1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Traditionally, the House Intelligence Committee has been a model of 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: bipartisan cooperation, with the chair and the ranking minority member 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: of the committee working together closely, and the committee's work 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: is generally done behind closed doors. But last week, Committee 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Chairman Devon Nunas announced that the intelligence community had incidentally 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: collected conversations involving members of Donald Trump's transition team while 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: it was engaging in surveillance of foreign targets. Nuna has 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: subsequently apologized to the Intelligence Committe's Democratic members for how 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: he disclosed the information about the surveillance, but the incident 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: has raised questions about whether the Intelligence Committee can conduct 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: a thorough, bipartisan investigation into questions about Russian interference in 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: last year's election and possible contacts between the Trump campaign 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: and Russia. Here to talk to us about what's going 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: on with Chairman Nunez and the Intelligence Committee are Andrew Kent, 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: professor at Fordham Law School, and uh Eliza Gutian, co 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Brennan Center. UM, thank you both for being here today. Andrew, 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: this is a somewhat confusing and um seemingly strange situation 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: here where you have the uh, the chairman of the 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: House Intelligence Committee having gone to the White House with 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: information when it's possible the committee is going to be 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: investigating the president. How unusual is this situation in your view? 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: I think it's extremely unusual, and uh, you know, a 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: number of folks on the Republican side, including John McCain, 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: have said as much. Um. Obviously there are close political 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: links between a president and members of his party in 27 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: the Congress. But when the president's own conduct and the 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: conduct of his campaign and close aids to him are 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: the subject of such an incredibly important and sensitive investigation 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: that the House Intelligence Committee is undergoing, Uh, you know, 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: this behavior by by the chairman is really extraordinary and 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: quite inappropriate. Liza, It's still unclear because new Naz has 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: refused to say where he got these documents from their 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: supposedly classified documents. If they are really classified documents and 35 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: he showed them or told the press about them without 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: telling his committee members or anyone else, is that a 37 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: prosecutor prosecutable offense. Well, certainly, Nuns himself and many others 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: on his committee have really made a point of underscoring 39 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: how dangerous it is to leak classified information and have 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: emphasized that people who do leak such information should be prosecuted, 41 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: so if they are to be believed, it absolutely is 42 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: a prosecutable offense. And it does appear that some of 43 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 1: what uh Mr Nunez was saying in his press conferences 44 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: was classified information. Now the president is able to be 45 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: classify information, uh quickly and easily. And there is a 46 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: question in this case about whether there was coordination between 47 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: the White House and and Newness in his announcements. And 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: recently we learned that Noons was actually at the White 49 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: House the day before he gave his press conference using 50 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: some secure compartment and facilities there. That's a place where 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: you go to look at classified information. So you know, 52 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: there's some real questions here about where this information came from. 53 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: And and and frankly, you know, if the president did 54 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: be classified information so he could reveal it, I think 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: that's that's more disturbing than than it is reassuring. Well, Andrew, 56 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: let's say, you know, putting aside this situation, you end 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: up with a where you have an intelligence Committee chairman 58 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: finding out information that might be relevant to an investigation 59 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: or to the White House. Um in some way, you know, 60 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: that's important. What is the appropriate protocol here, what's supposed 61 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: to happen. Well, there's not really a protocol in a 62 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: situation that's as politically charged and abnormal as this, But 63 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we would hope that, you know, 64 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: in any kind of extraordinary circumstance, we fall back on 65 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: the kind of tried and true procedures, and those procedures 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: would be, um, you know, bipartisanship on the committee, uh, 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, letting the Democratic members see it, letting the 68 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: expert staff who um uh you know who served the 69 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: members of that committee be involved and things, and then um, 70 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: if necessary, making a decision you know, at the committee level, 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: to communicate with with executive branch agencies about this and 72 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: ideally to do it uh privately first before you know, 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: going and having a quite confusing news conference first at 74 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: the Capitol and then a second one at the White House, 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: like the chairman did. Lies about a minute here. Noon 76 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: has served as an advisor to Trump's transition team. So 77 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: should he be investigating this at all? Some of the 78 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: people he must know when he may have been involved 79 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 1: in some aspect of this. I mean, that's an excellent question. 