: I think it's supposed to be after he stalks her
Speaker 1: down the street and they have a conversation. Is that
Speaker 1: the moment we're supposed to see them together and have
Speaker 1: something positive that we then root for. That was one
Speaker 1: of the moments in the movie where I didn't necessarily
Speaker 1: feel like the movie knew that that was fucking mixtreme.
Speaker 1: That movie doesn't understand that because there's like dodel do
Speaker 1: do do do? And there the man actively stalking and
Speaker 1: even the shots are kind of like leering and you're
Speaker 1: seeing her from behind like it's true crime footage. And
Speaker 1: then at the end, Nola's just like waiting for him
Speaker 1: near a subway stop and she's like like TV, you
Speaker 1: were following, you get here, and then he's like, I
Speaker 1: gotta see you again. You're like, this is not this
Speaker 1: is not good. So what happens here is that before
Speaker 1: we know how they met, we see a scene with
Speaker 1: them together. It's a very like sensual scene where they're
Speaker 1: like making love. I'm so sorry I just said that
Speaker 1: I'm a virgin again. We grew. I'm sorry. It's cos
Speaker 1: a lie. I get that, but it's but and she
Speaker 1: says something like, you know, most men don't know how
Speaker 1: to like touch a woman, but like you're really good
Speaker 1: at it. Whatever his massage, look, his hands are angles,
Speaker 1: you can get the strength to get like that was awesome.
Speaker 1: So I felt I thought as though that their relationship
Speaker 1: was like from the first scene, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this does seem like mutually respectful, and you know, it
Speaker 1: seems sweet and nice. And then that's when Nola is
Speaker 1: like she makes a comment like it seems that men
Speaker 1: are taught not to be in touch with themselves and
Speaker 1: their true feelings. I was like, cool, yes, generally very true.
Speaker 1: Then she says, and then you should hear some of
Speaker 1: the things that men say. And then that's when we
Speaker 1: get that montage of a bunch of different men delivering
Speaker 1: very corny pickup lines. There's a hot dog joke in there.
Speaker 1: Us a certified tenage premium beef tubes steak steak. Oh,
Speaker 1: I forgot the tubes stick. I don't want to think
Speaker 1: tube when I think of a penis. I really don't.
Speaker 1: I think about tubes steak a lot. But it's not sexual.
Speaker 1: It's because that's my job. All this to say, Nola
Speaker 1: is clearly not impressed with this tactic of picking up women.
Speaker 1: And then she's like, but one guy was different, And
Speaker 1: then we cut to a scene where Jamie stalks her,
Speaker 1: and then you're like, this is the different guy. It
Speaker 1: is different, but in a horrible way. But yeah, like
Speaker 1: those guys were creepy. This guy is stalking you. It's
Speaker 1: a different I was kind of I mean, and I
Speaker 1: honestly thought we were being set up with something a
Speaker 1: little bit different with Jamie that I mean, well, this
Speaker 1: isn't a criticism of the movie. But I sort of
Speaker 1: thought it was like the premise of the movie was
Speaker 1: something that you wouldn't see in movies of the eighties,
Speaker 1: of like a woman who is not interested in a
Speaker 1: monogamous relationship and a man who very much is like
Speaker 1: that's not something you get very often. And I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: we're being set up with these characters that you know
Speaker 1: don't have the socially prescribed desires. But then Jamie just
Speaker 1: turns out to be a rapist, and so I didn't
Speaker 1: see that happening. But but I do think that that
Speaker 1: is like I don't know, I mean, it's so complicated,
Speaker 1: because I do think that in some ways, and I
Speaker 1: wouldn't include the rape scene. I just I mean, I
Speaker 1: feel at least better than Spike Lee regrets it because
Speaker 1: I think it just like complicates so much in the
Speaker 1: movie in a way that is not necessary and turned
Speaker 1: my stomach and was triggering. So but um, but in
Speaker 1: the way that like, Okay, I'm talking to this on
Speaker 1: real time. But when you're presented with a character who's
Speaker 1: like a man who wants an anogamous relationship, I feel
Speaker 1: like they're almost presented to you like they're from then
Speaker 1: on or above criticism because that's so unusual and like, oh,
Speaker 1: a man who just wants to be with one person, well,
Speaker 1: then I guess we love this guy. So the fact
Speaker 1: that Jamie wants an anogymous relationship and turns out to
Speaker 1: be a fucking despicable person like also not something that
Speaker 1: you see in movies very often. However, I think that
Speaker 1: he's still a despicable person even if you don't include
Speaker 1: a rape scene of our protagonist. That is upsetting and
Speaker 1: shouldn't be in the movie totally, because again, the whole
Speaker 1: movie is him and the other two men constantly sucking,
Speaker 1: sucking and being mean to her. It's like she sticks
Speaker 1: around even though your meat, Like, come on, it's very
Speaker 1: frustrating guys. But can we uh we got that discussion
Speaker 1: out of the way. Yeah, I you know, trigger warning again,
Speaker 1: because we do have to talk about the rape scene
Speaker 1: in this movie that I just did not see coming
Speaker 1: at all. There's been a lot written about this movie,
Speaker 1: but like this scene in particular, because it is like shown,
Speaker 1: I mean very clearly, it is a rape scene where
Speaker 1: and it's a violent rape scene. And when you mate
Speaker 1: or whatever, when when you see like that decision being made,
Speaker 1: You're like, what is even more important is like what
Speaker 1: happens in the scene after, And like, how is this
Speaker 1: movie going to handle the Because if you're making that
Speaker 1: creative choice, you better fucking know what is going to
Speaker 1: happen after and you better deal with that hugely triggering
Speaker 1: creative decision you just made. And this movie does not
Speaker 1: do that. They make you know, they make you really
Speaker 1: sit in this horrible moment for Nola and then the
Speaker 1: next scene and this just felt like a knife twist
Speaker 1: in a way that was so frustrating as a viewer.
Speaker 1: Is the only scene you get with her and her
Speaker 1: friend is her name and Clarinda who you've seen Clorinda
Speaker 1: before because she's participating in this grad students documentary about
Speaker 1: some lady he met um and we find out that,
Speaker 1: you know, the Clorinda and no Lower roommates. They had
Speaker 1: a falling out, and then it seems like Nola reaches
Speaker 1: out to Clarinda in the fallout of this rape, and
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, maybe this is going to be
Speaker 1: a scene where let's see what happens, you know, like
Speaker 1: let's see how Nola brings it up. But she kind
Speaker 1: of doesn't like what happens is very I don't know.
