1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: It was a new year, nineteen ninety five, and Stephen 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Carrington was a young man with a short criminal history 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: who had just gotten out of prison. He had recently 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: gotten married. The young father was training to be an emt. 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: After having paid his debt to society, his life was 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: getting back on track. On the morning of January second, 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, Stephen's brother Mark stood outside of a 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: lumberyard in Brooklyn as Shannon France and another man arrived. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Mister France pulled the twenty five, announcing his stick up 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: as the other man Rob's customer, Hugh Keys. The store clerk, 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: tries to grab mister France's weapon and was shot. Mister 12 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Franz loots the strong box and the two men fled, 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: leaving mister Keyes alive. A confidential informant would tell the 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: lead investigator, Detective Calabreeze, the names of three men who 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: were seen by the lumberyard at the time of the crime, 16 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: Shannon France, Eddie West, and Mark Carrington. However, when he 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: searched for Mark Carrington, Stephen popped up at the same 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: address and with his criminal record, Calabrigi added his photo 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: into an array. Hugh Keys gave a shaky identification. In 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: the absence of any physical evidence whatsoever connecting him to 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: the crime, Stephan went to trial right next to the 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: trigger man, Shannon France. The Carringtons hired a lawyer to 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: protect both of their sons, but it turned out to 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: be to the detriment of one of them. Mark was 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: never called to testify a trial, and twenty years later, 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: finally free, Stephan Carrington is out on parole, but still 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: fighting to clear his name of a crime that he 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: simply didn't commit. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm. That's me. 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today we have a story an 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: outcome that we're going to hope that who knows, maybe 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: somebody out there can be helpful with because we are 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: fighting to prove the innocence of the man who's sitting 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: right in front of me now, Stephan Carrington. Stepan, as 35 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm happy 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: you're here. 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, but I'm happy that I'm here having 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: an opportunity to set the record straight and probably clear 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: my name. 40 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what we're here for. Let's go back to 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: that original Faithful Day, January second, nineteen ninety five. What 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: happened that day in the lumber store. 43 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: Basically, all my knowledge of this saga story that took 44 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: place I learned through reading trial minutes, from hearing from 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: people in the street, and things of that nature, because 46 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: you know, I wasn't dead when it took place. On 47 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: that day, they said that two individuals into the lumber 48 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: yard at a parent robbery which resulted to a homicide. 49 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: One of the employee at the lumber yard try to 50 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: take a weapon from this individual and subsequently this guy 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 2: shot him twice and ultimately he died. Eventually he died. 52 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: The two individuals fled the scene. My brother was the 53 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: lookout and subsequently the person that is my co defendant, Shannon, 54 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 2: his girlfriend best friend, is the one that gave his name, 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 2: photos and everything to the police. There's a third individual 56 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: who name was Eddie Wes. And I have to say 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: that neither my brother or Eddie West was ever interviewed, 58 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: questioned sought after by the police department. 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: So Eddie West was the other guy in the store. 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: Now, Eddie West was one of the individuals that they 61 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: mentioned that was out on the corner during the time 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: the robbery was committed. 63 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: Okay, Shannon Franz, though, was he had some involvement in 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 1: the crime? Is that right? 65 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: They found his fingerprints on the cash box inside the lumberyard. 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: That's not a good science. No, they didn't find yours. 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: No, they have no physical evidence or anything linking me 68 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: to the crime, besides having a sibling who was mentioned 69 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: to be outside with the individuals who was involved. 70 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: So these guys go, they robbed the lumberyard, and they 71 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: shot a clerk named Lloyd Campbell. Yes, both in the 72 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: head and in the back. 73 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: Yes. 74 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: And then they found the strong box, they looted it. 75 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: The two guys fled the scene. Your brother was either 76 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: there or not as a lookout whatever he was doing. 77 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: He was apparently not in the store, that is correct. 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: So how did your name come to be associated because 79 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: it's sort of a leap to say, Okay, well they 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: got your brother, now they're going to just go after you. 81 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, I could just tell you from the police reports. 