1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: for joining us. Let's hear it for the Man, the myth, 4 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: the super producer, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: Oh Man, You're. 6 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 3: Right, guys, ready to get intellectual and with a bunch 7 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 3: of our property today. 8 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: I guess, hey, hey, I will trade some marks. They 9 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: call me, Ben Bullen. Who is that Dulcet music made? Man, 10 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: it's mister Noel Brown. 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 4: Ben, you are still my beating heart. That's the kind 12 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 4: thing I've heard all week. 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: And I mean that. 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 4: You know what I think of whenever I think of 15 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 4: intellectual property, what's that? I'm a child, we know people 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 4: often shorten it to I P and then I my 17 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 4: mind goes back to childhood of that old joke I 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 4: P freely you know them? 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got you. I always think of IP Man 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: because of the Kung Fu films, right yeah, when I 21 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: was I was watching those the first time. As uh 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: as our regular podcast reviews indicate, I am still learning 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: this language English. Uh. When I when I first tuned 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: in to IP Man, I thought it was IP Man, 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: and I thought free Man. I thought it was going 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: to be about a very different kind of heroes. 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 4: Patent lawyer perhaps the dullest action picture of all time 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 4: just gets into it, right, and why don't we get 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 4: into Yeah, that's. 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: What we're doing. We're getting into it. This is part 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: two of a continuing series. Thanks to our research associate 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: Max here. As you know, folks, we have been gathering 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: together specific assets for a heist on ridiculous history. We're 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: very excited to introduce you further to our twenty twenty 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: five crew. IP is something that perplexes and fascinates so 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: many people, and a lot of the rules and policies 37 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: and history of IP as a concept intellectual property. As 38 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: you said, nol, they are indeed ridiculous. So this is 39 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: part two in a continuing series. We teased it a bit. 40 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: We previously explored the origins of the idea of owning 41 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: an idea that's intellectual property. And now we're talking trademarks, man, 42 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: just do. 43 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: It, yeah for sure. 44 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 4: And I personally have always somewhat been baffled by the 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 4: difference between a trademark, a copyright, a patent, a brand, 46 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 4: and the fact of the matter is they're all intrinsically 47 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 4: kind of interrelated, but yet they have their own specific 48 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 4: sort of umami's, each one of them on their own. 49 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 4: Today we are talking about the idea of a trademark. 50 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: So I mean, I think what this episode is going 51 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 4: to serve as is going to be sort of a 52 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 4: good primer on a lot of this stuff, and then 53 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 4: we're going to come at you shortly after, maybe not 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 4: the next exact episode, but I think two episodes down 55 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 4: the road with a really interesting case of trademark infringement 56 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 4: and a storied lawsuit that went on for decades between. 57 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: Apple Computers and the Beatles. 58 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, from earlier. So this is how we're going to proceed, 59 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: Similar to our earlier explorations of patents. We need to 60 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: define the thing we are looking into, and we can 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: define a trademark in a very silly dare I say, 62 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: ridiculous way thanks to the USPTO. Their full name when 63 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: they're in trouble is the United States Patent and Trademark Office. 64 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 4: A bunch of scamps over there at the USPTU. I know, irascibles, 65 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 4: even rascals, and they define the term trademark as is 66 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 4: their craft, their wheelhouse. 67 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 2: They want to do. 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 4: As any word phrase symbol, design, or a combination of 69 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 4: these things that identifies your goods or services. It's how 70 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 4: customers recognize you in the marketplace and distinguish you from 71 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 4: your competition. 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: Which is great because I was listening back to an 73 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: earlier episode where we had a slight riff on things 74 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: that are technically trademark infringement. You know, air Jorbans shout 75 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: out to everybody who heard me just a few minutes 76 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: ago say just do it. That is a Nike trademark 77 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: along with a swoosh, a. 78 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: Douche trans morphers I think came up as well the 79 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: idea of a mockbuster. Ben. 80 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 4: I just have to add you mentioned a slight riff 81 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 4: that we did. I think most of our rifts are 82 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 4: pretty slight, and I'm cool with that. 83 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm alright with it. I think we've got I think 84 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: we had a lot more on the horizon for that one. 85 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: But we did have to actually do our show because 86 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: otherwise it would just be you and me hanging out 87 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: and say saying stuff like bogots instead of gobots. 88 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, and I think you know your results may 89 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 4: very ridiculous. The story as to whether you think our 90 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 4: rifts are slight or eternal. 91 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: The USPP are still learning English, thank you. 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: So. 93 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 4: The USPTO also says that the purpose of a trademark 94 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 4: is the following to identify the source of your goods 95 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 4: or services, one which in and of itself has a 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 4: super interesting historical precedent. And also to provide legal protection 97 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 4: for your brand too, and finally, to help you guard 98 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 4: against counterfeiting and fraud. 99 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: Three. Technically, I would say that's two B. But whatever, 100 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're not in these meetings with these folks. 101 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: Why true, ben, they are very similar. Why is a 102 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: patent different from a trademark? What makes a squid not 103 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: an octopus but still a cephalopod? Unlike the concept of 104 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: the patent, the concept of a trademark is less rigorously defined. 105 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: So if we go back to our Patent and Trademark 106 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: office friends, they will tell us. 107 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: Quote. 