WEBVTT - The Proteus Effect 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.880 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:14.000 Works dot com. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.520 Blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.200 Joe McCormick. And today we're gonna be touching on a 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:24.239 topic related to virtual characters. That's right. This was a 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.040 topic that was suggested to us by our listener Peter, 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.880 who is quite involved in virtual reality these days, and 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.040 he said, hey, you guys should do an episode on 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.519 the proteus effect. Now, the proteus effect is something that 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.440 will deal with virtual characters. So we're gonna be touching 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:43.440 on video games and virtual environments and stuff like that. 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.599 But even if you're somebody who has no personal interests 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.880 in video games or anything like that, I hope you 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.760 stick around because it's an interesting topic nonetheless, and I 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.320 think it will ultimately have some relevance to yourself in 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.760 the society you live in, even if you're not somebody 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.920 who's ever played games or plans on playing games, because 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.639 a lot of it does just hinge upon the idea 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.199 of what happens when we put on this other face, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.480 and it could be you can you can take it 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.959 to the virtual reality extremes to where there is a 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.840 body that I am occupying and I'm walking around in 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.759 it within a virtual environment. There's the video game level 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.720 of a character that I have. I have picked out 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.480 its face, I have picked out it's it's clothing options, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.880 and now I am interacting with a digital world through it. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.000 But you can also take it down to the avatar 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:35.800 level on various message boards or email threads, etcetera. Yeah, totally. Now, 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.760 if you're not familiar with how some of these video 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.920 games work, where you create an avatar for yourself, this 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:44.960 this is a thing that happens in a lot of games. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.120 There's a character creation process. Not all games. Some games 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.800 the character I mean some games you don't actually even 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.840 play as a character. You don't embody a person shaped thing. 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.600 They're like puzzle games and stuff. But in games where 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.760 you play as a character of some hype, some of 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.560 them it's just a fictional, pre established character. But sometimes 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.840 you get to create that character yourself, right, and there's 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.680 usually the beginning of the game some type of process 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.000 you go through to do that, and you get to 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.240 like pick what they look like, and maybe pick what 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.160 some of their personality attributes are or what some of 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.880 their skills are a lot of games have a thing 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.360 like this. Robert, do you have a favorite favorite character 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.720 creation Yeah, well, I'd say more the more recent games. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.160 I've really enjoyed the like the sky Rim and Fallout 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.720 character creation suites. I feel like you have a lot 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.799 of a lot of options there and you can kind 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:39.560 of create exactly the character you want. Uh. Thinking back 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.160 to the older games, I was a big fan of 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.760 ice wind Dale and ice wind Dale too. I have 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.920 no idea what that is. These were turn based dungeons 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.160 and Dragons, uh, role playing games that you would play 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.160 online like top down View and that they so it 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.800 was virtual. It was not like a pin and paper, 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.480 not pin and paper. These were video games. They were 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:06.160 the same engine as Balter's Gay and Torment was another 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.760 one though Torment had pre created characters but was still 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.680 a fabulous game. But the creation suite, especially on on 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:13.800 ice wind Dale too, as I remember, they had some 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.440 really cool character art you could you could select for 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.880 the thumbnail. I believe that through some minor tinkering you 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.840 could bring in outside art to serve as the thumbnail 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:24.880 and then you had a fair that these were not 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.520 the most detailed of characters on the screen, but you 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.000 had a fair amount of choice and how they were 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.359 put together as well. Yeah, So one of the things 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.120 we're going to be exploring today is what are the 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:43.800 effects of coming to embody a character in a virtual environment? 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.240 Does that change the player when you play as a 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:53.560 character with certain physical or behavioral attributes? Now, Robert, my 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.600 the main character creation process in video games I remember 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.480 from when I was younger is not as interesting as yours. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.840 It was the wrestler creation mode in the Nintendo sixty 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.680 four game WWF war Zone, which I played when I 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.920 was in like six seventh grade, I think this game, yeah, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.080 and so it was this terrible, blocky looking wrestling game, 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.839 uh that had the WWF wrestlers in it, but you 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.119 could create a custom wrestler. And so what my friends 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.960 and I would always do is try to figure out 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.520 how to create the most ridiculous looking wrestler you possibly 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.359 could that had like I don't know, like you know, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.159 legs that were five times wider than his head and 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.240 wearing some crazy Easter egg costume. And it was it 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.280 was mainly for laughs, but we did put a lot 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.359 of time and energy into it. It was like we 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.680 had to achieve peak ridiculousness. Well, the ultimate tragedy is 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.600 that you were just a few years away from w 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.800 w F WrestleMania two thousand and No Mercy, which were 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.760 both in sixty four wrestling games built on the the 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.760 a Ki Virtual Pro Wrestling engine from Japan. I don't 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.279 know what that is. They were fabulous games, just a 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:05.080 fabulous engine for the game. But you know, they these 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.440 wrestling games have come a long ways. I was never 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.960 into creating myself in them because it just felt weird 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.040 to me, but I knew people that would do it, 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.200 And nowadays you can. You can like bring in scans 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.120 of your own face or the scans of virtually any 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:27.320 existing wrestler or celebrity and create an amazingly life like 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:32.240 just an immaculate representation of that individual in these updated 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.839 wrestling games. So you scan yourself in and you make 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.320 a virtual copy of yourself and then watch it get 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.880 beat down by stone Cold exactly. However, Yeah, go through 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.200 a table or bleed through its face, and it's, uh, 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.200 the technology is amazing, and yet at the same point, 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.160 it's it's it's it's even stranger to me to try 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.960 and imagine myself doing that, like creating a like a 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.000 muscled avatar of myself that just goes in there and 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.720 just gets beat to a luddy pulp. Now, on one hand, 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.440 you could look at that and say, Okay, that's you know, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.479 it's just people horsing around having fun play in some games, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.360 which is generally true, and if you take that attitude, 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.839 you're probably not gonna, you know, think that there's anything 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.400 super meaningful going on here. But on the other hand, 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:20.720 it's really worth wondering how doing something like that could 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.960 affect you and possibly change you. This is not a 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.320 scenario that we are biologically adapted for in any way. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.080 I would say that there's no analogy in nature to 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.520 creating a virtual environment in which you take on the 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:44.440 characteristics of a created character and play within that virtual environment. 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.080 I mean, I guess you could say that they're like 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:51.359 rituals maybe where people sort of embody mythological characters that 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.720 they play within the rituals, Right, But even then you're 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.200 still bound to your body when you're doing that enactment. Yeah, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:06:59.800 I mean, the only other example I can think of 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:04.600 is just uh, the mental mental time travel, chromasthesia and 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:09.760 imagining various scenarios occurring and extrapolating how you might react 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.640 in those situations. But then you're still pretty much bound 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.640 to yourself unless there's a particular example from uh, you know, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.840 from from from cultural history where someone is embodying in 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.240 this process, they are embodying the aspect of a god, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.480 but I am not aware of it. If there is, well, yeah, 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.320 I would say the imagination that's pretty much the only 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.840 equivalent space. But the imagination is not physically enacted. When 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:40.400 you do virtual environments, you have to physically perform movements 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.280 within those virtual environments. You have to like, you know, 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.720 you move a controller or something like that. It's a 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.920 it's a challenging process that you have to engage with, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.960 and that is more continuous than imagination, which tends to 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.080 kind of come in and out. Right. Yeah, the the 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.920 just merely imagining something or reading a book is probably 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.480 not gonna update your body schema, which into the way 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.680 that you're thinking about your own body. Right, So you 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:08.680 have to wonder does the idea of playing as a 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:14.560 character different than yourself change yourself? Does going into a 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:19.760 virtual environment and embodying some other type of being make 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.200 you a different kind of being in reality? And that's 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.160 what we're gonna be looking at today, So let's take 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.240 a moment to talk about just the name of of 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.440 the effect here, the Proteus effect. So who was Proteus, Well, 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.880 it would see he was a character in the matrix, 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.400 right was he was there? A Proteus matrix. So it's 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.760 been a while since I've entered the matrix. Uh, well, 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.600 you know, the funny thing is, it would seem that 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.559 that fate would have us return once more to the 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.960 world of undersea gods and humanoids, because because what we 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.960 have here is Proteus from Greek mythology, the old Man 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.760 of the Sea, the Old Man of the Sea. Yeah, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.520 essentially a primordial sea god. As with all things mythological, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.520 Proteus is exact identity, and his role shifts over time. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.720 But that's quite fitting for Proteus in a number of ways. 