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: The officers during the investigation when they received these names 83 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: and photos of these individuals. There was an address on 84 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: the photo, which was a promotional photo at the time. 85 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 2: I had a recording studio, and we used to you know, 86 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: wrench studio time out to individuals. One of the group, Shannon, 87 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: my co defendant. He was an individual who was in 88 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 2: the rap group which my brother was affiliated with a 89 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: part of, and they had promotional photos up and down 90 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: the avenue, the same avenue that these guys went and 91 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: committed this crime on. It so happened that they committed 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: a crime across the street from his girlfriend's business, and 93 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 2: his girlfriend best friend is the one that saw him 94 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: out there and eventually gave his name in the photos 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: to the police, to the detective Calabrise. When Calabrese was 96 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: doing his investigation, all he did was run the address 97 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: through the police system and my name came back because 98 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: I was parole to that address. So when they discovered 99 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: that I was on parole, the whole case shifted to me. 100 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 2: Detective Calibres is quoted as saying that he had a 101 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: gut feeling I was involved. He felt that I matched 102 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: the description my brother was involved. He felt that if 103 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: I wasn't involved, I knew something about it. And because 104 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: I had a prior and I was on parole, they 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: came for me. 106 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: But you matched the description of the actual shooter, no 107 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: or the lookout No, whose description did you match? 108 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: He said, I matched the individual who robbed another patron 109 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: of this lumber yard, mister yu Keys. I didn't know 110 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 2: what he was talking about. In my mind, I believe 111 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: that eventually whatever they were trying to do with, you know, 112 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: resolve itself. Because I didn't have I had nothing to 113 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 2: do with any crime. This situation, you know, had me 114 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 2: think about this one phrase, you know, and it always 115 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: stuck with me that you you never get a second 116 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: chance to make a first impression. And because of my 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: past is why I'm here today now. I'm not a 118 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: goodie two shoe. I wasn't and that is only because 119 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: I try to fit in with individuals I wanted, you know, 120 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: to be down. I brought up. My father's a pastor. 121 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: I brought up in church. I went to church majority 122 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: of my life, and I wouldn't lie, you know, I 123 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: hated church. I was forced to go every day. I 124 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: wouldn't say a worse experience, but just not to do 125 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: what normal kids do was kind of tough for me 126 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: because I was a free spreader. I like, so when 127 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: I was like seventeen, I try to move out and 128 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 2: so I started selling drugs with my best friend and 129 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: that's how I got into the life of criminality and 130 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 2: things of that nature. And subsequently I did get rested 131 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: for drug seale robbery and I went to Rackets Island 132 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: and I had a traumatic experience. I got jumped, got stabbed, 133 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: got robbed, and as time went on, I knew that 134 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: this wasn't for me. Prison wasn't something that I wanted 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: to do. It wasn't a lifestyle that I wanted to live. 136 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: And if you know, selling drugs all these other stuff 137 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: was going to lead me to prison, then I had 138 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: to do away with that, and not just those activities, 139 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: but also the people that I used to associate with, 140 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: and that's what I did. 141 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: You were really putting your life on track at this time, 142 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: which is sort of an added element of tragedy. You 143 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: had gone through some training to be an EMT right, Yes, 144 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: that's correct, your young father, that's correct, and basically married, 145 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: recently married. Yeah, so you had your whole life in 146 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: front of you. 147 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: I had changed my life. I'd cut off all my friends. 148 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: You know, I had a new born, my daughter. She 149 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: was only seven months when they took me from home. 150 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: It's sickening. I mean, and let's set the record straight 151 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: by talking about your alibi, which is a bit of 152 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: a sensitive topic. I mean, you were a married man, 153 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: but your alibi involves another woman, right. 154 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: Sad to saying, Unfortunately, the day that they accused me 155 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: of committing this crime, I was in the hospital with 156 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: my wife, and I was also with another female friend 157 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: before I was in the hospital with my wife. 158 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: Right, like you said earlier, you had a recording studio 159 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: set up in your parents' basement. A young lady came 160 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: to visit you there and spent the night. Now, unbeknownst 161 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: to you, your daughter had developed an ear infection. I 162 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital that morning. Now there's no 163 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: cell phones back then. Your wife was calling around looking 164 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: for you, and she gets a hold of your mother, 165 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: who walks the phone to you. Downstairs. You spoke with 166 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: your wife, assured her that you were at your way, 167 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: and then you shower and get the hell out of there. 168 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: When I got there, you know, basically, my wife is 169 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: just like, hey, she's ry responsibility. Now I had all 170 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: and so you know, I did everything until the doctors 171 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: wanted to come in. She had an ear affection, so 172 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: they wanted to do an X ray. Now, this is 173 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: one of the things that baffled me even to today 174 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: with all the technology and stuff that they have, my 175 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: hands got captured in this X ray. When people read 176 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: this case, really sit down and read this case, they wonder, 177 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: how did you get convicted? 