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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: It's very much a true crime story, but it is

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Speaker 2: certainly a story about family, family resilience in the bonds

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Speaker 2: that last over time. Traumatic events can be both traumatic

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Speaker 2: but also bring a group of people together in a

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Speaker 2: strange way.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. An assistant college football coach

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Speaker 1: never thought they'd find his mother because Dolores Wolf had

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Speaker 1: been missing for more than forty years. Paul Wolf, along

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Speaker 1: with most everyone else, believed that his father, Carl, had

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Speaker 1: murdered her. So what would happen to this case if

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Speaker 1: they found her? ESPN reporters Adam Rittenberg and Kyle Bonnagura

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Speaker 1: tell me about their investigation from their podcast Finding Dolores

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Speaker 1: wolf This is my first interview with one person from ESPN,

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Speaker 1: let alone two. So tell me how this came about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the production values great on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Let's go with Kyle first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it's it's an interesting backstory because I remember exactly

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Speaker 2: where I was when I found out about it.

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Speaker 3: Adam called me.

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Speaker 2: It was late on the West Coast, which is the

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Speaker 2: later in Chicago, and he's like, you got to see

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Speaker 2: this story.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, well, what are you talking about. He's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: He's like, I'll send it to you.

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Speaker 2: So he sent me a kind of a link to

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Speaker 2: the very basics of this story about a football coach.

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Speaker 2: We were both familiar with Paul Wolfe and how his mother,

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Speaker 2: who had been missing for forty one years, had had

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Speaker 2: been identified, and so we both were immediately intrigued, knowing

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Speaker 2: that here's this guy we had known so much about

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Speaker 2: in a professional capacity, but we had no idea that

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Speaker 2: he had been dealing with this other thing in his

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Speaker 2: life for the last four decades. And he said, we

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Speaker 2: got we got to write about this, we got to

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Speaker 2: learn more, and so he looped our editors into the

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Speaker 2: fold and they let us run with it. And for

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Speaker 2: the next nine months in twenty twenty, starting the fall

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, we reported this story fre.

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Speaker 3: ESPN dot com.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was again, it was a story that you know,

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Speaker 4: I'd remembered Paul Wolfe when he was coaching Washington State

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Speaker 4: and we covered him at ESPN to a degree. One

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Speaker 4: of our other colleagues that it really was the one

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Speaker 4: that was looking into him, and I remembered that some

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Speaker 4: thing really bad it happened in his background, and maybe

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Speaker 4: our former colleague Ted Miller had actually written about what

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Speaker 4: had happened to his mom, but didn't know the full

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Speaker 4: story by any means. And so when you know, a

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Speaker 4: friend of mine who kind of works in the sports

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Speaker 4: industry alerted me to this Facebook post about the discovery

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Speaker 4: after all these years, it just set in motion a

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Speaker 4: lot of different things. And again, I mean, this is

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Speaker 4: fall at twenty twenty, We're not reporting very much outside

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Speaker 4: of zooms in our own homes, and so it was

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Speaker 4: a pretty exciting thing to start digging into. And our

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Speaker 4: i mean, our bosses were immediately very interested in seeing

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Speaker 4: where this could go. But you know, ultimately, even as

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Speaker 4: we did the digital story and put it out there,

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Speaker 4: you know, we both felt very strongly that there was

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Speaker 4: a larger piece to tell, i ideally through a podcast setting,

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Speaker 4: and so that's that's where it gets a little bit

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Speaker 4: longer to get to the finish line. But in terms

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Speaker 4: of the story itself, knowing that this was something big

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Speaker 4: and different, we we realized that right away.

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Speaker 1: Has ESPN done anything this intersection of crime, you know,

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Speaker 1: murder and sports before or you guys sort of groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: with this.

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Speaker 2: Now there's been There's been a lot of these types

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Speaker 2: of stories whenever, whenever they pop it these like not

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Speaker 2: all the time, right, but when the intersection is there.

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Speaker 2: ESPN has certainly not been shy about taking big swings

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Speaker 2: at stories when they're deserved. You know, for a long

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Speaker 2: time they had Outside the Lines, which is kind of

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Speaker 2: the the banner platform to tell these sort of stories.

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Speaker 2: But certainly there's an enterprise unit that digs into a

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Speaker 2: lot of these sorts of stories as well and does

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Speaker 2: a really good job finding, you know, kind of picking

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Speaker 2: the spots where it's a you know, high profile enough

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Speaker 2: individual or it's an interesting enough, you know, aside from

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Speaker 2: sports that make it you know, compelling enough to divert

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Speaker 2: resources to telling these sort of stories.

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Speaker 1: And what was interesting to me is that I feel

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Speaker 1: like this is the first kind of story I had

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Speaker 1: heard from from ESPN that was the impact of such

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Speaker 1: a terrible cour I'm on someone. This was not an

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Speaker 1: athlete that was accused or convicted of something. This was

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Speaker 1: not an athlete that was the victim of crime, although

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Speaker 1: he was, but you know, this was sort of like

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Speaker 1: the reverberations of losing someone in a sudden, tragic and

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Speaker 1: kind of a you know, open ended way throughout his career,

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Speaker 1: in his life. And so this to me was a

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Speaker 1: kind of a different take than other sports stories I've

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Speaker 1: read about with crime. What do you think about that, Adam, Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that it's certainly these are the types

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Speaker 4: of stories that we look to tell and that are

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Speaker 4: told in some ways through different ESPN platforms. But it

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Speaker 4: was you know, unique in a sense that all this

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Speaker 4: occurred before Paul was a prominent sports figure. And while

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Speaker 4: this family and it obviously comes out in the in

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Speaker 4: the podcast, it is very much a sports family and

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Speaker 4: very much a football family in Northern California. You know,

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Speaker 4: this was not a sports story until he became what

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Speaker 4: he became as a player and as a coach, you know,

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Speaker 4: later on in his life. So you know, as you know,

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Speaker 4: these stories happened all sorts of people, but they don't

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Speaker 4: all become major college football coaches, and so that was

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Speaker 4: certainly what drew us in. But as we quickly found out,

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Speaker 4: there was so much more to this and so many

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Speaker 4: more people to talk to and layers to this. I

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Speaker 4: think one thing that certainly comes out, hopefully in the

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Speaker 4: podcast itself, is just how many great storytellers there are.

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Speaker 4: The voices that you hear, the way people describe things,

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Speaker 4: the detail that they go into. That's really what motivated

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Speaker 4: us to tell this in a podcast setting.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's always great to highlight the victim, obviously,

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Speaker 1: especially if we can know more about her. So I

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Speaker 1: think we start with Dolores. We know that Paul is,

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Speaker 1: as far as her children, your main character through this, right,

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Speaker 1: but she had other children. She was forty five. Will

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Speaker 1: you tell me a little bit about her backstory, how

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Speaker 1: she came to meet Carl, all of that stuff, so

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Speaker 1: we know her a little bit better.

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Speaker 2: So really fascinating backstory. She's from a family of immigrants.

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Speaker 2: Her her parents were immigrants from the Azores, the chain

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Speaker 2: of islands off the coast of Portugal. You know, they

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Speaker 2: settled in rural northern California. They got into all sorts

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Speaker 2: of farming. There was a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who came over from the Azores in that in

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Speaker 2: that period of time, it was the early nineteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: You know, first they settled near the coast, and then

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Speaker 2: after after Pearl Harbor, the family decided to go inland,

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Speaker 2: you know, several miles because they were scared about potentially

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Speaker 2: being targets during the war, which I thought was an

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Speaker 2: interesting kind of story about how they ended up in

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Speaker 2: the Sacramento area. But yeah, so she grew up in

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Speaker 2: this small town outside of Sacramento, in this tight knit

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Speaker 2: small community, and then met Carl Wolf, you know, sometime

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Speaker 2: around twenty twenty one. We actually don't know the specifics

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Speaker 2: of how they met, because her children don't even know

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Speaker 2: the specifics of how they met. We asked all of

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Speaker 2: them kind of the same question that you just asked us,

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Speaker 2: where and how did they meet?

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Speaker 3: And they didn't know.

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Speaker 2: That was never as part of the family's oral history

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Speaker 2: didn't make the cut, I guess, but they were married

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Speaker 2: early four kids. Like we mentioned, Paul, Paul was the

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Speaker 2: youngest of four. The oldest was Carl, then there was

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Speaker 2: Tom and and Anna Marie. Ana Marie is the second

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Speaker 2: in terms of age, and throughout the podcast, she's actually

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Speaker 2: you know, very important in terms of understanding how everything

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Speaker 2: played out back in nineteen seventy nine, because at this time,

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Speaker 2: you know, Paul was twelve, right, he was, he was

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Speaker 2: a kid, and so his recollection of the moments of

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Speaker 2: when every everything happened right are not great because his

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Speaker 2: family did try to shield him away from all of

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Speaker 2: it as much as possible because he was twelve. And

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Speaker 2: so while in our you know, in our ESPN piece,

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Speaker 2: we certainly used Paul as the kind of the vehicle

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Speaker 2: to take everyone through the story. He's the main character

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Speaker 2: in the podcast, he takes a little bit more of

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Speaker 2: a back seat because he just was too young when

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Speaker 2: the crime took place to be a really you know,

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Speaker 2: reliable narrator in terms of what was happening at a

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Speaker 2: you know, on a police level, at a hot you know,

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Speaker 2: at a family level. And he had his own recollections

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Speaker 2: of course, and we get into all of that. But

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Speaker 2: Anna Marie, his older sister, was I think in nineteen

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Speaker 2: or twenty. In nineteen seventy nine when when Dolores went missing,

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Speaker 2: she was the first one to all police. She was

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Speaker 2: the first one to talk with her father. We kind

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Speaker 2: of detail over the next several decades how she was

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Speaker 2: kind of back and forth about what might have happened.

