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Speaker 1: Did you see Chet Hanks on Z Way, Yes, unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't understand why anyone would want

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Speaker 2: to make a fool out of themselves like that.

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Speaker 1: It's just embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: And I am a huge fan of Thomas Jeffrey Hanks,

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Speaker 2: and I cannot believe that this is the spawn of

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Speaker 2: an American treasure. So Chet Hanks is out there doing

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Speaker 2: patois and he thinks it.

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Speaker 1: What he thinks is patois.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And he said he thinks he put it on

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Speaker 2: the map. That's colonizer language. You can't put something on

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Speaker 2: the map that was already on.

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Speaker 1: The map map.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think it really makes me think

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Speaker 2: about people laying claim to other people's language and culture

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Speaker 2: and the way they speak. We see this with people saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is TikTok talk and I'm like, no, it's not.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not. And it's just really got.

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Speaker 2: Our wheels turning right, And I think it's time we

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Speaker 2: put it under the microscope. I think this is very important.

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Speaker 2: I'm t T and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify.

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Speaker 3: This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,

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Speaker 2: pop culture and a healthy dos of friendship. You know,

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Speaker 2: on the show, we love to talk too much, and

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Speaker 2: this week we're talking all about how much we love

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Speaker 2: to talk and how it influences how we talk.

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Speaker 1: All of it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, from you know, where we were born, from where

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Speaker 2: our parents are from.

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Speaker 1: Everything influences how we talk.

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Speaker 2: And so this week we're talking all about linguistics specifically.

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Speaker 2: We really wanted to know more about how the science

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Speaker 2: of linguistics shows up in our everyday lives and some

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Speaker 2: of the reasons that we speak the way we do.

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Speaker 1: Yes, let's jump right into the recitation. So what do

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Speaker 1: we know? Tt?

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Speaker 2: I think one thing that we know is that language

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Speaker 2: is complex. I mean, when you think about the number

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Speaker 2: of languages in the world and how many languages can

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Speaker 2: appear in like small sections of the world, it's really wild.

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Speaker 2: It's such a big part of our culture and how

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Speaker 2: we move.

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Speaker 1: Through the world.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think we also know that there's so much

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Speaker 2: nuance even in the same words that you might say

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Speaker 2: how you say them. This is reminded me of like

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Speaker 2: a tweet that while where people were saying okay, oh, okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: like it was all the different things like bruh, yeah, bruh,

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Speaker 2: Like you know, the same word all these different ways.

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Speaker 2: So even like intonation and emphasis in different areas can

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Speaker 2: mean so many different things.

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Speaker 1: And what we also.

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Speaker 2: Know is is that language is influenced by everything that

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Speaker 2: is happening around us. So when we were younger, you know,

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Speaker 2: we spoke a little bit differently what you knew hip

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Speaker 2: young whipper snappers are saying these days, we're still trying

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Speaker 2: to catch up. Oh my goodness, t T is one

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Speaker 2: thirty two years old. Even if we take all of

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Speaker 2: those things into account, right, there's still so much more

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Speaker 2: I want to understand, like what does it mean, like

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Speaker 2: when we consider linguistics as a field, Like what's the

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Speaker 2: difference between a dialect and an accent? And is there

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Speaker 2: a such thing as an American accent? Right, you know,

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Speaker 2: like because it's just a melting pot.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point.

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Speaker 2: I want to know the linguistic history in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and I think specifically for us, I want to know

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Speaker 2: some of the roots of black or African American vernacular English,

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Speaker 2: like where we got some of our terminology from. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's reminded me of when my friend from the Midwest

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Speaker 2: recently said, well better lick your caf over and I

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Speaker 2: was like, this is a real cowboys were long line cowboys.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's jump into the dissection. Our guest for

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Speaker 1: today's lab is doctor John Ball.

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Speaker 4: I'm the Margaret Bush Wilson Distinguished University Professor at Washington

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Speaker 4: University in Saint Louis, and I am currently President of

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Speaker 4: the Linguistic Society of America.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Ball has written several books on linguistics and is

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Speaker 2: known for his theory on linguistic profiling, which happens when

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Speaker 2: people discriminate agains others based on the way that they talk.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with some linguistics basics. We act doctor

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Speaker 2: bad to break down what he means by linguistic science.

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Speaker 4: Linguistics is the science that tries to evaluate what all

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Speaker 4: human languages have in common, including sign language, and to

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Speaker 4: evaluate those commoniolies through some shared scientific principles and methodologies.

