1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: All Media. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: it Happening Here, which is normally focused on the United 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: States because that's where we all live. However, we do 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: like to cover the rest of the world and the 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: ongoing struggle against the global far right movement. And today 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about a place that we don't 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: cover often on this show, Ireland. And it's not because 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: Ireland doesn't have a problem with the far right, because 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: as our guest today is going to talk to us 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: about it, most certainly does. And so I would like 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: to welcome to the program a great guy, Padre O'Rourke, 13 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: author of Burn Them Out, A History of Fascism and 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: the far right in Ireland. Thank you so much for 15 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: being on the show. 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 3: No problem, delice to be here. Thanks very much, Robert. 17 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, there's this attitude and I think, as 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: you noted in some note use of the long, there's 19 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: a degree to which it's true that Ireland has some 20 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: resistance to the far right that has led to maybe 21 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: it growing slower or taking a little longer to get 22 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: off the ground to the same extent that it has 23 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: in the UK or the US. As a result, of 24 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: kind of the history of Irish Republicanism, but that's not 25 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: comprehensively true across the island, and that that's you know, 26 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: certainly has not stopped it from having some pretty significant problems, 27 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 2: which we're going to talk about today. 28 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, Sadly, as long as fascism has existed, since Mussolini's 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: March on Rome and his political rise, we have had 30 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: fascist groups here of one sort or another. We've had 31 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 3: fascist groups in Ireland that were pro British and politics, 32 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 3: fascist groups in Ireland that were pro Irish or Irish independents. 33 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: You know, obviously we were neutral during World War Two. 34 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: We weren't occupied by Nazi Germany or anything like that. 35 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: We did have one very big fascist group here in 36 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties, the Blue Shirts, who were extremely violent 37 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: and got sixty eight members of parliament elected. They were 38 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: the main political opposition. They were kind of the largest 39 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 3: non governing fascist organization in the world per capita. But 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 3: as you said, Irish republicanism has kind of inoculated us 41 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: against a lot of the far right stuff we'd have 42 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: seen in Britain and Germany and France in the nineties 43 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: because you know, while the conflict was going on in 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 3: the North of Ireland. Basically, if you were an angry 45 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: young man with very strong patriotic feelings who was given 46 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: towards political violence, you would probably end up in the 47 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 3: Provisional IRA and their politics were very left wing and internationalist. 48 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: I mean I remember going into their political wing Shinfein's 49 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 3: bookshop in Dublin in the nineteen nineties and it was 50 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 3: all pictures of you know, yes Er Arafat, and it 51 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 3: was pictures of Nelson Mandela and like the Zapatistas, and 52 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 3: you know, it was very much about Irish independence being 53 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: an anti colonial struggle. You do, of course get like 54 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: on the opposite side of that, on kind of the 55 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: loyalist pro British side. In the North, you did get 56 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: as kind of reaction to that, pro British paramilitaries, the 57 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 3: Ulster Volunteer Force, the UDA, Ulster Defense Association, the Ulster 58 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: Volunteer Force, the UVF. They would have linked up with 59 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: neo Nazi groups like Combat eighteen in England to get guns, 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: to get finances, to get their hands on explosives and 61 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: things which were easier to get in England than in 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 3: the North of Ireland. But really we never had a 63 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 3: party here, either in the north or in the south 64 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: that was as successful as groups like the Front National 65 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 3: in France or the British National Party in England. Both 66 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 3: sadly in recent years, certainly in the last ten years, 67 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: the far right are kind of back. They're alive and kicking, 68 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: and they're taken to the streets. 69 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: And so what do you credit that? I mean, it 70 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: seems like there's a mix of things. First off, you 71 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: suddenly do have people immigrating into Ireland from elsewhere in 72 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: the world in significant numbers for you know, the first 73 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: time in quite a while. And then on the other head, 74 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: it sounds like there's also the kind of as we 75 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: see everywhere, all the conscious exporting of far right figures 76 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: in id is into the country. 77 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, Ireland's greatest export was always people, and you know, 78 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: we a few Irish American communities in you know, Chicago, 79 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: New York, you know, all over Ebi, Irish people in 80 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 3: Australia and Canada and England, all over the continent. So 81 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: in the early you know, twenty tens, we started like 82 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: there had always been a trickle of migration and people 83 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: coming back and forward, like we had some you know 84 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: Vietnamese refugees here. We had you know, historically we had 85 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: Russian Jews coming here and so on, escaping pilgrims in Zaras, Russia. 