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Speaker 2: She was at first very convinced that her father was responsible,

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Speaker 2: and then I kind of switched sides, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: And so it was a very evolving understanding for her

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Speaker 2: about what happened.

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious about the relationship between Carl and Dolores,

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Speaker 1: but you have two different perspectives. You got her children

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Speaker 1: and then you have Dolores's siblings also, Right, So did

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Speaker 1: everybody like this guy from the beginning or did people not?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: How did that whole work? Because they were married for

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Speaker 1: more than twenty years, it sounds like right.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, we did obviously speak with with Dolores's brother, Slick,

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Speaker 4: and we'll get into that, but also her you know,

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Speaker 4: a couple of her cousins who were still alive and

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Speaker 4: did remember when Carl Wolf essentially came into their lives,

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Speaker 4: and to answer your question, they did like him.

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Speaker 5: Initially, he was one of the guys.

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Speaker 4: According to Tony Roche, who was a cousin of Dolores,

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Speaker 4: would play basketball with the other male cousins and they'd

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Speaker 4: hang out and they'd play cards, and they thought he

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Speaker 4: was a good guy really to start out with. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I think that that was part of the

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Speaker 4: struggle for a lot of people, either in Dolores's family

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Speaker 4: or even you know, Paul gets into this towards the

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Speaker 4: end of the podcast of what happened to someone who

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Speaker 4: seemingly everybody liked, who was on one path and then

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Speaker 4: how did they change to another path? What happened to

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Speaker 4: them psychologically, what happened to them in their life to pivot?

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Speaker 4: And there's obviously different theories on that, but you know, again, initially,

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Speaker 4: as a boyfriend, a young husband, a young father, I

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Speaker 4: think he was he was seen in a pretty positive light,

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Speaker 4: a guy who was ambitious, wasn't from the area, was

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Speaker 4: trying to start his life in California with different businesses,

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Speaker 4: and then obviously it turned at some point.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Kyle, tell me about the kid's perspective, because

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Speaker 1: I know that Carl turns abusive. You know, I want

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Speaker 1: to know when that happens. And you said that Anne

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Speaker 1: Marie kind of switched back and forth between feeling like

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Speaker 1: her dad had something to do with this and then not.

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Speaker 1: So he must have been an okay father at some point.

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Speaker 1: Just tell me what the kid's perspective was of him.

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Speaker 2: So, I it's interesting because they're all it's all very unique, right,

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Speaker 2: And so with Anna Marie, you know, she goes into

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Speaker 2: this a little bit in the podcast, and this is

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of definitely a sensitive topic, is that

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Speaker 2: there was some allegations of molestation when she was young,

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Speaker 2: even as young as twelve years old, and she was

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Speaker 2: brave enough to go into a little bit of that

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Speaker 2: with us to kind of just provide the you know,

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Speaker 2: context of what the home life was like at that time.

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Speaker 2: And she laid all that out to police when she

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Speaker 2: initially reported her suspicions that her father was responsible for

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Speaker 2: her mother's disappearance. So, you know, she she did not

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Speaker 2: have a good relationship with Carl, That's obviously a big

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Speaker 2: part of that. But then you try to make sense of, Okay,

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Speaker 2: then why did she kind of gravitate back to him?

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Speaker 2: That's a that's a tough, h dynamic to understand, right,

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Speaker 2: And I think Annie, he's probably still processing some of

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Speaker 2: that to this day. Obviously, the psychological tool that having

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Speaker 2: your father behave in that way, it's tough, right, And

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Speaker 2: so there was that strange dynamic, of course. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, the oldest son, Carly, he went by Carlee,

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Speaker 2: not Carl, which is I thought was interesting that he

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Speaker 2: kind of had the same name but didn't go by

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Speaker 2: the same name. Initially, you know, he didn't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of patience for his father. He calls him the

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Speaker 2: old man, still refuses to kind of refer to him

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Speaker 2: by name, and he's not a man of many words.

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Speaker 2: But you know, through what we've heard from his other

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Speaker 2: family members and what we heard from him is that

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Speaker 2: you know, he you know, he didn't have a great

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Speaker 2: relationship with father, was very you know, cut and dry.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't a whole lot of emotional you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, say it like, it wasn't really an emotional

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Speaker 2: relationship for him. And again, when his mother went missing,

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Speaker 2: he felt very strongly, very quickly that his father was

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Speaker 2: responsible and just never and never, you know, gave that

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Speaker 2: a second thought ever again, and there's the two younger ones,

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Speaker 2: and the most you know, combative relationship was the third child, Tom,

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Speaker 2: and Tom was physically abused by Carl.

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Speaker 3: And he would beat him.

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Speaker 2: He would there was a time where he hit him

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Speaker 2: so hard that he had a busted ear drum. So

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of back and forth with them,

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Speaker 2: and as as Tom got older, the things got more physical.

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Speaker 2: He was wasn't willing to back down so much, and

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Speaker 2: his father was willing to kind of go a little

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Speaker 2: bit further, and so that you know, as soon as again,

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Speaker 2: like when Delores went missing, he was perhaps most ready

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Speaker 2: to act, and there was we have a story in

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Speaker 2: the podcast where he drove across town with a rifle

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Speaker 2: and was going to confront his father and thankfully his

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Speaker 2: his aunt and uncle were able to kind of talk

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Speaker 2: him down and prevent any you know, anything from happening.

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Speaker 2: And then there was Paul, who whose relationship was actually

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Speaker 2: pleasant for the most part in it, you know what. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: as time went on, deteriorated, and eventually the relationship was

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Speaker 2: non existent once Paul got into his early twenties. The

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Speaker 2: last time they ever spoke, Carl told Paul that he,

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Speaker 2: you know, he was drunk and he was going to

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Speaker 2: go join the CIA and move to another country. So

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Speaker 2: he was kind of spiraling out of control there at

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Speaker 2: the end.

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Speaker 1: Adam, let me go back to something that Kyle said,

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Speaker 1: when the sexual abuse allegations, I'm just curious, did these

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Speaker 1: allegations or whatever it was, did they come out while

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Speaker 1: Dolores was still alive and married to him and just

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Speaker 1: nothing happened or what surrounds that? And then I want

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Speaker 1: to get into the day of her disappearance, right, So.

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Speaker 5: This is where it's certainly a bit complicated.

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Speaker 4: Yet, Yes, they were relayed from Anna Marie to her

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Speaker 4: mother shortly after that happened. But Dolores's reaction is really important.

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Speaker 4: She basically did not, at least to Anna Marie, have

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Speaker 4: much of a reaction. You know, it was kind of aloof,

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Speaker 4: wasn't hysterical, wasn't ready to confront Carl, And it really

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Speaker 4: impacted Anna Marie in terms of her relationship towards her mother.

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Speaker 4: And you know, later on she would say it impacted

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Speaker 4: how she how she would respond to her fe later

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Speaker 4: on because her mother didn't react maybe in a way

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Speaker 4: that she wanted, and Anna Marie, you know, kind of

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Speaker 4: felt like How could you not come to my defense?

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Speaker 3: Mom?

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Speaker 4: How could you not take action to what I'm telling you?

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Speaker 4: And you know, maybe it's kind of a bit of

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Speaker 4: a rebellion. Later on, after everything happened, she did side

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Speaker 4: with her dad, or at least was somewhat sympathetic to him. So, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that that was relayed to Dolores while she was alive.

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Speaker 4: And you know, but as we found out, you know,

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Speaker 4: later on, and Anna Marie found out much later on,

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Speaker 4: she was very upset and she was horrified, but she

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Speaker 4: didn't show that to Anna Marie in the moment.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, Kyle, in the days leading up to Dolores's disappearance,

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Speaker 1: what was sort of the big event? Was it Dolores

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Speaker 1: finally saying to Carl I want a divorce And what

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Speaker 1: led up to that to begin with.

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Speaker 2: So that remains one of the big questions because it's

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Speaker 2: still not fully understood what the breaking point was. There's

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Speaker 2: some theories she had actually filed for divorce at one point.

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Speaker 2: He was, you know, he had been cheating on her.