Speaker 1: This was a scene to me that I was like,
Speaker 1: this was written by a man who did not know
Speaker 1: how to write this scene because Nolah is saying things
Speaker 1: like I think I really fucked up this time, Jamie
Speaker 1: really hates me, and Clarinda replies by saying, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't even want to know what you did to make
Speaker 1: him feel that way, and it's like they're kind of
Speaker 1: like circling around. They don't even talk about what actually
Speaker 1: happened really, and it's implied in the scene that Nola
Speaker 1: feels like what happened to her was her fault, which
Speaker 1: again is something that a lot of people who have
Speaker 1: been assaulted like feel. But this movie is not in
Speaker 1: sit in that conversation, and that's not what's happening in
Speaker 1: this scene. It's I think one of the few and
Speaker 1: like a really egregious moment of the movie being out
Speaker 1: of its own depth, Like it's just not equipped to
Speaker 1: handle this plot point and I don't understand why fucking
Speaker 1: put it there, Like it's so yeah, It's what did
Speaker 1: take me by surprise is that she then in the
Speaker 1: scene after that, I think is talking to Jamie uh,
Speaker 1: and she's saying, she's telling him that she wants to
Speaker 1: be celibate for a while he's questioning why, like this
Speaker 1: rape like prompts a change in her and like inspires monogamous,
Speaker 1: Like that happening to her is what changes her mind
Speaker 1: quote unquote between wanting to date multiple people into just
Speaker 1: wanting to date Jamie. Like it's just such a it's
Speaker 1: a dangerous creative choice to make to be like okay,
Speaker 1: and then he, I mean, he rapes her, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden she's like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: dismantling my Phantom of the Opera bed. Like there's all
Speaker 1: these symbolic things that happened to indicate that her getting
Speaker 1: raped was actually a good thing, like the wake up,
Speaker 1: She's the wake up or something like that. So you
Speaker 1: guys both saw this movie more recently. I saw it
Speaker 1: well before me too, and just how we discussed it
Speaker 1: was fundamentally different, as though like this is this is
Speaker 1: kind of like what you play with firing get burn.
Speaker 1: It was just like very much so like the discussion was,
Speaker 1: this is the wages of Hordom and if you whore around,
Speaker 1: this is what's going to happen, and just I'm so
Speaker 1: happy to rewatch it under like a not super Christian,
Speaker 1: not super like southern, not all of these other lenses
Speaker 1: that I was viewing it. So because yeah, that was
Speaker 1: And like so when she meets up with Clarinda, Clarinda
Speaker 1: is playing the upright based or the cello. It's gotta
Speaker 1: be the upright base based on the thing ring. But
Speaker 1: she's playing that song Nola, And so for it to
Speaker 1: go right from like a violent rape scene to be like,
Speaker 1: here's the theme of a movie, you know, just to
Speaker 1: the natural course of progression and the song about how
Speaker 1: she she focks around. Oh, Mike, I didn't even connect that.
Speaker 1: God that is I would love to hear. I mean
Speaker 1: the nature of the discussion you were having in school.
Speaker 1: That's like, I feel like we've had stuff like that
Speaker 1: pop up on the show quite a bit of Like
Speaker 1: just the conversation that we had like ten years ago
Speaker 1: was just so fucking wildly different. Um. I went to
Speaker 1: UM and a lot of the like modern and most
Speaker 1: of them were written when the Netflix series came out.
Speaker 1: About how this plot point was originally reviewed when the
Speaker 1: movie came out in six I think it's also very
Speaker 1: telling about just where discourse was at at this time,
Speaker 1: and and also keeping in mind that in six the
Speaker 1: vast majority of movie critics were white guys. So this
Speaker 1: was from the New York Times. In eight, he says,
Speaker 1: Mr Hicks, the actor who plays Jamie. Mr Hicks gives
Speaker 1: Jamie a depth and passion that escapes other men. It
Speaker 1: is telling that when Jamie's patience gives out and he
Speaker 1: turns rather shockingly brutal to Nola, his violence seems natural
Speaker 1: and does not diminish interest in or sympathy with the character.
Speaker 1: Uhlass review Uh, Mr Times, I don't know, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was a white male film reviewer at the at
Speaker 1: the New York Times at that time. Um. But even
Speaker 1: the fact that it's like it was such a prevalent,
Speaker 1: like it's exactly what you're describing, kinne of like, well,
Speaker 1: she took things too far, and this is what happens
Speaker 1: to women who take things too far, where it's like
Speaker 1: they just, uh, you've lost your power, where here was
Speaker 1: a way to get it back, like right, like and
Speaker 1: just implying that like yeah, he implied, like, well, of
Speaker 1: course that would happen when it's like there's not I
Speaker 1: don't think a him of this movie where she's being
Speaker 1: dishonest or not completely straightforward with him, and it is.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting because I think that there's moments in
Speaker 1: the movie where it felt clear to me that the
Speaker 1: movie was like he's getting in his own way, his
Speaker 1: false expectations and his like ego and his masculinity is like,
Speaker 1: what's preventing him from listening to her? But then but
Speaker 1: then it takes this turn at the end and like
Speaker 1: gives him the power back and then at the last
Speaker 1: second gives it back to Nola. But it just doesn't
Speaker 1: deal with what happened, and I just don't understand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: should we tell? So? Spike Lee has been asked about
Speaker 1: this in at least two interviews that I found. One
Speaker 1: was from fourteen and then another was from m seventeen
Speaker 1: when the show came out. He's he's basically it was
Speaker 1: a question that he was asked about, like, do you
Speaker 1: regret anything any to quote my favorite misspelled tattoo, any regrets? Um?
Speaker 1: So he says, it's, you know what, my biggest regret
Speaker 1: is the rape scene, and she's got to have it.
Speaker 1: If I was able to have any doovers that would
Speaker 1: be it. It was just totally stupid. I was immature.
Speaker 1: It made light of rape, and that's the one thing
Speaker 1: I would take back. I was immature, and I hate
Speaker 1: that I did not view rape as the vile act
Speaker 1: that it is. He qualifies in. There will be nothing
Speaker 1: like that, and she's got to have at the TV show,
Speaker 1: that's for sure, which it sounds like is very true, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've only seen the first four episodes, but
Speaker 1: I don't imagine. There is a scene in which Nola
Speaker 1: gets street harassed and then assaulted, and then that's actually
Speaker 1: what prompts her female friend to suggest that she starts
Speaker 1: seeing a therapist, and that therapist character becomes someone that
Speaker 1: Nola sees in multiple episodes. So that whole thing was
Speaker 1: handled differently. Is it handled perfectly? I would say no,
Speaker 1: but it is certainly handle handle better than it was
Speaker 1: in the movie. The Sorry I cut you off earlier.
Speaker 1: You were talking about what happens in the last scene together,
Speaker 1: where I think, do we get to the point where
Speaker 1: Nola does say to Jamie, like, so that's what took
Speaker 1: me by surprise? Yes, where so she calls it a
Speaker 1: near rape and she's saying that's why I'm going to
Speaker 1: be celibate for a while, or that she says like,
Speaker 1: that's you know, I'd rather not get into it. But
Speaker 1: don't you think that your near rape of me is
Speaker 1: a good enough reason. I was surprised that, yeah, it
Speaker 1: even gets mentioned and identified, although near rape is not
Speaker 1: how I would response by saying, I've never done something
Speaker 1: like that in my life, which I think implies like,
Speaker 1: well maybe if you hadn't like it just implies that
Speaker 1: she her behavior forced him to do that to her. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I agree, which so he's still acting like on that bench,
Speaker 1: he is still acting very much so like the wrong party. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the blame is on you, Nola, and you've got
Speaker 1: to convince me to let you back into my life.
Speaker 1: And then that weird slow motion shot that isn't slowly
Speaker 1: not it's not slow enough. It needed to be slower.
