1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Hello Psychoactive listeners. This week on Psychoactive, We're going to 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: do something really different. Rather than me interviewing someone, I'm 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: taking the opportunity to have you here a podcast who 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: are on being interviewed. It's called Ephemeral. It's hosted by 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, who's also a producer on this podcast. Now. 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: His podcast tells stories about nostalgia, memory in the past. 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: I think you'll like it. Ephemeral is a production of 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: iHeart three D Audio for full exposure listen with that phones. 9 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: This episode of Ephemeral talks frankly about drug history, policy, 10 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: study and use. These views do not necessarily represent those 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees, and 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: should not be construed as medical advice or encouragement to 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: use any type of psychoactive substance. Slow Show, whoa what 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: always late, lugging tests, tyre phone calls a formal morning 15 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: brand brund Drund doing drugs right, how you're hitting your 16 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: answer the question brendon you're doing drugs? This exploration has 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: led into a new and dangerous area smoking grass, popping, 18 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: many's shooting speed or dropping at it is there anyone 19 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: out there who still isn't clear about what doing drugs does? Okay, 20 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: last time, this is your brain, This is drugs, This 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: is your brain. Are and drugs? Any questions? Drugs? Drugs? 22 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: Drugs from pot to cot alcohol to adderall crack cocaine 23 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: to caffeinated coffee. Almost all of us use one form 24 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: of drug or another. And even though there's a constant 25 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: flow of drug commentary coursing through our news media and entertainment, 26 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: it can be an uncomfortable subject to talk about, amplified 27 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: by the fact that rhetoric on drugs can be difficult 28 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: to trust. And that's a shame. Oh man, they are 29 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: so fascinating. Almost every department at a university could have 30 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: an entire course about drugs. If you look in the 31 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: social sciences, you could have of course all about drugs, 32 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: and anthropology, in criminology and political science, and in sociology 33 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: and in history and in economics, all six. In the arts, 34 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: you could have it in music, you could have it 35 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: in literature, you could have it in the visual arts. 36 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: So you were talking about one of the great interdisciplinary 37 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: subjects that exist out there. Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman. I've 38 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: devoted most of my adult life to working to end 39 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: the war on drugs. Started off doing that as a 40 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: professor at Princeton and started an organization called the Drug 41 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: Policy Alliance and gentlemen looked up to Ethan Nadelman, which 42 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: became the leading organization of the world advocating for an 43 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: end to the War on drugs. And then about four 44 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: years ago I stopped doing that and took a little 45 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: time off, and now I've started my own podcast called Psychoactive. 46 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: How much do you know about drugs? Well, I'll tell you, Alex, 47 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: I'm no expert on the sort of biochemistry, pharmacology aspects 48 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: of it, but apart from that, I know a lot 49 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: about drugs. I've been reading and studying and talking to 50 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: people and using drugs for most of my adult life. 51 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: I sometimes joke that growing up Jewish, my first taste 52 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: of alcohol was when I was seven days old at 53 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: my brists. I remember being nine ten years old and 54 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: going to synagogue on Saturday, and at the end of 55 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: services they would lay out the little Mona Chevit's wine, 56 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: these little tiny plastic cups. My friends and I we 57 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: would have a few of these, and we knew if 58 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: we had four or five of them. We would feel 59 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: a little tipsy and maybe fall asleep at lunch, and 60 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: then it was the whole bar mits the scene when 61 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: I was thirteen, when we all started getting drunk. We 62 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to, but you know, we'd be drinking by 63 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: ka tonics and screwdrivers. In a Jewish community in a 64 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: suburb of New York. Basically most people dragged, but I 65 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: don't remember anybody who would drink to excess. The most 66 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: powerful drug education I remember getting I must have been 67 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: in junior high school. It was actually an anti smoking set. 68 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: The Surgeon General has determined a cigarette smoking is dangerous 69 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: to your health. They brought in one of those fake lungs. 70 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: This is a smoking machine, and they connected a cigarette 71 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: to it and showed what happened to this fake long 72 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: when it got all yellow and disgusting. One thing about 73 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: this machine, it will never get heart disease or cancer 74 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: from smoking. But when it came to the other anti 75 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: drug stuff, I gotta admit I don't have any recollection 76 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: if they even did it back in the late sixties 77 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: early seventies. They must have, but I don't recall. With marijuana. 78 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: I remember being about seventeen and seeing a bunch of 79 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: my friends who were getting high and just noticing they 80 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: all kind of fell asleep. So that was not that appealing. 