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Speaker 4: And my own specialty is called socio linguistics, which takes

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Speaker 4: all of this linguistic science and then looks at it

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Speaker 4: in a social realm. It really is a science you

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Speaker 4: can measure and break down all of the elements in language.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So linguistics is the study of languages, and there

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Speaker 2: are thousands of different languages in the world. Many of

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Speaker 2: them are very different from one another, but doctor Boss

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Speaker 2: says they all have certain elements in common.

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Speaker 4: They all have a sound system produced through articulation that

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Speaker 4: divides into me meaningful units of sound, whether it's full

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Speaker 4: words or prefixes or suffixes, and then they have to

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Speaker 4: be strung together in a grammatical sequence to have meaningful leutterances.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bab says that we can see this in English

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Speaker 2: with the prefix un un by itself doesn't mean anything,

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Speaker 2: but when you use it as a prefix, it means

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Speaker 2: not so like unfulfilled means not fulfilled, or unreal means

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Speaker 2: not real. And whether you're a fan of prefixes or not,

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Speaker 2: one thing that we know is that where you grew

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Speaker 2: up in the world can determine how you speak a language.

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Speaker 1: Right, we were just talking about this.

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Speaker 2: I feel like if I'm on the phone with somebody

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Speaker 2: for like thirty seconds, I can figure out, Oh, this

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Speaker 2: person is from the East coast, or they're from the

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Speaker 2: West coast, or they're from the South, like my friend

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Speaker 2: who is Southern, Okay. And sometimes even when I hear

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Speaker 2: Southern folks h depending on what we're talking about. There

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Speaker 2: might be some key words in there, and if I

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Speaker 2: listen long enough, I can maybe narrow down the state.

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Speaker 2: And I feel the same way about folks that are

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Speaker 2: from the area of the country where I'm from. So

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Speaker 2: I'm from Maryland, and so they call the DC, Maryland

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Speaker 2: and Virginia area the DMV. And there's some slang or

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Speaker 2: ways of speaking that people from the DC metro area

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Speaker 2: the way they speak, so I can usually I hear

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Speaker 2: that and I'm like, oh, what's up. I have seen

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Speaker 2: her say that person is from DC, that person is

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Speaker 2: from the neighboring county, Okay, PG County, and then this

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Speaker 2: other person is from Baltimore. Yeah, because Baltimore is not

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Speaker 2: a part of what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: Baltimore is on separate state. I feel like we have

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Speaker 1: different accents.

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Speaker 2: But somebody recently told me that they can't tell the

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Speaker 2: difference between us on the podcast, and so I want

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Speaker 2: you to yes, So I.

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Speaker 1: Really want you to let that sink in. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what. Welcome to the South, you know what, I'll

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Speaker 1: take it as a compliment.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we have very different acts and speak

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Speaker 2: very different dialects at times.

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Speaker 1: But doctor All explain to us the difference between dialect

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Speaker 1: and accent.

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Speaker 4: When someone speaks a dialect of a language, that means

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Speaker 4: that they do so in a way that has unique

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Speaker 4: grammatical properties, and that often intersects with the fact that

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Speaker 4: speakers of different dialects will also have shared accents. But

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Speaker 4: accents are based on your pronunciation.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So some examples of different accents in English are

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Speaker 2: Southern United States, that's your girl, Midwestern New England, and

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Speaker 2: New York.

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Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of other ones too. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Some examples of dialects of English in the United States

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Speaker 2: are Southern again, African American English, and Appalachian English. And

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Speaker 2: within these accents and dialects, there's still even finer kind

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Speaker 2: of differences. So there's variation based on region, generation, socioeconomic status,

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Speaker 2: so many other factors that we can't even name. So

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Speaker 2: let's take a minute for a pole, because tt I

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Speaker 2: know you have a very good ear and you can

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Speaker 2: tell somebody's accent in the United States where they're from.

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Speaker 1: But I wonder if everybody else can too. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's easy for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So check the app right now and tell us

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Speaker 2: which one of these accents. Can you easily distinguish no problem,

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Speaker 2: no trouble, just hands down, I know this person's from

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Speaker 2: the Midwest, hands down, I know they're from the southern US.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Doctor bad told us about the concept of linguistic dexterity,

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Speaker 2: and that's when people have the ability to modify their

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Speaker 2: speech based on their environment.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really great point, tt and I

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Speaker 1: really like the term linguistic dexterity because it feels like

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Speaker 1: it's dignifying the skill that it takes to use language

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Speaker 1: in different ways to connect and communicate with people from

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Speaker 1: different backgrounds.