Speaker 1: I think that they're just like um our editing budget
Speaker 1: we ran out just walk real slow. But then Kenisi
Speaker 1: pointed out there's a bird that flies past, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't I don't like it. I was like,
Speaker 1: I get the spirit of it as a budget movie,
Speaker 1: but yeah, So in conclusion, the handling of the assault
Speaker 1: in this movie was really wretched, and but at the
Speaker 1: very least Spike Lee acknowledging that it was a mistake,
Speaker 1: saying he regrets it didn't view it the way it
Speaker 1: should be viewed. You know, It's more than you get
Speaker 1: from most director you're back in their work. Like again,
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't mean to over do it, but
Speaker 1: I just like, no one is willing to have that discussion.
Speaker 1: It's so frustrating, Yeah, exactly. And it's another like ego
Speaker 1: thing where most you know, towards who are men, are
Speaker 1: unwilling to acknowledge that anything they ever did was wrong
Speaker 1: or a mistake or they're constantly defending their choices and
Speaker 1: that is horrible, like to the detriment of their life.
Speaker 1: Like it's just so um. Yeah, So I'm glad that
Speaker 1: Spike Lee is willing to have the discussion and just
Speaker 1: and also like apply it to the next version of
Speaker 1: of the of the intellectual property almost. I know, I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't want to say I p out loud.
Speaker 1: That makes me feel ill. It's the world we're living in, baby,
Speaker 1: I p universe. Baby. Let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's banish Jamie from the should should we have? And
Speaker 1: I think we've kind of covered me And I was like,
Speaker 1: but I'm leaving. Let's Spanish Jamie. I'm Jamie. I'm I'm tired.
Speaker 1: I'm going home. We've covered I. I think it. Does
Speaker 1: anyone else have anything for the Jamie character. I'm gonna stay.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're saying thank you. I will now call
Speaker 1: air quotes nice guys toxic nice guys, you know, I
Speaker 1: will now call them Jamie over streets because that was
Speaker 1: a wonderful example of exactly things. So like when she's
Speaker 1: talking about like how lame other dudes are who asked
Speaker 1: her out and how he was different, it is also
Speaker 1: this psychotomy that she's talking about where like air quotes
Speaker 1: nice guys, and because like the dogs are coming up
Speaker 1: to her and like you want to touch my penis,
Speaker 1: but the nice guy will literally stalk you, take everything
Speaker 1: you do personally, and then like, yeah, that's that's a
Speaker 1: nice guy. That's the sweet guy. I think it almost
Speaker 1: like it. It almost feels like it ties to like
Speaker 1: the nerd thing too, of like feeling like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: not the traditionally extremely egotistical masculine personality. Therefore, you should
Speaker 1: be thrilled that I'm interested in you and in fact
Speaker 1: you belong to me and like, and he gets so
Speaker 1: I think that he like, yeah, like almost overestimates the
Speaker 1: value of his performance of niceness. Nice guys always do that. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not like those other guys. I'm a different kind
Speaker 1: of unstable. And if you don't respond to me the
Speaker 1: way that I want you to, I will lash out
Speaker 1: in ways you couldn't imagine. Like it's just it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not like a one to one there, but it
Speaker 1: does feel like just in terms of a level of entitlement,
Speaker 1: it feels kind of similar. And and then with Greer
Speaker 1: you've got something totally different where he literally refers to
Speaker 1: her as an object in his opening monologue, where he's like,
Speaker 1: she was the clay, I was the sculptor. Like he's
Speaker 1: literally like, women in ways are hunks of horny clay.
Speaker 1: And you make him a statue, and sometimes they don't
Speaker 1: want to be a statue. It's like it's weird, like
Speaker 1: a statue. I put her on a pedestal. Um. But
Speaker 1: we haven't talked very much about Mars, who is another
Speaker 1: fun flavor of Mars black Man. That is his name.
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying that is his name, It's true.
Speaker 1: And he's like immature misogynist like that like asogynist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where he's like his his whole thing is like mean,
Speaker 1: I think that he we're supposed to think, you know,
Speaker 1: he's like the character that's closest an age. It is
Speaker 1: more I think that it's implied that like Greer and
Speaker 1: Jamie are like in their thirties and that like Mars
Speaker 1: is a little bit younger, and like he's kind of
Speaker 1: a mess. He doesn't have a job. He's like he
Speaker 1: has more of a traditional ego where he's always like
Speaker 1: over like clearly overstating his impact on the world and
Speaker 1: like making ship up and like saying he knows famous people,
Speaker 1: but like doesn't have a job or has nothing going on,
Speaker 1: and so it's like, well, well that's not true, you know.
Speaker 1: Like the movie also immediately undercuts because he's like women
Speaker 1: who act like this is problems that they're dead, and
Speaker 1: then they do this wonderful nice thing about her family
Speaker 1: and how she was raised very well, and it was
Speaker 1: very effective commentary. Right, there's like this he says something like,
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons Nola was having all
Speaker 1: that sex is because doing all that boning. He says, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's he's the baby, He's the baby. It's because her
Speaker 1: doing that is because she has a bad relationship with
Speaker 1: her father, um, which is obviously like a very common
Speaker 1: attitude that like, you know, women have daddy issues, especially
Speaker 1: the ones that are out there fucking um. And then
Speaker 1: we cut to a scene where we meet Nola's dad,
Speaker 1: who was played by Billy spike LEAs cut from son
Speaker 1: to dad this is kind of fun um, and Nola's
Speaker 1: dad is saying how much affection and love they gave
Speaker 1: her when she was growing up. They paid for music
Speaker 1: lessons and dance lessons and all this stuff. And then
Speaker 1: right after that is a scene where Nola was like,
Speaker 1: you know, reminiscing about her childhood and the love her
Speaker 1: parents gave her and all that stuff, which is obviously
Speaker 1: like dispelling the issue, right the Yeah, yeah, that like um,
Speaker 1: mars is this belief that he has, you know, like
Speaker 1: horny women seek the affection of men because they have
Speaker 1: a daddy issues. Women are the devil. And I think
Speaker 1: that like he takes that opportunity to kind of like
Speaker 1: go a step further to in a way that isn't
Speaker 1: totally necessary, but I kind of liked it. Um of,
Speaker 1: like what Mars is implying is like she's not marriage material,
Speaker 1: which he says in his opening monologue. He is like, oh,
Speaker 1: you you know, you want to be around a freak,
Speaker 1: but you don't want her to be your wife or
Speaker 1: that's whatever. I think. That's like basically what he says.