178 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: You had a solid alibi. 179 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: I trial. One person testified against me, and I had 180 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 2: four or five alibi witnesses that testified. The one person 181 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: that testified against me mister yu Keys, And I feel 182 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: for him because I know that he's been duped because 183 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: he told the nine one one operator when he called 184 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: them during the day, that the crime was committed, about 185 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: being robbed, about the individual being shot, or what have you. 186 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: And when they asked him to give a description of 187 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: the individual, he told him that he couldn't. He said 188 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: he never looked at the individual, that he never looked 189 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: at the person that robbed him. Wow, because he was 190 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: afraid too, because he seeing what happened to the guy 191 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: that got shot, He was afraid for his life. He 192 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: also told that to the first police that came on 193 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 2: the scene. But yet here it is Detective Calabris is 194 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: saying that this individual picked my picture up and said 195 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: this is the guy that robbed me. The district attorney 196 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: is saying that the witness didn't say that the witness 197 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: said that I looked like the individual that robbed them, 198 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: But in all the police reports it's saying that the 199 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: witness said that I'm the guy that robbed them. But 200 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: in court, the district attorney is saying that the witness 201 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: said that I looked like the guy that robbed them, 202 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: and if he sent me in person, he would be 203 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: able to identify me. But here's the catch. The witness 204 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: get on the stand and said that he never made 205 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 2: no identification of me prior to my arrest. So how 206 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: did I become a suspect? 207 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: Right? Which one is it? 208 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 2: Right? Three different opinions about one identification? Now, who should 209 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: you believe the detective who was saying that he positively 210 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: identified me as the person that robbed them, The district 211 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: attorney who was saying that the witness said I looked 212 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: like the individual, but he will be able to identify 213 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: me if he see me in person. Or the witness 214 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: who said that he never made no identification when the 215 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 2: police came to his house on numerous occasions. Who should 216 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: we believe this guy? He didn't know me. The only 217 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: thing that he knew, which he told the police, was 218 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: that the guy was dark skinned and stocky. 219 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,359 Speaker 1: That described half of your neighborhood. 220 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 2: When they asked him, well, how tall is this guy? 221 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 2: He don't know. Is he taller than you? I don't know. 222 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: Is he shorter than you? I don't know. Did he 223 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: have a bed, I don't know. Did he have a mustache? 224 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: I don't know. 225 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: For he didn't see him. 226 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 2: What do you know? He was dark skinned and stocky. 227 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: They showed him the tape, and on the tape, you 228 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: can't make the features out of the individuals, do perpetrators. 229 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: You can't really make facial features out of anybody on 230 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: the tape. But the perpetrators had on hats and hoodies 231 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: and three quarter length copes, and he stated that he 232 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: couldn't see these individuals. He didn't know what the personal like. 233 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: He don't know if they had a bed, mustache, anything. 234 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: He was just dusking and stocky. So when you look 235 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: at the tape, all you see is shapes and sizes. 236 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: That's not enough. 237 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 2: He couldn't even identify hisself on the tape. During trial, 238 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 2: the disc attorney had to reference something of what he 239 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: had on wait. 240 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: Hold on the witness. This tape was so grainy that 241 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: the guy couldn't identify himself. 242 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 2: Yes, when the DiscT attorney asks him to point to 243 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: hisself on the tape, he pointed to someone else. 244 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 245 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: And then the disc attorney says something like this, is 246 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: that you with the checkerboard shirt? Or who's in the 247 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: checkerboard shirt or something of that effect. Right led him 248 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: to basically say, oh, and then that's me standing right here. 249 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: Okay, I've heard enough about that. Now we know that's 250 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: completely unreliable and out. That should have been out the 251 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: window right off the bat. One of the things that 252 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: sticks with me is the idea that detective Calibreeds claimed 253 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: that he could recognize you from a security tape because 254 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: he could recognize your walk. 255 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I believe that was the lynch pin. That's that 256 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: sealed my fate, because he got understanding and he pointed 257 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: me out in court and he said this is the guy, 258 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: and they asked him how he knows and he says 259 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: that he could tell that it was me because of 260 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: how I walked. And the tape doesn't show the perpetrator 261 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: from his waist down, and they showed this tape in court. 262 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: But yet, you know, I believe that that was the 263 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: nail in the coffin for me, because he's an officer. 