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Speaker 2: And we see this happening also with Native English speakers

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Speaker 2: depending on their environment.

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Speaker 1: We call this code switching.

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Speaker 2: But doctor Boss, it's technically a little bit of a misnomer.

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Speaker 4: Code switching is a term that's used quite commonly by

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Speaker 4: a lot of Americans. But if you're looking at it

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Speaker 4: from a scientific point of view, what most people mean

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Speaker 4: when they're talking about black people who code switch is

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Speaker 4: in linguistics either called bi dialectalism or style shifting, and

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Speaker 4: that's because you're not changing languages.

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Speaker 3: MM.

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Speaker 1: We talk about style shifting a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Like when we started doing dope labs. That

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Speaker 2: was really important to us to not style shift, yes,

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Speaker 2: and to speak authentically to who we are based off

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Speaker 2: of our life experiences and where.

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Speaker 1: We grew up, right, and to be honest. We've received

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Speaker 1: some pushback.

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Speaker 2: Right, people have said, oh, you should more academic or

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Speaker 2: more scholarly, and I'm like, this is what a scholar

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Speaker 2: sounds like exactly, you know, like, oh, you know, it

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Speaker 2: sound like a vad Well, I have one, so by defaults.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bab helped highlight the difference between the two. Style

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Speaker 2: shifting is happening more along a continuum, whereas code switching

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Speaker 2: is when you have complete switching of languages.

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Speaker 4: And then even with code switching, there are distinctions between

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Speaker 4: something like Spanglish, which is a mixture of Spanish and English,

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Speaker 4: and code switching where part of the sentence might be

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Speaker 4: English and then you flip and then have the other

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Speaker 4: part of the sentence exclusively in Spanish, whereas Spanglish actually

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Speaker 4: kind of combines elements of some English words with Spanish words.

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Speaker 2: Who that is a lot to wrestle, Honestly, it's a lot.

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Speaker 2: And when you think about it, I mean in the

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Speaker 2: linguistic dexterity of it all. What we are able to

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Speaker 2: achieve through language is fascinating, and people are able to

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Speaker 2: do it at the drip of a dime so quickly.

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Speaker 2: It makes me think about people from immigrant communities who

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Speaker 2: speak English as a second or third or even fourth language.

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Speaker 2: They're going to have a lot more linguistic dexterity than

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Speaker 2: someone who was born in the US and raised in

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Speaker 2: an English only household. If you've ever tried to learn

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Speaker 2: a language, you know that the sentence structure changes, how

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Speaker 2: we handle verbs are differently than a lot of other languages,

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Speaker 2: and so it doesn't always overlay perfectly.

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Speaker 1: And so it can be really tough.

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Speaker 2: I think it sounds like a superpower to have this

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Speaker 2: type of linguistic dexterity and the ability to styleship at

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Speaker 2: the drip of a dime. But that's not how folks

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Speaker 2: are treated like in everyday life, and it's just like

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Speaker 2: everything in our society. Racism plays a huge role in

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Speaker 2: how society deems people who are in the linguistic majority

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Speaker 2: versus the minority.

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Speaker 4: You have many well educated speakers of mainstream, dominant forms

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Speaker 4: of American English who have very little linguistic dexterity. But

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Speaker 4: because they speak from a position of linguistic privilege, they

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Speaker 4: are not penalized for their lack of linguistic dexterity. Right,

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Speaker 4: The burden is always upon the group who is not

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Speaker 4: the dominant group. And we could take it international. You

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Speaker 4: can go to France or Germany or England, and the

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Speaker 4: well educated speech of the upper classes is the norm

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Speaker 4: by which everyone else is judged. And then that's true

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Speaker 4: here in the United States except for one wonderful exception,

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Speaker 4: and that's the fact that many very wealthy educated Americans,

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Speaker 4: most of them tend to be white, often speak with

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Speaker 4: different regional dialects. We see this beautifully displayed in Congress

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Speaker 4: and the Senate. You don't see somebody saying to Lindsay Graham, oh,

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Speaker 4: you need to sound more like a TV broadcaster. Right,

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Speaker 4: Lindsey Graham's going to sound like the southern senator he is.