86 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 3: But really the first time that we had very large 87 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: numbers of people coming was in the twenty teens, and 88 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 3: it was things like the Mediterranean migrant crisis. It was 89 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 3: people fleeing climate change in Africa, the Syrian civil War, 90 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: Teliban in Afghanistan, and more recently, of course Putant's invasion 91 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: of Ukraine and the fire Heights. Had always been these 92 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: tiny little fringe parties and figures. It was a very 93 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: active anti fascist group here called Anti Fascist Action Ireland. 94 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 3: And anytime these groups tried to organize or take to 95 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: the streets, they were challenged and they were run off. 96 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 3: But really what brought them all together Ireland's kind of 97 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: attempt to unite the right was the COVID nineteen pandemic, 98 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: because we had one of the strictest COVID lockdowns in Europe. 99 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 3: You're talking about. Originally you weren't allowed to travel more 100 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 3: than two kilometers from your home. That's one of the 101 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: quarter miles for you Americans, and basically you could go 102 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 3: to the store, but other than that, you couldn't you know, 103 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: you couldn't travel very far. And of course everyone was 104 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 3: locked at home with their with their internet and started 105 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: going down the rabbit hole. And what we saw was 106 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: the anti vaxer COVID conspiracy movement took to the streets 107 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: in Ireland very quickly, and that brought together all of 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: the disparate tiny far right and neo fascist factions, the 109 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: closet neo Nazis, the anti vaxers, the fundamentalist Catholics like 110 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: the Society of Saint Pias, the tenth, the sovereign citizen types, 111 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: the people who were on about five G conspiracies and 112 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 3: chemtrails all got onto the streets, all got active on 113 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 3: the Irish left and the anti fascist side. We kind 114 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 3: of dropped the ball because we were following the healthcare 115 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: advice and the cops were quite happy to ignore the 116 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: far right mobilizing on the street. But there were striking 117 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: workers like Debenhams and Clearies who'd been striking before COVID struck, 118 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,119 Speaker 3: and the cops were going up and moving these trade 119 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 3: unionissan saying, you know, you're breaking the pandemic. So it 120 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 3: wasn't released even Lee and you know, suddenly, for the 121 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: first time during the pandemic, we were starting to see 122 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 3: groups of three four hundred far right in Dublin, which 123 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: doesn't sound like much, but I mean last weekend there 124 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: was a march in Dublin City and they had probably 125 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: around five thousand, maybe up to ten thousand people marching, 126 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: and that's something we haven't seen here since the nineteen thirties. 127 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's such I think an important point. The 128 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: degree to which, because this is a global issue, the 129 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: degree to which everyone else attempting to abide by public 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: safety measures during COVID nineteen strengthened the far right because 131 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: they were out in the streets this kind of organizing 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: equivalent of getting to steal a march on the enemy. 133 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: It makes sense to me that it was because in 134 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: the US that was interrupted at least by the George 135 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: Floyd uprisings. But in Ireland, you know, it seems like 136 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: there was a much more significant period of time where 137 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: these folks were essentially acting and organizing unopposed, and the 138 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: police were, when they chose to act at all, acting 139 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: against folks on the opposite side of things who were 140 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: organizing during COVID. 141 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was let kind of rum belong to the police. 142 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: The cops didn't really start taking action on any of 143 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: this stuff until I would say it was nearly November 144 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three when they had this rally called I 145 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: think it was called to the Doll or maybe slightly 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: earlier than that. In September twenty twenty three. The Doll 147 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: is the Gaeacord for our Parliament, and basically the dregs 148 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: of the COVID movement kind of came together again. You 149 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: had all these tiny far rice and fascist parties popping up, 150 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: and the best thing of about them is they all 151 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: get into furior fights. They all start arguing with each 152 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: other about who's going to be the leader, and they 153 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: haven't united. But they took to the streets in the autumn, 154 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 3: in the fall of twenty twenty three, and there was 155 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: one really violent and disgusting riot outside the outside the 156 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: Parliament where the far right were throwing bottles of your 157 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: line at politicians trying to get in, were shouting racial 158 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: abuse at anybody who wasn't white, who was working in 159 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: the building as a cleaner or a parliamentary assistant or anything. 160 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: Any opposition politicians they could see. They were screaming at 161 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: them in imitation of you guys. And January the sixth 162 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: they had built a mock noose and they were using 163 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: it to hang effigies of politicians, and you also had 164 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: police cops being attacked for the first time by the 165 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: far right. Really, there'd been one or two other incidents, 166 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: but it's only when cops started getting attacked by them 167 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 3: and politicians were being directly their safety was being threatened, 168 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: then the cops start to act, maybe in the last 169 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 3: eighteen months or so, but it was really closing the 170 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: stable door about five years after the violent fire right 171 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: horse had already bolted. 