1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: I'm constantly making a six. You're constantly learning, learning on 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 2: these small failures so it avoids the big, big. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 3: Big miss. 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: And so for me, the way I approach risk is 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: encourage an organization to embrace innovation, to embrace change, constantly 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: try things, and actually make it okay to fail, Actually 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: celebrate those failures, actually talk about those things of what 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: we learned and what we're going to go do about it. 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Bob Pittman. Welcome to Math and Magic. Stories 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 3: from the Frontiers and Marketing. On this episode, we're going 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 3: deep with someone who has the Midas touch. These transformed brands, 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: one after the other and company after company, moving from 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 3: marketer to CEO. He's created enormous shareholder returns and we're 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: going to dig into the hows today with Terang Amin, 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 3: Chairman of the board and CEO at ELF Beauty. Terang 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: was born in Kenya moved to the US as a child. 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: Growing up, he helped his dad run the family owned 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 3: hotel in Alexandria, Virginia, and went on to Duke University 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 3: for undergrad and his MBA. Like many great execs, His 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: training ground was PNG, and he spent time running brands 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: for Pong and others before rising to his first CEO 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 3: job in twenty eleven. He's a purpose driven, passionate leader 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: who has been driving performance for over thirty years. He's 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 3: committed to diversity and also to disruption and credits Boat 26 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 3: for his remarkable success and to put that in perspective, 27 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 3: he has grown the Elf Beauty business five x since 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 3: arriving as CEO. Terang, Welcome, Well, thank you for having me. 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: I want to dig into your story and it's fascinating story, 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 3: but first I want to do you in sixty seconds. 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: You ready sounds great? Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Early? 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: Ryme, nightdowl early riser? West coast or East coast, West coast, 33 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: city or country city, beach or mountains, beach, coffee or tea, tea, 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: books or movies, movies, cook or eat out, cook, call 35 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: or text call. Work life balance or work life integration. 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 3: Integration. Okay, it's about to get harder. All time favorite 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: music artist, you two, favorite TV show Seinfeld, smartest person 38 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 3: you know, Fred Cohen, childhood hero Mohamma Gandhi. Favorite sport 39 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: to watch Basketball, Favorite movie shash Ank Redemption, most important 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 3: piece of advice you ever got, lean in, favorite city, 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: San Francisco, favorite place to visit Africa, and the final one, 42 00:02:54,760 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: secret talent gardening. Okay, great, let's jump in now. Know 43 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 3: this is going to be a surprise, But you're actually 44 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: not the first guest who grew up in their family motel. 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: Shaji Vishram, the founder of Happy Baby, the organic baby 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 3: food company, grew up in the family motel and Alabama 47 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: Rooms one twenty three, and like you, she said, it 48 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: taught her so much about life and business. So I 49 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 3: am fascinated by this story. So can you paint the 50 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: picture of that experience for you? Growing up in a motel, 51 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: working all the time with your family, That was. 52 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: A pretty formative experience for me. So when I was fourteen, 53 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: we sold our house, took every penny we had, and 54 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: we bought our first hotel on Route one in Alexandria, Virginia. 55 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: We moved right into the manager's apartment, and our business 56 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: model as a family was we'd find these distressed properties, 57 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: we'd fix them up. We're good operators, and we kept 58 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: building from there. You did everything. If the maze didn't 59 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: show up, you made the rooms you rented, the rooms 60 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: you renovated. It was such an important experience for me. 61 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: Probably the most important is how you treat people. Because 62 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: there were small motels or more on the budget side, 63 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: we didn't have like high wages or other things, so 64 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: it really came down to how did you motivate people 65 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: who were oftentimes hourly and how did you incent kind 66 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: of our managers over time in terms of you know, 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: we had a model that if they hit certain criteria, 68 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: we'd help finance their own property. So it was a 69 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: great leg up and a way for them to really 70 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: change their families' lives as well. I had a pretty 71 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: classical career after that and large consumer goods, but I 72 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: tell people everything I know about cash flow, economic profit, 73 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: how you treat people really came from building our motel 74 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 2: business up with my dad, and I did that from 75 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 2: fourteen to about my mid twenties. Many many years later, 76 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: I still pull from those experiences. My gosh, we could 77 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: probably go on the entire podcast for everything I learned 78 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: to the motels. 