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Speaker 2: He was generally, you know, certainly verbally abusive. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: any real indications that he was physically abusive that anyone

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Speaker 2: that we talked to was aware of. But the way

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Speaker 2: the story was told to us, and this is a

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Speaker 2: theory from the detective who investigated the crime and was

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Speaker 2: kind of close for the family for a very long time,

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Speaker 2: was that there was this volunteer police officer within the

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Speaker 2: Woodland Police Department, and the night that Dolores disappeared, Carl

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Speaker 2: had been talking with her on the phone. He was

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Speaker 2: trying to get her to go out for a drink

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Speaker 2: with him that night. She would later testify to that

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Speaker 2: in court. And so the detective's theory is that, hey,

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Speaker 2: the timeline certainly lines up that it's possible that Dolores

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Speaker 2: had heard her husband on the phone with this other

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Speaker 2: woman in the house that night. That leads to some

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Speaker 2: sort of a confrontation and one thing leads to another,

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Speaker 2: and she's missing the next day. Like it checks out logically,

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Speaker 2: the timeline makes sense. There is motive, there is a

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Speaker 2: kind of a history. We heard us personally, but the

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Speaker 2: detective heard from the other woman who was on the phone,

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Speaker 2: and certainly, you know, years later we learned their body

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Speaker 2: was found not too far away. And so that's probably

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Speaker 2: the best explanation that we're ever going to get just

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Speaker 2: because there's no other way to piece it together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Adam, tell me about the day, and I know

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Speaker 1: she has a big event, and I think that that's

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Speaker 1: recounted really nicely. You know that she was actually fairly

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Speaker 1: happy the day that she disappeared.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was you know, there was a time where

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Speaker 4: the family was coming together. It was the middle of

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Speaker 4: the summer. They had just celebrated the anniversary of her

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Speaker 4: aunt and uncle, a fifty year wedding anniversary at the

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Speaker 4: parish hall in Woodland. You know, again, you know Dolores

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Speaker 4: at that moment, this is again just a couple of

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Speaker 4: days before the disappearance, was was being Dolores, and she

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Speaker 4: was happy, and she was interacting with her family, and

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Speaker 4: she was floating around the room and and you know,

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Speaker 4: making party favors and making jokes and everything. We have

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Speaker 4: her cousin Debbie Baker, kind of going through that. And

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Speaker 4: then you know, a couple of days later this happens,

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Speaker 4: and so you know, we do have Carly the you know,

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Speaker 4: Carl Junior, you know, going to the house the night

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Speaker 4: of the disappearance and you know, seeing his mother upset.

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Speaker 4: She was like in a nightgown and upset and kind

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Speaker 4: of figured, hey, they're going at it again. You know,

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Speaker 4: this marriage is obviously strained. They fight a lot. Here's

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Speaker 4: another fight. But didn't think again, anything more than that

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Speaker 4: at the time. So it didn't seem like there was

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Speaker 4: something way out of the ordinary because of who she

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Speaker 4: was outside of the house and around her family, which

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Speaker 4: is a very happy person. But then also the tension

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Speaker 4: inside the house, which also wasn't new at that time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so Carly is over there. Remind me how old

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Speaker 1: he was at the time.

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Speaker 4: Carl was maybe twenty one, twenty two, he'd just been married,

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Speaker 4: was in his early twenties.

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Speaker 1: Got it. Okay, So Carly goes over, he sees his

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Speaker 1: mom upset, and this is nothing new. Had they tried

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Speaker 1: to intervene since he's an adult, had he said, Mom,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing? I'll take you in it's at

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Speaker 1: any point, Carl.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there was a lot of that.

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Speaker 2: Both Dolores and Carl had both moved out of the

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Speaker 2: house on separate occasions.

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Speaker 3: At a certain time. Dolores had actually got her.

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Speaker 2: Own apartment in town for you know, a couple of months,

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Speaker 2: as I understand it. Yeah, I think all the family

390
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Speaker 2: at the end was was basically over Carl over their relationship.

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Speaker 2: I mean multiple family members had heard him threaten her

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Speaker 2: life in front of them in person over the last

393
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Speaker 2: few years before she went missing. Everyone had a story

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Speaker 2: about hearing Carl Wolf threaten Dolores. And so when she

395
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Speaker 2: did go missing that night, you know, everyone's like, well,

396
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Speaker 2: he finally did it. That was kind of the gut

397
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Speaker 2: reaction from everyone because there was just this long documented

398
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Speaker 2: history of threats of to her life or doing harm

399
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Speaker 2: to her. You know, it obviously wasn't a big stretch

400
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Speaker 2: then to you know, look at the facts of the case,

401
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Speaker 2: right and then make the make the jump to that

402
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Speaker 2: he was responsible.

403
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Speaker 1: Okay, So, Adam, I'm curious about how much you guys

404
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Speaker 1: went down the road of why family members friends. Kyle

405
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Speaker 1: just said, all of these people had heard Carl threaten

406
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Speaker 1: her life. What stops people from intervening? And maybe I

407
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 1: don't know if it's also in particular the seventies and

408
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,719
Speaker 1: if there was sort of different social you know, etiquette,

409
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Speaker 1: which sounds so silly to me, But why would they

410
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Speaker 1: not step in if it's that many people?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Kay, This is one of the most central questions of

413
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Speaker 4: the entire story, and it's one that we were even

414
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Speaker 4: asking after the podcast. We had a bonus episode with

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Speaker 4: with Tony Roache, the cousin of Dolores, who made it

416
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Speaker 4: very clear that in that episode that they're ready to go.

417
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Speaker 4: They were ready to do whatever it took to make

418
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Speaker 4: sure that Carl Wolf did not harm Dolores, who was

419
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Speaker 4: their cousin, who was their sibling in some cases, and

420
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Speaker 4: you know, again depending on who you talk to, but

421
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Speaker 4: it really came down to Dolorus didn't want them to intervene.

422
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Speaker 4: You know, she always told them, hold off, don't hurt him.

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Speaker 4: He'll come around. He's just drunk.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: He was obviously a big drinker, and there was this

426
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Speaker 4: I think feeling like, oh, he's a different person when

427
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Speaker 4: he's not drinking, even though he became that alcoholic more

428
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Speaker 4: and more towards the end. So the sober Carl Wolf

429
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 4: wasn't around very much, but they know she protected him

430
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Speaker 4: from them, because that was what was a part of

431
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Speaker 4: this That was that was that really struck both Kyle

432
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Speaker 4: and I is just how brazen it would be to

433
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Speaker 4: do this to someone who has this massive family support

434
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Speaker 4: surrounding her, and and not just people that are there

435
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Speaker 4: to support her, but especially the male members of the

436
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 4: family were ready to do harm, like they wouldn't have

437
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 4: thought twice about doing harm to Carl Wolf, especially in

438
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 4: that kind of rural community. And you know, she essentially

439
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 4: kept them away. But but I think you can tell

440
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 4: by their reactions, whether it was Slick, her brother, whether

441
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 4: it was Tony Roche, whether it was others that you know,

442
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 4: to the disappearance, they all immediately went to not Dolores

443
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 4: ran away, not you know, something else. It was that

444
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 4: she was never coming back and that Carl Wolf had

445
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 4: killed her. That was the only possible outcome in their minds.

446
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about that day. That night, so Carly comes,

447
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: he sees his mom. She's upset. He says, I'm sorry,

448
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever he says. When do people then

449
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: sound the alarm that something's wrong? How long does it

450
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: take for people to figure out that she's gone and

451
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: is not going to come back.

452
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: Six oh one am the next day, Anna Marie calls

453
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 2: the house and she had, you know, been going through

454
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: her own issues at the time, and she actually called

455
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: the house looking to speak with her father. She was

456
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: having some back pain and he had had some back pain.

457
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: So she was kind of just looking for like how

458
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: do you kind of manage the back pain? And immediately

459
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 2: when she calls the house, Carl tells her your mother's

460
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 2: not home. That's how that's how he answers the call.

461
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: And she was like, well, you know, kind of didn't

462
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: think anything of it. It's six am, right, She's just

463
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: calling about her back. That was that was hurting. So

464
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 2: at that point she was like kind of aware that

465
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: her mom's gone, but didn't really think my you know,

466
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: she didn't think, oh, she's gone, like gone gone. She's

467
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: just like not president at the house, right, And so

468
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: that was the that was the first kind of moment

469
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: where someone became aware that she was gone.

470
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 3: And then later that.

471
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: Morning, Carl didn't end up calling the police to report

472
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 2: that Dolores was missing. Then other family members also started

473
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: alerting the police at well, hey, like Doris is gone,

474
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 2: we can't find her. Carl started telling people as well.

475
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 2: He called his sister in law to tell her that, hey,

476
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: you know, Dolores isn't here. And I think the idea

477
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: behind that is, you know, if you're trying to cover

478
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: up a crime, it's better for him to be the

479
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 2: one to report it. To police as opposed to any alternatives,

480
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: because then he's trying to preserve a plausible deniability, I guess.

481
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: And so yeah, it was. It was.

482
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: It was that next morning where he's telling family members

483
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: she's gone. He tells the police, and then other family

484
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 2: members start calling the police and pointing the finger at him.

485
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: What did he say, she's sleeping with some guy or

486
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: what was alarming supposedly to him.

487
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what he said is that she's gone and

488
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: she's never coming back. He tried to sell the story

489
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: that she had run away and she was leaving all

490
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 2: our friends and family behind in the middle of the night.

491
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: You know, all her personal effects were still there, all

492
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: her jewelry, her driver's license, her keys, like her car,

493
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 2: like all of the things that you would, you know,

494
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: need to get away.

495
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: Those things were still at the house. But you know,

496
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: he to a.

497
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 2: Certain degree, it seems like he panicked and this was

498
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 2: kind of how he decided to explain it, and to

499
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 2: a certain degree it worked. I mean, this is a

500
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: man who was not arrested for several years. We can

501
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: probably get into some of that as well, but you know,

502
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: Carl Wolf was never convicted of her kidnapping. Of her

503
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: murder never faced any real official justice in this case,

504
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: and so it again I think it probably speaks at

505
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: the times right, how to get away with murder in

506
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. Well, you know, it's it was just

507
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: a different world.