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.439 In Giants, Monsters and Dragons by Carol Rose, an encyclopedia 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.040 of fantastic Entities and Creatures that I come back to 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.439 again and again, she describes him as quote a primordial 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.040 sea giant and quote a type of gigantic merman and 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.440 guardian of the sea creatures. And he served Poseidon, the 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.160 sea god. He boasted the gift of prophecy as well, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.240 but you had to catch him to get him to 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.560 share his prophecies. Wait, how do you catch him? Is 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.560 that like rod and lure kind of catching Or essentially 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.320 it's like you gotta chase him down and fight him, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.560 wrestle him, overcome him that way. But the problem is 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.640 that Proteus can change his shape. He can change it 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.040 into something more monstrous to escape you, uh, you know, 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.760 swifter to escape do you escape you with etcetera. Uh. 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.640 The secret, though, ends up being revealed by his daughter Elda, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.200 the uh who who lets a few select mortals know 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.840 that you have to catch him while he's sleeping on 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.240 the island of Pharaohs. Now. Various other accounts describe him 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.960 as not only a shape changer, but a being that 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:17.720 is just constantly changing shape, as being essentially formless, which 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:19.680 is fitting because this is a is a god of 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.520 the sea. This makes him like the sea itself. He 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.880 is liquid, He is ever changing, difficult to predict, kind 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.760 of like those identity masks in a scanner. Darkly. Yeah, 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.600 it's sort of like never really taking a solid form, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.520 so you can't really identify somebody later. Yeah, or and 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.800 and would make him difficult to catch as well. And 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.719 this is where we get the word protean, which means 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.800 tending or able to change frequently or easily. Uh. Sometimes 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.760 it's used just to just in the place of versatile. 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.720 But I think that's sort of usage is kind of 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.720 an insult to the gods, because you might say that, say, 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.040 Sammy Hagar is versatile and that he can front a 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.120 band and run a tequila brand. But I think it's 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.920 a bit much to say that that Sammy Hagar, it's protean. 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.080 Though that's impressive. I can do neither of those things. No, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.360 I I see what you're saying. Like a protean suggests 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:16.760 some more fundamental changes and and commitments to different natures, right, 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.599 whereas versatile just says that you can, you can multitask, 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.920 you can do some different stuff. Yeah, protean almost has it. 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.840 I mean it has a sort of mad or holy 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.000 vibe to it, right, Like something that is protean is 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.320 um is difficult for us to master and grasp, And 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.360 maybe the same is true of Sammy Hagar. I'm not sure. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.719 Certainly it's hard to get him to commit to a 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:41.720 speed limit. We know that much. Robert where at all 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.360 the Sammy Hagar come from. I don't know. You just 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.640 listen to the Classic rock radio the other day and 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.000 I was just trying to think about who's who is 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.800 an individual that's considered versatile in their interests, and I 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.520 Sammy Hagar, Well, I know I have. I initially thought 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.640 of of Maynard from Tool, but then I thought, well, 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.640 I don't know, maybe Maynard is protean. I'm not sure 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.640 he's a he's a he's he's a mysterious dude that's 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.920 called Sammy Hagar instead. So it's a clear cut you're 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.439 saying Maynard from Tool he does he does his alternative 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.440 hard rock thing, and he does his I've got a 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.640 vineyard I make wine thing yeah and m m a 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.960 oh yeah he's into fighting. Yeah yeah, he has has 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.880 multiple dimensions to his character. The idea it all comes 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.600 back to wrestling in the end. Yeah, maybe not all 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:31.200 that protean, but that's certainly versatile. But today we're not 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.679 talking about Sammy Hagar. We're not talking about Maynard, We're 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.560 not even really talking about Greek shape shifters. We're talking 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:42.480 about the Internet, video games, virtual reality, and the idea 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.960 that we get to pick and choose our form, and 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.559 in doing so, maybe we have to choose our identity. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.480 All right, well, we will take a quick break. When 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.720 we come back, we will get into the original research 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:57.199 on the proteus effect. Thank alright, we're back, all right now. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.680 The short definition of the proteus effect is that it 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.280 is a name for the way that avatars, meaning virtual 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.400 characters that we embody. It's a name for the way 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:13.000 that avatars change our behavior in a virtual environment. So 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.640 there was some original research on this subject between the 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.600 years like two thousand seven and two thousand nine or so. 