108 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: A common misconception is that having a trademark means you 109 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: legally own a particular word a phrase and can prevent 110 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: others from using it. However, you don't have the rights 111 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: to the word or phrase in general, only to how 112 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: that would or phrase used with your specific goods and services. 113 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: And it goes on. But let's allide this real quickly. 114 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: Well, that quote, by the way, came from our pal 115 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: Charles Dickens. 116 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: Yes, thank you. I will accept my baftap with grace 117 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: and won't make the speech too long. So the idea 118 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: here is really tricky. You could, for instance, this is 119 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: a fun, fun little story. You could, for instance, trademark 120 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: the concept of home on a social media platform. That's 121 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: exactly what Mark Zuckerberg did. But you can't own the 122 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: word home, right. You could say you can own it 123 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: for very specific for like a narrow scope of industry, 124 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: if you have a the our patent office folks, and 125 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: thank you again, Chuck Dickens, our patent office folks. Say 126 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: you could, for example, use a logo as a trademark 127 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: for let's say your small woodworking business. You'll witling in corpentine, 128 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: and you can. You can have a little symbol, you 129 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: can have a little phrase you can't stop other people 130 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: from like if you have a log and then a 131 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: thumbs up like an AX that is also a thumbs 132 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: up in the blog. 133 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: For a logo for woodworking bed. 134 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: Oh, thanks man, and this I got a million ideas, right, 135 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: but I've only got these two hands. 136 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: You are what they call an idea man with two hands? 137 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: Is that true? So this doesn't mean that someone else 138 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: can't have a logo that looks very similar if they 139 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: are not in the woodworking industry. Like what if they 140 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: just sell thumbs ups. 141 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 4: Exactly, just like as a service, you pay them and 142 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 4: they issue you one rousing thumbs up yeah or whatever 143 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 4: you did. 144 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's just like an ata boy for hire. 145 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: I like that. 146 00:08:59,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: That's idea. 147 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: That's all cow. 148 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: I should write this down. It's like a task rabbit 149 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: for good vibes. 150 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 4: You know, somebody comes over and pats you on the 151 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 4: back and tells you you're doing a good job. 152 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're in an awkward social event for any 153 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: of our introverts in the crowd. And you imagine you 154 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: could hire someone who just drops in, pats you on 155 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: the back and hands you with thumbs up, and it's 156 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: like a right, and then whoa, I gotta go. 157 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: This was great with no context whatsoever, no now or 158 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 4: we're doing this, no question about it. The thing about trademarks, however, 159 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 4: is is it's kind of to your point, really all 160 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 4: about how you use it and for how long and 161 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 4: with what level of specificity. There's another common misconception, which 162 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 4: is the belief that choosing a trademark that simply describes 163 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 4: your good or service is all there is to it. 164 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: Eh. 165 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the case. It requires. I mean, well, okay, 166 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: this is more of a strategy thing, I guess right. 167 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 4: But what a good trademark really needs is to have 168 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 4: a novel component to it, to be in. 169 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: Some way creative and easy to discern. 170 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 4: That's why we talk about famous trademarks, you know, things 171 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 4: like the swoosh, the aforementioned swoosh and known. Walmart just 172 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 4: recently did a rebrand where they basically took their logo, 173 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 4: which is kind of like an asterisk on a light 174 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 4: blue background, and they just kind of turned on the 175 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 4: bold setting and made the background a little darker blue. 176 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 4: But you could argue that that is a meaningful change, 177 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 4: probably got someone paid a whole lot of money, and 178 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 4: that that logo, however simple, is associated exclusively with something 179 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 4: like Walmart for the purposes of retail. 180 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so shout out or tip of the cap 181 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: to target. I love that you're pointing out the tech industry. 182 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: Those properties are very big with this stuff, Apple, Microsoft, Google, 183 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: all the hits. Also, as you mentioned Walmart Lego. They're 184 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: super deep in trademarks, right, I think we're supposed to 185 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: call them lego bricks. 186 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 4: It's so weird not to mention the fact that a 187 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 4: unique and creative trademark is a whole lot easier to 188 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 4: protect in court and to defend that. Someone else definitely 189 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 4: was trying to dilute my brand by using something that 190 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 4: is very much associated. 191 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: But there also can come a point where that can hurt. 192 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 4: You be so famous that people just use your thing 193 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 4: as a stand in for lots of things. And we're 194 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 4: going to get into that too and introduce you all 195 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 4: to a really cool new word. 196 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, get know our patent in trademark buddies are saying 197 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: the words creative and unique and effective and easier, And 198 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: I would add to that specificity, that's really what they're arguing. 199 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: To your point, Noel, if you had, you know, like 200 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: teenage mutant, ninja turtles, that's a very specific concept, you 201 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's not just a stylized check 202 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: mark on a sporting shoe. 203 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: They combined four whole things. 204 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 4: They're teenagers, their mutants, they're ninjas, and yes they're turtles, 205 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 4: which is you. 206 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: Know, arguably unique. 207 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 4: But then on the other hand, it'd be pretty easy 208 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: just to change the turtles to like raccoons toys instead 209 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:33,239 Speaker 4: of ninjas. 210 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: Maybe they're chefs or syamurai. Yeah. 211 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 4: Also, it's a better example, thank you, much much better example. 