Speaker 1: And he's implying that, like, oh, this woman is not
Speaker 1: family material. And then at the end, Nola is like,
Speaker 1: and I want a family someday. I had a great
Speaker 1: childhood and I love my parents and they love me,
Speaker 1: and we see that that's true. And then she's like,
Speaker 1: and I would like kids of my own someday. And
Speaker 1: so it's like it's like, well, this guy is just
Speaker 1: fucking wrong. What a goof Um he also uses the
Speaker 1: very ablest our word word and seen he's in so
Speaker 1: eighties word and then yeah, that was kind of all
Speaker 1: I um Mars, Okay, yeah, that's all I had to
Speaker 1: I mean I also think just like he in the
Speaker 1: same way that the others guys do, just like can't
Speaker 1: take the hint and keeps pushing back on stuff. Like
Speaker 1: there's one scene where he I don't even really fault
Speaker 1: him for this, but he's just like, I love you,
Speaker 1: I think of falling in love with you, and she
Speaker 1: sets the boundary again. She's like, well, that's not where
Speaker 1: I'm at, Like we are like, yeah, yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: you feel, like hit the bricks kind of and then
Speaker 1: he said he accepts it in the moment, but then
Speaker 1: in the next scene is still like, I hate these
Speaker 1: other guys you're dating, like protecting on her again and
Speaker 1: like it's just trying to find all these Like he
Speaker 1: and Jamie have this bizarre rapport between the two of
Speaker 1: them because Greer is like so classes towards Jamie and
Speaker 1: uh and and Mars that that's a nonstarter. They're they're
Speaker 1: never going to talk about. Jamie and Mars kind of
Speaker 1: have this like weird anger based friendship misogyny being because
Speaker 1: they meet up again. They talk about basketball, they talk
Speaker 1: about Larry Bird is ugly, they have a whole I
Speaker 1: thought it was a fun way for spect Lea to
Speaker 1: get his basketball opinions into his first movie. Um I'm
Speaker 1: doing that. I know He's like you might as well,
Speaker 1: but you know, to the point where Mars is like, oh,
Speaker 1: let's split her up by days of the week, and
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh my god, you're so sick. And
Speaker 1: so we did not involve her in this conversation. No,
Speaker 1: of course not, because he's like, you get it for
Speaker 1: four days, I get it for three. And it's like
Speaker 1: that means that Nola has to see one of you
Speaker 1: every day of the week, Like what about the alone
Speaker 1: time she needs? And also, I mean and I think
Speaker 1: that like his character is such a goof that it's
Speaker 1: like he's half joking, but he's not totally, which doesn't okay,
Speaker 1: he'd be like cool and just again I read I
Speaker 1: get weekends. I told you that on a it's awesome. Wow.
Speaker 1: Men are so funny, they're so cool, they have such
Speaker 1: good ideas. And we talked about the other women in
Speaker 1: the movie. With the other women in the movie, there's
Speaker 1: not that much just say, it's like, let's just roll.
Speaker 1: Let's we get Clarinda, who is the former roommate that
Speaker 1: Nola had, and right away, yes, um, they've stayed friends,
Speaker 1: but she's like I couldn't live with her anymore because
Speaker 1: she was just always having different dudes over at the
Speaker 1: apartment and then they, like you said, Jamie, they don't
Speaker 1: even interact until the end of the movie. They looking
Speaker 1: past the scene that had just happened right before it.
Speaker 1: If you can kind of like just isolate that scene
Speaker 1: between Nola and Clarinda, you know, it's fairly sweet. It's
Speaker 1: you know, Clorinda seems like a supportive friend. Although and
Speaker 1: I think that it's like and I don't wanna because
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think that the movie is like operating
Speaker 1: on this level of like thinking of how women relate
Speaker 1: to each other. But I was like, I could see
Speaker 1: Clarenda's point of view from like an annoyed roommate stance
Speaker 1: of like, if your roommate is having really loud sex
Speaker 1: all the time to the point where it's interrupting with
Speaker 1: your quality of life, that's a discussion. But it doesn't.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like he wasn't maybe thinking about it
Speaker 1: that hard. It made it sound like you're having too
Speaker 1: much sex, and it bothers me as opposed to like
Speaker 1: I'm you know, maybe and I'm not pulling from my
Speaker 1: own experience here. Maybe you podcast for a living, and
Speaker 1: so audio quality is actually kind of important here and
Speaker 1: then someone's just fucking, fucking, fucking you know against and
Speaker 1: you're just like, well, this is actually a problem, and
Speaker 1: then it's a discussion and then you and then you move.
Speaker 1: I will admit I would be pissed if I was like, Hey,
Speaker 1: I truly don't feel safe because of the I don't
Speaker 1: know any of these men. I know none of their tales,
Speaker 1: and they're in my bathroom when I'm in a robe
Speaker 1: and I'm coming in and given what I know that
Speaker 1: you've told me, and for that roommate, you just be
Speaker 1: like you're not down, You're not cool. I'm on the
Speaker 1: lea's I would be kind of like, You're like, well,
Speaker 1: can we have a discussion? And it also did I
Speaker 1: mean again, I just I'm like, is it even worth
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I just think that like maybe Spike
Speaker 1: Lee is not thinking about it that hard and it's
Speaker 1: like women don't like when other women have sex multiple
Speaker 1: sexual partners. Like I think it's more like he is
Speaker 1: assuming it's a monogamy brain thing and I could be
Speaker 1: wrong there. That was my read of it. Well, we
Speaker 1: would know maybe if we had just seen more scenes
Speaker 1: between Nola and Clarinda, which which we don't get. I
Speaker 1: will say this is another thing that the series improves on,
Speaker 1: where we meet several of Nola's friends who are women.
Speaker 1: Some of them even have like arcs throughout the show,
Speaker 1: although I did read some criticism about that and other
Speaker 1: aspects of the show. Again, so it's I don't want
Speaker 1: to be like the show is a perfect and it
Speaker 1: fixes all the problems of the movie. Um, but it
Speaker 1: certainly does improve upon them. Um. But yeah, with Nola
Speaker 1: and Clorinda, we like, well, yeah, it really almost nothing.
Speaker 1: It's the thing. It's like to the point where I
Speaker 1: guess we do have to like be grasping at straws
Speaker 1: here to be like, what does she mean when she
Speaker 1: said that? Because you just have no information of why
Speaker 1: she said that. Um. The other women that we see
Speaker 1: in the movie, we see the therapist for one scene, um,
Speaker 1: which is kind of more of an extended joke about therapy.
Speaker 1: I thought of like, it's not a completely negative interaction,
Speaker 1: but it's like whatever, I just thought it was like
Speaker 1: playing on a lot of like therapists be like this
Speaker 1: and they're always like they think they're so much smarter
Speaker 1: than you, and you don't want to go back, which
Speaker 1: is I mean there's way more egregious versions of that commentary,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't my favorite. And also it's like that
Speaker 1: the character never comes back. Sure, um yeah. What struck
Speaker 1: me about that is the therapist Dr Jamison says something like,
Speaker 1: you know what we're Jamie energy on this. Yes, seriously,
Speaker 1: she says, what we're all looking for is love and
Speaker 1: if you if what you want is total female sexuality,
Speaker 1: the beautiful sex organ is between your ears, not between
Speaker 1: your legs, and it's like your head right, it's just
Speaker 1: like again, as Nola clearly states she's not necessarily interested
Speaker 1: in love. Again, she's like, I want a connection with someone, sure,
Speaker 1: and I want to have sex with people. Yes, it
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be love. So I was like, alright,
Speaker 1: sex therapists seems like you don't really understand your drop
Speaker 1: that well. But then I do believe that eighties sex
Speaker 1: therapists we're saying. I was like, I don't think it
Speaker 1: still existed in the eighties. Yeah, I think they're still
Speaker 1: out there. All of them have gotten no additional training,
Speaker 1: and I've talked to them as they're arapists. They don't
Speaker 1: give you booster packs. I was told I had a
Speaker 1: porn addiction because I watch porn when I masturbate. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. Yeah. He was like, do you think you
Speaker 1: I think we should start talking about addiction here, and
Speaker 1: I was like, addiction addiction because I wanted Okay, I
Speaker 1: there there's I do think that that's well. If we
Speaker 1: have therapists who listened to the show, I would actually
Speaker 1: be curious of like, are you encouraged to get booster
Speaker 1: packs because and I know that that's not an act term.