508
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: Then, So Adam, before we kind of get into the investigation,

509
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 1: now that we have the police being called, was there

510
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: a record with all of these fights? Was there a

511
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: record of the police showing up? Did neighbors call the

512
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: police to complain about noise? Or was this again people

513
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: didn't get into each other's business and this was a

514
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: rural area.

515
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 4: Maybe yeah, I don't think there was any police involvement

516
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 4: until the disappearance, but was very much known in I

517
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 4: don't know about the community at large, but within Dolores's family,

518
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: who again is surrounding this place. I mean, if you

519
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 4: were to look on the map where the wolf House

520
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 4: was on Hillcrest Drive, which was just west of Woodland,

521
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,479
Speaker 4: that maybe five miles west of Woodland, and then you

522
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: saw where where I mean she had a brother one

523
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: I think another brother was right down the street, and

524
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: then her brother Slick, who we obviously talk about a

525
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 4: lot in the podcast, her cousins, her parents, like, they're

526
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 4: all right there, and they all were aware, but I

527
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 4: don't think it ever reached a level of bringing in

528
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 4: law enforcement before the actual disappearance.

529
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: So, Kyle is Paul, who's twelve, the youngest. Is he

530
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: at home when this is how happening? Does he have

531
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: any you know, any input, any information whatsoever about that night?

532
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

533
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: So one of the reasons the family members think that

534
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: this was possible is that no one was home that night.

535
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: Paul was at his uncle's house.

536
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: There was a birthday party for one of his cousins,

537
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: so kind of a sleepover type deal, so he wasn't home.

538
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: And then his you know, his next older brother, Tom

539
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: was away in the Bay Area at a basketball camp.

540
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: And then the two oldest ones were no longer living

541
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: at the house, and so it was rare for the kids,

542
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: both kids, Tom and Paul not to sleep under their

543
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: own roof. But this was one of the rare instances

544
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: where they were both gone. And you know, that's probably

545
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 2: what allowed this to happen, because if the kids were

546
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: at home, you know, I think it probably plays that

547
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: much differently.

548
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: Well, I was actually wondering about that, and Adam, you

549
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: can answer this. So on the one hand, I thought

550
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: what you just said. Maybe you're right that they had

551
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: a louder fight than they normally would, or she really

552
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: ripped into him and triggered him, or he really you know,

553
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: triggered whatever it was because the kids weren't home. But

554
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: is it also possible that he knew that these two

555
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: kids were not going to be at home and this

556
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: was more premeditated than anything else.

557
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, again, you do wonder how it would

558
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 4: have played out if one or both of them were

559
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 4: at home. And as Kyle noted, you know, the relationship

560
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: with Tom was extremely volatile. I mean, Paul was very

561
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 4: much shielded from his father's wrath so to speak, by Dolores,

562
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 4: but Tom was not. And so you can only speculate,

563
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: but I just can't imagine Carl trying to get away

564
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 4: with this while Tom was there. Tom would have certainly

565
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 4: stepped in. And if it was a major fight in

566
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 4: the house with injuries and blood and things like that,

567
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 4: I just don't unless he tried to kill everybody who knows.

568
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 5: It may have been that much of a rage.

569
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 4: That built up in him in that moment, But certainly

570
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 4: seemed convenient that this occurred when neither of those two

571
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 4: younger kids were around because you know, like Carly had been,

572
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: you know, was young and married, just out of the house,

573
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 4: and then Anna Marie was right around late teen years,

574
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 4: also out of the house. So yeah, there wasn't anyone

575
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 4: around on that night of July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine.

576
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: And I'll just add to that, Kate, and that was

577
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: it premeditated, you know, possibly right, he had certainly threatened

578
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 2: her enough over the years that he was something that

579
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: was something that he like talked about, and so this

580
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,239
Speaker 2: idea that maybe this was the chance that he had

581
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 2: been working Toya, I don't think you can.

582
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 3: Rule that out.

583
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: I think if it was premeditated, you probably would have

584
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: come up with a little bit of a better plan

585
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: because it was so half baked that you know, in

586
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, she just runs away, that's

587
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: your explanation, like it's really you know, for most people,

588
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: was pretty easy to dismiss his explanation out of hand.

589
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: But the reason he ended up getting away with it

590
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: is because you know, a body has never found at

591
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: least wasn't found, and inconnected to her in a way

592
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: that made it possible. And that was really what prevented

593
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: this case from really progressing through through the justice system

594
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: in a meaningful way.

595
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 4: And I do think of the words, and Kyle and

596
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: I have heard this several times from Janet Wheaton, who

597
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: was Carl's sister in law, the ex wife of Slick,

598
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 4: that he told her and she says she'll remember this

599
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: till her dying day. I know how to do it

600
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 4: and not get caught. It was the phrase, so again brazen,

601
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: you know, laying it out, saying that he was going

602
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 4: to do this, and you know, perhaps I will never

603
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 4: fully know, but seemingly followed through unfortunately.

604
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: Okay, So Kyle, tell me what the police reaction is.

605
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: So you told me what Carl says. She's disappeared, She's

606
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: never coming back. I don't know what happened to her.

607
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything to her. Do they buy that

608
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: or do they look around what happens with the investigation?

609
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, they never bought that for a second.

610
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: There was just too much compelling evidence, the circumstances, the

611
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: interviews with family members, all the backstories about the threats.

612
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: To her life over the years.

613
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: But you know, we would later find out that, you know,

614
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: he was the only focus of the investigation. He was

615
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: their only suspect from day one. This is both from

616
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: the detective who led the investigation along with the who

617
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: was in charge of deciding whether or not to prosecute.

618
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: At the time, they both knew in their hearts that

619
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: Karl was responsible for her death, but it just became

620
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: a matter of can they prove it in court, and

621
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: that the bar for prosecution in that time in a

622
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: smaller county like Yolo County, it was, it was it

623
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: was difficult, and you'll, you know, you talk to you know,

624
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: Doris's family about that. To this day, they still don't

625
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: buy that excuse. They're still upset that more pressure wasn't

626
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: put on him, that he wasn't arrested early, that there

627
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: wasn't a lot of support from the DA's office to

628
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: prosecute him right away. They do end up, you know,

629
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: getting there eventually, but it's this six year odyssey before

630
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: Carl Wolf is arrested. They tried to, you know, they

631
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: tried and tried to find her body. They always thought that, hey,

632
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: if we're able to locate the body, we can prove

633
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: that she's dead. Any sort of explanation that she went

634
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: to go start a new life it would just be

635
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: dismissed immediately, right, And so they kind of kept kicking

636
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: the can down the road hoping that they would find

637
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: her body, and they just never did. And so, you know,

638
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: six years later, the family is still up in arms

639
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: about how this is being handled. They're still putting a

640
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on the local DA, the local police,

641
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: the sheriff's department. Eventually they put pressure at the state

642
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: level and they went to the Attorney General's office and

643
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: they kind of laid out everything that happened, and we're

644
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: basically told from the AG's office, you guys have a

645
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: compelling case here. We're actually interested in taking this on ourselves.

646
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: And at that point politics become part of the story.

647
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: In the local district attorney, you know, it doesn't want

648
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: to get bigfooted by the state AG's office on a

649
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: crime that happened in their jurisdiction.

650
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: They end up taking on the case.

651
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: Still no body arrest Carl Wolf, and then they start

652
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: going down the path in court to determine whether it's

653
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: a you know, whether they would actually go to trial.

654
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: You know, these kinds of cases. I work with very

655
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: very old cases eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds and when

656
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: you do old cases, and this, I guess would be

657
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: an old case for you guys. When you do old cases,

658
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: it's like you constantly reminded of how difficult with the

659
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: few forensic tools available to you. You know, I feel

660
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: like I know every step of forensics based on whatever

661
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: decade we're in. So I know that they had luck

662
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: with the blood typing abo, but was that it? What

663
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: else were they able to do? And then tell me

664
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: about that evidence?

665
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: Right, So, a couple of days after the disappearance, and

666
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 4: maybe even the day after the investigation begins, and the

667
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 4: part that certainly jumped out to Ron Heilman, who was

668
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: the lead investigator that really followed this case for many years,

669
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 4: was that blood evidence that was discovered on the car.

670
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 4: There was a sheet with blood on it, and obviously

671
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: it did match, but there wasn't a lot of other

672
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 4: physical evidence that they were able to obtain at the scene.

673
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 4: You know, the house, you know, when hilan And went inside,

674
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: he remembers that the bleach smell in the house as

675
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 4: though it had been disinfected. So there wasn't any blood

676
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: evidence in the house. There wasn't anything broken and so forth,

677
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 4: and so they couldn't go off of much else other

678
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: than you know, what's very suspicious blood. You know, it

679
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 4: looked like fingerprints on the car, and so someone was

680
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: struggling to get out of the trunk. But there wasn't

681
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 4: anything else that they could absolutely connect to Dolores.

682
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: I mean, there have been people who have been convicted

683
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: on so much rightfully convicted on so much less evidence

684
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: than that. So, Kyle, does that go back to the

685
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: politics end of this or was their bar just so

686
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: high because this was a no body case for evidence

687
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: that they just felt like, we can't take a risk.

688
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: What it was it?

689
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think the DA and we had a

690
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: nice long conversation with him, and he's like, if we

691
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: had done it differently, we would have arrested him earlier.