172 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, so I'm kind of thinking here, 173 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: this is part of why you've started to see you know, 174 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: guys like we started this conversation before being recording talking 175 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: about Tucker Carlson coming over to talk to Connor McGregor, 176 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: who's becoming an increasingly large part of this. And I 177 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 2: wonder if it's if it's maybe these these different kind 178 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: of international folks in the international movement sort of sniffing that, 179 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: you know, they're hoping that the cancer has metastasized, so 180 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 2: to speak. I mean, is that kind of what you 181 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: how you see it? 182 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: Well, they definitely have an influence here. I mean the politics, 183 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: the talking points, the buzzwords that the far right use 184 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: in Ireland have all been learned from the likes of 185 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: Alec Jones, have all been learned from watching you know, 186 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 3: crazy stuff on Twitter. And it's all American and British 187 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: farrelight talking points that are being replayed here. Stuff about 188 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: the Clergy Plan, stuff about the Great Replacement and and 189 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: so on. I mean, one hundred years ago was the 190 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 3: protocols of the Elders of Zion, and now they're just 191 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: spinning the same conspiracy, same talking points again. Like for example, 192 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 3: one of the things we had here was we had 193 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: a party called the Irish People's Party and some of 194 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: our campaigners were really fundamentalist Latin mass set of Acantas Catholics, 195 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: and they were going down and protesting about drag queen 196 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: story time at Irish libraries. We don't even have drag 197 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 3: queen story time. These guys have been so inspired by 198 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: what was happening in America and I just went in 199 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: and started taking books off the shelves, you know, and 200 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: anything to do with any LGBT plus team, even basic 201 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 3: sex education guides for kids. Stuff that's pretty mild and 202 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: perfectly happy to give my own my own kids, and 203 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: I'm not the most woke guy, but it's not ripping 204 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: them up. They'd start taking them out in the library, 205 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 3: filming themselves, burning books at home. It was really crazy stuff. 206 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: And at that stage again you did get anti anti 207 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: fascist organizing. But what you kind of get is figures 208 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: like Connor McGregor being amplified by the likes of Elon 209 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 3: Musk being amplified by you know, Tucker Carlson coming over 210 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 3: interviewing him, or Donald Trump of course inviting him to 211 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: the to the White House, I mean the Prime Minister 212 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 3: of Ireland as we'd say, Gail, like the teacher Meehall Martin. 213 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 3: He was invited to the White House on the twelfth 214 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: of March. But the guy that Trump chose to actually 215 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 3: have there on Patrick's Day itself was of course Connor McGregor. 216 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 3: And McGregor has links to I wouldn't say far right figures, 217 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 3: but certainly very populist figures. And McGregor has kind of 218 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 3: started he's become God pilled and he started rambling on 219 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: about you know, rosary beads and the power of Christ 220 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: and all this kind of stuff, and he doesn't strike 221 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: me as a particularly religious man. And now with the 222 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: head of soccer Carlson, you know, and Elon Muskin others, 223 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: he says he's going to run for president, and we 224 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 3: have a presidential election coming up here in six months. 225 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: Did you watch the interview, Robert. 226 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: No, No, I haven't yet. I caught some clips of 227 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: it all on social media. Yeah, but I haven't gotten 228 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: to sit through the whole thing. 229 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: It's wild. Bear's absolutely no resemblance like what Connor puts 230 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 3: across bears no resemblance to what's actually happening in Ireland. 231 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 3: Like he starts ranting about how the police are so corrupt. 232 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 3: Element that's true, but he starts talking about how the 233 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: traffic cor the road cops who give you like speeding 234 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 3: tickets and stuff, they're the most violent and repressive and 235 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 3: all this kind of stuff. And it just so happens 236 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: that Connor McGregor has a string of speeding violations in 237 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 3: his sports cars. And then Tucker Carlson chips in and says, oh, 238 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: my god, you've got these armed cops and they're they're 239 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: repressing the Irish people, but they're letting these immigrants do whatever. 