212 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 4: But it just shows how tricky navigating this whole idea 213 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 4: of trademarks can be. 214 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: I love the idea too. I'm picturing this as a 215 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: moment in the Ridiculous History cinematic universe. The bedraggled mayor 216 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: of New York City or insert city here is yelling 217 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: at one of his aides or the chief of police 218 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: and is saying, you're telling me there are mutant ninja 219 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: turtles fighting crime is vigilantes in our city, and the 220 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: police chief says it's worse than that's or their teenage. 221 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: Oofs are the worst. That's no good, no doubt. 222 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 4: But those particular teenagers, I think, you know, while getting 223 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 4: into little punch ups between them, they. 224 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: Had good hearts. 225 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. And this is also sort 226 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: of a sideline shout out to our good friend Nick Benson, 227 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: who just is absolute gaga over tn mt Ooh. 228 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 4: I'm glad you you did really well with that. I 229 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 4: would have muddled those letters all up. So you can 230 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 4: establish rights to your trademark simply by using it. 231 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that act. 232 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 4: Alone, while giving you some level of protection, it does 233 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 4: limit that protection only to a very specific geographic region 234 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 4: that you are operating in as a business providing your 235 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: goods and or services. 236 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you want stronger protections, the argument goes here, 237 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: in the United States, you will want to register your 238 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: trademark with this branch of the government or with this 239 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: department of the government. 240 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 4: It's kind of similar to copyright law in that technically 241 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 4: you get copyright protection the moment you create a unique work, 242 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 4: but if you don't actually get it copywritten or registered, 243 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: you know, like with the Library of Congress or whatever, 244 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 4: then it's easier for someone to. 245 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: Challenge you on that claim. 246 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: By these days, with computers, you could certainly submit a 247 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 4: digital file that you've created with a timestamp, and you 248 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 4: could technically prove that you did it first. With trademarks, 249 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 4: it's even a little more kind of muddled up and confusing. 250 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, you are not required to register 251 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: your trademark. There is no legal compulsion to do so 252 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: here in the US. However, you just made the excellent 253 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: astute point Noal. The primary advantage here for a lot 254 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: of people in registration is that timeline. It is setting 255 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: that chronology in place and on record. That's why a 256 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: registered trademark gives you more rights and more protection than 257 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: an unregistered one. Without getting into the weeds too far, 258 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: we can see the tendency already. If you have a 259 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: very small woodworking business with a thumbs up axe going 260 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: through it, and you only work in this one specific 261 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: part of Montana or North Dakota, you're probably good to go. 262 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: But as your business grows and as more and more 263 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: eyes are upon you, you might get some copycats. And that's 264 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: where you want to consider registering on a federal level, 265 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: which means that you will have nationwide enforceable rights. Maybe again, 266 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: it's pretty muddy. 267 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 4: And just to once again give a shout out to 268 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: all of our pals at the United States Patent and 269 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: Trademark Office, a lot of this excellent information comes directly 270 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 4: from them, which I would argue would be probably the 271 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 4: best primary source on this subject, because you know, you 272 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: literally have to register it with them. 273 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where we get to that fun 274 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: little symbol. It's a tiny it's a tiny capital R 275 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: in a circle, which means registered, and you can use 276 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: that symbol to let the public know that this is 277 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: your trademark. So you could, for example, say shoe feet, 278 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, registered trademark, and people would be like, why 279 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: did you spend so much time then working on shoes 280 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: that look like feet? Why would you want people to 281 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: pretend they're barefoot? And to that, I would say, this 282 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: conversation is over. 283 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: Time as well as should be. 284 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 4: You are to be the last word on shoe feet, 285 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 4: So I have to say I do not trust anyone 286 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 4: that wears those toe shoes. 287 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: I don't find them reprehensible. 288 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, like I said this in early recording with you, 289 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: but like our old pal Caudle Byrne often says, it 290 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: solves a problem I don't have. 291 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 4: Also true, And just to add a little bit of 292 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 4: quick clarity, you may have also seen that subscript of 293 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: TM that can be slapped on there by anybody, because 294 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 4: that represents an unregistered trademark. 295 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: Whereas the R has a lot more oomped to, it 296 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: has a lot more weight. It can only be used 297 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: legally by the owner or licensee of a registered trademark, 298 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 2: and can only be used in the region where that 299 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: trademark is registered. 300 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so at this point we're giving you the broad 301 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: strokes of how this works as a concept. 302 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I was around of the broad struck side. 303 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yes, so you saw ip Man as well. 304 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: I did. 305 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: So that's a that's an ip Man move. Uh No, 306 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: Maybe we get to the the history, because it may 307 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: surprise a lot of our fellow ridiculous historians to learn 308 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: that this is a very old idea, so old in 309 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: fact that we're not sure when it began. 310 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: It's got ancient historical precedents. 