692
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: But they just felt like they were trying to get

693
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: him to confess. At different times over the years, they

694
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: brought Paul in to try to get him to get

695
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: his father to confess. They really felt like, Hey, if

696
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: we arrest him now and take this to trial and lose,

697
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: like this is our only shot here, And so they

698
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: went for a confession, They went forward finding the body.

699
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: They really ran out all the other options, and then

700
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: you know, there's a switch at the DA's office. The

701
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: original DA went to become a judge in a different county,

702
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: and then a new kind.

703
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: Of acting DA.

704
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: He you know, he doesn't want to make waves. He

705
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: was kind of in the office at the time when

706
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: they decided not to pursue charges. And so it really

707
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: is this small town, you know, small community court system

708
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: that they really didn't have a lot of Jews, right,

709
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: and so that that all play, that all played into it.

710
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: There's you know, allegations from the family members that look,

711
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: the DA didn't want to lose a high profile case

712
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: because it could potentially hurt the possibility of him becoming

713
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: a judge. And where that's real or not, you know,

714
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: who's to say, you know, four and a half decades later,

715
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: but like that, that's certainly something that the family was

716
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: adamant about. And yeah, it really comes down to there

717
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: not being a body and when they do, I mean,

718
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: eventually they do take the case. Right, he is arrested,

719
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: he has charged with murder, and they start these several

720
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 2: months of evidentiary hearings where everything that would have been

721
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 2: presented a couple of years earlier did find its way

722
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: into the courtroom. But it wasn't convincing to the judge

723
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 2: even you know, everything stayed the same, right, They had

724
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 2: all the testimony from family members, the threats of death,

725
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 2: the blood on the blanket that was her blood type.

726
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: They didn't have DNA, but it was a match to

727
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: her blood type, the threats of death, like this kind

728
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: of half baked explanation that she had disappeared. It was

729
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: all laid out in front of a judge and he

730
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: basically made the determination.

731
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: It's kind of twofold one.

732
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: The final rule was that by waiting the six years,

733
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: they actually violated Carl's right to a speedy trial. So

734
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: it's really a technicality in which she got off on.

735
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: But at the same time, the judge also told newspapers

736
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: at the time and we dug through all of those archives.

737
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: Like he said, it was a weak case. So notwithstanding

738
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: the actual ruling, the judge also it seemed to be

739
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: siding with this isn't a a this isn't a case

740
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 2: that you can prosecute anyways based on the evidence. And

741
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: that is just something that Adam and I both are

742
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: are were shocked with because, like you said, there have

743
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: been several cases that have been prosecuted with far fewer

744
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: evidence that occurred here, and yet they decided not to

745
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 2: so kind of getting into the head of the judges

746
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: and the das at the time is a little bit

747
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: tough that ones who didn't talk to of course, but

748
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: you know, that's that's how it played out.

749
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: Well. So he has arrested and then I look at

750
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: the story in there are several sort of goalposts is

751
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: probably not the right word, but there's several sort of

752
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: markers along the way. I think the first one after

753
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: his arrest is they bring in Paul, who's now eighteen,

754
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: for a sting operation right while he's in jail. Is

755
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: that what happens at him, right.

756
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 4: So you know, what are the attempts during that at

757
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 4: somewhat brief time when Carl is behind bars there in Woodland,

758
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 4: was to get Paul to elicit a confession from his father,

759
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 4: And so he goes in and talks to his dad

760
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: and where's a wire and tries to get him to

761
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 4: tell him, tell Paul where the body is, and Carl

762
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: wouldn't do it. And it's really a theme of who

763
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: Carl was to the very end of his life.

764
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 5: Never gave it up.

765
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 4: And it's something that certainly bothered this family in many

766
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 4: ways and for many people in that family that he

767
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 4: never did say what happened to Dolores's body, and even

768
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 4: Paul in that attempt in the jail, and obviously he

769
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 4: was released after that, and there were different legal proceedings,

770
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 4: like Kyle said, throughout the year of nineteen eighty five

771
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 4: that ended with the judge throwing out the case. So

772
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 4: that was an attempt. There were other attempts to try

773
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 4: to guide Carl to the body, you know, some that

774
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 4: were official, that unofficial, and he never gave it up.

775
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: I mean, even when he was dying, he never gave

776
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: up what really happened, which is something that is obviously

777
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 4: very frustrating for the others in the family.

778
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: So Kyle, tell me about that span from eighty five

779
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: until when we find out that Carl has died. There

780
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: is a I mean, I don't know how it was,

781
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: to say, a harassment campaign from Dolores's family aimed at

782
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: him that I found very disturbing, but I'm not sure

783
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: in a bad way disturbing. They were very creative, and

784
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, one of them said, I think it might

785
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: have been slick, might have said, we just made this

786
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: guy's live hell as much as we could. Can you

787
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about what happened in those

788
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: years when he's out free?

789
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it really started after as soon as she

790
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: went missing, right, it was as the police were investigating,

791
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: the family was kind of doing their own harassment campaign

792
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 2: to make his life as miserable as possible in and

793
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: around the town of Woodland. They would stop at nothing

794
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: to make his life again just miserable. If they found

795
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: out he was getting milk at the grocery store, they'd

796
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: show up and join him in the checkout and they

797
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: just kind of follow him around. They would, uh, you know,

798
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: they would leave dead animal carcasses on his on his

799
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: front lawn. They would write a murder in pig's blood

800
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: on his garage door, is like, or his driveway. They

801
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: put a bumper sticker on his car that said I

802
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 2: killed my wife.

803
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: And he didn't know he was driving around with this

804
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: bumper sticker that said I killed my wife.

805
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: Right a few weeks I guess, or something like that.

806
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 2: The way the voice the story has has been told,

807
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: I mean, there was you know, on street signs on

808
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: the on the long stretch of road to where Carl lived.

809
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: You know, this way to the murderer's house on different

810
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: signs on this kind of remote road. I mean, he

811
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: made it so he could not live in the town

812
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: of Woodland, and he did end up leaving Woodland to

813
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: a nearby you know, still was in the Sacramano area,

814
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: but it was just uninhabitable for him.

815
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: At that point. He became such a pariah in the

816
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 3: community because because.

817
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: Of what happened, and so that was something that they

818
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: were They were relentless. It was it was mostly Dolores's cousins.

819
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: Slick her brother was certain aware that some of this

820
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 2: was going on, but it was the cousins, like more

821
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: her younger cousins, people in their twenties and thirties, people

822
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 2: with you know, maybe a little bit more spare time

823
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: than everyone else, to to really go after him in

824
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: as many ways as they could.

825
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: Look.

826
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: I mean, we did this bonus episode with Tony Roche

827
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: where he laid out for us like they had a

828
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: plan to kill Carl Wolf, Like they were going to

829
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: torture Carl Wolf.

830
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: They were going to dig a hole.

831
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: Tony might even said that they did, like dig the

832
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: hole and it was ready for this plan.

833
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: They ultimately didn't.

834
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: Move forward with this because Slick decided that's not how

835
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: they wanted to proceed, kind of put his foot down

836
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: and said we're not going to do this, and they

837
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 2: acquiesced to his to his requests, I guess, but look,

838
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: they were all about it, and and this continued. The

839
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: harassment continued for years, even after Carl moved back to Minnesota,

840
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: after he was after the case was thrown out. You know,

841
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 2: they would call him at this remote farm and remote Minnesota,

842
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: you know, calling him just to let him know that

843
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: they were still thinking about him and that he should

844
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: be thinking about them.

845
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 3: So that that went on for you know, for a

846
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 3: very long time.

847
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: Carl Carlin's up follow in a lawsuit about this that

848
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: didn't go anyway anywhere. It's like two ndred million, two

849
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: hundred million dollar lawsuit that included, you know, a bunch

850
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: of the people we talked to with the podcast, law

851
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: enforcement family. Just about anyone who was involved in the

852
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 2: case in any way was was named as an offended.

853
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: It didn't make it very far in the in the courts,

854
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: but certainly was an interesting part of this whole story.

855
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 4: You know. And I just add the the a lot

856
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: of the harassment did happen immediately after the disappearance or

857
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: not immediately, but when they felt that the legal system

858
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 4: was not going to take this far enough and that

859
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: he was still living free, those relatives said, and you know,

860
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: Tony Roach says it on the podcast, we were going

861
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: to make his life a living hell.

862
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 5: And they did everything they could.

863
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 4: And the scene that I that I I tuckle about

864
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 4: a little bit is you know that one of the cousins,

865
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 4: Debbie Baker, who we spoke to in the in the podcast,

866
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 4: her mother, I believe, worked at a the like the

867
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 4: local hospital, and she was, you know, in the cafeteria

868
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 4: one time and there were just these people, you know,

869
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 4: sitting there saying, Hey, have you seen those signs on

870
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 4: route whatever that go out this way to the murderer's house,

871
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 4: Like those are wild and she's the mother's thinking to herself, Yeah,

872
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 4: I saw those signs that were being made on my

873
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 4: kitchen table by my daughter and other cousins because they

874
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 4: were gonna, you know, do whatever it took to really

875
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 4: make his life as miserable as possible.

876
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: And there were you had alluded to this, Kyle, there

877
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: was like an impromptu from the family sort of sting

878
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: operation that the investigators actually wanted to do also, and

879
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: they got a old family got a little crossways with Hilman.