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 3: In the nineteen nineties, I was on the board of 80 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 3: a company called HFS which had a number of brands 81 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: for motels, and I was always struck with that over 82 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 3: representation in the ownership families. Why is that? 83 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: You know, as you mentioned in your opening, we were 84 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: immigrants from East Africa, and there are a number of immigrants, 85 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: particularly when Idiamine came to power in Uganda and kicked 86 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: all the Indians out, Kenya, other countries that immigrated to 87 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 2: the US, and a lot of times where they kind 88 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: of left behind whatever their original profession was or their 89 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: business people. The motels were actually a really good model 90 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: because with a limited amount of capital you could get alone. 91 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: You could then actually not only live there, but earn 92 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: a living and be able to go from there. So 93 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: we're in India. Our ethnicities Gadratis, and a lot of 94 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: Gadratis got into the motel business. I think it's still 95 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 2: a huge proportion of the motels in the US are 96 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: owned by Gadratis. And like any immigrant family, immigrant community, 97 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: when someone gets into it, others learn that there's something 98 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: there and so I'm not unique in having that experience. 99 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: There are number of Ztratis in the US that also 100 00:05:58,360 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: had their start in these motels. 101 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: Did you ever think about staying in the business, You know, I. 102 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: Didn't and my parents didn't want me to either. There 103 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 2: was a real focus, particularly drive the community on education, 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: and so my parents were very set and I was 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: very set on going to university, going to grad school, 106 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: figuring out what I really wanted to do. And so 107 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: I would say it never was an aspiration as much 108 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: as I learned from it, I was definitely interested in 109 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 2: wanting to explore the world and do different things. 110 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 3: You were obviously a good student. You went off to 111 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: Duke for undergrad and grad school too, and you have 112 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: an interesting story when you applied to the graduate School 113 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 3: of Business when you were still an undergrad and they 114 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: told you you had no business experience. 115 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: How did you use that motel experience to become that 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: objection the dean of admissions. Since I was an undergrad 117 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: and done a lot of leadership things at Duke, you know, 118 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 2: you told me like, no, we don't accept people straight 119 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: out of undergrad. You need to go work. I basically, 120 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: I think, in about twenty minutes, described what my work 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: experience was in the motels, and it must have been 122 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 2: persuasive enough for him to let me in a great story. 123 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 3: A stunning number of marketing focused CEOs got their startup PNG. 124 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: Actually surprising number of people that are on math and 125 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: magic got their startup P ANDNG. Why is that such 126 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: a fertile ground. 127 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: I actually went to p ANDNG almost by accident. I 128 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: did my undergraduate major in international policy. I thought I 129 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: was going to go do my MBA, to go work 130 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: at the World Bank, and then my name showed up 131 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: on some close lists for Proker and Gamble. To be 132 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: honest with you, I didn't even know what it was, 133 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: but what intrigued me about it was this notion that 134 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: in your mid twenties you could go run a brand, 135 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: and that really appealed to me of the ability to 136 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: be able to really get into every aspect of the business, 137 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: the whole aspect of consumers and understanding them, being able 138 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: to translate insights into action, and so I thought it 139 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: was a really great experience for getting a great overview 140 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: of almost every functional area moving a business forward, what 141 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: the brand stood for, and so I really loved my 142 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: time at PNG. It definitely was a great training ground, 143 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: as many others have experienced. 144 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 3: One of your first big successes, I guess was a 145 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: p ANDNG when you were part of the team that 146 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: relaunched Panteen, taking it from a I think the numbers 147 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: are right. Of fifty million dollar haircare brand to a 148 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: two billion dollar global market leader. How did that happen? 149 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: That was a really formative experience because I spent eight 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: years on Canteen. 151 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: It was my beauty. 152 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: I did almost every possible role in that business. Panteen 153 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 2: it existed for fifty years. It was almost on its 154 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: last legs. P ANDNG had gotten it through the Richardson 155 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: Vicks acquisition in the mid eighties, and by the time 156 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: I got on in nineteen ninety one, it still only 157 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: had fifty million dollars of sales, and there was one 158 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: failed relaunch after another. But the core of the brand 159 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: was this intersection between health and beauty, and I remember 160 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: we had a line we came out of hair so 161 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: healthy it shines, And like I think many great businesses, 162 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: it was the timing of a lot of things coming 163 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,239 Speaker 2: together at the same time. These incredible flowing hair shots. 164 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: We put our two and one technology, put a conditioner 165 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: on it, did a lot of fundamentals, and it just 166 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: took off in the early nineties. 