311 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, thousands of years millennia. Cast your memory back there, 312 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: as Van Morrison used to say, Uh, well did he? 313 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 2: I don't know that one? 314 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: He said, cast your memory back there. Lord, it's a 315 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: brown eyed girl. It's in that he says it. In 316 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: that song. 317 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: My god. 318 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 4: I do have to say, man, I heard that song 319 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 4: out in the world the other day and I commented 320 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 4: to the friend I was with that I really hate 321 00:18:58,960 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 4: that song. 322 00:18:59,760 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 3: Ye. 323 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: Do you like any Van Morrison songs? 324 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: Yes, I absolutely do. 325 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 4: That one in particular, though, has just been done so 326 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: to death that it doesn't sit well with me. 327 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 2: I just never need to hear it again. 328 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, Hotel California stoked every time 329 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 4: it comes up. Not sure why I feel so differently 330 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 4: about these two very overplayed songs. 331 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, but here we are. 332 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: Also, you know, there are more brown eyed girls alive 333 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: today than there are hotels in California, so that might 334 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: be part of it. 335 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: Definitely, don't bother fact checking that. 336 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I'd be pleased. Do I think my presence on the 337 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: spectrum is working? 338 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: There? Put your money or your mouth? Is I like it? So? 339 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: Okay, Look, let's go to our friends at the World 340 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: Intellectual Property Organization or WEEPO. I don't know if they 341 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: think that's as funny as. 342 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: We do, but if you choose, you could pronounce it. 343 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go. 344 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: You want to make out the voice? Got to do 345 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: the voice. 346 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: You gotta do the voice. So trademarks, as our friends 347 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: of Whippo say, they do date back for millennia, but 348 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: we cannot currently date their origins with precision. And they're 349 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: talking about identification marks and the dude, they go so 350 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: deep into this. Can you give us a quote from 351 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: Whippo directly? 352 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: Boy? Can I ever? 353 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 4: Whippo says the following Some of the earliest forms of 354 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 4: identification of Marx date from prehistory. For instance, the Lascal 355 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: Cave paintings in France show bull drawings with marks on them. 356 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 4: Experts believe that people were using personal marks to claim 357 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 4: ownership of livestock long before literate societies. By the way, 358 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 4: Ben just got to interject here, that's also where the 359 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 4: idea of. 360 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: Brands comes from. 361 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: You know, you're branding something by literally burning a signature 362 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 4: mark of some kind into it with a hot iron 363 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 4: so that people know that it's yours, or people know 364 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 4: where it came from, which is another reason why it's 365 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 4: often a little bit confusing those differences and connections between 366 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 4: trademarks and brands. 367 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, don't touch that cow. That's 368 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: square circle, triangle, wavy line cow. Yeah. So this dates back, 369 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: this practice of branding. I love your point there, Noel, 370 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: This dates back about fifteen thousand years ago minimum. We 371 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: also show we also see rather that in the world 372 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: of Egyptian masonry. In ancient Egypt six thousand years ago, 373 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: you could see stonecutters branding their stuff, you know, like, hey, 374 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: this part of the pyramid, this block is from me Jeremy. 375 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: Just the super common name in. 376 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 4: Egypt mega common and a fine name, I might add, 377 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 4: and zipping a little bit forward in time to the 378 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 4: Middle Ages, trades people often used signs and marks to 379 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 4: distinguish goods, and this practice was sort of expanded to 380 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 4: become a mark of quality of certain goods and services. 381 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very effective for human psychology back then 382 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: as it is today. Right, we see that a trademark 383 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: exerts a lot of power on a consumer, right, the 384 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: idea being, what's our old troope. You get what you 385 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: pay for, right, So you may pay a little bit 386 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: more for the thing with the insignia you like, but 387 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: what you're really buying into is quality and durability. So 388 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: that's why you see water marks on fancy paper, that's 389 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: why you see I'll say it, that's why you see 390 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: insignia and branding on cars. 391 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. 392 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 4: And while you might pay less for like a Pento, 393 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 4: it's not going to last you as long as say 394 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 4: a BMW. 395 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: Yeah or Nova no Va. That's a joke. That's a 396 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: joke for is. 397 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 2: That a car joke? I don't think I got I 398 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: think that went went over my head. 399 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: Nova means doesn't go ah, So Anyway, the evidence suggests 400 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the very first piece of what we will call modern 401 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: trademark legislation, or the precedent of that, was passed in 402 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: England all the way back in twelve sixty six under 403 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: the reign of a guy named Henry who was the 404 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: third Henry and king of that tribal organization at the time. 405 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: Yes, King, our short King Henry the third. 406 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 4: I'm not sure what is how it was, but it 407 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 4: was a set of rules that were codified called the 408 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 4: assize of bread and when you see it on paper, 409 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 4: if you're a child like like we are, you'll you'll 410 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 4: dinner and ale. 411 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 2: Sorry, the ass size of bread and ale. Guys, I 412 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: gotta look up the word ass size. I need not 413 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: know this one is about. 414 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: It's a decree or an edict or it's a judicial inquest. 415 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: It's also hilarious because it is one space away from 416 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: being peak comedy. 417 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: Oh one percent. We're right on the edge of peak comedy. 418 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: So this noll from what you and I understand here, 419 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: this as size of bread and ale was really had 420 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: we had to. We would feel bad later if we 421 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: if we didn't, if we didn't grasp the moment. So uh, 422 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: this whole thing was a a regulatory move right. If 423 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: you've ever seen FCC regulations or FDA is a better comparison. 424 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: It's the idea of a state power saying we have 425 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: certain standards for public goods. How much should bread cost, 426 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: how much should it weigh, how what size should it be. 427 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: And maybe it shouldn't before of like poison or fingers. Yeah, 428 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: one would hope. 429 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 4: I actually think this is pretty forward thinking for twelve 430 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 4: sixty six. I don't think I realized that there was 431 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 4: this level of quality control in industry that early. 432 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a real spider man power and responsibility thing. 433 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: Because you get certain rights as a baker, you also 434 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: take on certain certain levels of accountability. So if you're 435 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: a baker in this time in twelve sixty six, when 436 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: this rolls out, you have to have a distinctive mark 437 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: on your bread, and that can show the public that 438 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: you make good bread. And if you don't make good bread, right, 439 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: if you've got dirty flower things like that, we will find 440 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: you the regulators. In theory, the regulators can protect the 441 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: public by identifying your poopy loaves. 442 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 4: So during the late part of the Middle Ages, the 443 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 4: law offices of Conrad Schernian specialized in intellectual property law, 444 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 4: has this to say. Laws began to develop to allow 445 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: enforcement of marks. These laws grew out of forgery, counterfeiting, 446 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: and fraud laws. But then in eighteen and oh three 447 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 4: the powers that be over in France passed another important 448 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 4: as size I guess or edict known as the Factory, 449 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 4: Manufacture and Workplace Act, which actually criminalized counterfeiting of somebody 450 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 4: else's mark, somebody else's seal, and passing it off as 451 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 4: your own. It also prohibited kind of talking smack about others, 452 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 4: like like slander law I guess early examples of that, 453 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 4: and as well as wrongfully using the name of certain 454 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: regions of production, which is still pretty enforced today, something 455 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 4: like this. That's why like Champagne can't be called Champagne 456 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 4: unless it's made in the sh Champagne region of France. 457 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 4: And there are other certain types of designations for things 458 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 4: like butter from like regions like Saxony and you know, 459 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 4: stuff like that. 460 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, we see similar things already, as you said today. 461 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: For instance, if you have Ohio on wei and it's 462 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: not experienced in Ohio, it's just sparkling depression. 463 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: That's good. 464 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: Ben I don't know. If it's good, all right, we'll 465 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: keep it. But so you're laying this out perfectly. Man. 466 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty seven, France is ahead of the game. 467 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: They institute the first comprehensive trademark system. This is the 468 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: Manufacturing Goods Mark Act. Obviously we're translating from France. This 469 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: set up a trademark deposit system and it said this 470 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: system this rupric for how to handle these things. Said, look, 471 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: we're going to recognize use based trade and we're going 472 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: to examine every new trademark based on trademarks that have 473 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: been registered before. England a little late to the game here. 474 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: It takes takes about a half a century to catch up. 475 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: It's nineteen oh five when they have their own version 476 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: of this. In eighteen sixty two, however, they passed the 477 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: Merchandise Marx Act, and that's the one that says, hey, 478 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: if you know something is counterfeit or you know something 479 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: is misleading, you can't mess with it. You can't be 480 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: associated with it. So first they punished people right for 481 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: selling Timu products or you know something. 482 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: By performing the five pains. 483 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: Shut out least, see how you filed it. Also, Max 484 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: just wanted to chime in on the chat and say 485 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: thank you for the Ohio slander. You're welcome, man. We 486 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: serve at the pleasure of the public. 487 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: Risen it up in Ohio. Oh wait, no, Ohio doesn't 488 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: have RIZ. I'm sorry. 489 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: I'm still confused by as it is scivity. Indeed, did 490 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: you mention the Trademark Registration Acts? No, but we absolutely 491 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: must I think we should. That happened in England in 492 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 4: eighteen seventy five and established a much more robust system 493 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 4: to register trademarks. 494 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: And I just wanted to add really quickly. 495 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: I think we may have mentioned this when we were 496 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 4: talking about patents and you know, equally copyrights and the 497 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 4: idea of brands is all of this stuff is developed 498 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 4: as a way to not like stifle creativity, to not 499 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 4: stifle innovation, because if people thought that their hard work 500 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 4: and creative time and effort was just going to be 501 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 4: stolen by somebody else, eventually, it would absolutely tamp down 502 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 4: on any innovation. 503 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: So these types of laws really came up out of necessity. 504 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, The idea is to incentivize innovation, right, And. 505 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: Maybe that's obvious. I just thought it was maybe. 506 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: I think it's huge to me. 507 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: I think it's cool that they recognize that, is what 508 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: I'm saying. 509 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: But it was a recognition of something that would ultimately 510 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: collapse society. You know, if no one was doing cool 511 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 4: things that would move society forward because they were afraid 512 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 4: they were just gonna get ripped off, then things would stagnate. 513 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and uh, being incredibly self involved. Let's fast 514 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: forward to the United States. That's where we live. Those 515 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: are the marks of which we trade. Uh, US say 516 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: you too. 517 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 4: It has its moments, It has its moments. 518 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: US A three out of five has its moments. Uh 519 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: wanted to give four stars, Kitty, that's a brutal rating. 520 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: Five give a help review for the whole of the 521 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: United States. 522 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: It's it's a tremendous experiment that continues today and we're 523 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: immensely privileged to be part of that. Uh. The first 524 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: federal statue. Do you like the diplomacy there? 525 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think. 526 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 4: I'm trying. I'm trying to bite my tongue a little bit. 527 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: It does have its moments here in the US of A. 528 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 4: But experiment is correct. 529 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So speaking of experimentation and taking ingredients from the 530 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: global thought of humans and bringing them back to your 531 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: own ideological kitchen. The US whipped up its own version 532 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: of trademark law. The first federal statute dealing with trademarks 533 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: occurs in eighteen seventy. The Supreme Court doesn't like it. 534 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: They smack Congress on the heinie. 535 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: That was the ip man, the ip evan, I'm right 536 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: on the bike, I love this is a character. 537 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Supreme Court says, look, the copyright clause 538 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: of the Constitution, Article one, Section eight, clause eight does 539 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: not give you, you, knuckleheads of Congress, this does not 540 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: give you the powers that you want. And then Congress 541 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: feels some type of way about this. They respond by 542 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: passing the Trade Mark Act of eighteen eighty one based 543 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: on the Commerce clause, and then the Supreme Court lets 544 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: them pass fast forward nineteen forty six. 545 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: That's a pretty significant fast forward, and. 546 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: It's a jump. It's a jump, for sure. And this 547 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: is where Congress passes the Lanham Act La Nham, which 548 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: is still sort of our go to way as a 549 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: country for understanding trademark issues today. 550 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 4: And in nineteen ninety five, another pretty significant jump, Congress 551 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 4: passed the Federal Trademark Dilution Act. Which protects some of 552 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 4: those famous trademarks we were just talking about, like the Walmarts, 553 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 4: the targets, the Apple computers of the world. Protects those 554 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 4: from uses that would serve to dilute that create distinctiveness 555 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: that comes along with a design or an idea like 556 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 4: that that has become associated very closely with a particular company. 557 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. More recently, Congress responded to a thing that 558 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: you and I have talked about on various shows with 559 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: our colleagues. Look, legislation always is outpaced by technology and innovation, 560 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: so legislation is therefore always reactive. We've joked about it before. 561 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: It's called cyber squatting, right. You see a new up 562 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: and coming business like shoefeet, and so you buy shoefeet 563 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: dot com and then you wait until the owners of 564 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: Shoefeet the company come to you and you sort of 565 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: ransom off that Internet domain. Congress fought against this with 566 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: the Anti Cyber Squatting Consumer Protection Act. 567 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 4: But we know that there are loopholes around stuff like this, 568 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 4: as evidenced by I think I mentioned on a recent 569 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 4: episode of Either This or Stuff that I want you 570 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 4: to know. There's a dude that was featured on NPR 571 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 4: piece who has made good money buying up domain names 572 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: associated with potential combinations of politicians who might go on 573 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 4: to run together for insert office here. You know, like 574 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 4: so that apparently is not fully protected by this anti 575 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 4: cyber squad and consumer protection acts. 576 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, to jump in real quick. 577 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: Uh. 578 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 3: One of the best hints we still have for Elder 579 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 3: Scroll six, which is what you know, thirteen years in 580 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 3: production now where all right take place is bethes the 581 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: number of years ago bought up like a ridiculous number 582 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 3: of just trademarks of like like elder. 583 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 2: Scrolls, this, this, this, this, because they're trying to avoid 584 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: that thing right there. 585 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, avoid the cyber squatting and Bethesda big fans get 586 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: at us. He huge Skyrim guys, by the ways. 587 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: Actually kind of jump in. 588 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 3: Have you guys ever played Dishonored before I finally picked 589 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 3: it up myself? 590 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 2: Wait, it is tremendous great, I'm not yet know that one. 591 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 4: I do have to say, though, Bethesda, fix your glitches, 592 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 4: get your house in order. I have yet to finish 593 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 4: Skyrim because I keep running into I keep running into issues. 594 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: Gave up a second time. 595 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 3: You just go to settings and crank it down like 596 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 3: one or two settings and it'll be fun. 597 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 4: No, no, no, it's not about difficulty. It's literally a quest 598 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 4: that won't let me progress. Oh yeah, and it's just 599 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 4: I'm just fed up and I'm at a point where 600 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 4: I've I'm past a reasonable save spot. It would cause 601 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 4: me to have to backtrack so far that I'm just 602 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 4: like sorry. I do love Bethesda, those so that's why 603 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 4: I'm saying, you know it with with with uh love 604 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 4: in my heart. Please fix your glitches. 605 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 3: I hate to just looking and say like, hey, Bethesa's 606 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: gets fixed by the motors. But if you look at 607 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: the mod and the mods, there's some really good patches 608 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: made by motors. 609 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: It's pretty good fixtures. 610 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: But on your platform and engagement anyway, Bethesda as three 611 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: inevitable stealth archers. Thank you for Skyrim. Also, you clearly 612 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: made all of us stealth archers. That's just how the 613 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: game works, Oh Paladin, all right for now? So such 614 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: an inside joke. Okay, So, folks, we talked in episode 615 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: one of this series about the advantages to a creator 616 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: for registering a trademark, for messing with the concept of 617 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: patents in general. We don't have to go too far 618 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: out down that road. Please tune in to our first episode. However, 619 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: we thought it would be important to get in front 620 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: of the next question you might be asking yourself, which is, 621 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: so this all sounds well and good guys, how do 622 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: I get a trademark? Also, after going through all this trouble, 623 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: can I lose that trademark? 624 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit of a use it or lose 625 00:36:59,120 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 2: it kind of question. 626 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 4: And with the help of attorney Brian Farcas, who specializes 627 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 4: in these matters, we can shed some light on this. 628 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 4: He mentions that they're the common law trademark rights are 629 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 4: for just simply using that mark, whether it be a name, 630 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 4: whether it be a logo, in the practice of a 631 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 4: business commerce within a particular community. And this is totally 632 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 4: fine for a lot of folks at a certain level 633 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 4: of success or notoriety, Right. 634 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. This is something you can do largely online. 635 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: Right. 636 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: If you file an application on the USPTO website or 637 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: USTO as we like to say, then you're gonna hear 638 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: from him in about ninety days, three months or so on, 639 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: and the examining forces there will right back to you 640 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: and they'll say, okay, they won't immediately, you know, smack 641 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: you down. They are right, they will ip man you immediately. 642 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: They will say okay, good to go, or more likely, 643 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: they'll say you need to admit some corrections, right, here's improvement. Yeah, yeah, 644 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: they'll they'll help you edit it. Registration becomes simple in 645 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: that regard, if everything works and the wind is at 646 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: your back. However, your your pitch for a trademark can 647 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 1: be challenged, and that's where things get much more complicated. 648 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: You know, you might say, hey, I've got a great idea. 649 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 5: For I'm trying to think of a famous streng Oh 650 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 5: I've got a great idea for my Apple company, and 651 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 5: it's a it's a very simple drive of an Apple. 652 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: And then a certain tech giant might say, ah, we 653 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: already called did on that one. So then you have 654 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: to go to court. 655 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 4: Or a certain group of mop topped Brits might also 656 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 4: have issues with this use. I'm really excited to get 657 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 4: into that in a very near future episode, so Farcas 658 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 4: Brian Farcas, Attorney at law, kind of breaks down the 659 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 4: process of registration thusly. He describes it as allowing your 660 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 4: business to essentially scare away your competitors your mark. He 661 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 4: says will be listed on the USPTO's Register of Trademarks, 662 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 4: which allows you to use that are in the circle symbol, 663 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 4: and will also include it in a registry that is 664 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 4: used to search pre existing trademarks, because that's another part 665 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 4: of the process. If you're a big company and you're 666 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 4: considering making a trademark, you have to pay your internal 667 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 4: legal team or outside council to perform this search, which 668 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 4: is not like, you know, rocket science. And that's because 669 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 4: of all of these ways that the us PTO have 670 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 4: made this stuff accessible. 671 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we run into this as well in our 672 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: strange careers when like we develop a lot of shows 673 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: outside of outside of this, and one of the first 674 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: things we have to tell people when we're helping build 675 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: wonderful explorations is to do their homework. Check on the 676 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: idea of your show name, make if it sounds that great, 677 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: make sure someone else doesn't already have that show name, 678 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: because that avoids a lot of a lot of pain 679 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: points down the road. Look, can you should always do 680 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: your homework, do careful research to your point nol before 681 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: you even pitch a trademark. And look, we're gonna be honest, 682 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: it can be very expensive to have a trademark, especially 683 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: if it's challenged. You can go to Toe's Toe's own 684 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: website and see the long list of fees they have 685 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 1: for filing electronically versus filing via paper. It's a couple 686 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: one hundred bucks or five hundred bucks, depend on what 687 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: you do. But then there are other fees that get 688 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: tacked on, So we're not going to go into the 689 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: weeds of that. Just please recognize there's a reason folks 690 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: have built their entire careers on knowing what's going on. 691 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: The legal expertise. 692 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 2: Is key here. Bureaucracy is quite a beast to tackle. 693 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 4: So just because your trademark is registered, though, it doesn't 694 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 4: mean that you own it in perpetuity. 695 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 2: David H. 696 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 4: Schwartz, another attorney specializing in this kind of thing, says 697 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 4: that it requires constant vigilance to defend and protect that trademark. 698 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 4: The moment you let your guard down, he says, there's 699 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 4: a chance that someone else might swoop in and use 700 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 4: your trademark without permission. This unauthorized use could lead to 701 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 4: confusion among customers, and we can association between the trademark 702 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 4: and the company or presents. This is what we've previously 703 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 4: described as brand dilution. 704 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and love this term that we teased earlier. 705 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: When something becomes genericized, it can be a big blow 706 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: to the company who owns that trademark. Right now, for instance, 707 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: we say, instead of searching for something on the Internet, 708 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: we say google it, right, or we say xeroxx something 709 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: if you're making a copy or people used to say that, 710 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: and this is a big concern. Trademark dilution occurs when 711 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: you see other forces whatever they may be, using this 712 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: in an unauthorized way. It doesn't matter whether or not 713 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: the products are actually competing. So for example, if Elon 714 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: Musk got a wild hair and decided to replace all 715 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:02,439 Speaker 1: the Tesla car branding with the Nike swoosh, that would 716 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: be trademark delusion or something like that, because he's not 717 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: selling shoes, but he is confusing consumers, and that might 718 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: weaken the unique association between the trademark and the actual 719 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: company that owns it. 720 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and can I just add to that, genera size 721 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 4: is like a verb. And the term that I was 722 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 4: excited about and I wasn't familiar with is the noun, 723 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 4: which is genericide. Yeah, someone had to have been being 724 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 4: clever with that one. 725 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 3: It sounds way darker though it really does dark, but 726 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 3: it sounds like war crime stuff. 