880
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Hyleman had been working on this plan for

881
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 2: several weeks where they were going to ring his house.

882
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: It was going to be someone from the police or

883
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: the sheriff's apartment posing as a newspaper reporter saying that, hey,

884
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: like there's been a body discovered. They think it's Dolores.

885
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: Do you have comment or something to that effect. And

886
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: they had planes ready, or the play was they were

887
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: gonna have planes in the sky. They were gonna be

888
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 2: able to trail him overhead, so he didn't know anyone

889
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 2: was tailing them, and they were hopeful that he would

890
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: then drive to the site of the body just to

891
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 2: you know, get confirmation for his for himself that you know,

892
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: they had in fact found the body. But before the

893
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: police and the district Attorney coul launch their official sting operation,

894
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: the family went ahead and tried to do something similar

895
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 2: essentially the same plan minus the air support, I guess.

896
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: And so they you know, they they had someone who

897
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: called Carl and said, hey, a body's been found, and

898
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: their plan was they were just going to fallow him

899
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 2: in cars, which you know, of course, is much harder

900
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: to execute without being noticed, especially out in the country

901
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 2: when there's not a whole lot of of there's not

902
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: a whole lot of traffic out there. So he goes

903
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: out to his driveway and they're watching him from across

904
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: the street.

905
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: One of the cousins just.

906
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: Can't control herself and she goes to the driveway and

907
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: she starts, you know, screaming at him, cussing him out,

908
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 2: you know, talking about you, you know, you killed her

909
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: whatever it might have been, like this is proof was

910
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: that called you? Like now you're trying to check. So

911
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: she kind of blew the whole operation right away. Carl

912
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: ends up pulling a rifle on her. During this exchange.

913
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 2: This other cousin, Tony Roache, he has his own shotgun

914
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: that he's he brings to the table. He says, I'll

915
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: cut you in half if you take another step, something

916
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: to that effect. So it's this highly you know, combative

917
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: situation in front of his house. So what happened was

918
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: after the original one the police found out about it.

919
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: They're pissed because they still wanted to do their own plan,

920
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: and so the first one doesn't work. They had this

921
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: standoff in the driveway, and then Hyloman's like, well, shoot,

922
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: we'll still try to do our own plan and just

923
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: see what happens. And it's a disastery. It doesn't work.

924
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: They are able to see that he goes to a

925
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: liquor store, buys a bottle of booze, gets it, looks

926
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: at the newspaper stack, doesn't see anything about the Dolores case,

927
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: and kind of goes home. They sit outside his house

928
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: for the rest of the night and just kind of

929
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: monitor him to see what happens, and he doesn't leave again.

930
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: So it did the law enforcement, both the DA and

931
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: the sheriff spring really upset with the family that they

932
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: took that shot without the support of law enforcement.

933
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 4: Again, I think it just shows the overall efforts that

934
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: were made that and at times the crossing of wires

935
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 4: between the family, which was super motivated and the legal

936
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 4: system or the law enforcement group, which again they largely

937
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 4: felt was other.

938
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 5: Than Hylman, was not on their side.

939
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 4: And again this speaks, i think a little bit to

940
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 4: the time and place that there is a little bit

941
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 4: of a vigilante justice spirit in you know, rural Woodland,

942
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 4: California in nineteen seventy nine that Hey, if this DA

943
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 4: or the Woodland Police or the Yolo County Sheriffs are

944
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 4: not going to get an answer here, We're going to

945
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 4: do it ourselves. We're not just going to sit there.

946
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 4: And so again I think back to your earlier question,

947
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 4: why didn't they intervene earlier when she was alive? You

948
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 4: do really think that it was because of Dolores, because

949
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 4: you saw what they did after she disappeared. This family

950
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 4: certainly was not shy or timid about taking action, and

951
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 4: they showed that.

952
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, it was after Dolores disappeared.

953
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: So I'll stick with you, Adam. When does Coral die?

954
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: I wonder what the emotions were according to the family

955
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: and the kids from when that happens.

956
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: Right, So, as Kyle noted, you know, Carl did move

957
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 4: back to Minnesota to his childhood home. We did speak

958
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 4: with his brother, who you know is up there in

959
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 4: his early as our late eighties now just about you know,

960
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 4: having his brother home and how awful it was and

961
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 4: how he became this a real burden on his brother's life.

962
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 4: He let him live at the family farm for free,

963
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 4: and he was causing all sorts of problems. And then

964
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 4: he ends up, you know, leaving and oh, he stole

965
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 4: his parents money that they had set aside for their

966
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 4: for their burials, and you tried to sell farm equipment.

967
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 4: He just became a really troubled, awful person towards towards

968
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 4: the end of his life, you know. And and his

969
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 4: brother was very candid about, you know, what those years

970
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 4: were like. So he moves back to California. He ends

971
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 4: up reconnecting with Anna Marie in southern California, is around

972
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 4: her family for a bit, but then it ends up

973
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: kind of drifting away and living his final years as

974
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 4: a bit of a transient, was in with a weird crowd.

975
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 4: And then he dies in or he's dying in two

976
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 4: thousand and five, and as I mentioned earlier, never gave

977
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 4: it up, never admitted anything until the very end. There's

978
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 4: a scene where Tom Wolf and Anna Marie go down

979
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 4: to visit him and essentially tried to get a bedside

980
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: confession out of him at the very end, and he wouldn't,

981
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 4: he wouldn't say what happened.

982
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 5: He's kind of out of it.

983
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 4: So anyway, he dies in two thousand and five, and

984
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 4: he's he's buried back in Minnesota, there's no funeral, there's

985
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 4: no there's no nothing. It's a very He died alone,

986
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 4: no family around him.

987
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 5: And that was it.

988
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 4: Never having confessed or truly been held accountable for what

989
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 4: happened to Lauras.

990
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: So, Kyle, you you know you both have followed this case,

991
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: knowing what you know about Carl. Why do you think

992
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: he didn't give a deathbed confession? Who cares at that point?

993
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean, nothing's going to happen. Is this ego or

994
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: narciss what would it be?

995
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think at the end, the way it

996
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: was explained by Tom and Anne Marie is that he

997
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: was just kind of mentally out of it at the

998
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: end when they did go for it, So they were

999
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 2: I think the plan was that they were going to

1000
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: go for the bedside confession and then he was just

1001
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: so out of sorts that I don't even know if

1002
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,479
Speaker 2: it went that far. But I think that the point

1003
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: is still like why never give it up at the end.

1004
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: If you had the chance to kind of clear your

1005
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: consciousness at the end, provide some closure for your kids,

1006
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: like do one thing at the end to kind of

1007
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: help them process what happened to their mother. He never

1008
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: did that, and I just kind of it speaks to

1009
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 2: who he was as a person. There was a stubbornness

1010
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: that all his kids talked about and that he was

1011
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 2: never going to admit it. And a part of part

1012
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: of the deal is that, look, it's there's no if

1013
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: you confess a murder, even later in life, you still

1014
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: have you can be convicted for that, right, So I

1015
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: think there was part of That's what Carly thinks. He's like, look,

1016
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: there's no statue limitations on murder, and so if you do,

1017
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: even if you're you know, seventy five years old, and

1018
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: admit to it, then you could face face face prison time.

1019
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: So like that's the kind of the very straightforward explanation

1020
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: for why not. But yeah, at the end, he was

1021
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: just so mentally kind of incapacitated that it was anything

1022
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: he was saying at that time was almost gibberish from

1023
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: what Tom and Anna Marie said.

1024
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: So, Adam, I think you said you did talk to

1025
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: the original DA right. What I'm wondering is, was there

1026
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: ever an assessment from somebody trying cases now or is

1027
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: there is there anybody who will say they should have

1028
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: done this in seventy nine They would have likely gotten

1029
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: a conviction based on the evidence, not today evidence, but

1030
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: you know that evidence of blood evidence.

1031
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 4: Well, it was really interesting to talk to Rick Gilbert,

1032
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 4: who was that original da you know again, you know,

1033
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 4: was was waiting for a body, was waiting for a

1034
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 4: little bit more in order to.

1035
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 5: Get that case over the line.

1036
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 4: And what's ironic and unfortunate about this is that because

1037
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 4: there was such a long wait, you got to a

1038
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 4: point where a judge ended up ruling that Carl Wolf's

1039
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 4: right to a speedy trial had been violated, even though

1040
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 4: he'd already said it was a weaker case. But Rick

1041
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 4: Gilbert told us that, you know, everything that he knows now,

1042
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 4: he did wish he tried the case and gave it

1043
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 4: a shot. He just knew without a body, even though

1044
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 4: there was all the circumstantial evidence, the all the anecdotal

1045
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 4: evidence that they had one shot and if they were unsuccessful,

1046
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: you know, Carl would walk free. You know, it's interesting,

1047
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 4: everything's in hindsight. But the family, especially a guy like

1048
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 4: Tony Roache, who had some strong feelings about Rick Gilbert,

1049
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: didn't love that we talked to him or even had

1050
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 4: his voice in the podcast. Told us that hey, if

1051
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 4: they had tried and failed, he would have forgiven the

1052
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 4: DA and law enforcement. But the fact that they never

1053
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,959
Speaker 4: even tried is the part that you know again makes

1054
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 4: him still very very upset with the whole situation.

1055
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: And one thing I had thought about is, OK, what

1056
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: if they do find her body, which I know we're

1057
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: going to get to in a second, ultimately they do.