264 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: They have a tape, and people believe even when I 265 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: was a appealing and I know that these judge never 266 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: viewed the tape, but because of the language and the 267 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: dialogue in the trial transcript, they even denied certain of 268 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: my appeals because they saying you were clearly sin on 269 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: the tape. 270 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: The idea that anyone could identify anyone else short of 271 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: someone who does have a physical, you know, impairment for 272 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: war impairment exactly that's what I was looking for, is preposterous. 273 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that they would even present that 274 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: as evidence, it's ridiculous. But they did, and the consequences 275 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: are not funny at all. They're very real. So there's 276 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: there's that, and then there's the fact that you know, 277 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: we know, we know what happened at the trial. That 278 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: you know your brother was not allowed to testify. That 279 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: is correct, because your lawyer didn't submit his name on 280 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: the witness list. 281 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: That is right. 282 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: Had he been able to, we don't We will never 283 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: know what he would have said in the moment. But 284 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: there's a realistic chance that he might have said something 285 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that could have exonerated you. 286 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: Well, at that time, my opinion and believe is that 287 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: he wanted to come forward, and he did come to 288 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: court to testify. And what I realized later is that 289 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: my lawyer sent them home. When they started to question 290 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: my parents about my brother and his whereabouts, they answered 291 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: truthfully that he was here, came to court today to testify, 292 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: and the district attorney stopped the proceeding and asked for 293 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: a sidebar so they can discuss certain things which the 294 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: sonographer records. And at this sidebar, the district attorney wanted 295 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: to bring up my lawyer on charges for lyon about 296 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: the whereabouts of my brother, because early that morning he 297 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: said he don't know where my brother was. He never 298 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: seen them, he never met him. And then it was 299 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: discovered later the same day that my brother was at 300 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: his office that morning and he sent them home. 301 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: Wow, that's a big lie. 302 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: And it's in the trial transcripts. I'm not making it up. 303 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: And he didn't forget that he saw your brother that day. 304 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: No, I mean, because it was right. It was early 305 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: that morning and trial was on and my brother came 306 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: to testify at that time, I believe the best. Now 307 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: I understand why a person would be apprehensive for coming 308 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: forward and trying to tell the truth about what really 309 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 2: took place or who was involved on things of that nature. 310 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he's your little brother. You know, he 311 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: must have had a lot of conflicted emotions. I can't 312 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: imagine being in his place. He's trying to save his 313 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: own life. At the same time, you know, he's got 314 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of guilt about putting you in 315 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: this situation in the first place, because you talk about 316 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: how you never would have been in the system if 317 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: you hadn't have done certain things when you were younger. 318 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: But you also would have never been in this situation 319 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: if your brother hadn't have been involved in this thing 320 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: in the first place. 321 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: I think that I had set a bad president for 322 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: my brother. I believe I was part of the influence. Now. 323 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: I don't know if he looked up to me, but 324 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: I believe that some of my actions are friends that 325 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: I had that was around probably also roughed off on him. Unfortunately, 326 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: I wasn't around for him when he started to engage 327 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: in activities and pick certain people as friends that I 328 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 2: could have probably said, you know, those are the guys 329 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: you shouldn't thing, because what I try to do was 330 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: distance myself from everyone that was in my neighborhood at 331 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 2: that point in time when I started to clear my 332 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: life up. 333 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you basically took the fall for your brother. 334 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't say that I took the fall. They 335 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: gave it to me, right. 336 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: Your last hope was that your lawyer was going to 337 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: do a good job representing you and that the truth 338 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: was going to come out. That's correct, and you were 339 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: going to go back and get on hold your life. 340 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: But in fact, your lawyer was compromised. 341 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: Yes, as it seems. I mean, he was kind of 342 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: like conflicted in between his duties as a lawyer to 343 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: me and also to the people that were paying him 344 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: to represent me, and. 345 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: The people that were paying him were your parents. Yes, 346 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: it's almost like they had a Sophie's choice. They had 347 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: to choose what they did choose and don't if they 348 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: had to choose to save one child for me. 349 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: It is basically, and this was never spoken. This is 350 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: just my thoughts as I got a little older and 351 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: probably start to piece things together that you know he 352 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: had a pass you know he was in trouble before. 