81 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: So it wasn't really I started college, and I distinctly 82 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: remember the first top getting high. There. I was moving 83 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: from one apartment to another. The marijuana is coming on, 84 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: We're moving a refrigerator, and you know, the whole thing 85 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: starts to become eighteen year olds laughing and almost dropping 86 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: and refrigerator down a flight of stairs. So that was 87 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: the start, and then I became a regular marijuana consumer, 88 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: but never a daily user. I had a kind of 89 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: almost anti addictive personality where you hear a lot in 90 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: the context of drugs, and indeed, the title of Ethan's 91 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: podcast is psycho active basically means mind altering. You think 92 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: there's a whole host of drugs the drug I take 93 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 1: every day of my cholesterol that's not psychoactive. Psychoactive suggests 94 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: that and somehow it's altering consciousness. Now that could be 95 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: in obvious ways, like psychedelics or like with cannabis, but 96 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: it could even be true of things like coffee and tobacco, 97 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: where when we consume them we're somewhat aware of their 98 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: subtle psychoactive effects, but we don't really notice them until 99 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: we stop doing that. The single most common one is caffeine. 100 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: Something like the world consumes caffeine, either in the form 101 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: of coffee or tea or some other plant products that 102 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: contain it. Probably the second most universalist alcohol. Obviously there 103 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: are prohibitions on it in the Islamic world, but generally speaking, 104 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: it's a fairly universal thing. And if you go back 105 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: to historic clay, you have indigenous groups all around the 106 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: world having no contact with outer societies that somehow figured 107 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: out that that piece of food or that thing, if 108 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: left to ferment and then consumed, would have quite a bang. 109 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: Marijuana has a history going back ten thousand years, but 110 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: it's not been as universally used. And then, of course tobacco, 111 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: once it came out of the Americas and made its 112 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: way to Europe and then to the rest of the world, 113 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: and because it was so remarkably addictive, really got a 114 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: kind of global use. So I would probably say caffeine's 115 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: first alcohol, second tobacco products, third cannabis for and that heroin, morphine, 116 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: other pharmaceutical opioids that are made from it. Would probably 117 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: be in fifth place. Then you work your way down 118 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: and a whole lot of other things that may be 119 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: used by tens or hundreds of millions of people, like 120 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: cot or cava from South Pacific, or beetlenut used in 121 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: South Asia, so there are more localized ones that haven't 122 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: sort of spread around the world. One of the most traditional, 123 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: if sometimes over exaggerated, applications of psychoactive substances is to 124 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: stimulate one's creative mind. I know people who are artists 125 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: and find the merril wanda really does help them on 126 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: the creative side. On the other hand, I'll tell you 127 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: when it comes to the intellectual stuff, I'll beginning all 128 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: these great ideas, they don't seem as such value the 129 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: next day when looked at in the light of day 130 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: when I'm straight Interestingly, though, with psychedelics, there are insights 131 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: that I've had on doing those the psychedelics that were 132 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: almost life transformative for me, and I'm more likely to 133 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: remember it coherently in a way as well. You think 134 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: about some of the famous people, I mean the Nobel 135 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: Prize winners, Steve Jobs and who say that but for psychedelics, 136 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: they never would have invented with the invented or discovered 137 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: what they discovered, and you don't hear that as often 138 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: with marijuana or any other drug. You know, there have 139 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: been indigenous peoples using these drugs throughout history. Ayahuasca, mushrooms, paoti, 140 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: or mescaline, the toura, the plant which can be actually 141 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: deadly poisonous, but in minimal doses can be a very 142 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: highly psychedelic type of drug LSD where the key ingredient 143 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: or good comes from a mold. There are histories in 144 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: Europe of these outbreaks of the town going crazy, and 145 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: it appears to be when this mold took off in 146 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: the local wheat or rye field. Albert Hoffman sort of 147 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: accidentally invents LST protectively and then that thing has its 148 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: kind of heyday in the fifties and s extees first 149 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: among us sort of elite strata, and then Timothy Learry 150 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: drop out of turn on Tune, and drop out drop 151 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: becomes the thing used by millions, drop out of junior executive. 152 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: Many people benefit enormously, other people just do it for yucks, 153 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: and some minority of people get really hurt by this. 154 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: And then you go into the kind of quiet age 155 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: of psychedelics, and I say, now we are in this period, 156 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: an extraordinary period in the history of human beings and drugs, 157 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: where we're having this sort of psychedelic renaissance. Part of 158 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: it is because of the work of organizations like MAPS, 159 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: the Multidiscipinary Association of Psychedelic Studies created by my buddy 160 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: Rick Doblin back in the eighties. Psychedelics, when used wisely, 161 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: have the potential to help heal us, help inspire us, 162 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: and perhaps even to help save us. Part of it 163 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: because of a range of academics that have just kept 164 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: pushing to get this going. Part of it because Michael 165 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: Pollen sort of breakthrough book Changing your Mind. What happened 166 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: to psychedelics in the sixties that they became so stigmatized 167 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: that research stopped. Now you have all these companies trying 168 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: to create new psychedelic products. So you have this sort 169 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: of psychedelic renaissance where the media is mostly focused on 170 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: the upside layout the case for legalization of psychedelics, and 171 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: and why this is an opportunity for investors. We're used 172 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: numbers of people are having positive experiences where people understand 173 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: the significance of setting like using these drugs in the 174 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: right type of environment. So I think we're probably in 175 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: a period in history where more people are using these 176 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: things than ever before. And I also expect that there's 177 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: gonna be some tragedies. There are going to be some 178 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: people who get hurt. The media is gonna jump on that, 179 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: We're gonna start to see the pendulum swing backward. But 180 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: I think there's a level of consciousness and awareness and 181 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: except into normalization happening both with cannabis and with psychedelics. Now, 182 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: unlike anything we've seen before, medical use of psychoactive drugs 183 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: can be rife with complications. Take for example, the array 184 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: of pharmaceuticals derived from the opium plant. In the United States, 185 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: our medical system prescribes opioids, so most people have had 186 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: some form of opioid in their life. We come out 187 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: of getting our wisdom, teeth removes, we come out of 188 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: some minor surgery, so the doctor may prescribe like an oxycoda. 189 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: Go to place like Japan, I think, where it's very low. 190 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: You go to parts of the developing world where it's 191 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: under prescribed and many people die in pain. Opioids one 192 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: of these things where interestingly, if you have access even 193 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: to heroin to pharmaceutical grade heroine, and you know the 194 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: dose and you're using the same dose. You can basically 195 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: consume heroin every day of your adult life and live 196 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: to be years old. You can have a job, you 197 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: can have sex with your partner, you can drive a car. 198 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: You can do it all because your body develops a 199 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: certain tolerance. If you stop using it, you'll feel sick 200 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 1: and feverish or even worse while your body goes through 201 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: a racking withdrawal of it. But the fact that matters 202 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: if you have a reliable dose. The worst side effect, 203 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: oftentimes it's constipation. When you combine heroin with alcohol or 204 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: with a benzodiazepine type drug, in modest amounts, it can 205 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: be a really great high. But the problem is if 206 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: you double or triple that dose, you stop breathing. We 207 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: think about people dying of an alcohol overdose, but the 208 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: deadly thing is that alcohol is oftentimes the hidden thing 209 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: that's causing an overdose with another drug where the media 210 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: headline says heroin, but it was actually heroin plus booze, 211 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: and it was only with the recent emergence of ventonyl 212 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: taking the opioid epidemic to a new level of urgency. 213 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: This synthetic opioid that's fifty times more powerful than heroin 214 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: Graham Prograham. That's the first opioid where people just take 215 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: it all by itself and they can just stop breathing. 216 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: You know, with marijuana, you can have fifty times the 217 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: amount you need to get high a hundred times and 218 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: it's not going to kill you. It appears that if 219 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: you're on an opioid prescription and you combine it with marijuana, 220 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: you can cut your prescribed dose in half just by 221 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: having a little bit of marijuana with it, because the 222 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: marijuana potentiates it. There's a bunch of research studies out 223 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: there that showed that in states that are approved medical marijuana, 224 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: they appear to have lower overdose rates than did other 225 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: places because people were either substituting the marijuana for the 226 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: opioids for pain relief, or they were combining it with 227 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: the opioid and therefore taking less of the opioid because 228 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: they didn't need as much. I know, I get totally 229 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: lost on it, but I did want to ask about 230 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: opium classic, you know, smokable opium. You know, like I 231 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: feel like I see most of like media with like 232 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: opium den and I imagine it was a scene in 233 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: the US at some point and it's not really anymore. Well, 234 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I mean, I feel I've been a 235 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: bit professionally negligent and never having actually smoked opium. I mean, 236 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: it's on my to do list, my bucket list, you know, 237 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: I got to do this if I'm really going to 238 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: be a serious, you know person talking about drugs. But 239 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: by and large, the opium dent was a common thing 240 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: in Asia, and then it came to America when people 241 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: came from China in the middle of late nineteenth century. 242 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: They then became incredibly demon eyes. The first opium prohibition 243 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: laws were in the eighteen seventies and eighties in the 244 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: Data and in California, very racist laws and the fear 245 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: that the Chinese were basically addicting and seducing and turning 246 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: white women into sex slaves. That's when heroin gets invented, 247 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: actually by Bear Pharmaceutical as a copt for president. What 248 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: happened was you had as some of the switch going 249 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: on from opium to heroin, and then people begin to 250 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: realize that if you want to smuggle this stuff, it's 251 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: a lot safer to smuggle a white powder like heroin 252 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: than it is to smuggle opium, and if you want 253 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: to consume it, opium gives off a distinct aroma, whereas heroin, 254 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: especially if you're injecting and not smoking, it no aroma, 255 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: so it's easier to hide from the cops. It's what 256 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: we call the perverse consequences of prohibition, where when you 257 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: prohibit a drug like opium or coca or some other 258 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: things like that, people tend to say, Okay, let's synthesize it. 259 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: Let's make it easier to smuggle, easier to consume discreetly, 260 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: and we push people away from the less dangerous, more 261 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: natural plant product towards a much more compact and potent version. 