Speaker 1: And then I'm talking in pokemon terms because my i
Speaker 1: Q is too, but um, but I have curious because
Speaker 1: it's like my mom is a teacher, and teachers have
Speaker 1: to get booster packs all the time to remain employed,
Speaker 1: like that you have to be con like to the
Speaker 1: point where it's like, you know, a burden to the teacher,
Speaker 1: of like you have to be constantly taking new classes
Speaker 1: and learned about new educational techniques, and like, if you're
Speaker 1: the same teacher you are when you start and when
Speaker 1: you end, you weren't doing your job correctly because you
Speaker 1: should be getting booster packs all the time. Therapists should
Speaker 1: be getting but are maybe some of them are, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'll look at the a p A guidelines
Speaker 1: for certification please hit us up. And that's just for psychologists.
Speaker 1: It's like different for psychiatrists and counselors. Right. I have
Speaker 1: the same question for medical doctors. Are you getting updated
Speaker 1: information because it seems like sometimes you really aren't. They're
Speaker 1: getting boosters from the pharmaceutical companies. Okay, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to go with a whole I guess what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is teachers are godlike figures and they're paid significantly less
Speaker 1: than therapists and doctors. Um, not that we don't love
Speaker 1: therapists and doctors in in theory. Listen to the episode
Speaker 1: that you were on on Sludge, a podcast that I
Speaker 1: did retire from. I mean, and we say this, you know,
Speaker 1: as God's True Soldiers podcast podcasters. So you have to
Speaker 1: take what we're saying really seriously because we went to
Speaker 1: school for twenty years. I have a master's degree in
Speaker 1: screenwriting from Boston University and I have a master's degree
Speaker 1: in film production from Boston University. We do hate to
Speaker 1: bring it up. That was okay, I feel like ship
Speaker 1: and I think that I went to the university that
Speaker 1: graduates people who actually work in the field. Emersy, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't disagree. I had a terrible experience there. I
Speaker 1: don't like it. Um, that's okay. I I enjoy saying
Speaker 1: it on Mike. I relish saying it Mike. I owe
Speaker 1: them so much money. Um, all right, let's talk. Should
Speaker 1: we talk about Opal? We were talking about openly? That's
Speaker 1: that's I think our last remains woman big thing, I
Speaker 1: would say, So what, as far as my interpretation goes
Speaker 1: with Opel, you have pretty standard predatory lesbian trope at
Speaker 1: play here, where Opel also says some very strange, very
Speaker 1: incorrect things about human sexuality. She says that you are
Speaker 1: neither born a lesbian or heterosexual. We all have the
Speaker 1: capacity to go either way, because those are the only
Speaker 1: two choicest sexuality goes and the most nineteen eight six
Speaker 1: like Guide dialogue, and again suggesting that sexuality is a choice.
Speaker 1: So that's of course sexuality is fluid, but um not
Speaker 1: a choice. So there's a scene early on I think
Speaker 1: they are. There are only two scenes between Opel and Nola.
Speaker 1: The first one is Opal actively coercing Nola to have
Speaker 1: sex with her, because Nola is expressing curiosity about like
Speaker 1: what is it like to have sex with a woman
Speaker 1: as another woman, and Opal is just being like, well,
Speaker 1: you could find out if you just have sex with
Speaker 1: me right now? Um as perfect perfect. At no point
Speaker 1: did they actually describe the ways in which lesbians have sex,
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering did Spike Lee know? Was he
Speaker 1: like I also wrote that, I was like, asks the
Speaker 1: question does not have a character answer question right where
Speaker 1: he just put it in the movies, He's just like,
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm listening in the original, Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: original cut his addresses at the end of the movie
Speaker 1: in because you want to write him. It's like a
Speaker 1: po box of like, if you know women have sex,
Speaker 1: do you send a self addressed stamped envelope to the
Speaker 1: following so? And then in her later scene when we
Speaker 1: touched on this, where Nolah is upset about her relationships
Speaker 1: falling apart, Ople seems to take advantage of Nola's vulnerable
Speaker 1: state and kisses her without Nola's consent, and then that's
Speaker 1: the last we see of Opal. She like walks out
Speaker 1: of this scene and the movie, so obviously that's extremely
Speaker 1: toxic to portray a queer character this way. The series
Speaker 1: again does update and improve on this, where Opel is
Speaker 1: still a character, but rather than being coercive and like
Speaker 1: always trying to get Nola to have sex with her again,
Speaker 1: Nola is pan sexual and gets into a like loving
Speaker 1: and consensual relationship with Opel for a while. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I do. I mean, I think that again, it's like
Speaker 1: when you say, like Opal's character is a stereotypically predatory
Speaker 1: lesbian trope character, like it couldn't be more true. And
Speaker 1: it also like it doesn't feel like the movie has
Speaker 1: any idea that that trope even exists. And I feel
Speaker 1: like it's because it's an otura movie that was made
Speaker 1: on such a low budget. I'm assuming that Spike Lee
Speaker 1: was not consulting with anybody about this, and so it's
Speaker 1: like the very nineteen eighties prejudices are coming to the
Speaker 1: table in a way that has a cultural effect. If
Speaker 1: your first movie made for you know, as happens to be,
Speaker 1: you know, put in the fucking Library of Congress, which
Speaker 1: I believe this movie is. Um. Yeah, I found I
Speaker 1: found that to be so frustrating. And also because it's
Speaker 1: like there's moments where it seems like the script is
Speaker 1: trying to characterize not care I mean not really characterize
Speaker 1: her very much. But there's that scene with Jamie and
Speaker 1: Opal where Jamie is so clearly in the wrong and
Speaker 1: again projecting onto Opal and yeah, he says, Opal, you're
Speaker 1: a very beautiful woman. I never would have thought you
Speaker 1: were gay, like saying things that I think the movie
Speaker 1: does recognize that he is the prejudice asshole and that scene,
Speaker 1: but then there's other but then the way that Opal's
Speaker 1: character behaves, the movie doesn't have any idea that because
Speaker 1: like Opal responds to that comment from Jamie saying like
Speaker 1: how a person looks has no bearing on their sexuality,
Speaker 1: and then he's like, yeah, I guess you're right, which
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, as the movie's attempt to be like
Speaker 1: I know about lesbians. See, but then the but then
Speaker 1: everything else about Opel's character is like, no, you don't,
Speaker 1: and then Spike clearly does not. Again it's just like
Speaker 1: it just seems like Spike LEAs out of his depth
Speaker 1: with that storyline. Um in a way that has a
Speaker 1: consequence because it's a very famous movie. UM, I want
Speaker 1: to I just wanted to give a little bit bit
Speaker 1: of context for the movie and how it was received
Speaker 1: because we were talking about this off Mike, but this
Speaker 1: movie was made for very little money. It was originally
Speaker 1: shot on a budget of around twenty ish dollars and
Speaker 1: then eventually raised enough money for it to have I
Speaker 1: guess a total budget of a d seventy five dollars.