1058
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: What if they did find her body, would there be

1059
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: anything on the body that would definitively link him to

1060
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: her murder anyway? Because he could have said, somebody broken

1061
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 1: or she wandered off or whatever. I don't know who

1062
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: killed her. Like, I just wonder if the body would

1063
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: have actually been helpful in nineteen seventy nine, whereas now

1064
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, we would have DNA evidence most likely that

1065
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: connect Caral to Dolores.

1066
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think we'll get into how she was

1067
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 2: found in all of that, but the condition of the

1068
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 2: body ends up not being very helpful.

1069
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 3: Right.

1070
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 2: So we did ask a present day detective, the man

1071
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: who was ultimately responsible for piecing this altogether, about how

1072
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: triable the case would have been with the body given

1073
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: its condition at the end, and it had maybe we

1074
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: can just get into it now. The body was found

1075
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: in the San Francisco Bay buy some sail boaters. It

1076
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: had been decomposing for about five weeks, and so at

1077
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: that point there's not a lot to work with. Right,

1078
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: the head was no longer attached to the body was

1079
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: kind of cut off in mid torso there was no hands,

1080
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: so there's no debt records, there's no face to make

1081
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: a visual comparison, there is no fingerprints, Like all of

1082
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 2: the traditional ways you would make an identification, those weren't possible,

1083
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: so it would have had to have been piecemeal based

1084
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: on what else was there. So the autopsy at the

1085
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 2: time did determine that it was a mother of at

1086
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: least two. They were able to determine that this the

1087
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 2: condition of the body. There were markers that she indicated

1088
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: she had given birth at least twice, that she was

1089
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 2: about five foot five, that she had dark hair, that

1090
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: she was probably in her forties. So like all of

1091
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: that is doloresible, Like those are all indicators of this.

1092
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: She fits that profile.

1093
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: But again, like what's the bar in nineteen seventy nine

1094
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 2: for making a definitive comparison, Even when we asked Ron

1095
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 2: Heilman after the fact, if this was the body, if

1096
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 2: you had the body in this condition. Would you have

1097
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: been able to one hundred percent prove that it was her?

1098
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 2: He said no, it wasn't one hundred percent, but he

1099
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 2: was confident that they would have been able to do enough.

1100
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 3: So there is some gray area there.

1101
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 2: Sure would have been helpful, I think if they would

1102
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: have located the body and so like, just for time reference,

1103
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: I think it was forty three days after Dolores is

1104
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 2: missing is when they found the body. It was in

1105
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: a county right next door, which is really problematic. Now

1106
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 2: were troubling now, I should say in that you know,

1107
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: Solano County and Yolo County weren't able to make the

1108
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: connection together that hey, this woman goes missing and five

1109
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: weeks later a neighboring county finds a body that fits

1110
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: the profile like it. Certainly, they certainly should have alerted

1111
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 2: the neighboring county about this discovery of this body, especially

1112
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: when they didn't have like it was a Jane Doe

1113
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: and she was buried as a jain do they They

1114
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 2: had no idea who it was, and so that breakdown

1115
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 2: in communication is tough to understand. The there's no record

1116
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: of any communication between Yolo County and Solano County. But

1117
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: also there's not a lot of record of any communication

1118
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: on anything at that time. The case file, unfortunately was

1119
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: purged probably in the nineties for from Benetia, the town

1120
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: where she was found, and so a lot of the

1121
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 2: logistics of how it the original investigation played out what

1122
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: we weren't able to really piece that together. But you

1123
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: certainly think that if you were able to look at look,

1124
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: she had these wooden shoes, that maybe hey, maybe someone

1125
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: would have been able to say, hey, those are her shoes.

1126
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 2: There's she's wearing these floral floral underwear. Maybe like someone

1127
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: would have been able to say, yeah, those are my mom.

1128
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: Like maybe Anna Marie would be able to say, yeah,

1129
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: those are my mom. You know, like there's there's enough.

1130
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: There was enough there that you would have been able

1131
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: to kind of unspool those threads to try to help

1132
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 2: make the identification, but it wouldn't have been definitive. And

1133
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: I guess the other the other kind of the final

1134
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 2: piece to that is, you know, DNA technology wasn't available

1135
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 2: yet broadly, but it was available a few years later.

1136
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 3: Right, they could have gone back in.

1137
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: The early nineties or whenever and and then done a

1138
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: DNA analysis and been able to make the determination at

1139
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,439
Speaker 2: that point, because that's ultimately what happened. They were able

1140
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 2: to make a DNA match with Paul and this Jane

1141
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: Doe sixteen back in twenty twenty, and that's ultimately how

1142
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: they were able to identify Dlorus Wolf's remains.

1143
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: And Adam, this was partially brought on because of a

1144
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 1: woman who was trying to investigate the Golden State Killer victims. Right,

1145
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: So she was searching through NamUs and saw this, right,

1146
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 1: Jane Doe sixteen, And tell me a little bit about

1147
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: that story, because it was not just something random that happened.

1148
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: This was somebody who was working towards, you know, trying

1149
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: to find victims from a different serial killer.

1150
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 4: Right. So you know, after everything that happens in the eighties,

1151
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 4: and you know, the case goes cold essentially until the

1152
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 4: late twenty tens, when obviously a lot has changed and

1153
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 4: there is a lot more information online and there all

1154
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 4: are these Internet detectives that are out there, and there

1155
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 4: is a group like the Dough Network, which we get into.

1156
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 4: And so Stacy Sherman, who's a woman who lives in Sacramento,

1157
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 4: was looking into the Golden state killer, and she had

1158
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 4: kind of a personal connection to that case, and and

1159
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 4: and was able to come across you know, the the

1160
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 4: missing person and then trying to figure out where where

1161
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 4: that who that could have been, and and submitted that

1162
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 4: as a match. And it's a little bit convoluted, but

1163
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 4: eventually some of that work did get onto the desk

1164
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 4: of Kenny Hard and Venetia, which truly got the ball

1165
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 4: rolling as far as the as far as his investigation,

1166
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 4: that ultimately led to well who was this, who was

1167
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 4: this Jane Doe?

1168
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 5: Who could she have been?

1169
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 4: And you know, as he as he mentioned, he connected

1170
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 4: the dots, you know somewhat quickly that Dolores was a

1171
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 4: potential match for that body.

1172
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 2: Let me just build off that for a second, because

1173
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting to note that, like there was

1174
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 2: the balls were dropped along the way originally, but balls

1175
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 2: were dropped again in later years. Stacey Sherman did positively

1176
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: make the connection between Dolores Wolf and Jane do sixteen.

1177
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: But when she submitted that, or she admitted submitted to

1178
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: the Dough network. When the Dough Network submitted that potential

1179
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 2: match to law enforcement, it didn't go anywhere. The law

1180
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 2: enforcement agencies did not take that tip and work off

1181
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: of it. When it finally went to Kenny Hart, it

1182
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 2: was because another potential match was submitted to the Dough Network,

1183
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: and this wasn't even a correct one. It was someone

1184
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: It was another member of the Dough Network. Theorized that

1185
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: Jane Doe sixteen, who we now know was Dolores, was

1186
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: a woman who went missing in Modesto about ninety minutes

1187
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: away in that same period of time. And so the

1188
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: match that was submitted by the Dough Network is that

1189
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,919
Speaker 2: the second for the second time was that Jane Doe

1190
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: sixteen was actually Patty Tolliver. That's how it lands on

1191
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: the desk of Kenny Hart. The benishe detective, He's able

1192
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: to make the determination. Yeah, like he did investigate the

1193
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: lead turned out that, you know, he was able to

1194
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 2: prove that it was incorrect, but then he just kept going,

1195
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 2: like once it got on his desk, he was like

1196
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 2: a dog with the bone.

1197
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 3: He wasn't gonna let it go. And then he was.

1198
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: Able to kind of weave down the path and make

1199
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: the same kind of conclusion that Stacy Sherman did that

1200
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 2: this this is a good match for Dolores Wolf and

1201
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 2: then he you know, obviously then has the power to

1202
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: exhume the body and do a DNA match and all

1203
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: of those things. Kind of a fun aside, maybe not fun,

1204
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: but like an interesting one for sure, is that there

1205
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 2: was another skull buried with Jane Doe sixteen for many

1206
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: of those years, and it turned out that the skull

1207
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: that was buried in the tomb I guess with Dolores

1208
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: with someone else.

1209
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 3: And Kenny actually solved that case too.

1210
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 2: It was someone else who went missing a few years later,

1211
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: that that case was never solved, and it turns out

1212
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 2: he threw the you know, kind of working off one

1213
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: tip from the dough network, Kenny solves these two unsolved

1214
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 2: cases that were you know, both about four decades old.

1215
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: I have to assume the other one did not result

1216
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: in an arrest or anything like that.

1217
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 3: That one is actually believed to be a suicide.

1218
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: And so it's it's it's a different story, right, it's

1219
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: you know, the family wasn't.

1220
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 3: It wasn't something they had been chasing for a long time.

1221
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 3: They weren't. You know.

1222
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: It's interesting Kenny now has this very close relationship with

1223
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: the Wolf and Roach of families and the other case

1224
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 2: that he solved. You know, it didn't really impact that

1225
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: family in the same way.

1226
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: Tell me about the reaction from the family, including Paul,

1227
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: who's now a you know, college football coach at this

1228
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: point and well known. What is the reaction And I

1229
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: know that also Slick had a reaction to and you know,

1230
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: finding out about you know, Dolores.