262 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: And that brings us to one of the most controversial 263 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: polemics about mind altering substances that for decades, the US 264 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: and by extension, the world, has been waging a war 265 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: on drugs. America's public enemy Number one in the United 266 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: States is drug abuse. Nixon declared a war on drugs 267 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: fifty years ago. In order to fight and defeat this enemy, 268 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: it is necessary to wage a new all out offensive. 269 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: That rhetoric those ideas the huge growth in the enforcement agencies, 270 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: and then it kind of quieted down during the Jimmy 271 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: Carter days when you actually had a fairly progressive mindset 272 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: for a few years. Then Reagan and that Reagan generation 273 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: pushed it to the max, making a final commitment not 274 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: to tolerate drugs by anyone, anytime, any place. And unfortunately, 275 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: it was very much of a bipartisan effort. I mean 276 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: Tip O'Neill, the very famous influential Democratic Speaker of the House, 277 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: liberal Democrat Massachusetts, he was totally on board the war 278 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: on drugs too. You know, you look a little like 279 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: Tip O'Neill mhm. And a lot of people say that. 280 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: Then under the first George Bush took off like crazy. 281 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: All of us agree that the gravest domestic threat facing 282 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: our nation today is drugs. The first drugs are was 283 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: a guy named William Bennett say the War on drugs 284 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: was a failure. It was not. It was not. It 285 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: was not Who really was masterful at advancing a right wing, 286 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: reactionary political agenda in America by playing on the fears 287 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: around drugs among middle class American parents. Talk to your 288 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: kids about office of drugs. Help your children to just 289 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: say no. But you know. The truth is you can 290 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: go back to the refor madness, days of the dirt. 291 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: It's matri juana, the burning weed with its roots in hell. 292 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: In this film you will see the ease with which 293 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: this vicious plan can be grown in your neighbor's yard, 294 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: ruled into harmless looking cigarettes hidden in an innocent shoe. 295 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: Some people say that what brought us alcohol prohibition was 296 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: the war on drugs, but it was focused on alcohol. 297 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: Americans praise passing of the dry law and then promptly 298 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: perceived by every possible means to repeal Eighteenth Amendment. You 299 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: can go back even further in history and see other 300 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: war on drugs happening in other parts of the world. 301 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: There were times in Europe when there were efforts to 302 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: crack down tobacco. China launched its own warrn opium in 303 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 1: the nationalist phase in only twentieth century. If you look 304 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: at what's going on the Philippines right now, in some 305 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: other Asian countries, they have sometimes vicious wars on drugs. 306 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: They don't exceed ours in terms of mass incarceration, but 307 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the brutality and authorizing police to conduct 308 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: extra judicial killings. The President of the Philippines do to day. 309 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: He gave his cops a green light to just go 310 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: and shoot people. So wars on drugs are not uniquely 311 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: American phenomenon, but the United States took it the furthest 312 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: in terms of mass incarceration. We also had our kind 313 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: of prohibitionists abstinence only mentality, and we became the chief 314 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: proselytizer and promoter of global drug prohibition from the early 315 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: twentieth century until the early years of the Obama administration. 316 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: Substance abuse generally legal and illegal. There's a problem locking 317 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: somebody up for twenty years. It is probably not the 318 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: best strategy. Domestically, the issue has oftentimes been tied up 319 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: with race. If you ask why are some drugs legal 320 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: and other drugs illegal, it has relatively little to do 321 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: with the relative dangers of drugs and almost everything to 322 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: do with who use it and who is perceived to 323 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: use particular drugs. So that connection in the American consciousness 324 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: of drugs with black people, brown people especially, or with 325 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: Chinese people in the late nineteenth century, that's always been 326 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: a very prominent element. And that same racism and discrimination 327 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: based on ethnicity has played out not just in the US, 328 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: but many other countries around the world as well. Because 329 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: most of these drugs were being imported from abroad. You 330 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: saw that become a big issue in foreign policy. Mexico, 331 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: for example, at one point Nixon closed the border. It's 332 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: become a big issue with cocaine coming out of Bolivia, Peru, 333 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: ofttimes via Colombia and in Mexico. So it became a 334 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: number one issue in our relationships with some of those countries. 335 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: Sometimes there were countries like Paraguay where you basically had 336 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: the narcos takeover government. It was a complicated issue in Afghanistan. 