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.960 That's when this first came out, and it was associated 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:23.880 with the work of a researcher by the name of 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:28.040 Nicki Ye and Nikki he was. He was the scientist 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.720 behind the original proteus effect, and he summarized his original 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.079 research in an article I read from two thousand and 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.960 nine where he pointed out some of the main features 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.160 that they had discovered in their first couple of studies 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.360 on it. So he points out, to start with, this 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.400 was sort of like the starting basis of the idea 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:51.200 that putting on certain garments, clothing and uniforms has been 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.920 shown to change people's behavior. For example, there are these 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.960 experiments that show that when you dress subjects in black uniforms, 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.520 they behave more aggressively than when you dress them in 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.320 white uniforms. And experiments like these show that to some extent, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.280 our behavior is influenced by visual self perception. We act 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.040 out the parts people would expect us to act out 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.920 based on how we look. And I think this is 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.720 probably the same kind of research that informs, or at 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.080 least partially informs the old business idea that you should 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.400 dress for the job you want, not the job you 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.120 have rights right now, I think the part of that 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.480 advice is based on the reasoning the dressing that way 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.800 will influence the people who have the power to hire 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.120 or promote you. Right that you want to look the part, 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.240 and so you're trying to influence others. But there's another 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.000 side of that that dressing for the job you want 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.560 is also an influence on the self. It can also 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.200 be a beneficial alteration of self perception. If you dress 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.760 like someone with a certain job, you'll probably find yourself 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.280 behaving and performing more like someone who belongs in that job. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.600 You put the costume on, and the costume helps you 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.760 get into character. But what this research shows with the 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.640 way in clothes cognition changes us is that the costume 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.600 tends to get you into character, whether you mean to 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.360 get into character or not. Now we've touched on in 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.400 clothes cognition on the show in the past, cognitive psychologist 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:23.320 Joe Adam and Adam Galinsky from Northwestern University coined the term. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:25.800 One of the most famous examples is the use of, 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.600 say a lab coat. What happens when you wear a 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.000 lab coat and maybe carry a clipboard around. Well, they 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.280 found that the effect would work. You would feel like 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.520 smarter or more, you know, in control of your doctor's 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.440 status here, But only if you wore the coat and 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.840 we're aware of the symbolic meaning. So you actually you 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.200 have to know what it's about, what it represents, and 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.040 you actually have to essentially make it a part of 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.920 your body by covering yourself in it. Yeah, I would 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.920 say that essentially the way this works is that you're 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.920 performing according to stereotypes, but you have to be aware 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.680 of the stereo peotypes to perform according to them, right, right, 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.400 And then, according to Golinski as well, we don't just 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.320 think with our brains, but with our bodies and our 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:13.120 thought processes are based on physical quote physical experiences that 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.520 set off associated abstract concepts. Yeah, I think. I mean 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.760 this might sound kind of silly, but I think about 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:26.080 the way that wearing a suit jacket changes the way 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.720 I behave I think sometimes it does, and I very 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.160 much associated literally with the way my shoulders and my 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.640 arms feel. Well I put on a suit jacket, I 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.320 feel the tension in the way the jacket constrains the 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:44.040 movements of my shoulders or not not necessarily constrains them, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.320 but you know, you feel you can feel the jacket 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.040 that's shaped like that, the suit jacket, and it actually 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.920 does influence I think, probably the way I talk, probably 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.080 to some extent, the way I react to people, whether 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.760 I'm more likely to shake somebody's hand. I mean, obviously 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.760 there's no way to fully test this in a controlled way, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.119 but I strongly suspect that it changes my behavior, and 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.280 it changes my behavior through a constant, attenuated awareness of 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.120 what my body feels like in that piece of clothing. 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.960 So you're not you're not only dressing like business Joe, 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.199 you become business Joe. You know, Business Joe's different than 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.080 a lot of other business shows because the suit jackets 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.280 I wear are are not like cool business jackets. They're 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.600 more like old seventies jackets I got from my dad. Now, 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.159 I think we do need to be careful with this 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.480 kind of research because I think it's very easy to 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:37.119 interpret it in an overly determinative way. For example, I 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.600 was I was wondering, Okay, are there studies that have 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.399 found the opposite, that have found that this whole you know, 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.399 like wearing a black uniform doesn't actually change the way 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.120 you behave compared to wearing some other colored uniform. And yeah, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.120 there there are studies going the opposite way, not necessarily 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.879 that undercut the original findings, but at least that showed 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.160 that the effect is obviously not the same in all contexts. 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.280 For example, the search has been applied to uniform colors 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.280 in professional sports, and I found a two thousand ten 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.840 study that found no correlation at all between uniform color 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.280 and aggression in professional hockey. This is the basic argument 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.480 was that like if you wore red, right, if you 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.639 wear like a red uniform or a black uniform or something, 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:20.720 that you're going to be more aggressive than if you 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.480 wear like a blue uniform or green uniform. And this 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.840 study found no correlation of that kind, said it didn't 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.600 matter what color uniforms the hockey players were wearing. But 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.080 like I said, it doesn't mean the original research is wrong, 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.119 just that it probably applies differently in different contexts and 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.640 depends on a lot of different variables. So, but back 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.560 to what was Ye's research to establish the idea of 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.199 the proteus effect. So, in a serious experiment, starting with 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.879 one published in two thousand seven, Ye and colleagues tried 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.240 to study whether the same perception embodiment, whether the same 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.760 like embodiment of what others see you looking like that 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.879 takes place with clothes and costumes also takes place with 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:07.679 virtual costumes, meaning virtual characters. Does the virtual avatar that 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.639 you choose to represent you in a video game or 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.480 a virtual world change who you are and how you 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.280 behave Now this question instantly makes me think back to 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.240 screens that I've seen a second life. I have not, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.480 I've never really used second life myself, but they never 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.560 really Does that mean you have a little bit? Well, 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.520 what I did is that I attended a church service 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.520 where the the individual giving the sermon also did the 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:40.439 sermon in second life, and there were individuals gathered from, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.879 you know, across the country, and I guess beyond in 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.600 a virtual if that's the right word for a second 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.360 life environment, a virtual chapel uh to share in the sermon. 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.080 And they were attending in various forms. So some people 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.600 were women, some people were male, some people were like 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.600 animals or animal human hybrids. So that is I instantly 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.200 thought to that and thought, well, you know, I wonder 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.359 what was going on in each of their minds, Like 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:10.320 what did their chosen forms say about their ideal identity, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.119 their experienced identity, etcetera. I've never considered this question before, 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.120 but what generally would the theologians of the various religions 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.960 say about whether the rituals and sacraments of their religion 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:28.160 are effective if performed virtually. So like, if you, for example, 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.919 receive holy communion in a Christian church, or do a 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.439 ritual in any religion, but do it not physically with 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.639 your body, but virtually in a virtual environment, does the 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.639 sacrament work? Does it confer the same benefit? Huh? Well, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.440 that's a great question. I don't recall. I don't think 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.440 this particular service involved communion, but maybe it did, and 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.840 I just forgot about it. I imagine that, though, of course, 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.440 would hinge upon your faith, you know, particular beliefs about communion. 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:00.679 Uh for instance, so whether the bread actually becomes the 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:02.760 body of Christ in your body, that sort of thing. 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.880 But then again, if if you believe that, then why 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.560 can't the the digital communion wafer do the same thing? Somehow? 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:13.480 I don't know. Well, it takes me back to the 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.679 techno religion question we are. I don't know if we 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.240 ever got into this question in our techno religion episodes, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.040 but we did talk about the idea of whether a 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.560 virtual similar simulated prayer wheel is just as effective as 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.760 a physical prayer wheel. That's right, Uh yeah, because of course, 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.120 the the the traditional prayer wheels are essentially a machine 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:35.560 praised in what tradition? Is it Buddhist or Buddhist? Yes? 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.639 Uh so, it's it's a wheel that contains h the 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.439 prayer as it's usually like written down on sheet of 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.719 paper and or not a sheet of paper, but it's 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.600 a long string of paper coiled up in there, and 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:52.320 by by turning it, you are turning the prayer. Uh. 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.719 But how is that really that different from a digital 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.920 machine doing the same thing. It's just a it's an 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.040 advancement in the technology, but but it doesn't seem like 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.040 it's an advancement in the basic idea. Well, I find 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.239 that a very interesting question, and maybe we can come 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:07.680 back to it in the future. But we are getting 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.800 off subject. Okay, So we're looking at the first study 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.280 by Ye and colleagues, and this was in two thousand 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.680 seven and human Communication research, And what the researchers did 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:21.040 in the study is compare subjects with a virtual avatar 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.159 designed to be either attractive or unattractive. So they had 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:28.720