167 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 3: Long straight hair is in fashion. 168 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: But the best part of the Canteen story I tell 169 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: people all the time is we probably hit a wall 170 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: at least four times on that business where you would 171 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: grow really fast and the kind of plateau out and 172 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 2: the growing fast and platau out is that ability of 173 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: discovering what was aspirational yet achievable for consumers and how 174 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: we continue to pivot that brand. But it was a 175 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: great experience, including help in take it global. 176 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: You know, it's an interesting point you mean about hitting 177 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 3: sort of the plateau, and I think all of us 178 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: have built products. You know, you go grow, grow, grow, 179 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 3: and then it slows down. How did you hit those? 180 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: It's interesting to me because very few people get over those. 181 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: That sort of is now the new high. Can you 182 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: give me an example of a couple and just tell 183 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 3: us how you got over it? 184 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: I mean, heck, I'll even give you an example. In 185 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: my current role at elf Beauty, very fast growing brand 186 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, we hit a wall and we couldn't 187 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: figure out it. First, We're like, well is that our 188 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: value equation? It's something wrong with the product. And what 189 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 2: we realized is a bunch of mega influencer brands came 190 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: into our space, the Kylie Jenner's, the Fentees, the Buddha Beautyes, 191 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: And at first I thought our value proposition would insulate us, 192 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 2: but we found that no, they were taking all the 193 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: attention for consumers, and we weren't spending enough on the brand. 194 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: So I think the most important thing is to step 195 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: back and really get into where did we go wrong? 196 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: And it starts first and foremost with myself. I remember 197 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 2: get in front of our leadership team and saying, these 198 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: are my beliefs, and let me tell you where we 199 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: went wrong on each of these areas. We used to 200 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: brag that our value was so great we didn't have 201 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: to spend money on marketing, and I was dead wrong 202 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 2: on that. We were getting lost in all the noise 203 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: we'd gotten into retail stores. Yet many of those retail 204 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: stores were in malls that would never see a better day. 205 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: And then we basically got distracted. And so I think 206 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: the first thing was really I always tell people we 207 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: can face any reality, you just got to know what 208 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: the reality is. So I think the first step is 209 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: really getting a better understanding of what's what are the 210 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: drivers or what's not working, and then making bold moves. 211 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: I remember it was painful, but back in twenty nineteen, 212 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: on the same day we shut down all of our 213 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: retail stores we sent We had twenty six stores, spent 214 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: twenty six leaders to every store to let people know 215 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: what was going on and why we paid more than 216 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: market for severance. But it was still painful letting two 217 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: hundred associates go. But then we took the sixteen million 218 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: dollars or spending those stores, and we doubled down on 219 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: our digital business and we saw almost immediate results. 220 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 3: So I would say two things. 221 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: One, understand what the reality is, and then make sure 222 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: you're taking decisive action and not just wishing that things 223 00:11:59,160 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: will get better. 224 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: You think it's hard, but I see this in business, 225 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: and I'm seeing it watching others, certainly seeing it with myself. 226 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: Hard for people to sort of own up to it's 227 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: not working, we've got a problem. 228 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a natural human tendency to wish 229 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: for that it's going to get better. I feel like 230 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: that's an important role for a leader because others see it. 231 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: People in your organization will know when something's not working, 232 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: and they want leaders who own up to it. That 233 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: basically say hey guys, this isn't great. Let me tell 234 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: you where I believe I went wrong, let me tell 235 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: you what I'm doing about it, and it then role 236 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: models others to be able to step up and say, Okay, 237 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with saying where have we failed and 238 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: what do we have to do about it? 239 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 3: And I think it brings the team together. I'm going 240 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: to go back a little bit. You went on to 241 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: some big successes at Clorox after P and G, and 242 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: you got your first CEO shot. How did you make 243 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 3: the jump to CEO? You were obviously doing great with 244 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: the brands, great marketer, et cetera. But that's a big 245 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: jump to CEO. 246 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that really helped me 247 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: throughout my career is I started in marketing and then 248 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: I went over to more of a general managed role 249 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 2: than I went back deeper into marketing than before my 250 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: first CEO role. I was a general manager over three 251 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 2: of the divisions at Clorox, So I had a good 252 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: combination of going deep in a particular area and then 253 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: going broad and learning the other functional areas. And so 254 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: I felt by the time I was GM of Clorox 255 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 2: businesses Kingsford Charcoal, Hitting Valley Ranch dressings, a fresh step 256 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: in litter. They were pretty autonomous. They had their own 257 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,119 Speaker 2: supply chain, they had their own way of kind of distribution, 258 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: and so I felt like it was a good training 259 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 2: ground for me to really make sure I was adept 260 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: at the different functional areas, but more importantly, continue to 261 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: hone my leadership skills. And so when my first CEO 262 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: opportunity came up, it was a small company called Shift Nutrition, 263 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: it was a publicly traded company, private equity backed, I 264 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: felt well prepared. I knew the areas that I could go, 265 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: and particularly in terms of like how we build the team. 266 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: My professional background is I'm absolutely passionate about building brands. 267 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: The best way in how you build brands is you 268 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: lead the innovation in the category. But what I love 269 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: doing the most is assembling these high performance teams. I 270 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: always bragged that in thirty four years of being in 271 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: the consumer space, I've never had a business we haven't 272 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: grown multiples of the category. And I always attributed that 273 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: back to the team and the culture that we create, 274 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: and so that gave me a lot of confidence to 275 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: jump in and take my first ro. 276 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: I'll brag on you for a second here. You grew 277 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 3: that enterprise value from one hundred and ninety million to 278 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: one point five billion in just a couple of years. 279 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: So obviously got a big success there, but you moved into, 280 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: as you said, a public company. You know, part of 281 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 3: the CEO job is running the business. The other parts 282 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: dealing with shareholders A doubt in your background, you've had 283 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: a lot of training on dealing with the investors. How 284 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 3: did you learn that side of the business. 285 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: Well, it definitely was a pretty steep learning curve. I 286 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: remember my first earnings call it shift nutrition. I said something. 287 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: I had gotten a stat from one of our team 288 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: members and it was wrong, and I had to issue 289 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: I think, an okay on what I said wrong. But 290 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: there's no hesitancy in terms of being transparent of like, 291 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: you know that was the wrong numbers. I just told 292 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: you here's what it is. So I would say, you know, 293 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: from that rough start, the thing that's helped me the 294 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: most is I love being a CEO of a public company. 295 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: A lot of people don't, but I love it because 296 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: there's one hundred percent transparency. The internal story and the 297 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: external story have to be the same one, and I 298 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: think that interaction with investors and others makes you sharper 299 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: in terms of what are people getting, what are people 300 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: not getting? What is that narrative? I'd say The second 301 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: thing that's been most important is some people spend too 302 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,359 Speaker 2: much time on the public company thing and managing investor relations. 303 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: I have always had the discipline of I will never 304 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: let a quarter get in the way of our long 305 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: term focus and strategy, and then also constrain the time 306 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: where you know you can take a life of its own. 307 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: I give investor relations two days a quarter, one day 308 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: in prepping for what the earnings release and the narrative 309 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 2: and talking with investors, and then maybe a second day 310 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: to do a conference or some investor relations. 311 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: I feel some. 312 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: Of my peers as CEO spend in an order amount 313 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: of time on that part of the business, and I 314 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: think if you're spending too much time on that part, 315 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: it's getting in the way of where you really need 316 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: to focus on, which is the team and your strategy. 317 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 3: More of Math and Magic right after this quick break, 318 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: welcome back to Math and Magic. Let's hear more from 319 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: my conversations with terrag Amm. We had a real success 320 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 3: and then you made them move to ELF. Why did 321 00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: you make the move? 322 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: We had a great run at Shift. We ended up 323 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: selling the company to Recabin Kyser. I then took a 324 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: few months off and I looked at a lot of 325 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: different businesses, and I'll tell you my path to ELF 326 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: was a series of fortunate accidents. I was asked to 327 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: take a meeting to see this private company that was 328 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: going to be for sale, and at first I said, no, 329 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: I'm not interested in color cosmetics. There are too many brands, 330 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: too low barriers of entry. It really wasn't interested in 331 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 2: the category. But I also have an adage that says 332 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: never hurts to have a conversation, So under that rule, 333 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: I said all right, I'll take the meeting and instantly 334 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: fell in love with the business. Actually, today's my eleventh 335 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: anniversary of bing Ceol. 336 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 3: Congratulations, thank you, so. 337 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: A little bit over eleven years ago I took that 338 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: first meeting and at that time the company was already 339 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: ten years old. And what I loved about the story 340 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: was the company was founded by a father and son entrepreneurs. 