353 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: Maybe he could handle this and we would support him. 354 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 2: But my brother, he's the baby, and you know, the 355 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: cops wasn't looking for him. They already gave him a 356 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 2: clean slave and said they didn't want him. Even the 357 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: district attorney said that they had nothing to convict him on. 358 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: So they look for the easy choice, the person that 359 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: had the record. If we can't get his brother, then 360 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: we're going to get him. You served twenty three years. 361 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: Twenty three years in maximum security prisons in New York State. 362 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: Yes, was there a. 363 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: Worst moment and was there a best moment? 364 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: I mean I had a lot of not a lot 365 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: of bad moments, but there's a few. One of my 366 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: worst moments was when I was in green Haven in 367 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine ten. I was in college. I 368 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: was taking Christian Ministry Human Services theology course. I was 369 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 2: working in the barbershop and this particular day, I was 370 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 2: coming from study hall that have my books, and I'm 371 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: going back to my cell and I saw a crate 372 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: and I was like, let me take the create and 373 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: put my school books in because if anything happened to 374 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: the school books, I have to pay for them. This 375 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: is an old maximum security prison, so they have leaks 376 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: and waters dripping all over the place. Sometimes your toilet overflow, 377 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: your sink overflow. Long story short of officers see me 378 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: with the create telling me to put it back. I 379 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: can't have it, and I complied. Supposedly he he must 380 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 2: have spoke to another officer, because another officer calls me 381 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 2: back and started going crazy on me, like what are 382 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: you touching here? You know, don't eff in this, don't 383 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: eff in that. And you know, I just stood there. 384 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 2: I figured, you know, okay, he got his buddies here. 385 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: I'm'a just listen to him, you know, comply and you know, hopefully, 386 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: you know, I can go to my cell and lock in. 387 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: And that wasn't the case, you know. So after he 388 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: started to berate me about, you know, touching stuff and 389 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: his unit and all this other stuff, I said, okay, 390 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sorry. You know, here's the create and 391 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: I turned to leave. And I think at this point 392 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: in time he felt like I was dismissing him, you know, 393 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: or I left without his authority, saying okay, you go, 394 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: and he took offense to me turning to leave, and 395 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: he jumped on me. They beat me up. You see 396 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 2: my elbow, I left elbow. 397 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: Yep, he's got a giant nodding it right. 398 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: My shoulders still hurt to this day. They beat up 399 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: my elbows, they beat up my shoulders, they beat me up. 400 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: They dragged me to the box, and they try to 401 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: charge me with assault. And that was like for me, 402 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: the worst day because everything that I was doing, I 403 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: never had no physical altercations while I was in with 404 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: inmates or officers, anything of that nature. And I'm fighting 405 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: my case and the only thing that's coming to my 406 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: mind is that maybe I have an opportunity to get 407 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: out of prison for my case. But if they try 408 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: to convict me for assault on the staff, which mostly 409 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: everybody gets convicted of, you know, I just seen my 410 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: lights go out. It's your word against officer words. And 411 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: more than one officer is going to say that you 412 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 2: didn't what you didn't do. And it's funny to me 413 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: because it's like I'm saying to myself, like God, how 414 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: does stuff and keep happening to me? And my parents 415 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: they're so religious that you know they would hit you 416 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: with you haven't submitted to God yet, you haven't let go. 417 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 2: You're being tested you're going through the fire. And you know, 418 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: I cried like a baby because I seen my lights 419 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: go out. And maybe this was also the opportunity that 420 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: I seen God working in my life. Because subsequently, guys 421 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: that knew me, that locked on the company with me, 422 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: they have wrote this Attorney's General Office to inspect the general. 423 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: They have wrote Prison Legal Services, And I never knew 424 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: that people probably watched me or cared about me like 425 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: that I'm talking about inmates, hearting criminals or whatever, and 426 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: they inspect the general. When they inspect, the generals came 427 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: to see me, and I had written to them again 428 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: because one of the guys inside the shoe area had 429 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 2: told me, listen, you need to write these people. You 430 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: need to write this person. Da da da da da. 431 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: So I was getting advice from individuals or who I 432 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: have to write, who I have to contact to try 433 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: to get from underneath this, and so I wrote them 434 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: as well. And when they came to see me, you know, 435 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: we talk. He says, well, we have to do our 436 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: investigation and stuff of that nature. And then they came 437 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: to see me, and I guess this is the first 438 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: time in my life that I could say that I've 439 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 2: seen the hand of God, because when he