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Speaker 4: And oh, by the way, that's helpful to him in

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Speaker 4: his political context.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know when sometimes people say, oh, there are sometimes terms,

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Speaker 2: there are sometimes accents, those are the hidden signals that, oh,

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Speaker 2: this person is like me. You know, where we get

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Speaker 2: different people associating grouping and social grouping when they hear

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Speaker 2: someone speak. This also makes me think about the linguistic

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Speaker 2: heritage when we talk about the South, right, Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: heritage and what has happened historically and how that's influenced linguistics.

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Speaker 2: And so, you know, we both want to learn more

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Speaker 2: about the linguistic heritage of black people in the United

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Speaker 2: States and understand how history has shaped the words and

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Speaker 2: phrases that show up in African American dialects, specifically in

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Speaker 2: the past and the present.

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Speaker 4: There are unique properties to the linguistic dexterity exhibited by

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Speaker 4: African Americans. And then we need to take into account

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Speaker 4: that at this point in time, not all African Americans

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Speaker 4: are slave descendants, right, So the linguistic legacy that we're

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Speaker 4: speaking of has to do with the fact that slavery

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Speaker 4: created a unique set of linguistic circumstances that are not

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Speaker 4: shared by any other group that came.

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Speaker 2: The Transatlantic slave trade stole people from their lives in Africa,

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Speaker 2: taking away their freedom, family, culture, and languages, and so

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Speaker 2: much more. This experience is unique to the victims of

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Speaker 2: the slave trade.

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Speaker 4: Every immigrant group that's come to the United States had

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Speaker 4: their own volition. In other words, they decided, come on, y'all,

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Speaker 4: we're going to back up. We're moving to America right

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Speaker 4: where it was their decision. Where they were not enslaved,

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Speaker 4: they did so with others who spoke their same language.

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Speaker 4: That's why we have communities where Polish, Italian, German, Korean, Russian, Japanese, Vietnamese.

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Speaker 4: They all came to America intact. So how come no

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Speaker 4: African language made it across. Some people with racist stereotypes

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Speaker 4: would say, well, because well, the black people aren't smart

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Speaker 4: enough to remember their language.

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Speaker 2: No. When African people were captured during the Atlantic slave trade,

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Speaker 2: they were often separated by language to restrict and limit

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Speaker 2: their ability to communicate and to prevent uprisings.

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Speaker 4: One of the very first things they did, even before

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Speaker 4: the Atlantic crossing, was let's divide them up. Who speaks Tweet,

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Speaker 4: who speaks Ebo, separate them And so that created a

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Speaker 4: situation where you've already got dislocation from the mother tongue

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Speaker 4: even before you board the slave ships. You've already snatched

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Speaker 4: somebody from their family. You're about to put them into

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Speaker 4: slavery for the rest of their lives. They're going to

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Speaker 4: be trying to figure out out to escape. Well, if

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Speaker 4: everybody speaks the same language, they're going to be firing

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Speaker 4: pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: This intentional separation and denial of language continued once enslave

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Speaker 2: people arrived in America.

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Speaker 4: Once you get to America and you're put on the

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Speaker 4: auction block, it's illegal to teach you to read and write. Okay,

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Speaker 4: you don't get to go to school. There's no such

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Speaker 4: thing as a public school for slaves. You're out there

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Speaker 4: into plantation. We need you picking cotton. So where do

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Speaker 4: you get exposed to English? You get exposed to English

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Speaker 4: by the white slave over here. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 4: most of them they didn't get here by their own choice.

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Speaker 4: They happened to be, for the most part, indentured servants

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Speaker 4: from Scotland and Ireland, and they would say things like

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Speaker 4: the bucket done be over yonder in their brogue. Well

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Speaker 4: that done be over yonder. You hear black people say

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Speaker 4: all the time, I'll be done. Told you that. That's

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Speaker 4: from the Scots Irish. And the fact that we were

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Speaker 4: denied access to schools for hundreds of years. That linguistic fossilization,

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Speaker 4: which is grammatically productive, is passed from one generation to

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Speaker 4: the next in a very useful way.

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Speaker 1: I really like that phrase.

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Speaker 2: Grammatically productive people understand it and when you think about

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Speaker 2: the words, they make sense.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a break and when we come back we'll

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Speaker 2: get into more of the linguistic nuances of Black American English.

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Speaker 2: We're back, and don't get too sad, but next week

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Speaker 2: we're going to be out of the lab.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry. Don't worry.

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Speaker 2: We've got you covered with one of our favorite labs

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Speaker 2: until we return. Before the break, we talked about the

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Speaker 2: linguistic heritage of black people in the United States and

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Speaker 2: how the legacy of slavery shows up in our speech today.