1231
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 4: Right well, you know, certainly Paul was a surprise, but

1232
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 4: not as big as surprise as the others because you know,

1233
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 4: his DNA had been collected.

1234
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 5: He knew this was a possibility.

1235
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 4: But still, you're getting that call from Kenny is a

1236
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 4: moment that you know, neither of them will ever forget.

1237
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 4: And I think for Paul he was just you know,

1238
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 4: kind of the breath comes out of you. You're you're

1239
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 4: just stunned that this is a reality. This is where

1240
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 4: my mom is, this is where she's been all these years.

1241
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 4: And then the notifications begin, and you know, Kenny really

1242
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that Paul was able to notify

1243
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 4: as many people as he could before it got out

1244
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 4: there publicly in the media and so forth, because this

1245
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 4: is obviously a big, a big discovery for the Benetia

1246
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 4: Police Department. And so yeah, I think Paul especially wanted

1247
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 4: to get to Slick. I mean, Slick was how old

1248
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 4: he did Kyle eighty two maybe at that time, and

1249
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 4: wasn't in the best of health, can't really hear. So

1250
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 4: he wanted to go to his home and explain that Dolores,

1251
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 4: after all these years, had been discovered. So he did

1252
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 4: that in person and then notified other family. But you know,

1253
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 4: the reactions really span from you know, kind of just

1254
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 4: shock and to anger, to excitement and all the different

1255
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 4: emotions because no one ever thought this was possible. No

1256
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 4: one thought that after all the decades and Carl Wolf

1257
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 4: Senior dying and no new evidence coming forward, that this

1258
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 4: case would ever be solved, and that Dolores could ever

1259
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 4: have a burial and some type of celebration of her life,

1260
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 4: which obviously occurred in twenty twenty one. So it was

1261
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 4: really fascinating to hear Anna's reaction as opposed to Tony Roaches

1262
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 4: or Janet, Doris's sister in law. So many people this

1263
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 4: case impacted, and they all reacted a little bit differently.

1264
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: Ultimately, what do they think happened?

1265
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: Does?

1266
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 1: Can you have a theory? Who has a theory? Since

1267
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: she ended up in the Bay. She's not buried somewhere.

1268
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 4: I think that the belief was that Carl knew some

1269
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 4: of the areas on the very eastern part of the

1270
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 4: Bay area. So when people think of the Bay area,

1271
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 4: they think of like the Golden Gate Bridge and Alcatraz

1272
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 4: and these central San Francisco Bay, But the Bay itself

1273
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 4: goes quite a bit eastward. You'll past even Benetia, you

1274
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 4: almost all the way to Sacramento, not quite there, but

1275
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: in the these marshy areas, you know, areas where people hunt.

1276
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 5: It would be very easy if you knew where.

1277
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 4: Those were, to drive south from Woodland and dump a

1278
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 4: body in that part of the bay in the middle

1279
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 4: of the night when no one was around. Now there

1280
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 4: are some slightly varying theories.

1281
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: You know.

1282
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 4: Janet Wheaton believes that the body was discovered without a

1283
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 4: head attached. She believes that Carl removed her head. I mean,

1284
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 4: that's pretty extreme. Other people just believe that he dumped

1285
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 4: the body, you know, from the back of the car

1286
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 4: where again the blood was, where the finger marks, where

1287
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 4: the fingerprints were, and just dumped it there. And things

1288
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 4: happened in forty to three days, and the boats are

1289
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,479
Speaker 4: going by and all sorts of things, and the body

1290
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 4: obviously floats near Benetia, so that was generally what people

1291
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 4: said is that he knew that part of the bay

1292
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 4: next to the bay and could get there and could

1293
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 4: dump her body.

1294
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: So, Kyle, what do you think ultimately about all of this?

1295
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: You know, what does this story tell you about the

1296
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: power of family? But also this man who totally up

1297
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: until the end essentially had control over the narrative of

1298
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: his wife and her disappearance and ultimately murder.

1299
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think as much as this is it's

1300
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 2: very much a true crime story, but it is certainly

1301
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: a story about family, family resilience and the bonds that

1302
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 2: last over time. Right, Like how traumatic events can be,

1303
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, both traumatic but also bring a group of

1304
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 2: people together in a strange way, Right, Like, they went

1305
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: through this together. They always had each other's back, the

1306
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 2: roaches and the wolves in this case, and they always

1307
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 2: had this event that bonded them for the next four decades.

1308
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 2: And so to kind of always have that kind of

1309
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: lingering in their lives was something that was really powerful

1310
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: for all of them. And so for them, none of

1311
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 2: them ever thought they would get closure, and so for

1312
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 2: them to be able to experience what they did together,

1313
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 2: go through the next forty years kind of always wondering,

1314
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 2: and then be able to kind of celebrate her at

1315
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: the end. They did have a celebration of life, an

1316
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: event that they never thought they would have.

1317
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 3: It was really powerful. Adam and I were both there.

1318
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: We got to kind of interact with some of the

1319
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,479
Speaker 2: family members and kind of see how meaningful that.

1320
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 3: Was for them.

1321
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: I think in the end they were able to think

1322
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: about her more positively and not be so hung up

1323
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 2: on kind of what happened, because while the details will

1324
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 2: still never be known, that she does have a final

1325
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 2: resting place, it is with her parents, it is with

1326
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 2: her brother that matters. For these people, they're able to

1327
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 2: kind of honor her in whatever way they like moving forward.

1328
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 2: No Cemeteries don't appeal to everyone, but if for those

1329
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 2: that do like to go visit them, they have that

1330
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 2: outlet to be able to kind of share their memories

1331
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: their mother or their cousin or whatever the relationship might be.

1332
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 2: And then as far as Carl's concerned, yeah, I think

1333
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: his son Paul says it really well in the podcast

1334
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 2: just talking about.

1335
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 3: And Adam mentioned it earlier.

1336
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: It just shows how a person can change over time,

1337
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 2: and it makes you wonder, like, why would you do this?

1338
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: On a very basic level, right there are you can

1339
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 2: kind of hey, the motivation, the relationship was failing, and

1340
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 2: all those things. But he ruined not only her life, obviously,

1341
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 2: but he ruined his kids lives for many years, like

1342
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: that event shaped the rest of their existence, right. It

1343
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 2: sent his life spiraling down a path that he was

1344
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 2: never able to really recover from. He didn't lead a

1345
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 2: meaningful life from that point forward. It forever shaped who

1346
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 2: he was and the type of life he had to live.

1347
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 2: And so all of those things make it so hard

1348
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 2: to comprehend why, right, And I think that's for me

1349
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 2: as always kind of what I think about is like,

1350
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 2: like why would he do this?

1351
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 3: Why?

1352
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,439
Speaker 2: It kind of speaks to how the human mind. It's

1353
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 2: just so hard to understand, right. There's not a logical

1354
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 2: explanation for the way things played out, but they happened

1355
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: in that's life and that's reality.

1356
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 3: And I think you.

1357
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 2: Try to learn from them if you're us, if you're

1358
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 2: Adam and I are trying to like, here's the story

1359
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 2: about how these people dealt with it. It's it's fascinating

1360
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 2: all the twists and turns and all of those things,

1361
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 2: but on a human level, it's it's fascinating to see

1362
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 2: how different people coped and reacted to such a difficult

1363
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 2: event and how it kind of stayed with them for

1364
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 2: the next forty to fifty years.

1365
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's really well put.

1366
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 4: And I mean you're trying to get inside the psyche

1367
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 4: of Carl we if we didn't get into this as much,

1368
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 4: but essentially grew up in like Depression era rural Minnesota

1369
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 4: with no money, like no money, and his brother Dick

1370
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 4: talks about that in the podcast. Was clearly an ambitious guy.

1371
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 4: Was a guy who was a promising football player, and

1372
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 4: then he suffers this eye accident while hunting, you know,

1373
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 4: that derailed his football career, goes to California, has all

1374
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 4: these ambitions that starts all these businesses, wants to be

1375
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 4: a mover and shaker, you know, in the town of Woodland,

1376
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 4: and because of maybe some of his inner demons, those

1377
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 4: things don't work out. Had a very odd relationship with women,

1378
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 4: you know, that was one thing that occurred that serviced

1379
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 4: in our reporting. Always had girlfriends, but also was accused

1380
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 4: of harassment at one job. But again always found women,

1381
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 4: you know, and you could even put Anna Marie in

1382
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 4: that conversation to sort of manipulate and take advantage of

1383
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 4: throughout his life. So you know, again we obviously never

1384
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 4: interviewed him, but it was talking to enough people that

1385
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 4: knew him was a very complex and you know, kind

1386
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 4: of sad character honestly, But again, I think the power

1387
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 4: of family and the fact that this family just would

1388
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 4: never give up even when they had every reason to.

1389
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 4: And then, you know, fortunately because of some developments and

1390
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 4: technology and where we're at with enough people that are

1391
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 4: interested in true crime and trying to solve these cases,

1392
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 4: they were given an answer that they thought would never

1393
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 4: come to them in twenty twenty.

1394
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1395
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The

1396
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1397
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1398
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1399
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1400
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1401
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1402
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1403
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark,

1404
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

1405
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

1406
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime

1407
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold

1408
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 1: more Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com.

1409
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words