240 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: My dad was a copier for thirty years. My dad 241 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: was on the border in the nineteen seventies with the 242 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: iron ray shooting at him and he didn't even get 243 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: a gun. Her cops aren't armed. But Carlson is just 244 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: trying this stuff out, being educated about it, and he 245 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: says at the very end of the interview, McGregor says, oh, 246 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: there's there's been a government kind of hit job on me. 247 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: They're planning to bring me down. What he's referring to 248 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: is a civil trial now, not a criminal trial. A 249 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: civil trial that Connor McGregor lost when he was brought 250 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: to court for alleged rape and sexual assault and the 251 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 3: jury believed he's he's accuser a woman called a hairdresser 252 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: called Nikita Hand, and Connor McGregor was forced to pay 253 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 3: damages of a quarter of a million euro to her, 254 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 3: plus costs in the Irish High Court, which are about 255 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: one and a half million euro. Now to you or me, 256 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 3: that would be you some of money. To Connor McGregor, 257 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 3: that's nothing. And I have to say, for legal reasons 258 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: he is appealing it. But the reality is that standing 259 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: in the way of any political ambitions, Connor McGregor has, 260 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: and we just had here in the last six hour. 261 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 3: Last year, we had a lot local election for like 262 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 3: local councils, a general election, a European parliamentary election, any 263 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 3: one of those. All he needed to do was put 264 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: up one hundred and fifty quid and he could have stood. 265 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: He will be on the ballot. In fact, under Irish 266 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: electoral law, he could have stood in every single constituency 267 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: in the country and he didn't stand for election. And 268 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: now he's complaining that he's being debarred from the Irish 269 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: presidential race, and he's not. It's just it's an exceptionally 270 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 3: difficult ballot to get on. You can't just stump up 271 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: the money in America and become a third party candidate 272 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: or a writing candidate or whatever. That doesn't work here. 273 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: You need the support of a large number of democratically 274 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 3: elected politicians to get there. So I think McGregor's real 275 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: aim is not to get into the presidency, because really 276 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 3: he can't. He's not even going to be on the ballot. 277 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: But I think he wants to be Ireland's Ireland's answer 278 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 3: to Tommy Robinson. And I suppose if Tommy Robinson is 279 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 3: the answer, what the hell was the question. 280 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll get into that more in a second. 281 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: I do want throw to ads here really quickly, and 282 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: then we'll continue to talk about Connor for a moment 283 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: we're back. So you say he wants to be the 284 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: Irish answer to Tommy Robinson, which is such a like 285 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: aim a higher man like that. It's it's odd to 286 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: me like I had kind of I had kind of 287 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: been worried because we've had so many cases of guys 288 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: in the United States who start out as these absolute 289 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: jokes on the far right and then you just see 290 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: them pick up more and more attention over time, and 291 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: that was kind of my worry with Connor. But but 292 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: you're saying you're kind of concerned more that he's going 293 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: to continue to be like an organizing presence on the 294 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: far right rather than someone who has much of a 295 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: chance of picking up actual like political office. 296 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think with Connor it's it's all about his ego, 297 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: which is probably what you'd expect from an MM star. 298 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: You know, there's going to be an element of you know, 299 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: ego and show voting in kfab and so on. I mean, 300 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: it's interesting and he's interview with Tucker Carlson. He was 301 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: giving out that the Minister of Education, you know, isn't 302 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 3: a teacher, they're unqualified for the job. And the Irish 303 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: government's Minister for Health isn't a doctor. And it's like, well, 304 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 3: what qualifies you to be president? Connor? You're a former 305 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: plumber turned for MMA fighter, you know. 306 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, getting hit in the face. 307 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. And we've we've had ministers of education who were 308 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: teachers and ministers of health who were doctors who happened 309 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: to be totally awful. The reality is like, we have 310 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: a pr system, We've you know, a very democratic and 311 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: fair process, and we have more than a two party 312 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: system here. But I think, like as emerged during the 313 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: during that civil rate trial which McGregor lost, you know, 314 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: he had to admit to his cocaine use during it, 315 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: he has been sending out kind of fevered I would 316 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: imagine cocaine fever trip tweet saying as President of Ireland, 317 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 3: I have the power too, And it's like, man, the 318 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 3: election hasn't even happened yet, he's way ahead of himself. 319 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: He's not going to get in the ballot. He knows 320 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: that he wants to present it. And I mean the 321 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 3: fact that he's even talking about getting in the ballot 322 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: shows he doesn't understand the constitutional system here, which it's 323 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 3: not like Britain. We have a written constitution. It's not 324 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: that complex if you know the basics of the law. 325 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: He's never going to get in the ballot, but he 326 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: wants to present it that he's being denied the opportunity 327 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: to stand and unfortunately, what we have around the country 328 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: is an increasingly violent anti immigrant street movement that whenever 329 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 3: these what we call him here IPASS in International Protection 330 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: Applicant Services, these IPASS or refugee centers. Basically, when these 331 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: are picked as places of accommodation by the government while 332 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 3: these people's applications for refugee status they have to stay 333 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: somewhere while these are being examined, you tend to get 334 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: large protests in towns, villages, cities all over Ireland. Sometimes 335 