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Speaker 1: Now that we understand that the slave trade was integral

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Speaker 1: to the way African American dialects formed in resistance to

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Speaker 1: the violence of white supremacy, we want to understand some

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Speaker 1: of the linguistic differences that we hear in these dialects.

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Speaker 4: So African Americans who are familiar with the colloquial vernacular

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Speaker 4: dialect will know well that one of the common words

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Speaker 4: used in ways that are not similar to other dialects

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Speaker 4: of English is the word be as in you know,

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Speaker 4: they be talking right, or she be sick. And what

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Speaker 4: a lot of people don't realize is that doesn't mean

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Speaker 4: the same thing as she is sick. Or sometimes that

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Speaker 4: particular expression where is would be used, the word is

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Speaker 4: doesn't appear. They just say she's sick.

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Speaker 2: Like we learned earlier, different dialects have their own unique grammar,

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Speaker 2: and it's not as simple as swapping out one word

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Speaker 2: for another. The grammar allows for meaning to change, and

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Speaker 2: we see people doing it wrong on the internet all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's not that's not for you. Talk about

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Speaker 1: what you know about.

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Speaker 4: Oh, come on, somebody, So what's the difference between he

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Speaker 4: happy and he'd be happy? He be happy means he's

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Speaker 4: usually happy all the time. It's an habitual state of affairs.

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Speaker 4: He happy, or he's happy, or he is happy could

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Speaker 4: be a momentary state. Unfortunately, because of the history of

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Speaker 4: the country, when people didn't know anything about linguistics and

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Speaker 4: slaves would say things like, you know, i'd be going

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Speaker 4: to the store or we be jumping, they would say, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, they're not educated. They don't understand English properly.

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Speaker 2: And this just goes back to that myth where people

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Speaker 2: think that they can tell how educated someone is based

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Speaker 2: on the way that they talk.

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Speaker 1: The next example is ben.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Ba discusses the research of his colleague, doctor John Rickford,

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Speaker 2: a professor of linguistics at Stanford University.

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Speaker 4: The difference between the emphasis on the word ben as

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Speaker 4: in b e n as in we've been to the movies,

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Speaker 4: and the difference that he pointed out is if you

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Speaker 4: ask someone is your sister married? If you answered, oh,

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00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 4: she'd been married, okay, that means not only is she

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Speaker 4: married now, she's been married a long time. But if

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Speaker 4: you said she'd been married, that means she's no longer married, but.

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Speaker 1: She used to be.

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Speaker 2: In this example, the difference in meaning comes from the

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Speaker 2: tonal difference in the word ben. English is not a

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Speaker 2: tonal language, but some African languages are tonal languages.

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Speaker 4: So the slaves hearing the word ben began to impose

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Speaker 4: a grammatical distinction using tone that was not part of English.

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Speaker 4: And again, because they weren't going to school, it wasn't

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Speaker 4: anybody correcting them.

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Speaker 2: It's so amazing how black people are able to maintain

371
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Speaker 2: that tonal aspect of their native languages in the creation

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Speaker 2: of this new dialect of English. Like one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite words that has a lot of different intonations, I

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Speaker 2: guess or tonalities is all right, like all right, like

375
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Speaker 2: all right, that kind of like all right, we're gonna

376
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Speaker 2: keep messing around, is gonna be a problem, all right,

377
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: all right, I got you.

378
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Speaker 1: Like, it's just so many things. Ah, I feel like okay.

379
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Speaker 2: Too, and bet and baby baby. The next example is

380
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Speaker 2: one that a lot of people have opinions on the

381
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Speaker 2: way we say ask, so ask and how Some folks

382
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Speaker 2: say acts.

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Speaker 1: So, like different pronunciations for the same word yes.

384
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 2: So ask and how some people say, oh, can I

385
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 2: ask you a question? The linguistic term for this is metathesis,

386
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Speaker 2: where you invert to sounds.

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Speaker 4: If you're a parent of a child, when your child

388
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Speaker 4: was growing up, they said pasketti rather than spaghetti. Now

389
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Speaker 4: why would they do that? Well, Technically, having the syllable

390
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Speaker 4: S before a P and then a vowel sound is

391
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Speaker 4: difficult to produce, whereas pasketti has a consonant followed by

392
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 4: a vowel then followed by an S sound. Well, it

393
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Speaker 4: turns out that ask a vowel and then what we

394
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Speaker 4: in linguistics call a sibilant consonant and then a stop

395
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Speaker 4: consonant is more difficult to produce than a vowel followed

396
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Speaker 4: by a stop consonant. So ax versus ask is easier

397
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Speaker 4: to pronounce in terms of just the phonology of it.

