WEBVTT - Will Elon Musk Step Away From Twitter? 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Bresso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:11.600 In a few months that Elon Musk has been at 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.680 the helm of Twitter, there's been chaos at the social 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.080 media platform, his laying off more than half of Twitter's workforce, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.639 quickly issuing rules and policies that have often led to 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.960 lightning fast reversals soon after being made public, suspending people 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:33.800 from the platform for questionable reasons, tweeting misinformation, posting tasteless jokes, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.680 and scaring off advertisers with his antics. On Tuesday, Musk 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.720 announce plans to find someone else to run the company 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.720 after his own Twitter poll showed almost fifty eight percent 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.159 of voters wanted him to step down. My guest is 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.000 Eric Cally, professor at Columbia Law School. Musk plans to 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.560 resign as CEO as soon as I find someone foolish 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.600 enough to take the job. Who would be foolish enough 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.240 to take a job when they'll be CEO in name only. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.400 It's an interesting job advertisement. To be sure, I'm not 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.880 really sure that I think we have the one person 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.840 who is foolish enough to take the job and as 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.120 Elon Busk, but it makes it even harder when he 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.920 has said, yes, I'm gonna find a CEO, but I'm 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.560 still gonna be in charge of a subsidiary part of Twitter. 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.880 So how does that CEO even operate when you're controlling 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.560 shareholder is also running one of your division. Can the 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.480 CEO discipline Mr Bosk for failure to perform? It's it's 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.920 a very very precarious situation. So, you know, managing Twitter 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:42.280 is already a pretty big ask. Managing it when you 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.520 know you are the boss to the person who is 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.520 your boss is gonna be an even bigger lift. So, 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.280 you know, I'm not really sure he's gonna find a 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.640 lot of takers, or to the extent that he does 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.400 find takers, they are largely going to be sort of 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.600 lieutenant to him in any respect. And that's white, frankly, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.440 doesn't help with some of the other challenges that Mr 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.720 Busk is facing, particularly from his shareholders and investors at 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.679 other companies, and notably I'll the tesla here. You know, 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:15.440 they have become much more audibly uppity about you know, 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.640 his travails over at Twitter. Uh, and whether that that 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.480 entire enterprise is not only distracting him but may also 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.839 be you know, sort of contrary to the better interests 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.280 of Tesla in terms of developing its markets and make 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.600 sure it's products are reliable and coming off the production line. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.400 You know, heading into a very very challenging period of 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:44.800 time for Tesla. Shareholders are agitated after a drop in 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:50.320 the company's value this year, and some have urged the 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.400 board to replace Musk. But is that board ever going 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:58.359 to do anything like that. Possibly it would be quite 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.000 a challenge to do so, give and what a central 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.240 role he has and continues to play at Tesla. It's 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.080 important to realize that that Mr Munk, compared to Twitter, 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.960 Mr Muski, is only about shareholder at Tesla, and that's declining, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.400 you know, every time I pick up the newspaper. So 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.720 he's you know, selling off more and more shares of Tesla. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.960 So it's not um completely out of the out of 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.720 the realm of possibility that he might end up being 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.840 moved out as the CEO of Tesla. But you know, 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.560 it's not really clear whose interest ultimately that serves as 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.280 the alternative is to really find someone to take over 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.600 Twitter and for him to sort of concentrate in you know, 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.640 a much more deliberative way on what's happening over at 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.240 at Tesla. That's sort of where he his bread and 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.600 butter and his power alley is anyway, and social media 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:50.600 has always, you know, seemed to be a bit of 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.920 a sideline for him. So, you know, in many respects, 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.320 if it's one we're sort of thinking, you know, Mr 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.080 Muski needs to be put to his highest and best use, 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.160 and he has to be thinking this as well. You've 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.640 got to figure it is over at Tesla and not 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.080 at Twitter, but it's not clear at least at this stage. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.480 That's the way that things are going to evolve over time. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.120 He's you know, put himself into kind of an an 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:18.880 odd situation where he's made a gigantic, undiversified bet in 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.719 Twitter's future success. It's gonna be you know, quite a 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.600 slog to see how that plays out. He may not 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.839 be able to help himself, but to you know, attend 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.159 to micromanaging things over at Twitter simply because of the 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.880 large stake that he has wrapped up in it. Uh. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.039 Contrary when you think about Tesla, Yeah, Tesla's lost a 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.000 lot of market value. Uh, it's lost it in part 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.680 because of the crowded base that electric vehicles are increasingly 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.479 becoming Tesla is no longer the only player in this area. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.720 Now some of the big traditional automakers are coming in 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.640 in both feet into the pool, and that's just going 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.360 to create a much more challenging environment, not to mentioned 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.000 the macro economic environment in which carmakers all find themselves. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.840 And so this is gonna be a trajectory of of 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.720 Tesla and how to steward it through that coming trajectory 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.400 is going to be a big challenge to whoever is 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:15.920 at the helm of Tesla. And it sort of makes 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.880 sense from the Tesla shareholders perspectives that they don't want 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.080 someone that is, you know, kind of encumbered with various 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.840 types of of distractions that may be you know, independent 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:30.320 or possibly antagonistic to the best interests of Tesla. And 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.400 you know, that's another issue that I think is a 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.880 hard one to figure out here. You know, Mr Musk's 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.680 public presence over Twitter and his you know, continued inability 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.760 to to muzzle his own tweets have also you know, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.960 taken a turn in a fairly political direction in the 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.520 last month and a half, you know, and he has 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.000 he sort of allied himself much more with sort of 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.920 conservative ends of the political spectrum that's not necessarily consistent 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.320 with how Tesla is going to be in a good 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.120 position to further it's market share. You know, generally the 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.320 folks that buy electric cars are not the cat diesel 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.520 power baseball hat wearing truck, right. They tend to be, 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:13.159 you know, the folks who were, you know, kind of 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.280 worried about carbon footprint and global warming and they want 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.719 to save the planet. And that crew tends to be 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.880 disproportionately drawn from the more sort of centrist to progressive 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.000 wings of the United States, at least as present. So 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.440 by taking what seems to be kind of an antagonistic 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.560 position over Twitter, there's like lots of reasons to believe 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:39.039 that Mr Musk has actually, you know, not only gotten distracted, 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.880 but he may even have cannibalized some of the best 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:46.240 sources of loyal customers over at Tesla. Speaking of the 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:50.560 latest controversy, because it seems like there's one controversy after another. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.000 He claims that he's a free speech absolutist, and yet 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:59.520 there have been instances where he suspends the accounts of 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.279 journalists and others where it seems like the reason is 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.560 they said something critical about him. I mean, he can 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.840 do whatever he wants, right, but what's the effect? Well, 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.080 I guess, in fairness to Mr musk when he proclaimed 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.320 himself to be a free speech absolutist, he didn't put 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.720 an important modifier on that, which is who's free speech? 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.200 And evidently he's an absolutist about his own free speech, 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.520 but when it comes to other people's speech, maybe a 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.680 little bit less of an absolutist position. I think this 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.400 is an issue that has long worried people that you know, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.080 on some level. Once you get deep into the weeds, 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.160 you know, part of a hard challenge that is in 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.160 front of anyone who's doing some type of content moderation 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.840 on platforms like this is how do you do it 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:47.600 in a completely viewpoint neutral way. It's a big challenge, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.720 and it's something that probably needs to draw on a 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.840 lot of different inputs. Your Musk has, maybe, you know, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.960 by necessity, decided that the inputs that he's been drawn 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.080 are his own intuitions, and therefore, you know, many things 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:05.000 that we never realized were dangerous forms of doxing turn 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.440 out to be doxing from his perspective. You know, reporting 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.280 news about Mr musk um criticizing Mr musk. You know 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.360 that those are the types of things, at least if 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.120 you've got a large following on Twitter or you know, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.720 in the in the public press, that may be something 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.840 that that he either genuinely feels threatened by and feels 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.200 is dangerous or just sort of doesn't want to give 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.440 it a public airing on the platform that he owns, 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.040 and has decided in a somewhat impetuous and a little 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.479 bit vindictive way to pull the critics off of the platform. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.840 It's hard to imagine how that then sort of computes 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.600 into a free speech absolutist position. I think he abandoned 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.120 that long ago, and Twitter still, you know, has a 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.200 chance to be what he or whoever is controlling it 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.960 and maybe even owning it makes of it. But he 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.280 is not um thus far in his track record stewarding Twitter, 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.319 he has on acted in a way that seems consistent 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.679 with some of his own proclamations earlier on about how 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.800 much he values the freedom of expression in the marketplace 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.640 of ideas. There's some backlash from lawmakers in the EU. 