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: he's turned quite violent. Sometimes there's been more than thirty 336 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: arson attacks on these centers. And I think what Connor 337 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: McGregor ultimately wants is he wants to be able to 338 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: tour the country attending these protests and having everyone queuing 339 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 3: up to take selfies with him and telling him what 340 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 3: a great hero he is, and I think I think 341 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 3: that's he's ultimately yeah, yeah, that makes sense, and he's 342 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: obviously he's going to grift off the back of it. 343 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 3: The guy has money already. But it was so funny 344 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: this multime multi millionaire being interviewed by Tucker Carlson saying 345 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: we're going to start fundraising from my campaign. It's like, 346 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 3: and you have more money than you could ever spend 347 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: on political posters and buyers and adverts, you know. 348 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 2: So it almost sounds like this is like a retirement 349 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: plan for him, right, Like he's he's he's clearly past 350 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: his prime in terms of the getting hit in the 351 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 2: face thing for money, and now he's sort of moving 352 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: on to like grifting off of these far right events 353 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: and probably traveling just ahead of a series of riots, 354 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 2: you know, Like that's that's it seems like what's in 355 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: his future. 356 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean we've had some you know, at 357 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 3: the time of an outbreak of rioting in Dublin anti 358 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 3: imigrant violence which caused twenty million euros worth of damage 359 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 3: and you know, trash the city center in November of 360 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, Connor and I'm not saying he directly 361 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: caused it. But he was tweeting at the same time 362 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 3: Ireland is a war. Yeah, and around the same time 363 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 3: he was tweeting like any property that's been taken over 364 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: by foreigners evaporated. I think really his plan is to 365 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 3: kind of if he can represent himself as a political 366 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 3: martyr figure. He's hoping that it will overshadow the you know, 367 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 3: his loss in the rape case, and he is of 368 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: course appealing that and claiming he has new evidence and everything. 369 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: But I think really that's what it's about. 370 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's talk a little bit about the way 371 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: far right violence has looked in Ireland, like when these 372 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: when these protests have really kicked off, because it seems 373 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: like there's been this kind of fairly significant acceleration in 374 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 2: the last three or four years in terms of it, 375 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: particularly arsynotacks. And one thing that I was kind of 376 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: struck by in your notes was the degree to which like, 377 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: no one's been arrested for any of these yet. 378 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 3: No, what happens. These started around twenty eighteen, so maybe 379 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 3: just before COVID you had one or two of them, 380 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: And my book went to print in December twenty twenty four, 381 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 3: so I stopped counting in December and by then I 382 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 3: had over thirty arson attacks and there hasn't been a 383 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 3: single conviction for any of them. So it's when usually 384 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 3: former hotels that have been closed down with years are 385 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: that the government moves in or some local person moves 386 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 3: in to renovate them and use them as one of 387 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: these centers. They'll just go up and smoke in the 388 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 3: middle of the night. And I mean, we have already 389 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 3: a very significant homeless problem here. I mean there's more 390 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: than ten thousand people homeless in Dublin, both Irish and refugee, 391 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: and I mean that probably sounds small to someone listening 392 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: in a big American city. We thought we had a 393 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: housing crisis when we had two thousand people homeless, and 394 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 3: we got more than ten almost fifteen thousand people homeless now. 395 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 3: And some of these the immigrant protesters have actually burnt 396 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: down homeless accommodation designed for Irish homeless people in the 397 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: mistake and belief that it was going to be used 398 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 3: for refugees. Yeah, so that's their contribution to the housing crisis. 399 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: You've also seen stuff like attacks on politicians' homes. Sometimes 400 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 3: it's just pickets, sometimes it's graffiti. In the case of 401 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: Martin Kenny who's an opposition TD. He'd be from shin 402 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 3: Fein party. Most of your listeners would probably have heard 403 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: of an Irish Republican kind of left wing Irish Republican party. 404 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: There was a refugee center plan for where he lived 405 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 3: in Letram, and in fairness to him, he spoke out 406 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: against it and he condemned what he called, quote the 407 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 3: far right ideology that has been peddled in this country 408 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 3: about asylum seekers. A week later he was sleeping in 409 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 3: his house with his wife and kids, and his car 410 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: in the driveway was petrol band was firebanned, and they 411 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 3: came back a few months later and did it again 412 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 3: and he was forced to move house. So arson attacks 413 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 3: and politicians is something we haven't seen here since the 414 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 3: original fascists around in the thirties as well. And this 415 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: violence again, like as I said, there hasn't been a 416 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: single arrest. And I give you a perfect example. The 417 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 3: title for the book Burned Them Out is from an 418 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 3: event that happened in February twenty twenty three. A guy 419 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: stood up in front of a Garda police station here 420 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 3: in Fingles, which would be a big suburb of Dublin, 421 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 3: and there was a huge crowd of anti immigrant protesters around. 