80 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that Initially, the fact that he didn't 81 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: serve on the on the Trump transition team or as 82 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: an advisor. I'm not sure that that should disqualify him 83 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: out of hand to be leading an investigation, But if 84 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: you add some of the behavior we've since seen since then, 85 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: and particularly these press conferences, I think that does raise 86 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: some very serious questions about whether he's conducting an impartial 87 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: investigation or whether he's really trying to act to support 88 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, which is not his job as an 89 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: overseer on the committee, let alone as someone who is 90 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: investigating potential misconduct by the administration. Andrew, are we at 91 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: a point now where Senator McCain is right and we 92 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: need to have a Congress really needs to appoint a 93 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: select committee that's independent of the Intelligence Committee to investigate 94 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: the allegations about possible Trump campaign contacts with Russia and 95 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: Russian interference in last year's presidential election. You know, I 96 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: think in theory we are, but I also see no 97 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: indication that it's likely to happen. Uh. You know, neither 98 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: Miss McConnell on the Senate side or Paul Ryan on 99 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: the House side have given any indication that they're interested 100 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: in doing that. Um so, Uh, you know, certainly the 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: Chairman Nuns his actions calling to call into real question, 102 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: you know, his independence from the White House and his 103 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: willingness to aggressively dig into information that might be harmful 104 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: to the White House. But uh, you know, I think 105 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: that's all. That's all we're going to have for the 106 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: time being. Is is is the current investigations in in 107 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: the in the current setting they're taking place, Liza, among 108 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: congressional committees, the two intelligence committees, one in the Senate, 109 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: one in the House. We're established with this unique charge 110 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: that they be bipartisan to the most extent possible. In 111 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: the past, have you seen either of these committees do 112 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: that kind of work? Yes? Actually, I think the Senate 113 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee has been remarkably bipartisan in most things. And 114 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: there's certainly been exceptions to that, but for the most part, 115 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: they tend to work together and to work together quite 116 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: amicably and well, and often share conclusions. And even when 117 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: they don't share conclusions. For example, the Torture Report, the 118 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: report on the CIA's enhanced interrogation program. Uh, many Republicans 119 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: dissented from or did not sign that report, but it 120 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: still did not create sort of the level of animosity 121 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: and infighting that we are seeing right now in the 122 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: House Intelligence Committee. The House Intelligence Committee has traditionally been 123 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: a bit more marked bipartisan differences, but I would say 124 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: that what we're seeing right now um is sort of 125 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: taking it to a new level. Andrew Eli Lake, Bloomberg 126 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: View columnist, spoke with Chairman Nunez recently and he's put 127 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: up a column on Bloomberg View uh saying that you know, 128 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: Nonez has explained that he to Eli Lake that he 129 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: in fact had gone to the White House ground to 130 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: view these documents, and that the documents that he has 131 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: seen were widely shared during the Obama administration. Appears with 132 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: both the White House and among other members of the 133 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: intelligence community, and it sort of raises the specter of 134 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: whether or not it's possible that, in fact, the Obama 135 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: administration was using intelligence to try to keep track of 136 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: the Trump campaign or the Trump transition. Might there really 137 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: be something legitimate here and what Nonez was doing and 138 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: sharing this information with the White House? It's possible, and 139 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: the Lake's article today was certainly a useful piece of 140 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: this puzzle, but it's still quite hard to know exactly 141 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: what's going on, in part because Nunas has said both 142 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: contradictory sort of confusing things. I mean, he said from 143 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: the beginning, and he's reiterated that he believes this was 144 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: lawfully collected intelligence. And he suggested that it occurred under 145 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which means that it was 146 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, though it's a complicated statute, and we can 147 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: generalize to say it means that it was a court 148 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: approve uh to target somebody who is an agent of 149 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: a foreign power. Um. But then, um, you know it's 150 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: reported in the Lake piece that you reference. Uh, Nunez 151 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: is saying that conversations between Trump and his senior advisors 152 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: about the presidential transition, uh, we're somehow picked up. Um. 153 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: And I have a very hard time in my mind 154 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: reconciling how there could have been lawful, lawful communications of 155 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: agents of the of a foreign government being swept up 156 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: that included uh, those kinds of details. It's just it's 157 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: quite confusing, and unfortunately I don't have, you know, I 158 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: don't have a teriffic answer about exactly what's going on here. 159 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: About thirty seconds, um, Liza, one of the Democratic Congressman 160 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: Eric Swalwell on the committee has written for The Guardian 161 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: and slam Nunez, saying he seems to be running his 162 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: own intelligence service, receiving classified information exclusively briefing the president. 163 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: Is this likely? Is this a committee it's likely going 164 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: to be able to work together? Yeah, that's certainly a concern. 165 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: And obviously the ranking member of the committee, autom Shift, 166 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: has also been quite critical of Newness and his behavior. 167 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: In this case, Shift seems to be in essence that 168 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: the member of the committee who is most concerned with 169 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: the actual Russian interference with the election and possible tries 170 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: ties to the Trump campaign that the committee is supposed 171 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: to be investigating. Uh. And at the hearing that took 172 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: place last week, Representative Shift read through a long list 173 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: of the circumstantial evidence that has come up that's been 174 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: quite damning, that appears to, uh, you know, at least 175 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: apply some ties between the Russian interference and the Trump campaign, 176 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: and Liza, we're going to have to leave it there. 177 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: Are thanks to Liza Guardtine of the Brennan Center for 178 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: Justice and Andrew Kent of Fordham University for being with 179 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: us on Bloomberg Law