337 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: So there's always been that international dimensioned where to appeal 338 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: to the rent, we've gotta stop drugs from coming to 339 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: this country. When it comes to keeping drugs away from kids, 340 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: people were about, oh, we legalized marijuana for adults, more 341 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: kids are gonna be using it. But that was bullshit. 342 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: Throughout the last fifty years, if you ask who's had 343 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: the best access to marijuana in America, it's always been 344 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: the kids, the adolescent. Even as marijuana he's went up 345 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: and down, up and down, up and down. Always of 346 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: high school kids, we're saying marijuana was easy to get 347 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: and In fact, since we started legalizing marijuana, you know, 348 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: beginning with Colorado Washington in twelve, there's been almost no 349 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: increase in analysts and marijuana use. The big increase has 350 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: been among people in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties. 351 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: The ones who did have access to it, the ones 352 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: who because it was illegal, didn't want to use it. 353 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: We're the ones where that you see a double tripping, 354 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: quadrupling abuse. All of this begs the question how effective 355 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: is the war on drugs or has it been effective 356 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: at all? I mean, it's very hard to find any 357 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: examples of success. Fifty years ago when most heroin was 358 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: coming from Turkey through what's called the French Connection into 359 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: the US, and there was a period when we were 360 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: able to crack down on Turkey and crack down the 361 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: French connection, and there was a brief shortage of heroin 362 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: in the US. Or there was another moment when there 363 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: was a laboratory in Mexico producing fentanyl and d e 364 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: A and Mexican police succeeded in shutting it down and 365 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: that cut off the flow of ventinyl briefly. But apart 366 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: from a couple of rare examples, There are thousands of 367 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: cases of trying to reproduce that success and failing simply 368 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: because where there is a demand, there's going to be spot. 369 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: And you crack down in one place, it's gonna pop 370 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: up somewhere else. You knock out disproduction area, it's gonna 371 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: pop in another production area. You popped out of this 372 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: drug traffic that you network, that's gonna pop in another 373 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: drug trafficking network. You make it harder to expert the 374 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: stuff to the US, and Americans are gonna start producing 375 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: and stuff you cracked down on meth labs in the 376 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: US Mexico, that's gonna step up. And of course it's 377 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: ludicrits because our borders are so open that if there 378 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: were a market for her in this country of ten 379 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: times what's currently coming in and would come in, there's 380 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: no way to stop it. Not when you have endless 381 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: numbers of shipping containers and boats and planes and you 382 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: name it, and people coming in. There's no way to 383 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: keep drugs out of the country. But it always appealed 384 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: to politicians sense of playing on people's fears around what 385 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: was coming in from abroad. I just think the evidence 386 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: of the drug war in terms of reducing the use 387 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: of drugs or making them less available. They've made them 388 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: less available than if they were fully legal, But the 389 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: negative consequences in terms of incarcerations, in terms of now 390 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: maybe one to one and a half trillion dollars wasted 391 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: on the war on drugs over the last fifty years, 392 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: in terms of people using drugs that are more dangerous 393 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: because they come from the black market, In terms of 394 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: violations of civil liberties and human rights, in terms of 395 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: empowering gangsters. Never mind the millions and millions and millions 396 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: of people, disproportionately young men of color who have been 397 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: locked up and arrested and have their lives derailed. Never 398 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: mind a hundreds of thousands of people who have been 399 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: fired from their jobs for testing positive for marijuana use, 400 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: even though it was having no impact on their job 401 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: performance at all. America was profoundly irrational around drugs in 402 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: much the same way we were with alcohol prohibition. We 403 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: understood that these drugs could be problematic and dangerous. We 404 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: then made this silly assumption that if we banned them 405 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: the problem would go away, maybe reducing the number of consumers, 406 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: but dramatically increasing the broader set of problems that resulted. So, 407 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: if you can't stop drugs from being made, bought, shipped, 408 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: or consumed, and the battle for those efforts is just 409 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: as costly as any war with no end in sight, 410 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: what should we be doing instead? Re Educating people on 411 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: issues of drug regulation by separating political rhetoric from actual 412 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: data was to become the subject of Ethan's life's work. 413 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: In nine seven I finished my PhD. I got a 414 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: job teaching at Princeton Politics and Public Affairs, and interestingly, 415 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: the dean invited me to teach a class on drug 416 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: policy there, and then I wrote in three articles in 417 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: eighty nine, and as a result I got catapulted into 418 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: like these two bursts of fifteen minutes of fame, and 419 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: tonight's great debate is the war on drugs of failure. 