341 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: So I tend to be attractive to other entrepreneurs and founders, 342 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: and I loved their story. Alan Shama, the father, wanted 343 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: to go into business with his son Joey. They started 344 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 2: studying what categories could they disrupt, and they couldn't figure 345 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: out why did people charge so much? Money in cosmetics. 346 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: They had a lot of friends that were doing business 347 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: with the Dollar Channel, Dollar General Family Dollar, and so 348 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: they said, what could we do that we could sell 349 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 2: for a dollar? And Alan will tell me many times trying, 350 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: I don't know as many things as you do, but 351 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: I know how to buy a shirt for two dollars 352 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: and sell it for four. And that novice approach. They 353 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: completely turned cosmetics upside down because their original business model 354 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 2: was if the Dollar Channel was the retailer for a dollar, 355 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 2: they're going to buy it for me each piece for 356 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 2: fifty cents. I'm going to have to figure out how 357 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: to make it for thirty five cents. And they figured 358 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 2: it out. Everyone thought they were crazy at the time, 359 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: like you couldn't sell cosmetics for a dollar. And of course, 360 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: what I love about many entrepreneurs stories is you always 361 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 2: have to pivot. They then went to the Dollar Channel. 362 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: A Dollar Channel said no, we're not in interested, and 363 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: they're like, what wait, we put all this effort in, 364 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: what do you mean you're not interested? And Joey meanwhile 365 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: had gotten one of their eyeliner pencils to an editor 366 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: at Glamour and he said, oh my gosh, I can't 367 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: believe this is a dollar. I would love to write 368 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: about it, but you have to be in distribution. She's like, 369 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: you know, even if you had a website. And so 370 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: in two thousand and four, predating the iPhone, they started 371 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: a website called islipspace dot com selling cosmetics over the 372 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: internet for one dollar. Like I said, everyone thought they 373 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 2: were crazy. You couldn't sell cosmetics for a dollar. You 374 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: certainly could make money over the internet at a buck each, 375 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 2: but they figured it out. So that initial story of 376 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: how disruptive they were really appealed to me. I love 377 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 2: the digitally native roots, I love the value orientation. But 378 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: then what I saw was real potential in terms of 379 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: what we could do. They had just gotten into target. 380 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: They were highly productive in target, but they weren't in 381 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: distribution anywhere else. And so I love the story so 382 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: much I decided to jump in and co invest with 383 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 2: the private equity company and we bought the company back 384 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen. 385 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: Wow. Well, just I'm just going to put some context 386 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: for everyone listening today is you have taken ELF from 387 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 3: two hundred million in revenue over a billion, and your 388 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 3: stock has gone from seventeen dollars to two hundred dollars, 389 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 3: five x revenue growth, ten x stock growth. Pretty remarkable 390 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 3: performance coming out of that, and I want to dig 391 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 3: a little more into it, and I'll come to it, 392 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 3: but I want to sort of ask you a little bit, 393 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 3: because it keeps coming up here is your career is 394 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: filled with risky decisions. How do you think about risk? 395 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: It was funny my first CEO role the pe firm 396 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: that hired me. I remember it was the last dinner 397 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: where whether I was going to get the job or not. 398 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: They basically were like, oh, we looked at your background 399 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: and we don't like that you haven't had any big 400 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: public failures. 401 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: And at first I was a little confused. 402 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: I was like what, and they're like, yeah, I know, 403 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: you've had a lot of success, and we like our 404 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: CEOs to have some big stumble. We feel it makes 405 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: some hungrier for what we do. I asked them, I said, okay, 406 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: do you mean to give you the flippant answer or 407 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: the real answer? They said, well, now that you say that, 408 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: do both, and I saorry the flippant answers don't make 409 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: me apologize for not being a loser, and they loved it. 410 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: I feel like I had the job right then, And 411 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: I said, but if you want the real answer, if 412 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: you ask me what mistakes I've made, I would respond, 413 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: since this morning, I'm constantly making a six. You're constantly learning. 414 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 2: So what ends up happening is you're learning on these 415 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: small failures, so it avoids the big, big. 416 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: Big miss. 417 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: And so for me, the way I approach risk is 418 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 2: encourage an organization to embrace innovation, to embrace change, constantly 419 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: try things, and actually make it okay to fail, actually 420 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: celebrate those failures, actually talk about those things of what 421 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: we learned and what we're going to go do about it. 422 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: And so I think some people, when it comes to risk, 423 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: are trying to mitigate every possible thing that can go wrong. 424 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 2: And like I said, I think that's a fallacy. I 425 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: think really paying attention and focusing on what could really 426 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: send us sideways. Let's focus on those few things. But otherwise, 427 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: let's encourage people to keep moving forward, keep trying things, 428 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: and learn from them so we can continue to innovate. 429 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 3: That's great advice and a great perspective. I've always loved 430 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 3: the folks who say success and failure are the same thing. 431 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 3: They're stepping stones. One you learn more from us, right, 432 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 3: which is the failure. It seems like a very big 433 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 3: part of who you are as CEO is your commitment 434 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it begins at the top. 435 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about that commitment to 436 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 3: diversity and how it helps your company and your business 437 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: and how purpose driven separates you from others. 438 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: It starts first with when we bought the company, this 439 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: intention of we want to reflect the community we serve. 440 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: So I'm really proud from our employee base. Our employee 441 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 2: base is seventy four percent women, and I think almost 442 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: seventy five percent gen Z and millennial forty four percent diverse. 443 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: We're very intentional of like, let's make sure we're reflecting 444 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: the people that we're serving. There was no DEI program 445 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: of quotas. There was just this intention of let's be 446 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: crystal clear of who are we serving, who's our community, 447 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: and how do we have people that reflected. It's one 448 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: of our biggest competitive advantages because we don't have to 449 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: do focus groups, we don't have to go do a 450 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 2: bunch of research. Our employees are the people that we're serving. 451 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: They have incredible insights and incredible knowledge and ability to 452 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: move forward, but we didn't want it to stop with 453 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 2: our employees. I remember when we went were decided to 454 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: go public. You know, I want to have a board 455 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: that also reflects the people that we're serving and more importantly, 456 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 2: has real diversity of thought that can really push our thinking. 457 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: My view of the board is, not only do they 458 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: responsibility shareholders, but it's a total waste of time if 459 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 2: you're not getting the smartest people you know, with very 460 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: different backgrounds helping push management teams on things that we're 461 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: not seeing. And so our stats on our board standpoint 462 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: is I think we're one of only two companies now 463 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: out of forty one hundred that has a board that's 464 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 2: seventy eight percent women and over forty four percent diverse. 465 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: And it's more than the stats. 466 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: It's the different experience that say bring, the different thought 467 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: processes that really just help me and the team. 468 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,239 Speaker 1: You know. 469 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: Another big part of what you do is as a disruptor. 470 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: Clearly it's part of your culture. How have you built 471 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: that into the culture and how have you harnessed it 472 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 3: for growth? 473 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: I think the spirit of disruption for us has been 474 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: there from the very beginning, and I think, like many 475 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 2: digitally native businesses. There is definitely a culture of testing 476 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: and learning. Let's go try things, let's put it online, 477 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: see what happens, and let's get those signals from our 478 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: community and consumers what they respond to. But I think 479 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: the other thing is the team, And importantly it's not 480 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: just the team composition, but the culture put them in. 481 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 2: Where a culture of high performance teamwork, where you building 482 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 2: passion relationships, You're giving each other feedback, you have a 483 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: lot of mutual accountability, makes it a safe place to 484 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 2: disrupt and try things. And then then I think once 485 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: you start disrupting, you continue to disrupt because one leads 486 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: to the other and that becomes the norm. 487 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: You know. 488 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: One of the things we do to be able to 489 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: encourage that as well is all the way to our 490 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: compensation system. It was very important to me, almost going 491 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: back to my motality is I saw the power of 492 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 2: owning something. So I insisted both at SHIFT and ELF, 493 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: every employee has to be a shareholder. It was a 494 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: big fight. When I remember I first got to SHIFT, 495 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: They're like, you know the private equity was like, no, 496 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: that's not our model. We only give equity to the 497 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: top team. And I'm like, well, well give me performance 498 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: incentives from my equity, so we can give equity to everyone. 