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.760 A vice president of the European Commission said the arbitrary 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:21.400 suspension of journalists violated the e use Digital Services Act 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.760 and it's Media Freedom Act. There's a backlash from lawmakers 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.439 in the EU. The Vice President of the European Commission 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.680 said his moves violated the e USE Digital Service Act 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.680 and it's Media Freedom Act. So where he might be 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.720 safe in the US, he might have problems in the EU. 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.040 It's a big issue for any global company because you 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:48.400 are not necessarily, you know, going to be fine simply 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:53.240 by you know, abiding by the jurisdictional rules and regulations 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.920 of even the largest jurisdiction that you're operating in. Once 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:01.319 you're operating across jurisdiction, you have a senti many masters 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.120 to figure out and attend to. And with the EU, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.199 they've long had a much more aggressive position on the 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.040 social media content, the right to be forgotten and so forth, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.640 and so it's just not surprising that the EU regulators 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.160 are going to be a tougher sell than US regulators, 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.319 you know, on that score as well. It's probably worth 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.000 noting that Senator Warren herself has come out of the 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.160 woodwork to tick the tires not on musk stewardship of Twitter, 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.400 but on whether he's breaching his duties to Tesla and 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:37.079 Testlas shareholders. Now that's kind of an interesting position for 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.400 Senator Warren, who's you know, much more of a kind 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.840 of a stakeholder identified commentator, to be sort of, you know, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.840 worried about test La shareholders. But on some level it 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.960 speaks to the complexity of the situation that he's in. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.360 You know, when you are so heavily connected to two 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.520 companies that are not in the same industry that maybe 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.560 in some cases working across purposes, it's going to be 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.520 hard to stay out of regulators sites. And so the 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.120 European regulators seemed to have a lot more to say 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.640 about decisions made and not made at Twitter. Maybe that 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.000 that US regulators, by the same token, are are going 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.880 to increasingly come down harder on how Mr Musk is 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.680 affecting that the running and the outcomes at Tesla. Well, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:29.720 the FTC has apparently expanded its investigation into security concerns 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:34.439 at Twitter. This was an investigation and a consent decree 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.880 to pre existed his his purchase of the company, and 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.120 uh and Twitter, you know very much, you know, was 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.760 was under ongoing obligations and is under ongoing obligations to 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:52.120 comply with that consent decree. And and FTC has authority 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.600 and in many ways a duty to ensure that that 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.800 compliance is ongoing. One of the first moves that Mr 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.720 Musk made once he took control of Twitter in late 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.600 October was to lay off, you know, a substantial portion 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.480 of the staff, many of whom were responsible from ensuring 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:12.720 that compliance was unfolding in a reasonable way with this 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.480 FTC consent decree. So you know, there again, it's in 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:21.280 a it's another situation where it's proven quite difficult for 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.480 Mr Musk to make managerial moves which he you know, 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.920 seems to have a proclivity to make by shooting from 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:33.360 the hip and not to arouse lawmakers and regulators, uh 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:38.080 suspicions and criticism. And you know, I wouldn't expect this 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.960 to abate anytime soon. Uh. You know, the FTC has 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.120 is extremely active these days in a bunch of different realms, 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.800 and you know, in many respects Mr Musk has has 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.240 kind of made their job a little easier. Are in 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.440 some of his more controversial actions protected to a large 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.400 degree because Twitter is a private company. Now not necessarily 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.360 when a company the private company, that means that one 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.520 area of law securities law dealing with the rights of 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.560 public shareholders is at least in part not going to apply. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.319 But that doesn't mean that you get a hall path 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.319 on every other regulatory constraint that faces companies, and those 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:22.800 include content restrictions. Those also include employment restrictions. And so 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.080 when when you think about the various lenses that that 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.520 Mr must finds himself under from regulators, they tend, at 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.600 least with respect to what he's doing at Twitter, they 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.280 tend not to be securities regulators as much as former 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.320 employee or you know, FTC regulators that are really about 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:45.040 not protecting shareholders but protecting users and customers. Simply being 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.480 a privately held company does not get you out of 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:53.119 the jurisdictional scope of the FTC or any other regulator 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.199 whose purpose is not to regulate your relationship with your 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.720 public shareholds. So yes, the sec doesn't play as larger 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.760 or all here, but just about every other regulator in 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.600 the United States and Europe is going to continue to 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.160 play a role, just like they did before Twitter went private. 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.520 Instead of asking you what he did wrong, I want 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.920 to ask you what do you think he has done 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.120 right since he owned Twitter. Well, a couple of things 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.520 that I think are probably worth noting First of all, 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.400 it was clear that once he took hold of Twitter, 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.280 he was taking hold of a company whose historical revenue 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.920 patterns simply did not match up with what was going 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.480 to be required to service the debt. And so, you know, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.240 some people criticize Mr Muskin. Look, I've been one of 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.560 them for, you know, in some respects taking you know, 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.280 fairly extreme and and you know, sort of bold and 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:49.120 quite risky tactics when he was making decisions, and then 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.120 you know, sometimes rolling them back on some level. I 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.240 don't think you can really avoid that simply because you know, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.680 a company that really needs to pivot um may have 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.240 to pivot using you know, a relatively bold and not 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.200 fully tried out strategy. So I don't really fault Mr 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.280 Musk necessarily for the you know, idea that he's trying 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.760 on a whole bunch of new approaches and policies that 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.720 haven't been tried before. I do fault him a little 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:17.920 bit for not vetting that a little bit more. They 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.680 seem to be kind of almost management by fever dream 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.080 rather than even having a group of people to sort 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.200 of bounce these ideas off, even if it's in a 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:31.840 relatively short order. But It doesn't surprise me that anyone 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.920 who's you know, you know, basically trying to keep a 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.040 company afloat that's got a fairly significant debtload isn't going 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.440 to be you know, thinking about different, possibly quite major 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.120 strategy changes that they may undertake. You know, there's probably 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.920 some back room um jockeying right now going on that 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.680 we're not aware of, But I would not be surprised 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.560 at all if Mr Musk isn't negotiating with some of 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.400 the banks that holds at least certain parts of the 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.000 debt that is going to have to start paying off 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.160 interest in the coming months. That has been a particularly 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.400 difficult thing for the banks to sell on to outside investors. 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.080 So a lot of those banks have just kept that 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.520 debt on their own books. And usually the way this 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.920 works is they try to find a syndicate of investors 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.280 who are willing to buy the debt from them, and 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.680 there don't seem to be too many takers at least 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.880 anywhere close to you know, hundred cents on the dollar 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.520 in terms of those obligations. That actually, in some ways 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.880 may create an opportunity for Mr Musk to approach the 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.320 banks and say, well, why don't you let me personally 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.240 buy back this debt. But I'm not going to buy 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.040 it back at a hundred cents on the dollar either, 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.680 But I'll give you, you know, a price thats competitive 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.840 relative to what you can get from someone else. And 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.480 there's almost a sense in which, if that is what's happening, 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.080 then some of the behavior that Mr Musk is engaged 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.480 in right now that I think if I were a 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.080 bank that had lent money to to Twitter, it may 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.080 be very very nervous. Well, that also might make my 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.880 price come down when I when I am bargaining with 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.439 him to try to figure out how much I'm willing 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.840 to basically sell back that debt to him, you know, 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.440 would it be sixty cents on the dollar fifty eight 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.879 cents on the dollars? So there may well be a 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.400 few chapters yet that we have to have to see. 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.320 The other thing that I think is probably worth noting 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.760 is that, notwithstanding the fact that Twitter has, you know, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.360 it's it's clearly still the most dominant platform out there. 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.080 And you know, even as as Mr Musk has kind 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.520 of engaged in, you know, what seems to be pretty 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.280 erratic behavior, a lot of people have claimed quite publicly 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.040 they're leaving Twitter, and and you know, you sort of 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.399 see him wander back a little bit later on because 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.560 it's still one of the more lively platforms out there. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.159 And I think, you know, one of the things that 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.280 he is trying to do is some of these other 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.040 competitors that have emerged in the last few years for 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.520 more conservative posters are also you know, not necessarily having 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.160 a feeding frenzy of success, the parlors and the truth socials. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.679 I think he, you know, is trying to move those 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.440 users back onto Twitter, and I think there's some evidence 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.399 that he's been successful in doing that. So there is 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.280 a sense in which the size of the network on 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.800 Twitter has actually grown a little bit. Their advertising revenues 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.600 haven't haven't reflected that they haven't been very successful at 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.359 monetizing that growth, but at least they have sort of maintained, 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.399 if not slightly shored up their position as a you know, 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.720 kind of a central hub of social networking. It remains 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.320 to be seen whether that can be monetized in any 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.639 successful way. A lot of advertisers have gotten nervous about that, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.879 simply because they're now quite worried that their own advertisements 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.320 are going to be put up next to you know, 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.479 content that would have been acted with the prior content 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.560 moderation policies, but now it's sort of left out there 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.760 and can be fairly volatile content. So there may still 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.720 be a lot more squeamishness by advertisers, but at the 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.159 very least I think they know that they are, you know, 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.800 seeing a user base that that appears to remain robot. 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.760 Mr Musk's own notoriety might well have played partly a 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.000 role in that as well. Uh, you know, notwithstanding the 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.800 fact that um, you know, he used to be behaving 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.639 in a really erratic way. There are a lot of 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.679 people that still like to tweet about one main topic, 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.960 which is Mr Musk, and to that point, about content 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:28.040 that advertisers may not want their advertisements next to. The 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.840 New York Times analyze tweets from more than a thousand 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:37.159 users whose accounts were recently reinstated, and many of the 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.840 users are posting about topics that got them barred in 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:45.080 the first place, COVID skepticism, election denialism, and Q and on. 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.960 So is that going to hurt the platform? It may 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.720 well hurt the platform if it's the key goal here 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:59.240 is to try to monetize the user base at Twitter. Uh, 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.280 you know, advertisers have long been the main source of 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.639 revenue there, and to the extent that they are going 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.080 to continue to be the main source of revenue there, 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:10.320 I think you have to, you know, put yourself in 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.840 the shoes of an advertiser who is who is you know, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.840 understandably quite squeamish about whether somehow their product is being 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.159 linked to salacious content that they had no idea it 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.240 would be linked to. And the odds are you know, 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:30.879 somewhat greater once those posters are back on Twitter. Now 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.720 they have their own following, So possibly for some advertisers, 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:38.040 Uh that's a plot. But the numbers that I've seen 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:40.760 coming out of Twitter, the ones that have leaked out, 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:45.600 sort of suggests that advertisers are quite nervous about this move. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.359 And so if advertisers are gonna sit on the sidelines 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.959 because of the relaxation of at least this type of 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.879 content moderation, how do they make up for this in 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.640 other ways? And you know that you know, Twitter itself 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.399 is you know, now trying to figure out, you know, 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.560 how to slice, dice and julian every version of a 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.240 verified user that you can pay for that um is 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.320 within the realm of imagination. You know. How much that 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.919 captures people's imaginations I think remains to be seen. I 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:19.160 think there are a lot of folks for whom the 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.560 the idea of you know, paying for a blue check 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.000 or a green check or a great check or whatever 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.560 color of the check is is it never was the 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.280 real reason to you know, you know, become a you know, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.280 a verified user on Twitter and just not gonna send 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.240 the same message that it did before. So I have 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.639 some you know, I have some concerns that as Twitter 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.479 loses a lot of advertising revenue, it's gonna have a 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.560 hard time making it up with other services. Now it's 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.760 going to be throwing a few haymakers to try to 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.960 become kind of the central media hub of everything that 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.399 everyone does, making a marketplace, make it a chat tool, 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.840 and and so forth. And it's got some of that 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:05.520 functionality now, though it hasn't really sort of become dominant 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.040 in a lot of those other areas, and it still 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:10.320 remains to be seen whether that's going to happen. But 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:14.040 in the absence of being able to substantially amp up 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.479 advertising dollars, that money's got to come from somewhere, and 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:19.760 right now, I think you know what we're seeing, and 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.720 you know, kind of on a weekly basis is you know, 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.600 somewhat of a careening set of strategies attempting to figure 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:30.400 out where he can get some traction to actually increase 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.640 revenue streams to the company. Thanks so much for being 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.920 on the show. Eric. That's Professor Eric Talley of Columbia 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:47.000 Law School. One who makes you larger and one who 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:58.919 makes you small and mother, don't do anything. Many people 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:04.000 associating magic mushrooms with the psychedelic sixties, with hippies and 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:08.040 rock stars following mystics on the fringes and experimenting. But 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.760 it's a whole different story today as psychedelic drugs are 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:16.159 being accepted by many in the mainstream. How mainstream. The 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.720 powerhouse lawyer in the paramount series The Good Fight, played 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.199 by Christine Baranski, went through a course of treatment with 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.919 psilocybin in the last season. And what are your services? 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:29.920 Dr Bettencourt? Is this like ketamine pt one? To wait? 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:33.080 It's less powerful. You come in here twice a week. 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.760