727 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: It was. It was clearly a portmanteau created by a 728 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: person who also created a trademark and then got mad 729 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: when it got swiped. Right, That's why they it's such 730 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: a high stakes word. But it's a nice word. We 731 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: love this language. There are ways to protect your trademark. 732 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: Of course, you can register it. You can also so 733 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: like you said, Noel, beautifully put use it or lose it. 734 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: Use your trademark, consistently, monitor for infringements and take swift 735 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: action against those if they occur. And then, of course 736 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 1: uncle Sam wants is viig so here in the US, 737 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: remember you need to renew your trademark registration. It's it's 738 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,439 Speaker 1: different from a patent or a copyright. We'll explore those 739 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: in a later series. Because get this, a trademark does 740 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: not have a concrete, defined expiration date. And here's what 741 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: this reminds me of before we get to know policy 742 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: wonk about this stuff, it reminds me Noll of the 743 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: tricky burden that milk expiration dates put on consumers here. 744 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 2: Right, is it a sell by date? 745 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 4: Or it's like an expiration date and what's the wiggle 746 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 4: room on either side? 747 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, man, that's unfair. Or why do I 748 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: have to purposely like smell this and do a little 749 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: experiment every time I'm not ready for my straight up 750 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: black coffee. 751 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 4: Well, it can also depend on like the temperature you 752 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 4: keep your fridge, you know. I mean, I think it's 753 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 4: to cover their butts more than anything. Is to say 754 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 4: it's gonna be fresh, definitely under whatever conditions before this 755 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 4: particular day. But it doesn't mean that on the next 756 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 4: day after that date it immediately spoils. 757 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,720 Speaker 2: That's just not how science works. 758 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: And there's that whole thing about al capone, which is 759 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: unproven but maybe worth a ridiculous history episode in the future. 760 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: Let's write it down. The idea is that al capone 761 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: is the reason expiration dates are on milk products or 762 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: on like bottles of milk. 763 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 4: Well, because you like strong armed the USDA waved up 764 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 4: menace them with a bat. 765 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: I mean, he was definitely you know, he was a 766 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: narco of his day. He apparently, the story goes, this 767 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: is unproven. The story goes that his niece became extremely 768 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: ill from drinking expired milk, and so he put his own. 769 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: It became personal to him, and he lobbied aggressively to 770 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: get some kind of expiration dates put on milk. The 771 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: milk lobby or the dairy industry overall big Parma as 772 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: we like to call them. Yeah, they've got some vinegar 773 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: with him too. So the story is again proven that 774 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 1: due to Capone's intervention, we ended up with the compromise 775 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: of the cell by date. But I go, I don't 776 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: want to wake up, you know, and try to put 777 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: some milk in my coffee and feel like I'm taking 778 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: a gamble, you know what I mean? 779 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, you don't. 780 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 4: And in generally I think this still by dates work 781 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 4: as advertised, But it's up to you to determine how 782 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 4: far past that are you. 783 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: Willing to go? Yeah, yeah, what are you gonna roll 784 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: those dice? Right? So, anyhow, because the trademark does not 785 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: have a concrete expiration date, that means technically possibly a 786 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: trademark can last forever. We're getting some of this from 787 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: the legal practice of Michael E. Condudas and says, look, 788 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: a trademark can last for infinity as long as it 789 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: is used on a regular basis and renewed once per decade. 790 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, And like I said, we're gonna get into a 791 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 4: really really interesting and telling case of these types of 792 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 4: trademarks disputes. It's sort of the delicate dance that is 793 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:39,280 Speaker 4: sort of protecting one's trademark. A fascinating case that lasted 794 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 4: quite a long time between Apple Computers and the Beatles 795 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 4: Company Apple Core, and it's really it's one for the 796 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 4: it's one for the history books, and we're going to 797 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 4: talk about it, I think in two episodes time. 798 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about that very soon. We 799 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: love the ridiculosity of this. That supportman too, I have 800 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: for the speed and direction mark which something becomes ridiculous. 801 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you, blush you. This is part 802 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: two of our ongoing exploration of intellectual property. We hope 803 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 1: you join us very soon for some upcoming episodes related 804 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: to this and related to indeed other ridiculous things we've 805 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: been We've been cooking a lot here in the new year, 806 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: and we can't thank you enough, fellow ridiculous historians, for 807 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,439 Speaker 1: joining us. However, there is one person we can thank 808 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 1: enough on air. That is our super producer and research 809 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: associate for this episode and this series, mister Max Williams. 810 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 2: Thanks Max, keep thinking lit more more there. It is huge. 811 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 4: Thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme A. J. 812 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,320 Speaker 4: Bahamas Jacobs, the Puzzler, Jonathan Strickland, the Quizzer. 813 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: Yes, Professor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, the rude dudes at 814 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime. We're just talking with them a little bit 815 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: off air. If you like our show, you'll love theirs. Thanks, 816 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: of course also to everybody who came up with a 817 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: great idea and dealt with all this bureaucracy to get 818 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 1: it into the world. 819 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,400 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. 820 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 821 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.