398
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Speaker 4: And some people say, oh, well, on't they get confused

399
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Speaker 4: because an ax is a tool, Well, an ax is

400
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 4: also and ask is a verb. So therefore, if I say,

401
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: let me ask you a question, unless you don't speak English,

402
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 4: you're not going to assume that the person has substituted

403
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 4: a noun for a verb. Those two pronunciations live quite compatibly.

404
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 2: Let me tell you something, Hey, I want to go

405
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: all the way back to the fifth grade.

406
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: No, actually it was second grade, missus Schmidt and shot

407
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Speaker 1: to fire.

408
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: And I would always always say asks, Oh, I want

409
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Speaker 2: to ask the question.

410
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: She'd be like, no, I don't want you to ask me.

411
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, that's okliating.

412
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: And just like we talked about exactly like you were

413
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: talking about a now and a verb and you know,

414
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Speaker 2: you know, And so language is a tool to communicate

415
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: how everything, and when folks try and box you in

416
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 2: to only speak it in a certain way, it prevents

417
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 2: that dexter that doctor Ball was talking about. So when

418
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: we're talking about I knew what you were talking about

419
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Speaker 2: nomadic productivity.

420
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Speaker 1: You knew what I was talking about, and you knew

421
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: it made sense. You were just giving me a hard time.

422
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: Doctor Bo's next example is about the linguistics of hip hop.

423
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Speaker 4: Not only do people notice these linguistic differences, you get

424
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 4: some pride taking place. Right, So this slang term fat

425
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 4: comes into existence. Oh that's fat, but it spelled phat

426
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 4: in rap culture. Let's think about that. Did those young

427
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: brothers that came up with that, were they really thinking, oh,

428
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: that's pahat. No, they had taken the English classes that

429
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Speaker 4: showed them that Philip was spelled pH and they're like, oh,

430
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 4: so pH is the F sound okay? Well, if pH

431
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: is f and fat is a slang term and I

432
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 4: spell it with pH, but I pronounced it fat, I'm

433
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 4: reinforcing my linguistic loyalty too much. Culture.

434
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: That's another great one that I like, reinforcing my linguistic

435
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: loyalty to my culture. And when you learn about that

436
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: rich linguistic culture and heritage, it just makes you feel

437
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: even stronger that those phrases and dialects should be preserved

438
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 2: and that we should continue to exercise our linguistic dexterity.

439
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: It also makes me think about.

440
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: Mmm, oh my god when we see non black people

441
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: trying to use phrases or words in a dialect that

442
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 2: they didn't grow up with. And so we see them

443
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: doing this a lot. I see it a lot on

444
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: social media, but they're using it in the wrong way,

445
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: trying to look cool.

446
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: Ooh Chile, Yes, you mean woo child.

447
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: Yes. And we talked about cultural appropriation in black music

448
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 2: in last week's episode. Yes, but we wanted to know

449
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: what doctor Bob thought from a linguistic perspective about the

450
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 2: mainstream consumption and use of African American English and its

451
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: impact on the dialect and meaning of the words.

452
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 4: So as a linguist, one of the things that it's

453
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: important to realize is that all languages constantly undergo change,

454
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 4: and so when people adopt a style of speaking that's

455
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 4: not native to them, you have to ask what's their motivation.

456
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 4: And when I was a child, and we're talking in

457
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, the vast majority of

458
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: times that you would see white's imitating black speech was

459
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 4: in a very overt racist and discriminatory way. That's very

460
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: different than fourteen year old white boys that trying to

461
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 4: sound like Tupac, who they think of as kind of

462
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 4: an urban hero. And they're not coming from a place

463
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 4: of racism when they try to say it.

464
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: But it's still not right. Yeah, it might not be

465
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: coming from a place of racism, but it's still not right.

466
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: And I think it makes me think about On z

467
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: Way's show recently, she talked to Chitt Hanks about him

468
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: saying that he thought he was putting Patois on the map.

469
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: Kind sir, that's how you being generous. Yeah, you're totally oblivious.

470
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: You're not appreciating the rich linguistic heritage here. No, he's

471
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: just doing a caricature of it and for clicks and likes,

472
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: which is not what it's about. And nobody's saying he

473
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: must be dumb because he's not speaking in a certain

474
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: way the way they would if a native Patois speaker

475
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 2: was speaking right. Same thing for the adoption of different

476
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: phrases from Black American English.

477
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, I think those.

478
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: Examples really point to how aspects of black culture and

479
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: speech have become popular and valuable in mainstream media, but

480
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: it's often non black people who are profiting off of

481
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: that culture and history.

482
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: That we created and experienced.

483
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: Doctor Bod told us about a concept he coined called

484
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: econo linguistics, and that's when your linguistic behavior has economic

485
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: realfe events.

486
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 4: From an econo linguistic perspective, the slave descendant dialects have

487
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 4: historically been devalued, but in the contemporary context, the econo

488
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 4: linguistics of the ability to wrap can actually make you

489
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 4: a lot of money. Jay Z is a billionaire. I'm

490
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: old enough that I remember the difference in reaction to

491
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 4: Vanilla ice as opposed to eminem right, and eminem is

492
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 4: seen as being more authentic. Right. He grew up in

493
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 4: Detroit in eight Mile. He knows what to say and

494
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 4: enough about black culture that his adoption of the vernacular

495
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 4: is seen as respectful. But there's a white woman who's

496
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: from Australia who tries to wrap in black dialect.

497
00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: That's Iggy Iggy.

498
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: I think that's what he's talking about. Yes, that is

499
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: what he's talking about.

500
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: It's strange and it's problematic, you know, Iggy Azalia, because why.

501
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: Do you talk like it just doesn't even make sense.

502
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: You would think that she would rap like an Australian

503
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: would rap, but she doesn't how she's rapping like she

504
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: grew up with Trina and mia X and I'm like,

505
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: you don't know naw one of them.

506
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: Okay, oh my goodness.

507
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: But I think that nuance about Eminem and Iggy Azelia

508
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: is really important to recognize. This feels like a little

509
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: bit of the conversation I've seen online about Jack Harlow,

510
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: Like I think a lot of black folks feel like

511
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: if you didn't grow up in these neighborhoods, then you

512
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: don't understand. And sometimes people are overdoing it and it's like,

513
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: are you making fun of us?

514
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: Like, you know, what is it really about?

515
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: But then there are also people that feel like they're

516
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: really respecting the art and the culture and the history.

517
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: So I think about mac Miller, who had a very

518
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: different reception, you know, And so it can just really

519
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: be contentious, and it really depends on how you came up.

520
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: There's so much to talk about when it comes to linguistics,

521
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 2: and we've only talked about us small slice today, but

522
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: before we wrapped up with Doctor Bob, we wanted to

523
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: learn about the linguistics behind sign language.

524
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: The basic thing with sign language is that when a

525
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 4: baby can't hear, their brain still has the capacity to

526
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 4: process language, and if they're fortunate enough to be in

527
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 4: an environment where they're exposed to sign language users, that

528
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 4: developing brain will then begin to process visually what the

529
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 4: developing child processes through their brain auditorially. If you're too young,

530
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: you don't know how to read and write, well, if

531
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: you're a young signer, you don't know how to finger spell,

532
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 4: so finger spelling comes in later. But it's just as complex,

533
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: if not more complex, than speech, and it goes through

534
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: a different modality. So sign language, you know, encoded through

535
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: your eyes, it uses gesture.

536
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: Doctor Boss said is very important for brain development for

537
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: children to start learning a language, regardless of if it's

538
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: sign language or spoken language, and this will help them

539
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: later when they learn to read and write. Doctor Boss

540
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: shared that deaf and hard of hearing people have their

541
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: own experiences with linguistic bias and discrimination.

542
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 4: All of them, regardless of background, are strong proponents of

543
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 4: linguistic human rights. Deaf people get linguistic discrimination right because

544
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 4: they're at McDonald's signing and depending upon how people react

545
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 4: to them, I mean, for heaven's sakes, people used to

546
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 4: say deaf and dumb right, So the stereotype that if

547
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 4: you can't hear, you're less intelligent is very similar to oh,

548
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: if you speak with a slave descendant dialect, you must

549
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 4: not be smart.

550
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: And doctor Ball also revealed a little more history within

551
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: the deaf community, sharing that African Americans tended to be

552
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: isolated from white Americans and develop their own dialect of

553
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: sign language.

554
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 4: There's actually a black dialect of sign language. Essentially. The

555
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: best way that I can describe the differences there is

556
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 4: it's got more soul, it's got more movement. Black signers

557
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 4: are just using a lot more emphasis in their gestures.

558
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 4: There's a lot more body movement.

559
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: That's so amazing to hear. It shows that black folks,

560
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: no matter our circumstance, we persist, We push through and

561
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: have the mental fortitude to make a way for ourselves.

562
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: And I love that.

563
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 4: If you take anything away from this conversation today, one

564
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 4: thing is please appreciate the unique linguistic heritage of slave descendants.

565
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 4: It is different than any of every other immigrant group.

566
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: Please try to accepting of others whose linguistic backgrounds are

567
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 4: different from your own, and that applies to everybody. And

568
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 4: if we can be more accepting, not just that you

569
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 4: tolerate these people, but do you actually accept the fact that,

570
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 4: if you live in the United States, your fellow citizens

571
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: are going to come from very diverse linguistic backgrounds. If

572
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 4: we all do our best to try to understand one another,

573
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 4: that will be progress of a certain kind.

574
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: All right, all right, it is time for one thing?

575
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: Tt what's your one thing this week? My one thing

576
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: this week is a clothing brand that is definitely new

577
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: to me. It's called Kids of Immigrants and it was

578
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: founded by Daniel Buazo and Wayle Dennis and they are

579
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: based in Los Angeles. In the mission statement is Kids

580
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: of Immigrants is a movement to recognize that we are

581
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: all cut from different fabrics, but together we make a whole.

582
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: And it's such an amazing brand. I really love all

583
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: the stuff that they put out. Things sell out very quickly,

584
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: but if you can get your hands on something, it

585
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: is really great. Street where on almost all of their

586
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: items they have this little patch that says, shout out

587
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: to immigrant parents who came here with nothing but gave

588
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: us everything, which I love. You know, my parents are

589
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: both immigrants. Yes, shout out to all the immigrant kids.

590
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: Love it. What's your one thing?

591
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: My one thing is a book this week back on

592
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: my reading cheeks.

593
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I want to hear it. I want to

594
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: hear it. Okay.

595
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: So you know we did this episode before about science denial, Yes,

596
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: and people ask us all the time like, how do

597
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: you help people understand this is the science?

598
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: You know?

599
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: We talked to doctor Barbara Hofer and Gail Sinatra, Yes,

600
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: and they had a book about science denial.

601
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: There's a new book out that's called How Mind's Change.

602
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: It's from David mcgrainey, who hosts the podcast You Are

603
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 2: Not So Smart.

604
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: Okay. I think it feels like the next step.

605
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: So once we figure out what's making people believe certain things,

606
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: how do we get them to change their mind and

607
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: what's the science behind that? So I just got that

608
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: book in the mail and I'm reading it now. So

609
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: that's my one thing this week. I can't wait to

610
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: hear all about it and read it myself. Yes, you know,

611
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to pass it to cats, it to your neighbor.

612
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: All right, that's it for this lab. Did this make

613
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: you think about anything? Did it make you look at

614
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: some of your favorite Internet personalities who are adopting some

615
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: different dialects accents?

616
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: If it did let us know. If it didn't, we

617
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: want to know that too.

618
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 2: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

619
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 2: zero two eight and tell us what you thought about

620
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 2: this lab, and don't forget you can always give us.

621
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: An idea for a lab that you want to hear

622
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: this semester.

623
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: That's two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.

624
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: And don't forget that.

625
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: There is so much more to dig into on our website.

626
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: There'll be a cheap keeper today's lab, additional links and

627
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 2: re sources in the show notes. Plus you can sign

628
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: up for our newsletter check it out at Dope Labs

629
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: podcast dot com. Special thanks to today's guest expert, doctor

630
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 2: John Ba. You can find out more about his work

631
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 2: and his ted talk on our website Dope labspodcast dot com,

632
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: and you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at

633
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: Dope Lab Podcast. TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr

634
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakia at z

635
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: said So. Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from

636
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: Mega Ownmedia Group. Our producers are Jenny radlit Mass and

637
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: Lydia Smith of WaveRunner Studios. Our associate producer from Mega

638
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: Ohmedia is Brianna Garrett.

639
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak, Mixing by Hannis Brown.

640
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

641
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify. Creative producer Miguel Contreras. Special thanks to

642
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: Shirley Ramos, Jess Bison, Jasmine Afifi, camu Elolia, tillcrat Key

643
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: and Brian Marquis, Executive producers from Mega Own Media Group,

644
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: all Right US, T T Show, Dia and Zekiah Wattley