422 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 3: One of them was waving a swastika flag, and this 423 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: guy stood up in front of them with a megaphone 424 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: in front of the police station said there is no 425 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 3: point standing here outside the Garda station. The only way 426 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: to deal with refugees is to burn them out. Go 427 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: where they're fucking staying and burn down fucking cunts out. 428 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 3: That's a direct quote. And of course, had he been 429 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: threatening that violence against the guardy, had he been threatening 430 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: that violence against a private business or a politician, I 431 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: have no doubt he would have been arrested straight away. 432 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: But this masked guy threatening violence in arson was just 433 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: allowed to walk off, So there you go. They're certainly 434 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: not on the ball. And we've even had during the 435 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 3: COVID pandemic when there was a cop nearly killed that 436 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 3: had a firework shot at him during one of these riots. 437 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: The police commissioner in the South of Ireland, who's formerly 438 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, a very controversial 439 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: pro British police force that used to be in the North. 440 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: This guy's our new police commissioner down South, and he 441 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: tried to blame Republicans and the Ira for the violence 442 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 3: and left wing extremists for the violence that was happening, 443 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: and it was so clear that you know, Republicans, Irish 444 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 3: Republicans have been on the streets opposing these people and 445 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 3: their marches for years. 446 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Like the 447 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: actual organizing of the anti fascist movement in Ireland, how 448 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: is it kind of responded to the mean explosion in 449 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: some cases a literal explosion in far right violence on 450 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: the street, Like are you seeing it kind of reach 451 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: like New Heights or does it kind of seem like 452 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: it's unprepared for the moment that we're hitting, because, like 453 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: I mean, in the United States, it's kind of hard 454 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: to tell because things have changed so much since twenty twenty, right, 455 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: Like a lot of the fascist violence that we're seeing 456 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: is now explicitly from the state, and so there's just 457 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: not a lot of on the ground. There's not the 458 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: same kind of on the ground response to it that 459 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 2: you were seeing when it was groups like the Proud Boys. 460 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering kind of how things have changed since 461 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen in that regard in Ireland. 462 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 3: I suppose, like if you think back as far as 463 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, Tommy Robinson, friend of the Pod, attempted to 464 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 3: organize He's Anti Islamic, He's Islamophobic Pigida movement tried to 465 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 3: launch a branch of it in Dublin and they couldn't 466 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: even get to their rallying point because there were five 467 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 3: thousand anti fascists on the street. They're against them, Irish Republicans, 468 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 3: Irish language activists, Muslim community from Dublin were their LGBT 469 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 3: activists and they couldn't even get to have their events. 470 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: So up until COVID, certainly the anti fascists and groups 471 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 3: like Antie Fascist Action Ireland were excellent at closing down 472 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 3: small groups. You have a lot of people who are 473 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: doing online research and exposing these people's sorted histories and 474 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 3: their international connections. So that's one thing we're pretty good at. 475 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 3: And what it turns out is that a lot of 476 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 3: these guys, like one of the main proponents of the 477 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: QAnon conspiracy theory here was a guy called Rowan Croft 478 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 3: who just happened to be a former British Army soldier. 479 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 3: So that doesn't fly too well in Ireland from somebody 480 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: standing up saying I'm a great Irish patriot and I'm 481 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: going to stop the foreigners, like, well, hang out a minute. 482 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 3: When you chose to fight in the military, you chose 483 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: to serve the Queen of England. So you have big 484 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 3: national groups like Anti Fascist Action, you have groups like 485 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 3: Anti Imperialist Action Ireland. Thankfully, as these protests have sprung 486 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: up around the country, these far right anti immigrant protests, 487 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,959 Speaker 3: they have always been countered. And I'm thinking of in 488 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 3: Cork City when the library was being attacked and it 489 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: would actually had to be closed down for a period, 490 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 3: and it was the first time that the Court Library 491 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 3: had closed since the British burnt it down during our 492 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: revolution in the nineteen twenties. And you know, you had 493 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 3: a crowd of maybe one hundred far rights and people 494 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 3: on the opposite side, the anti fascist scene kept building 495 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: and building until by the end, and I was there 496 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: for some of these protests, we had four or five 497 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: hundred against them, and eventually we decided, right, we're going 498 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 3: to stand and protect the library. And that happened in 499 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: other places like Limerick, and it happened in Dublin, and 500 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 3: eventually the far right said, well, we can't even get 501 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: near the library to have our protest. Anymore, and they dissipated. 