called me 440 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: and they interview me, he says, I have good news 441 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: and bad news. The good news is that we're not 442 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: going to charge you with assault on staff because I've 443 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: read all the reports that came in. I read the 444 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: police reports, and I read not just your report, but 445 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: I got several letters written from other inmates who had 446 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 2: witnessed what took place. And I know that you didn't 447 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: have contact with these individuals because they brought you to 448 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: the box and it says your story and their story 449 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: adds up, and none of the police stories adds up. 450 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: But you have to go through the formalities. I still 451 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: had the hearing to go to, and this is how 452 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: corrupt the Department of Corrections is. I remember the officer 453 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: that had the altercation with me, that smacked me in 454 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: my face and hit me with the sticks and all that. 455 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: And there was two other officers there, but I didn't 456 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 2: remember the two. And the reason why I remember the 457 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: one is he was my company officer. He's there every day. 458 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: The officer that comes in the hearing was in the 459 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: officer that hit me or I had the altercation with 460 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: It was somebody else. And we're going through the formalities 461 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 2: and questioning the officer and stuff like that. So the 462 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: officer said that we were standing the right shoulder, the 463 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: right shoulder, and I took my left hand and punched 464 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: him on the left side of his face. That caused 465 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 2: him to bust his head on the pipes and bust 466 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 2: his head open. And when I started to play if 467 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 2: we stand the right shoulder to shoulder and I hit 468 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: him with my left hand on the left side of 469 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 2: his face, how is that possible. I would have to 470 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: go over It's not come back and hit him, and 471 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: you know so, so I asked the officer to demonstrate 472 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: this punch. Can you demonstrate how I hit you with 473 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 2: my left hand on the left side of your face? 474 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: If we stand the right shoulder the right shoulder, I 475 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: would like for you to demonstrate this. And the hearing 476 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: officer said that there will be no demonstrations in here, 477 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: so he never got to demonstrate, and I, you know, objected, 478 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: and I told him that it's impossible that that can 479 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 2: take place. Long story short, The officer that wrote the 480 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: report or that they brought in that said he wrote 481 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: the report. I asked him, did he see the police 482 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: hit me? And he said yes, So then I asked him, then, 483 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: why is it not written in the report that the 484 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: police struck me. The lieutenant looks and he's like, I said, 485 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: It's not in the ticket, is not in the two 486 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: firmt reports, is not in any document that was given 487 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: to me. So the lieutenant asked the CEO, why is that? 488 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: And maybe at this time he was afraid. I don't 489 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: know what it is, but I believe at this point 490 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: in time, this is when I've seen God worked in 491 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: my life. And he tells the truth. He says, I 492 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: didn't write the report. The lieutenant said, you didn't write 493 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: the report. He said, no, I didn't write the report. 494 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: He said, who wrote the report? He said, a sergeant 495 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: such and such wrote the report. He said, where was 496 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: the sergeant when the incident happened? He wasn't there. The 497 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: sergeant wrote the report, made another officer sign it and 498 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: said in the hearing as the officer who witnessed what 499 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: took place and knew nothing about it. Case closed and 500 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: they dismissed the case. 501 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: Amen to that, or you might not be here now. 502 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: So and we know now that you paroled, And I 503 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: want to get to that because that's a really extraordinary story. 504 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 1: In and of itself, I think it says a lot 505 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: about what the parole board really thought about your claims 506 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: of innocence. But before we get to that, I want 507 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: to talk about what was going on on the outside. 508 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: Because there was a guy in the neighborhood. I mean, 509 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: can we mention his name? 510 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: Well, for legal purposes, you know, I wouldn't like to 511 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: mention his name. It called my case is still being 512 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: reviewed by the conviction Review Unit. So, but this individual 513 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: was a childhood friend of mine. We had haven't seen 514 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: each other in years, and he had moved away from 515 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: the neighborhood. And when he came back to the neighborhood, 516 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: he was looking, you know, for old friends, and you know, 517 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: subsequently he was looking for me and heard that I 518 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 2: was in prison. So he wanted to know why, and 519 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: the whole story came out and he couldn't believe it. 520 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: You know, he took it upon himself to try to 521 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: help me. 522 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: How do you do that? 523 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: Well, the individual who actually committed a crime used to 524 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: see him all the time, and because he's still living 525 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 2: in the neighborhood, mostly people that knew both of us, 526 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: he would ask them, you know, how they felt about him. 527 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 2: It was he still you know, like welcome or they 528 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: still had love for him, knowing that I was in 529 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: prison serving time for a crime that he committed. And 530 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: my friend he was like he couldn't believe this, and 531 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: he's like, this guy just keep saying that he did it. 532 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 2: He did it, and he's the reason why you in prison. 533 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: You know, he wrote me a letter. I showed you 534 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: the letter that he wrote. And he took it upon 535 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 2: himself too to record this individual, to tape them saying 536 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: the same things about me being in prison for a 537 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: crime he committed. And even when as far as that 538 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: he used to he does security bouncing work because he's 539 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: six eight, three hundred something pounds, and this is God 540 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: again in my life. He so happened to be working 541 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: doing security at a spot where Detective Calibres, the leading 542 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 2: detective in my case, was also working. What's the pretty 543 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: long and he spoke to Calabris about the case and 544 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: told him that he had the wrong person in prison 545 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: for the crime. What Calabris said, Calabri's just told him 546 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: tell his brother to come forward and he can get out. 547 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: That was his words. See, because Calabri's knew and he 548 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: had told me as much when he brought me in, 549 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: you know, because he was like, where's your brother wears 550 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 2: his friends and I'm like, I don't know. I'm not 551 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: my brother's keeper. You know, I don't live with my brother. 552 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: I live with my wife. But he didn't care about that. 553 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: And you know, once things start to unravel in the 554 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: conviction review unit and they start to review my case, 555 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: they reached out to him two to three weeks after 556 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 2: they reviewed my case and next thing, you know, self 557 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: inflicted wounds somewhere in his car. You know, he took 558 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: his own life. 559 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like his conscience may have gotten to 560 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: him and we'll never know because he didn't leave a 561 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: note or anything, right, but the timing seems. 562 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: Really to be suspicious. 563 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the conviction review unit starts looking into 564 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: your case, it's inevitable that they're going to find out 565 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: what happened. Because the conviction Review unit in Brooklyn, I 566 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: can say this, they don't fuck around. But these guys 567 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: are under the leadership of Eric Gonzales and before that, 568 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: Ken Thompson. They are committed to finding and identifying and 569 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: resolving wrong for conviction cases. And they've been doing it 570 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: and walking the walk and so once they took over 571 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: reinvestigating your case, Detective Calabriezi must have known that some 572 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: of his misdeeds were going to become public. 573 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 2: Yes, he did everything from interviewing the witnesses to getting 574 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: the fillers for the lineups, conducting the lineup. I mean, 575 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: nobody else did anything. His name is on all the reports. 576 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: So the guy who holds the key is dead. Now 577 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: you went to the parole board, Yes, and you did 578 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite of what all the smartest people you knew, 579 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: or the most the wisest people, I should say, were 580 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: advising you to do. Right. 581 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie, you know. I was very apprehensives 582 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 2: and rustle with it. You know, as my wife was 583 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: his she would tell you, you know, because knowing what I 584 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: know now, I had told her and I told her 585 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 2: before that if I had a chance to do this 586 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: all over again, I probably would have copped out to 587 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 2: something less right. 588 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: So I was gonna say is when you go to 589 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: the parole board, the general rule, and this is with 590 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: very very rare exceptions, the parole board wants to hear 591 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: you express remorse time, whether you committed it or not. 592 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 1: They don't know whether you committed it. They don't have 593 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: time to reinvestigate it. In New York State, the parole 594 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: board is reviewing ten thousand cases, around ten thousand cases 595 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: a year, and there's only somewhere between twelve and nineteen 596 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: people for the entire state in panels of three, So 597 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: they have a few minutes to look into your case. 598 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: They don't have time to go through it, even like 599 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: we're doing now. So it would be great if they did, 600 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: but they don't. They're only human beings, you know, they 601 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: don't have so much time in the day. So the 602 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: logical thing to do for somebody like you who's desperate 603 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: to get out and get back with your family and 604 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: get back on, you know, to your life, is to 605 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: just plead guilty, and then they're most likely going to say, okay, 606 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: well you've served twenty three years and you've done you know, 607 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: ministry and all this other stuff in prison. 