499 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: And I saw the power of that at SHIFTS, so 500 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: it wasn't even a debate at ELF. I think we're 501 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: one of the few companies in our space that gives 502 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 2: meaningful equity to every single employee every year. So it 503 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: gets to that ownership, that level that I talk about 504 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: where we're in it together. 505 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: I think sin's our IPO. 506 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: We've given if you exclude the exec team, one hundred 507 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: and eighty million dollars of equity in the stock that's 508 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: gone up at least sevenfold, and so meaningful wealth creation 509 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: for our team. And I'm very explicit about that because 510 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: if people are owners, they just have much more skin 511 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: in the game, Like we're all owners, let's keep moving forward, 512 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: let's keep trying things. I think then builds upon itself 513 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: in that culture. 514 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: On a personal level, how do you think about work 515 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: and your family and personal life. I can imagine growing 516 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 3: up running the motel it was sort of one and 517 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 3: the same. How do you think about it now? 518 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: That's been very much part of my whole life. It 519 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: has been one and the same. When you're running a 520 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: motel business, it's a twenty four to seven business, you're 521 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: with your family. 522 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: It's all together. 523 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: And I think for me, a lot of people talk 524 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: about work life balance. For me, they're one and the same. 525 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: My personal life, my work life, they are so intertwined. 526 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: So it's very much a family affair. One of the 527 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: things my wife and I love doing is we do 528 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: these this series called Afternoon with the Means, where we'll 529 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: invite our key leaders and their spouses or partners to 530 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: our house for an afternoon as a way of thanking 531 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: them for what they're doing, the way of getting to 532 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: know them better. I love what I do at work, 533 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: I love my personal life, and I love that they're 534 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: both together. 535 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 3: Let's jump to some quick topics brand building. How do 536 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 3: you think about brands? How do you build them? 537 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: I feel brands sort of living, breathing things and that 538 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 2: constantly evolve and need to be nurtured. And so I 539 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: think of a brand of what is something represent in 540 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 2: a consumer's mind and what does it stand for, well 541 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: beyond any functional attributes or benefits and so, and I 542 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 2: love over my career being able to see kind of 543 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 2: how brands grow, how they evolve that they stand for. 544 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 3: Let's go to some advice. If someone wants to succeed 545 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: running a company, what's the most important advice you could 546 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 3: give them? 547 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 2: I would say the most important advice is work on 548 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: your peer to peer relationships. A lot of people spend 549 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: too little time understanding other functional areas, understanding what makes 550 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 2: people tick, how you work together, and most importantly, giving 551 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: that feedback, because I think where people often fail is 552 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: they never knew what hit them or detracted from them. 553 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: And so being able to really make sure that you 554 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: develop that way of listening really well and providing feedback 555 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: I think are probably two of the most important skills 556 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: in running anything. 557 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 3: You've had a spectacular career and you've made some great choices. 558 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 3: How do you know it's time to change jobs? An 559 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: advice there, I would say, you got to love what 560 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 3: you're doing. 561 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: I have one of my eighty twenty rules is eighty 562 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: percent of what you work on, you got to love 563 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: twenty percents. You know the nonsense we all have to 564 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: deal with. Whenever they gets out of whack, then you've 565 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: got to you almost got to do a time out 566 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: and say, okay, we got to renegotiate what's going on here. 567 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 2: I've got to change something and so for me, unless 568 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: you have true passion of what you're doing, you're probably 569 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: not doing the right thing. And so I would say 570 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: making sure you're taking those moments of introspection of am 571 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 2: I truly happy? Am I loving what I'm doing? Am 572 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: I actually good at what I'm doing? And how do 573 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: I get better? And if you don't have that fundamental 574 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: passion and curiosity, then I'd say it's probably time to 575 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: do something different. 576 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 3: College. Does everybody need to go to college? 577 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: No? I don't even know where what schools most of 578 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: the people I work with went to. It's about curiosity, 579 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: learning and wanting to get better and never bought into 580 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: yet to be credentialed in a certain way to be 581 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: effective in life. I love my college experience. It was 582 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: just a great platform to continue to learn. But I'd 583 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: say one of the other's secrets of being successful is 584 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: never feel like you know anything, always being curious, always 585 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: asking questions, always wanting to get better, always surrounding yourself 586 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: with great people. That is so much more important than 587 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: any particular credential or environment. You know. 588 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: It's interesting we hear the word curiosity a lot, and 589 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: talking to other leaders, it's actually part of our company's 590 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 3: values is curiosity probably one of the most important things. 591 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 3: It's interesting to hear you define that as sort of 592 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: this important thing just for life and career. Final advice, 593 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 3: if you could go back in time and give some 594 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 3: advice to your twenty one year old self, what would 595 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: that advice be. 596 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: That advice would be embrace what you think is risky 597 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: or what you're worried about. I mean, I got married 598 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: at a pretty young age. I was the only kind 599 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: of breadwinner, and I was very happy at PNG. But 600 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: there's an entire revolution happening on the internet, and I 601 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 2: was a little risk verse or reluctant to kind of say, hey, 602 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: I should just take the leap when things are going 603 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 2: well to go pursue something that I thought was really interesting. 604 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: And I'd say so. 605 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: My biggest advice is the advice somebody once gave me, 606 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: which is lean in, say yes, try something different, and 607 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: don't be so worried about what if it doesn't work. 608 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: We end each episode of Math and Magic with a 609 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: shout out to those who've influenced us the most. From 610 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: two sides, the analytical side. Some people call them quants, 611 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 3: some people call them data people. Some people say in 612 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: pattern recognition, people, etc. But the math side and the 613 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 3: other person we want to give a shout out to 614 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 3: is that sort of creative genius, the promotional, the art, 615 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 3: the magic. Who are your two? 616 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: So on the math side, I would say Jensen. Want 617 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: just love his story and his vision, but more importantly 618 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: than vision and perseverance is ability to get that done 619 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 2: and the progress and videos made. It's just been incredible, 620 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: very in. 621 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: All of that on the magic side. 622 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 2: On the magic side, I would say Mike Cesario, the 623 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: founder and CEO of Liquid Death. I just love that 624 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: he made a can of water an object of desire 625 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: turned it into the art of entertainment. I think that's magic. 626 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: I also love the fact that they start with a 627 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: very simple question, which is, what's the dumbest thing we 628 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: can do? 629 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: You know, dumbest thing. 630 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: You can do is take a can of water and 631 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: make it something that's cool. And then they're constantly I 632 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: feel like this ability of normalizing the bizarre. I just 633 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: feel like it's quite magical what he and his team 634 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: are doing. 635 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 3: Terang, what an unusual and inspiring story you have, but 636 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 3: personally and professionally and what unique and wildly successful company 637 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: you've had huge congrats thanks for sharing your insights. Here 638 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: are a few things I picked up from my conversation 639 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: with Terang. One, Transparency is a superpower. One of the 640 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 3: reasons Durang loves running a public company is because it 641 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: requires him to be open and honest. His commitment that's 642 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 3: parency extends to every part of his work, from admitting 643 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: when he's wrong and embracing failure as an opportunity to 644 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: pivot and grow. Transparency can be the key to unfettered creativity, innovation, 645 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 3: and disruption. Two. Incentivize employees can be so much more 646 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: than a pep talk to rank takes accountability and ownership seriously, 647 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 3: and not only at the executive levels. From compensation to collaboration, 648 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: there can be concrete offerings at opportunities for growth, regardless 649 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: of someone's role or seniority. Depending on the goals you set, 650 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: this can have far reaching effects on sales and innovation 651 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 3: in addition to culture and teamwork. Three, Diversity can be 652 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 3: woven into the fabric of success. The advantages of employing 653 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: people with a multitude of perspectives and experiences can't be 654 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: boiled down into a single goal, quota, or initiative. Diversity 655 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 3: can serve a company in countless ways, especially when it's 656 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: built into every level of operation, from day to day discussion, 657 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: product testing and marketing, the board level strategizing. I'm Bob Pittman. 658 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. 659 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a 660 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is created and hosted 661 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sydney Rosenbloom for booking 662 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. 663 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: The Math and Magic team is Jessica Crimechich and Baheed Fraser. 664 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until 665 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: next time.