502 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 3: One thing that's very interesting here is the optics, and 503 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 3: sometimes on the lefts and on the anti fascist side 504 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 3: were not as good at the imagery and the using 505 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 3: new technology and stuff. And one thing you'll always see is, 506 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: you know when anti fascists are mobilizing in Ireland, and 507 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 3: you know they'll have often red flags, they'll have the 508 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 3: Palestinian flag, they'll have Irish left wing republican flags like 509 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 3: the plow and the stars, but often we don't carry 510 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: our national flag the tricolor as much. And of course 511 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 3: the far right love fetishizing flags and they have the green, 512 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 3: white and orange Irish tricolor everywhere. Often of course these 513 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 3: people are so ignorant they fly it wrong way around 514 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: and it's the orange, white and green, so it's like 515 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: vive lookout Divoir. It's the Ivory Coast flag if you 516 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 3: have it the wrong way. But it's interesting in some 517 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: of the clashes you'll have anti fascists with the Irish 518 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: flag and fascists with the Irish flag. But I think 519 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 3: just in terms of optics, it sometimes looks very bad 520 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: when the far right are able to clip out a 521 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 3: section of the opposing crowd and say, look, they have 522 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 3: Palestinian flags, they have all other LGBT Pride flags, but 523 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 3: they're not proud to be Irish. They don't have Irish flags, 524 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: and there could be some Irish flags kipped off of 525 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: the side. So these people in the far right are 526 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: very good at using the history of Irish politics and 527 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 3: resistance to Britain and using the imagery of that struggle 528 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 3: and co opping it. And I think it's very important 529 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 3: that we on the anti fascist side don't surrender any 530 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 3: of that to them. And I mean the Irish flag 531 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: what it stands for. The green bit is for Catholics 532 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: who want independence, the orange bit is for Protestants who 533 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 3: wanted to be linked with Britain, and the white was 534 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: for peace and unity. So it's a flag that at 535 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: it's for the essence, you know, talks about respecting a 536 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 3: religious minority of people from a colonial or or immigrant 537 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 3: background to arrived here a strangers. Yeah. 538 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, well I want to I want to continue this 539 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,239 Speaker 2: discussion and then close things out, but first we've got 540 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: one more ad break. 541 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: To do. 542 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 3: And we're back. 543 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, I kind of wanted to end this by 544 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: looking into a little like what are you kind of 545 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: looking for in the future, like in the in the 546 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: kind of the the next year or two in in Ireland, 547 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: like what are you what are you expecting? What do 548 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: you what are you worried to see? Like, yeah, what 549 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: what do you kind of see? Cut moving forward here. 550 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: I think what's tending to happen now is genius out 551 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: of the bottle and far right message is spreading. And 552 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: you had this big far right rally of you know, 553 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 3: ten thousand and five to ten thousand people at its 554 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: maximum that came down O'Connell Street in Dublin, the main 555 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 3: street in the capital city. It's not huge by political standards, 556 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: but it is worrying. I think we're going to see 557 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: that grow. And I think on the left sometimes and 558 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 3: particularly in the trade union movement, we have this idea 559 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: that all this is a flash in the pan and 560 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: will organize a few big rallies and they'll go away. 561 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: They won't. This is like the National Front in Britain. 562 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: You know, these people are going to be around haunting 563 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 3: Irish politics for least a decade, and then they're never 564 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 3: going to fully go away. They'll pop back up again. 565 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: I think we're going to continue to see the regional protests, 566 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: and I think as well, we have started seeing the 567 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: Irish government, which is a coalition of two center right parties, 568 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 3: kind of tighten up their own language on immigration. We're 569 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 3: starting seeing an increasing number of deportations as well. The 570 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: police really still aren't fully on the ball. They are, 571 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: of course, being given new policing powers by the government 572 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 3: to deal with violent protests that are being issued with 573 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: things like, you know, new non legal technologies, you know, 574 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: pepper splay and extra equipment and body cameras that they 575 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: wouldn't have had before. But of course the classic thing 576 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 3: is that these will always be used as much, if 577 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: not more so against the left and the anti fascist 578 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: side than they will be against the racists. Thankfully, these groups, 579 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 3: you know, they're all in fighting with each other. They 580 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 3: have tried to do like electoral packs and to plan 581 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: out political strategies, but thankfully they're all so fixated on 582 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: wanting to be the furire that never really works. But 583 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 3: what I was going to say a minute ago is 584 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: that that ten thousand people, if there were that many 585 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: on the street, not everyone in that is far right. 