608 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can go home now. But you didn't know. 609 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 2: And I mean I rustle with it. I prayed about 610 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: it because I want to go home. You know, what 611 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: should I do? I mean, even though all these years 612 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 2: I'm telling them I didn't commit the crime. Now I'm 613 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: up for parole. What do I do Do I go 614 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: in there and put on a show and say that 615 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: I'm remorse and I'm sorry and that you know, you know, 616 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what to say but the truth. And 617 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: I wrestle with it. And I mean, like, people is 618 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: telling me, don't go in there and tell them that 619 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 2: you didn't do it. They're going to hit you. They're 620 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 2: going to give you more time. And I said, well, 621 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: I'm going in there and I'm going to tell them 622 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 2: what I've been telling them since the beginning. I didn't 623 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 2: commit the crime, but I understand why it's possible for 624 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: individual like me to be considered for a crime such 625 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 2: as this, you know. And I'm going to give them 626 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 2: my story about my past, how I came to be 627 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 2: here today, and what I've done since I was incarcerated, 628 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: and what I plan to do when I get out. 629 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 2: And for that whole ten days after that, I had 630 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 2: to wait to get the results, seven to ten days. 631 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 2: It was the worst week of my life. No sleep, 632 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 2: no sleep, cause that whole week I already felt cause 633 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 2: the way that they spoke to me inside the parole board, 634 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: I felt that there wasn't gonna release me. My counselor 635 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: gives me the envelope. I open it and to be honest, 636 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 2: my eyes are teared up cause I'm and I'm looking 637 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 2: for the worst. And it's sad to say I'm looking 638 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: for denial. I'm just looking for any word with a 639 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 2: D for denial, refuse, whatever. And I I didn't see 640 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 2: and my counselor's like you okay, I said, yeah, I 641 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 2: just I can't find the decision. So he's like, well, 642 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 2: give it to me, and he highlights it he knew before, 643 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 2: and he give it back to me, and I couldn't 644 00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 2: believe it. They let me go and I'll be lying 645 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: out of there, you know, call my family and told 646 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: them and it was overjoyed, but it was it's still 647 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 2: a lot now just thinking about it. 648 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. Nobody can imagine that hasn't been through it. 649 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 2: You know, that was the best moment for me in prison. 650 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 2: That and learning some stuff about myself because you know, 651 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: like I became the director of the Used Assystem program 652 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,959 Speaker 2: and I used to mentor teens that used to bring 653 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: high school kids in and I used to speak to 654 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 2: them about my life story, about how I end up 655 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 2: serving a life scientists for a crime I didn't commit, 656 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 2: and how easy it is for you to find yourself 657 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: in situations like this by the company that you keeping, 658 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 2: choices that you make, and the brochure that I penned 659 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 2: had the title you know you never get a second 660 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 2: chance for or suppression. 661 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: It's been an extraordinary experience for me getting to know 662 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: you and learning about your story. Of course, you know, 663 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: I thank you for coming in and sharing it, and 664 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: I think that through your words, it's going to inspire 665 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people to keep fighting whatever they're up against. 666 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: And now it's time for my favorite part of the show. 667 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: Fans of the podcast know that this is the time 668 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: when I turn off my microphone and just sit back 669 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: and leave your microphone on. For closing arguments. 670 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 2: I guess one of the most things that I could 671 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 2: possibly say is for jurors, because district attorneys is going 672 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 2: to be them. They trying to win cases. Officers are 673 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 2: trying to lock people up. But as a jural is 674 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 2: your job. 675 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 3: To discern the truth, to find the truth, and sometimes 676 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 3: I guess they get more clouded by what took place 677 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 3: as opposed to what is the truth, and so emotions 678 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 3: come into play with everything as opposed. 679 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: To rationale, and that's why you can find individuals such 680 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 2: as myself in positions like this where you can do 681 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 2: time for a crime you didn't commit, because people's emotions 682 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 2: are more tied up in the event, but not trying 683 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,280 Speaker 2: to find the actual truth when they sit on jerors 684 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: on jury. I believe part of that outside of what 685 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 2: the disc attorney did, the detective did, the jurors are 686 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 2: the ones who has the final say, and if they 687 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: don't use rationale to decipher the truth from the garbage 688 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: that is being spewed out there, that's why there's so 689 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 2: many of us in prison wrongfully. Anyone out there it 690 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: is going through a situation such as this, just continue fighting. 691 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: No one knows what the future holds. 692 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 4: And as hope, don't forget to give us a fantastic 693 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 4: review wherever you get your podcasts. 694 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the 695 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: Enniscence Project and I really hope you'll join me in 696 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future 697 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how 698 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our 699 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in 700 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 701 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction 702 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with 703 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 704 00:40:53,239 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one