420 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: We have eight hundred thousand Americans arrested last year simply 421 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: for possessing a joint where I was all over the 422 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: national media, all over television on the other side of this, 423 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: Ethan Naman, Ethan Nathan specialist today, Ethan Naemanthanman, thanks so 424 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: much for joining us this morning. Ethan Nadelman, thanks very 425 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: much for being here. Ethan Aedeman, Welcome to democracy now, Ethan, 426 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: it's a pleasure. Welcome to freedom Watch, Ethan Nadelman, Welcome 427 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: to our show. That was only in my young thirties 428 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: and I was speaking around the world in a major events. 429 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: This feels like a serious altered state of consciousness right now. 430 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: But there was a single moment that cemented it all 431 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: for Ethan, a clarity about where he fit in this 432 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: world of drug discourse. And it just so happened to 433 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: come while he was tripping. I did mushrooms for the 434 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: first time in seven years. It wasn't really an epiphany. 435 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: It was more a kind of realization that this was 436 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: my calling in life, to teach people about drugs, and 437 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: that it did not matter if I was going to 438 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: stay in academia or go into journalism or writing or 439 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: politics or run an advocacy organization. And out of the blue, 440 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: I got a phone call from a guy named George Soros, 441 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: prominent financier who was not yet well known. It's he 442 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: was interested in this issue and we hit it off, 443 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: and he said to me, well, look, I'm a busy man, 444 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: but as substantial resources, so let's assume I want to 445 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: and how are you to accomplish our common objectives. George's 446 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: instincts on the issue are right eid and educated about 447 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: harm reduction and needle exchange and medical neural want and 448 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: all that issues. And we have formed an effective partnership 449 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: which resulted in my setting up this organization, first within 450 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: this foundation and then independently in what became the Drug 451 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: Policy Alliance. I support the Drug Policy Alliance because it 452 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: fosters debate on drug policy, because the war on drugs 453 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: represents an extraordinary violation of human rights, because whether you 454 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: use drugs or not, you deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, 455 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: and dignity. The Drug Policy Alliance or d p A 456 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: is a New York based nonprofit that is still in 457 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: existence today. Ethan would serve as the organization's executive director. Initially, 458 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: it was just about putting out the ideas, but beginning 459 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: around we realized that there were a few issues were 460 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: a majority of Americans thought that the war on drugs 461 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: who've gone too far. One of those was that a 462 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: majority of Americans had come to believe that people who 463 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: use marijuana as a medicine with a doctor's recommendation should 464 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: not be treated as criminals. And the other was that 465 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: most Americans believed that if somebody got arrested for possessing 466 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: any drug, even heroin and meth amphetamine, and they had 467 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: a drug problem and they weren't violent, they should be 468 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: given at least a few opportunities for drug treatment before 469 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: they got put away, and that gave us a foot 470 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: in the door to pass other ballot initiatives. The time 471 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: to vote on recreational marijuana is here, So we began 472 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: to get much more political, beginning in the late nineties, 473 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: to see how do we pass these reforms through the 474 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: ballot initiative process, through state legislation, through Congress, and then 475 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: of course the public education side. And bit by bit 476 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: I built up the organization. So when I stepped down, 477 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: were about seventy five people working at Drug Policy Alliance. 478 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: We had a budget of or fifteen million, offices and 479 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: about half a dozen states around the country, some doing 480 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: some work internationally as well. Really saw myself as building 481 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: not just an organization, but really a political movement to 482 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: end the war on drugs and to promote alternatives that 483 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: were grounded in science, compassion, health, and human rights. Because 484 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: issues around drugs are so complex. Part of making the 485 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance an effective resource was keeping its objectives clear. 486 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: I'd say one third of our work focused on ending 487 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: marijuana prohibition, first for medical and then more broadly. The 488 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: second third focused on rolling back the role of the 489 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: War on drugs in mass incarceration, and the last third 490 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: focused on treating drug use and addiction truly as a 491 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: health issue, not a criminal issue. It was basically those 492 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: three things and seeing myself engaged in sort of the 493 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: first generation of a multi generational struggle. The d p 494 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: A also drew a diverse crowd of supporters, each with 495 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: their own agendas. I relished when I was building Drug 496 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: Policy Alliance have people coming from every perspective. I could 497 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: look at the audience and seeing one row there was 498 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: a guy who had hemp leaves in his hair, something 499 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: that's for your couples. Next to them was somebody who 500 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: was anti marijuana but anti incarceration. I think a man 501 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: working out to or she feels more like a man 502 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: if you're gonna have a bottle of suns. Sitting next 503 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: to them was a guy who had been incarcerated for 504 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: fifteen years on a minor cocaine charge. And now come 505 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: the dads. We can see that's no duck walk anymore. 506 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: Sitting next to them was a guy who'd been a 507 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: law enforcement officer for twenty five years and realized the 508 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: drug wars futile. I hate this job. I hate this job, 509 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: and I don't need it. Sitting next to them would 510 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: be a young woman from Vietnam who was doing needle 511 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: exchange programs and pushing in city. You're gonna give it 512 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: a sho You're gonna give it giving the shot. Sitting 513 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: next to them would be a person working for a 514 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: labor union trying to persuade the labor unions to embrace 515 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: marijuana legalization. We have on this strike we wanted the 516 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: minute we started across this railroad yard. Sitting next to 517 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: them be somebody who's a leading psychedelics researcher. Like knocking 518 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: at the door with a brick, when the door is opened, 519 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: you don't carry the brick inside. So next to them 520 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: would be somebody who was going from the Coca Growers 521 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: Union Latin America? Where did you get this stuff? And 522 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: for me, the challenge is how do you take all 523 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: of those people and understand that they are in a 524 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: common struggle. The line I used to use is who 525 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: are we the Drug Policy Alliance? Who are we the 526 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: drug policy reform movement. We're the people who love drugs, 527 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: we're the people who hate drugs, and we're the people 528 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: who don't give it damn about drugs. But every one 529 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: of us believed that the war on drugs is the 530 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: wrong way to go. And then therefore what matters is 531 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: not your relationship to drugs, which might be fantastic or horrific. 532 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: It's about understanding that a punitive, criminalized, moralistic approach is 533 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: inevitably going to result in more harm than good. And 534 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: what we need is rationality, compassion, respect for human rights, 535 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: respect for science. Even though the vantage points on this 536 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: issue are innumerable, there's no point in preaching to acquire. 537 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: The really interesting conversations for me are sometimes with people 538 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: who may not fully share my set of values, who 539 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: are more instinctually conservative or don't agree with some of 540 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: the human rights elements, but they're open and for me 541 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: it's like, how do I get past their instinctive defenses 542 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: to try to open them up to seeing things in 543 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: a new way. You know, there's twenty of the country 544 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: which is just ideologically on the other side. They move in, 545 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: they're invested in it, but then there's a big part 546 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: of the country, which is just part of the conventional 547 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: anti drug discourse. And the challenge therefore is how do 548 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: you bring him to a new way of thinking. How 549 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: do you get a parent whose kid died of an 550 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: overdose and whose first instinct is to just about and 551 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: execute all the drug dealers, how do you get them 552 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: to understand that that's not going to solve anything, and 553 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: there's another way to deal with this. How do you 554 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: get cops to understand why legalizing is actually going to 555 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: be good, not just for the broader society, but from 556 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: where they sit. One of my challenges is talking to 557 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: people in the marijuana psychedelics world and getting them to 558 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: understand that the same principles they bring to marijuana psychedelics 559 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: also have to apply in some way to the drugs 560 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: like opioids, and that's ampheta means not that we would 561 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: make them legally available in the same way, but that 562 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: the principles around sovereignty of your own mind and body 563 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: have to extend even to those growing The Drug Policy 564 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: Alliance didn't leave a lot of time for much else. 565 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: A lot of my time was consumed with basically building 566 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: an organization. I used to write a lot of both 567 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: academic and popular publications, but at some point my most 568 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: creative writing goes and interact thing with billionaires. So I'm 569 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: trying to raise money from the amount of time I 570 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: was spend interacting with media, I had to balance with 571 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: running organization. I could also only accept so many public 572 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: speaking engagements, So there were the things that I decided 573 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: to pull back from in order to build an organization 574 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: and to empower young people so that they could becoming 575 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: the next generation of leaders in this area. In January, 576 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: after more than two decades at the Helm, Ethan stepped 577 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: down from the d p I. When I stopped bringing 578 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance, I was just happy not to talk 579 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: about drugs for a while, because I was talking about 580 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: drugs around the clock forever and ever. I go on 581 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: a vacation, start chatting with some people you meet and 582 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: they say, oh, what do you do? Instantly I'd blah 583 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: blahla la la la, you know, the same thing over 584 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: and over again. So it was nice to just kind 585 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: of shut up for a while, and so retired. Ethan 586 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: took a turn living the quiet life until one day 587 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: he got a call from a filmmaker friend of his. 588 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: When Darren Aronovski first reached out to me. He asked 589 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: me if I want to do a podcast in psychedelics, 590 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: and my response was nope, I want to do it 591 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: on all drugs. Psychoactive, which debuted in July, features one 592 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: on one interviews with leading minds from across the ideological 593 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: spectrum and frank discussions about drugs from science to policy, 594 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: and even stories of personal drug use. The thing about 595 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: the podcast was it gave me a reason to re 596 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: engage with the whole issue of drugs and drug policy. 597 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: So it's given me a reason to touch base again 598 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: with people who I missed and I like, you know, 599 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: I can talk with the former president of Columbia, President 600 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: Santo's welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, 601 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: and I'm very very glad to be here with you. 602 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: But I've known him since two thousand and twelve and 603 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: met with him when he was president. One of the 604 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: challenges is are they gonna peet the people who want 605 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: to tune in one week to hear about the latest 606 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: and psychedelics research, the next week about the overdose problem, 607 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: the next week about Afghanistan, the next week about the 608 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: latest book by Michael Pollan, and that's what we're gonna see. 609 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: Will you be an audience where the common link is 610 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: it's me as a host, psychoed subject. But that's going 611 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: to cover incredibly wide spectrum of issues. I got one 612 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: more question. I know you've been asked this before, but 613 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: I feel like I need to, Like, I mean, what 614 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: is the upshot of it look like? Like Like? What's a 615 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: better world look like? What's a better America? Is that 616 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: all drugs being legal? I mean, I think, first of all, 617 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: simple possession of any substance for your own use should 618 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: not be a crime, even if it's messa, anthetam and heroin, 619 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: some synthetic drugs. If you're only using it for your 620 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: own use, it's a matter of personal freedom, human rights, sovereignty, civilibrities, 621 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: you name it. None of the government's business, none of 622 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: my employer's business. That's that when it comes to how 623 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: we make it available and whether we make it ely 624 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: available over the counter, we need to come up with 625 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: the balanced, sensible taxation policies, regulatory policies. But I think 626 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: ultimately it boils down to accepting that there's almost never 627 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: been a drug free society in human history. There's certainly 628 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: not going to be one in the future, and as 629 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: the challenge is not how to get rid of drugs. 630 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: It's not how to build a moat between drugs and ourselves, 631 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: or even between drugs and our children, because that's impossible. 632 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 1: It's really how to learn how to live with these drugs, 633 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: these plants and chemicals. So they call us the least 634 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: possible harm and in many cases the greatest possible benefit. 635 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: Where we can turn what's been this kind of big crisis, 636 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: ugly problem involving people dying of overdose and vast numbers 637 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: of people getting arrested incarcerated into a small problem whereas 638 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: people still get hurt, but not as severely or as 639 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: frequently as they do now, and where people still go 640 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: to jail because they're not obeying the rules around legally 641 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: regulated markets, but if they do, it's a much smaller 642 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: number and not for so long. Where we have honest 643 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: drug education, where young people learned that there's no such 644 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: thing as a good or bad drugs, they're only good 645 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: or bad relationships with drugs, and more responsible or less 646 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: responsible ways to use that say that, you know, the 647 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,720 Speaker 1: the great blessing in life is to find a way 648 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: to get paid for something you're passionate about and then 649 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: you enjoy doing. Not many people get that, but I 650 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: looked into that by finding my calling in an early 651 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: age and effectively getting paid to do what I wanted 652 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: to do with my life, whether it was my appreciation 653 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: of marijuana, or my anger and seeing people getting busted, 654 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: or my mushroom trip or what have you? No regrets. 655 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: This episode of Ephemeral was written an assembled by Max 656 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: and Alex Blind, with producers Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. 657 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: Ethan Needelman's weekly podcast is Psychoactive, a co production of 658 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,240 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Darren Aronofsky's Protozoa Pictures. Find out wherever 659 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts and find us at a femeral 660 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: dot show. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the 661 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 662 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: Next week, we'll be hearing from Maya Salivitz, one of 663 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: the most brilliant journalists in the world covering drug issues, 664 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: who's got a new book out on the pioneers of 665 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: harm reduction. A man named Nico Adrian's, who was himself 666 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: a heroin injector, founded the first needle exchange he gave 667 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,879 Speaker 1: people clean needles and he took the used ones off 668 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,919 Speaker 1: the street. This meant that when HIV did show up 669 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: in the next three or four years, Rotterdam had a 670 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: much lower rate of infection amongst its IVY drug users. 671 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: And so when the HIV virus was discovered, Amsterdam and 672 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: the rest of the Netherlands was like, oh wow, we 673 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: have something here in Rotterdam that can work for this. 674 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: So they just expanded needle exchange very broadly.