586 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: You know, Some of the people are from working class 587 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: communities that have been betrayed by the government and have 588 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: been abandoned, and they are starting they've just fallen down 589 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 3: the rabbit hole. And I can think of an incident. 590 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 3: I was in the gym a couple of months back 591 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: and just sitting there, and there were a few guys. 592 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 3: Didn't know they were around chatting. Obviously we were in 593 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 3: the gym. None of us are in the sauna, none 594 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 3: of us have many clothes on, and none of these 595 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: guys had like questionable far right tattoos or anything like that. 596 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 3: But the conversation suddenly started about immigrants and how they 597 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 3: were bringing crime, and how they were bringing disease and 598 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 3: all this kind of stuff. And I listened to it 599 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 3: for a minute or two and I just stood up 600 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: and said, lads, everything you are saying about immigrants in 601 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 3: Ireland now is what was said about Irish people in 602 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: America in the nineteenth century and in England in like 603 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: the seventies and the eighties. So I think it's important 604 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 3: that even in our workplaces on public transport, when we 605 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 3: hear it this kind of talk, we call it out 606 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 3: if it's a friend of ours who's fallen down the 607 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 3: rabbit hole into these conspiracies. Because that's how their message 608 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: is spreading now. Often when you see people involved in 609 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 3: some of this anti immigrant rioting, they have no history 610 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: of involvement in far right groups, but it's that message 611 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 3: has spread beyond those groups thanks to our friends in 612 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 3: the nerd Reich. And I think if we have a 613 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,959 Speaker 3: work colleague or a brother or somebody who falls into that, 614 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: but we don't abandon them, we don't immediately start calling 615 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 3: them a Nazi and whatever that, we try to talk 616 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 3: top them round to it. But look, I suppose the 617 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: thing is there is hope, and everywhere these people have organized, 618 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: there have been anti fascists there to meet them. I 619 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 3: think we need to get better at planning that in 620 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: a national scale. Of course, on the left you always 621 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 3: get this factionalism and in fighting. I'm not standing beside him, 622 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 3: he's tratskis well, I don't like his views in the north. 623 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: Whatever we need to kind of say, as long as 624 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 3: we're fighting with each other, the fascists are winning. Thankfully, 625 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,239 Speaker 3: none of these people have ever gotten more than two 626 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 3: percent in an election. They have nobody elected in our 627 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 3: national parliament. They only have four or five, maybe six 628 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 3: councilors elected in the entire of the southern part of 629 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 3: the country and that's out of nine hundred and forty 630 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 3: nine councilors. But we can't just laugh at them. We 631 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: can't worry the CITA threat because when the Nazis stood 632 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 3: for election the first time, I think they only got 633 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 3: two percent of the vote as well, and look how 634 00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: that turned out. 635 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: Well yeah, and as we've seen in the US, like 636 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: what starts as this tiny, tiny number of freaks and 637 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: weirdos can wind up being a mass movement if it's 638 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 2: not you know, cauterized, right, Like that's and that's that's 639 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: kind of the challenge in front of Irish anti fascists 640 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: right now is ensuring that that quarterization happens absolutely. 641 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 3: And I mean, look, if you think of this, you know, 642 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: Elon Musks tip McGregor for president and we're all laughing 643 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 3: at it now, but you know, it wouldn't be the 644 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 3: first time that Elon Musk has tipped a reality TV 645 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 3: star with a questionable sexual and criminal history for high 646 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: office and they got. 647 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: There, right yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, thank you so much. 648 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: Do you want to have anything you want to plug 649 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 2: here at the end of the episode, I mean your 650 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: book obviously. 651 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, obviously I'm not. I'm not on ex Twitter 652 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 3: anything like that. I don't have a substack or anything. 653 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: So just the main thing I want to plug is 654 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 3: my book Burned Them Out, a history of fascism and 655 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 3: the far right in Ireland. It is published by Bloomsbury 656 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 3: head of Zeus, so it should be available in any 657 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 3: to order via any bookshop. Obviously. If you are going 658 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: to support a bookshop, support a small independent one Robert 659 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 3: and Barnes and Noble. And if you are buying it online, 660 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 3: obviously buy it from direct from the publishers Bloomsbury. Don't 661 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 3: buy it off Amazon if you can, because God knows 662 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 3: Jeff Besis has enough money. 663 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: Yeah certainly, bloody Well, thank you so much. And yeah 664 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: that's that's our episode. Everybody come back tomorrow and we'll 665 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: have another one. 666 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 667 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 668 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 669 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 670 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, 671 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening