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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Bresso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: In a few months that Elon Musk has been at

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Speaker 1: the helm of Twitter, there's been chaos at the social

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Speaker 1: media platform, his laying off more than half of Twitter's workforce,

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Speaker 1: quickly issuing rules and policies that have often led to

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Speaker 1: lightning fast reversals soon after being made public, suspending people

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Speaker 1: from the platform for questionable reasons, tweeting misinformation, posting tasteless jokes,

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Speaker 1: and scaring off advertisers with his antics. On Tuesday, Musk

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Speaker 1: announce plans to find someone else to run the company

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Speaker 1: after his own Twitter poll showed almost fifty eight percent

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Speaker 1: of voters wanted him to step down. My guest is

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Speaker 1: Eric Cally, professor at Columbia Law School. Musk plans to

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Speaker 1: resign as CEO as soon as I find someone foolish

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Speaker 1: enough to take the job. Who would be foolish enough

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Speaker 1: to take a job when they'll be CEO in name only.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting job advertisement. To be sure, I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure that I think we have the one person

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Speaker 1: who is foolish enough to take the job and as

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Speaker 1: Elon Busk, but it makes it even harder when he

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Speaker 1: has said, yes, I'm gonna find a CEO, but I'm

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Speaker 1: still gonna be in charge of a subsidiary part of Twitter.

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Speaker 1: So how does that CEO even operate when you're controlling

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Speaker 1: shareholder is also running one of your division. Can the

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Speaker 1: CEO discipline Mr Bosk for failure to perform? It's it's

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Speaker 1: a very very precarious situation. So, you know, managing Twitter

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Speaker 1: is already a pretty big ask. Managing it when you

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Speaker 1: know you are the boss to the person who is

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Speaker 1: your boss is gonna be an even bigger lift. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not really sure he's gonna find a

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Speaker 1: lot of takers, or to the extent that he does

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Speaker 1: find takers, they are largely going to be sort of

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Speaker 1: lieutenant to him in any respect. And that's white, frankly,

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Speaker 1: doesn't help with some of the other challenges that Mr

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Speaker 1: Busk is facing, particularly from his shareholders and investors at

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Speaker 1: other companies, and notably I'll the tesla here. You know,

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Speaker 1: they have become much more audibly uppity about you know,

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Speaker 1: his travails over at Twitter. Uh, and whether that that

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Speaker 1: entire enterprise is not only distracting him but may also

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Speaker 1: be you know, sort of contrary to the better interests

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Speaker 1: of Tesla in terms of developing its markets and make

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Speaker 1: sure it's products are reliable and coming off the production line.

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Speaker 1: You know, heading into a very very challenging period of

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Speaker 1: time for Tesla. Shareholders are agitated after a drop in

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Speaker 1: the company's value this year, and some have urged the

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Speaker 1: board to replace Musk. But is that board ever going

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Speaker 1: to do anything like that. Possibly it would be quite

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Speaker 1: a challenge to do so, give and what a central

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Speaker 1: role he has and continues to play at Tesla. It's

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Speaker 1: important to realize that that Mr Munk, compared to Twitter,

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Speaker 1: Mr Muski, is only about shareholder at Tesla, and that's declining,

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Speaker 1: you know, every time I pick up the newspaper. So

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Speaker 1: he's you know, selling off more and more shares of Tesla.

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Speaker 1: So it's not um completely out of the out of

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Speaker 1: the realm of possibility that he might end up being

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Speaker 1: moved out as the CEO of Tesla. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not really clear whose interest ultimately that serves as

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Speaker 1: the alternative is to really find someone to take over

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Speaker 1: Twitter and for him to sort of concentrate in you know,

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Speaker 1: a much more deliberative way on what's happening over at

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Speaker 1: at Tesla. That's sort of where he his bread and

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Speaker 1: butter and his power alley is anyway, and social media

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Speaker 1: has always, you know, seemed to be a bit of

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Speaker 1: a sideline for him. So, you know, in many respects,

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Speaker 1: if it's one we're sort of thinking, you know, Mr

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Speaker 1: Muski needs to be put to his highest and best use,

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Speaker 1: and he has to be thinking this as well. You've

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Speaker 1: got to figure it is over at Tesla and not

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Speaker 1: at Twitter, but it's not clear at least at this stage.

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Speaker 1: That's the way that things are going to evolve over time.

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Speaker 1: He's you know, put himself into kind of an an

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Speaker 1: odd situation where he's made a gigantic, undiversified bet in

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Speaker 1: Twitter's future success. It's gonna be you know, quite a

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Speaker 1: slog to see how that plays out. He may not

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Speaker 1: be able to help himself, but to you know, attend

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Speaker 1: to micromanaging things over at Twitter simply because of the

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Speaker 1: large stake that he has wrapped up in it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Contrary when you think about Tesla, Yeah, Tesla's lost a

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Speaker 1: lot of market value. Uh, it's lost it in part

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Speaker 1: because of the crowded base that electric vehicles are increasingly

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Speaker 1: becoming Tesla is no longer the only player in this area.

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Speaker 1: Now some of the big traditional automakers are coming in

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Speaker 1: in both feet into the pool, and that's just going

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Speaker 1: to create a much more challenging environment, not to mentioned

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Speaker 1: the macro economic environment in which carmakers all find themselves.

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Speaker 1: And so this is gonna be a trajectory of of

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Speaker 1: Tesla and how to steward it through that coming trajectory

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Speaker 1: is going to be a big challenge to whoever is

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Speaker 1: at the helm of Tesla. And it sort of makes

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Speaker 1: sense from the Tesla shareholders perspectives that they don't want

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Speaker 1: someone that is, you know, kind of encumbered with various

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Speaker 1: types of of distractions that may be you know, independent

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Speaker 1: or possibly antagonistic to the best interests of Tesla. And

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Speaker 1: you know, that's another issue that I think is a

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Speaker 1: hard one to figure out here. You know, Mr Musk's

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Speaker 1: public presence over Twitter and his you know, continued inability

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Speaker 1: to to muzzle his own tweets have also you know,

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Speaker 1: taken a turn in a fairly political direction in the

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Speaker 1: last month and a half, you know, and he has

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Speaker 1: he sort of allied himself much more with sort of

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Speaker 1: conservative ends of the political spectrum that's not necessarily consistent

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Speaker 1: with how Tesla is going to be in a good

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Speaker 1: position to further it's market share. You know, generally the

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Speaker 1: folks that buy electric cars are not the cat diesel

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Speaker 1: power baseball hat wearing truck, right. They tend to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, the folks who were, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: worried about carbon footprint and global warming and they want

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Speaker 1: to save the planet. And that crew tends to be

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Speaker 1: disproportionately drawn from the more sort of centrist to progressive

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Speaker 1: wings of the United States, at least as present. So

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Speaker 1: by taking what seems to be kind of an antagonistic

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Speaker 1: position over Twitter, there's like lots of reasons to believe

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Speaker 1: that Mr Musk has actually, you know, not only gotten distracted,

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Speaker 1: but he may even have cannibalized some of the best

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Speaker 1: sources of loyal customers over at Tesla. Speaking of the

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Speaker 1: latest controversy, because it seems like there's one controversy after another.

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Speaker 1: He claims that he's a free speech absolutist, and yet

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Speaker 1: there have been instances where he suspends the accounts of

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Speaker 1: journalists and others where it seems like the reason is

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Speaker 1: they said something critical about him. I mean, he can

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Speaker 1: do whatever he wants, right, but what's the effect? Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess, in fairness to Mr musk when he proclaimed

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Speaker 1: himself to be a free speech absolutist, he didn't put

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Speaker 1: an important modifier on that, which is who's free speech?

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Speaker 1: And evidently he's an absolutist about his own free speech,

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Speaker 1: but when it comes to other people's speech, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit less of an absolutist position. I think this

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Speaker 1: is an issue that has long worried people that you know,

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Speaker 1: on some level. Once you get deep into the weeds,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of a hard challenge that is in

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Speaker 1: front of anyone who's doing some type of content moderation

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Speaker 1: on platforms like this is how do you do it

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Speaker 1: in a completely viewpoint neutral way. It's a big challenge,

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Speaker 1: and it's something that probably needs to draw on a

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Speaker 1: lot of different inputs. Your Musk has, maybe, you know,

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Speaker 1: by necessity, decided that the inputs that he's been drawn

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Speaker 1: are his own intuitions, and therefore, you know, many things

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Speaker 1: that we never realized were dangerous forms of doxing turn

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Speaker 1: out to be doxing from his perspective. You know, reporting

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Speaker 1: news about Mr musk um criticizing Mr musk. You know

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Speaker 1: that those are the types of things, at least if

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Speaker 1: you've got a large following on Twitter or you know,

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Speaker 1: in the in the public press, that may be something

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Speaker 1: that that he either genuinely feels threatened by and feels

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Speaker 1: is dangerous or just sort of doesn't want to give

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Speaker 1: it a public airing on the platform that he owns,

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Speaker 1: and has decided in a somewhat impetuous and a little

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Speaker 1: bit vindictive way to pull the critics off of the platform.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine how that then sort of computes

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Speaker 1: into a free speech absolutist position. I think he abandoned

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Speaker 1: that long ago, and Twitter still, you know, has a

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Speaker 1: chance to be what he or whoever is controlling it

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Speaker 1: and maybe even owning it makes of it. But he

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Speaker 1: is not um thus far in his track record stewarding Twitter,

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Speaker 1: he has on acted in a way that seems consistent

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Speaker 1: with some of his own proclamations earlier on about how

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Speaker 1: much he values the freedom of expression in the marketplace

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Speaker 1: of ideas. There's some backlash from lawmakers in the EU.

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Speaker 1: A vice president of the European Commission said the arbitrary

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Speaker 1: suspension of journalists violated the e use Digital Services Act

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Speaker 1: and it's Media Freedom Act. There's a backlash from lawmakers

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Speaker 1: in the EU. The Vice President of the European Commission

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Speaker 1: said his moves violated the e USE Digital Service Act

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Speaker 1: and it's Media Freedom Act. So where he might be

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Speaker 1: safe in the US, he might have problems in the EU.

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Speaker 1: It's a big issue for any global company because you

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Speaker 1: are not necessarily, you know, going to be fine simply

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Speaker 1: by you know, abiding by the jurisdictional rules and regulations

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Speaker 1: of even the largest jurisdiction that you're operating in. Once

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Speaker 1: you're operating across jurisdiction, you have a senti many masters

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Speaker 1: to figure out and attend to. And with the EU,

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Speaker 1: they've long had a much more aggressive position on the

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Speaker 1: social media content, the right to be forgotten and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just not surprising that the EU regulators

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Speaker 1: are going to be a tougher sell than US regulators,

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Speaker 1: you know, on that score as well. It's probably worth

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Speaker 1: noting that Senator Warren herself has come out of the

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Speaker 1: woodwork to tick the tires not on musk stewardship of Twitter,

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Speaker 1: but on whether he's breaching his duties to Tesla and

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Speaker 1: Testlas shareholders. Now that's kind of an interesting position for

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Speaker 1: Senator Warren, who's you know, much more of a kind

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Speaker 1: of a stakeholder identified commentator, to be sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: worried about test La shareholders. But on some level it

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Speaker 1: speaks to the complexity of the situation that he's in.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you are so heavily connected to two

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Speaker 1: companies that are not in the same industry that maybe

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Speaker 1: in some cases working across purposes, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: hard to stay out of regulators sites. And so the

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Speaker 1: European regulators seemed to have a lot more to say

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Speaker 1: about decisions made and not made at Twitter. Maybe that

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Speaker 1: that US regulators, by the same token, are are going

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Speaker 1: to increasingly come down harder on how Mr Musk is

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Speaker 1: affecting that the running and the outcomes at Tesla. Well,

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Speaker 1: the FTC has apparently expanded its investigation into security concerns

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Speaker 1: at Twitter. This was an investigation and a consent decree

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Speaker 1: to pre existed his his purchase of the company, and

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Speaker 1: uh and Twitter, you know very much, you know, was

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Speaker 1: was under ongoing obligations and is under ongoing obligations to

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Speaker 1: comply with that consent decree. And and FTC has authority

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Speaker 1: and in many ways a duty to ensure that that

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Speaker 1: compliance is ongoing. One of the first moves that Mr

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Speaker 1: Musk made once he took control of Twitter in late

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Speaker 1: October was to lay off, you know, a substantial portion

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Speaker 1: of the staff, many of whom were responsible from ensuring

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Speaker 1: that compliance was unfolding in a reasonable way with this

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Speaker 1: FTC consent decree. So you know, there again, it's in

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Speaker 1: a it's another situation where it's proven quite difficult for

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Speaker 1: Mr Musk to make managerial moves which he you know,

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Speaker 1: seems to have a proclivity to make by shooting from

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Speaker 1: the hip and not to arouse lawmakers and regulators, uh

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Speaker 1: suspicions and criticism. And you know, I wouldn't expect this

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Speaker 1: to abate anytime soon. Uh. You know, the FTC has

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Speaker 1: is extremely active these days in a bunch of different realms,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in many respects Mr Musk has has

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Speaker 1: kind of made their job a little easier. Are in

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Speaker 1: some of his more controversial actions protected to a large

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Speaker 1: degree because Twitter is a private company. Now not necessarily

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Speaker 1: when a company the private company, that means that one

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Speaker 1: area of law securities law dealing with the rights of

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Speaker 1: public shareholders is at least in part not going to apply.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that you get a hall path

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Speaker 1: on every other regulatory constraint that faces companies, and those

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Speaker 1: include content restrictions. Those also include employment restrictions. And so

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Speaker 1: when when you think about the various lenses that that

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Speaker 1: Mr must finds himself under from regulators, they tend, at

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Speaker 1: least with respect to what he's doing at Twitter, they

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Speaker 1: tend not to be securities regulators as much as former

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Speaker 1: employee or you know, FTC regulators that are really about

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Speaker 1: not protecting shareholders but protecting users and customers. Simply being

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Speaker 1: a privately held company does not get you out of

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Speaker 1: the jurisdictional scope of the FTC or any other regulator

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Speaker 1: whose purpose is not to regulate your relationship with your

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Speaker 1: public shareholds. So yes, the sec doesn't play as larger

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Speaker 1: or all here, but just about every other regulator in

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Speaker 1: the United States and Europe is going to continue to

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Speaker 1: play a role, just like they did before Twitter went private.

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Speaker 1: Instead of asking you what he did wrong, I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you what do you think he has done

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Speaker 1: right since he owned Twitter. Well, a couple of things

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Speaker 1: that I think are probably worth noting First of all,

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Speaker 1: it was clear that once he took hold of Twitter,

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Speaker 1: he was taking hold of a company whose historical revenue

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Speaker 1: patterns simply did not match up with what was going

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Speaker 1: to be required to service the debt. And so, you know,

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Speaker 1: some people criticize Mr Muskin. Look, I've been one of

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Speaker 1: them for, you know, in some respects taking you know,

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Speaker 1: fairly extreme and and you know, sort of bold and

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Speaker 1: quite risky tactics when he was making decisions, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes rolling them back on some level. I

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Speaker 1: don't think you can really avoid that simply because you know,

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Speaker 1: a company that really needs to pivot um may have

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Speaker 1: to pivot using you know, a relatively bold and not

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Speaker 1: fully tried out strategy. So I don't really fault Mr

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Speaker 1: Musk necessarily for the you know, idea that he's trying

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Speaker 1: on a whole bunch of new approaches and policies that

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Speaker 1: haven't been tried before. I do fault him a little

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Speaker 1: bit for not vetting that a little bit more. They

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Speaker 1: seem to be kind of almost management by fever dream

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Speaker 1: rather than even having a group of people to sort

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Speaker 1: of bounce these ideas off, even if it's in a

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Speaker 1: relatively short order. But It doesn't surprise me that anyone

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Speaker 1: who's you know, you know, basically trying to keep a

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Speaker 1: company afloat that's got a fairly significant debtload isn't going

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Speaker 1: to be you know, thinking about different, possibly quite major

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Speaker 1: strategy changes that they may undertake. You know, there's probably

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Speaker 1: some back room um jockeying right now going on that

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Speaker 1: we're not aware of, But I would not be surprised

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Speaker 1: at all if Mr Musk isn't negotiating with some of

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Speaker 1: the banks that holds at least certain parts of the

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Speaker 1: debt that is going to have to start paying off

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Speaker 1: interest in the coming months. That has been a particularly

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Speaker 1: difficult thing for the banks to sell on to outside investors.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of those banks have just kept that

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Speaker 1: debt on their own books. And usually the way this

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Speaker 1: works is they try to find a syndicate of investors

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Speaker 1: who are willing to buy the debt from them, and

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Speaker 1: there don't seem to be too many takers at least

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Speaker 1: anywhere close to you know, hundred cents on the dollar

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Speaker 1: in terms of those obligations. That actually, in some ways

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Speaker 1: may create an opportunity for Mr Musk to approach the

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Speaker 1: banks and say, well, why don't you let me personally

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Speaker 1: buy back this debt. But I'm not going to buy

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Speaker 1: it back at a hundred cents on the dollar either,

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Speaker 1: But I'll give you, you know, a price thats competitive

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Speaker 1: relative to what you can get from someone else. And

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Speaker 1: there's almost a sense in which, if that is what's happening,

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Speaker 1: then some of the behavior that Mr Musk is engaged

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Speaker 1: in right now that I think if I were a

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Speaker 1: bank that had lent money to to Twitter, it may

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Speaker 1: be very very nervous. Well, that also might make my

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Speaker 1: price come down when I when I am bargaining with

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Speaker 1: him to try to figure out how much I'm willing

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Speaker 1: to basically sell back that debt to him, you know,

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Speaker 1: would it be sixty cents on the dollar fifty eight

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Speaker 1: cents on the dollars? So there may well be a

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Speaker 1: few chapters yet that we have to have to see.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is probably worth noting

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Speaker 1: is that, notwithstanding the fact that Twitter has, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's clearly still the most dominant platform out there.

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Speaker 1: And you know, even as as Mr Musk has kind

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Speaker 1: of engaged in, you know, what seems to be pretty

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Speaker 1: erratic behavior, a lot of people have claimed quite publicly

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Speaker 1: they're leaving Twitter, and and you know, you sort of

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Speaker 1: see him wander back a little bit later on because

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Speaker 1: it's still one of the more lively platforms out there.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: he is trying to do is some of these other

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Speaker 1: competitors that have emerged in the last few years for

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Speaker 1: more conservative posters are also you know, not necessarily having

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Speaker 1: a feeding frenzy of success, the parlors and the truth socials.

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Speaker 1: I think he, you know, is trying to move those

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Speaker 1: users back onto Twitter, and I think there's some evidence

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Speaker 1: that he's been successful in doing that. So there is

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Speaker 1: a sense in which the size of the network on

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Speaker 1: Twitter has actually grown a little bit. Their advertising revenues

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Speaker 1: haven't haven't reflected that they haven't been very successful at

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Speaker 1: monetizing that growth, but at least they have sort of maintained,

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Speaker 1: if not slightly shored up their position as a you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of a central hub of social networking. It remains

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Speaker 1: to be seen whether that can be monetized in any

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Speaker 1: successful way. A lot of advertisers have gotten nervous about that,

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Speaker 1: simply because they're now quite worried that their own advertisements

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Speaker 1: are going to be put up next to you know,

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Speaker 1: content that would have been acted with the prior content

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Speaker 1: moderation policies, but now it's sort of left out there

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Speaker 1: and can be fairly volatile content. So there may still

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Speaker 1: be a lot more squeamishness by advertisers, but at the

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Speaker 1: very least I think they know that they are, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing a user base that that appears to remain robot.

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Speaker 1: Mr Musk's own notoriety might well have played partly a

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Speaker 1: role in that as well. Uh, you know, notwithstanding the

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Speaker 1: fact that um, you know, he used to be behaving

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Speaker 1: in a really erratic way. There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that still like to tweet about one main topic,

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Speaker 1: which is Mr Musk, and to that point, about content

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Speaker 1: that advertisers may not want their advertisements next to. The

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Speaker 1: New York Times analyze tweets from more than a thousand

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Speaker 1: users whose accounts were recently reinstated, and many of the

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Speaker 1: users are posting about topics that got them barred in

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Speaker 1: the first place, COVID skepticism, election denialism, and Q and on.

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Speaker 1: So is that going to hurt the platform? It may

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Speaker 1: well hurt the platform if it's the key goal here

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Speaker 1: is to try to monetize the user base at Twitter. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, advertisers have long been the main source of

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Speaker 1: revenue there, and to the extent that they are going

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Speaker 1: to continue to be the main source of revenue there,

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Speaker 1: I think you have to, you know, put yourself in

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Speaker 1: the shoes of an advertiser who is who is you know,

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Speaker 1: understandably quite squeamish about whether somehow their product is being

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Speaker 1: linked to salacious content that they had no idea it

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Speaker 1: would be linked to. And the odds are you know,

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Speaker 1: somewhat greater once those posters are back on Twitter. Now

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Speaker 1: they have their own following, So possibly for some advertisers,

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Speaker 1: Uh that's a plot. But the numbers that I've seen

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Speaker 1: coming out of Twitter, the ones that have leaked out,

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Speaker 1: sort of suggests that advertisers are quite nervous about this move.

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Speaker 1: And so if advertisers are gonna sit on the sidelines

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Speaker 1: because of the relaxation of at least this type of

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Speaker 1: content moderation, how do they make up for this in

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Speaker 1: other ways? And you know that you know, Twitter itself

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Speaker 1: is you know, now trying to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 1: how to slice, dice and julian every version of a

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Speaker 1: verified user that you can pay for that um is

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Speaker 1: within the realm of imagination. You know. How much that

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Speaker 1: captures people's imaginations I think remains to be seen. I

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Speaker 1: think there are a lot of folks for whom the

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Speaker 1: the idea of you know, paying for a blue check

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Speaker 1: or a green check or a great check or whatever

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Speaker 1: color of the check is is it never was the

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Speaker 1: real reason to you know, you know, become a you know,

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Speaker 1: a verified user on Twitter and just not gonna send

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Speaker 1: the same message that it did before. So I have

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Speaker 1: some you know, I have some concerns that as Twitter

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Speaker 1: loses a lot of advertising revenue, it's gonna have a

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Speaker 1: hard time making it up with other services. Now it's

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Speaker 1: going to be throwing a few haymakers to try to

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Speaker 1: become kind of the central media hub of everything that

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Speaker 1: everyone does, making a marketplace, make it a chat tool,

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Speaker 1: and and so forth. And it's got some of that

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Speaker 1: functionality now, though it hasn't really sort of become dominant

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Speaker 1: in a lot of those other areas, and it still

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Speaker 1: remains to be seen whether that's going to happen. But

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Speaker 1: in the absence of being able to substantially amp up

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Speaker 1: advertising dollars, that money's got to come from somewhere, and

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Speaker 1: right now, I think you know what we're seeing, and

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of on a weekly basis is you know,

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Speaker 1: somewhat of a careening set of strategies attempting to figure

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Speaker 1: out where he can get some traction to actually increase

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Speaker 1: revenue streams to the company. Thanks so much for being

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Speaker 1: on the show. Eric. That's Professor Eric Talley of Columbia

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Speaker 1: Law School. One who makes you larger and one who

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Speaker 1: makes you small and mother, don't do anything. Many people

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Speaker 1: associating magic mushrooms with the psychedelic sixties, with hippies and

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Speaker 1: rock stars following mystics on the fringes and experimenting. But

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Speaker 1: it's a whole different story today as psychedelic drugs are

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Speaker 1: being accepted by many in the mainstream. How mainstream. The

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Speaker 1: powerhouse lawyer in the paramount series The Good Fight, played

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Speaker 1: by Christine Baranski, went through a course of treatment with

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Speaker 1: psilocybin in the last season. And what are your services?

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Speaker 1: Dr Bettencourt? Is this like ketamine pt one? To wait?

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Speaker 1: It's less powerful. You come in here twice a week.

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00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: We offer the option of an ivy, a capsule or spray.

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Speaker 1: You lie down in the other room. You were an imask,

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Speaker 1: you listen to music of your choosing to focus internally,

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Speaker 1: and you have a ninety minute experience. What does that

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Speaker 1: mean experience? Well, some people call it a trip, others

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Speaker 1: awaking dream. Oregon became the first state to legalize psilocybin,

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Speaker 1: the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, two years ago, and

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Speaker 1: in November, voters in Colorado passed a similar ballot initiative.

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Speaker 1: Decriminalization bills have been introduced in several states for consideration,

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Speaker 1: while others are studying the drug for medical use. However,

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Speaker 1: the use, sail and possession of psilocymon in the United

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Speaker 1: States is still illegal under federal law. Joining me is

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Speaker 1: healthcare policy expert an attorney Harry Nelson of Nelson Hardeman.

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Speaker 1: What psychedelic drugs are being considered for legalization magic mushrooms

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Speaker 1: lsd M, d M A. Well, so there's like a

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Speaker 1: kind of a sequence that we're in. The only psychedelic

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Speaker 1: drugs that is currently a legally prescribable controlled substance is ketamine,

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Speaker 1: which is why there's been such an explosion of kenemine clinics,

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Speaker 1: and kenemine has been so popular. But then I would say,

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Speaker 1: after ketamine of the psychedelics true like plant based psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: because ketamine is synthetic um, you know, psilocybe and psilocybe

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Speaker 1: and is clearly out in front as the one that

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Speaker 1: has the most research being done, the most pressure for decriminalization.

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Speaker 1: And then behind it, I think, you know, you have

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Speaker 1: a whole series of things like um ayahuasca and I

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Speaker 1: be gain other plant based psychedelics, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: sort of picking up the rear and probably the last

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Speaker 1: to be to be criminalized are going to be the

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Speaker 1: synthetics like the b M T S and LSC. But

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Speaker 1: I think we're heading towards decriminalization for all of it

431
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: over the next ten plus years. I know that some

432
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: veterans organizations even finance trips overseas to treat PTSD with psilocybin.

433
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: How do these drugs work. I'm not a scientist, I'm

434
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: just a lawyer who worked closely with them. I mean

435
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: they all have like intense, uh you know, neurological experiences

436
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: that give people it's almost an out of body feeling

437
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: in different cases, and it's a whole series of physical

438
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: experiences people describe, you know, whole ranges of going from

439
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: complete surrendy of of an ability to you know, to

440
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: be outside their own bodies and be perceiving their surroundings

441
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: and beyond and in all kinds of intense ways, and

442
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: people have very very different reactions to them, right and

443
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: sometimes incredibly transcendent, sometimes scary, which is why there's so

444
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: much emphasis on these being a guided experience where people

445
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: are sort of being watched to make sure that that

446
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: they don't get into a place of dissociation or where

447
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: they could potentially hurt themselves. But there are still studies

448
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: being done to determine how effective and safe they are

449
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: and what they can be used to treat. I mean,

450
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: for for decades, the d e A basically blocked research

451
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: clinical research, and you had very very few studies going on.

452
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: There were a handful I had clients fifteen plus years

453
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: ago that we're doing studies on, you know, p PTSD

454
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: being treated with psilocybin, on using ecstasy, you know m

455
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: b m A. Also likewise, a lot of studies with veterans.

456
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: There was a small stream of studies that were getting

457
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: approval from td A. As you mentioned, there were a

458
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: lot of people, but there's an underground movement of people

459
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: taking these drugs in uh, you know, in ear in

460
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: setting secluded settings privately, or going out of the country

461
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: to do so in places where they are legal or decriminalized,

462
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so the research is definitely accelerating, and

463
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 1: now we have mainstream, major research institutions across the country

464
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: who are which are engaging in studies and at least

465
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: anecdotally from the progress that I'm hearing from researchers who

466
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: we are working with, just really unbelievable results with things

467
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: like major depression where there was a resistance to treatment

468
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: through ordinary means, that and PTSD and a whole range

469
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: of conditions where these really do appear to be a

470
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: breakthrough for many people. In Oregon became the first state

471
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: to legalize philoslibin on a protracted timeline, but the regulations

472
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: for its distributions still haven't been worked out by state

473
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: of fish tolls, and unlike cannabis, psilocybin can't be used

474
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: at home, it has to be administered at licensed service

475
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 1: centers under the direction of trained facilitators. Is that the

476
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: model that other states are going to use, well, so right,

477
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: so Colorado looks like it's going to be the second

478
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: state and to follow kind of an Oregon model, right,

479
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: so at least and if they're very strange, come I

480
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: In my view, it's a very strange model that, um,

481
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: we're developing where you know, we're sort of as we

482
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: did with cannabis, we're having this experiment of state by

483
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: state different rules and at least not home used for philocybin,

484
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: at least in these early states. Personally, I think it's

485
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: a shame that we can't get our federal agencies to

486
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: move because I think that, you know, what we're doing

487
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: is we're really sort of carving out a whole new

488
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: pathway of how these drugs are going to be used

489
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: when we have a very established system, and all we

490
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: really need to do is be criminal as them, give

491
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: them a prescribable status, and allow you know, physicians to

492
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: prescribe them appropriately and manage them carefully as we do

493
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: all the other kinds of control substances where we think

494
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: there's a risk of danger or abuse. Seems to be crazy,

495
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: but at the moment, these drugs are not being addressed federally,

496
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: so therefore doctors can't write prescriptions, and you have states

497
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: coming up with their own schemes, and while I think

498
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: Oregon deserves credit at first seeing creative. I think we

499
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: have a tried in true way to let patients, you know,

500
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: use medications in appropriate safe settings, including at home with

501
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: physician supervision, is illegal at the federal level. Correct. Other

502
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: than ketamine, all of the psychedelics are currently Schedule one

503
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: under the Control Substances Act, which means that they are

504
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: deemed legally to have no medicinal use and therefore are

505
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: illegal UH and it is a crime to possess them,

506
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: distribute them, and doctors can't have anything to do with

507
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: them or they will lose the risks losing their d

508
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: e A UH licenses essentially a medical licenses and worse

509
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: r criminal risks. So then how does it work when

510
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: let's say you go to Oregon if it's illegal federally

511
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: but the state legalized it. I mean, how does that work? So? Right, So,

512
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: what we're doing, effectively, what we're going is doing, and

513
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: what it looks like the other states are going to

514
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: do because we're getting no federal movement here, is to

515
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: treat this again very much like they did cannabis and

516
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: create a sourcing supply because we had cannaba's dispensaries we're

517
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: going to have these clinics that are going to be

518
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: allowed to um receive you know, the plant based psychedelics

519
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: that starting the philocybin, you know, on a regulated basis.

520
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: And then there will be people who, again not not

521
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: positions or mental health professionals necessarily, but a whole new

522
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: class of essentially state licensed guide who will be trained

523
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: in how to administer and manage and monitor people we're

524
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: taking the philocybin. So it's like it's gonna be very

525
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: much a repeat of cannabis, except the idea of like

526
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: a lounge where people have to stay on site and

527
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: in jest is just kind of an additional wrinkle here.

528
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: So I mean, technically the d e A could arrest

529
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: someone who has this even in a state where it's legal.

530
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: It's true that in theory the d A could. We

531
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: saw by the way, you know, California was the first

532
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: state to be criminalized cannabis in the nineties, and we

533
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: saw that it took several years before the d e

534
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: A stopped rating Canada's censories and club but two thousand

535
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: and twelves Department of Justice issued a memo called the

536
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: Cole Memorandum. And again this is only cannabis right now,

537
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: but I'm predicting that it will be the identical stories

538
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: for psychedelics because that government has taken the position that

539
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: it has better things to do with three sources, and

540
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: as long as people are operating carefully within state legal framework,

541
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: it will not interfere. And I think that rule has

542
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: been successful. There was a question at the beginning of

543
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: Trump administration whether Attorney General Sessions at the time would

544
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: disrupt it, and we saw very quickly that there was,

545
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: you know, no support on either side of the political

546
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: aisle to go back to the old days. The d

547
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: E a interfering with state law, and so I think

548
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: it's pretty safe to say that as long as people

549
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: are operating in states that decriminalize this will be safe.

550
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: You know, within the parameters that are set in that state,

551
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: there's going to be a ban on interstate traffic. I

552
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: think very parallel to cannabis on a bunch of safety

553
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: issues and trying to keep organized crime out of it.

554
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: You know, it'll be safe for people to follow state

555
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: laws as these states secriminalized. So California had an earlier bill.

556
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: It was opposed by law enforcement, including the California DA's Association,

557
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: that said, hallucinations can be dangerous to users and bystanders alike,

558
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: and it's not clear that the benefit of legalizing these

559
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: drugs outweighs the cost to the common welfare. Well, look,

560
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: it's it's no surprise, um that law enforcement is concerned

561
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: about this. Candidly, I think when we look at the

562
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: Cannaba's example that's played out over the last fifteen years,

563
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: we we have to do there's good reasons to say

564
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of dangerous and their effects right,

565
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: including what it means for motorists and like for people

566
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: on the road, and the extent to which there's a

567
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: risk that crime organizations can be part of this. And

568
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: so I I think it was it's understandable. Personally, I'm

569
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm an advocate for opening up more therapeutics that will

570
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: help more people. Right that we have serious mental health

571
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: issues in the country and this is an incredibly promising therapy.

572
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think law enforcement is

573
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: rightly worried that it be done in the right way

574
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: and in the safe way. I don't think that we

575
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: should let those concerned stifle access, but we should be

576
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: careful to like look for the lessons that we can

577
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: learn from where things went awry, you know, And there's this,

578
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: there's this, there's this underlying tension between a movement of

579
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: people who are just trying to get recreational use, which

580
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: has one set of arguments to make about it, and

581
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: medical use. And I think that if we aren't careful,

582
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: we can almost um make the medical uses more challenging

583
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: because of problems that are so stated with recreational youth.

584
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: I think it's totally understandable that law enforcement and other

585
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: groups are going to be, you know, throwing up concerns

586
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: and urging a ghost low approach, and frankly, I think

587
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: they've been a little bit more organized in the early

588
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: political discussions and then the advocacy community for decriminalization and

589
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: UH again, a lot of different stakeholders in this conversation,

590
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: and it's complicated. So I think we've had a few

591
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: California efforts sales, although it looks like the current one

592
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: has promising level attraction and does seem to be, at

593
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: least for now, on a good footing to UH to enactment.

594
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: Do you think the problem is the stigma associated with hallucinogenics,

595
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, Timothy Leary, the bad trips and and all that. Certainly,

596
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: I think there's some of that, although I do think,

597
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, my my senses that public attitudes and some

598
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: in stigma really shifted dramatically with regard to cannabis, and

599
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: I think we're in a different era where it's not

600
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: quite as where there's generally public support for more or access,

601
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: you know. I think at the same time, on a

602
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: community level, people are worried about what's going to look like,

603
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, safety issues and communities, and so I think

604
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 1: a lot of the concerns are gonna be a lot

605
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: more practical to make sure that it rolls out in

606
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: a way that um, that people can feel good about.

607
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: And you know, that has a more again, much more

608
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: of a healthcare therapeutic framework around it as opposed to

609
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: just being you know, another form of vice that for example,

610
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: parents have to worry about kids getting into. Yeah, I

611
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: think that's where the real issues are going to be.

612
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: Tell us about the California Bill and where it stands now,

613
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: at least in the last two lead places essions. There's

614
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: been uh previous stills that ran into opposition, but this

615
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: one was reintroduced by a San Francisco state senator Scott

616
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: Weener in the late summer, and the idea this one

617
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: is focused on only plant based hallucinogen and so that

618
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: would be like philocybin and you know, I begain but

619
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: it would basically it would create a research institute to

620
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: study them and also UM create a framework for for

621
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: individuals to receive direct amounts to them from the centuries.

622
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: So it's again very very similar in my mind too,

623
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: a cannabis model UM, hopefully with some lessons learned to

624
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: be a little bit more specific than some of the

625
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: early directors in California. That's it's sort of a little

626
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: different than oregons in terms of dissensation the individuals anyway,

627
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: So that's where we are right now. As far as marijuana,

628
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: how long before you think it will become legal at

629
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: the federal level. It's a dangerous question. I've I've been

630
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: asked to write white papers on this subject for years,

631
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: and I've gotten it wrong so many times. I think

632
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: the view that I hear most commonly is that we

633
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: are probably in the next decade, and likely within the

634
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: next five years, we will have a critical mass of

635
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: legislators on both sides of the aisle who will support

636
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: a change in federal status for cannabis. So I do

637
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: think that we will see it. The problem is that

638
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: the politics are so messy in our existing political dysfunction.

639
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: So for example, when people thought that President Obama, you know,

640
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: after he was really stuffed the d A from rating

641
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: back in two thousand nine, and that he might go further,

642
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: you know, it became clear that as midterm elections approach,

643
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: he needed to you know, get some law and order

644
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: support from law enforcement, and so that calculus came in,

645
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: and I think, unfortunately, uh, it's too much of a

646
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: political football to be certain, but I do think that

647
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: we are likely five to ten years away from a

648
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: formal change, you know, based on the on the critical

649
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: mass of states that have already legalized it, and just

650
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: just to clean up some of the messiness of state

651
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: by states policies that allowed for a lot of bad

652
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: behavior to flip between the tracts. Any final thoughts on

653
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: the road ahead for a legalization of psychedelics, I think

654
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: this is really exciting. I think that to anybody who's

655
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: skeptical out there, I think there's the data is just

656
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: really it's worth reading some of the literature about the

657
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: breakthrough that people are having to me. You know, I

658
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: think we've lived in an arrow when that's s R. I,

659
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, pharmaceuticals like Prozac and zola. Really we're, you know,

660
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: thirty plus years ago. We're a game changer in UM,

661
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: creating new options for depression and other mental health challenges.

662
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: And I think that we are going to be living

663
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: through the same kind of a wave. And so I

664
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: would encourage people to think about this as really a

665
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: new era and we're really in the very very beginning,

666
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: but we're gonna look back in thirty years at a

667
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: transformed landscape for options for people who are struggling with

668
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: mental health issues. Thank to Psychedelogys. Thanks so much, Harry.

669
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: That's Harry Nelson of Nelson Hardeman. And that's it for

670
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can

671
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast.

672
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at

673
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, and

674
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every week night.

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00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: Attend the m Wall Street time. I'm June Grosso and

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00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: you're listening to Bloomberg m