Speaker 1: But it just mean we've talked about this with a
Speaker 1: number of filmmakers in the past, but just how marginalized
Speaker 1: filmmakers have such a steeper hill to climb to have
Speaker 1: their first project produced. Um, I forget what our last
Speaker 1: conversation about this was. And but in comparison to Ann
Speaker 1: Burt of White Male Au Tours, I think that Wes
Speaker 1: Anderson is always the one that we jumped to because
Speaker 1: it was like he got a multimillion dollar project based
Speaker 1: off of a two minute short film that he made
Speaker 1: and they're like, King, like you've done it. You're a
Speaker 1: wonder kid. Give it to his child, because I think
Speaker 1: he was like twenty six when he made his first movie,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's just like framed as like this
Speaker 1: hero's journey and Spike Lee is in his twenties when
Speaker 1: he makes this movie. But it just like listening to
Speaker 1: the significantly more difficult time that he had in getting
Speaker 1: the movie made. Um, I'm seeing here from our favorite
Speaker 1: scholarly journal Wikipedia. The original like twelve day shoot began
Speaker 1: with eight dollars from the New York State Council on
Speaker 1: the Arts, a ten dollar grant from the Jerome Foundation,
Speaker 1: and five hundred dollars from the Brooklyn Arts and Cultural
Speaker 1: Association Crafty for the day. I'm sure that's all they
Speaker 1: could have word who knows, but um, and then consulting
Speaker 1: I'd be like, keep it, use it, um. And then
Speaker 1: that wasn't enough to get the movie through post production.
Speaker 1: So then Spike Lee showed a rough cut at n
Speaker 1: y U and he said, I'm Spike Lee, and I
Speaker 1: hope you liked this film. I'll be calling you soon
Speaker 1: about money. You can give me money, which I mean,
Speaker 1: it's the money he had to. He did what he
Speaker 1: had to do. But it's all that to say it
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been that hard. I just that Wes Anderson's
Speaker 1: story always breaks my brain. It makes me so mad.
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get over it. It haunts me so yeah.
Speaker 1: But I meanfortunately this movie was extremely successful. It like
Speaker 1: made seven million dollars at the box office off of
Speaker 1: a shoe string budget and then completely you know, like
Speaker 1: launched Spike Lee's career into the stratosphere. Another word that
Speaker 1: I feel like it is a kind of like goofy word,
Speaker 1: but I meaningful sky bitch. I was gonna say with
Speaker 1: my words that I have control of her. Um that
Speaker 1: we didn't mention this when we talked about the Mars character,
Speaker 1: But this is just such a bizarre I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't even know what to do with this. The Mars
Speaker 1: black Men character was later used in Nike commercials with
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's so like someone at Nike. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of people in Nike he saw She's
Speaker 1: got to have it, and their takeaway from the movie was, Wow,
Speaker 1: Mars black Man is such a cool character and he
Speaker 1: wears Nikes. We should have him make commercials with Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan's for shoes. Like it's such a weird idea, but
Speaker 1: the commercials are really funny. Isn't okay? Correct me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong? I might be completely misremembering this. But wasn't
Speaker 1: the movie Space Jam basically made because there were commercials
Speaker 1: with again Michael Jordan's and like Bugs Bunny, and then
Speaker 1: they were like, we should make a whole movie about this.
Speaker 1: Am I is that something, or am I I completely
Speaker 1: remembering that incorrect? I don't know. I was literally like,
Speaker 1: ask Princess, I don't know. I like, I assume that
Speaker 1: Princess knows most fun facts about space jams. We might
Speaker 1: have talked. I'll just go back and listen to the episode.
Speaker 1: But I'm like that. I was like that, and if
Speaker 1: that's true for like Mars black Man in a commercial
Speaker 1: with Michael Jordan Michael Jordan in a later commercial Bugs
Speaker 1: Bunny Space Jam. Michael Jordan is an effective marketer, It's
Speaker 1: always been. But just like, I just think it's so
Speaker 1: bizarre that I don't know, Like just the cultural impact
Speaker 1: of this movie is so gigantic that a a b
Speaker 1: character from an indie movie was in a Nike conversion.
Speaker 1: That's so bizarre. I love it. I say, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: that's so wild. But like, truly, the show that has
Speaker 1: one best comedy for like two years is based on
Speaker 1: an ESPN two commercial. You know that we just have
Speaker 1: to accept Yep, this is going to be the basis
Speaker 1: and sometimes the result of art. I love intellectual property.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts on
Speaker 1: the film of two Hit? A small closing. Did you
Speaker 1: guys like her art? Her art? I thought it was
Speaker 1: very eighties, Okay, cool. I was like, I'm watching this
Speaker 1: and I'm looking at this art, and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't think this is supplementing her income to the point
Speaker 1: where she could afford this apart bit I just looked
Speaker 1: at it. I'm like, I think I literally looked at
Speaker 1: it and it it was like, I guess that's what art
Speaker 1: was like in the eighties, which is wild because I've
Speaker 1: seen art from the eighties and it doesn't look like that. Um,
Speaker 1: I've heard that is one thing that we didn't say.
Speaker 1: It's like, I appreciated it sounds like that it's given
Speaker 1: a lot more narrative significance in the TV show, but
Speaker 1: that we do know what Nola does, even though it
Speaker 1: is kind of a Cary Bradshaw situation of like how
Speaker 1: could this lead to this home? But we know what
Speaker 1: she does, and we see that it matters to her.
Speaker 1: We see her working on it, and we see enough
Speaker 1: of it that we can be like, it's not even
Speaker 1: that good. I wouldn't hang it in my apartment. Think
Speaker 1: it's not for me, but I'm happy that it's afforded
Speaker 1: her a million dollar apartment. So that's so someone's loving it.
Speaker 1: And then what was your other I've completely forgotten it.
Speaker 1: It's got I'm so sorry. My last thought was the
Speaker 1: real protagonist sosist movie is New York City. I love
Speaker 1: what don't you love? I love let her to the City.
Speaker 1: But also seriously, Spike Lee like used his own brother's
Speaker 1: photography of like Brooklyn to like mark the passage of time.
Speaker 1: I just the family elements to this movie I thought
Speaker 1: were very sweet. That's like nepotism I can get behind,
Speaker 1: because it's not even nepotism if you need your family
Speaker 1: as employees on your movie, like he had like multiple
Speaker 1: people in his family he had working as like production assistance,
Speaker 1: and it's like I will pay you if I can
Speaker 1: get the money. And so it's like it just seemed
Speaker 1: more like a I don't know, like Mickey Rooney, Judy Garland,
Speaker 1: like we gotta put on a show folks, like by
Speaker 1: any means necessary, and like got it done. And then
Speaker 1: I I mean, I hope Spike Ly at this point
Speaker 1: has paid his family for working on She's got to
Speaker 1: have it right. He is a multimillionaire. I guess my
Speaker 1: final thought is that and I'm also I'm like basically
Speaker 1: horizontal right now. I'm like lying down so much. You
Speaker 1: have started to you were eye to eye and not.
Speaker 1: Part of it is I and I might cut this out,
Speaker 1: but part of it is I have to poop so badly,
Speaker 1: and I'm just kind of like sitting here trying to
Speaker 1: like lead in it. I made those vegetables and chocked you,
Speaker 1: and I've got blowing our asses up. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: home and haven't experienced Yeah, So mostly this posture is
Speaker 1: me just holding God. Okay, let's it passes. The Bechtel says, No,
Speaker 1: I have this important thing to say that okay, okay,
Speaker 1: which is that that this is a movie again directed
Speaker 1: by a man in the eighties, a famously not very
Speaker 1: progressive time, that is mostly commenting on the toxicity of
Speaker 1: a lot of different types of men and empowering a woman,
Speaker 1: especially in a way that women have historically been so disempowered.
Speaker 1: That's very cool. Again, there were missed deps along the way.
Speaker 1: It wasn't handled perfectly in every regard, but that that
Speaker 1: is like what this movie boils down to. It's cool.
Speaker 1: I agree, And I also this was something that like
Speaker 1: was again and this is like extreme grain assault because
Speaker 1: this is what was brought up more in the time
Speaker 1: when it was first being reviewed. But a movie that
Speaker 1: focuses on the sex life of a like middle to
Speaker 1: upper middle class black women, which is like, wasn't really happening,
Speaker 1: And um, a lot of reviewers sort of made note
Speaker 1: of like many of the popular stereotypes around black American
Speaker 1: characters at this time, and how this movie just like
Speaker 1: existed outside of that world entirely, and it's like, here's
Speaker 1: our protagonist, here are three shitty dudes. Let's go right,
Speaker 1: And it always goes back to like who's making the
Speaker 1: movies that perpetuate those stereotypes shitty uneducated white people, right,
Speaker 1: and sometimes highly educated. They're like, I have so many
Speaker 1: degrees and I still have not learned what black people are.
Speaker 1: What are they? Do? You know? Any looking? And then
Speaker 1: they put their po box at the end of the movie.
Speaker 1: If you have any insight, please s A s s um. Yes,
Speaker 1: it does pass. The Bay still tests, but not too much,
Speaker 1: very much, not enough that it gets scary. I would see.
Speaker 1: It's mostly between her and Opal, and those conversations are
Speaker 1: again Opeal trying to coerce her into sex so it's
Speaker 1: not good. And then as far as our nipple scale
Speaker 1: zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through
Speaker 1: an intersectional Femis lens, oh, I would go with like
Speaker 1: a three and a half. I think for this one. Um,
Speaker 1: it's obviously getting some nippleage docked off for the extreme
Speaker 1: mishandling of the sexual assault and the predatory lesbian character,
Speaker 1: the failure to further explore Nola's relationships with any female friends,
Speaker 1: and only just like getting a very small glimpse of
Speaker 1: that aspect of her life. This is a small thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it is like related to budget stuff,
Speaker 1: but I just thought it was like interesting that they
Speaker 1: showed her dad and they made mention of her mom
Speaker 1: being alive and well but at work and like could
Speaker 1: not comment. Can we get like a shot shot that was?
Speaker 1: It would have been nice. Weird when he said that,
Speaker 1: he was like, my wife, we're still together. She's I
Speaker 1: kind of wonder if that was like a production thing
Speaker 1: of like we were supposed to but like Spike's mom
Speaker 1: couldn't make it today and so they're like he's like
Speaker 1: just say she's at working, or like if if spike
Speaker 1: Ley's mom is anything like my mom. She does not
Speaker 1: want to be photographed. So maybe she was just like
Speaker 1: I shouted at your mom's vagina on Mike today, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: what's no wonder? Oh that was the other thing. It's
Speaker 1: not about, although I do think she was like, if
Speaker 1: you can't pay me, honey, I'm gonna go to my
Speaker 1: job where I support was at work, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna take at day off to not like the rest
Speaker 1: of the family is working on your little projects, so
Speaker 1: someone's gotta go to work. But the other thing that
Speaker 1: I wanted to say is bold move to have your
Speaker 1: first movie feature like a nice close up of you
Speaker 1: sucking on a nip. That is something that it was,
Speaker 1: you know, the movies choice. I don't know, like I
Speaker 1: wasn't like I feel like sometimes when again, God, we
Speaker 1: gotta when men who make movies by themselves, there's another
Speaker 1: tendency usually when you're not inviting a lot of feedback
Speaker 1: that sometimes the sex scenes are leering and creepy and gross.
Speaker 1: I didn't think that this movie fell into that, even
Speaker 1: though I did, I mean Kidney's and I think it
Speaker 1: was a personal preference thing. We didn't love the belly
Speaker 1: button thing. I don't think it was offensive. Sticks his
Speaker 1: tongue fully into a belly button, inclined a swizzes it
Speaker 1: around belly button. I just love it. But again that's
Speaker 1: not criticism, that's just a well it didn't it didn't
Speaker 1: feel good for it. But that's you know, but that's
Speaker 1: why there's all sorts of people. That's true. Three and
Speaker 1: a half, you were saying, reminder, I have to poop
Speaker 1: no um. Yeah, so three and a half nipples. I
Speaker 1: will give one to Nola, one to Clarinda. I would
Speaker 1: have loved to see that friendship more on screen. I'll
Speaker 1: give one to Nola's mom, who presumably would have been
Speaker 1: played by Spike Lee's mom, but she was like, no, thanks,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be busy. And then I'll give
Speaker 1: the half nipple to the scene where Nola and her
Speaker 1: three lovers are playing scrabble together, which is again a
Speaker 1: sexual fantasy. I have, I will, I'll meet you there
Speaker 1: at three and a half. I think this movie is
Speaker 1: doing so much that no movie in six with doing.
Speaker 1: I think that the mistakes we have unpacked and are
Speaker 1: extremely glaring and I found very upsetting. I was gently
Speaker 1: encouraged that at least Spike Lee has you know, engaged
Speaker 1: in the discussion around it and has admitted where he
Speaker 1: is wrong, and it seems like has course corrected in
Speaker 1: his future work. I haven't seen all of his future work,
Speaker 1: but um, I don't. I don't think that this is
Speaker 1: a recurring problem for him. So I think that we
Speaker 1: sort of I want Caitlin to be able to poop,
Speaker 1: So I'll say three and a half. I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: I'll give two tenola, and I will give one to
Speaker 1: the Phantom of the Opera bed and I will give
Speaker 1: the last half nipple to New York City. M hmmm,
Speaker 1: I ever heard of it? I ever heard of it.
Speaker 1: I am gonna ride this three and a half. I
Speaker 1: think if you had asked me when I first saw
Speaker 1: it ten years ago, it was more than ten years ago.
Speaker 1: You said, like ten years ago, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I wish, I like being my agent's great, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna hurry up because I need to poop. So it's
Speaker 1: honestly fine, Okay, I really do want you to to tell us,
Speaker 1: because now we're so invested, we will sit around while
Speaker 1: you do it. And I wonder how hashtag going in there?
Speaker 1: Girl women supporting women let's get a hashtag going. Let
Speaker 1: Caitlin poop, Let's get I'll get I'll get the merch
Speaker 1: drafted tonight. I know I haven't made new Merchant two years,
Speaker 1: but I think that this is really going to bring
Speaker 1: me out of retirement. I would love that. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: would have been given it three nips when I first
Speaker 1: saw it, just because I was like, well, this seems
Speaker 1: kind of fucked up, but because we were interpreting it
Speaker 1: as her getting her comemuppets versus like her. Like it's
Speaker 1: still again very dad, but at least she has like
Speaker 1: power and agency at the end of this, and it
Speaker 1: is her story throughout. So right now three and a half.
Speaker 1: Okay to to Nola half. To Mars Blackman as a character,
Speaker 1: because that was he was in a Nike commercial. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't take that from him. He does suck, but
Speaker 1: he's also so likable as a just like Spike Leaves
Speaker 1: is extremely likable. The closing track because they do like
Speaker 1: the cast basically like introduces themselves with the slate at
Speaker 1: the end and then Spike Leaves the last one. You're like, man,
Speaker 1: he's a fun Yeah, it's fun because he's like action. Okay,
Speaker 1: my name because he's the director, and you're like, that's you, dude,
Speaker 1: is your That's like the correct amount of ego. I
Speaker 1: don't know how he struck the balance, but that is
Speaker 1: like the exact you can't go more, Yeah, you can't
Speaker 1: go more, but that was perfect. So and the that
Speaker 1: was two Mr Police, the police. I can't I just
Speaker 1: have to say something bad and then I'll give one
Speaker 1: to Okay, the remaining nipples. I can't do maths, so
Speaker 1: don't ask me to the remaining nipples. Go to the
Speaker 1: scene between well, actually all of the sex scenes, because
Speaker 1: even now, it is not super common for like a
Speaker 1: black woman and a black man to be naked together
Speaker 1: having sex, especially like neither of them is light skinned,
Speaker 1: and that's always like a thing. They're like, we got
Speaker 1: a black person, I mean, and then you can barely tell,
Speaker 1: but come on, we got one. But this is like, no,
Speaker 1: these people are definitely black. They're they're dark, dark dark.
Speaker 1: Although Spekey is the only one who doesn't show us,
Speaker 1: but and I was like, we see everyone else's but
Speaker 1: but we don't see how can we catch wow? See,
Speaker 1: Now that's the kind of ego that it's like everyone
Speaker 1: else showed there, but do you want to be in
Speaker 1: the movie or not. It's like you can't be hotter
Speaker 1: than me, and you all have to show your butts
Speaker 1: and I don't. Okay, and I'm the director, Okay, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that because I feel like she's strong, she's
Speaker 1: empowered so many other images, especially at that time, of
Speaker 1: darker skin black women, and darker skin in American sense,
Speaker 1: not in the African sense. You get it. We're like
Speaker 1: these like sex crazed, deficient people. And to show someone
Speaker 1: who's like I had a good family, I had a
Speaker 1: good childhood. I like sex. I know how I live.
Speaker 1: Is it for everybody? But this is how I live,
Speaker 1: and I'm very upfront about it. And I really, I
Speaker 1: really appreciated that she's not getting her value from them
Speaker 1: and she's having sex with which is what a lot
Speaker 1: of portrayals of black women were before that. Okay, I'm done,
Speaker 1: please go poop. Well, you gotta tell first of all,
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the show, Cannie. Tell all those
Speaker 1: other people who were like close to me in the
Speaker 1: number of times that they've been on the show that
Speaker 1: they Okay, they can try to come from me, but
Speaker 1: come on, come on, we will have to set up
Speaker 1: a duel. I will fight them. Um. So, yes, thank
Speaker 1: you for coming back for a fifth time. Always such
Speaker 1: a treat to have you. How can people follow you
Speaker 1: online and check out your stuff? Plug all of your
Speaker 1: upcoming show dates? Okay, I will, Okay, so you can
Speaker 1: find information about me at cannesemli dot com. That's why
Speaker 1: you'll see show dates and were information. Okay. First off,
Speaker 1: on Thursday's ten pm, check out my show Caitlin's Done
Speaker 1: It Twice. You're the only person who's done it twice.
Speaker 1: Make yourself smoking. It'll be a jacket good at Will.
Speaker 1: I'll get it at good Will and I'll sew a
Speaker 1: little patch on in anything. Yeah, if we gotta get
Speaker 1: I mean, you gotta figure out your union. But I'll
Speaker 1: let you know. I'm I'm busting it. So it's been hard.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the show is called Make Yourself Cry. It
Speaker 1: is on Planet Scum, which is Chris Gether's Twitch channel.
Speaker 1: I did not know those words before, but you should come.
Speaker 1: You should watch it. It's funny, it's heartfelt, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Watch the episodes of Caitlin. I think one of them
Speaker 1: is still on my Instagram, so check that out on February,
Speaker 1: come see me at club coming in New York City.
Speaker 1: I will be running my hour in preparation for an
Speaker 1: album recording. Also in Boston, February whatever, the weekend of
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day. I don't keep it in my heart because
Speaker 1: I don't have someone I love. I will be in
Speaker 1: Boston doing comedy. So come there. And then if you
Speaker 1: happen to live in Tennessee a city called Bristol, if
Speaker 1: you haven't lived there, I'll be doing a weekend there
Speaker 1: in March, so you know incredible. I bet we have
Speaker 1: at least one listener who lives in Bristol, Tennessee. You
Speaker 1: do please come because your presence will make me feel safer.
Speaker 1: I'm one of those terrible city people that is terrified
Speaker 1: as soon as I go to a place with trees.
Speaker 1: So I need women and I need black people. Please
Speaker 1: come so I feel safe. Okay, I haven't wait. Can
Speaker 1: I plug your show? I just go, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I do have to poop, but I took no. Please Jamie, no, Caitlyn,
Speaker 1: please please, Ji please, you can come see my solo show.
Speaker 1: I never I don't know why I don't play it.
Speaker 1: You can come see my solo show that I'm working
Speaker 1: on in Los Angeles at the Allegian Theater. It's called
Speaker 1: Mrs Joseph Chestnut America USA. I play hot Tag eating
Speaker 1: champion Joey Chestnut's ex wife and he steals my intestine
Speaker 1: and then I kill him and that's what that's the
Speaker 1: whole show. UM. So if you can't see it, that's
Speaker 1: what happens. But that's gonna be on February seventeen at
Speaker 1: nine o'clock at the Allegian Theater and we would love
Speaker 1: to have some betel Cast listeners there. And you know,
Speaker 1: perfect way to come off of Valentine's Day is watch
Speaker 1: a show about hot dog divorce. UM. And as far
Speaker 1: as the backtel Cast goes, you can find us everywhere
Speaker 1: that you get your social media addiction scratched. UM. We've
Speaker 1: got an Instagram, we've got a Twitter. They're both backtel Cast.
Speaker 1: You can sign up for a Patreon ak Matreon at
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash backtel Cast. You get two extra
Speaker 1: episodes every month. We're doing what are we calling it
Speaker 1: Jane Debruary, Jane January, slash Austin August, Ember, and so
Speaker 1: we're covering um ONNYA Taylor Joy Emma and Pride and
Speaker 1: Prejudice the other movie. Um, so, for everyone who's been
Speaker 1: requesting Jane Austen episodes for five years, we finally decided
Speaker 1: to listen once. Yes, and then you can get our
Speaker 1: merch at t public dot com slash the Epectol Cast.
Speaker 1: Be on the lookout for hashtag let Caitlin poop shirts.
Speaker 1: I'm going to get these texts every day. Where's my
Speaker 1: poop shirt? What an amazing friendship? Oh wow? So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's you can get our merch. Um and wow, what
Speaker 1: a what a joyful time. Our first in person recording.
Speaker 1: I couldn't have asked for a better one, probably honestly
Speaker 1: our last for a while. That's very often. We all
Speaker 1: got tested. We're all very satter, etcetera. Please don't come
Speaker 1: from me. Okay, yeah, no, we were. We were saying
Speaker 1: about this. This This just worked out perfectly. So, um, you know,
Speaker 1: happy day you're having and Caitlin's got a poop b
Speaker 1: by Nas